Mini 508- Trouble in New Catania-Game Over

[Rishi]

Ah, the majesty that is the random voting stage...

Vote: LoudmouthLee

[Rishi]

unvote
vote: Streeflo

cause he is surely not a paranoid cop lol...

Huh? Am I the only one who is confused?

[Rishi]

Oh. Okay. The fact that you unvoted to vote for Streeflo seemed odd. If you wanted to make a reference to a previous game, I would think you'd scan the player list, find his name, and then make the reference.

By unvoting, you made it sound like your vote was a reaction to his post. I apologize for the confusion.

[Rishi]

This, to me, seems incredibly odd and out of sorts. Almost too polite. It seems forced. Faked. It reminds me of the Mafia Buddying Up Technique.

There's nothing wrong with the a little civility once in a while.

Your post doesn't sound forced? How many different ways do you have to mention that my post sounded a little bit off?

I agree that it sounds like you're trying to make a case out of thin air. Fortunately, my random vote is already on you. I see no reason to remove it for now.

[Rishi]

Honestly, I don't think the case on LML is that strong. But it's the most suspicious behavior I've seen so far. So, for now, my vote stands.

Why are you sad about the random stage ending, Streeflo? Just curious... I hate the random stage. I realize that it's generally necessary, but it's not fun to play.

[Rishi]

Why are you sad about the random stage ending, Streeflo? Just curious... I hate the random stage. I realize that it's generally necessary, but it's not fun to play.

I don't know, I think it's more fun than Day 1 as a whole. The juicy mid and end game are the best of course =D

Maybe you like the random stage because it doesn't require thought?

I admit that Day 1 in general isn't much fun. You get a lot of information from it though.

[Rishi]

I think this is the most dynamic game I have been to so far. In three pages we had accusations on Me, LML, Rishi, Lowell and Someone2 flying around (a few more ones maybe, but these seem to be the most important ones).

Except for the suspicions on LML, all of those accusations have come from LML (maybe not originated with him, but he's certainly found all those people suspicious). I haven't played with him before (except in one game where he was killed during Night 0), so maybe he's always throwing around suspicions.

Anyway, something to keep an eye on.

[Rishi]

Fonz

- Can we get a vote count please?

[Rishi]

Ack. I hate to make another post that doesn't say anything, but I have nothing to say. I seriously doubt that anyone has found, beyond a doubt, who the scum are.

I agree with kuribo though that Lowell is being uncooperative, and there is no reason for a protown player to act like that. But, on the other hand, he hasn't said THAT much, so it's hard to really get a read on him.

LML seems a little more pro-town lately. I see no reason to keep my vote there, but I'm not fully convinced of Lowell's guilt. So,

Unvote

for now. No new vote just yet.

Fonz

- Are we still deadlined?

[Rishi]

Wow. I had no idea that Lowell was so close to a lynch.

[Rishi]

I can only speak for myself, HS, but would it be a lot to ask for for you to use bold a little more sparingly? I have a hard time reading your posts, as the boldness detracts from my line of sight.

QFT.

[Rishi]

I think that Lowell's actions were marginally scummy. I think, knowing that he was about to be lynched, he made some kind of effort, posting his analysis of the game. The main argument against him was that he wasn't being helpful. So he actually tried to be helpful.

His attitude is a little flippant. The "now unvote me" comment almost made me want to drop the hammer. But, even if we don't like his reasoning or tone, he did make more of an effort to participate. So, I think it's too soon for a lynch.

[Rishi]

You know, LML just jumped back into the spotlight for me. I know I was suspicious of him early on. Then he started acting more town-ish, but now he's very single-mindedly trying to push for a Lowell lynch.

I'm putting my vote back.

Vote: LML

Fonz

- Vote count, please?

[Rishi]

@Rishi, you don't think that Lowell's votehopping is suspect? I'm making a case. I think it's a good one.

I won't say that the vote-hopping isn't suspicious, but you have been vote-hopping a heck of a lot more than Lowell.

[Rishi]

Lowell, my vote remains on you for the reason that I imagine five other votes currently rest on you--- you're the prime scum suspect. I will not remove a good-faith vote against someone I believe to be scum. Even now your behavior is scummy- You're trying to misdirect the town away from you to give yourself some breathing room. .

Lowell is scum because he is trying to avoid being lynched? Great logic there.

[Rishi]

Okay. At first, I was going to jump to someone2's defense, saying that he's new and it could have been an honest mistake. Looking back over his games played, he has played in a game with Three Mafia before. I still think the slip might have been honest, but he is defending himself badly.

Vote: someone2

[Rishi]

Well, I think I will have to explain it in English because it looks like you do not understand English. I made a simple mistake of meaning in the word left, that in my inexperience of English, I had forgotten that he had two meanings, or left in the direction remains, and left in the direction party. I used that word in the sense party, and you understood in the sense remains. So I apologize for the confusion.

Mod note: It translates francais as ENGLISH? How shit a piece of software is that?

This is what someone2 said. I doubt it's the perfect translation, but I think I get the gist.

Unvote

[Rishi]

*bump*

[Rishi]

No one likes my LML vote. Sad.

[Rishi]

Huh? That was weird Lowell its almost like you want to have a vote on a particular person all the time. Just because no one else was voting for Rishi's suspect doesnt always mean you have to jump on just to please them.

FOS:Lowell

Yeah. That was so obviously scummy. I'm starting to think... Jester?

I don't think it's unheard of in a Mini Normal.

[Rishi]

Huh? That was weird Lowell its almost like you want to have a vote on a particular person all the time. Just because no one else was voting for Rishi's suspect doesnt always mean you have to jump on just to please them.

FOS:Lowell

Yeah. That was so obviously scummy. I'm starting to think... Jester?

I don't think it's unheard of in a Mini Normal.

Never mind. He can't be a Jester or he would have hammered himself earlier.

But, yeah, I don't like how he just switched his vote looking for a lynch.

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

[Rishi]

I don't think vote-hopping is suspicious, in and of itself. It's just the way that this was done.

[Rishi]

Hi Ibby.

[Rishi]

I actually agree, Lowell.

Unvote

I still find you the most scummy, but more discussion would be useful.

[Rishi]

I usually find it tough to take sides and give interesting opinions on the first day of a game. But I will attempt a re-read in the next couple days and post my thoughts.

[Rishi]

The only way to explain my behavior is with the truth, which may not help. My play isn't scummy - it is lazy. I tend to check the site several times a day and it's really easy to just read the last few posts and post a 1-2 sentence response to what I have read. A lot of times when I shouldn't say anything at all, I write something impulsive. You can see that from the Jester comment, which I retracted a few minutes later. (Of course, the retraction doesn't look like one, because the Jester post was the last post on page 8 and the retraction was the first post on page 9.)

CTD is right - I am treading water, but this game is treading water. I don't like how several players are statically keeping their votes on Lowell without any attempt to build a further case against him.

A few interesting things from my re-read -

1. I've noticed that kuribo tends to follow other people. He almost never originates suspicion on anyone, but takes someone else's suspicion, hides it behind a lot of words, and makes it look like his own. He has been freely accusing people while keeping his vote on Lowell for quite a while. Also, notice how kuribo has not made any accusatory comments about me all game and then, suddenly after Ibby and CTD say they are suspicious, he suddenly wants me to explain my behavior.

2. People are criticizing me for thinking (even for a moment) that Lowell wanted to be lynched. Well, Happiest Sadist made this observation on Page 4 (and didn't take it back), but he got off scott free.

3. The defense of LML is mostly coming from people who I assume have played with him before. I haven't (other than in Ibby's game, where he was killed Night 0). You can't expect me to realize that it's his "playstyle" if I have never played with him. I don't have the time nor inclination to do a metagame reading on everyone in the game. Sure, he hasn't vote-hopped lately, but the Lowell bandwagon is still the most likely to lead to a lynch. I don't like the "playstyle" defense because, at best, it is a null-tell. It does not mean that he is pro-town. Until you know his alignment, I don't see why I am getting so much flak for simply being suspicious of him.

4. Did you all know that Beastly and rite are still active players in this game? News to me!

[Rishi]

I'll say it too. This day could use a deadline.

[Rishi]

I see you posted in the replacement thread that a deadline will be imposed two weeks from the date you find a replacement. That seems fair to me.

I am souring a little on the Lowell bandwagon.

However, my main concern about keeping him around is that he's always going to be on the chopping block. Even if we don't lynch him today, I could easily see a Lowell lynch on Day 2 or 3. No, I'm not trying to set that up, but I'm just pointing out a pitfall to keeping him around.

Also, if he sticks around and turns out to be scum, we're all going to feel mighty stupid that we didn't lynch him on Day 1.

[Rishi]

Setael has tried to get me lynched in every game I've been in with her. This worries me.

[Rishi]

Setael -- I can see why the "lurking in plain sight" trick throws off your scumdar. For Post 97, the only thing I wanted to do was Unvote on LML. I thought it would be lame to just put up a post with an "Unvote" and not much else, so I generated non-content. I think you'll also see, in most of my games, when I put up a post like that, it's usually after a few days of inactivity from me. Basically, what I try to get across in my non-posts is, "Hi, I'm here. I'm still reading. I have nothing to add. Don't prod me."

I'm curious about something.

Lowell -- What do you think of the someone2 wagon?

[Rishi]

I'm inclined to believe Setael. I don't see why she would lie about something like that, since it would be easy information to verify just by finding someone who speaks French.

[Rishi]

I agree with this more or less the slip whether it was accidental or natural has to be taken down and accounted for and it isnt the only thing hes done but then there is also a possiblity that there is a language barrier that could of led to him actually meaning something else. The "slip" should not be ignored completely but on that alone shouldnt be used as a sole reason to lynch him.

And *I* get criticized for having nothing to add? This is the most wishy-washy thing I have ever read. Ever.

[Rishi]

I have no idea what to say. I am not convinced that Lowell or someone2 is scum and I don't feel like I have enough information on Happiest Sadist for a vote. I was hoping he would say something in his defense so I could gauge the reaction.

What happened to rite?

[Rishi]

I know I haven't been saying much, however there isn't much to say. I wasn't going to even respond when only Lowell was voting for me because there was no argument to answer, and he would probably have changed his vote in a short while anyway. Now, as to the charges that I said nothing new, I admit that I haven't.

I have been arguing against Lowell because he is suspicious, and he is, whoever waid it first.

As to the last comment, I wanted to say that now, before it could be seen as defending or attacking someone. By stating it now as theory, I hope to head off some bad arguments on day 2. It is WIFOM reasoning, but because of WIFOM reasoning, it does not seem to me that who voted to lynch a player on day 1 is a strong indicator of who is scum under these circumstances. Someone2's post could be read to imply that we would find the scum on the 'lynch Lowell' side if Lowell is town and the 'don't lynch Lowell' side if he isn't.

You have two votes and you still think there is nothing to say? I agree this game has been moving slowly, but I wouldn't say there's NO information.

The basic points against you is that you don't take a stance on anything. And now, you're just simply re-iterating points other people have made. In fact, with Lowell, you're not even disguising that you're just taking someone else's argument.

Then, you revert back into Mafia theory.

I think what I would like to see is you making a fresh argument against Lowell. Justify why your vote is still on there. Even if it feels like you're repeating yourself, go through the motions.

Vote: Happiest Sadist

[Rishi]

I think a deadline is good. We need to move the game forward. But we need to DO SOMETHING.

Lowell - You are vote hopping a lot, but I generally agree that most of the people you've been voting for actually have done suspicious things.

But you say, "There are plenty of good lynch choices for today." How about a list? I don't like how you're keeping your options open to jump on ANY bandwagon. Why not start a case against someone?

[Rishi]

Yeah. I find it somewhat hypocritical that Lowell is complaining about people wanting to lynch him due to inertia, and yet he's not helping move the game forward.

However,

Unvote

. I don't think HS is the right lynch for today.

[Rishi]

See, this is why I wanted Lowell to do some work and post a list of suspicious people. He is entirely leaving his options open to vote whoever he wants, whenever he wants.

I did a quick meta-read on Lowell and noticed that he has posted lists of suspects in other games.

Lowell is uncooperative. That's not as bad as being a lurker, but lurking is not necessarily an indication of alignment. There are lots of reasons (mostly real world reasons) why someone might lurk, while there are fewer reasons why a present player would continue to be unhelpful.

Vote: Lowell

[Rishi]

*bump*

Deadline tomorrow.

[Rishi]

Well, it looks like the lynch is going to be random. Even if Lowell isn't helpful, at least he's present. On the other hand, someone2 floats in and out.

Also, No Lynch is bad for the town. As per the rules of this game, we need seven votes to lynch.

Unvote, Vote: someone2

[Rishi]

I wasn't happy that the day ended without a lynch, but let's not be hasty. We have a month.

[Rishi]

Also, HS is no longer in the game. Vaughn is the new HS.

[Rishi]

@Rishi - There's no reason to wait a whole month, let's continue with the end of day 1. Namely the people who voted for someone2 and their reasons why. Although I'm all for a someone2 lynch, the speed of his wagon seemed far too quick. Perhaps town snapped to their senses.. or perhaps there's something more to it.

The main purpose of my vote was to lynch someone (not to be confused with "someone2"). No Lynch, I think, is generally bad for the town, because it gives us little information. That was my motivation.

[Rishi]

Well, it looks like the lynch is going to be random. Even if Lowell isn't helpful, at least he's present. On the other hand, someone2 floats in and out.

Also, No Lynch is bad for the town. As per the rules of this game, we need seven votes to lynch.

Unvote, Vote: someone2

I have no idea why I am sticking out my next for him, but to back up someone2, I do find other people scummier in this game. I was trying to avoid a No Lynch.

[Rishi]

I'm not sure how you get "someone2 is town" from "I do find other people scummier in this game." I am unsure about someone2's alignment. Knowing it would clarify many things in this game.

[Rishi]

11 people.

How could you forget about Ibby's death? Why must you say such hurtful things?

[Rishi]

Huh, whats with the self vote? Explain.

I think it was a bad joke. Self-voting never really proves anything.

[Rishi]

Anyone having fun? I'm not against abandoning this game.

[Rishi]

No, don't do that. If everyone else wants to play, I'll play too.

But it's hard to care when the players and mod are putting very little effort into the game.

[Rishi]

*raises hand*

[Rishi]

Vote count please?

[Rishi]

*bump*

How's that vote count coming?

[Rishi]

Thanks for the vote count, Thok.

To generate some discussion, I'm going to place a blatant OMGUS/bandwagon vote.

Vote: kuribo

[Rishi]

Unvote

I think it's a little hypocritical to criticize kuribo for claiming early, considering that I do it all the time.

[Rishi]

What happened to Lowell?

[Rishi]

Vote: Vaughn

I don't know if I agree with a kuribo lynch. Just jumping on the counter-wagon since the deadline is coming up.

[Rishi]

I just don't want the day to end without a lynch. This is ridiculous.

Lynch me, if you need someone to lynch.

[Rishi]

There's no time to scumhunt. This is the time to vote. We don't want the day to end without a lynch.

If you want to lynch me, go ahead. But I'm not going to be cooperative until more people starting participating and voting.

[Rishi]

I can verify Kuribo's claim by telling him to "watch" me. Other than that, My role is a tad unorthodox but other than confirming a tracker-like role, it's like a vanilla townie.

You realize that this is NOT a claim?

[Rishi]

Someone please hammer Vaughn. Now. Thanks.

I agree. Vaughn might be stalling hoping that the deadline passes.

[Rishi]

Vote: RossWilliam

Two reasons:

1. Not believing kuribo's claim.
2. Post 420:

kuribo bangwagon is making less and less sense, and vaughan bangwagon is making more and more. while I hate to just be wagon jumping, i'd feel not totally together doing anything else.

unvote, vote: Vaughan

[Rishi]

@Rishi: Can you explain to me why mafia would be more likely to not believe kuribo's claim? Are you saying you think mafia would try to get him lynched yesterday? I feel like I'm missing something.

Don't we usually catch scum by their weak arguments? The fact is that RossWilliam is one of the people who was attacking a known townie. There are two known townies at this point (three if you count ibaesha) and RW was on both their bandwagons. He continued to be on the kuribo bandwagon after it dried up.

I think there's something there. At least enough to kick off discussion on Day 2.

[Rishi]

On the objective side, I believe it's been raised that I made no nightchoice on N1, which was confirmed by a dead tracker. Beyond that, I don't think there's been much else by way of claims - someone correct me here is I am mistaken.

Ibby was a vig, though she obviously didn't use her ability. We had no lynch on Day 1, and Ibby was killed Night 1. Yesterday, we lynched Vaughn (and I forget who he replaced) and kuribo (Tracker) was killed at night.

Hi Claus.

[Rishi]

thesp! sorry, no guesses.

And Rishi, you make a point that I was on townie only bandwagons, but when I was on them, they were not confirmed townie. They were suspects of being scum, and I was not the only one who felt so. And it would be sketchy if i was on, say four or five confirmed town bandwagon. but two? two is a small number. The chances of someone being on two townie bandwagons by mistake are actually pretty high. I don't see why it's a fatal sin to make a mistake in suspecting someone. From your perspective, your implying that to avoid suspicion one should only share their opinions if they're confirmed right. By that logic, no one would contribute, and than you have no game. Just my two cents, and I don't think I should be punished for it

It's not a fatal sin to suspect someone, but I find it odd that you were on one bandwagon of a townie, and then switched to another (for very weak reasons).

And I see a lot of words here, but I don't see you saying much.

My vote stands.

[Rishi]

-- Rishi seems just tunneling on the sidelines.

Rishi: Do you think that the Kuribo and Vaughn bandwagons were without merit? What do you think of Someone2? Thok? Thesp?

Very busy. Sorry. I thought the kuribo bandwagon was without merit after he claimed. I definitely believed the claim and wasn't sure why people were still on it. Obviously, I wouldn't have voted for Vaughn if I thought his wagon had no merit, so I understand why people were on it.

Everyone else is suspicious of someone2, and I'd be lying if that didn't rub off on me a little. But I have yet to see anything conclusive. Everyone just seems to be shouting, "He's scummy! It's obvious!" I think the case on him hasn't been super-strong.

Thok - neutral. I don't have a strong opinion on him.

I feel Thesp is pro-town.

And I still don't like the way Lowell is playing.

[Rishi]

Ythill....what is your intention with that post?

My intention in posting wagon analyses in general was to make a public record of impressions I'm gaining from deep rereads of each wagon, and to generate discussion about the things revealed therein.

I started this with Lowell but abandonned the idea after nobody responded to my first analysis. Then Seta showed interest in my thoughts regarding the S2 wagon and so I put together the above post.

In analysis mode, I'm not trying to clear or discredit anyone, I am simply calling the shots as I see them. Incidentally, I think my post does challenge some of the suspicions against S2 but it is the product of a neutral read.

For the record, I find it helpful.

[Rishi]

Victory!

Nothing else to say.