Open 42 - Friends and Enemies - (Game Over) before 495

[Guardian]

Mod Post: Vote Count

Sammich[3](Samruc, Shanba, Simenon)
Phate[1](ChaosOmega)
Shanba[1](Sammich)
Lemming1607[1](Jex)

Not Voting[3](Phate, Lemming1607, Per)

[Shanba]

Phate I don't feel it necessary to respond. I like the way you've brought a fresh perspective, especially towards ChaosOmega, who was not really on my radar. I still prefer a Sammich wagon, with whose play I have been entirely dissatified this game.

OTOH, I don't think your case against Sim is as strong as you seem to believe - having played with him before, and, moreover, other similarly experienced players many of them seem to get bored with conventional playing styles (or don't believe them to be as effective as possible) and change things up a bit. Judging from his replies, I'd guess he made a conscious decision to bandwagon this game - making it a nulltell. OTOH, it does make it very difficult to dsicern his alignment, which might be a problem in future (though I have afeeling it will work itself out - these things often tend to).

[Samruc]

A note to the

Mod

: Simenon moved his vote to Sammich, if I'm not mistaken.

Mod Edit: Fixed

I'm quite happy with the pressure being on Sammich, his last posts were downspiraling (fast) until suddenly the "oh, lolz I'm doing another Crub ". Content or more pressure, I say.

@Phate: I'll try to take a closer look at your analysis tomorrow. (Reading that last page took me about two hours...). I simply noted that there was nothing pressing for me to answer directly, but I will comment on your conclusions if I see something strange. I agree with you, that Chaos seems to be overexaggerating, but that Khelvaster-thing looks like a mistake.

@CO: Do *you* find Lemming scummy, since you seem to think Phate should be?

[Sammich]

DAMN YOU CO
YOUR INTERESTING POSTS MADE ME ACCIDENTLY DELETE MY ORIGINAL ANALYSIS
DAMN YOU TO HELL

New, shiny vote analysis.

So I looked at votes and what not.

What striked me was this.

It looks like you're trying to do the same thing Sammich is, which is to suspect a bunch of people and get on the one that sticks. So there are 4 people who you are at least fairly sure are scum, in addition to another person who believe could be scum. And surprisingly, the person who hammered day 1 is not in your long list of suspicions. Considering you think the Crub lynch was a bad one since you knew he was a newbie townie, I'm curious as to why you're not suspicious of Lemming1607.

In which. Why hasen't he found Lemming suspicious himself?

chaosomega unvotes in post 139
chaosomega votes crub in post 139
chaosomega suspects sir tornado in post 139
chaosomega unvotes in post 207
chaosomega votes samruc in post 207
chaosomega unvotes in post 254
chaosomega votes crub in post 254
chaosomega votes alsleet in post 304

Not a single touch on lemming here. Lemming has no votes or FoS's on CO ever.

lemming1607 votes samruc in post 7
lemming1607 unvotes in post 44
lemming1607 votes shanba in post 44
lemming1607 unvotes in post 53
lemming1607 votes crub in post 77
lemming1607 unvotes in post 89
lemming1607 votes yogurtbandit in post 96
lemming1607 unvotes in post 143
lemming1607 votes simenon in post 164
lemming1607 unvotes in post 230
lemming1607 votes sammich in post 230
lemming1607 unvotes in post 265
lemming1607 votes crub in post 265
lemming1607 suspects sammich in post 290

I'm inclined to put my vote on ChaosOmega until further notice.

Unvote; Vote ChaosOmega

shanba votes polter in post 10
shanba unvotes in post 31
shanba votes emptyger in post 31
shanba unvotes in post 37
shanba votes dairy milk product guy in post 37
shanba unvotes in post 65
shanba votes sirt in post 65
shanba unvotes in post 67
shanba votes yb in post 67
shanba unvotes in post 98
shanba unvotes in post 98
shanba votes lemming in post 98
shanba unvotes in post 101
shanba votes srt in post 101
shanba unvotes in post 217
shanba votes sammich in post 217
shanba unvotes in post 246
shanba votes alsleet in post 246
shanba unvotes in post 251
shanba votes sammich in post 251
shanba unvotes in post 256
shanba votes crub in post 256
shanba votes sammich in post 289



Never a vote on Samruc, or Simenon. Samruc didn't vote Shanba in this game. A FOS, but never a vote. Samruc only voted Simenon once. Simenon never voted Samruc and hasn't even touched CO. I don't know what to make of this.

samruc votes emptyger in post 8
samruc unvotes in post 12
samruc votes simenon in post 12
samruc suspects lemming1607 in post 19
samruc suspects shanba in post 54
samruc unvotes in post 88
samruc votes yogurtbandit in post 88
samruc unvotes in post 136
samruc suspects crub in post 136
samruc votes sammich in post 210
samruc votes sammich in post 285

simenon unvotes in post 11
simenon votes samruc in post 11
simenon unvotes in post 42
simenon votes yogurt in post 42
simenon unvotes in post 76
simenon votes count in post 76
simenon votes sanba in post 76
simenon unvotes in post 84
simenon votes yogurtbandit in post 84
simenon unvotes in post 104
simenon votes sirt in post 104
simenon unvotes in post 146
simenon votes crub in post 146
simenon votes sammich in post 269
simenon unvotes in post 321
simenon votes alsleet in post 321
simenon unvotes in post 339
simenon votes sammich in post 339


But I don't like this vote analysis I'm making, personally. I'm pissed because my big, previous, detailed D2 analysis got deleted after I tried to copy something CO posted.

That will have to wait.

[Lemming1607]

But I don't like this vote analysis I'm making, personally.

You make a huge ass voting analysis, and then completely discredit it immediately?

I still think my case against Sammich is valid, and I'm going to vote him now. I didn't originally so that we'd have discussion and no quick lynch.

VOTE: Sammich

[Phate]

*suspicious WTF*

WTFF, Lemming? It's nowhere near time to put someone at L-1. We want discussion and no quick lynch, don't we?

I personally also support Sammich's lynch, as I think he's scum, but this is way too fast. Quick lynches are NOT GOOD FOR TOWN. Even if we knew he was scum, his responses and other players' responses can give us clues to our next lynch.

Someone else who thinks putting someone at L-1 this soon is insanity, unvote please.

[ChaosOmega]

I wasn't very suspicious of Lemming until after his hammer. I saw Phate throwing around suspicion, and I just wanted him to clarify why he didn't think Lemming was scummy. As for what I think of him, he's not at the top of the list, but he's not at the bottom either. I didn't notice anything odd about him day 1 until it ended. As for Phate,

Oh, right. He added a player that was replaced. So when I have Khelvaster (maybe scum), followed by Sammich (probably scum), that's only one person. But I guess he didn't notice this.

Oops. You would guess correctly.

Well, I'm going to stop this accusation in its tracks. There are 3 Masons, 3 Townies, and 3 Mafia left. Having four people you suspect are scum isn't unreasonable - obviously, you're not right on every one of them, but you could be right on the 75% majority.

I'm not a big fan of saying more people have a good chance of being scum than the amount of scum remaining. But that's just my opinion, and the reasoning is alright, especially now that you only suspect 4 people over 5.

I still think my case against Sammich is valid, and I'm going to vote him now. I didn't originally so that we'd have discussion and no quick lynch.

...and then you vote to put someone at L-1. If you didn't want a quick-lynch, why would you do that? I don't disagree with the vote, I just find your reasoning counter-intuitive.

[Phate]

Is it really early enough to put someone at *L-1*?? I think Sammich is scum. I'd vote for him. But I don't think we've given him adequate time to respond.

Sammich, if I were you I'd talk fast and well.

Anyone else who thinks this is too soon, unvote please.

And btw, Lemming. Up until a second ago, I was willing to write off your hammer as frustration. But we're what, 3 pages in? L-1??? This is highly suspicious

[Samruc]

Unvote

.

(Sammich, consider yourself still at L-1. I just don't want to give you the opportunity to hammer yourself)

We can wait for Sammich to rewrite his analysis, at least a few more days. I think it might be an interesting read anyway.

[Shanba]

Sammich has had time to respond, he's wasted it, now he's being sent to the back of the class. I don't blame people for voting for him, frankly, though I admit I am glad he is finally doing something, and perhaps should be given some reprieve while he finishes some sort of analysis. That being said, I agree with Lemming's reason for voting for him. Exactly why he took so long to respond bugs me too. He's still my top suspect, that's a given. One thing after another, it's all built up. I don't see my self leaving this wagon.

The gist of what I was trying to say is - phate, I don't think your reaction is warranted.

[Sammich]

Old, Rewritten Analysis

First thing I noticed: Shanba typoed "better" on page 12. Lolz.

Anyway.

I guess I relinquish my attack. It was day one, after all.
Besides this, could we get some insight from AlSleet? He's been under the radar/not posting as much lately.

What the hell, was I stoned or something? Day one? That wasn't a real excuse.

I haven't really done much during D2 yet. More will come on Saturday.

Mod: Seriously, has Per picked up his prod?

Also, I thought Jex's post here was somewhat scummy.

While there are only 3 mafia members, there are still 10 possible mafia (9 if one doesn't count themself). Sammich FOSed people for the reasons he found them suspicious. He wanted answers. I don't see anything wrong with that. If he were to simply lay a vote on, then he would have to flop around to get all the answers he wanted instead of just doing it all in one post. I know I tend to do that type of a thing a lot, and I don't see it as scummy.

P.S. - I'm by no means saying I don't think Sammich is scummy, I'm just saying I don't think that particular strategy is scummy.

Which is a complete differental to the later post of:

You make a good point. I guess I was mostly just paying attention to the questions he asked me, which was a good question to ask.

ChaosOmega (replaced EmpTyger) - doesn't make filler post (admirable). Votes Crub and FoS's Sir T in first post, accusing Crub of trying to reveal the Masons and Sir T of bandwagoning. Next post: changes his vote to Samruc, implying that real townies vote instead of just accusing. Next post: revotes Crub with no other reason than that Simenon wanted him to die. (At this point, I am 72% that he is scum. Three votes and one FoS in three posts, including two flip-flops based on public opinion. His accusation to Sir T of bandwagon is paling in comparison to his own behaviour.) Sammich notices this, and confronts him. CO backpedals, saying Crub was his main suspect all the time, and that he just voted for Samruc "to see his response," and also, in essence, admits that his only evidence is Crub's perceived failure (he calls all of Crub's responses appeals to emotion) to defend himself after CO calls him out on mentioning the Masons (Is this particularly damning? I think not. Crub strikes me not as scum, but as a newbie, or unskilled, townie. Turns out I was right.) Casually mentions that Sammich is his first choice for scum (with no justification - this is essentially another completely unfounded FoS based on public opinion), but instead votes for AlSlee simply "because he hasn't posted in 9 days," and because he wouldn't like to be accused of setting up for a hammer. Someone remarks that CO isn't much better. CO curtly defends himself and vaguely agrees that he'd like to hear more from people.

Crap, I missed that. CO possibly NKing Sir T could be a reality. Also you forgot the T on AlSleet. =\

Sammich (replaced Khelvaster) - First thing he does is FoS Shanba, making a weak case backed up through faulty logic. Disagrees with a policy lynch of YB. Goes on to vote ET, with a mediocre base of evidence. Maintains pressure on Shanba, but votes Sir T for a lack of "Town-love." (The fuck? What kind of evidence is that?) Surreptiously asks for a hammer. When Sammich notices this, he responds with, basically, "nuh-uh. If I was asking for a hammer, I would have been harder on him." (If that had any logic to it, it would be WIFOM; since it doesn't, it's just stupid. If he was telling the truth, if that's the case, why even mention it?) Then he OMGUS FoS's Samruc (he also votes himself, but I think he was trying to quote Samruc's vote of him). Shanba picks up on this, and votes Sammich. He backpedals and tries to defend himself, finally (though he denies it and "backs it up" with "reasons") OMGUS votes Shanba. His famous (it is now) "Opportunistic scum, take notice" dissuades anyone from voting for him, and gives him time to jump on the Crub wagon. His last post on the 29th - "I admit it. I would vote anybody except me right now." is ridiculous (Is he attempting to convey paranoia? I don't get it. That's a decidedly anti-town stance, and I can only guess that it's tongue-in-cheek).

When Sim votes him, he responds with "What the hell?" (If they're both scum, that could have a double meaning.)

At the beginning of Day II, Samm and Sim start out at each other's throats (Odd timing. Maybe trying to make people believe they're not connected). FoS's Sim, Lemming, Shanba, and Jex. The majority of his questions are so loaded as to invalidate them. Sim's question was, Shanba's question was ridiculously so, and the "cases" against Lemming and Jex were weak (Did he plan it that way? WIFOM). EVERYONE picked up on this, and he voted and FoS'd the people who called him out. When his attacks played out, he kind of just faded into the background.

WIFOM.

So if someone criticises my mention of the Masons and gives no reasons that I have not just responded to, beware, they're just looking for an excuse to lynch me. But if someone criticises my mention of the Masons (or anything else), and gives actual evidence to back it up, then listen to them, and if I don't respond well enough, goodbye, Phate.

How the hell does Phate get off talkin' bout Masons when I get yelled at during D1? It's not fair.

Everyone please pressure Phate.

Very weird, seeing he quickly backpedals from this to me.

I'm quite happy with the pressure being on Sammich, his last posts were downspiraling (fast) until suddenly the "oh, lolz I'm doing another Crub ". Content or more pressure, I say.

Yeah I'm at L2 right now.
I see that as enough pressure.

You make a huge ass voting analysis, and then completely discredit it immediately?

I still think my case against Sammich is valid, and I'm going to vote him now. I didn't originally so that we'd have discussion and no quick lynch.

VOTE: Sammich

Wtf.

suspicious WTF*

WTFF, Lemming? It's nowhere near time to put someone at L-1. We want discussion and no quick lynch, don't we?

I personally also support Sammich's lynch, as I think he's scum, but this is way too fast. Quick lynches are NOT GOOD FOR TOWN. Even if we knew he was scum, his responses and other players' responses can give us clues to our next lynch.

Someone else who thinks putting someone at L-1 this soon is insanity, unvote please.

What?
If you support my lynch why are you so hesistant to hammer?

Sammich has had time to respond, he's wasted it, now he's being sent to the back of the class. I don't blame people for voting for him, frankly, though I admit I am glad he is finally doing something, and perhaps should be given some reprieve while he finishes some sort of analysis. That being said, I agree with Lemming's reason for voting for him. Exactly why he took so long to respond bugs me too. He's still my top suspect, that's a given. One thing after another, it's all built up. I don't see my self leaving this wagon.

WELL YOU DIDN'T HAVE A COPYPASTA ACCIDENT TRYING TO MAKE A 50+ WORD ANALYSIS, DID YOU? I THINK NOT.

Final thoughts. Shit, may be my final post in this game if nobody likes this post.

Phate: I think town. Seems strange with that one post ridiculing Lemming but I think he's town so far.

Shanba: Scum.

Lemming: Scum. I just can't get over the first D1 hammer and now the L1 thing. It doesn't add up as town actions.

ChaosOmega: Not sure.

Samruc: I guess town. I dunno.

Simenon: Either really bad town or scum. Has bad D1 posts but suddenly cleans up his playstyle on D2.

Jex: I don't know. Hasn't provided much content or anything. Let's go with the Samruc theory and

Unvote; Vote Jex

because we need moar content from her.

*Moar is intentional.

Sammich: Town. Lynch me and the scum will prolly win. D=

Actually.

Unvote; Vote Lemming

If I die, you better put up with them damn consequences on D3, okay?

[Shanba]

Was it intentional to leave Per off your opinion list? Gotta say, distinctly underwhelmed, though.

First up - why did you choose to look at, specifically, the one post you made retracting your attack on Sim, and the one active lurky post of Per's? It seems an odd choice, frankly. What's the point in singling out these two posts? What new insights do your views on them give?

Second - Note that Jex is referring to two different things in those two posts. The first is the fact that you FoSsed lots of people, the second is the content of the questions. I don't see the problem with that, especially as she explained her logic.

Third - WTF? Why did you take the time to quote phate's fairly comprehensive analysis of you, then choose to bold one fairly unimportant line and call it WIFOM? Perhaps, you know, defending yourself against the rest of his points might help. Also, phate explained his logic about the masons thing. And if you look, I never callled you scummy for it, just told you that it was a bad idea.

Fourth - did you even read phate's post to lemming? Phate says he doesn't want a quicklynch, which is fair enough, rather than discouraging your lynch. Especially given you had promised content, this is an understandable reaction. In fact, what differs his WTF from your WTF?

Fifthly - that post was about you failing to do anything until I poked you about it and you made your post about pulling a crub.

As for your alst suspicion list - it's useless. Currently, even if you came up town no one would give it a second glance because it's completely unsubstantiated. If you want to make an impact, back up your suspicions here (this is an open invitation to Simenon too, btw.)

[Jex]

Jex - randomvotes Khelvaster. Votes Crub for putting YogurtBandit at L-2 (Hmm.) When Crub OMGUS's him, he tries to set the foundation for a case against Crub. In his next post, he says he's "doing a PBPA of the first person on the list (alphabetically) which just happens to be crub:" (Please. Whether you're scum, town, or Mason, there's no "just happens to be" when every post since your second has targeted Crub.) His PBPA is the beginning of a weak case on Crub that, coupled with Crub's refusal to defend himself, will end in a mislynch. Finally, he notes that Crub is lurking. Crub points out that Jex is on his fourth post, one of which is a randomvote with no explanation. Jex apologises. He remains silent until public opinion sways against Crub, at which time he pops back up and leaps onto the bandwagon, all the while reminding that he's been on Crub since the beginning. His eighth post, on Sep. 14, I really don't like. He responds to Crub's fatalism by saying such fatalism "wreaks [sic] of scum." (This could be a honest mistake, but if so, it's a giant one. At best: Townies aren't afraid to die to help the town win. A 1-for-1 trade is beneficial to the town, and that's what Crub wanted out of this one. At worst: WIFOM. But it's hard to interpret this as reeking of scum.) He apologises for inactivity, saying that he'll "stay up on the game," and defends his vote on Crub by saying that his gut instincts are always right. (O RLY?)

As for Day 1, I was wrong. I was a horible town member on Day 1 because of my inactivity. I've already explained this a bunch, and don't feel the need to go into again. My gut was wrong this time, but it happens. Crub didn't give me any reason to think otherwise as his defense was very OMGUS. I didn't remove my vote at all because I was fairly certain that he was scum. Again, I was wrong, and we know that now. I wasn't the only one on the wagon though, so just because I focused on him shouldn't make me automatic scum.

He claims to have done a readthrough and votes Lemming, although mentioning that he also is looking at Sammich. His justification is the hammer on Day 1 (You were VOTING for Crub. If you didn't want him susceptible to a hammer, unvote.)

Yes I was voting for Crub, but lemmings vote on crub was merely because he wanted the day over. He hadn't found crub scummy the entire day then suddenly hammers. I find that attitude anti-town.

Right now I don't know who I think is scum, Lemming stuck out on my quick read through. Now I'm watching to see if things stand out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On to other posts:

I really don't understand what Sammich's vote analysis was supposed to point out. Apparently I missed something. I don't know.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In Sammich's analyis, I don't understand how the two quote from me correlate.

Also, I thought Jex's post here was somewhat scummy.

While there are only 3 mafia members, there are still 10 possible mafia (9 if one doesn't count themself). Sammich FOSed people for the reasons he found them suspicious. He wanted answers. I don't see anything wrong with that. If he were to simply lay a vote on, then he would have to flop around to get all the answers he wanted instead of just doing it all in one post. I know I tend to do that type of a thing a lot, and I don't see it as scummy.

Phate said basically the same thing as this later on, but you didn't seem to find that scummy. Why is mine scummy?

Which is a complete differental to the later post of:

You make a good point. I guess I was mostly just paying attention to the questions he asked me, which was a good question to ask.

This regarded a completely different topic. I was agreeing with Shanba that some of the arguments/questions you asked lacked logic and were WIFOM, especially the question asked of Shanba. I hadn't looked very closely at the questions asked to other people as I focused on answering the question asked of me, which was a viable question. It's one thing to give logical reasons for thinking people are scum, and having more possibilities then remaining scum (you can't eliminate anyone if you don't get answers), but to ask random WIFOM questions doesn't get anyone closer to figuring it out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I find it interesting that in Sammich's analysis Lemming does not appear at all except for his critique of Sammich's pointless vote analysis and his vote. Yes, Lemming put Sammich at L-1 and I find this scummy simply because he also hammered day 1. However, Sammich votes Lemming on that one post alone. To me, the vote seems kind of OMGUS.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

unvote

I need to think.

[Per]

This post might be somewhat weird, it was partly written while reading and partly after reading. If I need to clarify something feel free to ask.

First of all:

I haven't really done much during D2 yet. More will come on Saturday.

Mod: Seriously, has Per picked up his prod?

I did. Next I found myself reading until 2.30am and still not getting through Phate's long posts, so I gave up and here we are, 24 hours later. I seem to be able to find time for Mafia only after midnight. I'm truly sorry for that.

Per: What was the point of putting Crub at L1?

I thought I made that perfectly clear when I voted him. He deflected instead of defending, he was full of WIFOM and OMGUS, he was indirectly appealing to emotion. Maybe the initial case against him was weak, but I would expect a pro-town player to react by simply pointing this out in the first place, not by panicking completely and one giving a good post after about everyone has asked him to.


I find Sammich's play to be very interesting. He begins D2 with a fairly pro-town post (page-by-page summary) but he ends it in a scummy way by adding the notorious quadruple FoS. From that point, the only thing he did was defending and backpedaling up to "it's OK Simenon, it was only Day 1". His play now seems to be similar to Crub's, but you can't make any conclusions about his alignment from that (100% WIFOM). Oh wait, Sammich pointed this out himself in 346.

ChaosOmega,

why did you vote AlSleet instead of asking for a prod?


I like Phate. He steps forward and makes a lot of analyses, and most of them are very good (though I wouldn't say Simenon failed to defend himself. In fact I think his responses to Phate are better posts than he had made so far). Phate makes an interesting case against CO, but I have one comment:

Oh, and how is my behavior "paling in comparison" to that of Sir Tornado? He wanted someone lynched for reasons that have nothing to do with the current game.

This doesn't just miss my point, it sidesteps it and clotheslines it on the rebound. He accuses Sir Tornado of bandwagoning without sufficient reasoning. Next post, he votes Crub, who's being wagoned (reasoning: one post that commented on the Masons). Next post, he votes Samruc to try to get him onto the Crub wagon (reasoning: If you're suspicious, why don't you vote?). Next post, he jumps back to Crub (his entire post was: "I agree. Vote: Crub." This was in response to Simenon's post, quoted in its entirety here: "That's :badvoting:. We should be voting Crub.") Sir T, on the other hand, jumped onto one bandwagon and pretty much stayed there, citing a valid metagame decision - in his experience, the town tends to lose games when YogurtBandit plays. I'd call that "paling in comparison."

You call it "a valid metagame decision" to back up your case. I really don't agree with that statement. Sir T (and if I recall correctly, there was someone else who did the same thing) said something like "YB is a bad player, thus he should be lynched". In an 11 player game, I don't accept that as a strategy at all. However, this doesn't counter the points you raised concerning CO's voting record.


(Shanba, could you please tell this non-native English speaker what the abbreviation "OTOH" stands for? :-[)

Sammich,

what are you trying to achieve with your voting analysis? I agree that it might help finding connections between scum. But it may expose connections between masons as well. Especially when you are trying to find so many connections. It would be OK if you were interested in one particular connection and back it up with voting records, but to me, this seems to be a little bit too much info spread out for the scum.

Phate,

please clarify the difference between Post 341:

Notice to everyone: Since there appears to be a bandwagon on Sammich, and since I think he's scum, and since he's failing to defend himself, I will hereby vote for him in +- 20 hours unless he provides me with a satisfactory response. That will put him at L-1, unless someone votes for him, in which case it will put us at Day 3.

...and Post 355:

WTFF, Lemming? It's nowhere near time to put someone at L-1. We want discussion and no quick lynch, don't we?

I personally also support Sammich's lynch, as I think he's scum, but this is way too fast.

For the record, I agree that it is too early for L-1. But you said you would make an L-1 or even a hammer vote (!!), but then, when someone else does, you condamn him for it. You are making a very sharp, very fast U-turn here.

Everyone please pressure Phate.

Very weird, seeing he quickly backpedals from this to me.

Ooh, nice catch. I completely missed that one.

However, you are doing "a Crub" again in the end of your post. "If I die, you better put up with them damn consequences on D3, okay?" I never, ever like this kind of statements. Also, can you come up with better defense than "Wtf.", "What?" and the likes?



Suspects... hmm. I think the best case at the moment is the one against CO. I don't know what to make of Lemming's L-1 vote yet (no we can't afford to lynch anyone this quickly, but no I don't know if the vote in itself was really that scummy). Sammich seems similar to Crub, meaning he is suspicious, but Crub being town just makes me doubt this.

Well, I hope that I'm in the game again and can follow it up daily so that I can get more vibes.

[Lemming1607]

I'm not going to unvote. We've had 4 pages of discussion since day 2 started, and he's done nothing to make me think I'm wrong. His spaghetti strategy I didn't like at all and I'm pretty damn sure he's scum.

[Phate]

The gist of what I was trying to say is - phate, I don't think your reaction is warranted.

For the record, I agree that it is too early for L-1. But you said you would make an L-1 or even a hammer vote (!!), but then, when someone else does, you condamn him for it. You are making a very sharp, very fast U-turn here.

I changed my mind.

Since there appears to be a bandwagon on Sammich, and since I think he's scum, and since he's failing to defend himself, I will hereby vote for him in +- 20 hours unless

he provides me with a satisfactory response

.

Now, while the response is far from satisfactory, he is at least presumably trying. And while I doubt that he's going to give us much more than what he is now - greatly flawed analysis - it's at least worth a shot. More valuable than his response at this point (assuming he's going to keep giving us this diarrhea in place of logical defense) is the responses of others: for example, Lemming's setup (or my threatened setup/hammer, if you want to count that; there's no reason you shouldn't, but I don't) is suspicious to me. I was willing to overlook his D1 hammer, but he's just moved up to number 4.5 or so on my scumlist.

Also, on a more psychological note, I'm OCD and a complete control freak. It doesn't bother me to hammer someone. But if it someone else hammers without my permission, it stresses me out. =] <-- Not a good reason, but true.

Thank you, Sammich, for the "vote analysis." Although it's not a vote analysis, it's a vote record. Analyses imply commentary. So... yeah. I'll maybe figure out a way to use that hopefully. Doesn't contribute anything to your defense.

Let's look at Sammich's "points."

Point 1 - Jex Incongruity - I think Shanba and Jex adequately defended Jex on this one.

Point 2 - Agreement with Phate - The fact that you may agree with me on someone else I think is scum has nothing to do with your defense.

Point 3 - Response to Phate's Analysis - As Shanba pointed out, bolding one unimportant line and calling it WIFOM is not a valid defense.

Point 4 - Phate's Mention of the Masons - As Shanba pointed out, I already explained this.

Point 5 - Simenon's Request for Pressure on Phate - Per mentioned this. Actually, I don't think that's unusual. I'm a new player in the game whose allegiance is uncertain. Simenon has some sort of pressure-bandwagon fetish going on, so it's only natural that he would apply it to me immediately.

Point 6 - Comment on Samruc's Comment on Pressure - Agreed. You ARE under pressure, Sammich... but you're not defending yourself. And I don't think you can, because I don't think you're town. But if you are, and if you can, this is about your last chance.

Point 7 - Response to Lemming's Vote - And a merry WTF to you too.

Point 8 - Response to Phate's Urge of Caution - I DO want to lynch you. Just not yet. And I'd say soon. I'm willing to give you about one more post worth of soon.

Point 9 - Response to Shanba's Comment on Wasted Time - A valid point. Losing long posts sucks.

Point 10 - Final Thoughts - Why do you think Shanba is scum?

Point 11 - "When I die..." - See Crub, Day 1.

That was a complete waste of time. Alright, if you don't change my mind within 24 hours, I think I'm willing to vote you.

Yes I was voting for Crub, but lemmings vote on crub was merely because he wanted the day over. He hadn't found crub scummy the entire day then suddenly hammers. I find that attitude anti-town.

I maintain my point of view. If you're part of a wagon that has someone at L-1, calling someone out for the hammer is probably hypocritical.

Glad to have you back, Per.

OTOH means On The Other Hand. Here's a useful resource - http://foldoc.org/contents/chat.html - great for those who don't understand ASCIIbonics.

I think that's everything.

[Per]

For the record, I agree that it is too early for L-1. But you said you would make an L-1 or even a hammer vote (!!), but then, when someone else does, you condamn him for it. You are making a very sharp, very fast U-turn here.

I changed my mind.

Since there appears to be a bandwagon on Sammich, and since I think he's scum, and since he's failing to defend himself, I will hereby vote for him in +- 20 hours unless

he provides me with a satisfactory response

.

Now, while the response is far from satisfactory, he is at least presumably trying. And while I doubt that he's going to give us much more than what he is now - greatly flawed analysis - it's at least worth a shot. More valuable than his response at this point (assuming he's going to keep giving us this diarrhea in place of logical defense) is the responses of others: for example, Lemming's setup (or my threatened setup/hammer, if you want to count that; there's no reason you shouldn't, but I don't) is suspicious to me. I was willing to overlook his D1 hammer, but he's just moved up to number 4.5 or so on my scumlist.

Hmm. I checked the timing, and the post where I would have expected you to vote was just after Sammich's promise that he would make an analysis, and it was the post where you point out the misquoting by CO, explicitly saying that Sammich has moved to your #2. I concede this point.

[Sammich]

I'm not going to unvote. We've had 4 pages of discussion since day 2 started, and he's done nothing to make me think I'm wrong. His spaghetti strategy I didn't like at all and I'm pretty damn sure he's scum.

Pretty damn wrong too. =\

I DO want to lynch you. Just not yet. And I'd say soon. I'm willing to give you about one more post worth of soon.

I just don't get this.
If you want to lynch me, by all means lynch me now.
I might get off the hammer block or something before you can get to lynch me. I don't understand the hesistation.

[Per]

If you don't care about being lynched, by all means start being useful now so we might at least have something serious to investigate if you would turn up town.

If it wasn't for the case against CO and the short length of the day so far, I would be voting you. At the moment, I wouldn't like a lynch yet.

[Phate]

*writes Sammich off as scum who refuses to try to defend himself*

Ok, here's my proposal.

We're reasonably sure that Sammich is scum. I think that at this point, Shanba, I, Per, Sammich, Lemming, and maybe some others would be willing to lynch Sammich.

Let's put that aside for a moment, though.

I propose that we accept Sammich as the vastly most likely lynch for today... and then leave his lynch on hold and explore other routes for the following days. Better to discuss this before a townie is NK'ed than after. Then, tomorrow and forward, we'll have foundations to build upon.

I'd specifically like to explore possible cases on Jex, CO, and Lemming, although anyone is welcome to contribute anything.

I'll start with Lemming, because I think it will be the shortest - Lemming, why did you hammer Crub? Why are you in favour of a quick Sammich lynch? I don't think you're scum, but I'd like to hear your detailed rationales for both decisions, if you will.

[Phate]

Err... when I listed Sammich as someone I think would be willing to lynch Sammich, I meant SAMRUC as someone I think would be willing to lynch Sammich.

[Sammich]

I accept that propasal. I believe a Sammich lynch is customary but we could use.
Wait.
That's not the point.

[Samruc]

I think it might be hard to keep a discussion going after saying that we probably could agree on a lynch anyway.

Phate, if you really want that discussion with Lemming now, I'll give it a few days, but I'm gonna put Sammich back where he belongs if we start getting nowhere.

[Simenon]

I would not be unhappy with a lemming lynch.

[Simenon]

Actually, going over my posts, let me be a bit clearly as to where I stand without having to explain myself. I will do so if you ask me to but I really don't have the time to make analysis on twelve players.

All sections are from most town to least town
Town
Shanba
Phate (recently I've come to believe he's town)
Per
Jex

Neutral
ChaosOmega
Samruc

Scum
Lemming
Sammich

It should be noted that I don't think Lemming-Sammich is a likely scum pair. Lemming-Samruc is an interesting consideration.