Mini 508- Trouble in New Catania-Game Over

[The Fonz]

No deadlines till i find out whether i need to replace beastly, y'all.

[Rishi]

I see you posted in the replacement thread that a deadline will be imposed two weeks from the date you find a replacement. That seems fair to me.

I am souring a little on the Lowell bandwagon.

However, my main concern about keeping him around is that he's always going to be on the chopping block. Even if we don't lynch him today, I could easily see a Lowell lynch on Day 2 or 3. No, I'm not trying to set that up, but I'm just pointing out a pitfall to keeping him around.

Also, if he sticks around and turns out to be scum, we're all going to feel mighty stupid that we didn't lynch him on Day 1.

[Lowell]

It's a bandwagon driven by interia and a bunch of silent players more than by reason and argument. That's what's wrong with it.

If I'm scum you'll have time to kill me later. For now, the move has to be to put some real pressure on some other players.

[The Fonz]

Setael replaces Beastly

Deadline: 30th November

I'm not promising a specific time that day at this juncture.

Also, Setael is awesome.

[Setael]

Hi. Yay only 10 pages. I'll post once I've read.

[ibaesha]

Hi Setael. I'm very interested in your take on things considering your replacement is so close to my own.

I'm still very much attached to my someone2 vote. And I also still believe that the Lowell wagon is stinky.

[Rishi]

Setael has tried to get me lynched in every game I've been in with her. This worries me.

[Setael]

This is true, Rishi. Why you gotta act so scummy all the time?

Ok so the first thing I should say is that someone2's "slip" was not a scum tell, but actually a fairly common mistake made by francophones. I speak french pretty fluently and don't think it's odd at all for a native french speaker to say "there will be one scum left" when he meant "there will be one scum gone." It's reasonable that english speakers would have a hard time understanding this, but it's an easy mistake to make when words have multiple meanings in a second language.

Also I find it humorous that google translates the verb “partir” as party when it actually means “to leave”.

That being said, I think there are a lot of other things someone2 has said/done that were really scummy and suspicious. His logic is flawed in repeatedly stating that a lynch will "eliminate half the candidates." This was covered by other players, but due to townies not always being right in their suspicions as well as bussing/distancing, there's really no way to eliminate anyone for sure just because they were on the wagon of someone who came up scum or town. This is an odd reason to try to push for a Lowell lynch or for someone2 to keep his vote on Lowell.

Other reasons: post 58 in which he accuses Lowell of being scum for not reading carefully, but then just FOSes him for it; his OMGUS vote in post 61, post 150 “For me, I don't find Kuribo very scummy” just because I hardly think Kuribo's play has been squeaky clean; in the same post says Death Omen and Rishi’s hesitation to hammer Lowell is a reason to keep his vote on Lowell. He’s insinuating that D_O and Rishi are Lowell’s scum buddies. Quite a stretch. Finally, putting Lowell at -1 when he said he wanted the town to have more time to accumulate more info.

So then we have the Lowell wagon. Starting in post 55, streeflo, BrianMcQueso, rite and then Someone2 all attack Lowell. Post 59 LML diverts attention to Someone2. Feels like he’s distracting. If that was his intention, it works perfectly for both streeflo and Brian, who automatically agree with the Someone 2 wagon. Brian later says he meant Claus. Claus votes someone2 as well, but then attention comes back to Lowell in post 80 when kuribo draws attention back to Lowell and votes him.

Sadist is wishy washy in 72, and then takes a stand in 77 defending someone2 and voting Lowell. I can see where players could be suspicious of Lowell and I was actually entertaining the fact that he and LML were scum buddies, until Lowell's post 116 which seemed really pro Town. Felt a lot more like a Townie about to be lynched who didn’t have anything to lose rather than scum, especially with the conclusions he made.

I think Rishi’s post 97 is why I think he’s scum in every game. He says this in a lot of games, and I always find it hard to believe when someone has NOTHING to say and won’t give any opinions or suspicions. Due to this happening in other games, I’ll make an effort to not assume this is a scum tell.

Death Omen's post 124 is I think the second or third time he tries to find out what everyone else thinks without solidly giving his own opinion. Same problem as Rishi. My scumdar is just pinged every time someone hesitates to give their own opinion.

127 Crash Text replaces in and says Lowell bandwagon is rotten and kuribo is scummy. Beastly agrees about kuribo and votes him.

It's no surprise to me that both Lowell and Claus would vote against me--- they've been quite clearly standing up for one another since the very beginning.

Seems like a pretty bold statement, especially since I haven't noticed anything blatant until Lowell said he thinks Claus is town in his defense post.

@kuribo: Can you point out where Lowell and Claus have been standing up for one another since the very beginning?

Listen, fact is, I *KNOW* I'm town. And those of you that are scum know that I'm town too.

This just sounded really scummy.

If you'd actually like a defense, LML-- No, I don't think votehopping is scummy. Or bad. In fact I think a lot of towns would do a lot better by themselves by getting legitimate bandwagons on more people more often on D1. Attacking just one person makes it waaay to easy for scum to hide their votes.

QFT – First of all, in my experience town is a lot more likely to vote hop than scum who has more reason to fly low. Also, if only one person is being bandwagoned D1, it’s unlikely scum being bussed since scum could easily distract from any wagon started on a scum buddy by just starting up another wagon on another player.

151 seems very pro town and I especially agree with the kuribo points.

Totally ignoring the "slip" which I think is a null tell, I think someone2 is the best place for my vote at the moment. I would also be willing to vote kuribo who is my 2nd runner up.

vote: someone2

[kuribo]

Could start with these:

Post 52:

Check that.

unvote, vote Streeflo

Oh, also, the "suspicion" on claus is retarded. A bandwagon? Really?

Post 91:

1) The attacks on claus are retarded.

Look back at Lowell and then CTD's (Claus' replacement) vote histories. CTD votes me, so does Lowell. Lowell votes someone2, followed closely by CTD.


Anyway, I don't like some of Rishi's recent behavior, and somone2 is sticking out like a sore thumb. I'm a little less certain about Lowell at this point than I was.

Unvote

Need some time to think about where to go from here.

[someone2]

That being said, I think there are a lot of other things someone2 has said/done that were really scummy and suspicious. His logic is flawed in repeatedly stating that a lynch will "eliminate half the candidates." This was covered by other players, but due to townies not always being right in their suspicions as well as bussing/distancing, there's really no way to eliminate anyone for sure just because they were on the wagon of someone who came up scum or town. This is an odd reason to try to push for a Lowell lynch or for someone2 to keep his vote on Lowell.

These are just suppositions that can give the town information. I know that the townies are not always voting for scum players,they can make mistakes, I'm not stupid like that. But forget about the townies and think about the scum. If a player is scum, his scumbuddies will be tempted to defend him, if a player is town, scum would be tempted to attack him. So SCUM have BETTER CHANCES to defend Lowell if he's scum, and SCUM have BETTER CHANCES to attack Lowell if he is town. I know that scum can attack their scumbuddy and defend townies, but i think it would be rather stupid for a scum to attack his buddy when he's at lynch-1, but that's just my opinion, I don't know everything.

Other reasons: post 58 in which he accuses Lowell of being scum for not reading carefully, but then just FOSes him for it;

I've already explained that!!!

his OMGUS vote in post 61

It wasn't an OMGUS vote. I just didn't like how LML seemed to be pushing for my lynch after the FOS thing, which I thought a really minor thing.

post 150 “For me, I don't find Kuribo very scummy” just because I hardly think Kuribo's play has been squeaky clean;

Maybe his play wasn't squeaky clean, but I found other players scummier than him, that's my opinion. You don't find Lowell scum and I accept your opinion, I don't accuse you for that.

in the same post says Death Omen and Rishi’s hesitation to hammer Lowell is a reason to keep his vote on Lowell. He’s insinuating that D_O and Rishi are Lowell’s scum buddies. Quite a stretch

It seemed to me like distancing.

Finally, putting Lowell at -1 when he said he wanted the town to have more time to accumulate more info

You're mixting everything up.I put Lowell at minus 1 and then TWO PAGES AFTER, I changed my mind and considered that a longer day would be great for the town.

[Rishi]

Setael -- I can see why the "lurking in plain sight" trick throws off your scumdar. For Post 97, the only thing I wanted to do was Unvote on LML. I thought it would be lame to just put up a post with an "Unvote" and not much else, so I generated non-content. I think you'll also see, in most of my games, when I put up a post like that, it's usually after a few days of inactivity from me. Basically, what I try to get across in my non-posts is, "Hi, I'm here. I'm still reading. I have nothing to add. Don't prod me."

I'm curious about something.

Lowell -- What do you think of the someone2 wagon?

[kuribo]

If a player is scum, his scumbuddies will be tempted to defend him, if a player is town, scum would be tempted to attack him. So SCUM have BETTER CHANCES to defend Lowell if he's scum, and SCUM have BETTER CHANCES to attack Lowell if he is town. I know that scum can attack their scumbuddy and defend townies, but i think it would be rather stupid for a scum to attack his buddy when he's at lynch-1, but that's just my opinion, I don't know everything.

If the rest of the town is certain that someone is scum, L-1 WOULD be the time to do it, though, because you could distance yourself from him without being the one to drop the hammer.

[ibaesha]

I think it's interesting that Setael has come to similar conclusions to myself.

One thing about Lowell's 'scumminess'. He was accused of not reading the game thoroughly, yet he had read enough of it to come up with some conclusions by his 3rd post. I think he wrongly placed the 'buddying' up accusation onto Streeflo, who was merely responding to what someone2 started, but I think Lowell had the right idea. Just the wrong person. Also, I think that kuribo's reaction to Lowell's 3rd post was interesting. First he gets bent out of shape about the mispelling of his name, but then goes on to say that Lowell's post didn't contribute anything of value to the game. This is blatantly false, and possibly scum trying to devalue what Lowell -did- say. Lowell had voiced suspicion of 2 people and also commented on the wagon of the moment. While it may have been succinct, I don't think it's anywhere near non-contribution. By posting what Lowell did, he let people know what he was thinking, therefore it was contributive. More so than some other people at the time. IE: death_omen and HD.

The way that someone2 jumped on Lowell with a FoS, and pretty much parrotted what was said, is one thing I found suspicious about him. Also, this was the 2nd time he'd done it. He did pretty much the same thing with the Claus-wagon, stating that Claus was soo scummy, but being wishy-washy about it at the same time by stating Claus may have been trying to get reactions.

Mod: Can we have prods on: LML, HD, and death_omen?

None of them have posted since I replaced in.

MOD EDIT: Done.

[Lowell]

I'm curious about something.

Lowell -- What do you think of the someone2 wagon?

I feel pretty good about it. I jumped off when it didn't seem to be gathering any steam.

FTR, I'm still not sure buy the "slip" as merely language confusion.

[Setael]

That's because you don't have a lot of friends that speak French.

[Rishi]

I'm inclined to believe Setael. I don't see why she would lie about something like that, since it would be easy information to verify just by finding someone who speaks French.

[ibaesha]

Whether the slip was not really a slip isn't all that relative. It

should

be noted, but that's not the only reason someone2 is suspicious.

[kuribo]

Where did I get "bent out of shape" about the mis-spelling of my name? I mentioned that he was too lazy to find the correct spelling, (which he admitted) but I certainly didn't make as big a deal of it as others.

[death_omen]

Sorry guys for being inactive exams have really caught up to me.

Whether the slip was not really a slip isn't all that relative. It

should

be noted, but that's not the only reason someone2 is suspicious.

I agree with this more or less the slip whether it was accidental or natural has to be taken down and accounted for and it isnt the only thing hes done but then there is also a possiblity that there is a language barrier that could of led to him actually meaning something else. The "slip" should not be ignored completely but on that alone shouldnt be used as a sole reason to lynch him.

[Rishi]

I agree with this more or less the slip whether it was accidental or natural has to be taken down and accounted for and it isnt the only thing hes done but then there is also a possiblity that there is a language barrier that could of led to him actually meaning something else. The "slip" should not be ignored completely but on that alone shouldnt be used as a sole reason to lynch him.

And *I* get criticized for having nothing to add? This is the most wishy-washy thing I have ever read. Ever.

[Happiest Sadist]

These are just suppositions that can give the town information. I know that the townies are not always voting for scum players,they can make mistakes, I'm not stupid like that. But forget about the townies and think about the scum. If a player is scum, his scumbuddies will be tempted to defend him, if a player is town, scum would be tempted to attack him. So SCUM have BETTER CHANCES to defend Lowell if he's scum, and SCUM have BETTER CHANCES to attack Lowell if he is town. I know that scum can attack their scumbuddy and defend townies, but i think it would be rather stupid for a scum to attack his buddy when he's at lynch-1, but that's just my opinion, I don't know everything.

This is true only if the scum believes that his behavior can swing the town's decision to lynch that day and in the next couple of days. If a lynch is inevitable scum will defend a town player or finish off a scum player to appear pro-town. The scum realizes that if he mounts an unsuccessful defense against a correctly identified scumbuddy or manages to drive support against a townie this will draw suspicion the next day.

[ibaesha]

Alright, so other than mafia theory, do you have anything to add, HD?

[Lowell]

unvote, vote HS

. He deserves a vote.

[death_omen]

I agree with this more or less the slip whether it was accidental or natural has to be taken down and accounted for and it isnt the only thing hes done but then there is also a possiblity that there is a language barrier that could of led to him actually meaning something else. The "slip" should not be ignored completely but on that alone shouldnt be used as a sole reason to lynch him.

And *I* get criticized for having nothing to add? This is the most wishy-washy thing I have ever read. Ever.

Im basically clarifing my view on that, and that explanation can basically be used as where someone2 is on my suspicion list.

[Setael]

death_omen totally throws me off. he just turned up town in a game where he acted so scummy ALL game that I was certain he was scum. btw, if we lose that game death_omen, I expect you to take full responsibility for acting so scummy as town.