Newbie 480: Game Over!

[Erg0]

Zeek hasn't given us an incredible amount of material, and I think Ergo is trying a little hard to find something dead-lock incriminating.

Well, I've got to work with what I've got. I did think that Zeek was being given a bit of a free pass, so I probably did emphasise some points against him in order to gauge reactions.

Isn't Ergo saying "Newb or Scum" who can say? as inappropriate as my using that as a defense early?

Not really, I'm just voicing it as an issue that I need to work through (I've got a bad history of being unable to tell the difference).

I almost feel like we should lynch the lurker at this point.

Isn't, 'regardless of alignment' sort of written into this?

Only if you choose to read it that way. The fact that it was followed by a comment about finding three other players townish at that time, and a later comment that we shouldn't sacrifice a townie, should indicate that I wasn't thinking town for Garn at that point.

Ergo- You can do better than overreacting at L-2 right?

It's not a pillar of my case, but you're coming off as really defensive again now. It

is

a scumtell, especially when it doesn't fit with your history.

This seems incompatible with you liking Poro's consistency. You're uncertain on me, but you don't caution Poro about the danger's of his current tunnel-vision.

I'm not really sure what your point is here - I could accuse both of you of tunnel vision today, with all the time you spent arguing with each other. As a side point, I'm wondering how you feel about destructor's tunnel vision on me?

I get the feeling that the last part of your post isn't aimed at me, since I already know we're not buddies. I will point out that you seem to be going back to arguments from day 1, using both my "degrees of WIFOM" statement and point on the odds of us both being scum. I agree with the first point (obviously), but the answer to the second (as stated previously) is "exactly the same as the odds of any other scum pairing". The fact that you resorted to this argument even after it was previously discredited reeks of desperation to me.

[Civil Scum]

Come on Ergo, like seriously if we were to reach into a bag and pull out the red sweets... you're clearly missing the joke.

The first point, yeah. Which scenario works better though? Makes more sense? CS=scum with Ergo=town Ergo=scum with CS=town This is my point

[Civil Scum]

Ergo, Poro's tunnel vision greater differs from mine in D-2 for one very large reason. He's outright said he's not gonna vote for anyone else besides me.

I would agree that Destructor is tunneled, but he's working it out. I'm not gonna caution him against it, cause I think you're scum, there I said it.

Ironically, he's (Destructor) about the only person I really think is solidly town.

Considering the situation, I don't find it that ironic.

[Civil Scum]

"Degrees of WIFOM"

First of all, I don't understand how you can be upset with someone for using/expanding upon your argument. Except that it's aimed at you. This is defensive in and of itself.

Secondly, you used it as a cure-all for one thing, that you would have known you'd draw heat for defending me like you did. Except, you also claim that subsequent pressure required you to justify your position (attack on Zeek), resulting in a type of defense.

Your usage was a strange cure-all for your initial "defense" of me. Except the defense evolved out of your actions, and the explanations for your actions.

The difference in these two cases of "Degrees" is that it is the whole pattern of play this time. Not one basic/early decision.

While you (obviously) agree with me here,
I don't think you should be comparing these two usages of the argument's basis. They are completely different.

Zeek, linking Poro and Ergo is a bit difficult. I've been able to do it easily because Poro won't vote for anyone else (unless he's changed that stance lately) and I'm fairly certian of you and destructor.

-Poro switching his vote from Ergo to me during the Ripley debaucle, while saying he was going to vote for one of us, is very strange and waify. A suspicion (a true suspicion) of Ergo has not factored into any of his play or reasoning.

Okay, that's my piece.

[Porochaz]

Come on Ergo, like seriously if we were to reach into a bag and pull out the red sweets... you're clearly missing the joke.

I used this as a comparison which people rubbished, so why are you still using it, unless your slagging me off?

My stance has changed slightly, whilst my vote is on you firmly, if we were heading towards a deadline then I would consider a destructor lynch. Erg0's replys don't seem scummy, unless hes using his IC status as a front for being scum (which Ive read in other games, not from him) now that would just be shite and I hope he isn't doing that, I dont think hes doing that.

[ZeekLTK]

My stance has changed slightly,

whilst my vote is on you firmly

, if we were heading towards a deadline then I would consider a destructor lynch. Erg0's replys don't seem scummy, unless hes using his IC status as a front for being scum (which Ive read in other games, not from him) now that would just be shite and I hope he isn't doing that, I dont think hes doing that.

???

Your vote isn't on anyone right now...

[Porochaz]

Oh yeah your right everyones spoken now so Ill be good to my word

vote Civil Scum

[Civil Scum]

Destructor and Zeek. Please consider my point. Reasonable WIFOM.

vote: Ergo

[pablito]

Vote Count

Civil Scum (1): Porochaz
Erg0 (1): Civil Scum

Not Voting: ZeekLTK, destructor, Erg0

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch!

[destructor]

Q: Why was a lack of response within this time, which is really not that long, enough to make you vote?
A: ...I was willing to wait for a response, but was itching. I like people to know where I stand maybe? I usually have my vote on someone. My voting changes instantly, uh. You're sort of asking me to explain a trait.

Well, then the question becomes, why didn't you vote according to your trait, instead of posting and waiting (less than 12 hours) for a reaction? And to answer your question, the significance of the delay is the questions it raises. That the vote came not long after a post in which you may as well have made it is what's significant.

You wanted to (were itching to) vote for me, but waited... because?

I believe that I understand some of what you're getting at here. From a CS/Ergo standpoint it would make very good sense for us to get the first two votes in. You are very seriously trying to piece together whether I am Ergo's scum partner.

No, that's not really what I was thinking, but funny that you bought it up. I'm just trying to discern the intentions behind your actions that aren't obvious to me.

For the record, anytime I accepted Ergo's explanations easily or agreed with him D-2 was for the express reason of making him believe I would work with him. This obviously failed, and he is fixing to come after me.

This seems like something that is easy to say in retrospect. Why didn't you say this earlier? That's a huge statement to make at this point in the game. I also find this hard to believe given that you've been attacking Erg0 for a good part of Day 2, yet only mention this 'trap' now. Why did you even start doing that? Did you think Erg0 was scum way back in Post 81 in Day 1? If not, why would you want to mislead a Town player?

I wasn't a big fan of some of destructor's theories on relative scumminess (or his strong insistence that he not be held accountable for leet's actions)

What are the theories you're referring to?

The reason I bought the whole "I'm not leet" thing up was to put it out there that I can't really answer question about what leet was trying to do with his posts, given that I'm not him. I still insist that if anyone wants to read leet's posts and use them as evidence, then go for it, but just understand that

I

can't answer questions about them very meaningfully.

I need to read the latest posts more closely. They've given me plenty of new food for thought.

[ZeekLTK]

Destructor and Zeek. Please consider my point. Reasonable WIFOM.

I've called Erg0 out for WIFOM several times already, I see your point... throughout this day I've been pretty sure it's Erg0 and nothing has happened to change my mind.

Vote: Erg0

[destructor]

I concur.

Vote: Erg0

[ZeekLTK]

[ZeekLTK]

Good game guys, it was fun.

Good job destructor.

[pablito]

Final Vote Count

Erg0 (3): Civil Scum, ZeekLTK, destructor
Civil Scum (1): Porochaz

Not Voting: Erg0

And with that Day 2 ends after many lengthy discussions.

Was Erg0 mafia or town? Have the mafia won or is there one last chance to beat the mafia?

Before we find out, let's find out more about what happened during Night 1.

Ripley [phone call]

: So I hear you have some information on Erg0? I need to find out if he has ties to the mafia here in town or not. This could be a life-or-death situation here.

Other line

: Really?

Ripley

: Yes.

*click*
*boom*

Other line

: Hello? Hello?

Mafia

: Don't worry about Ripley anymore, he's dead.
Other line: I just wanted to let him know that

Erg0 is just any everday townie.

Mafia

: I know. Let's keep that our secret.

Oh no!

Erg0, vanilla townie

was lynched!

With only two vs. two, the mafia is no longer afraid to hide itself and kills the others!

Mafia, ZeekLTK and destructor win!

[pablito]

Setup:

2 mafia vs. 1 cop and 4 townies.

N1:
Ripley investigates Erg0 (dies before result)
ZeekLTK kills Ripley

N2:
Mafia kills others in endgame

[destructor]

w00t

*high-fives Zeek*

Good game all! =)

Are most newbie games as content-laden as this one?

Erg0, you don't know the relief I felt when I read your summary of me! I was so sure you were on to me...

And reading the thread after accepting to replace, I was wondering if joining this game was a mistake! I learnt heaps this game. Thanks to pablito for running it and the other players for making it happen. =)

[destructor]

"I was wondering if joining this game was a mistake"

Heh, what I meant is that I thought I was replacing into a tricky position. But I think that made me up my game, which was a good thing.

[Ripley]

Well done you two.

I spent a long time debating my night choice although I thought there was a good chance I wouldn't live to tell you. Civil Scum and Erg0 seemed to be leading the pack in terms of suspicion so I really needed to investigate one of those two.

I looked hard at all the possible pairings and came to the conclusion if Erg0 was innocent Zeek was almost definitely scum, whereas if CS was innocent there wasn't a clear scum, so Erg0 was the choice to go for. My working is here if it's of any interest:

If ERG innocent and I investigate him

POR CS so unlikely that if both alive, vote third
CS DES v unlikely, if both alive vote third

so if ERG innocent ZEE scum

if CS innocent and I investigate him

DES ERG alive, vote third
POR ERG – less clear

so ERG best choice

Incidentally, the only comment in my notes about the Zeek/destructor scum pair was:

DES ZEE – Nothing!

The two of them had steered clear of each other so thoroughly that I hadn't found a single piece of evidence either way.

[Porochaz]

Civil, I still think your scum, I know the games over and all but... you know, it just seems to obvious...

lynch Civil Damnit!

I had a thought it may be a Zeek/Erg0 pairing a few days ago simply because I didnt suspect them... and that I would look like such a fool if it was them. Well, an even bigger fool now...

Well done to the mafia!

Lessons learned:Major tunnel vision is uncool and hard to get out of, even when your starting to feel like its crumbling round about you.

[Porochaz]

eta good game everyone

[Garnasha]

Somehow destructor repaired the damage leetonicon had done day one, so he was in my mind only a "look at this again when you've done all the urgent stuff". Zeek was the most obvious townie in the game as far as I could see. Only scumtell I got off him was his hammering me, which was explained away by the deadline. Very good play by mafia here.

Even now the game is over, I'm gonna stick to my vote:

CS

. Scumbag .

[Garnasha]

pablito, what did you think while watching this game? I liked you giving your thoughts on newbie 479.

[Civil Scum]

I'm at a loss for words right now...I was convinced that Ergo and I were in a competition to win over Destructor and votes either way.

Zeek, you're frustration and reasoning seemed very genuine. I just had no clue. Sorry Ripley. Not sorry Garn Poro, would have liked to have been scum with you that game, hilarious.

Now that I think about it. The reasonable WIFOM argument I was making near the end of the game also makes good sense if neither Ergo nor I are scum.


Good game.

[Porochaz]

If we were scum in that game, I think it would have been a great game if we were scum together. Out of interest are you staying on the forum now, or have you satisfied your "blaze of glory" that you were talking about earlier on in the thread?