Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[YvonneSeer]

I just noticed the thread. Looks like it's going to be a fun game!

Well, waiting patiently for my drafting turn...

[YvonneSeer]

Oops, my turn already.

Claude please.

[YvonneSeer]

vote: Oman

For drafting the role that I originally wanted.

[YvonneSeer]

If I'm not mistaken, the NKs are non-Powers and therefore cannot be redirected, so a pro-town Eden would not be able to determine the scum or SK using that method. I've given Eden quite a bit of thought as it was a role that I had originally wanted and I think it's quite a versatile role and can be potentially very dangerous if scum or SK have this role.

[YvonneSeer]

Well, let's see if I can contribute a little to this discussion.

I think Eden, Nathan and Peter are dangerous in the hands of scum, especially if two or more are partnered together, and can cause a lot chaos in town without town realising it.

HRG and the Haitian will be very helpful if pro-town but the Haitian's immunity to Powers has a lot more advantage as anti-town. If the Haitian is pro-town, the immunity is useful only to prevent anti-town Ted from suiciding on him and anti-town Eden from redirecting him. So I do agree that HRG is more pro-town than the Haitian if you go by a certain logic.

Ted is... well, not very helpful as scum and even worse as an SK. Anti-town Linderman is useless too, other than the town not having a doc.

Ando? Ando is Ando and nothing more can be said about him.

I don't have anything on Mohinder and DL though and I would be interested in some discussion about their respective abilities and usefulness as pro-town and danger as anti-town.

And finally, we have the Investigation Roles. Matt and Claude are just the usual Tracker and Watcher stuff. I personally think they are more helpful as pro-town than anti-town but it might be WIFOM since I'm Claude.

Now, I haven't actually looked into all the roles into the finest detail but that's what I've gathered from first and second impressions.

[YvonneSeer]

Since there has been actual discussion, how about actual comments about the players in this game? THis discussion is bad insofar as it doesn't get us any closer to finding scum.

Among the players who have posted in the game so far, I find mathcam the most pro-town because I agree with what he has come up with. I think that discussion of the roles is helpful to know what powers that the scum we're up against have. I understand that we've had nothing much from this discussion yet but still, it's also hard to find scum when some have yet to make a post.

Though I will say that I'll be watching two players for now: CKD and you, TSQ. CKD, I think, was a little too opportunistic in voting mathcam after shaft.ed did. But it's been resolved as a misunderstanding, so I'll just keep an eye on him.

TSQ, I really didn't like your early FoSes on mathcam and JDodge with no explanation. It looked a lot like third-party OMGUS on behalf of CKD. Now, I didn't point anything out at first because I wanted to see what CKD was up to. But since it's been resolved as another misunderstanding, and you've explained yourself properly, there is nothing further to say about it. My other eye will be on you though, just in case you had conveniently made a reasonable excuse and escaped.

[YvonneSeer]

Also I've been rolling it over in my head this weekend and Eden is in fact the most dangerous role to the town, not the Haitian. This is because the Haitian's power can be contained where Eden's can "get out." The Haitian's power make us know that JDodge is unTrackable and Vigable, but if they were picked up by Sylar they would be of little use because

once a "dampened" result is obtained Sylar will be found out

. So the threat stays with JDodge. However, if Sylar kills Oman and picks up the redirection, we will have no way of knowing whether any of our investigation results are worth anything. This negates a good portion of our protown powers. While it wouldn't be that big of a problem if they power were to be steadfastly remaining with Oman since he can be Dampened, Jailed or Tracked, the danger of the powers escaping is real. And having the Jailkeeper's target choreographed each day is also a big problem. Thus I rescind my earlier analysis and agree that Oman's role is an inherently greater threat than JDodge's.

Sorry, I don't understand. How will the SK be found out through this?

In a further power analysis I have to say I found some of Yvonne's comments off.

I think Eden, Nathan and Peter are dangerous in the hands of scum, especially if two or more are partnered together, and can cause a lot chaos in town without town realising it.

This is a very curosry analysis. I fail to see how my powers are extremely dangerous to the town. It's not like people won't be able to elucidate who I targeted. I expect if tommorow comes and I haven't targeted the Watcher, Tracker or Doc I'm going to be under a large amount of pressure.

And what if you're scum with one of the three you stated? It would be simple to lie about results. True, Nathan is not dangerous on his own, but once he starts motivating his scum partners if they have dangerous powers, he doubles the threat to town and I would indeed classify that as a danger to town.

HRG and the Haitian will be very helpful if pro-town but the Haitian's immunity to Powers has a lot more advantage as anti-town. If the Haitian is pro-town, the immunity is useful only to prevent anti-town Ted from suiciding on him and anti-town Eden from redirecting him. So I do agree that HRG is more pro-town than the Haitian if you go by a certain logic.

As I've stated before the Haitian is hardly a protown role. The threat of a scum Ted kill is largest if he is close to lynch when the Haitian cannot dampen him. The only good thing the Haitian gives the town is control over the Redirection which will be moot if picked up by Sylar.

You are underestimating the Haitian. While not as pro-town as HRG, he can still block anti-town Peter and Nathan, whom I still believe are more dangerous to town than most other roles, in addition to anti-town Eden. I don't think you can dismiss the Haitian as hardly a pro-town role. If we go by your line of thought, since Eden is most dangerous as scum, she cannot be pro-town at all, which is not true.

Matt and Claude are just the usual Tracker and Watcher stuff. I personally think they are more helpful as pro-town than anti-town but it might be WIFOM since I'm Claude.

Given the set up of two killing groups having them around as scum may not be bad in the early goings. But noone should get a free pass based on their role.

I agree 100%. I never said we should base scumminess on roles. Overall, I just want the town to know the kind of roles that could hurt us in the hands of scum and also, perhaps at the same time, we can find a way to optimise the usage of our roles to help town.

As far as players go, I haven't noticed any big transgressions. CKD's attacking of Mathcam was a bit much, but I did the same for even poorer reasons.

My replies in bold.

[YvonneSeer]

Mod:

If Eden targets Peter on the first night, nothing will happen since he has no Power to use, but will Peter still gain her Power?

[YvonneSeer]

Right, sorry for misusing the term!

Potentially, if Oman thinks he knows better who they should track/watch than they themselves, he could use his ability to 'help' them. I certainly wouldn't recommend that, though.

I definitely don't recommend it at all. I wouldn't know that I had been redirected and I would assume my results came from my original target. Even if Oman comes right out and tells me who he redirected me towards, I would have a hard time figuring out whether he is telling the truth or lying scum.

[YvonneSeer]

Is their any role that people would definitely not like me to protect tonight?

DL. If he is pro-town, he can protect himself using his own abilities and your protection would be wasted on him. Well, that's what I think anyway. Feel free to protect DL on the nights that he has not or cannot phase out if you can guess them right.

And, if it isn't obvious yet, the Haitian. Because you can't protect him.

[YvonneSeer]

And what if Adele's scum? Passing on powers means the investigation roles have essentially wasted one night. Also, she would be drawing the doc's protection if we want to give her that power. No, I can't say I like this idea at all.

I'm also not keen on making her a backup either. If she's anti-town, it would give her some sort of safety from being lynched if, say, the original roles got NK-ed and she is the only one left with their powers.

But if we really want to or have to give her some powers, I would suggest giving her only one a night, so the others can still use their powers and we wouldn't be at a total loss. She can only use one power a night anyway, so we could give her the most helpful one on the first night and less important ones on subsequent nights.

[YvonneSeer]

Okay, I think I've got an idea about how to optimally utilise Matt, Peter, Nathan and myself.

Night 1: Nathan motivates Matt or me. The one who gets motivated uses one target to pass on the power to Peter and uses the other target ordinarily.

Night 2: Nathan motivates the other one.

Night 3 onwards: Free for all.

If any of us are not motivated or if Peter does not receive the investigative power, then we may have found the anti-town among our small circle.

Also, that way, every night we'll still have results while passing our powers to Peter. How's that sound?

[YvonneSeer]

I suppose your right, if im to apply the same lodgic you should get a FOS but your vote is on Gordon and if I had the choice of losing either role it would be his. Now if it was a choice between yours and Zace that might be different. What did you want to hear?

Hold on there, david, what exactly do you mean when you say you'd rather lose Gorgon than CKD based on their roles. That doesn't sound right. We should be lynching based on scumminess, not on usefulness of roles. Also, it's almost as if you're FoSing players just for the sake of FoSing.

I don't like that at all.

FoS david

.

[YvonneSeer]

What do you mean "should be"? Our job is to make the best lynch possible, not follow some ideals of the proper way of conducting business. If it's a better play to lynch someone because of their role, then that's what we have to do. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case in this particular situation, but it's not something to be ruled out either.

No, david implied that Gorgon's role was less useful than CKD's and therefore more comfortable with lynching him. I don't believe that it's better play to lynch roles who are less useful, and that's why I questioned david's motives.

[YvonneSeer]

Oops, simulpost.

Sorry david, I wasn't actually doubting your sincerity to contribute but rather I thought you were throwing your FoSes in a lot of directions.

And regarding the lynching based on roles, I disagree with you. If I were in the scenario you just described, I would have no qualms about lynching the more useful role if I personally feel he/she was scummier than the less useful role.

[YvonneSeer]

I won't lie about my results, that's for sure.

Anyway, most of you keep mentioning passing the investigative powers to Adele. Mind telling me how we go about doing that without coordination?

[YvonneSeer]

Urgh, sorry I forgot about this game. I'll read up now.

[YvonneSeer]

I don't find anyone particularly scummy. My vote on Oman starts all the way back from the random stage but only because there is no one else that needs my vote more. I guess it's probably gonna be Oman or No Lynch for me.

Going by instinct however, I've a generally bad feeling about Adele. Can't really explain it, it's been like this since early D1.

[YvonneSeer]

How so, shaft.ed?

[YvonneSeer]

So, erm, only one kill last night. Anybody got any useful information to share?

[YvonneSeer]

Err, okay, before anyone else reveals, I think DGB and ckd should probably go next because of their abilities. What do you all think?

Also, discuss whether Gorgon should or should not reveal whether he phased out on nights.

[YvonneSeer]

Maybe we should also discuss whether or not YvonneSeer is Sylar?

I'm not. End of discussion.

But seriously though, what makes you think I'm the SK?

[YvonneSeer]

He's the person in the game that would most like to know whether or not Gorgon phased out last night. I can't see any townie wanting to make that information public, however it would be mildly useful to mafia.

Who's "he"? Are you talking about me? I'm a girl.

Anyway, you're kinda jumping to conclusions too quickly. I'm asking for public opinion on whether Gorgon should reveal or not, since someone said we should all reveal. I never even stated that I wanted Gorgon to reveal.

Yvonne, hae you confirmed that you were able to target two people last night?

I'll confirm this after DGB claims.

[YvonneSeer]

Err, damn I'm terribly slow with these kinds of things. Is it because I asked DGB and ckd to claim before me?

Or is it something to do with my role...

[YvonneSeer]

Hmm? But the SK can use a power in addition to his NK.

[YvonneSeer]

Yes, in fact, Gorgon is most likely to be the SK at this point, and a rather dangerous SK if so.

[YvonneSeer]

Yes, in fact, Gorgon is most likely to be the SK at this point, and a rather dangerous SK if so.

I'd argue Gogron is the least likely to be the SK. CKD is basically a SK Doc, he targeted Gorgon and no one was killed by the SK last night. It's not rocket science.

Or, Gorgon is the SK and he got Jailed.

[YvonneSeer]

Yeah. Im not sure Shaft.ed fully gets the role. Or maybe I dont. As I understand it, the point is Sylar cant kill if he's jailed. (a jailkeeper isnt a doctor. It's a doctor AND full role blocker combo). So the fact that Sylar didnt kill last night points to Gorgon directly as being the SK.

No, shaft.ed is also right. It could either be that the SK targetted a Jailed Gorgon or a Jailed Gorgon could not perform the SK kill.

[YvonneSeer]

Well simple numerical odds are greatly in favor of Gorgon being the SK. But it should be noted that Gorgon's role is probably one of the most useful to the SK if not the most so he would be a likely target.

Exactly. That's why I said Gorgon would make a rather dangerous SK if he was one.

Well, maybe one way to go about this, is for ckd to continue jailing Gorgon and see if there are still no SK kills.

[YvonneSeer]

Then... less deaths for us until he decides to kill.

[YvonneSeer]

I find that doubtful

QFT. If he didn't want to get caught he could have just killed Yvonne then noone can link it to him. There's no other danger involved.

Don't be giving ideas for the SK, man.

[YvonneSeer]

I got motivated. My watch targets were Adele and shaft.ed.

Nobody targetted Adele.

And cicero did indeed target shaft.ed.

[YvonneSeer]

I can confirm that Yvonne targeted me.

Which makes this statement:

Nobody targetted Adele.

A

lie

!!!

Ouch.

I passed on my powers 'cause I thought the SK would kill me last night. The voices in my head are still screaming "

Adele's scum!!!

". No idea why.

If you're pro-town, then all's well. If you're not, then let me catch you in a lie. I'll be watching.

[YvonneSeer]

Could Goof be Sylar? A Goof-sylar could dampen Gorgon's ability to hide, and kill him the same night.

Hiding comes before dampening.

[YvonneSeer]

I got motivated. My watch targets were Adele and shaft.ed.

Nobody targetted Adele.

And cicero did indeed target shaft.ed.

I'm finding this bit about me VERY out of place. There's very little reason for a scum group to kill me. Sylar would get nothing form the motivation, and scum would likely keep me around after pushing a mislynch so hard.

It's also very handy that cicero already admitted to targeting me

. I'm finding this choice very suspicious.

FoS Yvonne

(bolding added) - no, that's a result of her waiting towards the end; she could have faked any number of results, but since she's statistically more likely to be town than scum it made sense for her to be in a position of the Sword or Truth; if anyone had lied that they had or hadn't targeted me or shaft.ed, that'd be a good lynch for the day right there. She's useful in that she makes lying hard/dangerous for scum about nightchoices - as, now, am I.

Sylar might want you dead, too, if there's any other role he's scared of. Maybe the tracker or watcher could catch him using an acquired power (that's how I'd run it; I'd have to check with Seol for specifics) and you double that danger, while being relatively unlikely to be protected.

I see what shaft.ed means though. It does look like a rather safe claim to make. But the thing is, it's better that I claim at the end, or scum can make safe claims and avoid anybody that I said I had watched. Also, now that there are two watchers, it's easier to catch one or the other if we lie about our results because stuff is just not gonna fit in together.

And yes, I thought shaft.ed was a likely NK target and I still think so.

[YvonneSeer]

Here's what we know.

The Sylar kill was either of Gorgon, or by Gorgon. CKD's ability is the only one which can prevent a Sylar kill, so we know that CKD must have used it. He could have lied about who he used it

on

, though that's extremely risky so I'd say it's overwhelmingly likely he's telling the truth about last night.

So:


Those we can prove used their abilities:

cicero
Yvonne
shaft.ed
CKD

He who cannot have committed the mafia kill:

Gorgon

That means the mafia killer is amongst this group:

(me)
DGB
mathcam
Adele
TSQ

Fonz, what do you suggest we do with this information?

[YvonneSeer]

Those we can prove used their abilities:

cicero
Yvonne
shaft.ed
CKD

He who cannot have committed the mafia kill:

Gorgon

That means the mafia killer is amongst this group:

(me)
DGB
mathcam
Adele
TSQ

cicero could be in cahoots with shafted (ie. both scum together, agreed that cicero would claim he targeted shafted and Shafted would confirm this; I'm not saying it's probable, merely that we don't "know" theat cicero didn't perform the kill)
ckd could be in cahoots with Gorgon (plan gone awry due to lack of SK-kill)

So I think you need to add cicero, CKD and Gorgon to the list - leaving just two people who definately didn't perform the kill, but could still be scum.
Could have performed it (I think):
Fonz
DGB
mathcam
Adele
TSQ
Cicero
Gorgon
CKD

Adele, I watched shaft.ed, remember? So I can confirm cicero targetted shaft.ed. Though there is the possibility that one might think cicero, shaft.ed and I are all scum together.

[YvonneSeer]

Unlikely, though. OK, so probably not Cicero.
Is there any reason why Gorgon or CKD couldn't've if they were working together though? In any case, that's not really enough information; we can't narrow the list down over several nights as the killer this night coming could be one of the people cleared of killing last night, and stuff. So out of ten living players containing 3 scum we have a list of seven containing at least 1. So, we've discovered that Yvonne, cicero and shaft.ed can't

all

be scum (working from the assumption that Yvonne, cicero and shaft.ed aren't all scum).

Is that what we've learned?

I guess they could be scum together or CKD could be scum alone. Either way, you're right, we can't remove them from the list of possible killers. I don't think this list is very helpful. And that's why I've asked Fonz what we could do with the information. From the looks of it, not much.

[YvonneSeer]

What about having ckd jail Gorgon every night from now on?

[YvonneSeer]

DGB, please show me where I "pushed for a Gorgon lynch".

[YvonneSeer]

None of those posts show that I wanted Gorgon as a D2 lynch. In fact, I wasn't even convinced about the argument that Gorgon had a 50/50 chance of being SK and therefore, he would be a good lynch for D2. And that's exactly why I suggested CKD continue jailing Gorgon and see where it goes from then.

I never even wanted Gorgon lynched on D2 but you're saying I pushed for his lynch?

[YvonneSeer]

Don't I go last?

[YvonneSeer]

No, I will go last.

[YvonneSeer]

Because there are other possibilities to your failed action.

And I'm going last so that I can catch the liars, not the other way round.

[YvonneSeer]

Nobody, except Adele, but she must go before me today since something's happened which involves her.

Also, all the players have to tell the truth if they go before me because they don't know my result. If I go first, the scum can escape easily and there is essentially no use to my role.

[YvonneSeer]

I will claim next but only after all the other players agree with this. I don't want to claim if there's a possibility that the majority of the players who are asking for it are the scum. Anyway, I've got cicero, CKD and shaft.ed holding me at gunpoint so far, and if there are any others who want me to claim immediately, go ahead and voice it out.

[YvonneSeer]

Nobody, except Adele, but she must go before me today since something's happened which involves her.

Also, all the players have to tell the truth if they go before me because they don't know my result. If I go first, the scum can escape easily and there is essentially no use to my role.

How do you know Adele can catch you lying? You targetted her again last night? Why? Are you refusing to claim now?

It should be obvious that one watcher can easily catch another watcher in a lie. The only thing you need to worry about is if Adele and I are both scum together, otherwise I can catch Adele if she lies as scum and vice versa.

Also, you already jailed one watcher and now, you want the other to claim ahead of others. So much for having the information roles catch the scum in this game. The scum are going to be able to make safe claims easily now.

[YvonneSeer]

Amazing 180 from some of you. I thought we all agreed that the watchers would go last since they could catch the most amount of potential liars (and also each other if they lie) in a hypothethical situation, but apparently I thought wrong. In the first place, those of you who didn't even agree with watchers going last, you should have voiced out yesterday, not make a big fuss the following day. Also, my reluctance to have the scum make safe claims easily makes me scummy?

[YvonneSeer]

I did say majority, didn't I? Among the five of you, there could possibly only be two townies who are being led by scum. But, whatever. I give up on you guys. For those of you who are townies, you're losing a helpful role and I can't catch scum with my role today.

I watched Fonz and nobody targetted him.

Knock yourselves out, scum.

[YvonneSeer]

Yvonne, why did you target the Fonz?

One of the likely NK targets to me. But seeing as the doc is still alive after two nights makes me a little suspicious of Fonz himself.

[YvonneSeer]

Yvonne, why did you target the Fonz?

One of the likely NK targets to me. But seeing as the doc is still alive after two nights makes me a little suspicious of Fonz himself.

Do you really think it that unlikely that the scum were afraid of me being watched, and therefore went for a less obvious target? Especially since you claim to have

actually done so

. The same applies to you or Adele equally as much as it does to me- why did the scum not get rid of the remaining investigative roles? The exact same arguments apply on both sides in this case.

Fine, I guess me being alive is also suspect, but in my case, it's most probably because a lot of you view me as scummy, so it only makes sense to keep me alive.

I haven't seen any scumminess from you and I don't think anyone has pointed out anything about you either. You're basically clean and you're still alive with a rather helpful role if pro-town. You can't blame me for being a little suspicious about that.

[YvonneSeer]

Then, I stand corrected.

[YvonneSeer]

Those of you who have me very high up on the naughty list, could you please post an overall case as to why you think I'm scum? Put in as many tiny details if you want, as long as you think it's relevant to me being scum. Don't do word-heavy walls of text though. Keep it short and simple, thanks.

Oh, and no "I agree with Player X" after Player X has posted his case against me. Even if you have nothing new to add, rewrite the damn thing in your own words if you must.

[YvonneSeer]

put in tiny details, but you dont words of text...(laughing)..you are even directing how someone can provide a case against you.

Tiny

relevant

details and walls of text

that beat around the bush

, have nothing to do with each other. Don't make

me

laugh.

So, is that all you have against me so far?

here I will make is simple.

have you scum hunted at all this game?

You see, I tried to use my watcher role and hopefully catch lying scum but some players refused to allow me to do my job properly. Other than that, I haven't gone after players as aggressively as others, but that shouldn't be counted as sitting back and doing nothing, if that's what you're saying. Also, multiple players are attacking me of being scum, it's terribly difficult to distinguish between those who are spouting nonsense and those who are actual scum. But I'm doing my best now, even as I speak, so don't you worry.

you refused to go claim until Fonz practically told you (or gave away) the best claim for the moment.

I have a little surprise for you. Here it is: I wanted to do what is best for the town, which is by claiming last because I can catch the most amount of potential liars and I obviously know I'm town. But wait, didn't you just use "what was best for town" to explain why you locked Adele? So you should be excused for that, but I shouldn't?

You tried to direct me yesterday by telling me I should spend the rest of the game jailing gorgon, why, were you afraid I might jail someone else?

So did Adele, and shaft.ed agreed as well. But I'm the only one getting called out for it and it's not even scummy. You don't like people directing you, fine. I didn't even bother trying to convince you about the potential benefits since you're all high and mighty and won't have the time of day for lowlife such as myself, right? Plus, if you jailed Gorgon (who we now know is the SK), there wouldn't have been an additional NK and by your logic, I'm scum since I don't want more townies to die.

Also, good job putting words in my mouth; "spend the rest of the game jailing gorgon" indeed. Err, why don't you read back and see what I said instead of writing your own story.

[YvonneSeer]

Okay, DGB, if that's all you got, then we shall begin.

YvonneSeer:
"I find mathcam the most pro-town because I agree with what he has come up with."

Ouch. Hail to the mainframe.

"CKD, I think, was a little too opportunistic in voting mathcam after shaft.ed did"

Hmmm, defending matchcam again.

"TSQ, I really didn't like your early FoSes on mathcam"

Hmmm, here's mathcam again.

Hmmm, mathcam turns out to be town.

"Sorry, I don't understand. How will the SK be found out through this?"

Hmmm. Very concerned with SK.

"But seriously though, what makes you think I'm the SK?"

Hmmmm. It's like, how did you catch me?

"Hmm? But the SK can use a power in addition to his NK."

Hmmmm. Acutely aware of SK etc.

"Yes, in fact, Gorgon is most likely to be the SK at this point, and a rather dangerous SK if so."

Hmmmm. Now that SHE's accused of being SK, suddenly, she stops defending Gorgon, she ACCUSES Gorgon.

"Or, Gorgon is the SK and he got Jailed."

Hmmm. Did she think of this all night when deciding who to kill?

"No, shaft.ed is also right. It could either be that the SK targetted a Jailed Gorgon or a Jailed Gorgon could not perform the SK kill."

Hmmmm. In the know, much?

"Don't be giving ideas for the SK, man."

Hmmm. Almost obsessed with SK.

"I passed on my powers 'cause I thought the SK would kill me last night. The voices in my head are still screaming "Adele's scum!!!". No idea why."

Hmmm. Again that bizarre obsession with the SK.

Hmmm. SK is dead.

"Hold on there, david, what exactly do you mean when you say you'd rather lose Gorgon than CKD based on their roles."

Hmmm. Protects Gorgon.

"Also, discuss whether Gorgon should or should not reveal whether he phased out on nights."

Hmmm. Avoids forcing Gorgon, only discussion.

Hmmm. Gorgon turns out to be SK.

"Going by instinct however, I've a generally bad feeling about Adele. Can't really explain it"

Hmmmm. Maybe she's your buddy.

Hmmm. Maybe she's yours.

"My targets were Adele and shaft.ed."

Hmmmm. I understand Adele, but why shafted? YOU never suspected shafted.

Hmmm. I'm a watcher, not a tracker.

"What about having ckd jail Gorgon every night from now on?"

WOW.

WOW.

Yvonne Seer:

The only question I have regarding her, is whether she's the SK, or whether she's scum.

I would lean scum, because of the way she linked herself to some players, but completely ignored others.

She' linked to:

mathcam

: early defense scumtell.

Gorgon

: protects a lot in indirect ways scumtell.

Adele

: thinks Adele is scum for no real reason, distancing scumtell.

shafted

: strange night choice scumtell.

The manner in which she links herself to a short player list with either defense or baseless distancing screams scum to me, rather than SK.

The SK obsession is just weird. I think she's trying to look like she's looking hard for the SK, because she's the SK.

QUESTION ABOUT THE SETUP:
Is there a reason for the scum to obsess about the SK? Or should the town obsess with the SK for some reason?

You thought I'm the SK, because I was apparently obsessed with the SK. Now that the SK is dead, do you have another crazy explanation as to why I was apparently obsessed with the SK? If you don't, I'll tell you why. It's because I wasn't obsessed with the SK, it was a figment of your imagination.

You say I defend players. From that list, the two I apparently defended is one now known to be a townie, and the other the SK. So, this defense scumtell that you have... is it working or what?

And you try to pair me off with Adele. Why? Maybe she's

your

scumbuddy and you're trying to pin me to her, so that I go down with her if she's ever lynched. And there's no strange night choice about shaft.ed. I'm a watcher, not a tracker.

Regarding my reluctance to claim before others, I explained it in Post 1002 in response to CKD's own case against me.

Overall, as I can see, you have no case against me.

[YvonneSeer]

That's rubbish, Yvonne, because I expect the scum would be acutely concerned with getting rid of Sylar. But then you weren't certain that Gorgon was the SK, so that you didn't want to compromise yourself voting for him, because he might have been a townie.

So, I didn't want to follow massively popular opinion that Gorgon was the right lynch for the day and get a free pass to mislynch a townie?

[YvonneSeer]

Really? Adele didnt get call out for it? ever? I didnt call her on it yesterday? I didnt block her last night because I thought is was scummy? Question Yvonne, do you feel you did something that was worth getting "called out" on?

I'm sorry I don't think it's worth getting called out on. As I said, you jailing Gorgon had its benefits and it was a safe thing to do because we don't know your alignment and if you were the SK and targetted a hidden Gorgon, we lynch a townie Gorgon and no additional information is gained regarding who the SK might be. It wasn't as simple as 50/50. If you were the SK and you had to keep "jailing" Gorgon, you wouldn't kill unless you wanted town to know that Gorgon wasn't the SK. And as it turned out, Gorgon was the SK, so even if you jailed him one more night, it wouldn't harm you and he would still be a jailed SK and we might have lynched mafia yesterday. There is no reason why I'm scum for having suggested this. If anything, it's a matter of different opinions to optimal play.

When did you ever suggest that Adele might be scum for "directing" you? And what about shaft.ed? I'm not asking you to pile pressure on these two, I'm questioning the fact that I'm the only one being picked out for apparently doing something scummy when two other players did it as well.

So your answer is no then? Funny you don’t have follow up questions? You are not trying to pry out information? Nothing bothers you enough to comment on? Nice.

I am scumhunting as we speak. Specifically, I firstly want to scumhunt among those who think I'm scum, which is why I asked for the cases against me.

Tell me Yvonne..at the point that I demanded that you claim, what liars did you think you could catch that hadn’t claimed yet?

If I recall correctly, DGB and shaft.ed had not claimed yet. DGB has a shady claim yet again and shaft.ed targetted a jailed Adele. Either of these two could have made the kill and needed a safe claim.

Whether is was a slip up or deliberate, Fonz let you know in this post that he did indeed protect and it was one just one player.

I don't see what this has to do with me?

I am sorry the “continue” lead me to believe that you wanted me to continue jailing gorgon until we figured something out. The mafia sure as hell wouldnt try to kill gorgon when they knew I was being directed to jail him, so at what point would we know something for a fact?

We would know if there were no SK kills. And if the SK chose not to kill in order to implicate Gorgon, then all the better for us townies.

[YvonneSeer]

@shaft.ed: I thought I already answered that question when I replied to CKD. You and DGB had yet to claim and there exists a possibility that either of you made the kill and needed safe claims, so yes, you're both potential liars that I can catch.

@Other players: I can see quite a few problems with No Lynch that will come up tomorrow. I don't know if they've already been discussed (since there's been a lot of posts recently and I haven't read them all yet) but I don't want to mention anything specifically since it might give scum ideas. I think I'd rather risk the lynch today.

I think cicero is likely town. There's absolutely no reason for him to be scum and prevent a mislynch today by defending me, especially since I was the easiest target and we are in some sort of potential lylo.

CKD, I'm still not so sure. I was wary of him being scum trying to get a townie (Gorgon) lynched yesterday. Well, I was obviously wrong. One thing I want to point out is that he's mentioned quite a few times that he should not be the play for today since he's one of the roles who can stop an NK, and also he's got two confirmed night actions. But this should not be a factor in deciding whether he should be lynched or not. Example, if say... CKD, Fonz and cicero are scum. According to that kind of logic, we shouldn't lynch CKD and Fonz since they can stop NKs and cicero has two confirmed night actions. Then, who do we lynch instead? Townies? (Disclaimer: This is just an example and does not accurately describe the writer's suspicions.)

The jailing of Adele is strange. Someone mentioned that watchers would be caught if they make up fake results, and I agree with that, which is why I gave Adele my power (I mentioned this somewhere in D2) because if she was scum, I could catch her lying. So I don't understand why CKD thought it was a good idea.

But overall, if I were to place bets, I think he's more likely to be town than scum though he's awfully stubborn and refuses to see things from another point of view. It's almost as if he thinks anyone who disagrees with him is scum and he's also terribly afraid of players whom he claims are trying to direct him.

And I've thought things through. DGB is most likely scum. She pushed a case against me which I have since disproved. She makes up a reason to lynch me by insisting I initially "pushed" for Gorgon's lynch yesterday and then backed down. This never happened. She's made two very weird night actions now, both of which also cannot be confirmed. I think she is the killer on both nights.

vote DGB

[YvonneSeer]

I was wary of him being scum trying to get a townie (Gorgon) lynched yesterday.

How could you have thought the above ^^^
And posted the below:

Yes, in fact, Gorgon is most likely to be the SK at this point, and a rather dangerous SK if so.

Or, Gorgon is the SK and he got Jailed.

Well, maybe one way to go about this, is for ckd to continue jailing Gorgon and see if there are still no SK kills.

What about having ckd jail Gorgon every night from now on?

I am sure there is a perfectly good explanation, I would like to hear it.

There is a perfectly good explanation. By raw probability alone, Gorgon was the most likely to be the SK compared to any other player. That is why I mentioned it when TSQ mistakenly identified me as the most likely to be the SK. But we don't play mafia according to probability. We must also look at other possibilities. And I'll list them out now (although it's now useless and doesn't make a difference):

1. Gorgon is townie, CKD is townie, unknown SK targetted Gorgon.
2. Gorgon is townie, CKD is scum, unknown SK targetted Gorgon.
3. Gorgon is townie, CKD is SK, CKD targetted Gorgon.

As you can see, if Gorgon had been a townie, we would have lynched a townie because of probability and we would not have gained additional information about CKD's alignment or who the SK might be. We would be one townie less and the SK would still be alive.

Hence, I suggested CKD jail Gorgon. From earlier scenarios:

1. Gorgon is townie, CKD is townie, unknown SK targetted Gorgon.
a) Unknown SK targets someone else, Gorgon cleared of being SK, Gorgon and CKD also unlikely to both be scum.
b) Unknown SK no-kills to frame Gorgon, less townie deaths until SK decides to kill.

2. Gorgon is townie, CKD is scum, unknown SK targetted Gorgon.
a) Same as above.
b) Same as above.
c) CKDscum will be tied down by jailing Gorgon, cannot perform mafia kill.

3. Gorgon is townie, CKD is SK, CKD targetted Gorgon.
a) Same as above, except unknown SK = CKD.
b) Same as above, except unknown SK = CKD.

I never mentioned I wanted Gorgon lynched. I said he was the most likely SK because of raw probability alone, but I didn't want to play mafia that way which is why I suggested CKD jail Gorgon, because there is benefit and we can gain information as well. But, you guys ended up right and Gorgon was the SK, so obviously my plan looks like crap today.

Also, why did you not vote for Gorgon after all? Were you afraid to risk your vote on a non-scum lynch, while voicing suspicion that Gorgon was the SK?

I didn't vote for Gorgon because I didn't want to lynch Gorgon. I wanted CKD to jail Gorgon, remember? That wouldn't work if Gorgon was dead, now would it?

Also, you're suggesting that I'm scum who has no idea whether Gorgon is the SK or a townie, but I refused to lynch him and even went against massively popular opinion which decreed that he was the right play for yesterday? You're saying I'm scum because I didn't want to lynch non-scum?

[YvonneSeer]

Hmmm. Nice of Yvonne to show up with something that cries out to be ripped apart.

I think cicero is likely town. There's absolutely no reason for him to be scum and prevent a mislynch today by defending me, especially since I was the easiest target and we are in some sort of potential lylo.

WOAH! Hang on there, sister! For starters, this is premised off your own innocence. Secondly, I'm not sure to what extent he is 'trying to avoid' your lynch when he states that his gut feeling is that you are scum. Also, and this is important: there is no town-tell in preferring the lynch of one town player over another, so for this argument to hold any weight whatsoever, it basically requires CKD (whose lynch cicero

is

pushing) to be scum. Yet you say he's

more likely to be town than scum

and voting DrippingGoofball. What gives?

Erm, I'm speaking from my point of view? Scum will want to mislynch townies and potentially win the game if there are no protects, blocks or whatever. I'm a townie and cicero is not trying to mislynch me. In fact, I was a top lynch candidate and if he was scum, he could have just joined the masses who want me dead, lynch me and win the game.

You say there is no town-tell in preferring the lynch of one town player over another. But you must take into account who is easier to be lynched. How many wanted me lynched and how many want CKD lynched? If cicero is scum who thinks this game is far too easy for him and wants a challenge to lynch a harder target, then I'm wrong and good on him.

Also, on the CKD jailing Gorgon thing. Can you not see why it would be the interests of the mafia, if CKD is town, to suggest such a plan? Town role (one of only two that can stop a scum kill) is tied up indefinitely whilst preventing the SK from killing?

And I ask you back in turn. Can you not see why it would be the interests of town to have suggested that plan? Why specifically have I been chosen to be scum in this situation and not town for suggesting it?

[YvonneSeer]

Yvonne re the Protection question: What I think is troubling Shaft.ed is this. Your answer seemed to infer that by going last you might catch a liar. But then when you were forced to claim early you said you targetted Adele, who you already knew had been jailed. You said no one targetted her. So I think the supposition is that this looks inconsistent. Your response after is that two others had yet to go. But if neither of them targetted Yvonne, what lie could you catch? Do you see the point?

Yeah shaft.ed already pointed this out. I didn't target Adele. I targetted Fonz.

And shaft.ed, did I answer your question?

[YvonneSeer]

Fonz, I never made any argument that CKD is scum. You're completely misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm a townie and cicero did not push for my lynch, when he could have gone along with the majority who wanted me lynched and possibly win the game. He also has not done anything scummy that I can see. Hence, I find him to be likely town.

This is from

my

point of view.

I

find him to be likely town. I didn't ask you or anyone else to think he is town because of the reasons I gave. If you think he's scum, it's unrelated to me since I find him to be town. And why must CKD be automatically scum for cicero to be town? Why can't they both be town? If cicero is looking in all the wrong places for scum, it's hardly my fault, is it?

cicero's Post 1190 explains it all perfectly.

And, Fonz, your argument that I'm scum is mainly because of these few things that I've already explained.

1. Asking CKD to jail Gorgon.
You keep stating that it is a scum-favouring plan but you never thought about the potential benefits from a town perspective. You intentionally choose to put me as scum in this situation, but not as town. Why?

2. Claiming that watchers should go last.
I'm town and I'm a watcher. I just want to use my role as much as I can, by catching the most amount of potential liars if I claim last. Do you or do you not agree that it is the best way to utilise a town watcher?

3. Refusing to claim.
See (2).

[YvonneSeer]

Well if you are going to defend her using that argument, why did she so hastily jump on the Oman wagon (a wagon you were the last vote on). Yvonne, feel free to jump in on this question too.

How was I hasty on Oman's wagon? I was the first vote if I remember correctly.

[YvonneSeer]

Apparently not. Kindly explain please.

[YvonneSeer]

hasty= impatient; impetuous; thoughtless; injudicious; unduly quick; precipitate; rash

Cicero impies that you could be townish by not wanting to jump on the Gorgon wagon so quickly, if you want to use that defense, please explain the hasty Oman vote.

I still don't get it. My vote on Oman was a random vote that eventually evolved into a lynch vote at the end of the day. I was not impatient to vote him, it was there the whole time.

[YvonneSeer]

Okay, now I think I understand.

They were under two different circumstances. From what I gathered, Gorgon was a D2 lynch candidate after having 2 townies dead and he was going to be lynched mainly because of the 50/50 chance of him being the SK. As you already know, I didn't agree with this reason and therefore I didn't want to lynch Gorgon and instead preferred a safer way to find out aka "directing you to jail him" because if Gorgon was a townie, we would have been in serious trouble after lynching him.

On the other hand, Oman was a D1 lynch candidate. We had nothing to go on and we definitely needed a lynch to gain information. At that point, Oman was the closest thing to being scum since I found nobody else sticking out with their scumminess.

So, yes, there will be a difference depending on the situation.

[YvonneSeer]

Yvonne, thinking back to Day 2 (the gorgon lynch). Now you said that Oman was an ok lynch because we had nothing to go on. Given all the claims Day 2, why were you hesitant in voting Gorgon, was there a better lynch or one that would have provided more information? Honestly I dont feel like your lack of vote (against Gorgon) should be a mark in your favor, unless your vote against Oman is a mark against you.

There might have been a better lynch if we had more discussion and the scum might have slipped up in their desperation to lynch anyone who wasn't on their side (like Gorgon even though he's the SK). I'm just saying, immediately lynching a player based on probability without any discussion of alternative plays is just too dangerous for me.

[YvonneSeer]

The conversation was basically "Let's lynch Gorgon because he's 50/50 SK" and that was it. I don't recall any discussion about likely scum who were on Oman's wagon. And CKD, I never implied that I was pro-town for not pushing Gorgon's lynch. It was something you asked cicero but added a question to me about my vote on Oman to which I replied and it's now become me explaining the different circumstances which led to my vote on Oman and lack of one on Gorgon.

And like I mentioned earlier, I can foresee problems which will come up tomorrow if we No Lynch. I won't go into detail but if you're town, think about it and you might also see it.

Random dice claiming is good. How do we go about it?

[YvonneSeer]

I'd bet your left arm too.

[YvonneSeer]

Okay, so I thought about it a little bit more and No Lynch is not as bad as I anticipated it would be. I'm now fine with a No Lynch but I would still prefer a DGB lynch by far.

[YvonneSeer]

Fonz, I think you're unnecessarily taking this 'easy lynch' to a whole different level. It's actually really simple to understand. And since you dislike the term 'easy lynch', I won't use it.

1. A majority of the town think I'm one of the scummiest players in this game.
2. I am and have been a potential lynch candidate.
3. I was the one player closest to being lynched today.

Let me just check who thinks I might be scum and would lynch me.

Adele? Yes.
CKD? Yes.
DGB? Yes.
Fonz? Yes.

shafted and CES? I don't know.. Maybe?

Anyway, you only need 5 to lynch and ciceroscum could have easily,

easily

slipped in among the crowd and get me lynched. Would anyone have stopped my wagon? I doubt it. But cicero did not do this. Instead, he stuck his neck out and in doing so, brought attention to his own self. So, questions I ask myself:

1. Would scum defend the townie closest to being lynched instead of just lynching her and possibly getting a win?
2. Would scum risk drawing attention onto himself?

This is why I find cicero pro-town and not likely to be scum. That is all. I don't have to convince you or anyone else, because this is only possible from my point of view and for my own usage when I'm scumhunting.

[YvonneSeer]

First time I managed to figure out the entire scum team and I get killed. Well, I mostly had Adele on gut though.

Special thanks goes out to cicero for having a little faith in me. My reluctance to claim wasn't

that

bad...