Mini #537 Happy Tree Friends Mafia - Game Over

[Rigel]

Vote: Holy

for not voting.

[Rigel]

JDodge, ryan, Phate: I have a quick question for you. Are you scumpartners bussing each other or idiots wasting our time with a petty argument that no one cares about except you? Either way, I plan on ignoring you until you quit acting like 2-year olds, because if you are scum, I'm sure you'll give yourselves away in some other fashion later on. I do feel, however, that I should point out that the only thing Phate has contributed to this game is said stupid argument. JDodge, you haven't been much better; basically all of my posts have been anti-ryan and pointless. At least ryan bothered to pursue a line of thought with the brief roffman questioning, before you three got sidetracked.

Now, back to the actual game.

First of all, I feel obliged to point out that olliep14 has not posted once yet, and there are three players in this game aside from him who have made only one game-relevant post. Perhaps that is something that we should look into, seeing as how it would be really easy for scum to be forgotten when there's a three-way dispute going on.

I'm just going to do a quick mini-analysis of the players I haven't mentioned yet, in the hopes of getting some real discussion going.

mildmanneredhero

I really don't like any of your actions thus far. First, you vote hop from olliep14 to Holy, which isn't all that suspicious, but for your reason, you give that Holy was being defensive, when, really, she wasn't. Giving excuses, maybe, but not defensive. There were some really good reasons that you could have switched your vote (take, for example, the fact that Holy was too tired for a day straight), but you didn't find one of them. On the other hand, you did point out roffman's sketchiness regarding his excuses, which I agree with. So my opinion of you is fairly mixed at this point.

Holy

I'm actually rather glad that I chose to vote for you. You haven't contributed anything to the game, and your few actions haven't done anything but thrown suspicion on yourself. Even your last post doesn't help your cause; you're just siding with the popular opinion regarding roffman to make yourself look town-y. I'd love to see you actually participate in the game--perhaps a few votes might help?

roffman

I don't really know what to think of you either. You've been the most active of the non-combative participants in this game, but mostly because you've been singled out for your errors thus far. You do seem to be playing in a newbish fashion, although whether is newbie town or newbie scum is yet to be decided. Your story of the morphine drip is odd--we can't verify it, but it does explain your actions. However, it might be a coincidence, or an excuse, or a flat out lie. We have no way of knowing. However, your voting history does not seem as much strategic as it does haphazard/newbish, so I'm not super worried about it at the moment. Either your story is true, which explains the oddness, or it's a manifestation of a lack of experience, which you deny.

kuribo

Not really a lot I can say at this point about you. You appear townish, but only because there's really no evidence against you at this point. You've been leading us towards roffman, which is good if he's scum but bad if you are. His playing seems somewhat newbish, so I have some small worries about your alignment. However, without any real evidence against you, you're giving me the most town-aligned read out of everyone.

Any thoughts on this, or posts from the non-posters out there?

[Rigel]

I'm going to launch into a prediction here:

One of the three folk involved in the flamewar is scum.

Metagaming a mistake ryan made in the past doesn't help us catch scum here, so the reasoning for the first part of the debate is unhelpful to us.

JDodge and Phate, it seems like you guys have been baiting him from the start. JDodge, you started with a crack about his posting the role PM previously--- in a completely unrelated game. Phate, you jumped down ryan's throat after you hadn't been involved. Once Phate and ryan were throwing crap all over each other, that's when you jumped back in, JDodge.

JDodge, you told FairyThatIsPunk to "contribute or die," but I think you need to follow your own advice.

Trying to bait a player into being modkilled or replaced is NOT helpful to us.

QFT

there's no way we can know your intent.

Just a question: isn't the intent always to win, either as pro-town, pro-scum, or pro-self win like SK and jester? or are their other roles that try to win in other methods?

Yes, the intent is generally to win, roffman; I think what kuribo means by his statement is that we don't know if you're telling us your morphine drip story so that we know the truth or so that you can mislead us or give yourself a free pass. We know you want to win, but your intent with that point would determine what side you are on.

[Rigel]

Okay, regardless of alignment, Fairy needs to start putting forth some info quickly, or she's going to end up with a vote from me. If she can't put forth any constructive thoughts, then it doesn't matter whether she's town-aligned or mafia-aligned. If she's the latter, lynching her is obviously a good choice. If she's the former, then she's the best lynch anyways, because she can't contribute. So, Fairy, if you can give any sort of helpful information, do so now. Otherwise, I'm not sure that you'll make it past Day 1.

[Rigel]

Okay, regardless of alignment, Fairy needs to start putting forth some info quickly, or she's going to end up with a vote from me.

I always find it scummy when people threaten to throw a single vote on someone. Are you looking for the town's approval in case she turns out to be town later?

No, I'm simply saying that if she doesn't put forth information, or if she's incapable of putting forth information, then I personally am going to vote for her. Having someone who can't contribute to the game isn't any good once Day 2 or Day 3 hits, especially if they're secretly scum. I'm not looking for town approval, I'm simply saying what actions I plan on taking regarding Fairy's post restriction.

And what is the status of the non-posters? Have they been prodded, and if so, are they going to be replaced, or are they posting soon?

[Rigel]

For starters what exactly her post restriction is if any and why she has been acting like she can't play the game because of it.

That doesn't need to be public info.

The scum are SensFan, competentpsycho and roffman. That is all.

I'm with roffman and Phate on this one. Yes, those three people could be scum. But blunt accusations don't mean anything to the remainder of us if you can't support them with reasons. I'm not going to take any assertions from anyone at face value without any reasons to back up those assertions. If Phate doesn't "get your reasons", then you need to make him and the rest of us "get those reasons" so that we actually listen to you rather than simply ignoring you when you might be right.

So, what are your reasons for picking those three definitively as scum?

[Rigel]

Shut up, Rigel.

Phate, do you have a post restriction that makes you act like an ass all game? Just thought I'd check before I went back to actually playing the game instead of having a petty, useless argument.

[Rigel]

Unvote: Holy

At this point, I'm divided on the current FTIP issue. While her post restriction does seem to imply she is pro-town, the fact that JDodge is going after the three people who happened to vote for her does the opposite. It is plausible that the two of them could be scumpartners, but I just don't understand why JDodge would be so blatently obvious that he's against the three people voting for her.

So, in the interest of the town, I'm going to

Vote: FairyThatIsPunk

. You can't accuse four of us of being scum, JDodge, so, if you have any alternative reasons for thinking FTIP-voters are scum, it's time to hear them.

[Rigel]

Okay, I know that I helped support this "what is up with FTIP" thing, but at this point, it's sort of gotten ridiculous. Obviously, she either can't express herself usefully, or she's scum. If there is a cop in this setup, I would hope they would find out overnight, so at least one person in this game (who isn't scum) will know.

I'm going to try to skim over the thread, or at least the FTIP debate, and see if I can find anything scummy to pick out. Until then, I think that we should stop worrying about FTIP, because she's probably not going to be lynched today anyways unless one or two of her supporters switch sides or JDodge gives up his whole "I obviously know who's scum" theory.

[Rigel]

I'm sorry about my unexpected absence from the game in the last few days. I've had some unexpected RL issues to deal with and my internet randomly decided to die over the weekend, so I've been unable to access the site. I'm going to try to get active again as soon as possible, but this week is finals for me, so I'm not promising that I'll be very active until those are over.

[Rigel]

Okay, I've read over the latter half of this thread, and I'm going to start off with this:

Unvote: FTIP

. I'm not sold on your towniness, but I'm not sold on your scumminess either. However, you're probably not going to get lynched today, so I don't see the point in leaving my vote on you any longer. So, for now, here's what I've picked up from the thread that I'd like to point out thus far.

This is basically what I am scared of. I guess there would be an easy way to ask her. Fairy, if this is the best you can do due to your post restriction: give a thumbs up,
and if you could somehow get away with being more helpful, just haven't found a reason to yet: give a thumbs down.

After that same thing for if you can vote or not.

This second part never got addressed, and it needs to be. FTIP, if you can vote, thumbs up. If you cannot, thumbs down. That's all I'm asking at this point.

JDodge isn't answering any questions asked of him or giving reasons for his suspicions. Definite scummy behavior. I know you are all going to say he always plays like this so he blends in when he is scum... what if he is scum... you are going to let him get away with it? Playing like this as town to save your ass in games where you are scum is anti-town. He has his own agenda that is hurting, not helping the town.

vote: JDodge

"What if he is scum"?

ZOMG WHAT IF YOU'RE SCUM

GASP WE SHOULD LYNCH YOU

WHAT IF EVERYONE'S SCUM?

THUS EVERYONE MUST BE SCUM

BECAUSE

WHAT IF THEY ARE

Is no one aware that posts like this are exactly what competentpsycho is talking about? Seriously, if you are being accused of being scum because of your playstyle, shouldn't you at least step out of your playstyle to combat such an accusation, rather than just go blithely on with your belligerent and anti-town attitude?

And as for this...

Psycho, from what I've gleaned of JDodge, he always plays like this, town or scum, and is statistically more likely to be town than scum in any given game. I will support his lynch the moment I believe he is scum, and not before.

That said, you're used to finding scum by looking at reasoning. Since JDodge gives suspicions without reasoning, the suspicions themselves are a better way to determine whether he's town or scum.

This is such a ridiculous response that it's almost not worth putting on the forum a second time. Yes, JDodge is more likely to be town than scum. You too, Phate, are more likely to be town than scum. Everyone is more likely to be town than scum. I'd take a page out of JDodge's book and scream about it in CapsLock, but I doubt it would do any good. Your logic for why we should trust JDodge is absolutely atrocious, as is your comment on how JDodge's suspicions are how we should determine whether he's town or scum. First of all, who benefits more from not giving reasons for actions: the town or the mafia? (Rhetorical question, in case no one noticed) Secondly, how is that a better way of determining his alignment. It sounds like a worse idea to me, since all we get are his actions, rather than his reasonings. We shouldn't hold JDodge to a lower standard just because he has a playstyle that differs from the remainder of ours. It might be more in our benefit to hold him to a higher standard, since his playstyle is so anti-town to begin with.

Hey all, i'm back. Just catching up on what is happening and it seems like we have regressed back to the FTIP thing. Beyond that, it looks like we are discussing the fact that Jdodge is making super cop claims (ie. i know all the scum).

I don't get that impression at all.

That was the impression i got from the fact people were saying he always plays like this. I assumed they were talking about saying he knew who was scum. Could you please explain what impression you have of what is occuring?

Maybe I misread you. Looked like you had said you thought he had special knowledge.

No worries. I think it comes because of no voice tone. I was saying that people were discussing the fact that Jdodge said he had special knowledge.

Okay, I have no idea where this came from. First off, JDodge did not say that he had special knowledge. In fact, JDodge could not have special knowledge, unless it came in his role description, because we have not had a night yet. Even if JDodge is the cop (in which case he's obviously the bad cop half of the equation), he couldn't know anyone's alignment because he hasn't had a chance to utilize his role. This sequence of posts seems deliberately intended to be confusing, and it's definitely one of the scummiest things to occur all game, especially since it sends the discussion whirling into a "Does JDodge have special knowledge" discussion.

My only question is this: why has no one, especially JDodge, noted this fact? One would think that someone would have noticed by now that we never had a Night 0 where JDodge could have procured such "secret knowledge". It doesn't cast JDodge into a very favorable light.

Ok, I have reread the thread and my top suspect is roffman. In addition to this the above post makes me think he and pacone are probably connected. Pacone says he has no suspects despite all the things that have happened so far. He may just not want to vote for his partner. Either way roffman seems scummier to me, mostly from being overly defensive from little things and not really presenting an opinion of his own, but rather just agreeing with people/restating ideas that have already

"despite all the things that have happened so far"? lol and what has happened so far? We are still day 1 *sigh*

I loved it when a whole day/night shift happened in a week

In case you haven't noticed, Pacone, just because it's Day 1 doesn't mean nothing has happened. What you're saying in this post is that you don't believe anyone is scummy because "nothing" has happened. In actuality, in the course of this day, we have had these events occur: Random Voting, Roffman's Morphine Drip Incident, The Crazy Ryan-Phate-JDodge Waste-of-Our-Time Argument, Recovery from Ryan's Replacement, The FTIP Debate, Competentpsycho's Potential Craplogic Debate, JDodge Obviously Knows Who is Mafia, Roffman Confuses Everyone Time, and OMG We Have a Deadline Alert. That's Day 1. It might not have been the most useful day, and we might not have learned a lot, but the least you can have are suspicions. If you don't have suspects by now, you're not participating to the degree you need to, or you're scum.

As such, after reading through the thread, I would suspect the scummiest person thus far is roffman. Almost none of his actions appear pro-town, and even those that do are still sketchy. As for the remainder of the scum, I have no idea. No one really sticks out as pro-town in this game at all, so I don't really see the point in trying to rank you by scumminess as of yet. For now,

Vote: roffman

.

[Rigel]

I'm not really sure why you see the actions you mentioned as scummy, ZONEACE. The switch to roffman might be perceived that way, but the only reason I voted for him at that time was because he was the only person I saw as having scummy tendencies without any pro-town tendencies to make me hesitant to vote for them. Obviously, I was wrong in that belief, but now we have the results of Night 1 to work with, so we have a better shot of discovering who the scum is now than we did yesterday. I'd like to hear your rationale for why my 4th vote on FTIP is scummy though. I intended the vote to prove a point that it didn't prove: that everyone that JDodge was accusing of being scum was voting for FTIP. I simply wanted to see if he would transfer suspicion onto me as well. Since he didn't, I left it at that.

As for Holy's interrogation methods, I don't understand the point. Obviously, Holy, he is not going to say he is scum. There was honestly nothing suspicious about your initial post--it appears to be simply a taunting question directed at someone you see as being scummy. But then you dragged the question out, pushing the envelope. Which makes me wonder why you would do so.

Zone, why does Phate need pressure? I feel he's been in the discussion a good amount, definitely more than some others.

I didn't mean pressure in the sense of needing ot post more, i meant in that i find him suspicious.

Immediately before this, ZONEACE was discussing his reasoning for putting pressure on Phate, and a few posts above, he had posted a list of those he found suspicious, a list which included Sensfan, Phate, and Pacone, and myself. However, Holy does not post her question after Sensfan speaks up, nor does she after my actions are called into question. She only posts after Phate is brought up. I'm not trying to utilize this as hard-core evidence of a link of any kind between Holy and Phate, because I haven't had time to look into a possible connection as of yet; I just happened to notice it and felt I should point it out.

As for Panzerjager's death, I think that JDodge has the right idea here. If I was in Panzer's position, "hiding" with a suspected member of the Mafia would be a good strategy, especially after leaving a breadcrumb like the one JDodge pointed out. If Sensfan had been town, Panzer wouldn't have died overnight, and he could have steered conversation away from his lynch. But, if Sensfan was mafia, as he very well may be, Panzer would die overnight, leaving his breadcrumbs and role behind for us to study.

I find it incredibly likely that Sensfan is a member of the Mafia, and thus:

Vote: Sensfan

.

[Rigel]

I'm not sure that I like the way that the discussion has turned on Phate all of a sudden. Yes, Phate's defense of Sensfan was scummy on Day 2, but the truth is that if Phate is scum, he wouldn't have known that Sensfan was mafia-aligned. Therefore, saying that his defense of Sensfan makes him scummy makes no sense.

How, this by no means clears Phate. He still could be scum, and I plan on looking of evidence to support that in Day 1. But jumping on him for his actions on Day 2 and 3 doesn't help when those actions, looked at objectively, wouldn't help the mafia, and therefore would be horrible plays if Phate was scum.

And why has no one brought up the fact that FTIP was a shrink? This gives us a guaranteed serial killer, unless Fairy cured them on Night 1. And someone killed her during the day--that's something we should be looking at as well. I just don't see where this Phate thing is going, and unless some non-Sensfan-supporting evidence can be found, I think we should shelve the matter until we can determine exactly what occurred overnight.

Barring that, I'm willing to go for a Pacone-lynch, because he's useless, not present 98% of the time, and is acting anti-town with his lack of providing info. So either we should look at what happened last night, or lynch Pacone.

[Rigel]

Paraphrasing (not even really in the red part - more plagiarizing) what I said before doesn't mean you are contributing. The Fairy thing is a good call, I thought I mentioned that before but I guess not. I get a bad feeling about you, though.

Just because you and I have the same opinion doesn't make my restatement of it scummy. If I didn't point out where I stood on the Phate issue, I would have gotten called on it by Zoneace or JDodge, so I just phrased the issue how I saw it. I didn't really even look much at your posts while I was posting, so the similarity between our phrasings would be by osmosis. Believe me, if I wanted to pretend that I had the same opinion as you so that I wouldn't have to contribute, I would have made sure that I didn't phrase my post in such a similar way, because, as we have seen, phrasing my opinions in a way similar to the way you did draws attention.

But saying that I'm not contributing just because I phrased my opinions similarly to yours is a bad stand to take. For one thing, I take my similar opinion further, pointing out that we need to look at Phate's Day 1 play before we outright condemn him for what appears to be a foolish set of actions. For another, this opinion we share is not the whole of my post because I have more to say than what you said. I have the FTIP situation to bring up, something you allegedly noticed but didn't bother to mention, and I'm bringing a possible pacone-lynch back onto the table of discussion, because he's been largely ignored since the start of the day.

So what you're saying is that even though I have two other points that I make in my post, I haven't contributed anything because I make another point that sounds like yours and because one of those other two is one that you wanted to make but forgot for some reason. Right?

[Rigel]

Vote: pacone

You're not contributing to the game, you're not active (which is not necessarily a requirement to contribute, I might add), and you've given no quality reason for voting Phate. Just because the majority of us are voting for him doesn't mean that you should follow suit. Give up a decent reason and I might take off my vote, but it'll have to be a pretty good reason.

[Rigel]

Seriously? Right when I was getting ready to post a big, important post?

Bah!