Open 53: Near-Vanilla - Game over!

[klebian]

vote: tyhess

[klebian]

the lack of posting here already makes me sad

[klebian]

Bringing on a grudge from another game are we?

This is completely uncalled for.

unvote, vote: phate

[klebian]

xD.

Not even close.

Hopefully this means you realized I was being as facetious as you were.

[klebian]

maybe

[klebian]

hmm it took me a few seconds to decipher DS's signature

also yep, crub

[klebian]

yes, lern to speel

[klebian]

you're the first

[klebian]

I'm here. Not sure what to say about disciple slayer's last post. Also, I wish people were posting here more regularly (including myself I guess)

[klebian]

nevertheless, he claimed doctor...

[klebian]

I recomend you don't kill me.

and Holey cow Vote jumping.

IGMEOY: Disciple Slayer

I know my vote currently stands on you, but I am keeping an eye on you, just to make that clear.


Stop being such a smart mouth and focus on the game shall we?

If anything, we should have bad feelings about you.

:badposting:

[klebian]

I agree with a deadscilent vote.

unvote, vote deadscilent

[klebian]

[klebian]

that's a stupid strike

[klebian]

Disciple Slayer, do you actually think this is a good way to play?

First you fake claim, than you claim again, which is clearly fake.

FoS: Disciple Slayer

This is a pretty dumb post. Kinda feeding the flame or whatever the phrase is.

Still typing whole sentences in caps is really irritating. stop pls

[klebian]

I agree.

[klebian]

Good thing he's here....

[klebian]

urban dictionary tells me it means don't feed the trolls

[klebian]

we're not really discussing who the doc is

[klebian]

DoS' behaviour does not warrant a policy lynch. If I decide he's scum, my mind will change.

but... that wouldn't be a policy lynch

also i don't support policy lynching

[klebian]

deadscilent, seriously, have you even looked at the roles?
Even if DS is the doc, and targetted by scum, he won't necessarily die

so you're saying that if a power role claims day 1, he must be either scum or suicidal?

[klebian]

I think he's trying to back up that statement with his second, which actually doesn't logically follow because it's pretty much WIFOM...

[klebian]

I mostly agree with shanba's post. I have some discrepancies with the discussion on definitiveness but I agree that it's mostly playstyle and so it doesn't matter that much. I actually don't like ross's defense of TSN, especially his statement that TSN's post was decidedly innocent. I also do not like how he implies that Disciple is scum but decides to vote shanba for being definite and seeming like scum trying to vote innocent....

Vote: rosswilliam

Phate, i'm not so sure that voting without reason is worse than voting for a weak reason. That's pretty much all I can really say now that I think about it. I agree with ross that you couldn't have expected no one to ask you why you voted... I guess all I can say is if you don't think your reason is strong it's probably not enough for a vote...

[klebian]

If you meant it that way then I would agree with you, however I really don't like the way you actually did state it in that post, so the vote stays.

[klebian]

I thought that I was already replaced in this game.....Hjallitti you can replace me...I think it'd be best for this game...

You think it'd be best for the game if you were replaced? You mean best for this game to be abandoned or something? You're active on the site, and there's not much to read in this game, it shouldn't be too hard to get posting again.

[klebian]

Any sort of bandwagon which sparks some conversation is welcome at this point.

What do you think of the rw miniwagon

I still support it for the record.

Ross, I don't agree that your lurking would make the wagon go away. In fact, if you were to lurk, and ignore a wagon on you, this would probably make it grow.

[klebian]

well i was hoping it might 'spark some conversation'

[klebian]

Sorry I've been kind of lurky. I haven't had much to goo on, except for maybe killa seven not replying to whoever's "Are you scum?" question.

This is a pretty weird post. It seemed to me that jdodge was just asking this question, almost as an introduction for killa. And this is all you have to go on? I find this a bit suspicious/strange.

This game is seriously painful.

I'm not a big fan of the RW bandwagon so I'm jumping on klebian.

vote klebian

There's scum on that there wagon.

I note your shift from apathy to antipathy toward the RW wagon. I will agree that it's obviously not the strongest reasons for a wagon, but I do think it seems a bit late to be jumping on a wagoner, especially seemingly randomly.

Concerning korlash's first post. I thought it was a decent read. I agree with his reasoning against DS for the most part, and his argument against post 119 is valid.

His post 221, I liked less.

As for your fence sitting i don't think that makes you scum at all. Unless you and DS are scum partners that is. Then yeah, its a valid point. But I don't see that... (yet) In fact I think not being on the fence here is scummy. I mean on one hand you have a player acting blatantly anti-town. Every town should at least want him out of the game. At the same time we all have to consider him just a "Village idiot" and thus the fence sitting.

This makes little sense to me. Their seems to be egregious contradictions, and his statement 'not being on the fence is scummy' just doesn't sit well- just because there are reasons against him and reasons for him doesn't mean that we shouldn't form an opinion regarding him...
The other parts of this post are pretty much him joking.

Secondly WTF is DS even a topic of discussion right now? He's about to be replaced. I think we can safely put DS's play down to his VI meta and hope he get's replaced by someone who isn't a VI.

I don't like this. First off, there was a DS discussion because korlash was recapping his opinions on the game. Also, I don't agree that you can excuse scumminess for meta and go on with it. And even more, this post seems like counter productive to discussion. It should never be the wrong time to discuss someone's behavior, and just because he is about to be replaced doesn't mean we can't do analysis on him.

I can never read Korlash. He always strikes me as either scum or stupid town.

Also, he's pushing a VI lynch, citing one game (well, not really citing, just vaguely mentioning some other game) where VI claimed, retracted, and was scum.

I agree with the fact that his vague reference doesn't give him real basis for his vote. But I do not think that there is anything wrong with pushing for a VI lynch, if one does think he is scummy...

/me sighs.

kleb: which player do you suspect most at the moment? What do you make of Korlashes posts?

There is no one who at this point truly sticks out as most suspicious. I am still ok with the Ross wagon though I don't see it developing into a lynch too soon and I don't think that at this point it even should be a lynch without some more discussion. I am happier that the game has gotten a little more fast-paced and I will be contributing as well.

Neko, you earlier noted that you had a comment for RW but you don't seem to have made it. (Or was it just regarding his reaction to jdodge's vote?)

From what I can see so far, TSN and Korlash are towards the top of my scum list for reasons already stated. RW seems like newbie town atm, but he could also be newbie scum. Thus, the 4 on the RW wagon make me a bit nervous. I would agree with Crub that there is probably scum on that wagon somewhere, and seeing how none of them gave much, if any, reasoning, it would pretty much give the scum a free pass (hey, all four of us can't be scum, right? so if they didn't give any reasoning, why should I?). On the other hand, because it's so likely at least one of the four is scum, that makes the townie(s)(though I highly doubt all three scum would be dumb enough to join the same wagon like that) on that wagon an easy target, so Crub could very well have randomly picked someone, or, if he's scum, he could have "randomly" picked a townie. For now, though, Crub seems more town.

This is quite wishy-washy and I don't like it at all. First, you haven't said

much

about tsn and korlash so far. Also, I'm not sure why the RW wagoners make you nervous when you say he could be newbie scum as well as town. And the rest of your post sounds a lot like random gibberish, with unclear reasoning towards your conclusion that crub seems more town.

Man, this day's gone on too long.

I'm getting desperate to get someone lynched.

The post that really sets me off wrong about rw is:

to all the people who are voting for me, i think it says something to my innocence that I'm still here posting and defending myself when it would be so gosh-darn easy for to slip into lurking and let the whole thing blow other.

Bolded makes me somewhat suspicious of TSN. Although TSN quoted a very suspicious post by RW too.

Not very big leads, but suspicions all the same.

At first I was going to agree with you, but rereading killa's post, it does seem like skitzer is joking... it seems as if he had intended the "I'm" to be italicized, to indicate that even he is 'getting desperate', as killa said about korlash.

It was

not entirely serious

. It doesn't really matter anyway, we have a deadline, so whether we want to get this day over or not, we don't have a choice.
I swear, I should stop being anything less than dead serious in mafia games.

Sometimes this is a better idea =P... or if you're gonna not be serious, make it clear. Sarcasm doesn't pass well over teh internetz.

Your going to have to try very hard in order to convice me that I'm desperate to lynch someone that has one vote... I mean if I was desperate I would totally go after someone with at least 3 votes... Unless your going to say I have a personal vendetta against DS. Which... is not only insane but useless. I mean a vendetta against an idiot? O.o waste of my time if you ask me.

Though a lot of this post seems like a mess of speaking, I agree with the first statement. Killa's point against korlash that he is getting desperate does seem like a pretty crappy point, as korlash was just saying he wanted to put some pressure.

Melody: I agree with skitzer. Number of votes should not at this point affect your choice on votes, unless we are within a day or 2 of deadline, which we are not. Also it seems like you are picking 2 of the 'crowd favorites' to get scummy vibes from. Any opinion on other players other than those two?

[klebian]

It is good to see a fresh analysis of past behavior, even if only to get some discussion going again...

[klebian]

I would just credit that to a newbie-move: it is not entirely clear to newbies that a death of a townie provides more information than a nolynch (avoiding a townie lynch).

It is not selfish, RW, and it is probably a fairly common notion. But I'd prefer that you try some scumhunting on the evidence we do have before I unvote you.

Crub: I didn't respond to that post after mine, because I felt that there was no good to argue that point.

[klebian]

Korlash: you realize that town doesn't play to survive but it plays to win? Shanba messed up his wording a bit but basically a lynch is better than no lynch because we get info ==> helps us win.

Mod didn't 'let' us no lynch but he explained how to no lynch.

[klebian]

I was referring to my use of the word oppurtunistic. It is an unfair word when used unproperly, but I think it describes killa seven right now perfectly.

how am i opportunistic, i stated i didnt plan on voting you (atleast not yet), i pointed that out to get a reactin out of you to see how u would respond to get a better read on you, this game is really slow and there isnt much going on you had 4 votes on you and you had have to most attention on you i need to see how u would respond to critisism.

You are being called opportunistic for your post in 289, not later, where you ask rw why you shouldn't vote him, because he immediately 'jumped on' no lynch when the mod 'let him'. You stated that you didn't plan on voting rw in a later post. The rest of your explanation is pretty mediocre- you needed to see how he would respond to criticism? What/why? What does that mean?

[klebian]

Apologies. I have neglected this game. Long weekend so I will be posting tomorrow or Monday, and I will definitely have a vote placed when deadline hits.

[klebian]

Hmm I'm looking at the case on melody man and I realize that he's made about 3 posts. The first was a vote on rw because out of rw and tsn, rw had more votes.
The second post is to explain his suspicions of rw: mainly rw's panickiness and his 'all of a sudden' change to calmness/coolness. He backtracks now and says that another reason he voted rw over tsn was because his only suspicion against tsn was 'feelings'.
The third post states that he realizes the votes on rw were just a wagon, so he unvotes (not revoting tsn)

Now looking at jd's posts: Nothing at all. A lot of nonsense, a lot of votehopping, and his 'suspicion' of rw seems to just have been based on a vote he had made, which also had no backing.

I don't really care about meta that much here. If he's not only gonna lurk but not even post anything when he's posting, I don't like it. Unfortunately mm's lurking doesn't help.

Basically, I could go with either lynch. I slightly prefer a jd lynch so I'm going to

vote: jdodge

. I am hoping that mm will return from business and start posting, because he hasn't made substantial posts in any topic, while jd has.

[klebian]

Why aren't we lynching klebian?

obv scum.

can't tell if this is sarcasm or seriousness
care to elaborate?

(If the unvote is needed,

unvote, vote: jdodge

[klebian]

how did you know, killa? How could you have been 100% sure?

and nice cop-out FoS. people who FoS whole bandwagon's are just trying to distance themselves from a mislynch, without actually sharing any of there opinions.

It's easy to say what would should have done. Everyone can play smart in hindsight.

This post is pretty wrong.
First, obviously he couldn't be 100% sure someone's not scum, but that doesn't mean that someone can't have strong convictions to the point that they believe something. Otherwise you can argue in another game that a claimed cop who has outed 3 scum isn't 100% town because there's no way to 'be sure'...

Second, Killa seven was not on the mmwagon. He was committed to vote on someone else. And he even VOTED someone who was on mm's wagon, the person he was voting yesterday, so it's not just a cop-out fos...

[klebian]

korlash
bah, in retrospect, rereading his 'knew' post, I can see where you're going
I def don't like rw's post but k7's was not much better

[klebian]

...including you, in case you forgot...

And? Whats your point here? Kelb tried to use the excuse that Killa wasn't on the MM bandwagon as an excuse for him being town but with the amount of people on JD scum could just have easily been on his with the added knowledge that if MM is lynched they were "off a town lynch."

I believe you missed what I was saying. I was saying that k7 was not just distancing from a mislynch/cop-out Fosing and 'playing smart in hindsight' because he wasn't on the wagon

and

he also voted someone.

[quote="Korlash"

So, I don't think it's entirely accurate for you to say that you knew he was scum.

I'm sorry where did he say that?[/quote]
Neko mixed up a word but it should be pretty clear what he meant. He meant it wasn't accurate to say he knew MM, as opposed to jd, was town.

[klebian]

Ah. k7 said he knew mm was town. He also seems convinced that jdodge is scum. I mixed them up a bit and thought k7 said he knew jdodge was scum. Nevertheless, my point is really the same. k7 is basically saying 'i knew mm was town and jdodge was scum,' and I was simply pointing out that mm was one of his suspects not too long before his jdodge vote, and that his jdodge vote wasn't that strong to begin with.

Hmm well I thought you had just mixed up a word but it seems you actually believe that k7's claim that he 'knew' mm was town was equivalent to him knowing jd was/is scum. Although you are right in that he considered mm for quite a while, this doesn't mean you can take his statement and assume the contrapositive was true.

[klebian]

jdodge i was thinking about that question and I think I would agree
not being pro-town is not directly anti-town
however, you are detracting from discussion because it is too often focusing on you (the person who is not being protown) when you are just messing around, so it indirectly hurts the town and so I would call it antitown

[klebian]

... is that all you're going to say?
I'm gonna

vote: crub

as well, because you're pointlessly wasting our time and there is a fixed deadline which is obviously getting closer and closer
but discussion is not really picking up

[klebian]

... is that all you're going to say?
I'm gonna

vote: crub

as well, because you're pointlessly wasting our time and there is a fixed deadline which is obviously getting closer and closer
but discussion is not really picking up

Yeah it is all I'm going to say. What Korlash said was laughable, which is why I laughed. You OMGUS'ing me like that isn't really doing anything to make me feel any better about your alignment.

Maybe what korlash said was laughable but he's not the only person asking you to give some reasoning

also i don't frankly care whether my OMGUS makes you not feel better about my alignment because I have some actual basis behind the vote

[klebian]

Hi. Will be giving some thoughts later today and I hope to stay a little more involved in this game

[klebian]

i guess we're kinda waiting on jdodge to answer those questions when he 'has more time'?
i still think crub's 'explanations' are pretty weak- he picked me semi-randomly and has not liked reactions.... also his saying i over-reacted to one vote is pretty baseless until he points out where I did this... I wouldn't agree that I over-reacted, and that still wouldn't show proof of his claim yesterday that I was obv scum since this occurred after he made the claim

[klebian]

Crub: you have made an explicit case against me and i appreciate this
I will make a similarly detailed response tomorrow if possible

[klebian]

I note your shift from apathy to antipathy toward the RW wagon. I will agree that it's obviously not the strongest reasons for a wagon, but I do think it seems a bit late to be jumping on a wagoner, especially seemingly randomly.

First post after lurky period, in regard to my voting him. Fair enough.

So I note that the post after this you remark "Well that post didn't do anything to ease my mind about your alignment kleb. " As you had said, you had picked me randomly off the RW wagon, and to gauge reactions. Does this mean that at that time you still viewed me as someone neutral but possibly scum because I was on a wagon that you didn't like (An aside, this wagon at first had just been one that you had no real opinion on)? Did my post affirm this view of me in your opinion?

Secondly WTF is DS even a topic of discussion right now? He's about to be replaced. I think we can safely put DS's play down to his VI meta and hope he get's replaced by someone who isn't a VI.

I don't like this. First off, there was a DS discussion because korlash was recapping his opinions on the game. Also, I don't agree that you can excuse scumminess for meta and go on with it. And even more, this post seems like counter productive to discussion. It should never be the wrong time to discuss someone's behavior, and just because he is about to be replaced doesn't mean we can't do analysis on him.

But then followed by a healthy dose of OMGUS.

It is good to see a fresh analysis of past behavior, even if only to get some discussion going again...

Except that it wasn't fresh and there was no one around to respond to it in any case.

This got ignored. Why?

Crub: I didn't respond to that post after mine, because I felt that there was no good to argue that point.

There would have been no positive discussion about that. You had argued that there was no good discussing a 5 page old point, my implication was that there was definitely no good discussing whether discussing a 5 page old point was worthwhile. Obviously we had different viewpoints on how this would move the thread on, and I didn't like it but I didn't think that an argument between us there would resolve my or your opinions.

Then he continues to lurk through the rest of the day. Comes back at the 11th hour to put a vote on. ie. He did absolutely the minimum he had to.

Admittedly I have lurked. I would argue that jdodge and melodyman were both as lurky during that period. But this isn't quite good reasoning on my part; however, this game has been too much of a lurkfest, and I felt that I should at least vote and provide my reasons, which I did- something I would argue is better than not having stated an opinion at all (and I feel that you would agree, in that you would find me significantly scummier if I had taken no position on jdodge vs mm yesterday).

Day 2. He completely ignores my vote up until :

... is that all you're going to say?
I'm gonna

vote: crub

as well, because you're pointlessly wasting our time and there is a fixed deadline which is obviously getting closer and closer but discussion is not really picking up

Yeah I'm obv scum for committing to how I feel about someone's alignment.

Crub honestly I ignored your vote because there was not much I could say to it. I tried asking you about it near the end of day 1 and your response seemed to me as if you were at least some what joking. Additionally, your vote at the beginning of the day seemed as random as your accusation seemed to me ('just putting it out there') so I chose to ignore it until you gave solid reasons that I could actually respond to.
As you may note, a number of players, including Justin and TSN, asked you to clarify on your vote. Ross expressed some suspicion of my posts in the beginning of the day but you ignored these so they seemed to be different from what you were thinking, so in effect, he also didn't see where you were coming from.
Regarding the "Yeah I'm obv scum for committing to how I feel about someone's alignment." This was clearly not my argument. What was happening around that time was you asking for people what they thought of me, generally people saying they didn't see the scumminess and asking you to clarify, and you didn't. Korlash voted you for ignoring people and you lulzed. My vote on you was obviously an attempt to get some actual information that I could sufficiently respond to (which I did get a few pages later).

also i don't frankly care whether my OMGUS makes you not feel better about my alignment because I have some actual basis behind the vote

And yet he doesn't explain. Hypocritical much? Oh and now back into lurk mode Yay for klebian.

I had given my reason, I guess you didn't find it enough. As has been expressed by others, I OMGUSed you because I felt that you were just wasting time calling me scummy and saying next to nothing else. This was my actual basis, that you were not being vocal about what you should have been and the hope that a second vote would pressure you to do so. This is compared to your basis, which was my being "obv scum".

In 515, you posted, in response to that last quote of mine

Over-reaction to one vote for (seemingly) baseless or bogus reasons, I find to be a scum tell. <3

As I said later, I'm not exactly sure what you were referring to. Which vote did I overreact to? If it was a vote on me, obviously you can't quite use this as reasoning as the overreaction would have occurred... after you made the vote on me.

Regarding

If you disagree, fair enough, if you think that makes me scum, please explain.

I never claimed this makes you scum. Unlike what you had been doing, I had not been accusing anyone of being scum and not explained. However, I had voted you on the thinking that a vote would get information. I know you're aware that a vote doesn't necessarily imply that i think you are scum.

[klebian]

Crub,

Well I wasn’t making a case on you being scum, at least not as yet. But I am a bit curious now why you would think my questions to Skitzer, trying to discern the reasoning behind his statement defending you implied that I believe you to be scum.

I feel that this is an important point. I am reasoning similarly seeing his questions to me asking why his behavior implied that he is scum when I had made no implication that I believed he was. I think this is more interesting to note than scummy that Crub seems to have this paranoia in these 2 separate but similar situations of being accused of scum where there is no accusation or even an implication.

[klebian]

As I've said, me voting you doesn't mean I think you're scum.

[klebian]

Whatever.

Not sure what you mean here. If you see here, some people consider acting against the interest of town a viable reason to

lynch

, and a plurality of people believe this is part of the reason to lynch. On the other hand, I am merely voting you on the belief that you were acting against the interest of the town (being too vague about your suspicions on me) and in the hope that this vote would stop you from doing so.

[klebian]

Oh and kleb, if you don't think I'm scum and only wanted more information why are you still voting me?

This is true. I have spent the last few posts responding to you/discussing. I think the vote served its purpose.

unvote

[klebian]

Justin
At the first, I was trying to show that it was entirely viable for me to vote someone NOT JUST because I thought he was scum, as a lot of crub's 'defense' for himself against my vote was essentially 'this means you think i'm scummy but what i've done isn't necessarily scummy'.

At the second, When I placed my vote on Crub, it seemed a lot like he was just dilly dallying and when people addressed him he pretty much shrugged them off (his lulz post to korlash). My vote was an attempt to force him to be more explicit (I had said "... is that all you're going to say?
I'm gonna vote: crub as well, because you're pointlessly wasting our time and there is a fixed deadline which is obviously getting closer and closer ")
Finally in 554, crub posted some reasons. He accused me of OMGUS and of being hypocritical, made that statement about how my vote implied my belief he was scum, and as a whole elaborated much more than he had. With this I was able to actually respond to him (579) rather than him thinking I was ignoring his vote on me. This was what I had wanted, something I could respond to, so I felt my vote had done what I had wanted of it, and so I unvoted.

[klebian]

That's a good point. My lurking has had pretty negative consequences on my play, but I have resolved to stop and since I seem to be mostly done with defending myself, I'm going to be analyzing what I think of the last few pages soon (probably Friday or Saturday)

[klebian]

kinda waiting for k7

[klebian]

apologies, i have had a busy week
i will return to posting tonight

[klebian]

I'm not seeing much of a case on crub or TSN, their argument looks like 2 townies, 1 much less interested in the argument than the other. I could see this at distancing but this doesn't look that much to me like that at the moment.
On the other hand, I support a k7 wagon. His reasons for voting have seen entirely contrived. Especially amusing is how he unvotes jdodge, who he has been voting for since the beginning of the day, and puts his vote instead on TSN, while JD, based on k7's reasoning in 640, is equally or more guilty for the actions that he has cited in that post. I also don't like his use of 'near the deadline' to describe when tsn and jd started voting crub, when it was a week ago that it happened.
Additionally, he doesn't seem to realize that yesterday, he participated in the same type of deadline lynch. 5 days before deadline hit, he placed the third vote on jdodge, for successive reasons of "fuck it", "he hasn't posted anything in ages, mm made mistakes but he should get another chance", and then confirming his vote when jdodge pretty much ignores his wagon (this one I am ok with). The problem here is that he makes these posts right after saying he is deciding between tsn and mm. He later goes back, in the second post of reasoning I mentioned, and explains why he sees jdodge as scummier than the other two, but I feel that k7 is just following the wagons in this game.

vote: k7

I'd rather see this lynch than a crub or TSN lynch.

[klebian]

forgot to address that. I was waiting for you in the same manner as neko: you had said that you would look through and see if there was anyone scummier. Later, when asked by neko and I, you said that you would wait until someone scummier jumped out.
I didn't like this change in position either
mainly what I was waiting for was you to clarify whether your stance had changed or not.

[klebian]

By stating this, you more or less set klebian up

not

to vote for you, so if you were hoping that he would so that you could add to his case, why did you even bother saying it? This seems like one of those things best kept to yourself rather than shared with everyone else because it requires a genuine response rather than a calculated one.

Yes because obviously I want people voting for me . Of course I said it in order to pre-empt it from happening.

Actually, your saying that put me in a catch 22. If I voted you, lo and behold, you were right so I must be scum. If I didn't vote you, well, it was because I 'knew' that I would be 'outed as scum' if I did.

[klebian]

I don't see how it makes you scum not voting him... Nor do i see how him being right makes you scum... Bad falty logick... keep up the good work! XD

it doesn't make me scum but it puts me in a difficult situation
basically i'm saying such a 'prediction' was completely unnecessary and put double the meaning on how I voted

[klebian]

Seeing as how we're on D3 and haven't caught any scum, any reasoning behind your vote would be much appreciated. Looking back, I didn't really see anything indicating that you were leaning in that direction, so I'm assuming it has something to do with recent events.

Also, did you not know you were going to be gone during deadline?

K7, I'd still like an answer to my previous question: can you explain why klebian's reasons for voting you are "bull shit"?

I think that's a pretty good start for today.

klebian allways singles me out in every game i play with him, his lurking in this game is is noticable, he says "im kinda waiting for k7" i ask him what hes waiting for he ignores me then i post a vote on tsn instead of crub and he all the sudden votes me, it seems kinda suspicious he would all the sudden try and vote me right before the deadline. i wasnt just "randomly hopping on a wagon" i really thought j dodge was scum and when it came down close 2 the deadline and the votes were so close i decided 2 pick tsn because he looked scummy 2 me the way him and jdodge were attacking crub. now that jdodge turned up town, i dont know about it anymore.

we've played in 2 games together. You were scum in the last one. This isn't supporting my vote on you but rather, your meta is useless. K7, I addressed that the post after I voted you.

[klebian]

will get to this game soon, sorry for the lack of posting

[klebian]

I will first respond to this

Klebian,

The above two posts seem defensive in a way that doesn’t comfortably correspond to town play. If you truly thought Crub was scum his statement about you shouldn’t have bothered you. You would have voted him in the honest belief that he was scum and his statement would have been shown to be scummy nonsense. If you thought another person was most worthy of your vote you would have voted that other person, perhaps pointing out to Crub that your vote wasn’t going on him because he wasn’t quite number one on your list.

These posts have bothered me since I first read them, but I couldn’t quite put my finger on why until now.

If I voted you, lo and behold, you were right so I must be scum.

Well, not if Crub turned out to be scum. And lynching scum, would, theoretically, be what you would be doing with your vote. I mean, there’s no comment about what you feel about Crub’s alignment in either of these. No “and then if you did turn out to be town…”, nothing about “I have made my current feelings about your alignment clear”, which you had when you voted Killa 7. I mean you clearly analyzed your possible strategies for dealing with what Crub had said, but scum hunting didn’t seem to play any part in your calculations.

Thank you for your response.

Well crub had made that prediction, obviously before I had placed a vote. I made my responses to that after I had placed my vote on k7. Your first paragraph rings true for the most part- I

did

place a vote on someone else, and crub had not made any reference to his prediction. So it would seem that my defenses to his prediction are a bit nonsensical, as your second paragraph points out. However, I mainly made those responses because I felt that crub's response to neko's comment on the prediction was not really accurate. He claimed that he said that to stop me from voting him; I was trying to show that it went further than that, it put me in a

potential

(in hindsight, I should have made this word, potential, clear) catch-22 because if I had eventually followed up with a vote on him, and assuming he had either not been lynched, or lynched and turned up not scum (the latter of which did end up happening, as we know), his prediction would have turned up true and I would have been essentially ensnared in the trap he had set for me, knowing he was a townie, even if my logic on a crub vote was rational.

Because that looks like a jumble, I'll try to summarize a little better. I felt that crub was trapping me (and as he said, pre-empting a vote) by making that statement, and while my eventual vote essentially ignored it, I didn't like his comment on the use of that statement because I felt that he was trivializing the situation such a comment would have put me in had I voted crub and he came up town. There was really no benefit to the town as a whole (though there may have been some benefit in terms of survival to crub himself) in making that statement, and it would have passed by as useless if he had not sarcastically (or essentially sarcastically) responded to a reasonable qualm of neko's regarding that prediction.

[klebian]

I'm going to stay with a

vote: k7

I feel like he's done less than minimal scumhunting this game, as I have previously pointed out. His reasons for calling my vote on him bullshit are weak and he still provides flimsy reasoning, even after the fact, for his vote, along with not addressing at all neko's vote on him or the points neko brings up
His wagonvotes are still apparent and seem much like scum trying to get a vote in without needing his own reasoning because 'enough' has been provided by others
I'd like to know who he thinks is scum, and maybe a vote
I don't see where skitzer is getting k7's helpfulness because I'm not really seeing anything

My vote on him yesterday was simply because I saw him as the scummiest. There was time for discussion, but I personally saw neither crub nor tsn as scummy as k7.

Justin, I'd like to specifically know your opinion on k7
I see it on others, and on my voting on k7, but not on k7 himself.

[klebian]

Klebian,

My feeling on Killa Seven is that he does the least amount of work to get by in the thread. Any thread. In every game he’s in. I even defended him in another game, where he turned out to be scum, based on the exact same style of posting he has demonstrated here. The problem is, he’s the same in games where he’s town. Look at mini 570, where he was lynched as town. Look at Mafia 75, where he died as an SK and replaced back in. He may well be scum in this game, and I sure wouldn’t be comfortable with him floating to endgame, but I think there are better folks for today. Korlash for one. TSpN for another. You for a third. I’d rather go for content today, and I’m more than a little uncomfortable at this point with the continuous push toward the easy lynch.

This type of meta, while I realize is pretty valid, is one of my pet peeves. I realize that he probably does little analysis in most games from what everyone, including you, is saying. But I don't like letting someone live for doing nothing because he does nothing every game. But let me look at some other people right now.

I'll start with korlash. Korlash, I really don't see your case on justin. What I see you saying is that he is active, and in this position, activity nearly implies scum. I will show you where your arguments don't make sense.

with so many inactives, lurking only outs you further. It boils down to the town calling you out personally and looking at you as a whole.

Realize that when there are so many inactives, they can't be individually called out because there are a number of people who are just as bad as they are.

basically, active and posting means one person might call youotu on something. lurking at this time means every active person will say yoru name and direct crap at you in either an attempt to get you active, or an attempt to turn the lynch in your direction.

You're essentially making contradictions in saying this. If you are active and are making posts, then you are the one susceptible to have your attacks argued by the few other active players. On the other hand, there are so many lurkers that it's tough to single out a single one without using meta to see which ones are lurking intentionally in this game.
If you meta'd Justin, you would find that he makes good posts fairly regularly in pretty much every game he plays (or, at any rate, I have seen this in the game(s?) I've been with him and the few I've read)
Unfortunately, I find Justin always difficult to attack because he is usually the one keeping the game moving, and he makes good, lengthy posts with good questions and reasonable attacks.

Looking at the korlash case as a whole, I mostly just see the meta that he lurked through deadline lynch here and through part of this day, while posting

heavily

in other games. This is fairly significant,

Skitzer: rather than with replacements, the game can get going with your and others' (including mine) contribution. I see your lackadaisical attitude and this is no better than k7's posting.

I'd like to see k7 post more and I guess I agree that it is better to go for content at this point. I will

unvote

, with a week before deadline. Korlash is good to look at right now. TSN: What do you think of korlash's and justin's recent exchange?

[klebian]

this game isn't going anywhere and skitzer hasn't said anything of real worth in many weeks

vote: skitzer

i'll go with a worthwhile lynch

[klebian]

forced is not quite fair...
day was going way too long with little discussion
i look forward to some contribution from you k7

[klebian]

I can kind of get behind jtdyer's statement. There's not a specific post I can point to, he just feels. . . slippery.

But klebian or k7 are both better choices for today.

Could I have some reasons? You've mentioned a few times that you see me as suspicious but this seems to be a change from previously where you haven't really mentioned me... You don't give me much to defend if you just say I'm scummy... Neko and Eldritch are the only ones who have at least said something.
Eldritch, I'm not sure what exactly you're saying about me. I am scumhunting but what is it that makes my scumhunting encourage a deadline? Also, I note your switch from 775,

Just a vote, if you [Shanba] continue to act non-scummy with a little pressure then I'll probably hop on this Klebian bandwagon. He seems rather suspicious, but not close enough to a lynch for me to bandwagon on him.

to a vote on me in 779 based on "justin's reasoning". A link between you and neko here is noted.

I'm going to reread day 2 and then comment, hopefully later today.

[klebian]

will hopefully post today because i'm vla for the next 4-5 days

[klebian]

Read day 2 and day 3, will do so more in depth when I have more time.
Here are a few things I noted.
Justin's playstyle- I am not quite sure if this is the same in every game but I noted that he asks many questions (which I know he does across the site) but when people respond, he doesn't follow up. Ever. He will respond to questions you ask him in your own response, but that seems to really be it. I thought this was interesting and will later look into this more.
Another thing: Skitzer's really random/weak votes of TSN yesterday. He gave this: "My views on TSN were negative, but my K7 views were semi positive, therefore I guess the only one I find scummy is TSN.." in 724 but in 680 where he presented these views they were obviously very shallow (I hate to make this comparison but probably with less depth than k7 gives) where he called TSN suspicious because he saw crub as 'distinctly town' (and i think it was skitzer who repeated a few times that crub was never 'helping the game')

Again I will have to look into these things deeper simply when I have the time.
For now- TSN, this is not exactly the best way to disprove your point but I don't always focus on everyone when I post. You are saying that I had said little about skitzer when I was willing to vote him [note that I didn't hammer him]. But, note that I have similarly not said much about you and I don't remember saying much about shanba either. Obviously the skitzer not noticing me is key but I'm just trying to point out that what you noted was not unique on one side.

[klebian]

Korlash, are you being intentionally useless? Is that your "fundamental strategy?"

Klebian, K7, I had questions for you on the last page that haven't been answered.

Realized this and would've answered this in my last post if I had time. Just posting to let you know that I am back home and will be responding and elaborating later, today or tomorrow.

[klebian]

klebian, I don't see the link you're trying to make between myself and Eldritch. The fact that we both suspect you? Have I also been voting based on Justin's reasoning?

What I was saying was that in 775, Eldritch's stance on me was that I was

suspicious, but not close enough to a lynch for me to bandwagon on him.

You responded in 777 with

Eldritch, are you voting Shanba primarily because you think he's most likely to be scum, or because you just want pressure on him?

His response didn't make that much sense to me:

To be honest, I had no considered this. Upon reading over Justin's posts once again, I have changed my mind.

With which he unvoted shanba, voted me, and HoSed Korlash. Based on Justin's reasoning, which wasn't really what you had said to him. And he tried to cover up for this somewhat random switch by stating that he was able to drop the case on shanba so easily because it had been weak, which is a pretty lame reason and says things about his fickleness in voting anyway.
So the link I note is how easily and randomly he completely switched gears based on that comment you made. I saw this as you possibly trying to send a message across to him about how there was folly in voting shanba, or something.

Vote klebian.

I thought I already was, but in any case, he remains the obvious next play after skitzer's flip.

Can you explain this? I'm not sure what you mean here based on your previous posts.