Open 59 - Daytalk 12! (Game Over) before 545

[kabenon007]

Wow, serious overreaction with this whole JDodge making a fuss with his PM. I can see where the people who say he is scum are coming from, but I can also see reasons other than his being scum. So I will be refraining from joining the JDodge bandwagon.

Vote:xyzzy

[kabenon007]

shit... I have a habit of doing that...

vote: xyzzy

[kabenon007]

Haha! Ninja posted the mod!

[kabenon007]

Well, a person who is scum would have an advantage of not knowing who his scum partners are and could therefore not worry about his play toward them, if he is being too lenient or bussing too hard or whatever. This enhances the scum play.

I will choose to ignore the last question.

[kabenon007]

Because it is rather stupid to reveal it. With a little cranial muscle you can figure it out.

[kabenon007]

Fuck, did I miss the memo? I forgot this was open and therefore forgot, nay, didn't see that there were no power roles... shit, well, gotta re-think. My bad everyone... ignore the idiot.

[kabenon007]

Haha, incognito, you asked me exactly what I wanted to hear. I chose the xyzzy wagon because I was thinking of the last game he and I played, in which an unfortunate occurence occurred with us as scum. Basically, he accidentally slipped out that he wasn't town. Just wanted to see if anything has changed with him.

[kabenon007]

Well, for some reason my IM isn't working. So I can respond to PM's if necessary, or if others wish, I can try to set up an AIM account.

[kabenon007]

Daytalking.

[kabenon007]

I'm all for it.

[kabenon007]

I'm open to any communications... no one has yet... I am friendless...

[kabenon007]

Wow, vollkan, long time no see! Still haven't changed from my first game, have you? Still making as long of posts as ever.

[kabenon007]

So okay, vollkan, you posted your summary, now what do you make of all this? Any leads from daytalking? Is anyone daytalking? Cuz if they aren't, people might as well post here.

[kabenon007]

Vollkan, you should come over to the xyzzy wagon and maybe we can get something going or something. I'd random bandwagon someone at this point to get some conversation going.

[kabenon007]

Come on xyzzy, if you really are town, say something, so we can have some sort of argument and have somebody slip up and then lynched! Yay!

[kabenon007]

unvote.

I wanted to get participation, not a quick lynch.

[kabenon007]

There hasn't been enough information really to find a meritorious bandwagon. So, by bandwagonning randomly, I hoped to get information. But the wagon grew all too quickly, which I suppose is information in and of itself.

[kabenon007]

I don't think a hammer is necessary, but a -2 might encourage some discussion.

[kabenon007]

I was kinda hoping that votes for a certain person would cause an increase in participation, but it seems that this did not work. If you, vollkan, saw no justification, then why vote for him in the first place?

[kabenon007]

I think it'll get us useful info about the people pushing your wagon and the people trying to defuse it. Why do you think otherwise?

Cuz he's scum and doesn't want to die.

[kabenon007]

I believe that ralph and justen are their first names.

[kabenon007]

I personally don't get dazzled by vollkan's massive posting, as he and I duked it out pretty well in my first game here. Be he town or scum, he does provide much information either way. So I just let it continue. As a side note... he was scum in that game...

[kabenon007]

kabenon, you mentioned as a side note that he was scum in your first game. Are you suggesting that you think he's scum here?

I'm... weary of Mr. Vollkan. As I said before, from what I've gathered he does play like that all the time. I can't read the subtle differences between this game, the first game I played with him, and others, because I haven't played other games with him. So I guess it's more of an IGMEOY and I'll resort to scum hunting rather than debating meta.

[kabenon007]

Heh, meant wary. Not weary. Curse my dyslexia.

[kabenon007]

I agree with JDodge on this one.

Vote: vollkan.

You are in fact dodging questions with your long posts that can seem contentful but shirk around the important stuff sometimes, by preventing reactions. Reactions to the words written on this thread are, in my opinion, the most telling of all the information we have. Okay, so it's not quite THAT important, but it's pretty high up on the list. And your stepping in did in fact hamper those reactions, and therefore the information given to the town. And plus, you are acting way too close to our first game. It's almost word for word.

[kabenon007]

Preventing reactions - Damn right. I intentionally stopped what I believed to be anti-town. I've had it explained to me, and I accept its legitimacy, but I stand by my actions.

The thing is, even if what was happening was anti-town, the reactions it would have caused still could have provided us with information. And information, however gleaned, is not anti-town.

@Mizzy- What should I have done differently? I did think for myself. That is why I said I agree with JDodge. I didn't just say exactly the same things as JDodge did, I said "Yes, this makes sense." And now I am digging deeper.

@Vollkan- The last time we played, I said something, you attacked me long and hard about it, and then, after a little banter, you backed off. Someone pressed you for backing off suddenly and acting as if it hadn't happened and then you said basically exactly the same thing as this post:

I've argued here, and JDodge showed me that my adamancy was in error. Mini 542, however, demonstrates that I held my bombast objection in the best of faith.

That may be true, but it is way too close for my taste to just let slip by. That one isn't real condemning, but it is definitely not in your favor.

[kabenon007]

Ohh of course. So, before I ask you to clarify, you say it is 358 "almost word for word" - but now it turns out that all you are referring to is me accepting someone else's argument in the end. And that's obviously scummy.

You blow things way out of proportion. I said, you may recall, it isn't that big of a deciding factor for me. It just didn't help. It was like another little rock added to a boulder, or some other such metaphor.

[kabenon007]

Probably not, I probably can't find it, I'm really busy with classes at the moment, however, if I find time to do it, I will try. I'm terrible at digging up old posts though.

In an instant, what was a pretty strong accusation (ie. my play here allegedly being similar to my play in Newbie 358) is shown to be an absolute nullity

The thing is, I didn't mean for it to be a strong accusation, so the fact that you took it to be a strong accusation says to me that it actually has some merit.

[kabenon007]

In an instant, what was a

pretty strong accusation

(ie. my play here allegedly being similar to my play in Newbie 358) is shown to be an absolute nullity

Followed closely by...

I didn't take it as a strong accusation

Hm... which one is the truth?

[kabenon007]

No, you see, the fact that he called it a strong accusation and said "WAS" as you pointed out, meant that he took it, at one point, to be a strong accusation. As in the past. But then it was downgraded. But at one point he did in fact take it as a strong accusation. Why are you defending vollkan for him?

[kabenon007]

Because when I said it, and when he thought it was a strong accusation, it wasn't really all that strong of an accusation that I made, at least in my mind. The fact that he thought it was strong means that it must have struck something with him.

@Mizzy- Yes you sort of attacked me, but it was in the process of defending vollkan's posts. You take a stance on vollkan's posts that is not accusatory, and therefore is defensive of them.

[kabenon007]

What neutral ground can there be when I comes to posts? You either believe them, or you don't.

[kabenon007]

Yes, you can reserve your opinion, which Mizzy did not do. She put her opinion out there.

[kabenon007]

No, she didn't. She pointed something out to see your reaction.

Yes... and that isn't putting her opinion out there...

[kabenon007]

First, I am in no way diverting attention to Mizzy, I see something, I attack it, I by no means stopped my attacking of vollkan, so if you could please tell me how that is diverting attention? Thanks.

My main point here is that you took what I have said was not a strong accusation, and you called it a strong accusation. I did not intend for it to be such a strong accusation, yet you interpretted it that way. Did you not, vollkan?

[kabenon007]

Meta is in my opinion not a strong tell, and therefore isn't a strong accusation. If you took it to be strong, that's your priority. You can do what you like.

[kabenon007]

Not really. I just said it because while it did not condemn you, it certainly did not help you. I find meta to be a good way to maybe begin a search, but not for a full fledged attack.

[kabenon007]

What do you mean I cheapened it?

[kabenon007]

Okay, but with a very townie attitude like yours, one which everyone almost automatically believes, any discrepencies (sp?) I find I will point out, and I think are therefore arguable.

[kabenon007]

It is a small piece, yes, I believe that.

[kabenon007]

What more is there to say? I've defended myself on things. Granted, I haven't been around much to formulate new opinions on things. Adel's play continues to confuse me, vollkan I think I am confusing between my two games with him, and I can't differentiate between the two. And JDodge adds nothing to the conversation save yay, lynch kabenon, lolz. Not that I'm doing much better, but he at leasts claims to be around.

[kabenon007]

I believe he is dodging posts, hiding behind his long lengths of text and using them to make it look like he is adding a great deal of content without actually doing so. If you can say it with less words, then say it with less words. It need not be prettied up with repetition and huge explanations. In my opinon, they are just empty words.

[kabenon007]

I'd really like to know why you find me suspicious, Phate.

[kabenon007]

Vollkan, you should come over to the xyzzy wagon and maybe we can get something going or something. I'd random bandwagon someone at this point to get some conversation going.

Pushing an xyzzylynch.

Yes...

Come on xyzzy, if you really are town, say something, so we can have some sort of argument and have somebody slip up and then lynched! Yay!

Something to point to later if you're blamed for xyzzy's lynch.

Or it could be an attempt to get some information that didn't come from the mislynch of a townie.

I don't think a hammer is necessary, but a -2 might encourage some discussion.

Still pushing the xyzzy wagon.

The wagon, not the lynch. Important differentiation there.

unvote. I wanted to get participation, not a quick lynch.

Hopping off the wagon when a lynch draws near. This wouldn't be that damning if not for your next few posts.

There hasn't been enough information really to find a meritorious bandwagon. So, by bandwagonning randomly, I hoped to get information. But the wagon grew all too quickly, which I suppose is information in and of itself.

Holding onto the sanctimonious "I wash my hands of this" attitude, and preparing to blame others for the xyzzy wagon.

Well, do you not agree the wagon grew way too quickly? If you had wanted information in the form of discussion and not a lynch, would you not unvote?

I don't think a hammer is necessary, but a -2 might encourage some discussion.

Prodding the wagon along from the safety of the Not Voting area.

You already attacked me for this above, so I won't respond to it here, you're just trying to make it look like you have more on me than you do.

I was kinda hoping that votes for a certain person would cause an increase in participation, but it seems that this did not work. If you, vollkan, saw no justification, then why vote for him in the first place?

Setting up a possible target on D2 after xyzzy is lynched. Incidentally, who did kab go after now immediately on D2? Coincidence?

Don't you think about who you will be voting for the next day should things not work out? I merely asked a question, and you Phate, went back and took it and molded it to mean what you wanted it to mean. I saw something I didn't like, I spoke up about it. Doesn't mean I was "setting up" next day's lynch.

Why do you think otherwise?

'Cuz he's scum and doesn't want to die.

And then right here, you're encouraging an xyzzy lynch again; perhaps worried the lynch won't go through and having to prod it. Doesn't fit with your last two posts.
I really can't see kabtown making that series of posts.

You need to get your sarcasm detector fixed.

[kabenon007]

And when I turn up town?

[kabenon007]

You mean in this game, or in general, Incognito?

[kabenon007]

Well, he's playing like he always plays, or at least every time I've seen him play, can't fault him for that. But his play does not do much in line of giving us much information. I find most of his posts can be boiled down to random vendettas against a person he thinks may or may not be scum. Don't really know what to make of him. If I absolutely had to label him one way or the other, I would go with town just on the fact I see nothing incredibly scummy, therefore is town.

[kabenon007]

Like, he gets a person in his sights and doesn't provide information about them, he just goes "Oh lynch so-and-so die scum die lols."

[kabenon007]

Jdodge just basically told me that he hasn't been reading the thread very much, except for skimming my posts and trying to trounce them, because if taken by itself, it would appear that my post was against vollkan, but if taken in context, it is obvious that I was talking about Jdodge. And only scum don't read threads.

unvote, vote:Jdodge

And Mizzy, you are doing nothing to assuage my thoughts of you being scum trying to butter up to vollkan.

[kabenon007]

Why 3) is wrong Well, it mightn't be wrong, but you haven't given evidence. Prove to me that scum are less likely to read the thread with a toothcomb.

Quick question about this, I want to make sure I'm answering what you want me to answer: do you want me to prove that scum don't read threads, or do you want me to examine the possibilities of other people not reading threads?

[kabenon007]

If neither is sufficient, then what good would my providing answers do?

[kabenon007]

Well, scum don't have to read thread because they know who the scum are, and therefore do not have to search the thread for information as to who they need to investigate. They can just pick and choose and make up crap to instigate things against townies, or better yet just allow townies to kill each other off. So scum can save themselves time by not reading useless information. And I see no reason that any other role would not read the thread.

[kabenon007]

Why? Isn't it entirely possible (and more likely, for that matter) for a scum to not pay attention than a townie, especially if they are in the middle of an attack on someone?

[kabenon007]

But why would a townie do such things? You dodged my main question there, vollkan.

[kabenon007]

I said it was more likely a scum would do it than a townie, so I assumed that you would, in refuting it, tell me why a townie would do such a thing. I've used this same argument on other persons, and it has worked in the past. You may just be skeptic, that's all. JDodge either made a mistake or mis-read the thread, this is true. You choose to believe whatever reasons you wish, I choose to believe the reason is that he got in the heat of the argument or whatever and didn't fully read what was necessary to make the proper argument against me. If he had just refuted my argument, it would have been slightly less damning. But the fact that he used my post (wrongly) in an effort to attack me tells me that he was just looking for ways to attack me and got a little carried away.

[kabenon007]

How in the world am I supposed to prove what he did or didn't do off the computer? He chose his words carefully before he put them on here. How am I supposed to prove that what he placed on this thread is the result of an error or scummy behavior? You ask the impossible in this regard vollkan.

I'm not believing anything. I am being, as you said, skeptical.

If you do not believe anything, then why are you only arguing one side? If you believe nothing, should you not be neutral? And yet you obviously support one side over the other.

[kabenon007]

I'm saying it can be seen in either light, and in this case I see it as scummy. If you choose not to, that's your priority. The truth of the matter is that, statistically speaking, scum are more likely to not read the thread than town. And JDodge doesn't strike me as a townie who would not read the thread or would make such a simple mistake as misjudge who the post was aimed at if the post in question was only one or two posts under the question you posed.

[kabenon007]

You misunderstood. I can't post now about it, I have class, but when I return, there shall be some clarification. You misunderstood something that has become a point of contention that I believe can alleviate some stress here.

[kabenon007]

Can we see some statistics that you didn't pull out of your ass to back up the claim that scum read less often than townies? Can you provide proof that said person making mistakes is because their of their alignment and lack of reading the thread and not due to any other factor such as level of business or because of an honest mistake?

Sigh... you make this too easy for us Mizzy. You're next on my list, just so you know. For the statistics part of your post, one need only use that lump three feet above their ass. Townies simply do not not read the thread. They might make a mistake reading the thread, they might misinterpret, but they will always read the thread, unless they are just poor players, which don't even try to convince me that JDodge is. Therefore, simple logic dictates that scum are more likely to not read than townies.

As for the second part of your question, this:

Can you provide proof that said person making mistakes is because their of their alignment and lack of reading the thread and not due to any other factor such as level of business or because of an honest mistake?

I can just as easily turn that quote back around on you and ask you to provide proof that said person making mistakes is due to any other factor such as level of business or because of an honest mistake instead of their alignment and lack of reading. The fact is, you can't prove this concretely, as vollkan said already, so your point is therefore null.

As for clarification, vollkan, you assumed that when I said I had used this argument before that it resulted in my catching scum. What I meant was that I had gotten into an argument similar to this one, and people backed me up on this. Solid players. I was taught this tell by Adele I believe, and have since used it in a few of my other games, and it was agreed on by most, if not all players present. So I never actually lynched anyone on account of it, but it has been used and praised in games before.

[kabenon007]

Also, in response to Guardian:
You made the same mistake I did. There are no power roles in this game. I had thought that maybe the reason that (I believe it was JDodge) JDodge wasn't wanting to answer some sort of question was because he was a power role, and I didn't want to say it, lest I be condemned for revealing a power role. But then Mr. Sir Tornado enlightened me to the fact that there were no power roles in this game.

[kabenon007]

Got me on the mind or something, vollkan? You misquoted Xtoxm as me.

[kabenon007]

I knew it.

[kabenon007]

And then what would you call my "painting someone in a bad light" if I were town? You are assuming I am scum. Not a good thing to do. Besides, my attack is on JDodge, not Mizzy, at the moment. I merely said it seems that she is trying to buddy up to vollkan. Did I vote her? No. So how is that trying to deflect suspicion?

[kabenon007]

All talk and no action... what do you call basically an entire page of me and vollkan going at it? That's not action... hm... I guess I'll write an entire page next time? Commitment is something I get a lot of flack for, I'd rather be sure of myself than just fling my vote around.

That being said, I've only had my vote on two players really this game. JDodge and vollkan. If that isn't committing, I'm not sure what more you want from me Mizzy.

My case against JDodge is not insubstantial, you are just all listening to vollkan and not taking into account my arguments. You all just listen to him, thinking him to be the all knowing voice of wisdom. I learned that scumtell from very experienced players, it is not insubstantial, and yet you all disbelieve it just because vollkan is arguing against it.

[kabenon007]

Exactly...it was a page of banter. It accomplished nothing, and within that page, I can't find evidence of you getting off your rear and doing anything. Just debating. All talk, no action. A LOT of talk, really, and no action. You even failed to defend yourself properly.

Sigh, at least she's consistent. Consistent in her refusal to see wrong in vollkan. He does exactly the same thing I did that whole page, except that you only target me. Pay attention to this, as this should cause red flags in some people's scumdars. Talk is action in this game, it's the only action we have. Any posts, be they short or long, provide some sort of information. And obviously I didn't fail to defend myself, as some people's opinions have changed of me. Granted, they changed back, but that's beside the point.

Commitment problems from you come in more forms that just lack of voting. You seem to try and put as little real content in your actions and posts as possible, and saying something plainly, and clearly, is a form of commitment in this type of game.

I have voted for basically only two people this entire game. JDodge and Vollkan. How is that not showing committment in some way? You are very selective in what you bring to the table. I also believe you are not voting me. Are you noncomittal as well? We should make a club.

I've read and reviewed your arguments very carefully, Kab, and I find them to be insubstantial. Volkan's arguments and opinions have nothing to do with that conclusion of mine.

Tell me what is insubstantial about them, so that I may refute certain parts rather than try to read your mind and guess which parts are insubstantial, so that I may better give information.

I also don't believe in scumtells in the same way that the majority tends to, on these forums. There are only a few reliable universal scumtells, and this is not one of them. So honestly, I don't care where you learned it, or how experienced those people were, it's not a valid reason for me to believe or follow you, and even though I have offered you a chance to sway me, you have not even bothered to TRY to do so with anything worth giving a second glance to.

If this is the case, then you view scumtells through biased eyes. You do not like them and therefore carry a certain view about them even before you hear about them, and it seems to me that it is likely that you wouldn't listen to the greatest scumtell in the world. Therefore, there is nothing I can do in relation to trying to convince you that this tell is worthwhile.

For the record, that whole paragraph I just quoted by you (right above this) comes off as whiny, childish, and a pity party invitation. It's a serious blow to what little credibility you had in my eyes.

Whiny, according to dictionary.com is complaining, fretful, cranky.
I complain about nothing. Mostly it's sarcasm. I take what you accused me of, repeated it so anyone who hadn't seen your accusations might know what I was referring to, and then refuted it. That's not complaining, that's going about refuting your argument in a logical and organized fashion. I am however cranky, but wouldn't you be too if no one is believing you?
And I can't think of something clever to say about not being fretful, but, eh, I'm not. That about sums it up.

[kabenon007]

Vollkan, I've already said that it's an obvious thought process. Scum have reasons not to read the thread, even if that is one out of one hundred scum that don't read thread, that is still more than townies who don't read thread.

Mizzy once again attacks my posts, reducing the so called fluff. Most of said fluff that she crossed out is directed at her and so she declares it to be fluff. Awesome.

unvote, vote: Mizzy.

[kabenon007]

Eh, if being suicidal is the only way to open the eyes of the town once I am dead and gone to the deeds of Mizzy and perhaps vollkan and JDodge, then so be it. Nothing else was working. Maybe once I am revealed to be town, you'll think more about what I said.

[kabenon007]

Yeah, I won't quit either, even though I sucked it up this game. Both my scum picks were wrong... I hate you vollkan...

[kabenon007]

I must admit, I was about to go off on you at the end, but perhaps that was just me getting pissed at the world...

[kabenon007]

Perhaps some power roles, or at least some advantage to give to the town, it seemed heavily favored towards the scum.