Open 59 - Daytalk 12! (Game Over) before 545

[Adel]

read this newbie game if you want to see Mizzy play as town

unvote, vote Mizzy

with me if you want to lynch her as scum.

I've seen Mizzy play

like this

as town before (can't reference, ongoing).

how would you characterize her play?

[Guardian]

Let me try a different tact:

Mizzy, in one post in your own words, without referencing a case you or someone else has previously made, could you explain why you find kab suspicious?

[Incognito]

I've read over everything again, and I feel like Phate's case against kabenon along with my own feelings about kabenon around the time of the xyzzy/JDodge wagons both lead me to believe that kabenon is scum. I feel like he's had ample time now to address the holes that have been found about his cases against both JDodge and vollkan, but he's still failed to do so. I also feel like Mizzy hit it right on the nose here when she mentioned this about kabenon:

In fact, this bullshit case is such a distraction that I can't imagine a kabtown would be doing such a thing. He'd be trying to validly scumhunt, not pull random "facts" out of thin air that are actually groundless opinions that are most likely based on his own tendencies of playing scum himself...in which case, there is proof in this thread (his making errors due to mis-reading, whether intentionally or unintentionally) that fit him square into his own case for scum.

kabenon

has

been referencing very ambiguous meta-arguments that simply can't be backed up with sound evidence found within the thread which make his arguments against others seem somewhat contrived. I feel like he's floundering, trying desperately to paint someone in a bad light in the hopes of gaining support but is simply unable to do so. I also disliked his opportunistic vote on vollkan that occurred at a time that vollkan was experiencing the most pressure (referencing that he agrees with JDodge's arguments) here:

I agree with JDodge on this one.

Vote: vollkan.

You are in fact dodging questions with your long posts that can seem contentful but shirk around the important stuff sometimes, by preventing reactions. Reactions to the words written on this thread are, in my opinion, the most telling of all the information we have. Okay, so it's not quite THAT important, but it's pretty high up on the list. And your stepping in did in fact hamper those reactions, and therefore the information given to the town. And plus, you are acting way too close to our first game. It's almost word for word.

and then his complete flip-flop of opinion to vote for JDodge here:

Jdodge just basically told me that he hasn't been reading the thread very much, except for skimming my posts and trying to trounce them, because if taken by itself, it would appear that my post was against vollkan, but if taken in context, it is obvious that I was talking about Jdodge. And only scum don't read threads.

unvote, vote:Jdodge

And now recently instead of continuing to find evidence to support his cases and diminish the suspicions of a number of players within the thread, he's pushed that all aside and cast completely deflective suspicion towards Mizzy, another person whom he had never expressed any suspicion towards until Mizzy directed an attack on him. This recent attack against Mizzy feels OMGUSy to me. Because of all this, I feel comfortable putting kabenon at L-1.

Vote: kabenon007

[JDodge]

read this newbie game if you want to see Mizzy play as town

unvote, vote Mizzy

with me if you want to lynch her as scum.

I've seen Mizzy play

like this

as town before (can't reference, ongoing).

how would you characterize her play?

i can't really give an exact wording to it lest i reveal info

[Adel]

i can't really give an exact wording to it lest i reveal info

sorry, I meant in this game.

[kabenon007]

And then what would you call my "painting someone in a bad light" if I were town? You are assuming I am scum. Not a good thing to do. Besides, my attack is on JDodge, not Mizzy, at the moment. I merely said it seems that she is trying to buddy up to vollkan. Did I vote her? No. So how is that trying to deflect suspicion?

[Incognito]

And then what would you call my "painting someone in a bad light" if I were town? You are assuming I am scum. Not a good thing to do. Besides, my attack is on JDodge, not Mizzy, at the moment. I merely said it seems that she is trying to buddy up to vollkan. Did I vote her? No. So how is that trying to deflect suspicion?

A deflection of suspicion doesn't necessarily require an actual vote. In your case, you mentioned that Mizzy is number 2 on your list after JDodge. What happened to your previous suspicions against vollkan? Where does he rank on your list?

[Mizzy]

Let me try a different tact:

Mizzy, in one post in your own words, without referencing a case you or someone else has previously made, could you explain why you find kab suspicious?

I can try, yes. I will try to explain my feelings on him as best as I can.

Kab comes off as all talk and no action. What I mean there is that he makes accusatory posts that reference prior events that are recollections of those events and doesn't bother to go back and make sure. He seems to have a bit of a commitment problem until he gets backed into a corner, and even then he's as fickle as the wind. He is trying very hard to build cases that are insubstantial. He's playing on the defensive, not the aggressive, and I can't remember him doing very much of what I consider to be real scumhunting. All in all, his plays seem half-hearted, at best.

[Guardian]

Hm. that doesn't sound like bullshit.

:\ I'm gonna read back and see if I can remember why I think kab is town.

[Guardian]

Hm. It is pretty much ONLY my PM convo with him, where he could be making up BS that is specifically targeted at me.

When I replaced in, I was suspicious of him, asking him a question about vollkan, but then I got sypathy for him when I PM'd him, thinking he was just a newer player having troubles (he complained about all the experience in this game, etc). looking at it, hist join date is only a little after mine...

and he could be scum having troubles. really, I might just be sympathetic to him because I've PM'd him the most, and that's dumb.

Kab, in a short, brief response, could you address Mizzy's "case" right there?

In public? I'd appreciate it.

[kabenon007]

All talk and no action... what do you call basically an entire page of me and vollkan going at it? That's not action... hm... I guess I'll write an entire page next time? Commitment is something I get a lot of flack for, I'd rather be sure of myself than just fling my vote around.

That being said, I've only had my vote on two players really this game. JDodge and vollkan. If that isn't committing, I'm not sure what more you want from me Mizzy.

My case against JDodge is not insubstantial, you are just all listening to vollkan and not taking into account my arguments. You all just listen to him, thinking him to be the all knowing voice of wisdom. I learned that scumtell from very experienced players, it is not insubstantial, and yet you all disbelieve it just because vollkan is arguing against it.

[Mizzy]

That type of post is exactly why I suspect you so strongly, Kab. You don't learn from your mistakes and you don't pay attention.

All talk and no action... what do you call basically an entire page of me and vollkan going at it? That's not action... hm... I guess I'll write an entire page next time? Commitment is something I get a lot of flack for, I'd rather be sure of myself than just fling my vote around.

Exactly...it was a page of banter. It accomplished nothing, and within that page, I can't find evidence of you getting off your rear and doing anything. Just debating. All talk, no action. A LOT of talk, really, and no action. You even failed to defend yourself properly.

Commitment problems from you come in more forms that just lack of voting. You seem to try and put as little real content in your actions and posts as possible, and saying something plainly, and clearly, is a form of commitment in this type of game.

My case against JDodge is not insubstantial, you are just all listening to vollkan and not taking into account my arguments. You all just listen to him, thinking him to be the all knowing voice of wisdom. I learned that scumtell from very experienced players, it is not insubstantial, and yet you all disbelieve it just because vollkan is arguing against it.

I've read and reviewed your arguments very carefully, Kab, and I find them to be insubstantial. Volkan's arguments and opinions have nothing to do with that conclusion of mine.

I also don't believe in scumtells in the same way that the majority tends to, on these forums. There are only a few reliable universal scumtells, and this is not one of them. So honestly, I don't care where you learned it, or how experienced those people were, it's not a valid reason for me to believe or follow you, and even though I have offered you a chance to sway me, you have not even bothered to TRY to do so with anything worth giving a second glance to.

What more do I want from you? Answer Guardian's question. Properly.

For the record, that whole paragraph I just quoted by you (right above this) comes off as whiny, childish, and a pity party invitation. It's a serious blow to what little credibility you had in my eyes.

[Guardian]

^I agree with most of that post .

I'd like you to quote Mizzy's argument sentence by sentence and respond to bits and pieces, kab.

[kabenon007]

Exactly...it was a page of banter. It accomplished nothing, and within that page, I can't find evidence of you getting off your rear and doing anything. Just debating. All talk, no action. A LOT of talk, really, and no action. You even failed to defend yourself properly.

Sigh, at least she's consistent. Consistent in her refusal to see wrong in vollkan. He does exactly the same thing I did that whole page, except that you only target me. Pay attention to this, as this should cause red flags in some people's scumdars. Talk is action in this game, it's the only action we have. Any posts, be they short or long, provide some sort of information. And obviously I didn't fail to defend myself, as some people's opinions have changed of me. Granted, they changed back, but that's beside the point.

Commitment problems from you come in more forms that just lack of voting. You seem to try and put as little real content in your actions and posts as possible, and saying something plainly, and clearly, is a form of commitment in this type of game.

I have voted for basically only two people this entire game. JDodge and Vollkan. How is that not showing committment in some way? You are very selective in what you bring to the table. I also believe you are not voting me. Are you noncomittal as well? We should make a club.

I've read and reviewed your arguments very carefully, Kab, and I find them to be insubstantial. Volkan's arguments and opinions have nothing to do with that conclusion of mine.

Tell me what is insubstantial about them, so that I may refute certain parts rather than try to read your mind and guess which parts are insubstantial, so that I may better give information.

I also don't believe in scumtells in the same way that the majority tends to, on these forums. There are only a few reliable universal scumtells, and this is not one of them. So honestly, I don't care where you learned it, or how experienced those people were, it's not a valid reason for me to believe or follow you, and even though I have offered you a chance to sway me, you have not even bothered to TRY to do so with anything worth giving a second glance to.

If this is the case, then you view scumtells through biased eyes. You do not like them and therefore carry a certain view about them even before you hear about them, and it seems to me that it is likely that you wouldn't listen to the greatest scumtell in the world. Therefore, there is nothing I can do in relation to trying to convince you that this tell is worthwhile.

For the record, that whole paragraph I just quoted by you (right above this) comes off as whiny, childish, and a pity party invitation. It's a serious blow to what little credibility you had in my eyes.

Whiny, according to dictionary.com is complaining, fretful, cranky.
I complain about nothing. Mostly it's sarcasm. I take what you accused me of, repeated it so anyone who hadn't seen your accusations might know what I was referring to, and then refuted it. That's not complaining, that's going about refuting your argument in a logical and organized fashion. I am however cranky, but wouldn't you be too if no one is believing you?
And I can't think of something clever to say about not being fretful, but, eh, I'm not. That about sums it up.

[Guardian]

That's what I meant, but wrong post. There is a lot of overlap, but if you could do the non-overlap parts from 432 as well that would be great.

[Mizzy]

Sigh, at least she's consistent. Consistent in her refusal to see wrong in vollkan. He does exactly the same thing I did that whole page, except that you only target me. Pay attention to this, as this should cause red flags in some people's scumdars. Talk is action in this game, it's the only action we have. Any posts, be they short or long, provide some sort of information. And obviously I didn't fail to defend myself, as some people's opinions have changed of me. Granted, they changed back, but that's beside the point.

1) I never said I didn't see wrong in Volkan. Don't put words into my mouth, because I'll bite your arm off.

2) Volkan did NOT do exactly what you did. The fact that you think what you and he did were exactly the same shows that you didn't read it.

3) Talk is NOT action when it's empty talk.

4) You did fail to defend yourself in my eyes, and no, the fact that they changed back is very, very important.

I have voted for basically only two people this entire game. JDodge and Vollkan. How is that not showing committment in some way? You are very selective in what you bring to the table. I also believe you are not voting me. Are you noncomittal as well? We should make a club.

Again, you didn't

read

. I already said how that's not sufficient commitment. Look:

Commitment problems from you come in

more forms

that just lack of voting.

You seem to try and put as little real content in your actions and posts as possible, and saying something plainly, and clearly, is a form of commitment in this type of game.

Tell me what is insubstantial about them, so that I may refute certain parts rather than try to read your mind and guess which parts are insubstantial, so that I may better give information.

1) You use completely made-up "facts" and "statistics" to back up your claims that are unprovable and have no supporting data.

2) You make points that are incomplete or wholly incorrect because you post without double-checking the information you're presenting (aka getting past facts incorrect and presenting them as truth.)

3) You build cases around "scumtells" that you constantly perform yourself, the most blatant of which is the "scum don't read threads" bit from you, when there are multiple proven spots in this game where you have been caught not reading the thread.

4) You blow off your inconsistencies, misrepresentations, illusions, and mistakes without actually explaining them, nor do you make any noticeable attempt to avoid making them again in the future.

5) You selectively ignore parts of sentences, posts, and cases against you and ask for things when they have already been said because you are either too lazy or couldn't be f*cked to read the thread yourself.

6) You insert insults, passive-aggressive jibes, and fluff into your defenses to make them appear more "full."

7) When you are asked to answer questions, give reasons, or own up to your actions, you hesitate until the last possible moment, and often attempt to direct attention onto someone else without ever actually responding sufficiently, unless you are asked in such a way that you cannot dodge.

If this is the case, then you view scumtells through biased eyes. You do not like them and therefore carry a certain view about them even before you hear about them, and it seems to me that it is likely that you wouldn't listen to the greatest scumtell in the world. Therefore, there is nothing I can do in relation to trying to convince you that this tell is worthwhile.

Of course I view scumtells as mostly utter nonsense, however, I am more than willing to see them as valid with sufficient proof. You, instead of providing proof, choose to attack me. That's as good as admitting you have no proof. I could say a scumtell is someone with blue in their avatar, and if I present it with no truth or evidence to back it up, I would expect everyone to shoot me down. I'm shooting your evidence-less scumtells down. Provide me with evidence or get a better scumtell list.

Whiny, according to dictionary.com is complaining, fretful, cranky.
I complain about nothing. Mostly it's sarcasm. I take what you accused me of, repeated it so anyone who hadn't seen your accusations might know what I was referring to, and then refuted it. That's not complaining, that's going about refuting your argument in a logical and organized fashion. I am however cranky, but wouldn't you be too if no one is believing you?
And I can't think of something clever to say about not being fretful, but, eh, I'm not. That about sums it up.

According to Guardian:

When I replaced in, I was suspicious of him, asking him a question about vollkan, but then I got sypathy for him when I PM'd him, thinking he was just a newer player having troubles

(he complained about all the experience in this game, etc)

. looking at it, hist join date is only a little after mine...

And these are pretty cranky, complainy and fretful, not to mention childish:

I am however cranky, but wouldn't you be too if no one is believing you?

My case against JDodge is not insubstantial, you are just all listening to vollkan and not taking into account my arguments. You all just listen to him, thinking him to be the all knowing voice of wisdom.

Ball's back in your court.

[Adel]

That is the Mizzy play I would expect to see with a pro-town alignment.

unvote

[Mizzy]

Oh, and just to prove my point about the fluffed-up Kab posts, I have crossed out all of the fluff from this one:

Sigh, at least she's consistent. Consistent in her refusal to see wrong in vollkan.

He does exactly the same thing I did that whole page, except that you only target me.

Pay attention to this, as this should cause red flags in some people's scumdars.

Talk is action in this game, it's the only action we have. Any posts, be they short or long, provide some sort of information. And obviously I didn't fail to defend myself, as some people's opinions have changed of me.

Granted, they changed back, but that's beside the point.

I have voted for basically only two people this entire game. JDodge and Vollkan. How is that not showing committment in some way?

You are very selective in what you bring to the table. I also believe you are not voting me. Are you noncomittal as well? We should make a club.

Tell me what is insubstantial about them, so that I may refute certain parts

rather than try to read your mind and guess which parts are insubstantial, so that I may better give information.

If this is the case, then you view scumtells through biased eyes.

You do not like them and therefore carry a certain view about them even before you hear about them, and it seems to me that it is likely that you wouldn't listen to the greatest scumtell in the world.

Therefore, there is nothing I can do in relation to trying to convince you that this tell is worthwhile.

Whiny, according to dictionary.com is complaining, fretful, cranky.

I complain about nothing. Mostly it's sarcasm.

I take what you accused me of, repeated it so anyone who hadn't seen your accusations might know what I was referring to, and then refuted it. That's not complaining, that's going about refuting your argument in a logical and organized fashion. I am however cranky, but wouldn't you be too if no one is believing you?
And I can't think of something clever to say about not being fretful, but, eh, I'm not. That about sums it up.

P.S.

I voted your scum-encrusted rear in post #392. READ THE THREAD.

[Guardian]

I'm pretty convinced, actually. Kab, I'd like to hear your specific response as to why you don't go back and confirm things in thread, but I'm nearly dropping the hammer.

[vollkan]

When I replaced in, I was suspicious of him, asking him a question about vollkan, but then I got sypathy for him when I PM'd him, thinking he was just a newer player having troubles (he complained about all the experience in this game, etc). looking at it, hist join date is only a little after mine...

Join date is deceptive Guardian. He only has 760 posts. He's hardly a "newbie", but that's worth keeping in mind, regardless of how scummy his play has been.

Exactly...it was a page of banter. It accomplished nothing, and within that page, I can't find evidence of you getting off your rear and doing anything. Just debating. All talk, no action. A LOT of talk, really, and no action. You even failed to defend yourself properly.

Sigh, at least she's consistent. Consistent in her refusal to see wrong in vollkan. He does exactly the same thing I did that whole page, except that you only target me. Pay attention to this, as this should cause red flags in some people's scumdars. Talk is action in this game, it's the only action we have. Any posts, be they short or long, provide some sort of information. And obviously I didn't fail to defend myself, as some people's opinions have changed of me. Granted, they changed back, but that's beside the point.

You completely miss the point. I assume Mizzy is referring to Page 16, focussing on my critique of your attacks on Jdodge.

I'll run through the discussion on that issue to show you why your side was just "banter":
Kab votes JDodge for apparently proving that he is not paying attention.
Vollkan deconstructs the reasoning Kab is using and shows it rests on two invalid assumptions (Numbers 2 and 3 of the list)
Kab asks me whether I want him to prove that scum don't read threads, or to examine the likelihood of other roles reading threads.
Voll tells him that both are needed but neither suffices.
Kab says "If neither is sufficient, then what good would my providing answers do? "
I explain in detail exactly how this works.
Kab makes a theory-based "Scum will" argument.
I show how empty this is by refuting it with an alternative.
Kab then ignores the effect of what I just did, by saying that his is "entirely possible"
I acknowledge it is "entirely possible", but maintain my original point - that he has proven nothing.
Kab then dodges my point again, by flipping the onus of proof and asking me to prove why a townie might not read, saying I dodged his "main question".
I point out that he never asked me such a question, but I answered it anyway: reasonable error.
Kab again maintains his flipped onus and says:

I said it was more likely a scum would do it than a townie, so I assumed that you would, in refuting it, tell me why a townie would do such a thing.

Effectively: "I made an assertion, so I assumed you would prove it wrong". Then he goes on to try and slither out of things by throwing everything back onto belief. Then he reiterates that JDodge abused his post, ignoring everything I had been saying.

I then tell him this: that he is flipping the onus, that he's appealing to beliefs and that he's making conspiracies. The same point I had been making again and again which he has been dodging.

Then he asks me how the hell is he meant to prove what JDodge did. And he asks me how I can say I don't believe anything when I am taking a side.

I then tell Kab, again, that the onus is on him to justify his assertion. And I explain the obvious: That I am neutral in regards to JDodge's alignment on this point, but that I strongly dispute Kab's "case".

Kab then makes another appeal to personal beliefs, saying that he sees it as scummy and that I can choose not to. Then he throws up a bullshit reference to statistics (which he's still failed to provide ) and says JDodge is not the type to make a mistake like that. Again, all assertions, no evidence and he dodges the thrust of my argument.

I point out his appeals to beliefs, that he now owes us meta and stats and that JDodge is probably human.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In short, what Kab says is just empty words - he's posting

around

my argument by trying to flip the onus onto me, and appeal to beliefs, and so on. All of this has the effect of trying to escape from having to justify himself.

Finally, @Kab: I can haz statiztix?

[kabenon007]

Vollkan, I've already said that it's an obvious thought process. Scum have reasons not to read the thread, even if that is one out of one hundred scum that don't read thread, that is still more than townies who don't read thread.

Mizzy once again attacks my posts, reducing the so called fluff. Most of said fluff that she crossed out is directed at her and so she declares it to be fluff. Awesome.

unvote, vote: Mizzy.

[vollkan]

Vollkan, I've already said that it's an obvious thought process. Scum have reasons not to read the thread, even if that is one out of one hundred scum that don't read thread, that is still more than townies who don't read thread.

Scum have just as many valid reasons to read the thread as carefully as possible than they do to skim through. You've proven nothing.

I assume that by "read the thread" you mean pay ultra-close attention to detail.

Since you have failed to prove either of your assertions ("that scum don't read" and "that town do") the rest of this post is bullshit.

Mizzy once again attacks my posts, reducing the so called fluff. Most of said fluff that she crossed out is directed at her and so she declares it to be fluff. Awesome. unvote, vote: Mizzy.

And again, he fires off at another target

Let me review the 'fluff':

Sigh, at least she's consistent. Consistent in her refusal to see wrong in vollkan.

Bullshit. She's been critical of the arguments against me, but she's hardly canonised me.

Pay attention to this, as this should cause red flags in some people's scumdars.

Bullshit. What she said was true, so you are just calling her scummy here with no basis, other than your assertion of disagreement.

Granted, they changed back, but that's beside the point.

I'm not sure this bit is actually fluff. The fact people changed back just reflects how your play is being viewed, which is important.

You are very selective in what you bring to the table.

Assertion.

I also believe you are not voting me. Are you noncomittal as well? We should make a club.

Not fluff. She had voted you though. YOU AREN'T READING THE THREAD!! The stuff about her being noncommital is meaningless swiping.

...rather than try to read your mind and guess which parts are insubstantial, so that I may better give information.

You're just tagging on an obnoxious ending.

You do not like them and therefore carry a certain view about them even before you hear about them, and it seems to me that it is likely that you wouldn't listen to the greatest scumtell in the world.

Baseless conjecture. You're just blindly pushing against her now.

Whiny, according to dictionary.com is complaining, fretful, cranky.
...
I take what you accused me of, repeated it so anyone who hadn't seen your accusations might know what I was referring to, and then refuted it. That's not complaining, that's going about refuting your argument in a logical and organized fashion. I am however cranky, but wouldn't you be too if no one is believing you?
And I can't think of something clever to say about not being fretful, but, eh, I'm not. That about sums it up.

Thankyou for that :roll Well, I think the term 'whiney' is quite appropriate, but that's besides the point. Why do you need to go to such lengths to reject the word 'whiney;?

~~~~~~~~~~~~
To describe Kab's argument against Mizzy as a piece of crap would be to run the risk of a discourse that would never again rise above the excremental.

[Mizzy]

Vollkan, I've already said that it's an obvious thought process. Scum have reasons not to read the thread, even if that is one out of one hundred scum that don't read thread, that is still more than townies who don't read thread.

Mizzy once again attacks my posts, reducing the so called fluff. Most of said fluff that she crossed out is directed at her and so she declares it to be fluff. Awesome.

unvote, vote: Mizzy.

What, no response to any of my case? My points? My retorts? Just, once again, a simple, contentless post with some bullshit in it?

What I crossed out were filler sentences that I ALREADY ADDRESSED in the previous post of mine.

[Mizzy]

I'm not sure this bit is actually fluff. The fact people changed back just reflects how your play is being viewed, which is important.

I marked it as fluff because it's an extra he threw in that didn't help his case; it hurt it. He tried to play it off like it didn't matter. It didn't need to be in there; it may help us, but to the purpose of his post, it's fluff.

Not fluff. She had voted you though. YOU AREN'T READING THE THREAD!! The stuff about her being noncommital is meaningless swiping.

Fluff because he's trying to pass a lie off as truth, and again toss in a diss. It didn't need to be in there; it may help us, but to the purpose of his post, it's fluff.

[Adel]

Mizzy once again attacks my posts, reducing the so called fluff. Most of said fluff that she crossed out is directed at her and so she declares it to be fluff. Awesome.

unvote, vote: Mizzy.

dude you are killing your own damn self. You couldn't be more suicidal if you had a handgun in your mouth, a recently emptied bottle of Southern Comport in your lap, and The Cure playing in the background.

vote: kabenon007