PIRATES v. NINJAS! Game Over!

[Thok]

I thought you cited "mysterious 3rd point" as one of your reasons for being wary of the Iammars wagon. No?

That is an extremely easy way I can reasonably claim that you are using it as a way to attack

people

ideas.

Using a mysterious, unclarified, secret point to support your stance was precisely the reason I found you suspicious. You talk about something you are keeping purposefully vague, you talk about a 3rd unmentioned possibility, you talk about assumptions that you are unwilling to make -- assumptions that you are even unwilling to disclose what they are -- and use that as a basis for your stance.

Yeah, I find that suspicious.

Gee, maybe I don't want to mention some of the possibilities because I think it helps scum to mention them. If I had mentioned my third possibility and Iammars was scum, he might have tried to use that as a way to help himself.

For the record, Iammars can't use that possibility now. Moreover, the fact that certain people can't even seem to phantom what that possibility is tells me something about their roles.
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@TSQ-you are criticizing Claus for responding to a question that you claim only has one answer. If that's truly the case, then why would Thesp bother to ask the question?

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For the record, I prefer a TSQ or Guardian wagon to a Thesp wagon. Mostly this is a matter of tone, as I think Thesp is being stubborn and dense but townish, while I feel Guardian is being manipulative/trying to pick too much at fine details and I feel TSQ is leaching onto this wagon. Guardian's willingness to hint at maybe supporting a Thespwagon is also scummy.

[mikeburnfire]

I do not hold Guardian's suspicions on me against him. I agree with almost everything he says.

I see that some people think the Iammars wagon is weakly justified, while others see it as a good day one lynch. I tend to agree with the latter, though I would like to have a few more suspects before the Day ends. To do this, I will have to sift backwards and determine if I think other wagons (like the one on Gorrad) have any foundation.

[Claus]

Claus, could you outline briefly and in one post the reason for your suspicion of Gorrad?

1- Early on Gorrad was a bit too interested in setup discussion
2- Then he get all "Ooh, these reasons are weak, but they are also strong, but I can't see anything better", on Iammar's wagon.
3- When he is called on it, he backs down from pointing at Iammars, and says he has "no leads". When I press him further, he generally waves towards both bandwagons.

[Guardian]

I thought you cited "mysterious 3rd point" as one of your reasons for being wary of the Iammars wagon. No?

That is an extremely easy way I can reasonably claim that you are using it as a way to attack

people

ideas.

Using a mysterious, unclarified, secret point to support your stance was precisely the reason I found you suspicious. You talk about something you are keeping purposefully vague, you talk about a 3rd unmentioned possibility, you talk about assumptions that you are unwilling to make -- assumptions that you are even unwilling to disclose what they are -- and use that as a basis for your stance.

Yeah, I find that suspicious.

Gee, maybe I don't want to mention some of the possibilities because I think it helps scum to mention them. If I had mentioned my third possibility and Iammars was scum, he might have tried to use that as a way to help himself.

For the record, Iammars can't use that possibility now. Moreover, the fact that certain people can't even seem to phantom what that possibility is tells me something about their roles.

I might, maybe, see what you are getting at. If so, I understand what you might mean by needing to keep it secret...

I still don't like your mystic-like air of suspicion, or the level of secrecy that envelops your posts. I almost want to reveal what I think you might be thinking, to get this out in the open.

For the record, I prefer a TSQ or Guardian wagon to a Thesp wagon. Mostly this is a matter of tone, as... I feel Guardian is being manipulative/trying to pick too much at fine details... Guardian's willingness to hint at maybe supporting a Thespwagon is also scummy.

Wait, what? Tone? I am being manipulative? How so?

Saying I would possibly support a Thesp wagon when 1) he is supporting both of the two top wagons and 2) he is claiming to see a clear connection that I don't see at and 3) when I was directly asked if I might support a Thesp wagon -- is scummy? Thok??

[Claus]

If you guys really are serious about lynching Iammars, how about trying to make him speak with some questions?

Iammars:
1- If you could day vig two people in your bandwagon, who would they be and why?
2- Are you suspicious of anyone not on your bandwagon? why?

[Thesp]

In any event, Thesp, could you provide a more detailed analysis of this Iammars-Gorrad connection?

Perhaps later.

Mostly this is a matter of tone, as I think Thesp is being stubborn and dense but townish

I think this is the first time I've ever been called "dense" in a mafia game.

Also, I don't want people to skirt responsibilities by insinuating that day one lynches need practically no standard to uphold. That's crap.

I like Thok's air of secrecy.

[Twomz]

so

anything

beyond just reading new posts won't be happening anytime soon >.<

I hypocritically accuse Twomz of being scum because of this.

Fixed >.> I need to reread my posts better, that didn't make any sense when you quoted it.

But yeah, I just got out of class, and in a little over an hour I have work til 11, then I have class again at 8 tomorrow... after that I should have time to read up better and post better.

[Mgm]

I still don't like your mystic-like air of suspicion, or the level of secrecy that envelops your posts. I almost want to reveal what I think you might be thinking, to get this out in the open.

There was nothing mysterious. Anyone with half a brain could think of at least one additional reason without it being explicitly mentioned...if they wanted to.

I don't like the Iammars wagon:
He confirmed with pirate flavor. This either implies he is a pirate or that he tries to appear like a pirate. The whole reasoning that he is ninja scum trying to look like an innocent pirate requires far too much assumptions.

Is there anything else? If not, Iammars should NOT be lynched today.

[Samruc]

Maybe the twist is: there is no twist...

One day, he's going to use it...

***

I don't see anything coming out of the Iammars wagon, and apparently Gorrad didn't either. I'm liking the Gorrad wagon though, especially after 191.

I'll second/third/whatever: "What other explanation would you have expected?"

***

If you guys really are serious about lynching Iammars, how about trying to make him speak with some questions?

Why are you talking about lynching Iammars when he isn't the biggest wagon?

[Gorrad]

His piratey confirmation. It was a weak tell, but still the biggest I'd seen in the first few pages. I'm satified with his explanation, though, so I'm back to no leads so far.

What other explanation would you have expected? "Aw, shucks, you got me"?

By the way, Iammars, are you a pirate?

Now, I might be looking into this too much, but isn't your second quote here directly contradicting the first? The fact that you asked him if he was a pirate leads me to think yes, there WERE other ways he could claim. Otherwise you wouldn't have asked him that. I saw you ask him, and thought 'Oh, he's trying to trick someone again. I'd better not screw it up.' So I FoS'd to try and help.

[Thesp]

His piratey confirmation. It was a weak tell, but still the biggest I'd seen in the first few pages. I'm satified with his explanation, though, so I'm back to no leads so far.

What other explanation would you have expected? "Aw, shucks, you got me"?

By the way, Iammars, are you a pirate?

Now, I might be looking into this too much, but isn't your second quote here directly contradicting the first? The fact that you asked him if he was a pirate leads me to think yes, there WERE other ways he could claim. Otherwise you wouldn't have asked him that. I saw you ask him, and thought 'Oh, he's trying to trick someone again. I'd better not screw it up.' So I FoS'd to try and help.

So you weren't really suspicious of him in the first place, is this what you're saying? (Please correct me if I'm wrong here.)

[Gorrad]

I wasn't very suspicious, no. I understood were people were coming from, but the basis of the wagon was so weak that I figured it had to be a trap I would be interrupting again by pointing out. I never intended to vote for him.

[Skruffs]

Postulation:
Due to the subconcious prototypes of both Pirates and Ninjas, the only way someone could actually say any 'flavorish' type of greetings, for a first post, would be to say "Yarr" or "Arr" or "Shiver me timbers, rumbydumbledoo", etc...

Ninjas don't make ANY noise, ever, so there's no real way to start a game off by saying something along those lines.

Thesp is giving the taste you get in your mouth when you bite into a piece of bread and then realize it's fuzzy.

Also: Fonz's post at the top of page 7 smells to me like someone tryign to communicate with their scum buddies.

[Erg0]

I agree that he hasn't been abused by the mod - that was my point in the first place. Once you eliminate that possibility, the alternative theory would be that he made what seems to me like an unreasonably large leap of logic and tried to clear himself with a wild guess at flavour during the confirmation stage. I don't subscribe to this theory.

Consider this hypothetical thought process:

I am in a game called pirates v. ninjas.
-->In this game, pirates oppose ninjas.
I am ninja scum
There is a town, and I as scum oppose them.
-->Pirates are town.

You consider that to be an unreasonably large leap of logic?

In the context of this game, yes it is. It's common knowledge that Stoofer's games always have a twist, Mars would have to be a raging moron to make such a baseless assumption.

I don't see how "Stoofer's games have a twist" invalidates the hypothetical thought process. At all.

I'd like to hear a response to this.

Is this really so difficult to understand? Stoofer's reputation as a mod who likes to do things that are a bit "different" is likely to make players more cautious about drawing quick assumptions regarding flavour early in the game. If we discard the theory that Mars was misled by his PM (which I believe that we already have) then the alternative theory is, as Guardian said, that he got his Ninja PM and immediately concluded that pirates must be the town, hence he tried to pass himself off as a pirate. Given Stoofer's style, it would be obvious to almost anyone (certainly to an experienced player like Mars) that this would not be a safe assumption to make before the first night scene has even been posted. Basically, your theory relies on Mars making an assumption that he would have to be an idiot to make.

Let me put it this way: if you'd received a PM saying "you are a ninja", would

you

immediately assume that the pirates were the good guys? Even if you made that assumption, would you stake your life in the game on it by playing the role in your confirmation post? I doubt you could truthfully answer yes to both of those questions, so your case rests on the assumption that Mars is much,

much

dumber than you.

I seriously don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. I think you're both far too in love with your theory to wrap your head around the basic problem with your assumptions.

[Skruffs]

Let me put it this way: if you'd received a PM saying "you are a ninja", would

you

immediately assume that the pirates were the good guys? Even if you made that assumption, would you stake your life in the game on it by playing the role in your confirmation post? I doubt you could truthfully answer yes to both of those questions, so your case rests on the assumption that Mars is much,

much

dumber than you.

So are you "confirming" that the ninjas are bad guys?

[Erg0]

Don't make me hurt you.

[Thesp]

Is this really so difficult to understand? Stoofer's reputation as a mod who likes to do things that are a bit "different" is likely to make players more cautious about drawing quick assumptions regarding flavour early in the game. If we discard the theory that Mars was misled by his PM (which I believe that we already have) then the alternative theory is, as Guardian said, that he got his Ninja PM and immediately concluded that pirates must be the town, hence he tried to pass himself off as a pirate. Given Stoofer's style, it would be obvious to almost anyone (certainly to an experienced player like Mars) that this would not be a safe assumption to make before the first night scene has even been posted. Basically, your theory relies on Mars making an assumption that he would have to be an idiot to make.

Let me put it this way: if you'd received a PM saying "you are a ninja", would

you

immediately assume that the pirates were the good guys? Even if you made that assumption, would you stake your life in the game on it by playing the role in your confirmation post? I doubt you could truthfully answer yes to both of those questions, so your case rests on the assumption that Mars is much,

much

dumber than you.

I seriously don't know why this is so difficult to grasp. I think you're both far too in love with your theory to wrap your head around the basic problem with your assumptions.

I disagree with so, so many of the assumptions you are making here.

I wasn't very suspicious, no. I understood were people were coming from, but the basis of the wagon was so weak that I figured it had to be a trap I would be interrupting again by pointing out. I never intended to vote for him.

I don't believe this for a moment. I hope a vig has good sense and kills you dead tonight.

[Erg0]

I'd argue that my theory is based on far fewer and simpler assumptions than yours.

[Erg0]

I'll try a hypothetical: if you were in the position that you believe Mars to be in, would you have done the same thing that you believe he did? Why or why not?

This is for both Thesp and Guardian.

[Thesp]

I'd argue that my theory is based on far fewer and simpler assumptions than yours.

I'd argue you're wrong. So there.

I'll try a hypothetical: if you were in the position that you believe Mars to be in, would you have done the same thing that you believe he did? Why or why not?

I don't know, nor can I know.

[Erg0]

Is that because you don't know his situation, or because you don't know how you'd behave in his place?

[Thesp]

Is that because you don't know his situation, or because you don't know how you'd behave in his place?

The latter. (The former is presumed in the question, is it not?)

[Erg0]

It is, but I wasn't sure whether you were disputing the assumption.

Now I'm wondering how, if you don't know how you'd behave in the situation you posit, you can reasonably draw a conclusion on Mars' situation based on his behaviour. Do you feel that you know him so well that you're able to draw such a conclusion based on a single word?

[Thestatusquo]

1) Thok, I was clearly responding to gorrad, who I had FOSed in my previous post, and not clause. Are you reading my posts at all?

2) I'm leaching off of a day 1 page 9 pressure wagon which is not even halfway to lynch? Thats a good one, thok.

[Iammars]

If I had to daykill anyone here, it would be Thesp. Seriously man, you're assuming that I assumed something about the setup in a Stoofer game? I joined this game just to be surprised by what Stoofer comes up with. Besides, I learned to stop outguessing the mod with no information when I became a mod myself.

And seriously, what were you expecting me to say? I don't see how my answer shouldn't sway Gorrad.

Also, it's not my fault I never heard about my character before, and Wikipedia sure isn't helping me.