Mini 546: House Mafia - Game Over

[armlx]

cross what line? why are you at -1? why can't you keep your story straight?

Cross the line between scummy actions getting you lynched and them simply garnering responses. I'm at -1 because all the scummy people are on your team (coincidence). My story has been straight. Early game I acted moderately scummy to draw responses, responded with a fairly detailed analysis based on my observations and some gut feelings on intangible things I had observed. Basically, I did everything you said you did, except when you did it the actions were legitimately scummy (able to start harmful wagons past the early/random phase) and you didn't follow them up with any sort of logical analysis.

[Erg0]

Something to consider is that Erg0 and Pooky would probably be the hardest to nail as scum.

This seems perjorative to me. I'm not sure about Pooky, but historically I'm just hard to lynch, period.

[Adel]

An important question I would really really like for all player to answer as soon as possible:

Did you:
a. Remember
b. Forget
c. Never know

that

4) The bad doctors cannot kill you. This is the Princeton-Plainsboro Teaching Hospital, not the Hezbollah recruitment office.

Which is it? A? B? or C?

I remembered that after reading TG's post about the kill. It wasn't at the front of my mind prior to that.

thanks for responding. My suspicion is that he was faking ignorance, but if you missed it than it id probably a red herring.

[Adel]

Something to consider is that Erg0 and Pooky would probably be the hardest to nail as scum.

This seems perjorative to me. I'm not sure about Pooky, but historically I'm just hard to lynch, period.

I'm not disagreeing with you. There seems to be this myth that scum are illogical.

Inconsistant

, perhaps, but the way I see it individual

players

areeither logical or illogical in their thoughts and/or postings. I'm ever weary of logically-challenged & rather defenseless townies getting lynched. For the couple of pages I've began to wonder if Jive Machine falls into the later category. I am certain that armix does not.

[Dean Harper]

sorry guys, been away, srry i didnt post about it in this game, got my prod, trying to catch up.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I like how the rest of my team seems to be missing in action.

Ok, who do you guys want to lynch.

I have a gut feeling about Volkan, I could be uttterly utterly utterly wrong.

Here's how I approach the game right now, players are not going to be inconsistent due to their alignment, this game has the feel of a 3:7 nightless so there's no real trickery to use.

Volky has no reason to detract from his normal playing style, this could be easily consistent with his normal playing style, but that's the thing, the way he jumps on JiveMachine feels in a way like he's a wolf jumping on this poor sheep that is just geniunely confused and screwed up.

The best play for a mafia in a situation often is to attack the weakest players that are not on their team, sometimes there's no reason not to attack the weakest players even if they are on your team because of how easy it is to get them to get lynched, the important thing here being that to win the mafia does not have to preserve a numbers adv, in this game if the mafia survive to the end that is fine, one mafia getting to the final 3 is a win.

another key is that there is no nightkill and there is no cop investigation(as far as we know) so a mafia member who makes himself look very protown by going for another mafia member is not going to have to answer questions like "well why haven't they nightkilled you yet" or deal with "I investigated you, you're scum, die".

Basically I think Vollkan's actions right b4 he pushes jive machine near that noose(or what he thought was lynch) feel somewhat lackluster to me, it doesn't feel like he is looking for scum, it feels like he is looking for an easy lynch.

[vollkan]

Results of my reread:

{For the uninitiated, my % ranking system has every person starting at 50%. Scummy behaviour pushes it up; town-tells push it down. I am very skeptical of "town tells" so it will be difficult for people to move down}

Erg0

- Hardly anything meaningful; with a lot of early randomness and set-up speculation. His only serious action is voting Dean over Dean's weird pressure thing. This nets a

60%

.

Pooky

- As with Erg0, Pooky has made no meaningful contribution. Worse still, Pooky has been making a pretty obvious effort to escalate suspicion (without making good arguments), particularly against shafted. Pooky earns a

70%

Dean

- The first thing notable here is him calling the random wagon on TG a pressure wagon to get TG talking. Ironic given Dean's contribution to that point was a string of garbage. Moreover, voting purely "to pressure" is acceptable, providing there is actually something to pressure about (which there wasn't). Also, Dean was the first to vote, so it hardly makes sense for him to say that his vote was to "help" apply pressure. A single vote doesn't "help" and a single vote does not apply pressure. And now he's vanished. Dean gets a

75%

TG

- He seems to be making a good effort in scum-hunting and has proper reasoning as well. TG gets a

50%

(I don't suspect him, but I have seen nothing which affirms the likelihood of him being town - The purpose for this bracketed explanation is that I've been attacked for giving people who I have no problems with 50% before)

armlx

- Justifies his reads with "instinct" which rubs me the wrong way - you can't argue against "instinct". He throws his vote around and doesn't give clear explanations either (for Jive, he just attacked the "=D" response, and for shaft.ed he gave nothing).

70%

So my list is:-

Dean - 75%
Pooky - 70%
armlx - 70%
Erg0 - 60%
TG - 50%

Volky has no reason to detract from his normal playing style, this could be easily consistent with his normal playing style, but that's the thing, the way he jumps on JiveMachine feels in a way like he's a wolf jumping on this poor sheep that is just geniunely confused and screwed up.

I've been told my playstyle is aggressive before. As far as Jive goes, I think my attack on him was perfectly justified: He was flip-flopping about whether he was trying to lynch scum or stay alive. His behaviour might well be the result of genuine confusion, but I don't know what is going on inside his head, so I can only judge him based upon what I see (which was scummy behaviour and dreadful justification)

Basically I think Vollkan's actions right b4 he pushes jive machine near that noose(or what he thought was lynch) feel somewhat lackluster to me, it doesn't feel like he is looking for scum, it feels like he is looking for an easy lynch.

Could you elaborate on this? I'd like to discuss this in more detail, but "lackluster" is difficult to address.

[Adel]

vollkan: meta dean and get back to us with the results and a corrected % figure, if you don't mind.

[vollkan]

I reviewed Dean in a few games and his play is pretty dreadful across the board.

Hmm, I really hate giving people a free pass for this sort of thing - but seeing as a significant proportion of this can probably be attributed to his own playstyle, I lower Dean to

65%

.

I will be keeping a close eye on his replacement, nonetheless.

[Adel]

Erg0 - what kind of a meta read do you have on Jive Machine?

[armlx]

On the TG forgetting thing: Honestly, I'm confused about where he forgot about it. I remembered about it b/c pre-game I did a lot of thought about how best to break the nightless aspect, including looking back at no-exit mafia by Yaw (same basic idea or less, 12 players).

[TrustGossip]

OK I got a re-skim in.

Overall I would rank the five players from scummy to townie as:
1) armlx
1) Pooky
3) Erg0
4) Dean
5) TG

armlx: Posted the most content (wordwise) of his team outside of maybe TG. But had a few minor tells early in the day. Like reluctance to vote someone to 3 but happy to jump on as a second vote. Then proceeded to make a pretty firm declaration of people's alignments before there was really any discernable evidence to move on. Didn't really explain this too well to vollkan. Also joined in with Pooky in fanning the flames while I was first in line to be lynched.

Pooky: I rank him at the top with armlx in level of scuminess but for different reasons. Has posted very little content to be caught up on, so unsurprisingly no glaring issues with his posts. He has significantly fanned the flames against me and other players without adding anything to the argument. Also debated with Vollkan about actually needing a reason to lynch someone. This is crazy in my mind.

Erg0: Erg0 and Dean both have hardly anything in the way of posting. I only rank Erg0 above Dean because Erg0 was quite active in the early game but seemed to take a back seat once strong bandwagons became apparent. To me this is scummier than just lurking the whole game as Dean did.

Dean: Chronic lurker. Very little content to go on. Would vie for a replacement before a lynch.

TG: One of the two actual contributors of team L-Unit. Has put his opinions on the line and backed them up much better than his other teamates. Seems to actually be scum hunting instead of going for the path of least resistance.

All tolled I'd be happy today with either a Pooky or armlx lynch. I'd like to let vollkan weigh in before I register a vote for armlx. Also want to note that in a couple hours I'll be away from the internets until likely Monday so I'm sorry if this holds the game up any.

Good freaking posting If I was on your team, I would also definitely wait until Dean was replaced. Nice catch on Erg0. Even though I have voiced my opinions on Dean, there have been much better targets and Erg0 has hardly weighed in upon that matter.

[TrustGossip]

Faking the forgetting of a changed game mechanic is a little too high level of a gambit for me personally.

To Pooky: By nightless you mean the scum have no nightkill, correct? Also, I can see your reasonings for vollkan as I've also noticed a significant departure from his usual play, but I have many more issues with Jive and curious at the moment.

Speaking of which,

Vote: curiouskarmadog

I would like you to tell me how you play based on hunches, and also why you felt the need to put words in Jive's mouth before putting him at L-2 prior to the final diagnostic.

Same with armix. Why did you feel the need to put Jive at L-1?

[vollkan]

Also, I can see your reasonings for vollkan as I've also noticed a significant departure from his usual play,

Could you elaborate on this please?

[TrustGossip]

I am saying that I would think you'd like to draw more information out of Jive before voting him and that it seemed unusual to me that you would vote without asking for discussion of the matter from other players.

If this meta read of you is inaccurate please correct me.

It also means I have a healthy suspicion of you because you always seem to play pro-town no matter the alignment, and the fact that you WEREN'T one of primary contributor of good discussion worried me.

Basically I'm saying that I am disappointed :/

Sorry.

[curiouskarmadog]

Faking the forgetting of a changed game mechanic is a little too high level of a gambit for me personally.

To Pooky: By nightless you mean the scum have no nightkill, correct? Also, I can see your reasonings for vollkan as I've also noticed a significant departure from his usual play, but I have many more issues with Jive and curious at the moment.

Speaking of which,

Vote: curiouskarmadog

I would like you to tell me how you play based on hunches, and also why you felt the need to put words in Jive's mouth before putting him at L-2 prior to the final diagnostic.

Same with armix. Why did you feel the need to put Jive at L-1?

please quote where I put words in anyone's mouth.

[vollkan]

I am saying that I would think you'd like to draw more information out of Jive before voting him and that it seemed unusual to me that you would vote without asking for discussion of the matter from other players.

If this meta read of you is inaccurate please correct me.

It also means I have a healthy suspicion of you because you always seem to play pro-town no matter the alignment, and the fact that you WEREN'T one of primary contributor of good discussion worried me.

Basically I'm saying that I am disappointed :/

Sorry.

I questioned Jive. He didn't answer me and then made a swipe at CKD. Then Jive gave a dismal explanation for his behaviour which he contradicted. Thus, I voted him. I then continued discussing with him until he went all defeatist and surrendered.

I voted because his behaviour was scummy. I don't know why you think that I should have gotten more out of him before voting - voting somebody doesn't end the information-gathering process. I also don't see why I should ask for the opinion of other people before voting. I was third on the wagon and had a good reason for voting (direct contradiction). Obviously, I was prepared to discuss it with other people, but I don't know why that should necessarily come prior to voting

If you are basing this on a meta of me, I suggest you read over my play a bit more.

[TrustGossip]

so I am scummy because I INFORMED YOU that my vote was based on a hunch? or am I scummy because at the moment I HAVE NOT jumped on the current leaders (or BWs) of those "acting scummy"?

You state the previous not as questions to Jive, but not as any kind of provable statement on Jive's intentions. So what are they?

I think they are words that are put in other people's mouths.

Otherwise there's no real reason to say such things when the person in question is slowly dying down and losing interest and becomes admissive of his own fate and blah blah blah.

[armlx]

Jive refused to give reasonable answers to any questions before and had shown what IMO is a major scum tell. Very worth of L-1ing.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Volks, define "meaningful contribution"

[vollkan]

Having, relative to other players, a reasonable number of posts which make some independent effort at scumhunting.

You've made 24 posts in this game and only one (the post where you question me) shows any real depth of reasoning.

I can't say whether your other post actually

are

pointless. It might all just be chaotic behaviour. However, I don't see you asking questions or giving reasoning (you argued with me on this very point) and that is something which will always pull my suspicion.

[curiouskarmadog]

so I am scummy because I INFORMED YOU that my vote was based on a hunch? or am I scummy because at the moment I HAVE NOT jumped on the current leaders (or BWs) of those "acting scummy"?

You state the previous not as questions to Jive, but not as any kind of provable statement on Jive's intentions. So what are they?

I think they are words that are put in other people's mouths.

Otherwise there's no real reason to say such things when the person in question is slowly dying down and losing interest and becomes admissive of his own fate and blah blah blah.

that is a stretch..he said I was scummy for voting on a hunch...I wanted to know why...both were in the form of a question, because I was wanted information from him which is how we form a request (in a question)...noting your bull shit here.

[TrustGossip]

so I am scummy because I INFORMED YOU that my vote was based on a hunch? or am I scummy because at the moment I HAVE NOT jumped on the current leaders (or BWs) of those "acting scummy"?

You state the previous not as questions to Jive, but not as any kind of provable statement on Jive's intentions. So what are they?

I think they are words that are put in other people's mouths.

Otherwise there's no real reason to say such things when the person in question is slowly dying down and losing interest and becomes admissive of his own fate and blah blah blah.

that is a stretch..he said I was scummy for voting on a hunch...I wanted to know why...both were in the form of a question, because I was wanted information from him which is how we form a request (in a question)...noting your bull shit here.

Just because you feel you've toppled one of my points does not defeat the entire argument. That would be a fallacy and I know you'd never

intentionally

strawman, because that would just be

scummy

now wouldn't it?

It still stands that your hunch-based voting was completely irrelevant and unhelpful. Your only vote of any merit was the one on Jive Machine, and that was only after three other people had already leveled good arguments and voted him already. You cannot escape inquisition by dismissing everything I say as bullshit.

<3

[curiouskarmadog]

so then by saying I put words in Jive's mouth was bull shit? And you already think I am scummy because you have your vote on me, so no reason imply that you think I am scummy....

Why am a scummy exactly? Because I voted on a hunch? How do you know I voted on a hunch, oh yeah, I told you. Scummy indeed.

[curiouskarmadog]

hey vollkan, does TG's bullshit change his % in your eyes?