Mini #553: Over!

[Khelvaster]

Vote: Ting

He is a player in a game I mod.

[Khelvaster]

12/12 people in the fellowship in this mini. 9 people in the real fellowship. 3-scum game is appropriate for 12 players.

I deduce that a mass nameclaim would work here. I don't want to know everyone's role--just what name they are. I believe we'll end up screwing the Nazgul up, unless there are some unorthodox names.

Speaking of which...
If you were given a name of someone who was not Frodo, Samwise (Sam), Pippin, Merry, Aragorn, Boromir, Gandalf, Legolas, or Gimli, please speak up. I don't want you to even claim your name. I just want you to say that you aren't one of these nine.

[Khelvaster]

If there are exactly 3 people who aren't part of the fellowship, then I believe the 3 who aren't will need to claim their names. Not their roles, mind you, but their names.

If there are less than 3 people, someone has to be lying. A mass nameclaim will occur.

If there are more than 3 people, then nothing bad comes from this. I seriously doubt the mafia can tell whether you are a power role and, if so, whether it's important to kill you or not just based upon the fact that you are or aren't in the fellowship.

[Khelvaster]

care to be more explicit, Matt?

[Khelvaster]

Second Official Vote Count

Votes required:

7 to lynch

2, Matt_s

- RangeroftheNorth, destructor

1, Spindax

- Coolbot

1, crazy_vlad

- Matt_S

1, eljcko

- massive

1, Zycronium

- eljcko

Not Voting:

6,

Zyrconium, crazy_vlad, Spindax, GSGold, thing =), Khelvaster

Wow...that was wierd. So, what should I do? I guess

Unvote, un: FoS all

, since all I was talking about was nameclaiming.

[Khelvaster]

Oh, and I'm glad there wasn't anything like "Sauron mafia has to kill Frodo to win; Frodo must survive for 4 days to get the ring to mount doom" kind of stuff.

[Khelvaster]

I've read again all the posts. Khelvaster. your mass claim, in the first posts, in the first day, may have been well intended, but is has something fishy for me...
as there is no vote in present for you, and as I consider that we have to clarify that post - and to get to a clear conclusion whether you are or not oa bad guy, I'll give you my vote. it's not a final vote, it is an attention mark. that's all.

vote Khelvaster

I was hoping to trap the mod, if he ended up giving 9 fellowships and 3 non-fellowships. I've seen stuff like this before. 9+3=12, the number of people in our game. 9 townie+3 scum tends to be balanced. If we happened to have a modslip, and he gave Saruman, Witch-King, Sauron or something like that along with the full fellowship, I would have gotten us a quickwin.

[Khelvaster]

If it was just the mass claim, maybe i could buy letting him go. But later he wanted to know if there were three people outside the fellowship. That's appears to be a clear case of role fishing to me. And it's not like there are a richness of leads right now. Unless someone has a better idea, Khel's our best option for a wagon right now.

What are you talking about? I just explained why I wanted three people outside the fellowship in my previous post: This would almost certainly point to a 9-3 division of scum-town.

CoolBot, you've been ignoring everything I said so that you could start a bandwagon on me.

Vote: Coolbot

[Khelvaster]

EBWODP:

I'd like for y'all to say how exactly it's fishy. I think it's pretty clear that we won't have 9 power roles, so asking for whether people are in the fellowship or not is perfectly legitimate.

[Khelvaster]

I think it's pretty clear that we won't have 9 power roles, so asking for whether people are in the fellowship or not is perfectly legitimate.

You seem pretty focused on finding out who's fellowship. You're associating the fellowship with power roles, which makes me look at your name claim with more skepticism. You've confused me from the beginning, to the point I thought you couldn't be scum. Now I don't see how I was so certain.

NO NO NO!

I am associating the fellowship with not being scum, if all 9 fellowship members are present. All I had needed you to say was that you were town and not in the fellowship, and I would have abandoned my entire argument. It would have confirmed you as town too, since scum wouldn't know this.

[Khelvaster]

For the last time, we didn't know that there were some townies outside of the fellowship. I thought the mod might have slipped up, seeing as this was a flavored game in a mini normal board anyway. Besides, one person saying "I am townie, but I'm not in the Fellowship" would have been enough to make me stop asking for a mass nameclaim.

However, this wasn't the case. There was "this is a bad idea, but I can't tell you why," but nothing more concrete than that.

I can reference you to mini theme 483, Fire Emblem Mafia, in which I advocated a claim of this nature early in d1, though for a slightly different reason.

[Khelvaster]

As of this post Vote Count!

Votes required:

7 to lynch

3, Matt_s

-

RangeroftheNorth, massive, Khelvaster

2, Khelvaster

-

crazy_vlad, Coolbot,

1, Destructor

-

ting =)

1, Ting =)

-

eljcko

Not Voting:

5, Zyrconium, Spindax, destructor, GSGold, Matt_S

I'm voting because I want to. I don't get why anyone would suggest a name claim on day 1, but I'd think it would probably benefit the town more. And I haven't "constantly apologized", I've expressed my dislike for the situation. I'm voting for someone whose motives confuse me. If you have a problem with that, that's fine. But your problem is that nobody else has done anything to get as much attention, and you're saying I'm fishy for attacking Khelvaster for his actions. But if it makes you happy I'll target someone else.

FoS eljcko

. Khelvaster says that if people weren't Fellowship, they just had to tell everyone. Yet he says there aren't 9 power roles, and says that because of that there's nothing wrong with asking if people are in the fellowship or not. The only thing I can guess is that he thinks names are connected with power roles. So in other words, "nonfellowship people, a.k.a. vanilla townies, come forward so we don't accidentally night kill you".

Of course he says this isn't what he meant, but the more I read his posts the less I believe him. I don't believe you either, eljcko. You seem to think that my vote is just to conform. It's not. I don't really know what else I can say that hasn't been said. Oh, except this: you said Khelvaster was "very suspicious" in your first post, yet you now start defending him once more people are looking at him. Realize this: if Khelvaster comes up scum you're my next vote.

You are incredibly wrong, Matt. What I'm saying is that being in the fellowship won't affect whether you are a power role or not. Thus, I doubt there are 9 powerroles. You've been misinterpreting me throughout the whole game, and I'm sick of it. If I saw exactly three people say they weren't in the fellowship, we would win because the 9 townies were in the fellowship.

I've had it with your putting words into my mouth.

Vote: Matt

[Khelvaster]

Moving off of the lurky lynch, he says "the more I think about it, the more likely it is he's town, but since you all are voting for him, why not?"

The logic that Matt_S seems to be missing seems pretty obvious to me:

1. I'm Fellowship.
2. If I'm Fellowship, there are probably other Fellowship roles out there.
3. If there are other Fellowship roles out there, there is a possibility that all nine are out there.
4. If there are nine Fellowship roles, they are the town.

That's not even hard to follow. Khelvaster readjusted his attacking points, but that is the logic flow of it, in a nutshell.

This is indeed my logic flow. I felt it was so blatantly obvious that I didn't need to list it. Thanks for making it a little more apparent.

I think Matt_S got lucky, in that CoolBot came out as a non-Fellowship-er before he had to make a definitive stand. I think vanilla townie is the safest fake claim a scum can make. I think he is bandwagoning despite admitting that he thinks the actions of Khelvaster are more likely those of a townie. Is this the part where I type DIE SCUM DIE?

Vanilla townie is also the most common claim a non-scum can make. That neither proves nor disproves guilt. The bandwagonning is what worries me the most, and what provoked me to vote Matt.

Good reasoning except for post 79 by me:

Post 75(which has a typo, I said would when I meant wouldn't >.>)

Other than my post there I can't prove one way or the other. But let me ask you this: Where would we be if I came out immediately after Khelvaster's post and said I didn't have a name?

I would have asked for one person who was in the fellowship and was vanilla to claim their exact name. I wouldn't have claimed vanilla town myself, as that would have seemed a bit too manipulative. Better to have another townie verify that what I was saying was true. Anyway, given one pro-town outside the fellowship and one vanilla inside the fellowship, I would have given up the massclaim. The town would have gained one confirmed vanilla townie and one confirmed pro-town.

As I've said before, the reason I didn't do this was I wanted to see how people would react, thinking the people for the claim would be scum.
If I had said I had no name, then the scum wouldn't have to claim and potentially get caught lying.

And it obviously follows that saying "this is a bad idea, but I can't say why" is not going to influence reactions in any way...

As for the logic that you say is easy to follow, try looking from my perspective:

1. I'm a townsman with no name and no powers

That works as a valid assumption for this logical process

2. Other people without powers are townsmen without names
3. If someone has a name, they aren't vanilla, a.k.a. power roles or possibly lying scum.

Now, where might I ask did you figure this out? A Lord of the Rings mafia probably has all named characters. Merry might be town, but he is still Merry Brandybuck.

4. Everyone who asks for a name claim has a name or is scum.

This only works if everyone accepts 2 and 3. If you accept 2 and 3 as true, but not everyone does, then this falls apart. Furthermore, even if 4 is true, I still could be named and scum, or named and not scum. I don't have to be a nameless scum.

Your logic fails miserably. Only one assumption is any good, and none of your conclusion is.

It's pretty much the same as Khelvaster's logic, just using what I thought instead. Yeah, it was shown to be false, but so was Khelvaster's logic.

If you had posted the logic sooner, it would have been thrown in the trash. It's completely idiotic.

It doesn't change the fact that at the time there was no reason to think either was false.

Yes, there was. Maybe Merry and Pippin are town. Maybe Aragorn is the doc, Gandalf is the cop, and everyone else is town. Maybe Merry and Pippin are a masonpair, along with Frodo and Sam, and everyone else is town.

I still think Khelvaster's assumption that we could end the game in 3 days without danger was suspicious, since I assume that a mod would know that would be no fun for either side.

[quote="Khelvaster]I was hoping to trap the mod, if he ended up giving 9 fellowships and 3 non-fellowships.[/quote]

Mods mess up occasionally. If he did, we'd get a nice, easy win.

And lurky lynch? I don't remember suggesting a lynch on him. I said vote for him, as in force him not to lurk.

Lynch all lurkers is a great scumtell. Voting people without wanting to lynch them just doesn't happen. Have mods prod lurkers, don't vote them.

You are incredibly wrong, Matt. What I'm saying is that being in the fellowship won't affect whether you are a power role or not. Thus, I doubt there are 9 powerroles. You've been misinterpreting me throughout the whole game, and I'm sick of it. If I saw exactly three people say they weren't in the fellowship, we would win because the 9 townies were in the fellowship.

I've had it with your putting words into my mouth. Vote: Matt

What you say is open to interpretation. It's easy to say after the fact that you meant something else. I don't like it when people think I'm trying to put words in their mouth, but I hate it when people act like they wouldn't do the same when on the attack.[/quote]

Well, I don't do this unless I am some anti-town role. When I'm town attacking people, I avoid doing things to get them lynched unfairly. I admit I'm wrong when I misinterpret people. You don't seem to be doing either of these things much.

So think about this: What would you do if I suggested a mass name claim when you didn't even have a name? What if I got hell for suggesting it? Would you just assume I had the town's best interests in mind?

I would post and say that I didn't have a name and that the mod obviously didn't mess the setup up. I would assume you had the town's best interests in mind. If you got hell for suggesting it from three or two players, I would put them high on my scumdar. If most of the town gave you hell, I'd assume it was was a newbie mistake on your part, unless you were flying with blatant disregard towards logic.

Since we know there are townies that weren't in the fellowship, voting someone who claims to not be in the fellowship wouldn't be a guaranteed win.

Now we know. Before we knew, if there were only three people outside the fellowship, chances would be high the mod screwed up and we'd win.

Rather than give someone the benefit of the doubt, I chose to press them on it. Are you saying you wouldn't do the same? Up until now I didn't see a satisfactory explanation. Still though, there's no way for you to prove that's what you were thinking, the same way I can't prove what I was thinking.

Giving me the benefit of the doubt isn't necessary to follow logic. I just disproved your logic--it has hardly any basis in reality. You've been single-mindedly blasting me the entire game. You haven't helped the town at all.

You can see my response to your whole post. I strongly feel you are scum, and would love to see you lynched today.

[Khelvaster]

Wow...I'm sorry for such a monster post.

[Khelvaster]

<3 Ting for the shared Lord of the Rings love. It's a shame the book butchered the only two quotes I memorized. It's like memorizin

You cannot pass. I am a servent of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Arnor. You cannot pass. Dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the shadows. You cannot pass.

The movie made this cool with graphics, but took out a couple of words from this.

Where now the horse and the rider?
Where is the Horn that was blowing?
where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
the days have gone down in the west behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
or behold the flowing years from the sea returning?

After ...blowing, they skip to ...they have passed, then the end after "shadow."


Bah, back to the game...All this Lord of the Rings stuff got me thinking about Ting.

I am getting incredibly powerful pro-town vibes from Ting. Ting is playing quite unagressively. There has been my bandwagon, and now there is Matt's bandwagon. He has gone out of his way not to hop these bandwagons. If he were scum, he could jump on without much effort.

[Khelvaster]

I lol at that.

[Khelvaster]

Guys, don't hassle Imat needlessly. Let him give his side of the story before asking him things.

[Khelvaster]

ting: Do you believe that, in the original configuration of the town, there were only Fellowship Named Roles and Unnamed Roles?

I don't think I'm quite up to skill to play a game with Talitha yet.

The mod said this wasn't the case.

[Khelvaster]

The problem with Matt is that he was going out of his way to avoid voting me, while still trying to get me lynched. This is a massive scumtell.

[Khelvaster]

Avoiding voting for someone is one thing. Defending someone is another. If all he did was just not vote for you while attacking you, I could buy the Matt wagon. But defend you and attack you? That's completely different from scum attacking someone to bring about their lynch while just calling them suspicous or FOSing.

And I still maintain that his first few posts scream town. I can't see his posts coming from an unnamed scum.

Going out of your from voting someone while trying to get them lynched is an incredibly scummy thing.

[Khelvaster]

I agree that going, 'but xxxx is scummy because of yyyyy. You make me suspicious, FOS: xxxxx' is a scummy thing to do. Trying to get someone lynched without actually being on the wagon.

What Matt did, was, 'xxxxx is scummy because of yyyyyy. But then, why did xxxxx do zzzzzz? Scum wouldn't do that... I need to think a bit.' Which I think is not scummy enough to raise a vote for.

Scum wouldn't do that, he says, but then he went and wanted me to be lynched. That's the prbolem.

[Khelvaster]

Khelvaster: What made you mention Nazgul in post 8 of this game? Was there some flavour text indicating this that has since been removed by the mod? Or did you just assume that the scum would be the Nazgul?

It was mostly an assumption. I have quite a bit of knowledge of The Lord of the Rings, and I figured that the 2 Nazgul+Sauron would be the most obvious scum. Second choice was Sauron/Saruman/Witch-King of Angmar (Leader of the Nazgul--his real name escapes me.) Saruman would be a godfather in this scenario, while witch-king would be a roleblocker.

Yeah, I've thought of making a LoTR theme game. I don't have enough games modded yet though. I'll probably go for a Silmarillion game once I mod a large normal game.


Anyway, there's my explanation. I love this poem from LoTR enough to commit it to memory...

Where now the horse and the rider?
Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the corn growing?
They have passed like rain on a mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead fire burning?
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

[Khelvaster]

Mod:

In light of the "unthemeing", what would happen if we went ahead with a mass name-claim?

You would find that some people are unable to claim a name, as stated before.

I cannot believe the mod here. Guys, what would you say to a mass nameclaim of former names?

I strongly feel that this could still be fruitful. Listen--going around, starting with me even if you want, and claiming names, but NOT roles, still might tell us--we have no clue whether the mod was being truthful or not. A name claim, should it break the game, would not be something the mod would admit to. Names might include non-fellowships, such as Theoden, Faramir, or other characters. The main thing to note is that the mafia might have been given "evil" names and thus be forced to either claim names and hope they aren't taken or claim nameless. Even if they did end up making safe nameclaims, we wouldn't be worse off, as the mod (and me) can confirm, there are normal, named townies.

[Khelvaster]

@Khel.
A name claim might be good. But with all the confusion and with all the talk of non-fellowship names, it'd be easy for scum to just fake claim a non-fellowship name. It might clear some things up, like the actions of coolbot, but it might also muddy the waters.

Yeah, but there is also named non-fellowship. If I see someone claim Erkenbrant or Arwen, that's so obscure it was most likely a scum making it up. If a scum tries something like Tom Bombadil, we might actually have someone who was named Tom Bombadil, who will counterclaim.

[Khelvaster]

I was against a name claim because it would screw our power roles over. Of course when I tell you this, you don't believe me. Read my first post, I say it will out the power roles. Most had some apprehensions, not all of us are named, so I am nervous that our power roles might get killed. Do you want the power roles killed? (<-- Rhetorical, don't answer.) The reason I am against the claim is because not all of us are named. I might as well claim here. I am a member of the fellowship alligned with the town. I have my vote and win when all threats are gone. I have a feeling this won't work because if someone with a name claims, then 3 vanillas claim, then a power role just got potentially spotted.

Wow...you seem to be more scummy than you have before with this post. Nameclaiming wouldn't out power roles.

Furthermore, you just said you are a member of the fellowship and you are a vanilla townie. You haven't gone and said *which* member of the fellowship you were. This is

exactly

what I was expecting a scum to do and why I advocated nameclaiming in the firstplace.

Vote: Eljcko

[Khelvaster]

I was against a name claim because it would screw our power roles over. Of course when I tell you this, you don't believe me. Read my first post, I say it will out the power roles. Most had some apprehensions, not all of us are named, so I am nervous that our power roles might get killed. Do you want the power roles killed? (<-- Rhetorical, don't answer.) The reason I am against the claim is because not all of us are named. I might as well claim here. I am a member of the fellowship alligned with the town. I have my vote and win when all threats are gone. I have a feeling this won't work because if someone with a name claims, then 3 vanillas claim, then a power role just got potentially spotted.

Wow...you seem to be more scummy than you have before with this post. Nameclaiming wouldn't out power roles.

Furthermore, you just said you are a member of the fellowship and you are a vanilla townie. You haven't gone and said *which* member of the fellowship you were. This is

exactly

what I was expecting a scum to do and why I advocated nameclaiming in the firstplace.

Vote: Eljcko

I am not named. I am a vanilla generic fellowship member. I thought it would out the power roles because I have no name and that possibly means other people don't have names.

A "generic member of the fellowship" is complete bullshit. I am a named fellowship member. It makes no sense for someone to be in the fellowship, with 9 possible names, and yet be unnamed.

[Khelvaster]

HoS: Massive

The mod "proved" that Matt_S is town, huh?

Anyway, not all town is fellowship. With Eljicko saying he is a member of a fellowship but not having a name, he's screwing around with us. Unnamed townie, sure. Unnamed fellowship, not happening.

[Khelvaster]

I didn't read that post, since the mod deleted it. It would be ethical play, in fact, to just ignore that post.

Even so, Eljcko is, without a doubt, today's lynch. I don't see discussion moving anywhere, and I really dislike the way he repeated what you said. He probably thinks that's a safeclaim or something

[Khelvaster]

It's like a vanilla townie claim, but slightly more dubious.

[Khelvaster]

Vote: Matt_S

I looked at CoolBot's accusations, and it looks to me like he had it in for Matt_S fairly hard because he thought the unnamed fellowship was a safeclaim. This would be a really bad thing for scum if it got out, so that's probably why he was killed.

[Khelvaster]

Yeah, I haven't posted because I've been too lost in this firestorm. Massive/Qman isn't going anywhere. I didn't want to draw their ire by "derailing" their argument.

[Khelvaster]

Unvote: Matt_S

I don't know why I thought Coolbot was town and Talitha was scum.

[Khelvaster]

*chirpchirpchirp*

[Khelvaster]

Maybe I've been off this site / gone from Mafia too long, but we used to just let the Mafia figure out their own fake claims. Maybe scum need coddling nowadays? Somehow I doubt it.

It sure would be nice if there weren't just half the people playing.

Not to mention the fact that some mods can just be sloppy.

[Khelvaster]

When will this end Vote Count

Votes required:

5 to lynch

massive

-

destructor, Matt_S

Qman

-

massive

Not Voting:

5, Imat, Qman, Mert, Ting =), Khelvaster[

Yeah, from the beginning I've said that Khelvaster's actions didn't make much sense. I think it would be justified if I was suspicious of him, especially considering his lackluster performance so far today. You saying that scum don't have safeclaims shouldn't make him any more protown.

Actually, it does make me more pro-town. If you found out, on d2, that scum had safeclaims after someone pushed hard for killing off everyone who wasn't in the fellowship, then that would be really suspicious, since all non-fellowships would be townies if scum had safeclaimed names in the fellowship.

Hopping on this bandwagon to use safeclaims as an argument DOES NOT WIN YOU POINTS.

I'm warning you now about trying to make a bandwagon against those who said safeclaims were an argument. There is a very low chance all the pro-safeclaimers are scum. They are making a logical mistake, but you can't say they are scum because of speculation. You were nailing destructor and Matt hard on that. Not that they don't deserve nailing, but that's a stupidtell, not a scumtell.

Why do you think I'm voting for you? Do you think I'm trying to get your approval? The fact is, I find your logic about safeclaims to be unsatisfactory. The possibility of safeclaims shouldn't be used as evidence, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend that the mafia doesn't have them when we interpret people's actions.

THIS ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS POINTLESS!

UNDERSTAND?

POINTLESS!


So, here's why it's pointless: Originally, some people thought there was no category of named+unfellowship+town. I made the suggestion and pushed very hard that we should make sure that there was a category of unnamed+unfellowship. Otherwise, we could have broken the game by revealing there were nine named+fellowship+town and three named+unfellowship+scum.

After word gets out that there is, indeed, named+unfellowship+town, the scum get a practically infinite number of safeclaims. I wonder whether you have any idea of how many good characters are in The Lord of the Rings and not in the Felloswhip. Just to start naming,

Erkenbrand
Eomer
Eowyn
Glorfindel
(Tod?) Butterbur
Elrond
Theoden
Gamling
Faramir
Bilbo
Galadriel
Fangorn (Treebeard)
Tom Bombadil
Lady Goldberry
Haldir


15 names, none of which are in the Fellowship, and all of which play respectable roles in The Lord of the Rings (although if you haven't read the book, you might not know a few of these.)

Regardless, mafia have plenty of safeclaims without being assigned safeclaims.

[Khelvaster]

Khelvaster-safeclaims.

If as dectructor suggests, the scum have safeclaims, then I'd consider that maybe destructor is scum. He hopped on the mass-nameclaim suggestion. That shows that he either genuinely had a name, or had a safeclaim. Barring those two possibilities, I can't see any reason for anyone to support a mass nameclaim.

At the risk of repeating myself, the scum do have safeclaims. They may not be explicit "You can safeclaim Tom Bombadil," but rather are implicit in the fact that there are so many LoTR characters who could be claimed that it would be really unlikely you'd conflict.

Act like the scum have safeclaims, since, in essence, they do.

[Khelvaster]

Those would be fakeclaims. You're right though, we can't just simply accept any claim from anyone at this point.

Yeah, I didn't realize the distinction.

Mod: Could you release the rolenames of the people who have already died? It would really help us.

[Khelvaster]

You have a point. I don't think it's entirely implausible that scum had safe claims, though. They're not the most common of things but they do turn up often enough that you have to take them into consideration when you're talking about doing any kind of claiming in a theme (or formerly theme) game. I know I gave them out in one game I modded because I was afraid I'd used up all the big-name roles as townies and the scum wouldn't have anyone to claim, and it's not entirely imopssible that that's what the mod of this game figured.

I think it's already been established that scum don't have a problem because of the number of names in LoTR.

On a completely different note, why do you want to summarize why your predecessor was scummy?

[Khelvaster]

HoS: BaB

Covering up a caseless vote with a massive PBPA is not going to work.