Mini 551- Mod Abandoned

[Cogito Ergo Scum]

Less talk, more lynch, please. SF is at L-2.

[Korts]

Alright, the mod got confused, yeah. I'm still against an SF lynch. I mean, we don't know what Khel's original post was, so we can't know anything. You're pushing SF's wagon too hard, I think.

Confirm Vote: Xyl; MFoS: Cogito Ergo Scum

[Cogito Ergo Scum]

I mean, we don't know what Khel's original post was, so we can't know anything.

Does that make any difference? The edited post tells us enough as is, and the unedited post was probably even more incriminating.

[Khelvaster]

Whoever is metagaming me is stupid.

SensPizzaLine: if you don't mind me asking, what did your edited post originally say?
Flubunga: in which game?
SensPizzaLine: Mini 551
SensPizzaLine: the one where you were confused about my post
Flubunga: I was saying
Flubunga: that you can't vote for a cop
Flubunga: by you saying vote: cop
Flubunga: then I saw it was vote: c vote: o vote: p
Flubunga: and I wasn't thinking

Pretty much, I thought he wanted the votecount to register a vote on whoever was cop, if there is a cop, thus either confirming him or showing everyone who the cop was, if there is a cop and if he is cop or non-cop.

[Elias_the_thief]

Alright. That does clear things up a bit. I think that there shouldnt be a counterclaim today if its a fakeclaim, but we have no reason to disbelieve it. I'd like to see what he has to tell us tomorrow.
so

unvote

[lovo14]

wow mod stuff up there....
i am against a sensfan lynch. i seriously dont knwo wat could be gained by faking a pr.

[Elias_the_thief]

Anyways, to all the people who are saying that scum does not gain from a faked PR, youre wrong. For one, it allows them just the sort of WIFOM protection your statement is suggesting, two, it allows them to limit their contribution without being accused of lurking.

Thats what scum gain lovo.

[Xylthixlm]

It seems like many people don't want a SensFan lynch today. That puzzles me, but ok. Time for an analysis.

Cogito Ergo Scum

: Suggests lynching SensFan even if he isn't faking. Maintains that townies often fake PRs. I'm not so sure about those two parts, but otherwise, seems to be consistently protown in attitude.

Elias_the_Thief

: Assumes SensFan is faking his PR. Seems confused by SensFan's miscounted self-vote. Changes direction on the mod confusion issue (first he says it shows SensFan isn't a cop, then he says he's confused, then suggests leaving SensFan until tomorrow). Doesn't strike me as particularly town or scum.

jerubaal

: Pushes the SensFan lynch. Asks an interesting question about SensFan's PR, which never really gets answered. No strong read here either.

Joubert

: One random vote, one post which doesn't really add anything to the discussion. Might need replacement.

Khelvaster

: Obviously scum.

Korts

: Says that if SensFan's PR is faked, he's obviously scum. Doubletalks about whether it's possibly faked. Opposes SensFan lynch on the basis that he might be protown (newbie scum seem to make this argument a lot). Suggests a counter of SensFan's cop claim, which would expose the real cop for a nightkill. Overall, very scummy.

FOS: Korts

lovo14

: Very little contribution. Opposes SensFan lynch without explaining reason. Raises Usurper for no reason I can tell. Also scummy.

matimafia

: Hasn't posted at all, not even to confirm.

Mod, we need a replacement.

theopor_COD

: Hasn't posted since confirming.

Mod, we need a prod and/or replacement.

ting =)

: Says we shouldn't lynch SensFan, then votes him in the same post. Promptly unvotes because he doesn't really want to lynch him(?!). Gives an interesting explaination for SensFan's PR which makes me think he and SensFan aren't scum together. Questions the SensFan wagon, apparently forgetting that he was on it. Uncertain, leaning town.

Overall I think the scummiest players are SensFan, Korts, and lovo14 in that order.

[Elias_the_thief]

it would seem you have left out your reasons for suspecting sens in that post, maybe on purpose. could you summarize?

[Xylthixlm]

I somehow thought that I had talked enough about SensFan, but since you ask:

SensFan

: Has made a lot of posts, but hasn't given any opinions on other players or otherwise looked for scum. Claims a post restriction, which is very unlikely in a normal game. I'd think he was scummy for his lack of content, even without the post restriction; together they me almost certain he's scum.

[Elias_the_thief]

I somehow thought that I had talked enough about SensFan, but since you ask:

yeah, thats what i meant with the "on purpose" comment, as in you thought youd covered it.

As for the points you raise, I'll agree that the PR is unlikely, but that doesnt mean hes scum. I saw my brother once fake a PR for two game days before being discovered, and he turned out to be a one time kill immune townie. So I dont think its a reliable scum tell.

The only reason I do think a Sensfan lynch would be alright is that it would clear the waters as ive said earlier, and give us info about those for or against his lynch. But as of right now, i think that can occur later rather than sooner, and in the meanwhile looking in other directions is better. the result is that ill be rereading tomorrow.

[jerubbaal]

We're going to let the donk with the idiotic PR and really suspect claim off the hook? I absolutely do not approve. If he's scum, there's no way to test his results without lynching at least one townie, and that's assuming he gives us a guilty verdict. Merely assuming three scum, with no other killing/neutral roles, if we mislynch today and follow SensFan to a mislynch tomorrow, we're already in lylo. The strongest case today, by far, is on him, and I see absolutely no reason to pass it by.

There are a lot of people in this game who really need to step it up and actually post something or simply get out. Only about half of the players in this game are actually contributing.

[ting =)]

@xyl - My vote on sensfan was a random vote. That's why i unvoted when i on the next post when i realized it put him dangerously close to a lynch.

@

Isn't 'not doing anything protown' scummy? At least I think it is.

Not to me. It just means that I can't be certain he's town, but I'm not willing to jump to the conclusion that he's scum just because I'm not absolutely sure he's town.

[Korts]

Korts: Says that if SensFan's PR is faked, he's obviously scum. Doubletalks about whether it's possibly faked. Opposes SensFan lynch on the basis that he might be protown (newbie scum seem to make this argument a lot). Suggests a counter of SensFan's cop claim, which would expose the real cop for a nightkill. Overall, very scummy. FOS: Korts

How's not agreeing with you scummy? You know, you're right that a counterclaim would do us no good, but lynching the claimed cop doesn't give him even a chance to prove his claim. I know I did ask whether we should wait for a counterclaim, but I didn't think about the consequences. Sorry, my bad. If we don't lynch SF, he might be NK-ed, but if he isn't, he's scum, as far as I'm concerned. I dunno really, I may be newbie, but if he's town and we lynch him, it's still a step towards losing regardless of his contribution. And I just don't understand the doubletalk comment.

Likewise, Xyl, my top suspect is you, followed by CESc: your reasons amount to "SF can't say anything of value, so let's get rid of him, and anyway he's faking until he proves otherwise" which in my opinion is probably impossible to prove. I'm keeping the vote for now.

About the lurkers, however, I agree.

mod: please do prod or replace Joubert, matimafia and theopor_COD

And lovo seems to be lurking in plain sight, to me.

[SensFan]

Cogito Ergo Scum

: Suggests lynching SensFan even if he isn't faking. Maintains that townies often fake PRs. I'm not so sure about those two parts, but otherwise, seems to be consistently protown in attitude.

Vote: T

Elias_the_Thief

: Assumes SensFan is faking his PR. Seems confused by SensFan's miscounted self-vote. Changes direction on the mod confusion issue (first he says it shows SensFan isn't a cop, then he says he's confused, then suggests leaving SensFan until tomorrow). Doesn't strike me as particularly town or scum.

Vote: S

jerubaal

: Pushes the SensFan lynch. Asks an interesting question about SensFan's PR, which never really gets answered. No strong read here either.

Vote: T

Joubert

: One random vote, one post which doesn't really add anything to the discussion. Might need replacement.

Vote: L

Korts

: Says that if SensFan's PR is faked, he's obviously scum. Doubletalks about whether it's possibly faked. Opposes SensFan lynch on the basis that he might be protown (newbie scum seem to make this argument a lot). Suggests a counter of SensFan's cop claim, which would expose the real cop for a nightkill. Overall, very scummy.

FOS: Korts

Vote: T

lovo14

: Very little contribution. Opposes SensFan lynch without explaining reason. Raises Usurper for no reason I can tell. Also scummy.

Vote: S

matimafia

: Hasn't posted at all, not even to confirm.

Mod, we need a replacement.

Vote: L

theopor_COD

: Hasn't posted since confirming.

Mod, we need a prod and/or replacement.

Vote: L

ting =)

: Says we shouldn't lynch SensFan, then votes him in the same post. Promptly unvotes because he doesn't really want to lynch him(?!). Gives an interesting explaination for SensFan's PR which makes me think he and SensFan aren't scum together. Questions the SensFan wagon, apparently forgetting that he was on it. Uncertain, leaning town.

Vote: S

Xyl

Vote: S

Unvote

[Xylthixlm]

Isn't 'not doing anything protown' scummy? At least I think it is.

Not to me. It just means that I can't be certain he's town, but I'm not willing to jump to the conclusion that he's scum just because I'm not absolutely sure he's town.

"Not doing anything protown"

is

scummy. One of the best ways of separating scum from town is to see if their actions match their claimed motivations. Someone who claims to be town, but does nothing to advance the town's cause, should draw attention.

You're right that you shouldn't lynch just because you aren't absolutely sure someone is town; but you shouldn't

not

lynch just because you aren't absolutely sure someone is scum! The best strategy is almost always to lynch the person you think is

most likely

to be scum... even if that's less than their chance of being town.

[Elias_the_thief]

im i the only one who has no idea what SF's last post was supposed to mean?

[SensFan]

town

Vote: T

scum.

Vote: S

lurkers

Vote: L

[Xylthixlm]

How's not agreeing with you scummy?

If not agreeing with me was scummy, I wouldn't have a town read on ting.

You know, you're right that a counterclaim would do us no good, but lynching the claimed cop doesn't give him even a chance to prove his claim. I know I did ask whether we should wait for a counterclaim, but I didn't think about the consequences. Sorry, my bad.

Either that, or you did think about the consequences and did it anyways.

If we don't lynch SF, he might be NK-ed, but if he isn't, he's scum, as far as I'm concerned.

So all the scum have to do is not kill him, and you'll lynch him tomorrow. We get one confirmed cop inspect out of him if he's town, but then we have to lynch someone else today (most suspects, less info) instead of tomorrow (fewer suspects, more info). And then you pull out the same logic again, and we keep not lynching him, and he skates to endgame.

I dunno really, I may be newbie, but if he's town and we lynch him, it's still a step towards losing regardless of his contribution.

The logical conclusion of reusing to lynch someone because they might be town is for the town to not lynch

anyone

, because on day one you can't be sure someone isn't town. Then we go to night, the scum kill, and we're back at the same situation with no more information and one fewer townie. Eventually, the scum wins.

And I just don't understand the doubletalk comment.

Well, let's look at the comment I linked.

I'm trying to say that I'm, for now, convinced that he's not faking. I admit that there's a fair possibility that he is, but I don't think so, at the moment.

Here you take both sides of the issue. You say you're convinced isn't, but if it turns out that he is, you can come back later and say "Oh, but I admitted there's a possibility that he is". That tells me that you don't really believe what you're saying, and want some insurance.

Likewise, Xyl, my top suspect is you, followed by CESc: your reasons amount to "SF can't say anything of value, so let's get rid of him, and anyway he's faking until he proves otherwise" which in my opinion is probably impossible to prove.

This is most definitely

not

my position. My position is that he could say things of value, but doesn't. If you're going to try to paint me as scummy for something I said, at least do it for something I

actually said

.

[SensFan]

My position is that he could say things of value, but doesn't.

SensFan points to post 164.

[Korts]

Here you take both sides of the issue. You say you're convinced isn't, but if it turns out that he is, you can come back later and say "Oh, but I admitted there's a possibility that he is". That tells me that you don't really believe what you're saying, and want some insurance.

All I was trying to say is that I'm not a hundred percent sure, just pretty convinced. Nothing wrong in being politically correct, is there?

Likewise, Xyl, my top suspect is you, followed by CESc: your reasons amount to "SF can't say anything of value, so let's get rid of him, and anyway he's faking until he proves otherwise" which in my opinion is probably impossible to prove.

This is most definitely not my position. My position is that he could say things of value, but doesn't. If you're going to try to paint me as scummy for something I said, at least do it for something I actually said.

I'm glad if that's not your position, but if you'd like the quotes that made me think that, so be it:

well this isn't exactly it yet, but still a bit scummy in my read:

CESc admits to lying --> null tell. (There's a reason for a townie to do it, but I oppose lying in general.)
CESc doesn't admit to lying, doesn't provide evidence --> scum tell.
CESc doesn't admit to lying, provides evidence --> I get confused.

getting closer:

Chance that he is faking: High.
Chance that he is scum if he is faking: Very high.
Chance that he will be helpful if he is not faking: Low.
Benefit of lynching him compared to any other player: High.

well, maybe you're right and I was wrong. But still, those last two quotes are pretty under the belt for SF, if not scummy. Maybe it was CESc after all who wanted to lynch cos he wouldn't say anything valuable to us.

What you haven't answered:

how can he prove the PR?

[jerubbaal]

You can't prove PRs, that's an idiotic statement. You can disprove them, if he starts breaking the restriction's he's playing by, but you can't prove whether his restrictions are inherent in his role or if they are self-imposed. Absolutely useless line of speculation.

[Xylthixlm]

All I was trying to say is that I'm not a hundred percent sure, just pretty convinced. Nothing wrong in being politically correct, is there?

You call it "being politically correct". I call it a scumtell.

well, maybe you're right and I was wrong. But still, those last two quotes are pretty under the belt for SF, if not scummy. Maybe it was CESc after all who wanted to lynch cos he wouldn't say anything valuable to us.

In other words, you've been arguing that I'm scum for a false reason. So why are you still arguing? It looks like you started with the goal of creating a counterwagon on me, and then went looking for reasons.

What you haven't answered:

how can he prove the PR?

He can't, and I've never expected him to.

[Korts]

How is lynching SensFan helpful to town? As far as I can tell, that's nothing more than a OMGPRS lynch. Yes, it's annoying, but he hasn't actually done anything scummy unless you can prove he's actually faking his PR.

But how would he be able to do something scummy at all with this PR? Other than using his vote, he can hardly do anything producive for the town. And since such a PR is very rare in a mini normal, I'd rather say he's faking his PR unless we can prove he's actually not.

looks like I'm wrong again, Xyl... That was CESc too. Sorry.

unvote: Xyl

[Korts]

I'm a bit confused now...