Mini 508- Trouble in New Catania-Game Over


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Post Post #500 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:29 pm

Post by The Fonz »

Votecount brought to you by the New York Post- with added sensationalism!


RossWilliam 3 (Rishi,Lowell,Thesp)
someone2 3 (Thok,Setael, Claus)
Lowell 2 (someone2, Ythill)

Not voting: RossWilliam

I'm going to have LA likely until the weekend, but it shouldn't affect this game too much.
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Post Post #501 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:34 am

Post by Thesp »

I'd like to hear a claim from RossWilliam, but he's absconded. ;)
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Post Post #502 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:55 am

Post by Claus »

Just to say I'm still around. I'm almost finishing the paper that was keeping me V/LA'd for most of January, so I should be able to sit and enjoy a good re-read somewhere around this weekend.
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Post Post #503 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:13 pm

Post by Rishi »

Claus wrote: -- Rishi seems just tunneling on the sidelines.

Rishi: Do you think that the Kuribo and Vaughn bandwagons were without merit? What do you think of Someone2? Thok? Thesp?
Very busy. Sorry. I thought the kuribo bandwagon was without merit after he claimed. I definitely believed the claim and wasn't sure why people were still on it. Obviously, I wouldn't have voted for Vaughn if I thought his wagon had no merit, so I understand why people were on it.

Everyone else is suspicious of someone2, and I'd be lying if that didn't rub off on me a little. But I have yet to see anything conclusive. Everyone just seems to be shouting, "He's scummy! It's obvious!" I think the case on him hasn't been super-strong.

Thok - neutral. I don't have a strong opinion on him.

I feel Thesp is pro-town.

And I still don't like the way Lowell is playing.
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Post Post #504 (ISO) » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:41 pm

Post by Ythill »

I’ve done the footwork for an analysis of each of the four major wagons: Lowell, S2, kurbio, and Vaugn. My analysis of the Lowell wagon is provided here. The others will follow within a day or three, time permitting.

Since I’m in deep reading mode and we have no deadline I’m going to
unvote
for now.

The Lowell Wagon


The early wagon develops naturally over a 54 post span, starting with FoSes but slowly gathering votes. LML’s FoS is slimy, but everyone else seems to have sound reasons for suspicion. Lowell’s defenses do nothing to clear him. He’s at L-3 when LML turns his FoS to a vote, bringing the wagon into claim danger.

Though they are on the wagon, HS and kurbio make strong arguments against LML’s cases and HS catches the main thread of LML’s manipulations in #105. LML isn’t dissuaded.
S2 is acting scummy when he pushes Lowell to L-1. Rite continues to cheerlead the wagon he’s already voting.

D_O pushes the wagon hard though he never votes.
Lowell gives his OMGUS “last words.” S2 points out that D_O didn’t hammer which draws out a very scummy response. Rishi calls for the wagon to cease which begins Word War Lowell, a contest without votes.
Again, LML’s cases are questioned and discredited but his vote remains. Even Lowell manages a good defense here.
Word War Lowell continues with discussion about the deadline extension;
D_O changes sides so distinctly that S2 lists him as anti-Lowell-lynch
.

There is movement to S2 and LML preempts his vote hop. Kurbio does the same. Several of the wagoneers push to hold it together to no avail.
Rishi posts an unvote though he wasn’t voting
, Ibby calls the wagon stinky and unvotes, and things start to fall apart. Rite digs in, even asks for a deadline. Rishi and Ibby wage war against the wagon. D_O plays both sides. S2 becomes confused and borders on advocating a no lynch. We’re down to three wagoneers, all of them lurky.

Seta makes a mild but well founded argument against Lowell. Rishi now jumps on the Lowell wagon, but hops off a little while later, prefering an S2 lynch to a no lynch. Rite does the same but isn’t happy about it. This leaves two lurkers on the wagon. Day ends in no lynch.

D2, there is a strange lack of Lowell suspicion.
Thok seasons his posts with a backhanded defense of Lowell, whom he wrongly calls the VI.
Rishi, kurbio, and S2 all mention Lowell suspicions (and RW chimes in here) but there are no votes. Day ends with lynch of a townie.

D3 has brought us a jab from RW, a meandering-toward-suspicion read from Claus, and my second-choice vote.

Conclusions


The wagoneers piled on slowly and, for the most part, honestly. LML is painted in a suspicious light and D_O comes across as a scummy manipulator of the situation. The hammer never comes, because Lowell is scum? S2 was last on and first off and is still taking flak from the morphing attacks that started at that peak. The voters fall off one by one, scattering to other targets. Two were facing their own attackers, two deadline hopped to another wagon with steam.

Though he votes Lowell for a very short span, Rishi goes to great lengths to derail this wagon. He is assisted in this by D_O, Ibby, and CTD.

Notable is the way N1 washes away all serious suspicions of Lowell. Whereas a nearly-lynched town player will usually draw some flak from ambitious scum, and whereas Lowell started lurking D2 without otherwise changing his habits, neither scum nor town seems interested in lynching him anymore. Also notable is Thok’s one-man stand against a Lowell lynch that is no longer being pursued by anyone; remember that LML = Thok (the most hollow case = the backhanded lych decrier of D2).

Discussion?
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #505 (ISO) » Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:14 am

Post by Thesp »

I am still awaiting RossWilliam's claim.
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Post Post #506 (ISO) » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:25 am

Post by someone2 »

I'm really sorry for my lack of activity, got a history exam this week. Will try to post tomorriw
Show
Hi!

Win as:
town:0/3
scum:0/0

Not very good heh?
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Post Post #507 (ISO) » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:12 pm

Post by Ythill »

Check in post. Wondering of I should bother with wagon analyses, as it seems as if nobody's interested at this point. I'll look over the notes myself, at least, and see if they alter my suspicions.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #508 (ISO) » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:09 pm

Post by Thesp »

Waiting on RossWilliam - thanks everyone who's checking in.
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Post Post #509 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:11 am

Post by Setael »

Ythill, I would appreciate you posting your wagon analyses. I haven't had time to comment on your first one, but I think it was really intuitive. (As you can imagine, I'm anxious for your analysis of the someone2 wagon). Carry on!
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Post Post #510 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:17 pm

Post by RossWilliam »

Just got back from California. Sorry for inconveniancing everything. gonna reread and digest and reply soon.
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Post Post #511 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:32 pm

Post by RossWilliam »

thesp....I wish I could excite you by claiming something extravagent, but I am just town.
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Post Post #512 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:07 pm

Post by Thesp »

Happy with my vote.
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Post Post #513 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:29 pm

Post by Claus »

Sorry for the inactivity.

After reading Ythill's bandwagon analysis, I decided to re-read the three "PE#1", S2, DO/RW and Lowell.

Here is the short version:

Unvote: Someone2
vote: RossWillians


And here is the long version:

DO/RW:
DO was ambivalent towards the Lowell bandwagon, by cheering for and against it, but he was also ambivalent towards Kuribo and S2, saying both looked suspicious, but never voting any of them.

Now, my first analysis of DO is that he was a VI. That's my experience with him from another game. However, doing a quick meta of him shows me that when he is usually more liberal with his votes. It makes sense for me a scum-D_O to become vote-timid.

Re-reading RW in isolation, I see him dismissing Lowell and S2 completely in his first post, and going for the neck on kuribo, after he had claimed. He jumps into Vaugn bandwagon without reasoning. his "kuribo makes less and less sense, vaugn makes more and more sense" post says nothing.

Then he asks Thesp for more opinions on the game. I ask him for information, and he says he is busy. Now he says he is busy again, and claims townie.

I actually believe he is/was busy. But scum can get busy just as well as town.

Result: much scummier than before this read.

S2:

Hrm. I think I was wrong regarding Someone2. If you re-read S2 posts with "Assume Good Faith" in mind, he comes up as much more town-like.

I still would like very much to hear from Thesp the "very pro-town" posts from someone2 - please thesp, if you have the time don't skip this question. But I don't wanna lynch someone2 anymore today.

Lowell:

... ... ...
throws hands into the air.

I can't read Lowell. I would hate to be with him in the endgame. My mind says "lynch the sucker - if he is town he needs to play better", my gut says "it's a trap!"


===============================
Oh, and RW is at L-1 now, FYI.
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Post Post #514 (ISO) » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:05 pm

Post by Ythill »

Seta wrote:Ythill, I would appreciate you posting your wagon analyses.
Okay. Just checking in before bed, but I'll try to throw something together tomorrow, unless someone hammers RW before then.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


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Post Post #515 (ISO) » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:25 pm

Post by Ythill »

The Someone2 Wagon (D1)


A sneak preview of suspicion against S2 begins in 59. LML says S2’s case against Lowell is flawed, while also pointing out that it is too strong for an FoS. S2 enters an OMGUS defense, Stree quotes LML and votes. BMQ erroneously declares that S2 is the lynch for the day, to which Claus (the “actual” lynch) replies with a heavy case against S2. The defense against this is promted by D_O, posted adequately by S2, and assisted by HS who rebuts the original LML accusations. Stree unvotes. S2 announces a vacation and the votes drop off.

S2 stumbles back into the spotlight during the peak of the Lowell wagon, posting his infamous #162, in which he makes the bulk of scumtells still held against him today. These include The Slip (one scum left), exaggerating the information potential of a lynch, unvoting Lowell while declaring suspicion against him, and attributing that unvote to an opinion of “town readiness” apparently at odds with his earlier take on the subject (provided tacitly by his L-1 vote). Each of these "tells" has a reasonable explanation that allows S2's alignment to be town. I treat this post separately because it is the crux of much to come.

CTD points out The Slip, S2 corrects himself, CTD morphs the attack and they spar. Meanwhile, LML and Lowell cite The Slip, jumping on the wagon. D_O and Rite do the same but with a F/HoS. The CTD vs. S2 discussion has dismissed The Slip by #174 and the attack has morphed into a bevy of accusations coming from a few directions, but The Slip is still cited heavily. S2 defends himself well, assisted by Rite, Rishi, and Kurbio. Lowell says we need a better wagon and hops off. Ibby mentions The Slip as a tell but later votes for unrelated reasons. Through it all, the wagon hovers around 2-4 votes until the second deadline is posted.

Ibby recruits Seta and pushes the wagon with Kurbio’s help. S2 has posted another defense but he’s getting hit from many directions and becomes more of a topic than a participant. Seta plays devil’s advocate to the wagon and Rishi openly argues against it. CTD doesn’t get involved. A vote count reveals the Core of the wagon (CTD, Ibby, Seta). Lowell, Rishi, and Rite jump on, referencing the deadline; CTD pushes the wagon; Seta asks for a claim at the appropriate time. D1 ends with S2 @ L-1 and no lynch.

The Someone2 Wagon (D2)


Ibby is dead, but the rest of the Core starts right in on S2. They gain few votes at first but support gathers from DGB (the new LML), D_O, and Vaugn. S2 makes some strong defenses himself. His allies include kurbio and Rishi. The latter incites Seta, who leaves her wagon momentarily to jab at him. Vaugn hopped off momentarily for a joke, but has been pushing the wagon pretty hard.

Thok finds S2 scummy out of the gate and RW joins him. Seta jumps back on. She asks S2 for suspicions and he delivers them; notable that two of his Core attackers are listed as town. Thok turns his suspicion to a vote and Vaugn shouts “S2 is scum” all the way to the gallows. The day ends with a pointless twilight vote change from Thok, which struck me as odd.

The Someone2 Wagon (D3)


One of S2’s defenders has been killed by the mafia. Yes, he was a claimed power role but a claimed tracker is arguably more useful to the mafia than he is to town, at least for a couple of days.

Thok starts the wagon right back up. Seta cheerleads him before jumping back on with bulldozer attacks. Rishi has stopped speaking in S2’s defense but Thesp has taken his place, albeit less aggressively. Claus became a strong supporter of S2 for awhile (vote with a case, two confirms on vote) and Lowell slipped in a jab.

I announce S2 as MotR and accuse Seta of tunneling, becoming enmeshed in the Thesp vs. Seta debate. The game lags. Claus withdraws his support based on a reread, shifting to the RW wagon with an extensive case.

Conclusions


It intrigues me when I see continuity in the actions of a role across replacements. Claus attacks S2 heavily in the preview (in a way that could be a defensive move vs. BMQ); CTD is the most vocal and stubborn D1 supporter of an S2 lynch; Claus re-replaces to attack S2 heavily on D3. A similar tangent occurs with LML/DGB/Thok, though the attacks are less aggressive. I would understand these patterns if S2 had dropped a smoking gun but he hasn’t.

Most of the tells on S2 are questionable or have been extensively explained. This has required the attacks of long-time supporters to morph. His wagon has been controversial since its inception, meaning that people have been arguing reasonably against it. Two of his defenders were confirmed town, the rest have been varied enough that calling them all scumbuddies isn’t plausible.

Other than the deadline votes it garnered on D1, S2’s lynch has been called for loudly by a stubborn few. Of them, Ibby and Vaugn were confirmed town and I think at least one other must be town because scum are unlikely to push so hard by themselves.

Claus eleventh-hour drop-off has made his actions here seem even more suspect and, since my read on him has been town, I’m going to have to rethink my global perceptions to grok this.

The responses to S2’s #162 should be examined carefully. What nobody explained about The Slip was that making assumptions about the number of mafia (even without the language debacle) is usually a non-tell that can draw opportunism from the scum and cause overreaction from townies. Here, the language explanation makes the tell even less reliable, yet the large majority of the D1 attacks against S2 take a position regarding The Slip and either cite it directly or are based on other tells from #162.

In brief: The Slip drew attention to S2 and, in the paranoid state of mafia play, attention quickly turned into suspicion. Differentiating between those who fell victim to this dynamic and those who based manipulations on it should give us a pretty accurate picture of whom to lynch.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


"So yeah, it is a sign from the angels." ~CooLDoG
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Post Post #516 (ISO) » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:34 pm

Post by RossWilliam »

Ythill....what is your intention with that post? to simply spread information? Or to clear S2's name, or even to discredit it? I'm curious.
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Post Post #517 (ISO) » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:26 pm

Post by Ythill »

RW wrote:Ythill....what is your intention with that post?
My intention in posting wagon analyses in general was to make a public record of impressions I'm gaining from deep rereads of each wagon, and to generate discussion about the things revealed therein.

I started this with Lowell but abandonned the idea after nobody responded to my first analysis. Then Seta showed interest in my thoughts regarding the S2 wagon and so I put together the above post.

In analysis mode, I'm not trying to clear or discredit anyone, I am simply calling the shots as I see them. Incidentally, I think my post does challenge some of the suspicions against S2 but it is the product of a neutral read.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


"So yeah, it is a sign from the angels." ~CooLDoG
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Post Post #518 (ISO) » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:28 pm

Post by Ythill »

I'm not quite ready to hammer RW yet. Will think about it overnight and, unless I come up with a good reason not to, I'll string him up in the morning.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


"So yeah, it is a sign from the angels." ~CooLDoG
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Post Post #519 (ISO) » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:08 am

Post by Rishi »

Ythill wrote:
RW wrote:Ythill....what is your intention with that post?
My intention in posting wagon analyses in general was to make a public record of impressions I'm gaining from deep rereads of each wagon, and to generate discussion about the things revealed therein.

I started this with Lowell but abandonned the idea after nobody responded to my first analysis. Then Seta showed interest in my thoughts regarding the S2 wagon and so I put together the above post.

In analysis mode, I'm not trying to clear or discredit anyone, I am simply calling the shots as I see them. Incidentally, I think my post does challenge some of the suspicions against S2 but it is the product of a neutral read.
For the record, I find it helpful.
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Post Post #520 (ISO) » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:55 am

Post by RossWilliam »

I do as well, Rishi. That wasn't my question
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Post Post #521 (ISO) » Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:14 pm

Post by Ythill »

Sorry about the lapse. I've been busy and my other game is at a crucial point.

I've looked for a reason to keep RW alive and the best I can come up with is that I find Thok just as scummy. Which isn't a very good reason.

RW was my PE#1 after my first reread and was only unvoted because of his absence. Scummy play stretches over both players who've held the role. I checked my wagon notes regarding RW's actions vs. kurbio and Vaugn; they are as Claus has pointed out.

Here's to hoping we're right, because otherwise we're at LYLO tomorrow.

vote RossWilliam


Goodnight.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


"So yeah, it is a sign from the angels." ~CooLDoG
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Post Post #522 (ISO) » Thu Feb 07, 2008 10:48 pm

Post by The Fonz »

Final votecount of day three:

RossWilliam 5 (Rishi,Lowell,Thesp, Claus, Ythill)

someone2 2 (Thok,Setael)
Lowell 1 (someone2)

A degree of panic started to set in amongst the town on day three. With no criminals caught yet, every citizen looked at his neighbor as if he might be the one whose death might be necessary to end this.

Eventually, though, a consensus started to form. The crowd gathered around a bespectacled, graying man, demanding an explanation for his recent behavior. RossWilliam tried his best to convince his fellow citizens he wasn't involved, but nothing he could say would convince them otherwise. He was strung up by his neck, and left to die.

A search of RossWilliam's house revealed a medical diploma, a collection of very fine wines, a suitcase stuffed with counterfeit bills, and a signed photo of Salvatore Panucci.
From this, it was easy to work out his occupation.

RossWilliam,
Mafia Doctor,
, has been lynched.


It is now night three. Choices within 72 hours please.
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Post Post #523 (ISO) » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:11 pm

Post by The Fonz »

Rishi was a fairly humdrum guy, living an average kind of life. Pretty wife, in a homely kinda way. Kids in the middle of their class. Drove a Ford, and liked Phil Collins.

Rishi met his end in a similarly undramatic manner, in so far as a murder could ever be routine. Two shots to the back of the head were sufficient to do the deed, and the news in the morning bore a pretty strong resemblance to that of previous days. Just another senseless killing, the usual warm tributes, and a further fostering of the desire for mob justice.

Rishi,
Vanilla Townie,
has been shot.


It is now Day Four. With Seven alive, it is four to lynch.
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Post Post #524 (ISO) » Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:00 pm

Post by Ythill »

Finally, I lynch scum! Doing a happy I-helped-lynch-scum dance. For why, check my sig.

I'm probably not going to make my analyses of the kurbio and Vaugn wagons public yet, because I believe we have more important things to talk about. Will do an isolated reread of RW and his forebearers sometime in the next 24 hours or so.

As for Rishi's death, he was light content enough to be a safe mafia kill. I'll glance at who he might have been onto, especially earlier in the game, but I don't think his alignment gives us much information.
Record:
Town 10W/15L
Scum 4W/1L
Other 2W/2L
Newbie 1L


"So yeah, it is a sign from the angels." ~CooLDoG

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