Mafia 75: Return of the Mafia! TOWN WINS (really late)

[Khelvaster]

FoS: Armlix

Battle Mage is scummy in all his games. He tends to be a lightning rod for scum to start BWs on.

He is? From what I had heard about him second hand he seemed like a far too well respected player for me to assume he would get repeatedly wagoned for being scummy.

Battle Mage made a name for himself by being the most prolific player on mafiascum. This came at the price of him not paying attention to any of his games, since he was in 18 at one time at his high point (so the rumor goes.) He realized, later on, that he'd do so much better if he'd play in less games, so that's what he did.

However, his playstyle is still really scummy. He is a fantastic mod, and a decent player, but people who don't get his playstyle lynch him automatically. I can refer you to mini 449 for a shining example of this.

[armlx]

If anything that game has made me much more sure of my vote. If he was willing to run the old claim cop as townie, the odds he would run the claim miller as scum go WAY up.

[Rosso Carne]

FoS: Armlix

Battle Mage is scummy in all his games. He tends to be a lightning rod for scum to start BWs on.

being scummy in all your games means youre basically a suck ass player.

[JordanA24]

Sorry, this happened last night and I forgot to tell the thread.

Andycyca replaces Fattierob

EDIT: Votecount was also updated

[Battle Mage]

If anything that game has made me much more sure of my vote. If he was willing to run the old claim cop as townie, the odds he would run the claim miller as scum go WAY up.

that makes no sense. Oh and i should add 1 thing that Khelv missed there, which is that the only time i fakeclaim as town (ive also done it in Clue Mafia) is when im about to get lynched myself. In fact, its the only time i claim as scum too. I dont do gambits when i am not under any pressure atall. -.-

BM

[Battle Mage]

I'm not convinced you don't have an additional role. I'm just more convinced its more probably that you don't or (specifically) are scum. The scum thing mainly comes from your first interaction with Nemesis, which I felt was absurd yet phrase well enough to garner support from less logical people and mainly following the oEJo started wagon, which is what the top 3 scummy people on my list did (You, oEJo, Incognito). Also the circumstances of your claim seem odd to me, but I'm going to have to think how to exactly qualify what I mean by this.

Ok fair enough. But do you really want to condemn me for starting a minor wagon on page 1?

Scum safe claim of miller: How many people doubted you besides me? One, two? You see my point? (By safe claim I don't mean a mod granted one, but a role people believe to be confirmed as pro-town ie. scum claiming doctor + people not dying one night and no counterclaim).

I dont think anyone believes it as confirmed protown. But it is a null tell atm, or at worst, a strange minor scumtell. Anyway, i dont do gambits out of the blue. especially in a game like this, were i scum, id much rather set up some newer players by drawing them into the limelight. Its hardly a 'safe'claim because by definition it has connotations of scum. But its the role ive been given.

BM

I'm not auto accepting you as scum. I unvoted you after real discussion started and actually scummy people started to appear and revoted after you pinged my scumdar on top of my early suspicions. Just based on this, I'ld probably have you top 3 on my scuminess list with Incognito and oEJo, but combined with the miller claim I'm willing to put you ahead of them.

ok, so the only real reason behind ur vote on me other than the claim, is that i put pressure on Nemesis. I dont find that wholly convincing. It was quite reasonable to be wary of a newer player coming in and seeming to let slip extra knowledge. I think you'd find most IC's wouldve said the same tbh.

BM

[Battle Mage]

because that's just my style, i don't vote early.

link to other games please?

BM

[Andycyca]

Hi everybody. As Jordan said, I'm replacing. While I'm rereading, and as a precaution,

UNVOTE

[Imat]

It seems to me that armix has been hounding BM for awhile, even though, in my opinion, BM has answered each question satisfactorily. What I don't see is armix being questioned for his overzealousness in this particular lynch, where, as its been stated, a townie is more likely to be lynched than our true enemy, the Mafia. Care to comment on this at all armix?

[Battle Mage]

It seems to me that armix has been hounding BM for awhile, even though, in my opinion, BM has answered each question satisfactorily. What I don't see is armix being questioned for his overzealousness in this particular lynch, where, as its been stated, a townie is more likely to be lynched than our true enemy, the Mafia. Care to comment on this at all armix?

this is a surprising reaction considering how Armlx has been defending you, and i've been attacking you. Maybe i was a bit hasty.

Unvote: Imat

[Khelvaster]

FoS: Armlix

Battle Mage is scummy in all his games. He tends to be a lightning rod for scum to start BWs on.

It seems to me that armix has been hounding BM for awhile, even though, in my opinion, BM has answered each question satisfactorily. What I don't see is armix being questioned for his overzealousness in this particular lynch, where, as its been stated, a townie is more likely to be lynched than our true enemy, the Mafia. Care to comment on this at all armix?

Yeah...Armlix won't keep off of BM. I FoS'd him, and I totally agree with you. He hasn't stopped or explained himself. As a result, for now,

Vote: Armlix

[Incognito]

armlx, I asked you a question that you seemed to overlook. Could you please respond to this post as well: Post 345?

[armlx]

Incognito: Sorry, I didn't see that due to my simul post. I thought it was already there and I had read it already when checking the thread later.

What I mean is if the town came to an understanding that BM should not be allowed to live to the end game (as it just leads to really awkward scenarios any way you look at it) I would be willing to go after other people.

As for why he won't die, lets assume BM is town. Why would scum kill someone that the town will always doubt at least a little bit? He wouldn't die as scum either, as every scum group would think the same thing. More or less, either way he lives unless the town decides he should die, whether it be vig or lynch.

BM:

I'm not just condemning you for the Nemesis thing. You also followed oEJo's terrible logic bandwagon, as did Incognito. Notice who my top 3 scummy people are? Yeah, you 3.

Also, Nemesis is hardly a new player. Look at his join date, he's been around twice as long as you.

Imat:

So you are saying that because the odds of someone we are lynching are slanted towards them being town, we shouldn't push for their lynch? Isn't this always true (between 2/3 and 3/4 are pro-town in most games). My point is while BM claiming miller still means he is more likely to be pro-town, he is less likely to be pro-town than a random player, and even less likely given his behavior. If this isn't what you meant, feel free to clarify so I can respond to the correct question.

[Imat]

I just feel like you are hounding somebody down with obvious intent to kill when he may not be lying about being the Miller. It may not be the best strategy for a Miller to reveal himself, but its not the worst either. I'm saying that BM has satisfactorily answered every question given him and yet you still fight tooth and nail for his lynch. His behavior also doesn't seem as scummy as you obviously think, Scum would tend to avoid some of the questions posed to him, as you have done on occasion. My point is, you are looking scummier than BM IMO. You may not be Mafia either, but you need to answer more of the questions people are starting to ask about you before I can give any kind of answer to that.

[armlx]

Imat:

I've already said I accept that BM could be the miller. However, while you feel he has answered questions, I feel he has only answered the irrelevant meta based ones while avoiding answering issues about his behavior in game. While you say his behavior isn't super scummy, the thing so far it relatively is the scummiest in game by a fair amount.

As for questions, feel free to ask more or point out the ones I have missed (as Incognito did) and I will answer them. I think I have answered all the ones so far and am just waiting on responses from those who asked them and other people to respond to continue those lines of discussion.

Also, 1 more question to BM and a statement

especially in a game like this, were i scum, id much rather set up some newer players by drawing them into the limelight.

Look at your vote on Imat. At least to me, this seems like exactly like what you are trying to do. Set up someone who is clearly new and doesn't understand the specific style of play (ie random votes) here with arguments that only apply to those who choose to buck the current system knowingly.

Now the question: Don't you think newer players would be more willing to accept an experienced player making a miller claim, where as experienced players would be more likely to consider and call a bluff as I have?

[Battle Mage]

Incognito: Sorry, I didn't see that due to my simul post. I thought it was already there and I had read it already when checking the thread later.

What I mean is if the town came to an understanding that BM should not be allowed to live to the end game (as it just leads to really awkward scenarios any way you look at it) I would be willing to go after other people.

As for why he won't die, lets assume BM is town. Why would scum kill someone that the town will always doubt at least a little bit? He wouldn't die as scum either, as every scum group would think the same thing.

You are being hypocritical here. On the one hand, you say that i will live to endgame because people doubt me, and yet, it is you making this mistake, not everyone else. You are CAUSING the problems that you are so worried about. Odds on i wont survive till endgame anyway, as one of the more experienced players, i may get NKed despite my claim. But if i do, be glad because i might be the difference between victory and defeat.

BM:

I'm not just condemning you for the Nemesis thing. You also followed oEJo's terrible logic bandwagon, as did Incognito. Notice who my top 3 scummy people are? Yeah, you 3.

Ah good, we appear to be getting somewhere. Please can you link me to this, or explain more fully?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Also, 1 more question to BM and a statement

especially in a game like this, were i scum, id much rather set up some newer players by drawing them into the limelight.

Look at your vote on Imat. At least to me, this seems like exactly like what you are trying to do. Set up someone who is clearly new and doesn't understand the specific style of play (ie random votes) here with arguments that only apply to those who choose to buck the current system knowingly.

Erm by 'set up' i meant actually lynch, not just put 1 vote on. lol
And besides, u cant condemn me every time i pressurise a newer player. Im just saying that as town, im not going to ignore the pro's, as i might have as scum.

Now the question: Don't you think newer players would be more willing to accept an experienced player making a miller claim, where as experienced players would be more likely to consider and call a bluff as I have?

No, i think the exact opposite. Id expect newbs to naturally come and suspect the guy who claims miller. Im happy to accept that.
On the other hand, i'd expect more experienced players to realise how claiming miller at the start of a game can be helpful, and furthermore, to realise that this is nothing that i would consider doing as scum, or at the very least that it isnt a scumtell.

BM

[armlx]

BM: Fair point on the experience player thing. However, again, what worries me is no one doubts you. I'm sorry my logic is circular here, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

Edit in same post: Hmm, thought of good way to explain it.


Doubt:
Town: Lynched
Scum: Lynched

Same both ways.

No Doubt:
Town: Possible NK, possible live with attempt to make people doubt you
Scum: Less possible NK (via other killing group), claim you were let live to sow doubt when questioned.

Possible WIFOM both ways, probably resulting in you being lynched IMO.

Wagon: The wagon I'm referring to is the one on TNE, on the bottom of page 9 and top of page 10. Posts 215, 232, 233.

Imat vote: My point was Imat's play was clearly a new play mistake, and you attacking him for it with a vote seemed a lot like what you were describing where you draw out a dumb newbie mistake as a scum tell. Same with the TNE issue.


Newbs and miller claims: I'ld expect newbs to follow what a good player claims to be the meta choice as opposed to attacking him for it, where as experienced players are more likely to consider every possibility.

[Imat]

Well, I now have no clue who to vote for, so I'll continue to watch these debates. The only people who worry me now are the ones who don't post much.

Also, I believe I forgot to do this,

Unvote

[armlx]

New post for new topic branch:

Incognito is now second on my list to lynch again maybe over taking BM based on later actions. I just realized his vote on TNE was long enough (chronologically) after BM's for him to take into account one of the stronger players had signed onto the band wagon. I missed this as I read both posts at the same time every other time and didn't look at IRL time stamps, just relative in game ones. My suspicions increase 10 fold if BM turns out not mafia, and probably decrease if he does turn out mafia. If the town can agree to eventually off BM or as previously stated Incognito does something dumb, I will vote him.

[Charity]

I voted for Battle Mage before but decided to unvote because people were like keeping their votes. There's only suspicions and I don't know how to figure out scum or not. I just need more practice I guess. I would like people to try to convince me to vote for a certain person.

[Nemesis]

Nemesis and Antithesis, I've liked your contributions to the game so far but I've noticed that neither of you are currently voting. Where do your suspicions lie at this point in the game?

Off the top of my head:

VanDamien, WhoMe? and TheSweatpantsNinja strike me as slightly scummy. But I don't really have anything concrete. I don't particularly trust anyone either at this point. I've got barely anything solid on anyone. Since Rosso Carne said he was confirmable, I've mostly been waiting for something to happen that would merit a lynch, or at least a decent push as at the moment I'm not getting relyable reads from anyone. oEJo's last vote appeared to be scummy when I first saw it, but the amount of people that immediately jumped on it led me to wonder... Some of the votes on him seemed to be slightly oportunistic and the vote itself isn't something I could happily lynch someone over.

Just a question, which may or may not be better put in another part of the forum, what does FoS stand for? The S is probably Scum, but I can't figure out the rest...

Finger of Suspicion.

If you don't understand other abbreviations, check outthe Wiki abbreviations page.

[Nemesis]

EBWOP: The off the top of my head comment is supposed to mean - without rereading to find reasons why I think they are scummy... Just based on gut and suchlike and therefore fairly impossible to defend against, thus I didn't mention them until I was asked.

[RossWilliam]

armlx, could you maybe reword post 367? It kinda went over my head. I thought I was on my out of the noob catergory, but apparently I've got one foot in the door. I'm finding this game really hard to digest, and most attempts to reread usually end in skimming. I'll figure it out soon, though, no worries. I always get a little overwhelmed when I replace in

[Nemesis]

That reminds me. BM is probably going to get vigged soon. Why are we lynching him now?

I appreciate day 1 lynches are often called random, but I still don't see why we are lynching him now rather than later if he is still alive.

Despite all the possible day 1 lynch randomness arguements I can think of, if the vig kills tonight, it will surely be more 'random' and have no chance of someone claiming to save themself.

So I'm just curious at the moment.