Open 59 - Daytalk 12! (Game Over) before 545

[Mizzy]

While I agree with you for the most part, I don't think L-1 is the right way to go about it at this time. kabenon promised that he would follow up with content and while the likelihood of someone hammering him while he's at that position is unlikely (especially if he's scum), I'd rather not take that chance. I'm still extremely interested in seeing what Xtoxm has to say about the game so far, and I still dislike Adel's posts in this game. I feel like she's almost getting a free ride while other people scrutinize each other or defend her actions.

Well, he's not at -1L now, so that fixes that. On your point about Adel, people have tried to question her directly in the past and we've not gotten good responses. You can only lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. It sucks, but if a player is unwilling to play along, we can't force them, even if it does give them a free ride.

[Incognito]

Well, he's not at -1L now, so that fixes that. On your point about Adel, people have tried to question her directly in the past and we've not gotten good responses. You can only lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. It sucks, but if a player is unwilling to play along, we can't force them, even if it does give them a free ride.

This is why I jokingly vowed in another game to never play with Adel again. It sucks playing in a game with her where there's only two groups: vanilla or scum. It's because of players like her that cops are necessary.

[Guardian]

notes as I re-read day 1:

cic & jdodge not team. 12-17

jdodge votes xyzzy for pretty good reasons.
sir t follows with 2, explains well.

kab 3-wagons xyzzy without explaining..
62-64 looks like kab was thinking of claiming power??

disciple slayer (mizzy) even more shamelessly bandwagons xyzzy.

vollkan then votes xyzzy cuz of inactivity -- no indication he finds xyzzy scummy.

Adel -1's xyzzy with no explanation whatsoever.

kab unvotes cuz he doesn't want quick lynch. +points

vollkan unvotes, +points

xyz votes adel

mizy unvotes... little late? wagon got too stale?

mizzy and adel probably not scum together, mizy unvoted to make 3 votes on xyz and 2 on Adel.

I think from DS & Mizzy's actions, Mizzy is a good scum candidate.

DS's vote on xyz was pure, unfettered, wagoning, saying he agreed 100% with jdodge. Mizy then unvotes really late near deadline without voting anyone else, doesn't want to be on the townie lynch.

unvote

fos: Mizzy

Mizzy, explain your unvote? Why'd you do it?

Kab can you explain 62-64?? How do I interpret it without thinking you were gonna claim power?

fos: Kab

unless adequate response there.

fos: Adel

. Seriously, Adel might not be a bad play today. she -1 wagon'd xyz, she claimed scum, she wanted the setup changed midroute, she's been (imo) over-representing her contact with nab nab...

Adel is about as scummy with Mizzy for me right now. Kab not at all far behind them. Who I vote depends on how Mizzy and Kab explain themselves. Not sure Adel can explain herself...

I think I was off on going after vollkan based on Adel & kab's logic.

gotta run, sorry if typos/unclear etc.

[Mizzy]

fos: Mizzy

Mizzy, explain your unvote? Why'd you do it?

I SAID why I unvoted. I spoke with 2 people via daytalk and between those conversations and another full re-read, I felt that the xyzzywagon was bullshit. There was no evidence of scum, and no, I didn't want to be on a townie lynch because (funny that) lynching townies is anti-town.

Arguing about why I didn't want to be on the wagon lynch (both scum and town have equally valid reasons for not wanting to be on a townie lynch) is terribly WIFOM.

[kabenon007]

Can we see some statistics that you didn't pull out of your ass to back up the claim that scum read less often than townies? Can you provide proof that said person making mistakes is because their of their alignment and lack of reading the thread and not due to any other factor such as level of business or because of an honest mistake?

Sigh... you make this too easy for us Mizzy. You're next on my list, just so you know. For the statistics part of your post, one need only use that lump three feet above their ass. Townies simply do not not read the thread. They might make a mistake reading the thread, they might misinterpret, but they will always read the thread, unless they are just poor players, which don't even try to convince me that JDodge is. Therefore, simple logic dictates that scum are more likely to not read than townies.

As for the second part of your question, this:

Can you provide proof that said person making mistakes is because their of their alignment and lack of reading the thread and not due to any other factor such as level of business or because of an honest mistake?

I can just as easily turn that quote back around on you and ask you to provide proof that said person making mistakes is due to any other factor such as level of business or because of an honest mistake instead of their alignment and lack of reading. The fact is, you can't prove this concretely, as vollkan said already, so your point is therefore null.

As for clarification, vollkan, you assumed that when I said I had used this argument before that it resulted in my catching scum. What I meant was that I had gotten into an argument similar to this one, and people backed me up on this. Solid players. I was taught this tell by Adele I believe, and have since used it in a few of my other games, and it was agreed on by most, if not all players present. So I never actually lynched anyone on account of it, but it has been used and praised in games before.

[kabenon007]

Also, in response to Guardian:
You made the same mistake I did. There are no power roles in this game. I had thought that maybe the reason that (I believe it was JDodge) JDodge wasn't wanting to answer some sort of question was because he was a power role, and I didn't want to say it, lest I be condemned for revealing a power role. But then Mr. Sir Tornado enlightened me to the fact that there were no power roles in this game.

[Guardian]

fos: Mizzy

Mizzy, explain your unvote? Why'd you do it?

I SAID why I unvoted. I spoke with 2 people via daytalk and between those conversations and another full re-read, I felt that the xyzzywagon was bullshit. There was no evidence of scum...

can you quote for me where you said all that explicitly?

, and no, I didn't want to be on a townie lynch because (funny that) lynching townies is anti-town.

Arguing about why I didn't want to be on the wagon lynch (both scum and town have equally valid reasons for not wanting to be on a townie lynch) is terribly WIFOM.

If you thought xyzzy lynch was BS, and you didn't want to lynch a townie (him), then why didn't you vote for someone else before deadline?

kab -- I didn't make the same mistake you did -- I realize there are no PRs. But your explanation makes sense.

Strolling back over day 1 -- Phate seems suspicious day1, too.

{Adel, Mizzy, Phate} are my targets right nwo.

[Xtoxm]

Adel - Leaning scum

Is there a significant amount of communication occurring privately?

Don't like the way she asks this. Think that would be somehting scum would ask.

Also don't like the way she's "masoned" with NN, think it could be scum trying to pair up with a townie.

I disagree with changing the setup midgame, but don't think the request is a scumtell. I can see how a cop being in this game would make it very interesting.

Cicero - Seems to be talking in a similar way to when I was with him in another game and he was town. But he didn't say much and I haven't played with him as scum.

DS - Said little, as usual. Only thing I have to say is i've been in another game with him where he played very scummy as town. So no read.

Gaurdian -

It seems to help scum more than town

How so? I think it's quite useful. Are you trying to discourage town communication?

He has quickly voted 2 people and come off again.

Adel and Phate would prob. be my top 2 atm.

He's attacked Adel quite strongly without voting. Don't know if this could be distancing, cause otherwise him and Adel aren't paired together. I'd be inclined to say not paired...

I see no reason that who is daytalking with whom shouldn't be a matter of public record.

As with Adel, don't like this. Sounds like scum trying to monitor, to me.

Incognito - Seems to be playing similarly as a game where he is almost certainly proven town that i'm in with him.

Don't think Adel is suspicious for pushing to hard on the D1 lynch, but I do think there's a case against Adel.

Think his pushing me for opinions on all players suggests he is town.

Jdodge -

Why do you want people modkilled?

Don't like this - He is changing the words of Incognito.

His overcertainty reminds me of DGB...

Finding it very hard to read him. But from the lentghy argument with volkan i'm pretty sure he and volkan aren't together, so I think he's probably town.

Kab - As i've already said I think he sounds sincere with this latest wagon on him and I think he's town. I'd have acted the same about xyzzy's inactivity.

Mizzy - Attepts to make people active seems genuine and I think this is the type of thing a townie would do, inactivity is bad for town. Suspicions seem genuine.

NN - Seems to be lurking quite a bit, but based on my opnions of Adel I would say he's town. Also think requesting more input from me suggests he is town.

Phate -

Keeping public records of daytalking kind of defeats the purpose of daytalk.

Like this post. Other than that not sure what to make...Think he pushes Kab a bit hard over his participation on a xyzzy wagon D1.

Primate - Should I comment on him? Biased opinion as I replaced him.

Scotmany12 - Makes a valid point in his single post of substance. After that he seems to ignore the game and post only to respond to prods, by looks of it. No read, obviously.

Sir Tornado - Think the pushing Jdodge over the not reading his role is a non-argument. By sounds of it Jdodge did over-react but that doesn't make him scum. Sounds more like an excuse...However what he says about xyzzy seems fair.

Volkan - I think his pushing on Kab in the way he is soemthing scum would do...And I think Kab is town...

On a side note, your posts are far to big. I don't have the energy to wade through them.

So my initial idea is an Adel, Guardian, Volkan...This is probably liekly to change as I get a feel for the game, rather than just based on isolating everyone's posts.

[Xtoxm]

Just realised Scotmany12 is dead.

[vollkan]

As for clarification, vollkan, you assumed that when I said I had used this argument before that it resulted in my catching scum. What I meant was that I had gotten into an argument similar to this one, and people backed me up on this. Solid players. I was taught this tell by Adele I believe, and have since used it in a few of my other games, and it was agreed on by most, if not all players present. So I never actually lynched anyone on account of it, but it has been used and praised in games before.

And the statistical evidence?

Volkan - I think his pushing on Kab in the way he is soemthing scum would do...And I think Kab is town...

You state two views here:
1) My pushing kab is something scum would do
2) Kab is town

I would like an explanation of both, thanks.

[Xtoxm]

2) is the explanation of 1) and 2) is explained further up.

[vollkan]

Sorry, but:

Kab - As i've already said I think he sounds sincere with this latest wagon on him and I think he's town. I'd have acted the same about xyzzy's inactivity.

Doesn't explain anything to me.

You're basically saying:
1) I think kab is town and genuine [unexplained]
2) I think voll attacking kab is something scum would do [unexplained]

Let me make my questions a bit clearer for you:
-Why do you think Kab is town?
-Even if you do think Kab is town, why does that make me scum for attacking him? Are you just assuming that I must be scum for attacking someone you think is town, or is there something about my attacks that you don't like?

[kabenon007]

Got me on the mind or something, vollkan? You misquoted Xtoxm as me.

[vollkan]

I made a mistake. I must be scum.

[kabenon007]

I knew it.

[Mizzy]

can you quote for me where you said all that explicitly?

Here's the posts that say or hint to the reasons I unvoted:

Unvote because I'm doing some, you know, talking? And I may have some questions soon. I don't want a lynch just yet.

I think people, well most of us, were wagoning just to get information...I wouldn't have been terribly impressed with an actual random lynch.

I was doing some talking with at two people about the xyzzywagon and a third about Adel and JDodge...one of which I outed later as being Volkan. I also spoke with both Phate and Primate.

I had questions to ask of a couple folks, the ones I contacted, and actually spoke at length with Primate about the upcoming xyzzy lynch...it was pretty obvious by that point that it was happening.

I didn't want a lynch because I was pretty undecided at that point who a good lynch would be. I, as I admitted previously (same page as the unvote, in fact), was not getting much info from the thread and had trouble getting anyone to daytalk with me. I had very, very precious little to go on.

If you thought xyzzy lynch was BS, and you didn't want to lynch a townie (him), then why didn't you vote for someone else before deadline?

I had no idea at that point who was scum, and a quick meta on me will tell you that I am a very cautious player...I vote when I am okay with that person being dead. I don't vote until that point. The wagon was already going to cause a lynch...my voting someone else wasn't going to help that.

To those interested:

I have logs of the conversations I have had with Phate, Volkan, and Primate, complete with date and time stamps. I can share them, in private, with anyone who IMs me and asks, but I cannot quote them here.

Mod,

if this isn't okay for me to do (share quotes in private) please let me know and I won't do it.

[Guardian]

Yeah, Oman, Rule 10 is dumb. Quoting other players should be allowed, Mizzy should be able to quote anything she wants.

That being said, I don't buy your response to the second part. If you voted Adel, Adel & xyzzy would have been equal. Instead, you did nothing, and let xyzzy be lynched. I don't see a townie doing that, and combined with your defense (call it attacking kab's arguments if you want, it IS a defense) of vollkan today that seems like possible buddying, I think you deserve my vote.

I want to hear more from Phate, though. Adel is 3rd for me.

vote: Mizzy

[Mizzy]

That being said, I don't buy your response to the second part. If you voted Adel, Adel & xyzzy would have been equal. Instead, you did nothing, and let xyzzy be lynched.

Can you stop being a dumbass and

READ THE RULES

?

[05] If I impose a day deadline (which I will be very likely to do if a day lasts over an unreasonable point of time or discussion lags), the player with the most votes will be lynched.

In case of a tie, first come, first served.

In case of an endgame (six players or fewer) only simply majority lynches will occur.

There would have been a tie, yes, and xyzzy

would have been lynched anyway

.

[Guardian]

So you knew that no one else was going to vote Adel?

You knew that, for certain, at the time you unvoted and chose not to vote anyone else? And it wasn't worth putting Adel closer, since there was no chance of anyone besides xyzzy being lynched?

That's amazing.

[Mizzy]

So you knew that no one else was going to vote Adel?

You knew that, for certain, at the time you unvoted and chose not to vote anyone else? And it wasn't worth putting Adel closer, since there was no chance of anyone besides xyzzy being lynched?

That's amazing.

Wait, so you're suggesting that I should not vote to lynch one person whom I was not convinced was scum in favor of someone

else

I was not convinced was scum? I didn't support the lynch of ANYone at that time, because even after daytalking, I had no real notion of who was scum.

I would seriously appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth...that's scummy as hell.

I had no way of knowing for sure that Adel would not get another vote, and never said I did. However, after talking with 3 people and chatting in the thread, I was pretty sure we weren't going to have a real lynch and I sure as hell wasn't going to vote with no evidence that anyone was scum.

While you're pressuring me about my apparently scummy-as-hell unvote to not partake the lynch of someone I didn't think should be lynched, why don't you get on Phate's case, because he voted a totally useless vote and he could have tied things, too. In fact, scotmany didn't even bother PLAYING, and could have helped. Primate wasn't voting, either. So why am I getting all of the flack from you for a crappy case with no foundation?

[vollkan]

While you're pressuring me about my apparently scummy-as-hell unvote to not partake the lynch of someone I didn't think should be lynched, why don't you get on Phate's case, because he voted a totally useless vote and he could have tied things, too. In fact, scotmany didn't even bother PLAYING, and could have helped. Primate wasn't voting, either. So why am I getting all of the flack from you for a crappy case with no foundation?

Guardian, you might also note that I also unvoted without casting a vote elsewhere. I didn't think any lynch was valid - nobody was scummy enough to justify a lynch, and an effectively 'random' lynch would achieve very little

[Adel]

read this newbie game if you want to see Mizzy play as town

unvote, vote Mizzy

with me if you want to lynch her as scum.

[Guardian]

Vollkan: Mizzy unvoted later. She both unvoted in closer proximity to deadline -- and after you did so. Her protection/buttering to you is a main pillar of my suspicion. So imo finding her suspicious over you is very legitimate. I could see you two being scum together, I could see her being scum and you not, I'm not really sure I could see you scum and her not.

Mizzy: note that I am on Phate's case. He was my first vote after replacing in, and still, no one has wanted to comment at all about him being scummy. I find that infuriating, but just sitting there would breed stagnation, so I'm considering other suspects.

Primate's post near the end of day 1 was his last post in the game, I'm hesitant to characterized him as anything other than bored. But I'll look into him/Xtoxm.

scotmany is dead.

So Mizzy, I don't see how I am being inconsistent at all in voting you for that unvote.

[JDodge]

read this newbie game if you want to see Mizzy play as town

unvote, vote Mizzy

with me if you want to lynch her as scum.

I've seen Mizzy play like this as town before (can't reference, ongoing).

[Mizzy]

Vollkan: Mizzy unvoted later. She both unvoted in closer proximity to deadline -- and after you did so. Her protection/buttering to you is a main pillar of my suspicion. So imo finding her suspicious over you is very legitimate. I could see you two being scum together, I could see her being scum and you not, I'm not really sure I could see you scum and her not.

Mizzy: note that I am on Phate's case. He was my first vote after replacing in, and still, no one has wanted to comment at all about him being scummy. I find that infuriating, but just sitting there would breed stagnation, so I'm considering other suspects.

Primate's post near the end of day 1 was his last post in the game, I'm hesitant to characterized him as anything other than bored. But I'll look into him/Xtoxm.

scotmany is dead.

So Mizzy, I don't see how I am being inconsistent at all in voting you for that unvote.

My point in mentioning others is that a) I had recently replaced in, b) there was so little information that I didn't feel comfortable going to D2 with any votes out there, and c) I'm not the only one who didn't have a vote out. I still fail to see how you could continue to keep this WIFOM case in your mind as justified.