Mini 508- Trouble in New Catania-Game Over

[Setael]

I am not a roleblocker.

[Lowell]

I AM...

not a role blocker.

[Claus]

I'm not a roleblocker.

And I think that if we actually HAD a roleblocker who managed to block mafia, or a cop with a guilty, they should just come up and tell us, because that would end the game. I find this semi-mass-claim kinda silly.

If we have a cop with at least 3 living innocents, they should come forward also - specially if those innocents are some of the less readable players. Yeah, I'm not a cop either.

I'm pretty sure that Thesp is town. Ythills reasons (bussing two partners) sums it up well, but I was already starting to have this Thesp-town feeling when I realized that I was wrong about S2.

I'm also fairly sure about S2's townhood.

I want to see more of Setael.

Ythill is funny. My gut says he is town, my paranoia says that he bussed RW and tried to use that to kill lowell yesterday (if lowell is town).

I think we need to lynch lowell today. Because of yesternight, we got a free myslinch (we are 2 myslinches from lylo now) we should use that to clear lowell.

Oh, and this is probably my last post on this thread until wednesday. Take care everyone.

[Ythill]

Ythill is funny... my paranoia says that he bussed RW and tried to use that to kill lowell yesterday (if lowell is town).

Let me ease your paranoia. I came into this thread explicity suspecting RW, Thok, and Lowell. My main reason for attacking Lowell rather than Thok yesterday was to play devil's advocate and keep conversation going for awhile. When conversation lagged, I got on the Thok wagon. If we had lynched Lowell and he had come up town, I would have backed my scum-self into a corner and would have had to pull some pretty risky position changes to avoid lynching Thok today.

I plan on looking more deeply into Thok's posts very soon, but what sticks in my mind is the way he repeatedly advised town that Lowell was a VI and shouldn't be lynched even though, by that point, suspicion of Lowell had died off. Those sound like the words of a concerned scumbuddy.

...tried to use that to kill lowell yesterday (if lowell is town).

I think we need to lynch lowell today. Because of yesternight, we got a free myslinch (we are 2 myslinches from lylo now) we should use that to clear lowell.

The wording here is odd and suggests that Claus knows Lowell to be town. I'm not very suspicious of Claus at the moment, but this raises my hackles.

If we have a cop with at least 3 living innocents, they should come forward also...

I am not experienced enough to know if this suggestion is the right play, but I'm starting to believe that a cop with any innocent reads (on living players) should come forward. It seems to me that those reads would be on S2 or Lowell... possibly on Seta, Claus, or myslef and that, knowing these reads, process of elimination would allow us to hang scum before LYLO.

I say this because we are way ahead and the time is ripe to put pressure on scum. They will be in a position where killing the cop is crucial (since not many investigations are left) but where he is most likely doc protected and, even if he isn't, his death confirms several townies.

If no cop comes out today, we should hang Lowell. If Lowell is town, a cop should investigate S2 or Seta tonight and then reveal himself tomorrow. I really think this game is in the bag. Way to go town.

[Setael]

I agree that this game seems like an easy win for town. I don't like Ythill telling the cop who to investigate, but at this point the cop's had a few investigations and Thesp is practically confirmed town by his play since replacing in, so that doesn't leave many options anyway.

vote: Lowell

[Ythill]

I don't like Ythill telling the cop who to investigate...

Just suggestions, dear. Remember that IMO, if Lowell comes up town either you or S2 is scum. I'd love to have a cop result on one of you in that case and if the cop doesn't already have one (which is doubtful) then I

suggest

he get one.

Thesp is practically confirmed town by his play since replacing in...

I was discussing scum strategy with somebody yesterday and Thesp's play in this game came up. I don't think he is scum but, if he is, we're wrong about town having this game in the bag. If everything starts going sour here I'm going to be taking a very close look at Thesp. For now though, I agree with you.

@ Lowell: You are at L-1 and have been itching to claim anyway so... what's your role?

[Lowell]

Should I claim even if I'm at L-1 for retarded or non-existent reasons?

[Thesp]

Yes.

[Ythill]

I'm assuming my reasons are the retarded ones, since they do exist. If you can raise a defense, do it. But in the meanwhile... yes, either claim or explicitly refuse to.

[Thesp]

Lowell, claim or die.

[Lowell]

I'm a townie.

Before some idiot hammers me, explain to me what I've done to make you think I'm scum.

[Ythill]

No problem Lowell.

The summary of your play in my notes, quoted in entirety, reads:

Seems scummy early. Lurky. Sarcastic defenses. Overall playstyle is scummy; very little hunting. Vote swap at deadline seems pro-town. Votes kurbio without reason

after

his claim. Continues voting without reasons or by following.

You were on the wagons of kurbio, Vaugn, and S2. Regarding kurbio, you unvoted, giving a town read, then attacked him when he suspected you, then voted him after his claim, then you jumped back off when it was apparent the mislynch was going nowhere.

Regarding Vaugn, he was the place your vote kept settling between hops but you never gave believable reasons for that vote.

Regarding S2, you didn’t seem to suspect him until LML dropped off to bus you, then you attacked S2 (and others) heavily and soon thereafter jumped on his wagon. From there you were an ardent supporter of S2’s lynch (#180 was particularly scummy) and the most stubborn player in considering “The Slip” a scumtell. This continues until you jump off, explaining shortly thereafter (while jumping back on) that you only unvoted because the S2 wagon lacked steam. Next you give a town read on S2, but then, as soon as you are attacked, you vote for him again.

You have been repeatedly attacked. Many of the accusations were valid but your defenses, where they existed at all, have been less than sufficient. The level of OMGUS in your play is very telling.

D_O/RW made that voteless push at your L-1 wagon and then heavily manipulated the town to turn away from you. You and he cooperated on the kurbio and Vaugn wagons (kurbio after his claim).

LML/DGB/Thok busses you early (and I don’t blame him) and pushes your wagon heavily at L-1 with no deadline (this serves as bussing you

and

distancing from D_O/RW). Thok replaces to do some damage control, repeating an underhanded defense of you (calling you the VI) though nobody is attacking you. Though he has no reason to clear you other than his belief that you are stupid (which I don’t agree with), he lists you as town (not neutral) in #368 where he also defends you quietly under the premise of attacking kurbio.

[Ythill]

PS: I posted a lot of this in #490 (see below) but you didn't respond to it then.

Lowell: Should have been lynched D1. He follows people, vote hops, refuses to explain his actions, hunts little (and vaguley when he does), and attacks when he should be defending. You know, letting people get away with this sort of thing sets a bad precedent. His posts seem empty in a calculating way, and they are too perceptive to be the work of a VI. There is one saving-grace towntell, but it could just as easily be the WIFOMy act of scum trying to redeem himself on D2.

PE#2.

[Lowell]

I'll concede I've hunted little this game. In mafiascum, sometimes you feel like you're in control and have a good read on things. In other games, not so much.

Still, this case against me looks weak, at best. Votehopping (especially early in the game) is not a legitimate reason. You're WIFOMing yourself into believng I'm scum. Sometimes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's just a damn duck. Look elsewhere.

[Thesp]

I'll concede I've hunted little this game. In mafiascum, sometimes you feel like you're in control and have a good read on things. In other games, not so much.

Still, this case against me looks weak, at best. Votehopping (especially early in the game) is not a legitimate reason. You're WIFOMing yourself into believng I'm scum. Sometimes, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's just a damn duck. Look elsewhere.

Who do you think is scum? Why?

[Ythill]

Votehopping (especially early in the game) is not a legitimate reason.

It is not the vote-hopping itself, but the timing of it that I find scummy.

You're WIFOMing yourself into believng I'm scum.

When I first joined this site, I read in Mafia Discussion that "WIFOM" was the argument most often stated incorrectly by those who couldn't come up with a good argument. In this case, I agree.

How is pointing out your OMGUS WIFOM? How is pointing out that you have been on all the major wagons (two of which were confirmed town) WIFOM? How is pointing out that you and another scum were the only two to vote for kurbio after his claim WIFOM?

These lazy defenses are working against you Lowell and, if you

are

town, they are working against the town as well.

[Claus]

Ythill is funny... my paranoia says that

Let me ease your paranoia. I came into this thread explicity suspecting RW, Thok, and Lowell. My main reason for attacking Lowell rather than Thok yesterday was to play devil's advocate and keep conversation going for awhile.

Okay. That makes sense.

The wording here is odd and suggests that Claus knows Lowell to be town. I'm not very suspicious of Claus at the moment, but this raises my hackles.

I'm afraid I cannot ease you on your fears.

I'm sure Thesp is not scum - two strong busses plus S2 defense. I pretty sure S2 is not - scum hunting plus good answers to pressure. I think you are not - scum hunting minus latent paranoia. I feel Setael is not - playstyle. I can't read lowell. That's my game list.

However, I also don't have a *REASON* to say "Lowel is certain scum, lolz" - mind you, I find your reasons to be real good, and probably on the spot, but I have not had the time to double-check them, so I can't honestly say I'm voting for your reasons either.

So, why vote lowell, if I'm so unsure? Well, my vote has a reason - I'm voting lowell because I don't believe the OTHERS to be scum. I fully back my vote and my participation on the lynch - but I have no illusion that there is good chance I'm wrong.

[Lowell]

I didn't notice this about Ythill before. Let's go with that.

vote ythill

[Ythill]

@ Lowell: Claus provides a town read on me and you agree with it as a reason to vote me? Please explain.

I can fathom one case for Lowell being town. Thok hammered himself, claiming that his play this game had been poor. He did that

after

I'd made several statements about Thok and Lowell being scumbuddies. I'm assuming that a scum self-hammer is used in the same way as a town scum claim, to freeze the thread with certain evidence apparent. Why would Thok want to punctuate the belief that his buddy is scum?

I'd like others to post any doubts they have about Lowell-as-mafia. If he won't defend himself, maybe we can puzzle this out in spite of him.

I am a tad more suspicious of Seta who has finally forsaken her single-minded campaign against S2 to vote Lowell. Seta, could you extrapolate on your case against Lowell?

I'm leaving my vote because, in spite of all this second-guessing, I still believe Lowell to be the most suspicious. That, and we can afford the mislynch if we are wrong. Knowing his alignment, either way, will provide a good amount of insight into the D1 wagon on him.

[Lowell]

1) Knowing my alignment won't do much for solving a D1 wagon. D1 wagons never make any sense.

2) The "case" against me, as far as I can tell, is STILL just "he contributes less than others." This just isn't a good reason.

3) Post 579 is awful. I'll buy the S2 as scum theory as well.

4) Sorry, I cherry-picked what claus said. What I'm more focused on was your defense of Thok over me yesterday. The best way to find out who is scum is to see what happens when, at the end of a day, a scum is up against a do-nothing townie for lynch. I think there's a lot more to be gleaned from how that lynch went down. He may have thought a protracted lynch battle might expose another scum.

[Ythill]

Knowing my alignment won't do much for solving a D1 wagon. D1 wagons never make any sense.

I disagree wholeheartedly. At the very least, it will give us insight into the psychology of our confirmed scum and provide us with sympathy of your OMGUS. That’s

if

you’re town, which I don’t believe you are.

The "case" against me, as far as I can tell, is STILL just "he contributes less than others." This just isn't a good reason.

You are glazing over a lot of stuff and dodging the chance to defend. Again. Let’s assume for a moment that I am scum and you are town. If you are mislynched today with defenses as they stand, others will look at my case and determine that I had valid reasons for suspecting you. If you can defend against my accusations, me driving your wagon looks rightfully scummy. How on earth is it pro-town for you to be dodgy here?

Please try to defend yourself. If it helps, I’ll consolidate my most telling arguments against you.

Post 579 is awful. I'll buy the S2 as scum theory as well.

Just to clarify, are you saying that your suspicions include me (citing your vote), Seta, and S2? Is there an order of preference?

Sorry, I cherry-picked what claus said. What I'm more focused on was your defense of Thok over me yesterday. The best way to find out who is scum is to see what happens when, at the end of a day, a scum is up against a do-nothing townie for lynch.

I see what you mean here. It still seems odd that Yth-scum would enter the thread with suspicions on only three people, two of whom are his buddies. Nor does your theory include me pushing the RW lynch.

I think there's a lot more to be gleaned from how that lynch went down. He may have thought a protracted lynch battle might expose another scum.

Good point. We’ve all kind of glazed over it. I’ll check it out more closely.

[Lowell]

The "psychology" of scum is to try to lynch people who aren't them.

There, I saved us a lynch.

[Ythill]

The "psychology" of scum is to try to lynch people who aren't them.

Thanks for stating your opinion.

Please explain why D_O didn't hammer you in #115 or #124. Also please explain why he started arguing against your lynch in #124 and #136.

[TheStranger]

Hey, I'll be replacing somone2. I'll read up asap.

Just a note that this is official-

Mod.

[Lowell]

The "psychology" of scum is to try to lynch people who aren't them.

Thanks for stating your opinion.

Please explain why D_O didn't hammer you in #115 or #124. Also please explain why he started arguing against your lynch in #124 and #136.

1) Because he didnt' want to be the guy who hammered a townie!!

2) Scumplay 101. Find a townie who isn't paying much attention, rush to his defense at his hour of need. Earn his praise and avoid his wrath.

I don't understand the question. He's arguing against my lynch because he knows I'm not scum. Imagine, if we're both scum, how he's going to look if I AM lynched (as he likely expected to happen).