Mini 546: House Mafia - Game Over
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Erg0 Mafia Scum
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I suppose that TG's comment didn't technically fall into twilight, but it did remind me of my usual policy of disregarding almost anything said between the lynch and the night scene. I'd kind of let that slide due to the whole nightless thing, but I think it's as valid here as it is in any other game."You were doing well until everyone died."
V/LA most weekends.-
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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It was pointing out that your headdesk argument sucked, seems relevant.Near wrote:How is that relevant? It's not.
But, OK, my headdesk argument sucked.
Near, your "outburst" of emotion following the TG lynch was one of the scummiest things I have seen in my breif time on MS. I have more against you but lack the time right now to put a case together. I will get that up in the next day or so.
Also CKD and Erg0 going to give reasons, or just waiting for reactions from the rest of the staff?-
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Erg0 Mafia Scum
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Near Mafia Scum
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Yes, I got emotional. Do I think my posting that I wish I can take my vote back immediately after the hammer would make me less scummy? No. I knew that my doing so would make people to become suspicious of me. At the same time, I don't believe it is the scummiest thing you've ever seen. I can imagine someone else regretting immediately after hammering someone, before knowing the alignment of the person lynched. And I am sure this has happened before (although I am new so I haven't seen it). And if it hasn't happened frequently, my guess is it's because the person hammering was afraid of getting the suspicion for exactly what you are accusing me of.shaft.ed wrote:
Near, your "outburst" of emotion following the TG lynch was one of the scummiest things I have seen in my breif time on MS. I have more against you but lack the time right now to put a case together. I will get that up in the next day or so.-
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Erg0 Mafia Scum
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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this is true and it is scummy...and my vote might end up here..but right now..it is good where it is.shaft.ed wrote:
I personally don't think you can compare the two. Near was upset about it BEFORE TG's alignment was even revealed. That's the difference.Erg0 wrote:Day 1 has reminded me of the folly of attempting to use post-hammer reactions as scumtells. TG's sudden turnaround after the Beep! lynch looked bad to me, and he came up town.
I plan on it..just letting it ride for the moment though.shaft.ed wrote:
Also CKD and Erg0 going to give reasons, or just waiting for reactions from the rest of the staff?NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE-
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Near Mafia Scum
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Hmm. A question no one asked before. I haven't thought about it.Erg0 wrote:I have to ask one thing: if you knew it would make you look scummy, why did you post it?
If I have to make a guess, maybe I wanted people to know how I felt. If TG turned scum, then I did a good job so my posting that I want to take my vote back would make me look less smart but this would not bother me as much as TG turning town and me having to take most of the blame?-
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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vollkan The Interrogator
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I think you mean post #787.N wrote: But, OK, my headdesk argument sucked. And I was wrong about random voting by Erg0 and CDK. But read my post 780.
As I said, 1 is valid evidence of a link. 2 is pure conspiracy and I cannot accept it. 3 is also valid evidence of distancing. This really looks a lot like you just deflecting culpability for your vote onto someone that attacked you for your vote.shaft.ed wrote: Everything lines up well, if shaft.ed is a mafia.
1. armlx says: ""One scum wont vote for the other even when he's digging his own grave, but tries to look suspicious of him to distance himself. How cute. " then votes for shaft.ed" Also associates Jive with shaft.ed, which makes this theory more believable because we think armlx was trying to lynch Jive along with shaft.ed, his scum partner.
2. Shaft.ed's famous post at 183. Really, don't you guys think it's more likely that shaft.ed made up the story for his failure to discern random adel's random bandwagon-ing AFTER he was accused?
3. the fact that armlx was so stubborn to accept shaft.ed's very persuasive post (at laest, everyone else thought so)
4. the fact that he foreshadowed TG turning town and used that to frame me. i doubt that a townie can say such a thing.
So, you basically said it for the purpose of reducing your own culpability?N wrote:
If I have to make a guess, maybe I wanted people to know how I felt. If TG turned scum, then I did a good job so my posting that I want to take my vote back would make me look less smart but this would not bother me as much as TG turning town and me having to take most of the blame?-
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Near Mafia Scum
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Near Mafia Scum
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Let me think about that.vollkan wrote:
As I said, 1 is valid evidence of a link. 2 is pure conspiracy and I cannot accept it. 3 is also valid evidence of distancing. This really looks a lot like you just deflecting culpability for your vote onto someone that attacked you for your vote.
No, I don't think so. Yes, I felt bad after TG's mislynch, but I am not so immature (contrary to what everyone else seems to think) as to try to find someone to blame so people would more easily forget my mistake.
Even if you think 2 above is pure conspiracy(which I disagree with you and I think I know why), don't 1 and 3 give you some kind of suspicion that shaft.ed is a scum?-
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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Near Mafia Scum
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Because sometimes I act without thinking, don't you ever do that.shaft.ed wrote:Only your guess? Why do you have to guess what the purpose of your own actions are? And you're the one accusing me of making up reasons after the fact.
At least I didn't try to make up a fake reasons to try to cover myself.-
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vollkan The Interrogator
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It isn't a question of immaturity. You cocked up badly (no matter what your alignment) and so you turned around and tried to pull arguments against an accuser. "Poor little me. I made an oopsie-daisy and now all the bad scum are picking on me."N wrote: No, I don't think so. Yes, I felt bad after TG's mislynch, but I am not so immature (contrary to what everyone else seems to think) as to try to find someone to blame so people would more easily forget my mistake.
Explain to me why 2 is not conspiracy.N wrote: Even if you think 2 above is pure conspiracy(which I disagree with you and I think I know why), don't 1 and 3 give you some kind of suspicion that shaft.ed is a scum?
Yes, 1 and 3 are good evidence against shaft.ed. They aren't enough though.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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Erg0 Mafia Scum
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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Near Mafia Scum
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I really don't think so. Yes, if I were you, I would have thought that what you are saying is likely, but it's not. It's because you think my evidences suck/not enough whatever - he still feels scummy to me.vollkan wrote:
It isn't a question of immaturity. You cocked up badly (no matter what your alignment) and so you turned around and tried to pull arguments against an accuser. "Poor little me. I made an oopsie-daisy and now all the bad scum are picking on me."
Can I ask other people to help me answer this? because I am not sure, I wrote down a paragraph, but it doesn't make sense to me. Yet, I still feel like I am right. anyone?vollkan wrote: Explain to me why 2 is not conspiracy.-
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Near Mafia Scum
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OK. Let me try again.vollkan wrote: Explain to me why 2 is not conspiracy.
According to your argument, if you really wanted to discern between 2 & 3, shouldn't you have "voted for the wagoner" and see if she counterattacks you?shafted wrote: I've actually never played in a game with unabashed bandwagon hopping to the extreme that Adel was using. The times I have seen heavy bandwagoning it has been either from scum or from townies that end up outing power roles, so I don't like it. The uses of heavy bandwagoning in my experience are 1) to pressure a player into a poor response thus building a case on them [usually scum], 2) to counterattack players who vote the wagoner [generally from scum] or 3) simply to generate discussion and latch onto "odd" reactions to the wagon. Since Adel was jumping off wagons before they could get going I knew it wasn't #1.So I wanted to see how she would react to some votes being added to her in order to discern between 2 & 3.She didn't heavily attack me or CKD for our votes and she did point out JiveMachines discrepency, this lead me to believe she was motivated to move the game out of random and generate some useful leads. My post saying as such was obviously lazy and incorrect.
How Adel will respond to your votes on her and how that depends on her alignment are not at all covered by any of your premises.
Shaft.ed argument sounds so logical, yet it has a flaw. I admit I didn't notice this before until now, but maybe this is where "feel" and "hunch" didn't let me accept the alternative conclusion.-
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vollkan The Interrogator
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Er...that's the very thing he was addressing.shaft.ed wrote: According to your argument, if you really wanted to discern between 2 & 3, shouldn't you have "voted for the wagoner" and see if she counterattacks you?
How Adel will respond to your votes on her and how that depends on her alignment are not at all covered by any of your premises.
Shaft.ed argument sounds so logical, yet it has a flaw. I admit I didn't notice this before until now, but maybe this is where "feel" and "hunch" didn't let me accept the alternative conclusion.
He said:
1) pressure player into poor response and contrive case = [LIKELY SCUM]
2) Counterattack waggoners = [LIKELY SCUM]
3) Generate discussion = [LEANS TOWN]
The fact Adel was quickly jumping ruled out 1.
Then he says that the fact she did not attack himself or CKD ruled out 2, thus leading him to 3. I don't know how you get that his premises don't cover it - if Adel does not attack back, then 2) is invalid.
There is the possibility of a falsetrichotomy here, and I personally think 3) may be closer to a null-tell, but the logic itself is not flawed.-
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shaft.ed dem.agogue
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Am I the only one that is starting to view this thread as some weird debate between Young Student Vollkan and Wise Tutor Vollkan? It's weird seeing one person mentor himself.
And yes "generate discussion" can be a null tell, but I see it as a slightly town tell since some scum on average don't like to draw attention with such play.
Oh and your quote tags are wrong Near said that not me.-
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curiouskarmadog This Space for Rant
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Erg0 Mafia Scum
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vollkan The Interrogator
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It's really bizarre His writing style is like mine and he purloined my avatar.shaft.ed wrote: Am I the only one that is starting to view this thread as some weird debate between Young Student Vollkan and Wise Tutor Vollkan? It's weird seeing one person mentor himself.
Oopsshaft.ed wrote: Oh and your quote tags are wrong Near said that not me.
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