Mafia 75: Return of the Mafia! TOWN WINS (really late)


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Post Post #775 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:31 am

Post by Antithesis »

You are being ridiculous. If you think arguments made are weak, then maybe you should consider looking at those PUSHING THE WEAK ARGUMENTS? -.-
This is a slightly different but related issue.

It strikes me that some are simply wagoning or posting to post, to seem active without doing anything at all.

My natural inclination is to think that this is scummy, but there are too many people doing it. To bring it home, so to speak, I cannot discern between people who are doing it because they are naive, against those who are doing it because its in their interests to do so. The only people who should be interested in playing this way, by page 30, are scum.

That isn't a scientific fact, but it is a fairly well followed rule of thumb here that even I managed to pick up, somehow.

Maybe I should do a metaread on everyone.
"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it."

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Post Post #776 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:34 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Nemesis, deadlines can be retracted..deadlines force choices and BWs, much can be learned from this, right now, all we have are scraps of scumminess that people jump on until someone else does something slightly scummy. We are going to keep going around in circles until something really sticks out. I think a deadline will do just that. Force people to start scum hunting and stop lurking (or at least answer for their lurking)...force scum to act, hopefully they will trip up in the process. If conversation is heated, I would expect that Mod to delay the deadline, espeically in a game this size..deadlines are not bad. Nemesis, what had the conversation dwiddled to before I asked for a deadline? Answer me that, then tell me why asking for a deadline was anti-town again? Look how much conversation has spun off that alone. If I was trying to hide the fact I wanted the deadline, why did I say it in game, versus just PMing the mod for one?
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE
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Post Post #777 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:44 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

In the event of a deadline, you will still have 2 full weeks to get half the amount required for a lynch.
Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards.
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Post Post #778 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:03 am

Post by dahill1 »

antithesis--that was my fault. i believe someone said that in another game i'm in and mixed it up. sorry!
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Post Post #779 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:07 am

Post by dahill1 »

EBWOP: now i'm re-reading my post and i see that it was my response to Post 765
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Post Post #780 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:26 am

Post by Antithesis »

No it was my fault, I scrolled over the post you were referring to and I thought you were speaking to me. Again, my apologies.
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Post Post #781 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 8:58 am

Post by VanDamien »

Antithesis wrote: Oh, I dunno, I may get around to making a case on someone when I feel pretty certain they are scum. Of course, my waiting isn't stopping you from doing the same, whenever you feel ready.
UR DOING IT WRONG.

But okay, I'll bite.
Antithesis, on Feb 5 wrote:I think that is part of the problem I have with the current crop of 'suspects'. People seem more than happy to drop a vote on someone, but I have yet to see anyone actually push for/ make a case against anyone so far. Everything to this point strikes me merely as a vote of convenience.
Antithesis, on Mar 8 wrote:I am waiting for someone to make a rational, well thought case against someone else. So far, all I have seen is copious amounts of 'I think you are scummy for miniscule reason X' sort of posts and a bunch of wagon hopping. To wit I can make neither heads nor tails of where a majority of people stand.

That, plus I think it is entirely possible scum might be encouraging this behavior so as to make it easier for them to hide behind this monolithic wall of inane nonsense.
So, at least you've been consistently looking for the easy wagon for over a month. This is day one. Let me say it again - THIS IS DAY ONE. Even with a night behind us, the entire purpose of today is to develop and look for the small reactions, the tiny links, the things that do not become obvious until a couple of days are behind us. Waiting for the case to be made, so you can get behind it is not scumhunting. In fact, it's what scum often do. There SHOULD be lots of votes thrown around, and lots of wagon-shifts today. This is not a problem, this is a good thing.
Antithesis wrote:I am suspicious of everyone.

Aside from that, there is one person in particular I am watching at the moment, but I'd rather not say their name, at least, just yet.
This was almost a month ago. Who was it, and how do you feel about them now? You know what, it doesn't really matter, because this is the type of post I've seen that when a strong wagon begins to go you can point back at this, whomever it is, and claim you've been watching them.
Antithesis wrote:"And a claimed Miller shall lead them..."

Chapter 8, verse 12, from the Book of What the **** is this ****!
Ooh, here's one of those minor things you love so much. Why "them" and not "us"?
Antithesis wrote:What bothers me is the Cult.

Lets assume that they aren't dead, that there is a recruiter and a cult leader, as some Cults have.
Are you suggesting that if, in fact, the cult began with a leader and a separate recruiter, that both can recruit? Otherwise, why are you worried about them? The recruiter is the one who is dead.

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vote: Antithesis
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Post Post #782 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:23 am

Post by Battle Mage »

VanDamien wrote:
Antithesis wrote: Oh, I dunno, I may get around to making a case on someone when I feel pretty certain they are scum. Of course, my waiting isn't stopping you from doing the same, whenever you feel ready.
UR DOING IT WRONG.

But okay, I'll bite.
Antithesis, on Feb 5 wrote:I think that is part of the problem I have with the current crop of 'suspects'. People seem more than happy to drop a vote on someone, but I have yet to see anyone actually push for/ make a case against anyone so far. Everything to this point strikes me merely as a vote of convenience.
Antithesis, on Mar 8 wrote:I am waiting for someone to make a rational, well thought case against someone else. So far, all I have seen is copious amounts of 'I think you are scummy for miniscule reason X' sort of posts and a bunch of wagon hopping. To wit I can make neither heads nor tails of where a majority of people stand.

That, plus I think it is entirely possible scum might be encouraging this behavior so as to make it easier for them to hide behind this monolithic wall of inane nonsense.
So, at least you've been consistently looking for the easy wagon for over a month. This is day one. Let me say it again - THIS IS DAY ONE. Even with a night behind us, the entire purpose of today is to develop and look for the small reactions, the tiny links, the things that do not become obvious until a couple of days are behind us. Waiting for the case to be made, so you can get behind it is not scumhunting. In fact, it's what scum often do. There SHOULD be lots of votes thrown around, and lots of wagon-shifts today. This is not a problem, this is a good thing.
Antithesis wrote:I am suspicious of everyone.

Aside from that, there is one person in particular I am watching at the moment, but I'd rather not say their name, at least, just yet.
This was almost a month ago. Who was it, and how do you feel about them now? You know what, it doesn't really matter, because this is the type of post I've seen that when a strong wagon begins to go you can point back at this, whomever it is, and claim you've been watching them.
Antithesis wrote:"And a claimed Miller shall lead them..."

Chapter 8, verse 12, from the Book of What the **** is this ****!
Ooh, here's one of those minor things you love so much. Why "them" and not "us"?
Antithesis wrote:What bothers me is the Cult.

Lets assume that they aren't dead, that there is a recruiter and a cult leader, as some Cults have.
Are you suggesting that if, in fact, the cult began with a leader and a separate recruiter, that both can recruit? Otherwise, why are you worried about them? The recruiter is the one who is dead.

unvote
vote: Antithesis
some of the logic here is shocking. You're
reaching
for the stars here, quite literally here. Even so, i think the vote is a sound one, so i wont complain at this point.

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Post Post #783 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:46 am

Post by Antithesis »

So, at least you've been consistently looking for the easy wagon for over a month.
No, I've been looking to lynch scum. Maybe you have other motives that you want to ascribe to people, but I fail to see what is so difficult to understand about a townie wanting to lynch scun, and expressing his (I should say mine) exasperation at the fact that I find wagon jumping to be scummy, such that if a multitude of people engage in it, it confuses me to no end.
Even with a night behind us, the entire purpose of today is to develop and look for the small reactions, the tiny links, the things that do not become obvious until a couple of days are behind us. Waiting for the case to be made, so you can get behind it is not scumhunting.
Again, you misunderstand. I am quite willing to make cases on my own, that is, if there were more to go on than Person A votes for person B, then C, Then D, and person B votes on person A, then C, and Person D votes on person X, then A, and person X then votes on....
This is exactlky what was going on, but add to that, few people were actually trying to justify their votes. Now, I am sure you didn't sleep through all of this, so you must have seen it as well. I'll admit you have taken the trouble to address some of my points here, which means you are at least trying to justify your vote. I'd cheer you on, if it weren't for the fact that you either are purposefully trying to twist what I say (scumtell) or you refuse to recognize the point as being valid.

So I will ask. Which is it. Were people not jumping around on random wagons with little to no reason given, or did I just imagine it?

There SHOULD be lots of votes thrown around, and lots of wagon-shifts today. This is not a problem, this is a good thing.
Oh well, nevermind then. You say its a good thing. I say that its not how I find scum. It could very well be we are both right, and we could both be town as well.

Basically, what you are saying here is because I don't throw votes around at random, like a fool, I must be scum. This argument is inherently weak (weak arguments are, for me, scumtells). This is the stuff I like to evaluate. Your point is: random nonsense good, logical reasoning bad!
This isn't an either or situation, presenting it as such is a fallacy. Specifially, the either/or fallacy. Making fallacious arguments doe not mandate that you are scum, but does make me a tad more suspicious of you.

This was almost a month ago. Who was it, and how do you feel about them now? You know what, it doesn't really matter, because this is the type of post I've seen that when a strong wagon begins to go you can point back at this, whomever it is, and claim you've been watching them.
Why ask if you don't want to hear the answer? Actually, if you go back and re-read my posts, the answer isn't hidden at all. Since the person first drew my attention i asked him several innocuous questions, and have been trying to follow him ever since. I have no problem saying that his latest ploy has me rather confused, but that is nothing new, there is much in this game that i am uncertain about.

But as you say, it is day 1. And We are all looking for little signs, here and there. Why is it for you, this becomes an excuse to act, but for someone who would wait and see, it becomes worthy of a vote? Have you ever read Hamlet? Not to spoil it, but at the end, after all that moping around and thinking things over, Hamlet does kill his uncle.
Ooh, here's one of those minor things you love so much. Why "them" and not "us"?
Who said I love minor things? Maybe you ahve confused me with yourself, and you just happen to love minors? Or maybe Miners?

Who knows. But if you are going to make stuff up I can as well.

Now, as to your point, why them and not us? Simple. BM doesn't lead me. You didn't see me jumping on the half dozen or so wagons he started do you?

Hope that answers your question.


Are you suggesting that if, in fact, the cult began with a leader and a separate recruiter, that both can recruit? Otherwise, why are you worried about them? The recruiter is the one who is dead.
Why mention it? Because I am playing a game right now off site where the cult recruiter died night one and the leader took over recruitment thereafter. There is nothing in the Wiki I've read that says Cult recruitment absolutely has to stop with the death of the recruiter.

Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. I just think it shouldn't be forgotten, lest it become a reality later. Why, does my mentioning it make you uncomforatble?
"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it."

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Post Post #784 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:50 am

Post by Battle Mage »

Antithesis wrote:
Anti, if you are town you dont want to be lynched, so do yourself a favour and post some analysis please. Get at least some opinions down. If you think all cases so far have been shit, what does that make you think about those pushing them (most probably me in particular).
I consider you to be a vey curious case.

On one hand, you have claimed Miller, early, making you suspicious to some, and on the otehr hand, you seem to be perhaps the most active person here in hunting scum, making you a target for a scum kill.
A fair assessment.
Anti wrote: These two aspects, your claim, and your play, are seemingly in opposition. The less mindful among us may very well look at this and , in his or her confusion, think you are scum based upon this alone.
I dont think so. You see, claim and play are very different aspects of the game. I have to claim my role as it is. I acknowledge that its a very scummy claim, but it benefits the town more to come forward early. I cant help what the Mod gave me. My play on the other hand, is genuine. I'd base your opinion of me more heavily upon that than my claim alone, but then i WOULD say that. :P
Anti wrote: However, what you are doing is playing a very dangerous game, where you must keep some suspicion on you, so that scum will want to keep you alive, and yet, you must produce results for the town, so they don't lynch you.
Much as i'd like to think otherwise, i highly doubt the mafia are going to try and waste an NK on a claimed vanilla. lol!

Anti wrote:If the game were just Mafia and a SK vs the Town, then what you are doing... I have seen before elsewhere.

What bothers me is the Cult.

Lets assume that they aren't dead, that there is a recruiter and a cult leader, as some Cults have.

The game you are playing works perfectly if you are, in fact, a cultist. What better way to explain away potential investigations then claim a Miller. And being Cult, with a seperate win condition (I imagine) from the Mafia, you'd be more than happy to serve the Mafia up to be lynched, all the while quietly going about your recruitments.
ROFL. Yeh thats right. Im the last remaining Cult Member. Im basically a survivor from Day 1 onwards. So ya know what i do? I draw as much attention to myself as possible, making it virtually impossible for me to survive to anywhere near endgame. :lol:
I'm nearly wetting myself with laughter here! :D
Anti wrote: Of course, it being day one, and with the early death of a cultist, and no one countering your Miller claim (yet anyways) everything points to you being what you claim.
I dont think a miller would hesitate to counter claim. lol
Why would he not want to be the hero of the hour by nailing scum at zero cost?
"The simplest explanation is often the correct one"- Lisa Simpson
Anti wrote: However, as I mentioned in another post earlier, somewhere around day four or 5, if you are still alive, a hard look needs to be taken at your voting, and at your history in this game in general. Also by then, we may have a better understanding of the status of the cult. Understand that, even if you are a Townie miller now, I think claiming early makes you a damn near perfect target for recruitment later on.
Erm you are aware that the cult recruiter is dead right?
:shock:
Anti wrote: I have decided to take a wait and see approach to you.
I'm actually shaking in my boots. :P

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Post Post #785 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:55 am

Post by Antithesis »

Much as i'd like to think otherwise, i highly doubt the mafia are going to try and waste an NK on a claimed vanilla. lol!
I dunno, I think they'd try to kill you if you were tearing them a new one. I can already see you are starting to move into a leadership position here. In my experience, scum do not like town leaders.

But then again you did claim Miller, so we'll see. :P
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Post Post #786 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:00 am

Post by Antithesis »

ROFL. Yeh thats right. Im the last remaining Cult Member. Im basically a survivor from Day 1 onwards. So ya know what i do? I draw as much attention to myself as possible, making it virtually impossible for me to survive to anywhere near endgame.
I'm nearly wetting myself with laughter here!
Again, everything points to you being what you've claimed.. for now anyways. Thats always the case in mafia. Claims get tested, if by nothing else, the apprehension of a counter claim.
I'm actually shaking in my boots.
I doubt I'll make it that long.
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Post Post #787 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:04 am

Post by Battle Mage »

Antithesis wrote:
Much as i'd like to think otherwise, i highly doubt the mafia are going to try and waste an NK on a claimed vanilla. lol!
I dunno, I think they'd try to kill you if you were tearing them a new one. I can already see you are starting to move into a leadership position here. In my experience, scum do not like town leaders.

But then again you did claim Miller, so we'll see. :P
should that happen, i think itd be pretty clear that we were onto something, and also that the mafia are comprised of retards. :P
But if you are correct, i hope i will recieve doc protection. ;););)

*directs power-roles*

:lol:

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Day-elimmed by majority - 4

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Post Post #788 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:08 am

Post by Battle Mage »

Antithesis wrote:
You are being ridiculous. If you think arguments made are weak, then maybe you should consider looking at those PUSHING THE WEAK ARGUMENTS? -.-
This is a slightly different but related issue.

It strikes me that some are simply wagoning or posting to post, to seem active without doing anything at all.

My natural inclination is to think that this is scummy, but there are too many people doing it. To bring it home, so to speak, I cannot discern between people who are doing it because they are naive, against those who are doing it because its in their interests to do so. The only people who should be interested in playing this way, by page 30, are scum.
You can often differentiate by testing those who wagon multiple times without any real comment on that players scumminess. Without conviction if you will.

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Day-elimmed by majority - 4

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Post Post #789 (ISO) » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:04 pm

Post by Khelvaster »

We definitely don't need a deadline. Posting here has been quite brisk.
Lag actually does exist in real life. For proof, look no further than Jesus: When he died, it took him three *days* to respawn.
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Post Post #790 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:50 am

Post by armlx »

I don't want to lynch CKD day 1 as he's a good contributor, but asking for a deadline is very out of character from what I've seen of him looking around the site.
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Post Post #791 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:59 am

Post by Battle Mage »

armlx wrote:I don't want to lynch CKD day 1 as he's a good contributor, but asking for a deadline is very out of character from what I've seen of him looking around the site.
QFAT
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Post Post #792 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:59 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

really armlx, is there another game that you have a meta on that I argued against a deadline after a month and 30 pages on day 1? I have argued a deadline before when conversation was hot and heavy...but this game was dying and with 27 people and 30+ pages in day 1 alone, it will be hard to get replacements, and I just got out of a game that suffered from modkills 5-6 of them to be exact)...it sucked...we lost to the SK

post here only got "brisk" after the deadline conversation started...before that dumbasses were telling jokes and voting themselves or talking about BWs just to get a lynch over with....so dont act like this game was rocking before then.

If my request did anything, it was to get people talking again...which, BTW, is what deadlines do... :roll:
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE
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Post Post #793 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:03 am

Post by armlx »

I don't have examples, but your play style seems a lot more calculating, and usually asking for deadlines screws that up.
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Post Post #794 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:07 am

Post by andersonw »

Okay, I'm back. This game has been very hard to digest so far.
Apparently, I haven't missed much, pages 25-27 were pretty much fluff, and page 29 was very hard to read.
Anyway, farside22 has been playing much better than nanosauromo, and doesn't appear very mafia-like, so I will
Unvote
.

I think a deadline is fine, because it can always be extended if needed. And the discussion isn't really that great right now.

Post 674 is completely pointless, I wonder why nobody said anything about it.

Could someone explain what was so suspicious about Lloyd (besides self-voting) that caused a bandwagon?

Sorry if I'm not being that coherent right now, I'm about to take a nap (was up until midnight last night, had school today).
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Post Post #795 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:36 am

Post by Battle Mage »

what was hard to read about Page 29?
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Post Post #796 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:58 am

Post by armlx »

anderson: The suspicious thing was Lloyd was screwing around on page 29, not page 2. Derailing conversation is bad news bears.

I sorta missed post 674 in reading. He needs to post real content now.

BM: Page 29 is the table of doom.
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Post Post #797 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:16 am

Post by Battle Mage »

armlx wrote:anderson: The suspicious thing was Lloyd was screwing around on page 29, not page 2. Derailing conversation is bad news bears.
bears?
rofl!
Armlx wrote: BM: Page 29 is the table of doom.
Oh. Nuff said. :P

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Post Post #798 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:25 am

Post by farside22 »

@Antithesis: Not everyone is wagon hopping around. Some people voted based on crap unvoting (TLP) and saying there was a deadline when there wasn't. Some votes are based on those not participating and voting to vote without reason and making OMGUS comments instead of answering questions directed at them (Killa seven). It's not all nonsense if you are reading. You still haven't answered my question about your "quote" on your sig. Do you have proff that was said word for word by me because I take offense at slander.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #799 (ISO) » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:37 am

Post by Peers »

farside22 wrote:You still haven't answered my question about your "quote" on your sig. Do you have proff that was said word for word by me because I take offense at slander.
Wow... you mean people actually read sigs here? I turn 'em off whenever I join a forum... usually they're useless.

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