Mafia 74: Minimally Flavoured - Game over!

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Vote : Panzerjager

For reasons stated yesterday. (See post 601)

I don’t mind people being suspicious of me, that’s the whole nature of the game. However I am getting a bit discouraged that players like Liamcool, Phat, Rishi, and Xyzzy can contribute next to nothing and noone says a thing.
You lurkers, contribute please. Who do you find suspicious and why?
You more active players, don’t allow the lurkers a free ride! Press them to participate!

Liamcool, you have stated that you are leaning toward me in your suspicions, why?

Phate, you voted for me yesterday citing Bookitty’s argument of scum jumping on to the Egruntz bandwagon. Do you have any original reasons for suspecting me?
Panz and Volkan, are you suspicious of me for any other reasons than lurkerhunting? Lurkerhunting is a pretty weak tell.

[Antithesis]

Well notification that my investigation of Rishi gets "no response".

Can anyone figure out why Skruffs and Has were killed?

I don't recall either being an object of suspicion, at least not to any great degree.

I don't remember either being involved enough to justify the belief that their deaths might have been undertaken to set something or someone up.

I look at them and I think to myself that, if there really are two groups, both have agreed to kill the least suspicious, and therefore, those whom are most likely to be town.

And then I recall that this precise thing was discussed the previous phase.

I can't help but feel that it wasn't entirely a coincidence.

[Rishi]

I look at them and I think to myself that, if there really are two groups, both have agreed to kill the least suspicious, and therefore, those whom are most likely to be town.

And then I recall that this precise thing was discussed the previous phase.

I can't help but feel that it wasn't entirely a coincidence.

So are you suggesting that the two scum groups are able to communicate at night or do you think that they passed messages to each other in the thread?

This is really implausible.

[vollkan]

Panz and Volkan, are you suspicious of me for any other reasons than lurkerhunting? Lurkerhunting is a pretty weak tell.

I'd direct you to my PBPA for this in full.

First off, lurkerhunting is distinct from suspecting lurkers - and you did the latter.
Egs:

He has been lurking and bandwagoning. Both very common mafia tells.

[voll edit] Fwiw, bandwagoning isn't a tell either [/voll]

The last half page struck as huge distancing about non-consequental bullshit.

I have to disagree with Panzerjager here. Mills and Hasdgfas disagree on the content of Dark Ermac's post. (Post # 47). I find it very useful to discuss differences of opinion in this game. I can see both sides of the argument and I think both have valid points. What I find interesting is the silence of Dark Ermac. He is the one player who could clearly state which view point is correct, yet he has chosen to remain silent.
So far Dark Ermac has contributed very little to the game. In fact the post in question seems to be only worthwhile post he has made. His last post was on Dec 30:

Anyway, the Fonz and DS seem to be the most suspicious, but I'll go check over the previous few pages in a while.

He stated his suspicions, but gave no explanation. Dark Ermac is not helping find mafia with his lurking, or his unexplained suspicions. As a result, he has climbed my "suspicious persons list" to second place, after Disciple Slayer.

We need to use the first few days to strip away the places that mafia traditionaly hide. Lurking, mindless bandwagoning etc.

I'm open to policy arguments about lynching lurkers (eg. a "categorical imperative"-esque argument that if all town lurker town would lose. Thus, lurking should not be tolerated.) but it's bullshit to suggest that lurking is a scumtell. I've seen town lurkers; I've seen scum lurkers.

Your play this game has not relied on deep reasoning or cases so much as it has relied on attacking people for lurking (or, when contorted, for "not contributing"). That isn't scumhunting. That's lurkerhunting disguised as scumhunting. Lurkerhunting is all well and good, but it is useless if there isn't scumhunting as well.

[Bookitty]

Rishi, out of curiosity, do you think it's likely I'd more likely be scum with egruntz's group or with Xylthixlm's?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this.

Additionally, I think it's interesting that Antithesis wasn't nightkilled, but two of the people Rishi said he believed were solidly town were.

Perhaps the two scumgroups each thought that the other was going to target the cop, and didn't want to waste their kill on someone the other scum would target anyway. It's possible. I think Antithesis is confirmed, because 1) the back-up cop is dead; there'd not be one if we didn't have a cop; 2) the existence of a back-up cop means that there's not likely another cop; and 3) there's no counterclaim of cop given 1) and 2).

Vollkan, what do you think of Panzerjager?

Snaps, what do you think of Rishi? (Not his predecessor; Rishi himself.)

Phate, what do you think of... well... anyone?

[Antithesis]

I look at them and I think to myself that, if there really are two groups, both have agreed to kill the least suspicious, and therefore, those whom are most likely to be town.

And then I recall that this precise thing was discussed the previous phase.

I can't help but feel that it wasn't entirely a coincidence.

So are you suggesting that the two scum groups are able to communicate at night or do you think that they passed messages to each other in the thread?

This is really implausible.

Not a literal agreement, rather, an unspoken understanding.

I look at the last two victims and I go, damn... now nearly everyone tahts left seems suspicious for some reason or another.

And that, being entirely an accident, is whats implausible here.

[Rishi]

Rishi, out of curiosity, do you think it's likely I'd more likely be scum with egruntz's group or with Xylthixlm's?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this.

Additionally, I think it's interesting that Antithesis wasn't nightkilled, but two of the people Rishi said he believed were solidly town were.

I apologize for not answering this sooner. Day 3 ended before I could respond and I forgot when the thread opened again.

You were pushing hard for an egruntz lynch, from early in Day 1. If you were bussing egruntz, you were really dedicated to it. Couple that with the fact that you had few interactions with Xyl and I think that both you and Xyl are smart players, knowing to limit interaction. So, if you were scum, I would put you on Xyl's team.

It also doesn't help your case that you've been on EVERY lynch so far, along with vollkan (though I find vollkan much less suspicious than you).

As for my "most town" suspects dying, it does seem odd. I don't know what to make of it. I'm inclined to think of it as coincidence, though.

[vollkan]

Vollkan, what do you think of Panzerjager?

I don't like him, but I will analyse him in order to work out whether this is concrete or just gut nonsense.

[Bookitty]

All right. Looking at this game from the normal perspective of hunting scum isn't working exactly the way it should for me, so I'm going to line it out like this:

I'm certain Antithesis is town; fairly sure (but not certain) that Vollkan and Panzerjager are, as well. That leaves five suspects containing four scum (assuming two scumgroups of three, which seems a decent assumption). Phate and Liamcool are lurking. Xyzzy is lurking as well, though not as seriously as the first two. Rishi is pushing a lot of suspicions a lot of ways, but if he were lynched and came up scum, I can see a link (mentioned previously by someone else) between Rishi and Snaps. I don't see any other definite links.

@mod

Can we get a prod on Phate, please? Thank you.

[Rishi]

Anyone else find it interesting that Bookitty is defending vollkan, considering they are the two people who have been on every single lynch so far?

And yes, I am pushing suspicions on in a lot of ways, because there's likely four scum. As we haven't seen three kills since the first night, I'm starting to think that a one-shot vig seems more likely than a serial killer. Also, I think it's better to push more people and get everyone involved in the conversation moving than to tunnel-vision and limit the scope of the investigation.

[Bookitty]

Rishi:

The fact that you're pushing suspicions in lots of directions is a point in your favour. Your predecessor lurked until he got replaced; that's hardly winning you townie points by default.

I can see a link between you and Snaps, and so it becomes more likely to me that you are scum with him; but your own postings are the reason you haven't gotten a vote from me.

How do you feel I've defended Vollkan? Simply by stating that I think he's town?

[Rishi]

Rishi:

The fact that you're pushing suspicions in lots of directions is a point in your favour. Your predecessor lurked until he got replaced; that's hardly winning you townie points by default.

I can see a link between you and Snaps, and so it becomes more likely to me that you are scum with him; but your own postings are the reason you haven't gotten a vote from me.

How do you feel I've defended Vollkan? Simply by stating that I think he's town?

Saying someone is town is a defense, of sort. Of course, no one is really attacking vollkan.

And let's be fair. My predecessor made ONE POST total. This doesn't suggest the behavior of a lurker, but of someone who never really played. It's likely he left the site shortly after signing up for this game.

[Bookitty]

Saying someone is town is a defense, of sort. Of course, no one is really attacking vollkan.

And let's be fair. My predecessor made ONE POST total. This doesn't suggest the behavior of a lurker, but of someone who never really played. It's likely he left the site shortly after signing up for this game.

I'm not sure of the point of these comments.

Do you feel people should be attacking Vollkan? Do you feel that being active and thus on all of the lynches, including the one that hit scum, is a definitive scumtell? Is it equally telling against both Vollkan and myself?

Do you think lurking is a valid scumtell, Rishi?

[Rishi]

Saying someone is town is a defense, of sort. Of course, no one is really attacking vollkan.

And let's be fair. My predecessor made ONE POST total. This doesn't suggest the behavior of a lurker, but of someone who never really played. It's likely he left the site shortly after signing up for this game.

I'm not sure of the point of these comments.

Do you feel people should be attacking Vollkan? Do you feel that being active and thus on all of the lynches, including the one that hit scum, is a definitive scumtell? Is it equally telling against both Vollkan and myself?

Do you think lurking is a valid scumtell, Rishi?

What I am saying is that participating in all the lynches (and, yes, that did include one scum) seems odd to me. I guess I'm just looking for an explanation from you and vollkan why you have participated in every lynch.

I think intentional lurking is a scumtell. However, I think it's nearly impossible to separate intentional lurking from people who simply don't have that much free time or have lost interest in the game. Most of the time when someone looks like they are lurking, they have a perfectly legitimate reason for not participating.

Anyway, even though I think this conversation between me and Bookitty is productive, I would like to hear some others chime in. Thoughts, anyone? I especially want to hear from liamcool.

[Bookitty]

I've been in the game from the start. I've made arguments against the people who were lynched. I was on the lynch because I believed they were scum. I wasn't always right about that, but I was willing to line out my suspicions and stand behind them.

Is it your experience that scum tend to be on all the wagons?

[vollkan]

What I am saying is that participating in all the lynches (and, yes, that did include one scum) seems odd to me. I guess I'm just looking for an explanation from you and vollkan why you have participated in every lynch.

The question you are asking assumes that an explanation can be given. I can only explain it on the basis of there being 2 good lynches (OGML and egr) and 1 obvious/necessary lynch (Eteo).

[Snaps_the_Pirate]

Snaps, what do you think of Rishi?

I really am unsure what to think about Rishi. He replaced in, lurked at first, pointed out the difference in name color of our two found scum, has suddenly became much more vocal, and has only voted once out of the three days. Maybe my attacks on the lurkers has motivated him to contribute more? Maybe not, whatever the case, he is contributing now. If he is scum he’ll slip-up and we’ll have him. We need keep everyone active and talking. The only way we will find the remaining scum is to get them to say something that gives them away. This is why lurking hurts the game. If we allow lurking, then scum just need to post occasional comments and skate along unnoticed while we hang each other.

As for the “link” between Rishi and myself, what do you see? If you are referring to post 631 where OGML said Rishi was the only lurker I hadn’t gone after, the reason for that is that I was busy going after more blatant lurkers.

If I don’t have any strong suspicions, I go after lurkers. I target the most conspicuous ones hoping to shake up any scum lurkers as well as to remove the dead wood.

I am sure Panz is scum on Egruntz team. I will be leaving my vote for him.

[Rishi]

Bookitty - Scum want to lynch people. Also, in a setup like this, they don't necessarily get "townie points" for lynching scum, since members of one team are happy to lynch members of the other team.

[Bookitty]

Snaps: I cannot reconcile the fact that Panzerjager was the first to suggest two scum teams, and the fact that he agreed with me and pushed egruntz's lynch, with the thought that he could be on Egruntz's team. How do you explain those facts?

Rishi: We've only lynched one scum so far; I was instrumental in that. If your best evidence against anyone is "They were on all the lynches so far", then maybe you could look at people who are defending others and trying to deflect from their lynch, rather than tunnelling on people for something that isn't even a scumtell.

Oh, and while I think of it, precisely why is Vollkan less suspicious than me on the same evidence?

[Rishi]

Rishi: We've only lynched one scum so far; I was instrumental in that. If your best evidence against anyone is "They were on all the lynches so far", then maybe you could look at people who are defending others and trying to deflect from their lynch, rather than tunnelling on people for something that isn't even a scumtell.

Oh, and while I think of it, precisely why is Vollkan less suspicious than me on the same evidence?

Yes, it's my best evidence so far, but even I realize the case isn't super strong. If you've noticed, it hasn't warranted a vote on my part.

As for vollkan, the reason he seems less suspicious is all of his behavior that doesn't relate to voting patterns. Of course, especially lately, vollkan always seems town to me.

[PJ.]

Right now, IMHO, we are faced with two choices. I'm pretty positive Rishi is town so that's out. Vollkan is more then not town. I'm suspicious of BooKitty, but not enough to really lynch her. So that leaves, in my mind 2 options. Lynch a lurker or lynch snaps. What has hurt us more, the guy who is floating along accusing lurkers of being scum which has gotten nobody but eteo(back-up cop) lynched and has gotten absolutely nobody to post so the applying pressure theory is obviously not working. He has done very little but shout scum at ever lurker and now a nice OMGUS vote on me. The other is 3 people who have done pretty much nothing. A policy lynch maybe in order here but I could think a snaps lynch is very very plausible..

[Rishi]

What I think is funny is that Snaps actually thinks that he has gotten me to post by his "applying pressure" to lurkers. He has a really skewed sense of his importance to this game.

I'd be on board with a Snaps lynch, if a better lynch doesn't emerge. Snaps is relatively harmless, as Panz implies. All Snaps does is create white noise in the thread.

If we're going to lynch a lurker, I'd go with liamcool, but I'd like to hear from him first, just to confirm that he's actually lurking and not just quitting.

But, in the mean time, we may as well apply some pressure to Snaps, since he's here and responding.

Vote: Snaps

So, Snaps, how do you reconcile the fact that you've hunted lurkers before, and not all of them have turned up scum?

[PJ.]

Can we stop misusing the word reconcile please?

[Elias_the_thief]

Prod sent to Phate...Xyzzy is not responding to prod...reprodding now and if there is no response requesting replacement.

Edit: also prodding liamcool.

[vollkan]

Before I do my next PBPA, something which has come up in House Mafia, which just finished, is what shaft.ed terms the "Vollkan effect" - namely that my use of PBPAs has the effect of causing other people to rely on me as the "Cliff's Notes" version of the game. I don't like this because I need argument in order to test any ideas I get. I am slightly worried that my actions in this game may be having this effect. The point of these PBPAs is to incite debate, not to educate the lazy.

In order to get around that, I am going to make this more case-oriented than summary-oriented. So that you can't get away with just reading me.

PBPA of Panzerjager

1: Tells egr to stop spouting stupid ideas.
2: Votes Fonz for writing egr off and voting somebody for attacking egr

I don't see how Fonz's actions are scummy. He votes someone for assuming that anti-town =/= scum, and it was reasonable to assume he was a newbie (He had townsperson under his name).

5: Votes Mills for advocating the lynch of anti-towns

HA! Irony. You call Fonz scum because he voted Bookitty for voting egruntz for being anti-town, when you yourself just voted Mills for pushing against DS.

11: Is against Xyl's proposal to lynch the anti-town

But doesn't vote him...interesting

12: Votes Mills and FoSes hasdfas for a page of distancing (it was distancing because it was "non-consequential"

This argument is crap. Obvious distancing involves kid-glove attacks - designed to show suspicion but not to risk a lynch.

13: After being attacked for the issue I italicised, he then says that the very fact there was no attacking (ie. no 'distancing') is what makes it suspicious.

How is this scummy at all?!

14: Suspicion list:

Mills
Egruntz
Cow
The Fonz
Disciple Slayer
Patch15
the other lurkers that I haven't mentioned
everyone else
Elias
Me

15: FoSes DE; it's unclear why "I haven't really liked what he has had to say, but i think it's semantics cause the idea isn't scummy just the words. "
16: "I think egruntz is town. I really do."

Your suspicion list from just two days ago says otherwise

His top contender for scum is Mills.
20: The meltdown confirms he is scummy.

How?

21: More anti-Mills. Doesn't think DS deserves more votes.
27: Attacks CKD for

• a) Lurking - Not a scumtell
  b) Over-reacting - Not a scumtell
  c) OMGUSing - Depends how its done. And you don't analyse the how

31: Again attacks CKD for being over-defensive, saying it shows a guilty conscience

Bullshit

32: Jumps onto Egr in agreement with Bookitty

What happened to "I think egruntz is town. I really do."?

42: Votes Phate for thinking Egr would spill

Scummy how?

55: Thinks OGML and Snaps are scummy, with no reasons
62: Swaps to snaps because OGML seems somewhat sincere
67: Votes OGML for the "sake of a lynch"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please respond to all that is italicised.