Mini Normal 2326 | Everything has exploded !

[SuperfluousNinja]

And who is "our"? Am I the only one here who doesn't know what Team Liquid is?

[SuperfluousNinja]

This game is, TBH, not good for my mental health.

If you want me to change my mind, be diplomatic about it.

If you don't like something I've said, do everything in your power not to be such a jerk about it. I 5000% prefer that you just say something like "this is incorrect for reasons X Y and Z" instead of "What?!?! LOL what the hell yo!"

All I'm asking is that you

ACT LIKE A GODDAMN ADULT.

If that is too much for you to handle, I'm going to stop talking to you. There are enough reasonable people in this game, who I trust, that I expect this to be no issue at all in how I approach and hopefully solve this game.

If you are upset that this is my plan, I don't care. If you want to tell me you think this is bad, FUCK OFF. If I run out of people I trust or my reads change, I'll re-evaluate accordingly. But I am just fucking done having conversations with people who can't just be decent.

[SuperfluousNinja]

For real if the scum team turns out to be Dunnstral / Dannflor / Naerys, I won't know what to do with myself lol.

Yall remember when I said I suck at this game? There you go.

[SuperfluousNinja]

If it is Dunnstral / Dannflor / Luca, my mind is going to fucking explode.

If the more dominant voices in this town are to be trusted / believed, then there are 3 scum amongst the pool of Dunnstral / Dannflor / Luca / Naerys. Seeing who has the ability to control the conversation and who does not, I doubt that any less popular theories gain any traction until we learn that we didn't capture the entire scum team in that pool of 4.

I've got ways to sort that out but until there's a good reason to suspect otherwise, it doesn't seem like any of us are going to do ourselves any favors entertaining any other theories at the moment.

[SuperfluousNinja]

UNVOTE:

[SuperfluousNinja]

Dunnstral, just to make sure, you're aware that you are at -1 and that people are expecting a role claim here?

If you're really avoiding the issue then I'm inclined to hammer here.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Even if gob is a troll town, him voting Dunnstral and being familiar with him is a plus. And I think it's a serious vote.

When did they say this?

Oh okay, the second half of this quote is Vivax's vote, and pointing out that Dunnstral is -1 and bringing up that a role claim might be good here. So Dunnstral is for sure aware.....

[SuperfluousNinja]

FWIW, Dann and Luca both said they'd be fine with a Dunn vote prior to reaching hammer territory, so that certainly makes a Dunnstral / Dannflor / Luca team less likely. And Naerys is frankly a lazy target and easy pickins for scum, so that feels off to me. Maybe I'm not as dumb as I think.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I feel like if he was town, he would have claimed, period.

Even if his role sucks, what can he do about that? Claiming anything else as town has got to be a terrible idea, like if he did claim a power role, someone else may speak up and out themselves, and then Dunn dies anyway. Kinda just have to accept that the gods of mafia fucked you over if you're vanilla town in this instance.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Maybe he didn't see he was e-1 just wait.

I already ruled that out. He quoted the post from Vivax that did exactly that; he just erased the portion of it saying that he was at -1.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm good with a hammer at any point. Nothing else I want to talk about today.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I have nothing to add, other than to say your sensitivity to Dunn's suspicion makes more sense now since you're a power role lol

[SuperfluousNinja]

The suspense is killing me lol

[SuperfluousNinja]

The suspense is killing me lol

Same lol. I did a quick sweep through her ISO to try to see who she may have wanted to check.

My bet from her posts is Oats, but that'd make me bad for copying OutofOrder/DP's read on him.

Well at this rate, that will be tomorrow's problem lol.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Well Grack, if you feel bad about your reads, realize that I had a vote on / suspected a power town for a large chunk of day 1, I leaned scum on a vanilla townie, and I had a strong scum read on the player who now appears to be a town investigator.

To say that my reads have been a bit off this game is a massive understatement lol.

[SuperfluousNinja]

That's great, but like, why would we yeet anyone other than whoever Hu Tao mentions today?

Obviously we need to know if they are lying, and if they are, we yeet Hu Tao next, which I'm sure Hu Tao is well aware of, thus they wouldn't just make this up.

I see no reason to doubt Hu Tao here and don't plan on focusing on anyone other than whoever they bring up today.

[SuperfluousNinja]

This is like that experiment with the kids where they are promised two marshmallows instead of one if they just wait 10 minutes for them.

(I am calling myself the kid in this scenario)

[SuperfluousNinja]

Watch it be another 24 hours before Luca shows up.

This is driving me fucking crazy! I honestly don't understand the point of waiting for everyone to chime in anyway.

[SuperfluousNinja]

But yes I don’t think hu Tao should reveal

I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to here. Reveal their information, or reveal their role?

They have already revealed themselves as a power town, so why wouldn't they just go ahead and reveal what they know at that point?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Well I've put off my errands long enough and Luca seems content to sleep with the fishes or whatever he's off doing so I'm out for the time being.

[SuperfluousNinja]

But yes I don’t think hu Tao should reveal

I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to here. Reveal their information, or reveal their role?

They have already revealed themselves as a power town, so why wouldn't they just go ahead and reveal what they know at that point?

There are reasons to not reveal. We shouldn't talk about them till later tho.

Well I'm gonna have to remember to ask you what those are in post-processing. Maybe I am just too much of a noob at this game but I feel like I've searched every corner of my brain and can't come up with a good reason why waiting on this reveal in this particular circumstance is helping anything.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Well Ninja is at least just waiting. Unsure what that means.

Really?

You should know EXACTLY what that means.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I think that leaves luca

Luca is here now, can you do whatever it is you plan on doing?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Well, I've decided this game isn't particularly enjoyable for me and I'm probably going to play like Gob from here out, so fill your boots.

What makes you feel this way?
Is it because people think you're mafia (if you're town it shouldn't), or something else?

The fact that half the players are from a different site who are basically ganging up and shouting down everyone else, especially Darth Punk and Oats, you to a lesser extent, Grack and Vivax the least, but they also are more inclined to side the same way.

I think Darth Punk could well be scum, but am I going to waste my time trying to push for him elimination when there is no chance of it being successful in this climate? Hopefully Hu Tao has a guilty on him, as that might change how I feel a little bit.

Going out now.

Yep. 100% in agreement with this sentiment.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm actually kinda surprised someone said it out loud, it's pretty much been on my mind for a while now but I thought I was the only one who felt that way lol.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'll leave it to you and Vivax to have another 500 pages of back-and-forth to convince you why that's clearly incorrect.

[SuperfluousNinja]

imo OoO is town with the way he acted during this whole thing. I also think ninja is pretty obvious town too.

Okay...this REALLY confuses me. Because OOO's reaction to this and mine could not possibly be more different.

Mine was, great, you've got a lead, let's see where it takes us, the end. Some other people tried pushing me for stuff, and I was largely just like, nah, I don't really see the need.

OOO did one of the biggest songs and dances I've ever seen in this place. What about this? What about that? Ninja, can we get a reads list? Vivax, what do you think about this? Luca, let's have it out with more bullshit! Hey Vivax, what do you think about this and that and the other thing? How many more words can I insert here to try and stir up as much shit as I possibly can and hopefully distract everyone from what is going on here?

I admit to being a little slow at the start, but I figured it out eventually: the main reason you wanted to wait was to see who would do everything in their power to try and distract from it, who would throw up more smoke and mirrors, who would do anything other than just "cool, let's hear what you have to say". I thought there was a chance that you made the claim up, but I did figure out that that's why you were waiting.

Because, let's be real: if you really were outing yourself as some investigative role who found scum, either as a cop or a watcher who saw who visited Roden or some such thing, there's NO reason to not just focus entirely on what you have to say. There's little reason to keep on speculating, to keep on having these discussions, when you (allegedly) have the ability to narrow down the target list which would probably put a lot of theories to bed and would obviously make at least some, if not a lot, of what was said between your initial announcement and your reveal completely pointless.

If you lied about it, we'd yeet the person you said was guilty and find out they are scum, and we'd just yeet you tomorrow. If you fake-claimed as an investigative role and bussed your teammate to look legit, the actual investigative role would see a red flag and immediately check you, and you'd once again be hosed but now with 1 fewer teammate also, so that makes it an even DUMBER play. So the only logical conclusion here was that you were telling the truth.

I think scum were aware of this on some level but were hoping that I wouldn't go through all of this and say it all, but at this point I would be highly suspicious of anyone who tried to insert a whole bunch of pretty much anything between your initial announcement and what you said just now.

So I guess that's actually why I'm a bit confused why you think both OOO and myself reacted "well" or whatever word you choose here. Why do you say that, Hu Tao?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Frankly, scum, you are total morons for choosing ME as your target right now. Are you not following how bad my reads are? How I keep on telling you how bad I am at this game? Why would you not want me at the end of the game and keep me on the final day when I can keep my idiotic streak going? You are totally blowing it here lol. Pretty much everyone here is a lot better at this than I am and you are completely fucking yourselves over by removing me from the game. You want to keep the people with thousands and thousands of posts on this site instead and think they'll be easier to play in end game? lol the hell are you thinking here...

[SuperfluousNinja]

Are you really scumreading Hu Toa for this? Like really fucking really????

You really, really need to stop being so fucking intolerant of people coming to a different conclusion from you.

And this will be the last time I talk to you, unless you apologize and shape the fuck up. I'm going to switch gears now and explain why it is that your personality and your attitude are making this game so difficult for me, probably for Luca also.

When you take this kind of attitude towards people like this, they don't want to talk to you. You're being toxic. You're making me upset. You're real-life stressing me out with how incredibly toxic you are towards me, like I am constantly afraid of saying anything in this game, trying to give a read, without you just completely fucking blowing up in my face over it.

You and your buddies here seem to have some connection with each other that I'm not a part of, and pretty much all of you seem totally satisfied with just beating me up as much as you can. I can't make a counterpoint to Darth without him making some snide comment about how he thinks I'm trying to one-up him. I can't theorize about Vivax without him telling me he's literally laughing out loud at me and how dumb I am. And Oats is just champing at the bit to shit all over anyone. I hate talking to any of you. I fucking HATE it. I can't stress that enough. It is a horrible experience talking to fucking any of you about anything.

I'm asking you to stop and to treat me like a fucking human being, and I will NOT ask again. I'm really fucking sick of this shit. Dial it the fuck down. Now.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Here's where I am right now.

TOWN
Luca
Darth
Oats
Gob
Dannflor
Hu Tao

NULL
OOO
Vivax
Naerys
Grack

I'm not confident in any scum reads at this point. So far my track record on my scumspicions has been totally wrong so I think I'm going to try this the other way, where I find people to put in the town bucket and solve by process of elimination.

I am genuinely worried that scum have taken control of the conversation and that those of us who are getting shouted down with excessive punctuation and belligerent rhetoric are falling victim to it. If you want, I could probably find dozens and dozens of examples of people using hostile tone here and explain in detail how people would react to stuff like that. In essence, you'll expect them to become meek, to lose their composure, to make mistakes.

For the life of me, I cannot conceive of any reason why any townie who is interested in winning this game would speak to each other. But I understand perfectly why scum would find it so advantageous to use harsh rhetoric, to belittle people, to emotionally influence people into shutting the hell up, because they know the facts aren't on their side and so this is what they have to resort to.

Please, everybody, let's agree to knock off the hostility. If you really, truly, honestly believe that you've seen no hostility here and just do not understand what could be interpreted as such, go ahead and tell me so and I'll go through and demonstrate to you how it could be happening. It has happened a little bit amongst probably half of you but there's one here who has just gone completely overboard with it. Let's all agree we are going to be respectful to each other and NOT tear each other to shreds like scum wants us to, and let's agree to call out this shit if we see people being rude, there's no fucking reason for it and it is driving people away from this game.

In short, let's bring a swift end to this shitty tactic OOO is trying to use on us and RESTORE order.

VOTE: OutOfOrder

[SuperfluousNinja]

For the life of me, I cannot conceive of any reason why any townie who is interested in winning this game would speak to each other.

*like that

Add that to the end lol. Don't worry, I DO know why townies want to speak to each other lol.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm also going to bed, see you all in several hours.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I agree that there is at least one or two of the tl players in the scum team, but outoforder seems the one who is genuinely trying to solve the game, whereas Oats comes across as incredibly insincere and Darth Punk's actions and statements don't align, which shows he doesn't actually believe what he is saying, as well as the fact his supposed confidence is based on such poor reasoning, when he is supposed to be a good player as town. Oats is like the annoying sidekick, always there to back up his buddy. This is more likely where the scum lies, in my opinion.

The biggest thing I need to hear right now is why OOO is being so belligerent and seemingly oblivious to the fact that he IS being oblivious.

Like look at how he overreacted to me simply asking Hu Tao to explain his actions. I didn't say he was scum; I just asked him to explain. This was met by OOO with "really, fucking really???"

And then like 1 hour later he comes to the same realization as me, realizes it's worth digging into, and votes Hu Tao.

THAT is not genuine. And to me it's the clearest sign yet that he isn't actually trying to make logical arguments to me; he just wants to intimidate me and get me to shut up. Why else would he write such belligerent words towards me about wanting to press Hu Tao and then just decide to do it himself later? Clearly he's up to something.

[SuperfluousNinja]

The biggest thing I need to hear right now is why OOO is being so belligerent and seemingly oblivious to the fact that he IS being oblivious.

*final word should have been belligerent

[SuperfluousNinja]

Okay one more thing and then I'm going to bed for real lol.

Luca, you say OOO has been "genuinely trying to solve the game." But like... He's pushing YOU. And he has BEEN pushing you for all of D2 so far and it seems like a good portion of D1 also. So shouldn't that tell you he's NOT genuinely trying to solve it? His top scumspect is me, and you are claiming I'm one of your strongest town reads! So like, I am confused how or why you think he's trying to solve it if his reads are so wrong (allegedly, of course).

[SuperfluousNinja]

I can't sleep lol.

But I do have an example. You were trying to get on Luca's case for voting Roden, citing the fact that Luca had voted for someone "who was injured". But Luca had clearly cast that vote BEFORE Roden's injury. You can look at the time of his vote and the time of Roden posting that he was injured and see for yourself that this was true.

Nevertheless, you still stuck to your guns that Luca had voted for an inactive person, even though it was clearly demonstrated to you (by both Luca and myself) that his vote happened before, not after, the injury. Unless Luca has the ability to tell the future, you cannot possibly argue that he cast that vote with any knowledge that Roden would be inactive.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I almost forgot the homework assignment I pursued over the night phase. I documented the vote wagon on Dunnstral to see if anything interesting came up. The full history of votes on Dunnstral on Day 1:

Grack - 1st vote on Dunnstral (pg 29)
Darth - 2nd (pg 29)
Hu Tao - 3rd (pg 35)
Oats - 4th (pg 36)
Dannflor - 5th (pg 36)

Then OOO yells at Oats and Dannflor, and Dannflor immediately switches off Dunnstral and votes Roden

That's absolutely very fucking stupid, both of you!!!

Then Darth unvotes (pg 37), followed by Oats (pg 38), followed by Hu Tao (pg 39)
Only Grack is voting Dunnstral at this point

Much later, Grack switches to Gob (pg 62), 0 votes on Dunnstral

On Wednesday, a new Dunnstral vote begins:
Gob - 1st (pg 79)
Vivax - 2nd (pg 79)

Then Vivax switches his vote to Roden (pg 80) which puts Roden at -1
Only Gob on Dunnstral

Voting continues some pages later:
Luca - 2nd (pg 92)
OOO - 3rd (pg 93)

Then OOO hops off Dunnstral to vote Hu Tao, then Darth immediately votes Hu Tao, then OOO immediately puts his vote right back on Dunnstral (pg 94)

Darth - 4th (pg 95), after light encouragement from Oats to vote Dunnstral
Oats - 5th (pg 95)
Vivax - 6th (pg 95) which puts Dunnstral at -1
Dannflor - 7th (pg 97), hammer vote

[SuperfluousNinja]

Some interesting things I noted:

- Vivax pushed the vote to -1 twice and helped to reveal two town alignments. The pushing of Roden to -1 seems very opportunistic, look at this...here was vote #5 on Roden:

VOTE: Roden

Then, 4 posts later, Dannflor makes a point of saying this:

roden is at e-2 right now by my count

Then the very next post is this:

VOTE: Roden

L-1 I think

So yes, you could absolutely argue that that vote switch from Dunnstral to Roden is opportunistic, IMO. I am suspicious of Vivax because of it.

Otherwise, look at just how fast that Dunnstral wagon grew at the end there. The final wagon started on page 92, then it grew into a really serious one on page 95, and the day was over on page 97. I don't think it's crazy to think that the final vote on Dunnstral includes at least one scum, if not two, if not all three... That group is Gob / Luca / OOO / Darth / Oats / Vivax / Dannflor.

Oats definitely sticks out to me also, for piggybacking off of Hu Tao on the very first wagon to cast the 4th vote and not backing off until Dannflor and Darth had backed off, then encouraging Darth to cast the 4th vote on the final wagon and casting the 5th vote himself. Votes that are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, IMO they are a bit less likely to be opportunistic and more coming from an actual read on a person. Votes that are 4th, 5th, 6th, they can easily be interpreted as scum joining a wagon. So yeah I think there's good reason to be suspicious of Oats as a result of this analysis.

The fact that Darth caved so easily is something I haven't made sense of either, but I am still leaning more town on Darth on the moment so I am letting that one go for now.

OOO yelling at Oats and Dannflor is jarring to me and reads almost like he knows something that a lot of us do not. And to be clear, that's obviously not any town power information, since it is day one. Although this was much later in the game, it's notable that after such a forceful statement, he cast the third vote on Dunnstral on the final wagon.

If anyone has any other stuff they glean from this, please add it.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I started with a bullet point and then forgot I was doing bullet points. oops lol

[SuperfluousNinja]

Here is an example of Oats' pedantry, since he asked for it:

think you might be scum based on your recent posting, which doesn't seem genuine and feels very much like you're just lashing out at me because I foiled your case.

Like this is not real, how is the dann case/push foiled when the only other person here is hard pushing dann mafia?
Like I completely don’t understand how you can say this with a straight face being 100% serious

He snips a piece of my post and overly-focuses on the word 'foiled' to entirely dismiss my point out of hand. Even if oats was the only other one there at that moment, and he sides with Darth (which he always does regardless), it does not invalidate the point I was making.

If you have more examples, I would love to see them.

I do feel like something is off about Oats and I'm now leaning scum on Oats I think. It's also jarring to me that he started the game showing himself as a very blunt and aggressive player, but then he has so many other posts where he has thoroughly sterilized his wording, and it seems like the sarcastic jerk persona he had before is totally gone. I haven't made sense of it.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Can anyone explain to me why ht trying to out a counterclaim is something a townie would do?

That’s the second super scummy thing she has done this game , it’s crazy to me how she is just written off as town.

I'm definitely not writing her off as town, and you can count me amongst the ones scratching my head over Hu Tao.

I have an easier time seeing the towniness of the second gambit (the "I have investigative info, U guyz!" gambit) than I do seeing the towniness of the first gambit (the "I am playing like shit on purpose!" gambit). Hu Tao will just tell you, they did this to gauge reactions from people to detect scummy behavior, and that is a townie thing to do. It's just that the first gambit in particular REALLY sounds like an attempt to cover their tracks. Like what are some things a scum might say if they are caught in the act of not contributing well to the game? I think it's clear that "oh, well, I was just playing like shit on purpose to see who wasn't noticing it and then I'd think those people are scummy" is pretty high on that list of excuses you could quickly drum up to try and talk yourself out of the hole. That's why I referred to it as a "dog-ate-my-homework" style of excuse, because it is VERY much like that.

It also just doesn't seem like Hu Tao learned anything interesting from this either. Like I don't think Hu Tao learned ANYTHING from the first gambit at all, which was, if true, a much more concerted and risky maneuver to actually pretend to be scum, so for little, if anything, to have come from that is...odd. And I still think her read on what happened in response to the second gambit makes NO sense at all, they say they read both OOO and myself town because of our reactions to it, and if you plotted our reactions on a plot that scaled from "did almost nothing" to "did as much as humanly possible", OOO and I would be on COMPLETELY different ends of that spectrum, so it REALLY confuses me that both of these reactions could be viewed as "townie".

[SuperfluousNinja]

One last point of discussion on the second Hu Tao gambit: I genuinely believed, and still believe, that anyone who reacted to Hu Tao's day 2 gambit with a bunch of doubt and an onslaught of other leads and other topics of information is suspicious. There was no reason in that moment to think that Hu Tao was either lying or pulling something they'd be able to get away with. I went for a walk outside and gave it a real thorough think, trying to come up with any way whatsoever where Hu Tao could do what they did and come out ahead as a scummy player, and I came up empty. If they had faked a claim on a townie, the yeet would turn up as a townie, and we'd yeet Hu Tao the next day. And if they bussed a scummate, for one we're still yeeting a scum, and two, since the fake investigator claim IS fake, the REAL investigator would for sure raise their eyebrows (having their own private knowledge that there likely aren't TWO town cops) and check Hu Tao, and then they'd be toast (and minus a teammate, too). I am one of the dumber players lol and I was able to figure this out, so I trust pretty much everyone else to realize all of this also. Thus, if anyone at the time was trying to cast doubt on whether this info was useful or wanted to change the subject, that's going to strike me as highly suspicious.

Gonna reread that period now and see if I dig up anything interesting...

[SuperfluousNinja]

VOTE: luca

What are your reasons for voting Luca?

[SuperfluousNinja]

So you are saying that Luca is guilty for keeping the focus on whoever Hu Tao said was guilty? Here's everything Luca had to say about the gambit:

Why are people voting me when Hu Tao said she has a guilty on someone?

I'm going to be busy most of today so won't be around much.

Who should we vote for then?

The person who is supposedly guilty.

You can play normally without necessarily voting, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Well, I've decided this game isn't particularly enjoyable for me and I'm probably going to play like Gob from here out, so fill your boots.

Well, I've decided this game isn't particularly enjoyable for me and I'm probably going to play like Gob from here out, so fill your boots.

What makes you feel this way?
Is it because people think you're mafia (if you're town it shouldn't), or something else?

The fact that half the players are from a different site who are basically ganging up and shouting down everyone else, especially Darth Punk and Oats, you to a lesser extent, Grack and Vivax the least, but they also are more inclined to side the same way.

I think Darth Punk could well be scum, but am I going to waste my time trying to push for him elimination when there is no chance of it being successful in this climate? Hopefully Hu Tao has a guilty on him, as that might change how I feel a little bit.

Going out now.

As I said in my last post, this right here is the exact kind of reaction I expect from town. Why do you think this is NOT how a townie would react?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Hmm i am kinda thinking about the nightkills. Either scum got really lucky or there is person with good analytical mind
makes me kinda sus Dann tbh

The only interesting info you gleaned from all of the voting history on Dunnflor is to hop on the person who hammered?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Dunnflor, holy shit lol. I finally did it.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Can anyone explain to me why ht trying to out a counterclaim is something a townie would do?

That’s the second super scummy thing she has done this game , it’s crazy to me how she is just written off as town.

Another thought I had was that this second gambit was made because Hu Tao thought "I have to pull another gambit to make it seem like I am the kind of player who pulls gambits in this game, which will lend credibility to my first gambit and make it seem less weird".

But I might be getting into deep WIFOM territory on that one.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I can't sleep lol.

But I do have an example. You were trying to get on Luca's case for voting Roden, citing the fact that Luca had voted for someone "who was injured". But Luca had clearly cast that vote BEFORE Roden's injury. You can look at the time of his vote and the time of Roden posting that he was injured and see for yourself that this was true.

Nevertheless, you still stuck to your guns that Luca had voted for an inactive person, even though it was clearly demonstrated to you (by both Luca and myself) that his vote happened before, not after, the injury. Unless Luca has the ability to tell the future, you cannot possibly argue that he cast that vote with any knowledge that Roden would be inactive.

Oats asked for examples and I wrote this 6 minutes later. I can't help but think he definitely saw it and chose not to explain it.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Fair enough, I think my vote needs to be here right now.

VOTE: Oatsmaster

[SuperfluousNinja]

My sus list is otherwise:

Naerys

, for extremely underwhelming contributions and what I feel are illogical arguments. This angle on Luca's reaction to Hu Tao's gambit makes 0 sense.

Vivax

, for the opportunistic voting yesterday, and the tremendous difficulty I've had really all game long in grokking anything he has said.

OutOfOrder

, for using what I think are very clear oppression tactics that only scum would be interested in.

I also lean a little scum on Hu Tao at the moment, but right now my scum reads are strongest on Oats and the 3 I mentioned above.

My town pool at the moment is

Luca / Darth / Dannflor / Grack / Gob

.

[SuperfluousNinja]

That's great, but like, why would we yeet anyone other than whoever Hu Tao mentions today?

Really depends on their claim

I'd really like to see an explanation for this one. What is the dependency where we don't take Hu Tao seriously? What scenario is that?

[SuperfluousNinja]

My sus list is otherwise:

Naerys

, for extremely underwhelming contributions and what I feel are illogical arguments. This angle on Luca's reaction to Hu Tao's gambit makes 0 sense.

Vivax

, for the opportunistic voting yesterday, and the tremendous difficulty I've had really all game long in grokking anything he has said.

OutOfOrder

, for using what I think are very clear oppression tactics that only scum would be interested in.

I also lean a little scum on Hu Tao at the moment, but right now my scum reads are strongest on Oats and the 3 I mentioned above.

My town pool at the moment is

Luca / Darth / Dannflor / Grack / Gob

.

I've noticed that as soon as Darth spouted suspicion on me, you vivax and ooo also did the same. You just had me as town and you're now overthinking to find a way I could be scum here.

That's not entirely accurate. I did say this right after you revealed your actual intentions, which I asked well before Darth spouted that recent suspicion:

....

So I guess that's actually why I'm a bit confused why you think both OOO and myself reacted "well" or whatever word you choose here. Why do you say that, Hu Tao?

And I'm definitely not trying to "find a way you could be scum"; I would actually love to move you out of null territory which is effectively where I have you right now.

Also, think about what you're saying there about me teaming up with either Vivax or OOO. I just put them down as scum in my most recent post and gave my reasons for it.

[SuperfluousNinja]

....

Uh. You know roden claimed jk right

no, i must have missed that
i dont keep up with that mass of posts you people are producing

This information is in the very first post.

[SuperfluousNinja]

....

Uh. You know roden claimed jk right

no, i must have missed that
i dont keep up with that mass of posts you people are producing

This information is in the very first post.

what?

The very first post tells you the alignment of everyone who is dead. You'll see Roden there, marked as Jailkeeper.

You say you're thinking about the night kills, yes? So you're thinking about this after we would have gotten our chance to see Roden's alignment, not to mention that Roden had claimed being jailkeeper during day 1 also. But if you were really interested in putting some thought into the nightkills and wondering how and why they happened like they did, why wouldn't one of the very first things you do, if not THE first thing, be to check the role of the person who died?

[SuperfluousNinja]

It’s illegal to try to be nicer now?

Oats, I would really think hard about these kinds of responses you are giving me (and Luca).

If you're town, what is this accomplishing? Why wouldn't you have just said "I am indeed trying to be nicer; I realized I was being too confrontational before and that wasn't helping, so I am making more of an active effort to be nice now."

I obviously didn't say it was "illegal". I'm just saying it struck me as odd. You are strawmanning what I am saying and discussing in bad faith when you do stuff like this.

Like, for real, what are you hoping I get out of reading these words you wrote? Do you not think I'd get the least bit frustrated by you strawmanning my point? Do you think that using a tone of antagonism is helpful? Because I personally feel like it should be incredibly obvious that it isn't.

If you think I'm town, you shouldn't be wanting to antagonize me. And if you think I'm scum, you have to be able to make better arguments than strawmen like these. The angle of "Ninja is scum because she is arguing that a law was passed that makes it a crime to be nice, and I know that no such law was passed, so she's clearly lying." Once you really drill down into what you are saying, that is the argument you are making. Do you see now how incredibly absurd it is?

[SuperfluousNinja]

You say you're thinking about the night kills, yes? So you're thinking about this after we would have gotten our chance to see Roden's alignment, not to mention that Roden had claimed being jailkeeper during day 1 also. But if you were really interested in putting some thought into the nightkills and wondering how and why they happened like they did, why wouldn't one of the very first things you do, if not THE first thing, be to check the role of the person who died?

You are confusing me. I knew that Roden flipped jk i just didnt know he claimed it.

I see, I was maybe misunderstanding things. So when you're looking into how scum "got lucky", you're wondering how they got lucky killing the JAILKEEPER specifically. I thought you might have meant that they got lucky getting a kill, period.

[SuperfluousNinja]

What are your reasons for voting Luca?

Bad reaction to Hu Tao´s experiment. Got overly defensive imo

Yeah, this makes no sense.

I was being voted by multiple people while we were seemingly waiting for a guilty result, so i questioned the sudden votes on me.

How can that in any way be interpreted as being overly defensive to the '

experiment

'?

This, btw, is a great point that needs to be addressed. What does it have to do with the gambit / experiment itself?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Not sure where you are getting that I’m calling you mafia?

Read what I wrote more carefully. The point of everything I said there was to say, no matter what my alignment is, your actions here are bad. THAT is what I am saying.

Also not sure why I cannot be annoyed with what you write but you are allowed to be annoyed with what other people write

There's a difference between simply being annoyed with what someone writes and actually manifesting that annoyance into a troublesome relationship with someone. I am plenty annoyed with you, like 110%, but I am still actively working to smooth things out with you. Whereas you are annoyed and just trying to antagonize. That's the difference.

I'm expending a lot of energy trying to manage your personality here that I should be redirecting towards the game. But if I don't do this, it's going to continue being a problem for the duration of this game. It's entirely possible that you are indeed town but just have an abrasive personality and don't seem to have the ability to have good faith conversations with people. The problem is, it's also possible you're doing this as scum to piss people off, spoil conversations, make people turn against each other, create an awful environment for solving the game. So it's really important that we work through this here.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Yeah you are literally scumreading me for changing how I’m typing.

I'm scumreading you for how contentious you are being with everything. I think it's a scum tactic to do that.

Not sure why I have to read more carefully. Maybe you should type more carefully if that’s not what you mean.

Only way to settle that one is to see if others are able to read it and parse out what I meant.

I invite everyone in this thread to read this and see if you think any part of it could be interpreted as me being concerned that Oats thinks I am scum:

Oats, I would really think hard about these kinds of responses you are giving me (and Luca).

If you're town, what is this accomplishing? Why wouldn't you have just said "I am indeed trying to be nicer; I realized I was being too confrontational before and that wasn't helping, so I am making more of an active effort to be nice now."

I obviously didn't say it was "illegal". I'm just saying it struck me as odd. You are strawmanning what I am saying and discussing in bad faith when you do stuff like this.

Like, for real, what are you hoping I get out of reading these words you wrote? Do you not think I'd get the least bit frustrated by you strawmanning my point? Do you think that using a tone of antagonism is helpful? Because I personally feel like it should be incredibly obvious that it isn't.

If you think I'm town, you shouldn't be wanting to antagonize me. And if you think I'm scum, you have to be able to make better arguments than strawmen like these. The angle of "Ninja is scum because she is arguing that a law was passed that makes it a crime to be nice, and I know that no such law was passed, so she's clearly lying." Once you really drill down into what you are saying, that is the argument you are making. Do you see now how incredibly absurd it is?

Personally I don't see what part of this could be construed as me having any concern whatsoever over Oats reading me as mafia. If you're able to identify what it is, please tell me.

If nobody can do this, then Oats, your "maybe you should type more carefully" comment clearly doesn't stand.

I’m also not sure how my illegal to be nice comment is”manifesting the relationship into a troublesome relationship”.

Because I never said it was ILLEGAL for people to suddenly become nice. You've already twisted the wording from "illegal to try to be nicer" into "illegal to be nice", which is, again, bad faith. You went out of your way to portray things incorrectly and you are making no effort at all to try and smooth things over with me. I want us to move to a more diplomatic place. Do you?

Do you understand how it is hurtful to town to discuss in bad faith, to be contentious for no reason? Do you understand why teamwork will help us?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm expending a lot of energy trying to manage your personality here that I should be redirecting towards the game. But if I don't do this, it's going to continue being a problem for the duration of this game.

How is this consistent with this

I do feel like something is off about Oats and I'm now leaning scum on Oats I think. It's also jarring to me that he started the game showing himself as a very blunt and aggressive player, but then he has so many other posts where he has thoroughly sterilized his wording, and it seems like the sarcastic jerk persona he had before is totally gone. I haven't made sense of it.

The connection here is that I have indeed identified something being off with the way you are acting, and thus I am expending this energy to figure out whether this is just the way you are or if you're doing this to add chaos to town.

[SuperfluousNinja]

So saying “oh i wouldn’t bus roden look I voted for him at the start” isn’t a good argument when you realistically have no way to get off roden without looking terrible when he flips

I see your point. Even though he cast the vote before the injury, it still

becomes

meaningful after the injury happens and the vote doesn't move off during the period of inactivity.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I would like to look very closely at vivax todsu

Let's switch gears. You said this and I agree. Do you think there's anything interesting in the fact that Vivax pushed both the Roden and the Dunnstral wagons to -1?

[SuperfluousNinja]

It’s illegal to try to be nicer now?

Oats, I would really think hard about these kinds of responses you are giving me (and Luca).

If you're town, what is this accomplishing? Why wouldn't you have just said "I am indeed trying to be nicer; I realized I was being too confrontational before and that wasn't helping, so I am making more of an active effort to be nice now."

I obviously didn't say it was "illegal". I'm just saying it struck me as odd. You are strawmanning what I am saying and discussing in bad faith when you do stuff like this.

Like, for real, what are you hoping I get out of reading these words you wrote? Do you not think I'd get the least bit frustrated by you strawmanning my point? Do you think that using a tone of antagonism is helpful? Because I personally feel like it should be incredibly obvious that it isn't.

If you think I'm town, you shouldn't be wanting to antagonize me. And if you think I'm scum, you have to be able to make better arguments than strawmen like these. The angle of "Ninja is scum because she is arguing that a law was passed that makes it a crime to be nice, and I know that no such law was passed, so she's clearly lying." Once you really drill down into what you are saying, that is the argument you are making. Do you see now how incredibly absurd it is?

Not sure where you are getting that I’m calling you mafia?

Doesn't look like it to me.

Anyway I don't want to be talking about this anymore, and I'll be heading to my Super Bowl party shortly. I'll await whatever insight you might have on Vivax.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I think I might have settled on Gob / Naerys / Grack as the scum team.

[SuperfluousNinja]

[/unvote]

[SuperfluousNinja]

UNVOTE:

[SuperfluousNinja]

In the game Werewolf (also known as Mafia), there isn't a single "best" way to detect a werewolf because the game heavily relies on deduction, psychology, and social dynamics. However, there are some strategies that players commonly use to identify werewolves:

Observation: Pay close attention to players' behavior during discussions and voting phases. Look for inconsistencies, nervousness, or overly defensive reactions, which might indicate that a player is a werewolf.

Questioning: Ask players targeted questions to gauge their reactions and responses. For example, you might ask them to explain their actions during previous rounds or to clarify their voting decisions.

Voting Patterns: Analyze voting patterns to identify suspicious players. If someone consistently votes against innocent villagers or seems to be influencing others to vote a certain way, they may be a werewolf.

Role Interaction: Consider how different roles interact with each other. For example, the Seer might have valuable information about certain players' roles, while the werewolves might try to eliminate the Seer early in the game to protect their identity.

Process of Elimination: Narrow down the list of potential werewolves by systematically eliminating innocent players. Focus on players who are contributing less to discussions or seem to be avoiding scrutiny.

Psychological Tactics: Use psychological tactics such as bluffing, misdirection, or provocation to elicit revealing reactions from other players. However, be mindful that these tactics can backfire if used excessively or without subtlety.

Team Dynamics: Pay attention to how players interact with each other and form alliances. Werewolves may subtly signal to each other or protect their teammates during discussions and voting.

Information Gathering: Gather as much information as possible throughout the game, including players' claims, voting records, and any special abilities or events that occur. This information can help you make informed decisions about who might be a werewolf.

Ultimately, there is no foolproof method for detecting werewolves in the game, as it heavily relies on deception and manipulation. Success often depends on your ability to read other players, analyze information, and adapt your strategy as the game progresses.

This post has been mainly made using AI

[SuperfluousNinja]

I don‘t see how gob is mafia trying to win the game over being fuck all not trying to solve it at all.

You haven't considered the possibility that gob can sit back and see how wrong the reads are and decide he doesn't need to.

I think it is entirely plausible that Darth, Luca, maybe even Oats and Vivax all get yeeted. I think it's totally possible that I do too. And I think it's not unreasonable to think that Darth, Luca, Oats, and Vivax are indeed all town. Add me to the mix and that's 5 misyeets that could happen.

Look at how little interest there is in going after Gob, or Naerys, or Grack. If I'm right and that really is the scum team, then why would they need to do anything? Let these big minds who are eager to find the deepwolves and who want to feel like bona fide Inspector Gadgets / Poirots / Sherlock Holmeses dig deep and play hero ball in the fourth quarter while the actual scum team just sits back with their cocktails and watches town destroy each other. I think it's become pretty obvious that this is exactly what is happening, since we have a near-record length of discussion on day 1, we have 120 pages of stuff so far, and after nearly 3000 posts, I personally feel like we aren't even close to solving this at all.

The only thing I can think of that makes sense of all that is to conclude that the scum team is lurking and is more than happy to do so.

[SuperfluousNinja]

VOTE: Gob

Really interesting how you suddenly ate your Wheaties after I redirected some attention your way. Time to eat your Yeeties instead, brotato chip.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Okay so if Luca’s frustration is real, then he really thinks I’m town, therefore he’s mafia.

This one doesn't add up. Why couldn't Luca be town and be frustrated with you for suspecting him, with the source of his frustration being that he is being incorrectly classified as scum?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Well anyway, I'm going to bed, here's my reads list:

TOWN
Luca
Darth
Dannflor
Hu Tao
Oatsmaster
Vivax
Outoforder

SCUM
Grackaroni
Gob
Naerys

I'm just going to stop pretending like I'm so smart and that there's some deepwolf amongst Luca / Darth / Dann / Hu Tao / Oats / Vivax / OOO, thinking that any one of them has pulled off this amazing feat of tons of participation and analysis. I decided it really is not a coincidence that there is actually this really, REALLY wide gap between the level of effort of a pool of 3 people and the rest of the players in this game. Seriously, Luca / Darth / Dann / Hu Tao / Oats / Vivax / OOO have each done a LOT in this game, said a lot, put a lot of effort into this. If you scored participation / effort on a scale of 0 to 100, with 0 being zero effort and 100 being the absolute most effort, realize that these scores look like 0 (Gob), 1 (Naerys), 20 (Grack), 80+ for everyone else. What a freakin' COINCIDENCE that there happen to be three people on one side of this massive gap! Like wow, just, what an incredible coincidence.

Or that's the scum team and this is gg. I'd like to think it's the latter.

Good night.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Look at the post count of everyone right now and tell me it doesn't tell a really fucking interesting story.

Dann - 243
Darth - 416
Hu Tao - 263
Luca - 214
Oats - 346
OOO - 358
Hot girl - 271
Vivax - 279

Gob - 161 (and if we're counting actual substantive posts, it's more like...20)
Grack - 91
Naerys - 51

Tell me I'm not on to something here.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Okay so if Luca’s frustration is real, then he really thinks I’m town, therefore he’s mafia.

This one doesn't add up. Why couldn't Luca be town and be frustrated with you for suspecting him, with the source of his frustration being that he is being incorrectly classified as scum?

He thinks I’m scum.
…

You've never seen any courtroom drama on TV or in the movies where the prosecutor is frustrated with the guilty defendant who has taken the stand?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Okay so if Luca’s frustration is real, then he really thinks I’m town, therefore he’s mafia.

This one doesn't add up. Why couldn't Luca be town and be frustrated with you for suspecting him, with the source of his frustration being that he is being incorrectly classified as scum?

He thinks I’m scum.
…

You've never seen any courtroom drama on TV or in the movies where the prosecutor is frustrated with the guilty defendant who has taken the stand?

Fiction?

Okay. You've never seen a frustrated mom interrogate the child with crumbs on her shirt over where the cookies went? You don't think there's a universe where such a mentality could exist?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Also, the reason I'm frustrated is because it's just so damn blatant, yet I feel as though if I don't repeatedly point it out then people will just glance at it and think Oats countered the argument effectively, not realising what he's actually doing.

Oats is just having trouble understanding that his approach and actions could be flawed in some way. Clearly he doesn't think he did anything wrong. How could anyone be upset over his immaculate, flawless actions? That's his actual mentality here. He doesn't think you could possibly have any reason to be frustrated because he legitimately believes he's acting perfectly and without error.

I would just acknowledge the arrogance of his attitude and put it behind you, to be honest.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Post count does give an idea of how engaged everybody is.

TL posters can post quite a bit. OutofOrder had 700 posts in his last scum game. (around 14 real life days). DP will post a lot as either alignment. Oats I don't associate with having a large ISO but I haven't seen him play in years.

I usually host games, but when I do play I tend to be one of the least active posters.

Never argue statistics with a statistician. You'll lose up to 100% of the time.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Ninja, do you get the sense that Oats is actually trying to solve the game rather than just win arguments?

I think he wants both.

I understand the mentality. I have a hard time letting things go too, I'll be the first to admit it. You can be focused on an important goal and consciously aware of how important it is, and yet your brain will still tell you "naw man, put that aside and let em know you're not to be messed with!" I have this ego war with myself all the time. It's mostly that one can happen without intent while the other can happen with the strongest of intent. I believe both can happen simultaneously.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Okay so if Luca’s frustration is real, then he really thinks I’m town, therefore he’s mafia.

This one doesn't add up. Why couldn't Luca be town and be frustrated with you for suspecting him, with the source of his frustration being that he is being incorrectly classified as scum?

He thinks I’m scum.
…

You've never seen any courtroom drama on TV or in the movies where the prosecutor is frustrated with the guilty defendant who has taken the stand?

Fiction?

Okay. You've never seen a frustrated mom interrogate the child with crumbs on her shirt over where the cookies went? You don't think there's a universe where such a mentality could exist?

Because the child isn’t mafia that we want to kill?
The mom is trying to get her kid to admit guilt and that can be frustrating.

How is it frustrating telling a scum person that he’s scum?
I mean this argument is the same level as many of the other arguments that have been made in this game

What does that have to do with goats? I'm confused.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Actually scratch that post, disregard. Let's focus on this.

The mom is trying to get her kid to admit guilt and that can be frustrating.

Yeah? Why's that?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I asked first.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Like, for real man, how could it possibly be frustrating for the mom to talk to her kid about who stole the cookies when she has evidence of the kid's guilt? Shouldn't this evidence mean that nothing in their interaction would lead to frustration?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Answer the question.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Grack please, with all due respect, stay out of this. Don't give him someone to complain to.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Like, for real man, how could it possibly be frustrating for the mom to talk to her kid about who stole the cookies when she has evidence of the kid's guilt? Shouldn't this evidence mean that nothing in their interaction would lead to frustration?

This is the question.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Oats your angle is that you don't think Luca could possibly get frustrated with someone they think is guilty. You're trying to make the logical assertion that people who suspect guilt in others should not have any reason to get frustrated with the other person.

My angle here is just to show you why that's not a logical conclusion you can make, and I think you actually have the answer why within you. I just need to connect you to whatever thought process you had in the cookie analogy, where you conceded that a mom trying to get to the bottom of the cookie theft issue could conceivably get frustrated with her top suspect. Whatever reasons you are aware of that caused her to get frustrated, they can almost certainly also apply to Luca.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Like, for real man, how could it possibly be frustrating for the mom to talk to her kid about who stole the cookies when she has evidence of the kid's guilt? Shouldn't this evidence mean that nothing in their interaction would lead to frustration?

The mom is trying to get her kid to admit guilt and that can be frustrating.

WHY, Oats? WHY can it be frustrating?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Please just answer the question. Why is it frustrating for the mom?

[SuperfluousNinja]

So what if the kid doesn't want to admit guilt? She knows he's guilty. So what does she have to be frustrated about?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Ninja - Her posts are painful to read, and I completely disagree with her a lot of the time. She just looks openly lost to me, and I think mafia will try and pretend that they aren't (like luca)

Can you tell me which of my posts are "painful to read"? Can you explain in detail where any of my logic is wrong?

Hopefully you have more than just "see, in this post, you suggest Luca is town, and he isn't".

[SuperfluousNinja]

Can you read it again and actually understand the posts before you make a conclusion. I know it is dense, but I find it supremely unfair that you basically don't understand what is happening and then are drawing and sharing a conclusion about it.

Like I really don't know how I am supposed to defend myself against that when you can't understand the case and then call me mafia for the case you don't understand...

That's pretty fucking poor form from grack, you can take him firmly out of my town read section based on that alone.

Frankly, you need to tone it down and cool off.

This kind of rhetoric is not helpful to town. You're brow-beating us with this. I understand being frustrated but I don't understand not realizing that this kind of rhetoric makes people not want to both talk to you or even play this game.

Tell me this: is it a scum tactic to brow-beat people and intimidate them into shutting up? If so, then why are YOU employing the tactic? That's not a rhetorical question. I want an answer.

[SuperfluousNinja]

1.) Ninja makes a bad post with inherent contradictions. (doesn't matter what or who this is about)

This is just insulting. Prove this point.

If you still can't follow after that grack I have no fucking clue what to say.

Why not just say "you're mafia" and be done with it instead of getting so pissed off?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Look at how little interest there is in going after Gob, or Naerys, or Grack. If I'm right and that really is the scum team, then why would they need to do anything

right, gob is my buddy and thats why i want to yeet him

Why do you want to yeet him? What specifics can you point to that make him seem yeet-worthy?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Anyway I need to have breakfast, though it's a miracle I can even fucking feed myself, apparently.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Why do you want to yeet him? What specifics can you point to that make him seem yeet-worthy?

i think town gob usually spouts some nonsense
but this gob feels rather manipulative

Can I ask you to set aside some time, whenever is convenient for you, and make a better and more thorough case than this?

[SuperfluousNinja]

@Oats

If it is true, as you say, that a person should never get frustrated with the person they are talking to

when they suspect that person is scum

, then shouldn't that make you suspicious of Darth? Though he dropped a post excluding Luca from his scum pool, he then followed it with a post saying Luca is so clearly scummy, he's "appalled" anyone would think otherwise (which is a different issue I'll address otherwise). He is pretty clearly frustrated with both Grack and Luca, and he scumreads them both.

If you say that that sort of behavior is a scum tell, does that mean you now scum read Darth?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I’m thinking grack/gob/vivax for the last mafia slot.

It’s going to be really fun reading Luca try and backtrack from mislimming me if I flip.

Probably he will just push oats. This guy has not adjusted a scum read since early day one when he didn’t have scum reads.

He is just mafia.

I’m appalled at the play of everyone who town reads him.

These posts contradict each other. You exclude Luca from your scum pool, but then you say you are APPALLED that anyone could town read him!

Explain?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Ah okay, I read it as a Grack / Gob / Vivax team.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I hope you have a good day Luca. Thank you for being nice to me lol

[SuperfluousNinja]

If you all want me to sheep on a Luca vote, I probably will at this point. It seems like the most informative flip we could be making right now.

[SuperfluousNinja]

If you all want me to sheep on a Luca vote, I probably will at this point. It seems like the most informative flip we could be making right now.

What will your view of the game be after I flip town?

I would be extremely suspicious of Darth and Oats if you flipped town.

I don't think it would change my mind on OOO since he seems to at least have good reasoning for everything, whereas it seems like Darth's case on you is built largely on emotion and overplaying his read on things, and Oats is just trying to frustrate you and everyone else to make you look worse.

[SuperfluousNinja]

If you all want me to sheep on a Luca vote, I probably will at this point. It seems like the most informative flip we could be making right now.

Btw, what sparked this comment anyway?

Wouldn't Darth be as informative a flip as my own, if not more so? I would definitely say more so, given his connections to other tl members, especially the likes of Oats who has been backing him up every step of the way. I also got the impression that you townread me more than Darth, so I'm just a little puzzled by this.

I don't think there's much interest in a Darth yeet, not by the major players. More importantly, he will beat the living shit out of everyone who tries to make a case on him. That includes myself. And I just can't and won't deal with that.

[SuperfluousNinja]

But maybe you're right Luca, maybe I just need a pep talk lol. The day is young.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Can you read it again and actually understand the posts before you make a conclusion. I know it is dense, but I find it supremely unfair that you basically don't understand what is happening and then are drawing and sharing a conclusion about it.

Like I really don't know how I am supposed to defend myself against that when you can't understand the case and then call me mafia for the case you don't understand...

That's pretty fucking poor form from grack, you can take him firmly out of my town read section based on that alone.

Frankly, you need to tone it down and cool off.

This kind of rhetoric is not helpful to town. You're brow-beating us with this. I understand being frustrated but I don't understand not realizing that this kind of rhetoric makes people not want to both talk to you or even play this game.

Tell me this: is it a scum tactic to brow-beat people and intimidate them into shutting up? If so, then why are YOU employing the tactic? That's not a rhetorical question. I want an answer.

I don’t think I am out of line here, particularly as I know grack from my site.

I don’t think it’s your role to police my interactions with grack or my interactions at all, particularly when I know I have not crossed any lines.

I really wished you left this stuff to the hosts.

Like a not insignificant amount of your contributions seem to be stuff like this which is tiresome and not actually playing the game.

If grack has an issue he is welcome to raise it with me or the host.

You're avoiding answering my question by pretending this is about moderation. It isn't. I'd prefer if you just answered my question.

I'll ask it again: is it, or is it not, a scum tactic to use intimidation and forceful rhetoric, rather than simply sterile reasoning, when talking to people?

[SuperfluousNinja]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

LOL. Gotta admit you make a great point.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I’m appalled at the play of everyone who town reads him.

You ask where you've been toxic? This is Exhibit A. You're telling everyone that has a read that differs from yours that you are "appalled by their play". That is toxic. Even if it's really how you feel, it is still toxic.

I mean, as town, you should know better than this. You don't want to demoralize town, not EVER, and sure someone who has played as long as you have knows that. Zeus knows how difficult it is to sort through games like this and how easy it is to get fired up, so if you're really on the side of order and not on the side of chaos, you should have zero interest in saying stuff like this that could only serve to make townies feel worse about themselves.

And please stop acting like I'm bringing this up because I think it breaks the rules. I'm aware of what is allowed in this game. Everything I'm bringing up in here is to help me scum read you; it's not from some angle that I want the mod to straighten you out or some such thing. If I actually think that's happening, I have the ability to DM the mod and take it up privately, and I WOULD do that privately if I had an actual concern about rules being broken. I wouldn't do that HERE.

[SuperfluousNinja]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

Please. You portray me like this helpless child who is unable to control my emotions and can be easily manipulated. Stop with this angle, it's not true.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Case in point, Luca and I have been doing that to each other and we can’t both be mafia.

But I'm not talking about what you two say to each other. I'm talking about how you talk to town. This "all yall should be appalled if you disagree" statement that applies to all of us, not just to the person you're talking to. Luca has not tried to make town as a whole feel like morons. You have. There's a stark difference.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Hey Oats. You spent a lot of time last night saying that if a person gets frustrated with a person they think is scum, that frustration is not genuine and is a scum tell.

How do you apply that logic to this Luca vs Darth debacle?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Hey Oats. You spent a lot of time last night saying that if a person gets frustrated with a person they think is scum, that frustration is not genuine and is a scum tell.

How do you apply that logic to this Luca vs Darth debacle?

Not applicable

How could it not be? They both think the other is scum, they both get frustrated with it.

I need to understand your application of this logic to figure out if it is legitimate. If you're going to apply it to Luca's approach to you, but you aren't going to apply it to Luca's approach to DP or DP's approach to Luca, I don't really have any other logical conclusion than that you're being inconsistent and I'll scum read you for it.

It IS the same situation. It's a player thinking another player is scum and getting frustrated with that person. It's clear as day to me.

[SuperfluousNinja]

But also, if you're only going to address one thing, address Luca's.

[SuperfluousNinja]

In the meantime, this is where I want my vote to be for the time being.

VOTE: DarthPunk

This is E-2, by the way.

[SuperfluousNinja]

No lol. It's not a coincidence I vote for him after his most recent contributions.

FWIW I absolutely positively do not want him yeeted while he's asleep, and if anyone pushes him to -1 right now, I'm canceling my vote.

[SuperfluousNinja]

In fact I am having second thoughts about this, now that I think about it some more. There's a chance, actually maybe a pretty good chance, that you're both town.

And if that's true, holy shit have we ever handed scum a great play. Yeet one of you today, and when whoever we flip flips town, we immediately go after the other. We are literally grounding into a double play here. They follow through on that, and voila, we are only one misyeet away from gg at that point.

I don't like it.

UNVOTE:

[SuperfluousNinja]

I don't think any of us want more Luca vs Oats. I'm probably not even going to try reading any of it, tbh. I've read it before.

So I'd like to get back to what I argued earlier:

Hey Oats. You spent a lot of time last night saying that if a person gets frustrated with a person they think is scum, that frustration is not genuine and is a scum tell.

How do you apply that logic to this Luca vs Darth debacle?

Not applicable

How could it not be? They both think the other is scum, they both get frustrated with it.

I need to understand your application of this logic to figure out if it is legitimate. If you're going to apply it to Luca's approach to you, but you aren't going to apply it to Luca's approach to DP or DP's approach to Luca, I don't really have any other logical conclusion than that you're being inconsistent and I'll scum read you for it.

It IS the same situation. It's a player thinking another player is scum and getting frustrated with that person. It's clear as day to me.

[SuperfluousNinja]

you guys have been going back and forth for so long, there is literally no meaningful way to interqct with luca and oats.
Also ninjas massive posts got to stop asap. Not even joking. theyre wayy too long

I haven't done that in a week, have I?

[SuperfluousNinja]

These out of game reasons, are these sensitive life details you know about Darth that you don't want to divulge?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm not answering your question until you answer mine. Which was:

These out of game reasons, are these sensitive life details you know about Darth that you don't want to divulge?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Or, to get more to the point, Oats, why would Darth be allowed to have out of game reasons to excuse what you find to be scummy behavior, but Luca isn't? How do you know that whatever out-of-game stuff is affecting Darth and causing him to perform an action you view as scummy, that such things aren't also affecting Luca?

[SuperfluousNinja]

And to be clear, I really don't want to talk about out of game stuff, I have zero interest in the sensitive details, it is not my business. But it was your choice to cite out-of-game stuff to justify in-game behavior, not mine, so I'm going to follow through on that (and we don't need to discuss anything sensitive to do so).

[SuperfluousNinja]

I mean my personal view on this is, if you really do have out-of-game stuff affecting how you play, you really shouldn't even BE playing. I have to make the good faith assumption that everyone here is able to handle being here, that they don't get a free pass for scummy behavior because of real-life things affecting them.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I think I might have settled on Gob / Naerys / Grack as the scum team.

I'm interested, as long as it's not post count related

It is effort-related. I threw in the numbers as a point of reference, but if you review ISOs, you'll see why they rank so low on effort.

It's also largely a process-of-elimination thing for me. The more I see Darth, Luca, even Oats just post and post and post, the more I think they are town. I have a hard time reading Luca, Darth, OOO, Oats, you (Hu Tao), Dannflor, or Vivax as anything other than town, as they repeatedly search, scour, interrogate, bring up this fact, that logic, that post, etc.

Grack is up there too, but I read his ISO and it feels more like a Netflix movie to me compared to a theatrical release. Like it just feels more like a cheap substitute. Too friendly, quite sterile, nothing that really makes me think he's really interested in solving.

Gob is not even trying to play this game. I'm opting to actually try to see the truth staring me in the face, that he really just is scum and is pulling a fast one on us.

Naerys is even more underwhelming. Notice how fast she vanished when I asked her for more of a case on Gob than the 1 sentence of feels she gave me? She wants a free pass just because she suspects someone I also think is guilty, as if bussing isn't a thing. Making no case whatsoever on the person you're bussing is pretty par for the course.

If I'm wrong about any of those three, I'm leaning hardest on Oats being the third. I uncovered inconsistent use of logic on his part, and he runs away from it. Plus, like, let's not forget that his first real move in this game was to push hard on a confirmed townie.

[SuperfluousNinja]

And yes, 2939 is the ChatGPT response to "how do you detect wolves in werewolf? lol. It was tongue in cheek in its context but also perhaps maybe useful.

[SuperfluousNinja]

OOO I can't believe you initially thought that would take "a couple minutes". lol

[SuperfluousNinja]

Okay I'm caught up. I'm for a DP vote. I'm unsure the vote count right now since it was wrong earlier

If not DP, who are the other two you'd want to lim?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I’m saying darth is frustrated at Luca for out of game reasons, not that darth has out of game reasons which is leading to him behind frustrated………………………:.::

He isn't, though. He's frustrated with Luca for things he said in this game, that pertain directly to this game.

Show me a single non-game-related thing that he's frustrated with Luca about.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I’m saying darth is frustrated at Luca for out of game reasons, not that darth has out of game reasons which is leading to him behind frustrated………………………:.::

He isn't, though. He's frustrated with Luca for things he said in this game, that pertain directly to this game.

Show me a single non-game-related thing that he's frustrated with Luca about.

Okay that last post is literally the last time I’m talking about it, either you agree with me or you don’t. Either way this stops.

Scumread it is, then.

[SuperfluousNinja]

VOTE: OatsMaster

I encourage everyone else to jump aboard the Choo Choo Oats train and I'm more than happy to go into detail why.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Im not votin Oatsmaster

Alright, why not?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I see. Well how could anyone hope to dispute such an unassailable argument?

[SuperfluousNinja]

i be doing gay shit lowkey

I've done plenty of gay shit with my girlfriends. It's quite fun.

[SuperfluousNinja]

also

Please mark any posts made with generative AI as such, remember that generative AI is not a way to replace your role in playing the game, please refer to the site rules section on the topic

yes this even goes for comedy purposes

My bad. Sorry. Post 2939 was indeed AI-generated.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Naerys is even more underwhelming. Notice how fast she vanished when I asked her for more of a case on Gob than the 1 sentence of feels she gave me? She wants a free pass just because she suspects someone I also think is guilty, as if bussing isn't a thing. Making no case whatsoever on the person you're bussing is pretty par for the course.

If u cant respect that i dont sit at this game 24 hours per day then meh, i dont feel like answering to you questions

The point is that there's a LOT of space between "sitting at this game 24 hours a day" and what you are doing, though.

[SuperfluousNinja]

If misnaming is on the table then I reserve the right to call you Gob Bluth for the rest of this game.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Luca and Ninja scum together seems impossible to me. They work together too obviously when it comes to derailing the thread.

Look I promise I am done doing what I was doing against Oats. The fact that it was WITH Luca is not the important part here. I needed to know what Oats' deal was, why he was being stubborn on what seems like a lot of really low-stakes stuff, trying to see if we could just talk through a read, be logical about it, come to an understanding. And to make an admittedly enormous story short, he won't, so I'm content to just scum read him and leave it at that. He had his chance to admit that his logic didn't add up and that his read strategy is faulty, and he did everything in his power to avoid having to admit it. So he's just scum in my book.

But for real, you won't see that from me again. I got the answer I needed.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Okay Vivax, but realize that there are at least 4 of us in this game that have done that: Luca, Darth, Oats, myself. All four of us have engaged in conversations with each other that we found exceedingly unpleasant. There are probably even more than us and our connections, but with there being at least 4, you can't argue it is for sure a scum tell to engage with someone you don't like talking to, since at least one of us is town.

Personally I have done it because I consider the greater good to be the truth, and I'll endure unpleasantness to get there. I can't speak for the rest.

[SuperfluousNinja]

TOWN
Luca
Darth
Dannflor
Hu Tao
OOO
Vivax

SCUM
Grack
Gob
Naerys
Oats

That's where I am. Gonna spend my mafia time on deep diving the votes and reads lists of those four, see if anything sticks out, see what team makes sense, if any team of 3 emerges.

I feel pretty confident in those town reads and have basically no interest in pushing a yeet on any of those town reads today, I think. Something awfully drastic would need to happen. But my reads feel pretty converged into this state.

If anyone gives a hoot. lol

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm more than happy to hammer Gob when the time comes, FYI.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm more than happy to hammer Gob when the time comes, FYI.

Can you tell me what you thought of my summary of Nearys from a while ago, I see you still have her as mafia and I don't think that is right.

Can you quote that summary for me? Or tell me the post number?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Got it. I see it now.

Re: the first point about Luca being "defensive" in response to Hu Tao's gambit, that's not entirely accurate. Here's the first thing Luca said after Hu Tao suggested they had a guilty:

Why are people voting me when Hu Tao said she has a guilty on someone?

I'm going to be busy most of today so won't be around much.

Even though he's referring to himself, the intent here seems to be a lot more about why people are starting a wagon when we anticipate an investigator guilty read later. And that's a totally legitimate question to ask.

As for the stuff about Naerys not knowing everything that happened with Roden, yes, that makes her less likely to be scum. If anything, I would have expected her to talk to her teammates overnight where all the relevant game info would be discussed. But we can't rule out the possibility that she's playing some 4D chess with us and intentionally acting like she has no idea what is going on in order to make us feel this way. But like...I admit that's less likely.

My scum pool is Naerys / Gob / Grack / Oats. Obviously I'm wrong about at least 1 of them. Naerys is the only one of the four voting for someone else in that pool, so based on votes alone, that certainly suggests that she's the one I'm wrong about here.

[SuperfluousNinja]

No. Too tired this evening

[SuperfluousNinja]

Luca only considers people who call him mafia.

Btw, I think just about every person in this game has called me mafia at one point or another, with the exception of Ninja (and even she has expressed a willingness to vote me), so it's inevitable that I will consider people who have called me mafia.

I was thinking about this too, how I'm pretty sure I am THE only person in this game defending you and everyone else thinks you're scum or has thought it. I can buy one teammate bussing you. But all of your teammates? That is for sure less likely.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I think if Oats is town then atleast one of Dann/Luca is scum

Both outcomes here, where Oats is town and one of Dann / Luca is scum, are really unlikely. Oats has just been antagonizing people and playing defensively all game long, doing little if anything to help us converge our reads and lessen the chaos. I would say both Dann and Luca have done the exact opposite; they've put a lot of effort into solving things, showed flexibility, admitted to faults (this last one is a BIG one to me), and both seem to be working as a team with town as a whole (rather than just one or two people).

BTW my shower thought this morning, why's this game called Mafia? Are mafiosos known for being sneaky and deceptive? Pretty sure if they want someone gone, they just blow his kneecaps out and drop him into a river and be done with it.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Thinking Oats is mafia is a bit silly in this wagon formation unless he's exactly teamed with DP

Ergo Dannflor is mafia, cause he ignores that, votes Oats, but still should rather vote DP if he was town adhering to his stated beliefs.
The gob vote was a distancing attempt.

Or maybe Vivax is scum with oats.

None of the above analysis makes sense to me, especially the last part when Dann clearly expressed his suspicion of oats prior to this.

You can't be town and in good faith argue that two mafias didn't at least attempt to hammer the townie one of DP and gob.

Maybe I should just stick with DP/Grack/Luca after all.

Which townie are you referring to here? Roden? Dann and I were the two who had intent to hammer Dunnstral.

[SuperfluousNinja]

i do pay attention to the game much more when i am scum
as town i tend to be lax

Do you understand why lax play is interpreted as scummy?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I see you writing a lot but not much substance behind it when you could just look at the wagons and draw conclusions in a more rational way.

Why are you suddenly saying this? I do this massive amount of work to describe the full history of votes on Dunnstral, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you said nothing about it, at all. (I remember because it seemed like nobody gave a shit about that analysis, and that made me sad, because I really did put a lot of work into that, even marking page numbers and such) But now suddenly you're arguing that this is important? At the very least, since my analysis was ignored by everyone, this opinion that looking at wagons matters so much is seemingly not shared by anyone. To me this feels like you're only arguing that it matters when it is convenient for you to make a case on someone.

Instead you're back to claims like Oats pocketing TL buddies and all that jazz which is a cheap way of sowing distrust. Most of your arguments are based on something not making sense to you and there's massive amounts of purely aesthetic floof.

No, no, no. I can't tell you how much I disagree with, like, every sentence here. For one, there's a difference between simply saying he is pocketing TL buddies, which is confined to scummy play by Oats alone, vs. saying that the whole of TL players are some big massive conspiracy of distrust, which WOULD be discord but is not at all what he said.

And his posts aren't aesthetic fluff. You can't argue that if he's citing evidence frequently, which he is. If it were all OPINION, it would be fluff, but it isn't.

I've now come around to thinking Vivax / Oats / Gob are the scum team.

[SuperfluousNinja]

@Ninja, do you understand Vivax's point regarding the wagons, and do you think he makes a valid point?

No, and hell no. See previous post.

[SuperfluousNinja]

VOTE: gob
i actually wish to head this way
anybody up for this

I can +1 the vote but as a guess it‘s contraintuitive for me

VOTE: gob

I don‘t see how gob is mafia trying to win the game over being fuck all not trying to solve it at all.

On the other hand I could see Oats being in charge of keeping the heat off DP while he‘s mia.

It‘s a bit unlikely for Grack to have this drastic turnaround on him if he‘s partnered with him ?

Maybe this could ease lots of doubts on Lucas, Ninjas and Dannflors side especially:

VOTE: DarthPunk

Seriously you guys, Vivax is scum.

Look how reluctant he was to vote for scummate Gob. Then his brain screams at him, no dude, don't start a wagon on your buddy, get off him! So the very next post he swaps his vote. Food for thought

[SuperfluousNinja]

For real though, I really want to focus on why you ignored my vote wagon analysis, Vivax. I was just poking through your ISO to confirm that you did indeed ignore it, and you did (I found that interesting voting pattern on the way).

I posted my analysis in post 2802. You were just now arguing that you think Luca is scummy for not putting more effort into looking at wagons and making conclusions from those. Well Vivax, I gave you about as full and comprehensive of a history on the Dunnstral voting wagon as a person could possibly give it, and you said two things about it: 1) Jack 2) Shit. So explain to me why you'd do that, why you would

completely ignore it

, if you legitimately believe it is important to talk about that stuff? Convince me that you did not just now make something up about what you think is important to give you an excuse to vote for Luca.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Post 2802, for reference.

[SuperfluousNinja]

i do pay attention to the game much more when i am scum
as town i tend to be lax

Do you understand why lax play is interpreted as scummy?

I dont care.

See, I was hoping you would say "yes, I do, but this is just how I play", as that would have given me reason to townread you. If you can admit to a fault but still explain how it fits your playstyle, that would make me feel better.

You are making it hard to townread you.

[SuperfluousNinja]

You can construct a lot as WIFOM but good luck saying that I deliberately choose a harder path for myself if I'm mafia.
We had gob at -1 with Hu Tao and thread support, you might as well claim scum if you think I am.

I don't think it's a good argument that you are "making things harder for yourself" by backing off of a wagon on your teammate. Are things not easier for you if your teammate is alive?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I think if Oats is town then atleast one of Dann/Luca is scum

Both outcomes here, where Oats is town and one of Dann / Luca is scum, are really unlikely. Oats has just been antagonizing people and playing defensively all game long, doing little if anything to help us converge our reads and lessen the chaos. I would say both Dann and Luca have done the exact opposite; they've put a lot of effort into solving things, showed flexibility, admitted to faults (this last one is a BIG one to me), and both seem to be working as a team with town as a whole (rather than just one or two people).

BTW my shower thought this morning, why's this game called Mafia? Are mafiosos known for being sneaky and deceptive? Pretty sure if they want someone gone, they just blow his kneecaps out and drop him into a river and be done with it.

This is super duper icky post, once again.... Idk if to just yeet that.

Why would you say this is "super duper icky"?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Luca has definitely not admitted to any faults--

That isn't true. Two recent instances of him admitting to faults:

Mildly confused why dann didn’t seem to react to my response to his “case”

i do not think it productive

Correct, I've learnt that the hard way.

This is Luca admitting that his back and forth with Oats was not productive.

Who called you mafia for that?

An why would you want to give me space when you heavily scumread me?

Because people asked me to after our first go around. And it’s just nicer for me you and everyone if we shit up the thread less.

I still want to lim you. I still think you are mafia but us just arguing is hardly a pro town endeavour.

Also I think you are mafia so I don’t think there is any point in arguing or discussing with you why you are mafia.

Ok, I can agree to not shitting up the thread, at least.

This is him admitting that his back-and-forth with Darth could be classified as "shitting up the thread". That's also an acknowledgement of a mistake.

The second half of what you said:

--and Dann has done absolutely nothing today.

Why is this only about "today"? He's done quite a bit apart from today that makes me townread him. I know you are suspicious about the fact that he is pulling back right now, but he did explain exactly why he is doing so, proactively, before anyone started pushing him on it. Given everything else he's contributed and the efforts he has made, I don't really see much reason to think that's indicative of alignment.

But either way, I know you are focused on today, but that doesn't need to mean that I am, also.

[SuperfluousNinja]

You guys I'm almost at 1000 posts!

[SuperfluousNinja]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNQDCcqQu2Q

[SuperfluousNinja]

Regarding Naerys, honestly she is so inactive in this game that I don't much care about any analysis in regards to her. My scum read on her was largely based on process of elimination, not because she did anything particularly scummy. I don't think she's interesting to analyze at all, really, and whatever I work out with her is going to have to be a consequence of how I read everyone else.

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

And as for activity levels, I guess I just can't win, because I took everyone's advice to heart and decided it was a bad strategy to use to try and find scum. Every person who had something to say to me about it said, yo, don't do it. And that includes Dunnstral, a confirmed town. So if I actually listen but now get scum read because I flip flopped or whatever, then just lol, can't please everyone I guess.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

[SuperfluousNinja]

As for my view change on Oats, my read progression there is very, very well documented. I pressed him on a valid point and he just blew me off. It's not crazy for me to jump over to the scum side of the fence in response to that.

I answered you like 10 times about it

Oh you SAID that DP was frustrated with Luca over a "non-game-related" thing, but you never actually showed me what that was, never showed any evidence in regards to it. Saying it happened is meaningless if you can't provide any evidence of it. Everything everyone has said in this game is right there for you to quote and reference, so you have no excuse for not providing the evidence.

You want to say something and not back it up with evidence, then I throw it in the circular file. That's how it works.

[SuperfluousNinja]

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

The fact he gets so toxic is just another benefit of voting him out - we won't have to deal with that anymore and game instantly becomes more enjoyable.

This is super manipulative based on ninjas proclivities towards behaviour standards.

I don’t Think I have been toxic at all. Can you point out how this has been the case.

Because that is a serious thing to say to someone that is not about their alignment.

I will say that for me the game has become unenjoyable (although I feel better now I've accepted my inevitable lim) due to the atmosphere created in the thread from players such as you and Oats. I realise now it's probably part of your plan as scum to create such an environment, where people are afraid to even vote you for what your reaction might be. The fact you gang up as well, it's pretty shitty to play against.

I wouldn't say that anything you've particularly said has crossed the line, so I will take back my 'toxic' comment, as maybe that was a bit harsh.

You are giving as good as you are getting tbh.

I found that comment to not only be off the mark but also highly manipulative in the way it was used with ninja, enticing her to vote your way based on a narrative of toxicity where there is none. Not based on alignment. But for personal reasons.

Really distasteful overall regardless of your alignment.

You and Oats have shouted me down for most of the game, including at times when I wasn't even talking to you (like when I was Iso'ing people). I think I'm entitled to bite back a little.

Absolutely you are, that is the game. But I have outlined where you crossed the line with that toxic comment and I think you agree.

I wish you hadn’t set ninja off but I think you did it on purpose so I will blame that on you

The other stuff is part of the game and having strong players with opposed views will always result in tension I don’t have harsh feelings towards you for also making the game suck for me. As long as we both acknowledged we are active participants (I even tried to disengage several times to give you space and get called mafia for it )

You said Luca is frustrated with Luca over "non-game related" stuff.

The first is frustration regarding influencing how I am voting in the game. Thus it is game-related.

The second is, once again, frustration about the fact that my game vote has been manipulated. That's game-related.

The third, same thing.

You can't argue that Darth's frustration is entirely over the fact that Luca appealed to my sensibilities, that Darth would have been equally as frustrated about it if we weren't all playing a game and he didn't have anything to lose in this game.

More importantly, you have this really, really avoidant way of talking about the issue. You treat facts and evidence like they are hot potatoes, like you can't wait to get them off your hands and not have to deal with them anymore. I'm not afraid at all to dive deep into the weeds and discuss stuff like this, but you get so incredibly impatient and defensive when I try to dig into stuff like this. You want to shut down conversations rather than seeing them through to completion. And that's very scummy in my book.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Bit much from someone who doesn’t even iso their own scum reads

And look at how fucking disingenuous this is. I specifically cited Naerys and explained you why I don't think it is worth diving into Naerys in particular. And you use this language suggesting that I don't iso ANY of my scum reads, ever, at all. Do you not see how manipulative, unfair, bad-faith that is?

[SuperfluousNinja]

You know what, you're trying to trap me. I shouldn't fall into this.

To explain to the peanut gallery what this is about, Oats originally said he's going to scum read Luca because he can't understand why a player would get frustrated with another player for suspecting him of guilt unless he was indeed guilty. I pointed out that Darth seems to have done that back to Luca, and they probably aren't both guilty. Frankly I'm positive I could find all sorts of examples all over this website of people being suspected of guilt and getting frustrated for it,

even though they weren't guilty.

But Oats just will not let this angle go. He just....will....NOT....let it go. He is so adamant about defending this particular angle to scumread someone that he has debated about it for pages and pages.

Because the kicker is, Luca and Darth went back and forth for, like, a REEEEALLLY long time. And you can find all sorts of frustration from both of them, all over the fucking place. It's just that oats cherry picked this one particular part of the conversation and is trying to insist that this is the source of Luca's frustration, of all of it. It happened much later in the conversation, and there was plenty of frustration happening prior to that, but Oats is cherry picking this one thing and insisting that all of Luca's frustration stems from that one thing alone.

He is cherry-picking and discussing in bad faith. I don't plan on responding to anything else he says in this game, honestly. All yall are free to ask me what you want, but I am done engaging in these manipulative conversations with oats.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Thats a cool job. have you written any papers?

Mafia is not that though, we need to be able to infer probable truths from small pieces of information.

I do know her iso is really small, that is why it bothers me that you didn't

1.) read it when she was in your POE
and
2.) Notice what I did and rule her out from being mafia at least from the time being, or at least consider and dismiss it as being non-indicative of alignment.

Well, you're just going to have to be bothered, then. You don't think small sample size conclusions apply to games like these. I do.

And arguing that there isn't enough data in this game? Please! There's TOO MUCH data in this game, ESPECIALLY on this site when we can talk for days and days and days. The challenge in this game is to make sense of the excess of data, for heaven's sake.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Does it bother you that I specifically did not read it after I put her in my scum pool last night? Because I have read it before. I have read it a couple times, and I remember thinking "lol what a waste of time" when I did it, so no, I didn't bother reading it again last night after she entered my pool by default.

Not to mention, I went to the gym after work, I came home, I was fucking exhausted, and I am already REALLY pushing it with my involvement in this game during the day when I'm at work, so this angle you have that you think it's suspicious that I didn't read her iso last night, it's kinda just a straight-up bad angle.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself

, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Can you explain this a bit more please?

I want to know what Naerys is, whether she's scum or town. I just don't think a read of her iso is going to help me figure that out, because she just hasn't said or done enough for me to ascertain that. I need to do it by process of elimination with the others.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself

, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Can you explain this a bit more please?

I want to know what Naerys is, whether she's scum or town. I just don't think a read of her iso is going to help me figure that out, because she just hasn't said or done enough for me to ascertain that. I need to do it by process of elimination with the others.

But she literally -did- do something that will help you ascertain her alignment, that you could find if you read her ISO.

Some

thing

. Not some

things

. Right? That's the problem, Darth. I assume you're referring to the slip-up with not knowing about Roden, and I don't see that as an alignment-indicative thing, to be honest. It could just as easily be scum playing dumb.

When drug A beats drug B once, you don't know if that was just a coincidence. When drug A beats drug B 99 times out of 100, then you're a lot more certain.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I mean frankly Darth, if you think you can ascertain Naerys' alignment just based on what's in the iso, I would strongly caution you against that. If you REALLY feel like you've got a case or some strong feeling about Naerys, I would really question whatever that read is, scum or town. I don't see how you, or anyone else, can feel confident about a read on Naerys at all, to be honest.

For sure I am kicking the can down the road on that one. For one, even if she is scum, there's at least 2 other scum we can find. And for another, even at a really low rate of contributing to the game, over the next couple of weeks, she is bound to start contributing enough overall that we can finally sort things out better there. But right now? I really don't think so.

[SuperfluousNinja]

See, this is intending to make Darth doubt his read without presenting an alternative.

Have I not been clear about my current scum pool of you / Oats / Gob?

[SuperfluousNinja]

At any rate, this is fascinating to watch. Darth puts some heat on a townie, and immediately you see a ramp up of pressure from Vivax and Oats. Really makes you think.

[SuperfluousNinja]

She's busy invalidating reads...

Why was approximately the entire game even townreading Ninja? I forgot.

Pot, meet kettle.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm very sorry but I have a strict "do not engage with my scumreads" policy, effective immediately.

You want to push for a misyeet on me, you go right ahead and try lol. I trust I can talk sense into the people who actually are trying to engage in good faith in this town, not to mention my towniness is actually pretty easy to see when you approach this game from the clueless town perspective. That's maybe why you think you could actually make this work on me, because you aren't seeing that from your informed perspective.

[SuperfluousNinja]

1.) Didn't you agree it was less likely to come from mafia before?

Yep. Just like how Drug A can absolutely be better than Drug B in that one instance.

2.) we don't get to wait for those kind of sample sizes, otherwise you can never read low post count players.

Yeah we do. I mean tell me this, Darth: how many minutes do you think it would take you to read through Naerys's iso and see every argument she made and really try to wrap your brain around it? I bet it would take, like, 5 minutes, 10 minutes max.

Do you know how long it would take to do that with everyone other than Gob here? It would take you FUCKING HOURS. I really don't know how or why you're making this argument that we don't have much to work with here. Did you not see the complaints from Naerys, Hu Tao, and Gob about how long some of my individual posts are? And that was just for one post, whereas this thread has OVER THREE THOUSAND OF THEM at this point.

We have tons and tons of stuff to look at here, and yet I insist that you could read through Naerys's iso in 5 minutes and fully understand every contribution she has made to this game. That should tell you something about how disproportionate things are for her.

If you want to talk about Gob, he has been comparatively more active than Naerys, comparatively less active than the rest of us. It's more notable that he is choosing a strategy of active non-participation, and the puzzle with him is more about "would a town just actively not participate in this game, unapologetically". I personally don't think so.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I am not even putting heat or calling you mafia or whatever Ninja, i'm just trying to figure out your thought processes and test to see if they make sense under some scrutiny.

Do you find it interesting that Vivax and Oats want to push me on stuff at the same time you're asking these questions? They aren't pushing the same angle you are; they're just pushing their own stuff. Do you find that interesting at all?

[SuperfluousNinja]

So are you drawing a conclusion from it or not, it seems like you are just backtracking your previous statements.

Yes. I'm telling you it's a data point that makes her lean town. But it's still just one data point.

If I can just say something and then I later can say, yes but anything can be true 1 time out of 100 thenI literally aren't saying anything and don't have to be accountable for anything.

you can see the problem approaching the game like this right?

You're talking about the probability of a single event. You're worried about being able to brush off an event as a coincidence, right? Well I'm talking about the occurrence of multiple events. If you have 50 events that lean town and only 5 that lean scum, I'm going to feel pretty good deciding that person is town. You can brush off 1 or 2 events as coincidences, but when it seems to keep happening one way over and over, you are a lot less able to call it a coincidence.

[SuperfluousNinja]

And can you please not mock me for my profession Vivax, thanks.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm explaining the statistics mentality to Darth. It is not purely about numbers.

BTW nobody would ever use both a relative risk and an odds ratio, that's like saying you're going to paint the wall with red and blue paint.

[SuperfluousNinja]

If she manages to pull up a four field matrix that solves the game using relative risk and odds ratios I'll be impressed.
Otherwise it's just floof

Like think of it this way. Imagine a violin player told you that they apply things they've learned while playing the violin to other things in their life, in unexpected ways. A violin player could say that their playing has taught them how to interact with people, how to view the world around them, how to handle their stress. And then imagine some guy comes in with "lol what, so they just bust out Vivaldi's Concerto No. 2 every time they meet someone?" People find ways to implement their profession into the way they see the world and they integrate with one another a lot more often than you might think. It's not crazy.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Darth, you ever think maybe there's some other reason why I didn't read an iso?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I guess I just took issue with the way you said it. The whole "I bet she comes in with this overly complex thing to solve a basic problem" suggests that I have no idea how to approach simple problems, that I just overcomplicate everything.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Like yes, I read the tone behind "I bet she uses [whatever the fuck] matrices and odds ratios and relative risks to solve the problem" can very easily be interpreted as making a mockery of those sorts of things.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I don't understand what you're saying, sorry.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I think you might have mis-englished that one lol

[SuperfluousNinja]

I am off to choir practice shortly, and then I am NOT coming here tomorrow. Tomorrow is a day for being surrounded by love and I don't trust any of you to provide that, sorry lol. Believe me you wouldn't want to deal with me tomorrow anyway.

I think I've explained my viewpoint to Darth as thoroughly as I can. I try to look at as many interesting tidbits and nuggets of whatever as I can and I add those up as things that look towny, things that look scummy, and however the chips fall after adding it all up, that's how I tend to feel about the person ultimately. The bit about sample size, I just don't know how else I can get the point across that we do have an abundance of data on pretty much everyone here, while we have a staggering dearth of it with Naerys. It's not just about the post count; it's about what's in the posts. I insist that you can read through and understand everything she's done in this game in 5 minutes. That's just not enough of hardly anything for me to want to bother investing time into directly solving her alignment by studying her directly. I don't know how I can be any clearer on that point.

Vivax, frankly I'm just really unsatisfied with our conversation, I feel like you're misrepresenting how I am approaching this game rather than asking me directly how I do so. There's a stark contrast between how you talked to me, with a lot of presuppositions on how I think and how I approach things, vs. Darth, who seemed genuinely curious about it. My scum read on you stands.

See you on the 15th.

[SuperfluousNinja]

VOTE: SuperfluousNinja
Going 1v1 until one of us dies.
Most damning evidence in all game.

Oh no!

Anyway, I am back. Planning to catch up and then really drill down into the isos of my scum reads of oats / vivax / gob and see how I still feel about that team.

[SuperfluousNinja]

ninja what is your read on HT?

I read them as town. More than anything else, I don't really understand why Hu Tao would purposefully pull these gambits and draw attention to themselves if they were scum. This game is the opposite of how press works in real life: any press is BAD press. Apart from having a role where your win condition is to get yourself yeeted, I honestly don't know why any scum would want to do something like this.

I also feel like Hu Tao is engaging with a lot of people in this game, not really focusing on one specific person (though correct me if I'm wrong on that). They're being more of a team player from what I can tell.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I was just about to ask if Vivax had given up on pursuing me. It occurred to me the day before yesterday how my scum team of Oats / Vivax / Gob would make little sense if both Oats AND Vivax really wanted to flip me. They'd be pretty dumb to both tunnel on the one person calling them scum since that would put them both in serious trouble. So if they were both still focused on me, I'd doubt my read. But now that I see the switch to Gob, that still aligns pretty well with my theory (I feel like Gob is signaling pretty hard to his scummates here to just yeet him and reap the benefits of having participated in killing scum, because I think Gob just doesn't care to play at all).

[SuperfluousNinja]

And she constantly repeats how it only takes 5 minutes to read through naerys' iso but somehow she didnt do it because its not large enough? Thats not good logic to me or anyone imo. She couldve easily admitted that her method was faulty but she doubles down on the exact same type of thing that shes calling me mafia for.

People really need to stop claiming that I did not read Naerys' iso or suggest that I didn't.

Darth asked me if I specifically read Naerys' iso during the 12 - 18 hour period after I left her in my scum pool, and during that time, no, I did not. You can go back and review the question Darth asked and see why that question is understood to be exactly that. He specifically asked me,

after you put Naerys in your scum pool AT THAT POINT IN TIME

, did you 1) read her iso 2) pay attention to my take on Naerys, and as I said, my answer is no.

But that does not mean I have NEVER read Naerys' iso. The reason I am currently not bothering with any analysis of Naerys is because I HAVE read her iso, multiple times, and it was such a waste of time that I no longer bother. If she has since come back here and said interesting things, I'll give that some thought, but at that time, no, I did not read it,

because I had already read it and I found it to be a pointless exercise

.

[SuperfluousNinja]

@darth punk

Luca and Ninja scum together seems impossible to me. They work together too obviously when it comes to derailing the thread.

Look I promise I am done doing what I was doing against Oats. The fact that it was WITH Luca is not the important part here. I needed to know what Oats' deal was, why he was being stubborn on what seems like a lot of really low-stakes stuff, trying to see if we could just talk through a read, be logical about it, come to an understanding. And to make an admittedly enormous story short, he won't, so I'm content to just scum read him and leave it at that. He had his chance to admit that his logic didn't add up and that his read strategy is faulty, and he did everything in his power to avoid having to admit it. So he's just scum in my book.

But for real, you won't see that from me again. I got the answer I needed.

Okay so you see here, shes fine saying that my logic didnt add up by her standards and because I didnt bend to her will and admit it, im mafia.

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

My real life job is biostatistician, and in my profession, we often caution against even conducting a statistical test on anything with too little data. A conclusion based on small sample size is quite dangerous.

Thats a cool job. have you written any papers?

Mafia is not that though, we need to be able to infer probable truths from small pieces of information.

I do know her iso is really small, that is why it bothers me that you didn't

1.) read it when she was in your POE
and
2.) Notice what I did and rule her out from being mafia at least from the time being, or at least consider and dismiss it as being non-indicative of alignment.

Well, you're just going to have to be bothered, then. You don't think small sample size conclusions apply to games like these. I do.

So here, obviously her logic doesnt add up for DP, so she just says, well deal with it. And obviously thats not a problem for her.

Oh I am interested in the alignment; I'm just not interested in analysis of Naerys herself, because there's just not enough to chew on. Whatever tools I want to use to sort someone out, I can't really use those at all on Naerys. You realize it takes like 5 minutes to read through her ISO?

I think I've explained my viewpoint to Darth as thoroughly as I can. I try to look at as many interesting tidbits and nuggets of whatever as I can and I add those up as things that look towny, things that look scummy, and however the chips fall after adding it all up, that's how I tend to feel about the person ultimately. The bit about sample size, I just don't know how else I can get the point across that we do have an abundance of data on pretty much everyone here, while we have a staggering dearth of it with Naerys. It's not just about the post count; it's about what's in the posts. I insist that you can read through and understand everything she's done in this game in 5 minutes. That's just not enough of hardly anything for me to want to bother investing time into directly solving her alignment by studying her directly. I don't know how I can be any clearer on that point.

And she constantly repeats how it only takes 5 minutes to read through naerys' iso but somehow she didnt do it because its not large enough? Thats not good logic to me or anyone imo. She couldve easily admitted that her method was faulty but she doubles down on the exact same type of thing that shes calling me mafia for.

Yeah ok I see what you are saying, but do you think that makes her mafia.

Cause ATM I am not sure if this is just how she is as town and that makes me suspect her or if there is a mafia motivation behind it.

There is a much weirder post from her to be honest.

its this one:

If you all want me to sheep on a Luca vote, I probably will at this point. It seems like the most informative flip we could be making right now.

Even Luca thought it was weird

If you all want me to sheep on a Luca vote, I probably will at this point. It seems like the most informative flip we could be making right now.

Btw, what sparked this comment anyway?

Wouldn't Darth be as informative a flip as my own, if not more so? I would definitely say more so, given his connections to other tl members, especially the likes of Oats who has been backing him up every step of the way.

I also got the impression that you townread me more than Darth, so I'm just a little puzzled by this.

Ninja was kind of also pushing you and me as lims next after Luca

If you all want me to sheep on a Luca vote, I probably will at this point. It seems like the most informative flip we could be making right now.

What will your view of the game be after I flip town?

I would be extremely suspicious of Darth and Oats if you flipped town.

I don't think it would change my mind on OOO since he seems to at least have good reasoning for everything, whereas it seems like Darth's case on you is built largely on emotion and overplaying his read on things, and Oats is just trying to frustrate you and everyone else to make you look worse.

big assumption, but if we assume luca, yourself and me was TvTvT, that is kind of setting the stage for a Mafia!Ninja to line up a few mislims in a row.

I realize that this is a move on my part I'm going to struggle to explain. I really don't think Luca is scum and I still don't, but I thought at this point of the game, I was pretty much the only one that felt that way.

I'm also reacting to Luca having said that he "accepts that he will be flipped" today and that he said a few things suggesting his will to play this game and keep up with it all has diminished greatly. So in my mind this was a move along the lines of putting down a sick dog.

More than anything, I just worry about how much time gets wasted heaping suspicion on Luca, ESPECIALLY by you, Darth, because I town read you pretty strongly and you are one of the most engaged players in this game, if not THE most engaged, but you are spending such a significant portion of your time and effort on someone I think is also town. This whole thing between you and Luca just reeks of TvT to me and I just want this energy redirected to the right place here. If this is still going on Day 3, that's a problem. That's how I saw it.

Maybe your attitudes towards each other have shifted at this point, but at that point in time, they definitely had not. When I said that, that was on the back end of another like 5 pages that were just you two going at each other, and I was so goddamn sick of that at that point lol.

And a final thought on all this, I do try to be a team player, and that involves admitting I could be totally wrong on a player. Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I think everyone was either null on Luca or considered him scum. 8 town, 3 scum in the game right now. What are the chances that all 6 townies are null / scum on Luca, and I'm the only one out of the 7 townies not including Luca that thinks he's scum? I'm waving the white flag and admitting that even though my own thought processes and my own way of approaching this game have told me otherwise, a lot of people have independently come up with a different conclusion than I have, and that just makes me wonder if I've gotten it wrong.

I mean look at how much heat I am getting just for playing quite differently from you all, and also look at how little experience I have in this game. The vast majority of my mafia experience is actually in the Starcraft 2 version of it, where days last for about 2-3 minutes and the emphasis is largely on night actions and such. Very little of my mafia time has been spent on forum mafia. I played a couple games on personalitycafe.com many years ago where days only lasted 48 hours, and I've only played I think maybe 2 games here, one of which I abandoned because I had such drastic personal conflicts with people in that game that I couldn't overcome (maybe you're not surprised to hear that lol). My experience with long-form forum mafia like this, where days last a super long time, is very minimal. I am seeing a whole lot of "why would Ninja do this" and the answer in probably almost every case is that I am either taking a different approach or I just don't have the experience in this game to understand why that's such a problem. But I am confident I can explain my rationale behind everything I did here, so please do ask if you are confused about something.

[SuperfluousNinja]

Meh. the yeet is just gob.

I think I agree with this. I think. It would be awfully nice to see if we could yeet one of the manipulative players out of this town and focus our energy more for day 3, but it's also good to take the win. I think Gob is one of the highest probability scum flips.

My main question is, what do we learn from it? Does anyone have a good feel on who might have defended Gob in strange ways? Like is there anyone we become suspicious of as a result of this flip? I guess my concern here is that, with the way he's been playing, we really don't learn anything about anyone, because he's basically game-throwing, and both town and scum can 100% justify yeeting a person who does that. His MO is to willfully not participate. Who wouldn't be able to successfully defend themselves yeeting a person who plays like that?

[SuperfluousNinja]

I don't even care honestly.

I'm feeling pretty confident I've largely solved the game with Gob/Oats after my last post. I've had success yeeting scum like this in the past.

This is where I am too, honestly. I feel pretty locked-in with Gob / Oats / Vivax as the scum team, but I am continually worried about having been played, so it makes me feel better to see someone else say this.

Who do you think is the third scum? Apologies if you said this a page later, which is currently about 20 pages ago lol.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I got up early and spent my hour before work trying to catch up, and I've only made it to page 149 lol. God I am fucked.

I do need to be playing this game less during the workday but I'll try to answer any burning questions you have in the meantime. Gonna be a process for me to catch up on everything.

[SuperfluousNinja]

BTW, one closing thought before I go, I'm actually confused by why OOO has framed his intent to go after me as a "1v1". I read him as town and I still do. Isn't a 1v1 used in a situation where both players think the other is scum, where they both want each other dead? Like isn't that how duels work? The entire planet has fallen in love with Hamilton so I refuse to believe there's a soul on this planet who doesn't understand how a duel works lol. It's not a 1v1 if I don't want the other person dead and don't have any beef with them.

I worry that he is framing it in this way, as a 1v1, to put lipstick on the pig, whereas the more apt / fitting description of what he is doing is that he's just tunneling me. Is he afraid to word it this way, that he is tunneling me? I don't follow why he wants to call it a 1v1 when it clearly isn't.

Anyone have any ideas on that?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Do you see my point ? If me and Oats are the reason that mafia gob lim is being delayed, they are going to assume we‘d look bad if gob flips red so they already positioned their reads for after that event due to tmi.

The only way we can disprove it is if me and Oats hammer him together and he actually flips red.

Ir gob is mafia here, his mates could as well make this Luca vs him at 4 votes.

We had Gob + Dp and now Gob + Oats.

Coincidentially, Ninja and Luca began suggesting me and Oats being partnered afterwards. And both aren‘t voting gob.

Both his mates are already voting me.

Then why aren't you voting gob?

Or why did we, his mates, not go for DP when we had the chance?

To answer the final question, it's because you know it's inevitable.

And if you want to work the angle of "but why wouldn't we shut down the conversation", I think scum, much like Darth and myself, have figured out that super long days are actually kinda bad for town, because we are entering analysis paralysis and giving ourselves too much time to second-guess ourselves.

The fact that you are trying to argue that you and oats hammering Gob makes you innocent is a real head scratcher for me. Why should that make you innocent?

[SuperfluousNinja]

Vivax really scummed it up around the p139/p140 mark. He made a load of stuff up that made no sense about the wagons, and when he realised no-one was buying it just said me and Darth are scum and slunk off, ignoring the points I made, as well as Ninja's relevant question as to why he completed ignored her Dunn wagon analysis if he's such a proponent of wagon analysis.

That doesn‘t make me mafia, but describing it like that just makes you more like Holyflare.

It‘s like you can only lazer one at a time and when you do, you always find something scummy to bring up. Guess what??? Town doesn‘t always make sense either or we could aswell just bin every single player.

It isn‘t even about inconsistencies it‘s about reading the intentions behind posts.

In case you missed it, Vivax STILL didn't explain why he completely ignored my Dunn analysis if he thinks vote wagons are important.

[SuperfluousNinja]

And I found Ninjas intention to

keep DP from being sure about his reads

which is why I went after her when she was trying to make him doubt his Naerys read.

This is so dishonest. I did not try to keep DP from being confident about his readS, with an S at the end. I questioned his read on just one person in particular. You are playing this up as me trying to undermine everything DP is doing, and I'm not. The fact that you're being so lazy with the truth and stretching things like this is a HUGE problem for me.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I don't think it's crazy to think that the final vote on Dunnstral includes at least one scum, if not two, if not all three...

Last people to vote for Dunnstrall MUST absolutely have mafia in them

Bro, why are YOU doing it now too? Please look at what I said, compared to how you framed it just now.

What I hate about this is that I townread you, but I scumread Vivax, and yet you both did the same thing, embellishing what I said in dishonest ways, which I believe to be a scum tactic. So how do I parse out who is actually evil here and who is just naturally prone to embellishment?

Whichever of you is town, as the real Gob Bluth would say...COME ON!

[SuperfluousNinja]

So now it's your turn to explain how oats can get away with suddenly voting Darth when he's been unequivocally on his side the entire game?

I'm sure he could have made something up if he's teamed with gob like you say.

Wow, this has got to be the single most unsatisfying response to a question I have seen in this game.

[SuperfluousNinja]

I'm good with a hammer at any point. Nothing else I want to talk about today.

There is simply no way someone says this and after the flip says "all the people who voted for Dunn late have a high chance of being mafia".

My wording was "I don't think it's crazy to think..." It was not that anyone has "a high chance of being mafia" on that wagon. The former, what I said, is pretty noncommittal, by design. "It's not crazy to think" is not a forceful statement, not in the least, whereas "high chance" IS a forceful statement.

You are somehow blowing things out of proportion with me and I would really like to know why.

I mean, you are actually USING quotation marks but not actually quoting me. At the very least, can you not do that? If you're going to quote me, then actually QUOTE me.

(It's still not a 1v1 though. To be clear. )

[SuperfluousNinja]

But it is not gonna be for today. Today i am going to use all my time to explain why Ninja is mafia.
Haters gonna hate and most of the people wont buy it i guess, but i am still gonna do it.

Holy shit, then do I ever feel good about my decision to avoid this game yesterday.

[SuperfluousNinja]

i don't think ninja's wagon analysis is good

Are you talking about the post where I described what happened? Or the post where I gave my interpretation of what happened?

Because the post simply describing what happened is just a recounting of facts. This person voted here, this person said that, it happened on page X, etc

[SuperfluousNinja]

Oats is

E-1

Time to claim

Fuck, I need to read faster lol.

Luckily there was a massive amount of snow last night and my bus commute is giving me extra time today.