Newbie 762 - OhGodMyVillage - Game Over

[Mastin]

I'll just throw a in random vote to show everyone my good intentions:

Why? Why do you need to show everyone your good intentions? If you're town, shouldn't you already know that you have good intentions? Explain...

[Scien]

You went hard on him, if I recall, mainly due to how he dodged the questions.

Perhaps. But the main thing I am trying to say here, trying to avoid saying too much about the past, is that due to my views I am obligated to at least apply some pressure to figure out why someone would use the random roll as a tactic. I did it then, and things progressed after I got initial answers, just as we are getting initial answers here.

One thing an IC of another game taught me is that generating discussion is always a good thing [...] it actually generates rather the healthy amount of discussion [...]

I don't really see a roll serving any purpose besides two possibilities. A) A scum using it to stay behind the scenes. B) A townie trying to lay low, and not draw attention to themselves. [...] From past experience, you seem to be a player that would not fall into B. So what are your motives behind the die roll?

From past experience, you can also conclude that I do not fall into A. I know what these things can produce, and it has the opposite outcome of what you describe, in my experience.

First off in my rather limited experence I have not seen you as scum so I don't know if you could fit into the A category, that is what I am trying to decide.

Secondly, I take it you are arguing that the third choice is C) A player can use the roll as a tool to make himself look initially scummy, in order to increase participation in the game? Hmm maybe. But this has some drawbacks that I would like to ask you about if this is your claim.

First, would you consider it a risk that someone would start analyzing your play before you could get reads from others, bringing the tactic into limelight, and allowing for scum to dodge around it? Would you say that I am harming your attempts at the moment? Or do you think you can maneuver around this and still get the reads you are after from scum?

Second if you are truly trying to examine others, why were you content on a roll landing on yourself. This still screams scum to me. If you wanted to examine others, you could be playing the random roll game you are playing with me now, but have placed a random vote elsewhere so you had a chance of getting a reaction you could read out of more than one player. Letting a random vote land on yourself, and then arguing it away as statistics (which you have just done in your last post by saying you needed to leave yourself in the vote list), just screams to me that you want to look fair and impartial. When in reality every single person in this game has some info about the roles, even if it is just their own.

Where I was going with that last bit? If you are townie, you know that you are townie. Why would you leave yourself as a possibility for your own random vote? Because you wanted the vote to land on yourself. You wanted to call attention to the fact that it was a "random" vote, so you could avoid suspicion. The only group of people that should want to avoid suspicion are scum. Is their another possibility of why you would let yourself be a candidate for random vote? Why did you need to accentuate the fact that the vote was random? It still goes back to A or B, (I don't think C applies to my current train of thought, I could be wrong).

Where do you think I am wrong. I want to continue this...

[Mastin]

I'll just throw a in random vote to show everyone my good intentions:

Why? Why do you need to show everyone your good intentions? If you're town, shouldn't you already know that you have good intentions? Explain...

Ub, I still expect an answer from this...

Perhaps. But the main thing I am trying to say here, trying to avoid saying too much about the past, is that due to my views I am obligated to at least apply some pressure to figure out why someone would use the random roll as a tactic. I did it then, and things progressed after I got initial answers, just as we are getting initial answers here.

Precisely. Things will progress when people answer questions directed at them.

First off in my rather limited experence I have not seen you as scum so I don't know if you could fit into the A category, that is what I am trying to decide.

And, sadly, the only link I can give you where I have been scum is a game which I did not have my current playstyle in. I'd have to Dig to find that link, and I don't think it'd be worth the effort Of the time spent Coasting through pages.

Secondly, I take it you are arguing that the third choice is C) A player can use the roll as a tool to make himself look initially scummy, in order to increase participation in the game? Hmm maybe. But this has some drawbacks that I would like to ask you about if this is your claim.

I had no intention of it making me look scummy, but had intended for it to generate discussion (which it did). I was questioning if I should use it, knowing that drawbacks definitely existed.

First, would you consider it a risk that someone would start analyzing your play before you could get reads from others, bringing the tactic into limelight, and allowing for scum to dodge around it? Would you say that I am harming your attempts at the moment? Or do you think you can maneuver around this and still get the reads you are after from scum?

Every action has a risk involved and a consequence from that action. It is very easy for me to still get reads on the players this early in the game--particularly you, for example, who I'm already believing to be pro-town. Depending on where people's votes fall within a few real-life days, it will generate very large discussion. On that subject, it could also help other players get tells as well, hopefully leading us to the scum. 'Course, it could all just lead to nothing, but I doubt it.

Second if you are truly trying to examine others, why were you content on a roll landing on yourself.

The roll on myself is rather the blessing, as it is perhaps the one thing greater than the roll itself that will generate discussion and help me get a read. I am glad it landed on me, as we're already discussing.

This still screams scum to me.

As I have explained, sometimes, strange, practically unorthodox tactics/moves/luck can give more information than traditional methods, as it has done now.

If you wanted to examine others, you could be playing the random roll game you are playing with me now, but have placed a random vote elsewhere so you had a chance of getting a reaction you could read out of more than one player.

By the roll being on me, I believe it will actually get more than if I had gotten any other result--on another player, I get maybe one or two comments. On myself, the results could very well be different. I believe that this method will generate the greatest amount of reads possible.

Letting a random vote land on yourself, and then arguing it away as statistics (which you have just done in your last post by saying you needed to leave yourself in the vote list), just screams to me that you want to look fair and impartial.

I'd never leave myself out of a role. No matter what the role is used for, be it a board game or online mafia, I wouldn't do it. As I said, it landing on me might've been a great help to the town, or a hindrance, depending on how others react to it.

When in reality every single person in this game has some info about the roles, even if it is just their own.

This is true. I don't see what it has to do with your point, but it's true...

If you are townie, you know that you are townie. Why would you leave yourself as a possibility for your own random vote?

Why would I, if I had any other role, have any more motivation, for that matter? It's a personal belief of mine. In other words, I don't.

Because you wanted the vote to land on yourself.

I suppose I now know that it has thusfar at least appeared to be benefactory.

You wanted to call attention to the fact that it was a "random" vote, so you could avoid suspicion.

If you wish me to do so, I can go into further details as to why this is not true, but I would personally rather not say.

The only group of people that should want to avoid suspicion are scum.

Newbie scum, yes. But experienced scum, like doctors, cops, and townies, should all welcome the possibility of suspicion and explain why it is wrong/right. Those who avoid suspicion and aren't scum become targets of the scum, which is bad for docs/cops. Those who avoid suspicion and are scum...will either do a rather good job as scum, or won't stay under the radar for long.

Is their another possibility of why you would let yourself be a candidate for random vote?

As I explained, personal preference.

Why did you need to accentuate the fact that the vote was random?

I'm not sure I understand...

It still goes back to A or B, (I don't think C applies to my current train of thought, I could be wrong).

Where do you think I am wrong. I want to continue this...

For reasons above, I disagree. However, I do believe this is worthy of continuation.

[Ubaten]

Mastin: I'm pretty sure of my own good intentions, thank you very much. (Sorry!)

On to the explaining!

1. I wanted to show, by posting, that I haven't forgotten or quit the game, thus trying to be a likeable person.

2. From my very limited experience of mafia it seems that all votes - even random ones - lead to discussion and discussion helps scumhunting. Trying to be a helpful person.

3. An answer (of sorts) to Scien who associated random roll voting = minor scummyness. I tend to agree and voted accordingly.

All good intentions (i hope) but I will try to keep the fluff to a minimum from now on.

[sirdanilot]

Ha, ha, Hi, Scien.

Anyway, this is my first actual Day One, believe it or not, as every other time, I've replaced in after at least one page. That said, Scien, you probably wouldn't know that I like to start games off with random.org. ...The result was Mastin. :/

Mastin Votes: Mastin.

Oh, well. It's random, alright.

Two things wrong about this, that give me enough reason to

unvote ubaten vote Mastin

1. Random dice roll vote. Although it is called 'random voting stage' this does NOT mean you can just roll the dice and be done with it. The RVS (random voting stage) is there to give some information for the beginning of the game. It is not a great tool to give information, but it is one of the best things to get things going, since we have no other information. By simply rolling the dice, you are taking away the human aspect of choice from the RVS, and thereby taking away the microscopic amount of information that can be gained by it.

2 - Self voting in the RvS. Self voting is a BIG no-no. You are the only person you know is town, and voting yourself accomplishes absolutely nothing. It is very anti town to do this. I don't care wether you did this because your dice told you to, in fact that only makes it worse since you have even less reasons to vote yourself. Just don't self vote EVER again. It is only ever useful in very special settings in theme games with weird mechanics that won't ever occur in newbie games or even mini normal games (for example jesters, assassin in the palace) or maybe if you are mafia and don't want to give away any more information or something. Not something you should do as a vanilla townie in a newbie game.

I am not saying this is a huge scum tell, but it is better than the RVS information for now.

Also, as for the 'getting discussion going' part, yes, you indeed got discussion going, but does this make you more towny? No. You did something scummy, and you got discussion going, but you are still scummy. Otherwise, scum could get away with anything that is scummy and draws attention to it. It would reduce the game to WIFOM (click for explanation of this concept).

I didn't like Ubaten's 'to show my intentions' thing, but his explanation was reasonable enough I guess. Still something to keep an eye on, especially in these early stages of the game.

[sirdanilot]

And yes Barim I was in the dutch mafia but I had to replace out quite early on.

[Scien]

I had no intention of it making me look scummy, but had intended for it to generate discussion (which it did).

Eh? How would it generate discussion without some people viewing it as slightly scummy and strange for a townie to do?

Why would I, if I had any other role, have any more motivation, for that matter?

I believe a typical scum would have more motivation for a move like this for one, although there are more possibilities. I believe scum would have more motivation due to the fact that it keeps them participating while minimizing their attacks on others by A) the random roll itself and B) the fact that the vote landed on yourself. A newbie scum could fall behind this thinking it was a good idea. I know you can see this, you seem pretty analytical. A pro-town role using the roll in a 'strange, practically unorthodox' way needs to be examined carefully. There is a reason for the examination.

I don't know what else bugs me about this, but it still does. The tactic gets an all around meh in my book. But you are right, it does look like it got some people involved rather quickly. If that was truly your goal, then ok. But IGMEOY (I got my eye on you).

I'm pretty sure of my own good intentions

First us as townies don't know your intentions. We have to decide that on our own. Second, I don't think he was questioning that. I think he was questioning that you felt the need to both post and tell everyone that you have good intentions. Seems fishy, sorry.

I wanted to show, by posting, that I haven't forgotten or quit the game.

Okay, in that case could you go into more detail about what you think about aspects of the game so far? You say later that you think the random votes can provide discussion, but think that the actual method of die rolling used by Mastin was suspect. If that is the case what do you think of Mastin's defense so far? Unsatisfied on anything? I am but I think I hit a wall of what I want to ask.

All good intentions (i hope) but I will try to keep the fluff to a minimum from now on.

Eh, don't be afraid to post. Talking more helps more, trust me. But then again you admitting to constantly worrying about your image makes people go 'Huh?'.

By simply rolling the dice, you are taking away the human aspect of choice from the RVS

QFT (quoted for truth).

Also, as for the 'getting discussion going' part, yes, you indeed got discussion going, but does this make you more towny? No. You did something scummy, and you got discussion going, but you are still scummy. Otherwise, scum could get away with anything that is scummy and draws attention to it. [...]

Eh, I think there is a slight difference here, and you are kind of using a slippery slope argument. It is true that he got discussion going. If that was his goal he definitely succeeded. It not like he is hiding behind the 'generation of discussion' as a last ditch defense here. Yes it is still scummy, I agree. But his immediately jumping to that as a defense makes me tend to believe it. It just seems to me to be a weak defense, when so many others are possible. And as an aside, just because I might be willing to believe that this was his goal doesn't mean that I will then buy it from everyone trying to use the defense. Just because it seems valid in one situation doesn't mean that it will hold in all situations.

[Ubaten]

[quote=Scien]First us as townies don't know your intentions. We have to decide that on our own. Second, I don't think he was questioning that. I think he was questioning that you felt the need to both post and tell everyone that you have good intentions. Seems fishy, sorry.[/quote]

It was a joke, hence the (Sorry!), I guess I should have been more liberal with the ironic smileys. If you look at what Mastin wrote in post 25...

[quote=Mastin]If you're town, shouldn't you already know that you have good intentions?[/quote]

...you can see that he really asks me whether or not i know of my own good intentions. Me nitpicking, sorry, and I did understand the question which is why i went on to explain.

About my thoughts on the game and Mastins random roll act, here's my two cents:

[quote=scien]Eh? How would it generate discussion without some people viewing it as slightly scummy and strange for a townie to do?[/quote]

I have to agree here. Everyone agrees that discussion is always helpful for the town, but there must be degrees of helpfulness and i'd like to argue that the discussion you sparked is very low on that scale, reasons:

1. Ideally, discussion should come out of someone, hopefully scum, doing a slip-up, a logical fallacy or whatever. By making yourself the target for discussion you obscure any possible scum slip-ups (very improbable, I admit) from town.

2. The only people who has a need to look townie are non-townies. Townies, who are aware of their own innocence, shouldn't have to start by proving it, they should be out hunting scum. My thoughts at least, and by targetting yourself for discussion you are not hunting scum, you are trying to make us all believe you are innocent.

3. Your strategy is valid for a hypothetical one-man-game, since you know you are a townie. The problem is we don't now that, and instead of having us hunting scum you have us pointing fingers at you, who is (presumably) town. I don't see how that is helping (much).

I would like Mastin to answer the question as to why he chose to put his vote on himself and why he claimed it to be random. Maybe I'm stating the obvious here but I at least am doubting the randomness of it:

[quote=Mastin]By the roll being on me, I believe it will actually get more than if I had gotten any other result--on another player, I get maybe one or two comments. On myself, the results could very well be different. I believe that this method will generate the greatest amount of reads possible.[/quote]

Sorry for long rant, my question to Mastin: Why would anyone want to draw suspicion to themselves (as you have done)?

[Ubaten]

EBWOP: oh damn, could someone explain how to quote please, didn't really work out as I planned, my post should have looked much snazzier.

[Scien]

You need double quotes around the name... so [.quote="Scien"]Text[/quote] without the period in front of quote.

[Mastin]

Mastin Unvotes: Mastin

. Mission accomplished. Discussion started.
Another element which I failed to mention about it is that it could have been Fong's gambit (had not thought of it at the time, only thought about it later). If there were newbie scum around, they'd probably vote me in an attempted quick lynch. However, sirdan is the only one who has voted me since then, and I believe the vote has good reason and is not a move to be made by scum.
(Side-note: The game where I mentioned the role allowing me to nail scum? It also landed on me. The *only* people there who voted me were the scum. It worked beautifully there, and is why I did not abandon the roll, nor the possibility of self-rolling)

1. I wanted to show, by posting, that I haven't forgotten or quit the game, thus trying to be a likeable person.

Why the need to appear liked?

2. From my very limited experience of mafia it seems that all votes - even random ones - lead to discussion and discussion helps scumhunting. Trying to be a helpful person.

I agree--it does generate discussion.

3. An answer (of sorts) to Scien who associated random roll voting = minor scummyness. I tend to agree and voted accordingly.

Then why did you vote for Lleu? That had *nothing* to do with the random roll. My role was on myself, not on Lleu. And what about supposedly random voting? It's either random, or it's not.

All good intentions (i hope) but I will try to keep the fluff to a minimum from now on.

I find your answers, for the moment, unsatisfactory. Clarify 1+3, please.
In the mean time,

Mastin Votes: Ub

Although it is called 'random voting stage' this does NOT mean you can just roll the dice and be done with it.

Oh, far from it--I've been looking at the results rather carefully, and find people's reaction to them...interesting, to say the least.

It is not a great tool to give information, but it is one of the best things to get things going, since we have no other information.

I tend to disagree with this point--it gets things going by *giving* us information.

By simply rolling the dice, you are taking away the human aspect of choice from the RVS, and thereby taking away the microscopic amount of information that can be gained by it.

On the contrary, reactions I have gotten from this have produced more information than I believe could have ever been created from normal random voting. I'm still processing it, but for the most part, I believe that Ub's reaction to it has seemed rather scummy, Scien's reaction is pro-town, and your reaction...not sure. It seems too similar to Scien's for my comfort level.

Self voting is a BIG no-no.

During

any other stage of the game

, I would agree with you. During the random voting stage, I find it to be acceptable, as the discussion it generates will create more than enough information to find scum tells out of.

You are the only person you know is town, and voting yourself accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Again, under normal circumstances, I wholeheartedly agree. However, at this point in time, it has accomplished one thing: Getting reactions, and from those reactions, information, and from that information, suspects.

It is very anti town to do this.

Again, under normal circumstances, I would agree. Especially if they're already at L-1 and they lynch themselves *coughslastgame*, but I believe that this time, it worked well for giving us vital information about all the players.

I don't care wether you did this because your dice told you to, in fact that only makes it worse since you have even less reasons to vote yourself.

Unless, of course, I've given you my reasons for doing it already and they amount to a greater reward than not doing it. Which I believe I have.

Just don't self vote EVER again.

Again, for personal reasons, I always allow the possibility of it, as personal experience has shown how it can sometimes NAIL scum.

It is only ever useful in very special settings in theme games with weird mechanics that won't ever occur in newbie games or even mini normal games (for example jesters, assassin in the palace) or maybe if you are mafia and don't want to give away any more information or something.

Disagreed--it has uses elsewhere. Again, personal experience has shown me that, sometimes, self-voting can help nail scum, which is why the role was a blessing in disguise.

Not something you should do as a vanilla townie in a newbie game.

This is perhaps one of the most obvious attempts at rolefishing I have ever seen. How would you know what my role is? What are you trying to do, in getting me to respond to it? Answer: My role.

Also, as for the 'getting discussion going' part, yes, you indeed got discussion going, but does this make you more towny? No.

Agreed.

You did something scummy

I've already explained why I disagree with this conclusion, in that I find it to be rather the null tell.

I didn't like Ubaten's 'to show my intentions' thing, but his explanation was reasonable enough I guess. Still something to keep an eye on, especially in these early stages of the game.

Precisely, especially considering his explanation and his vote contradict. If he thought it was scummy to roll, why not vote the person who did the action?

Eh? How would it generate discussion without some people viewing it as slightly scummy and strange for a townie to do?

It wouldn't, I suppose, looking at what has happened, now. There was some logic behind me doing it, and that logic, I can defend.

I believe scum would have more motivation due to the fact that it keeps them participating while minimizing their attacks on others by A) the random roll itself and B) the fact that the vote landed on yourself.

I don't see why scum, of all people, wouldn't want to attack a person in an attempt to get them lynched. It gets them two pro-town players closer to victory.

A newbie scum could fall behind this thinking it was a good idea. I know you can see this, you seem pretty analytical. A pro-town role using the roll in a 'strange, practically unorthodox' way needs to be examined carefully. There is a reason for the examination.

I am aware of the possibility of newbie scum doing it. I just don't see how they could have more, or even equal, for that matter, motivation to do it, when it is clearly a move that only attracts attention to oneself. I welcome the examination. In return, I will be examining other players' reactions to my actions.

But you are right, it does look like it got some people involved rather quickly. If that was truly your goal, then ok. But IGMEOY (I got my eye on you).

It was one of them. It has also led me to my current top suspect, Ub. Unfortunately, nobody else has really contributed much.

First us as townies don't know your intentions. We have to decide that on our own. Second, I don't think he was questioning that. I think he was questioning that you felt the need to both post and tell everyone that you have good intentions. Seems fishy, sorry.

May I quote this for truth?

It was a joke

, hence the (Sorry!), I guess I should have been more liberal with the ironic smileys. If you look at what Mastin wrote in post 25...

Let me link you to some personal experience of mine: Newbie 742. This funny little game. From it, you should be able to get my opinion on people saying something, and later writing it off as a joke.
Yup, happy with my vote.

Townies, who are aware of their own innocence, shouldn't have to start by proving it, they should be out hunting scum. My thoughts at least, and by targetting yourself for discussion you are not hunting scum, you are trying to make us all believe you are innocent.

Nope--I am both defending myself, and looking at other players' reactions, and from those reactions, I am scum hunting. Particularly your reactions, right now, have caught my attention.

Why would anyone want to draw suspicion to themselves (as you have done)?

You're just reasking Scien's questions, Ub. 1: It generates discussion. 2: It helps scum hunt from the generated discussion. I believe that sums it up rather well.

[Scien]

Ok one last question for you Mastin, heh.

Unfortunately, nobody else has really contributed much.

So why are you calling off your tactic? You don't think you could have gained more insight when the current quiet people show up? Is their a reason why you think you have currently pushed this tactic as far as you were comfortable to go?

Basically, why is now the right time? You've seen actions from SirDanilot, Me, Ubaten. Counting yourself that's 4. There are 5 others in the game, you think that your change in focus will alter the responses you get when those guys show up? I think they very well might.

[Mastin]

You don't think you could have gained more insight when the current quiet people show up? Is their a reason why you think you have currently pushed this tactic as far as you were comfortable to go?
Basically, why is now the right time? You've seen actions from SirDanilot, Me, Ubaten. Counting yourself that's 4. There are 5 others in the game, you think that your change in focus will alter the responses you get when those guys show up? I think they very well might.

I found Ub's reactions scummy, and at least until they are answered, I believe they warranted a vote. Others' insight into this topic would help as well, but at the moment, Ub holds my spot as the most suspicious.

[Ubaten]

Thanks Scien!

Why the need to appear liked?

I agree that it was stupid of me to post that comment as everything you say has import in mafia, this is, however, something I learned by browsing through games after I had posted my first post. Something else that I learned is that it is never good to back away from something you've already said and that playing the "newbie-card" seems to be generally frowned upon. That said, my explanation for the whole "good intentions" is that I was trying to be friendly, something I now understand is quite scummy, especially when done for no obvious reason, and that it was a mistake due to me being a newbie.

Then why did you vote for Lleu? That had *nothing* to do with the random roll. My role was on myself, not on Lleu. And what about supposedly random voting? It's either random, or it's not.

The reason I voted for Lleu is as I said that I believe random votes leads to discussion - in this case Lleu might very well respond to my vote asking me why etc, etc... The point was that it was not a random roll, and I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your last question, could you clarify? What about supposedly random voting? Are you questioning my assumption that your vote was not random?

Sorry to respond with counter-questions but I hope I clarified my position.

You're just reasking Scien's questions, Ub. 1: It generates discussion. 2: It helps scum hunt from the generated discussion. I believe that sums it up rather well.

I appreciate that your move generates discussion and it might very well have been a productive move, my problem is that other moves might have been more productive. The problem, as I see it, is this...

On the contrary, reactions I have gotten from this have produced more information than I believe could have ever been created from normal random voting.

Yes the reactions you have gotten has most certainly helped you with your scumhunt. From your point of view that's great but from my point of view, and dare I say that of all of the other people here, I see this:

A lot of discussion has been spawned, great! People are suspecting people because of this discussion, even better! The problem is that I have the same info you have

+

a suspicion (you, for the record) that is not grounded in this discussion but in the fact that someone made an unorthodox move prior to discussion. My point is that this could have been done without me having to be suspicious of you, discussion should be able to flare up with just your ordinary, run-of-the-mill, random votes.

I realize that I am guilty of the same "unorthodox move outside of discussion"-thing and I am sorry about that.

Mastin: What do you think of my perspective on your move, does it make sense?

[Scien]

A lot of discussion has been spawned, great! People are suspecting people because of this discussion, even better! The problem is that I have the same info you have + a suspicion [of Mastin]

Hmm. I don't know if I can follow your logic, you might be stretching a bit too far. Just to make sure, are you suggesting that the fact that he is causing suspicions to come his way is in itself a scummy looking act? Not trying to defend him or anything, I have a few issues with his actions myself, but it looks as if you are making this claim and I don't agree.

Are you just arguing that it was not just the most optimal play? Maybe this is what you are going for instead of above, but that would just be a difference in play style. Unless you are thinking that he was just making a weird play and also thinking that the fact that it was not an anticipated play is scummy. If so, could you maybe explain to me some more on why you think acting in the way Mastin is acting is scummy?

[Mastin]

Something else that I learned is that it is never good to back away from something you've already said and that playing the "newbie-card" seems to be generally frowned upon.

Incorrect. It is better to recognize you made a mistake.

The reason I voted for Lleu is as I said that I believe random votes leads to discussion - in this case Lleu might very well respond to my vote asking me why etc, etc... The point was that it was not a random roll, and I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your last question, could you clarify? What about supposedly random voting? Are you questioning my assumption that your vote was not random?

You said that the role was suspicious, and that you were random voting accordingly. A random vote on Lleu has nothing at all to do with the random role--why?

My point is that this could have been done without me having to be suspicious of you, discussion should be able to flare up with just your ordinary, run-of-the-mill, random votes.

Perhaps, but would it have yielded as much information?

Mastin: What do you think of my perspective on your move, does it make sense?

Enough for me to get the general idea, but I still feel you haven't fully answered my concerns of you, and am content with my vote exactly where it is.

[Lleu]

Before I get too far right at the start, please tell me why you like to start off your games with a random roll result instead of a normal random vote. This exact same thing happened before in my experience, and I had to give that player a hard time as well.

Could I have a link to this game please? You seem to coming down strangely hard, so I'd like to examine this instance you refer to.

Then why did you vote for Lleu? That had *nothing* to do with the random roll. My role was on myself, not on Lleu. And what about supposedly random voting? It's either random, or it's not.

I am also confused about what you're saying here.

My point is that this could have been done without me having to be suspicious of you, discussion should be able to flare up with just your ordinary, run-of-the-mill, random votes.

This seems slightly scummy to me. What's so sacred about the RVS that it can't be abandoned?

Overall, I don't really have a problem with Mastin's vote. I'm kind of curious as to why Scien came down so hard, but I want to see that other game before judging.

[Lleu]

Mastin: The thing you do with the dice is "roll." Things such as doc, cop, etc are "role." It's kind of hard to follow when you switch them up.

[Mastin]

Could I have a link to this game please? You seem to coming down strangely hard, so I'd like to examine this instance you refer to.

Sure. Scien and I played in Newbie 735 together.

This seems slightly scummy to me. What's so sacred about the RVS that it can't be abandoned?

A fine point, one which I agree with.

Mastin: The thing you do with the dice is "roll." Things such as doc, cop, etc are "role." It's kind of hard to follow when you switch them up.

...Oops. I'll try to be more careful. :/

[Ubaten]

Are you just arguing that it was not just the most optimal play?

Yes, that is exactly what I am doing, the reason being that Mastin objected to my thoughts on his random roll move. That is why I wanted to hear from Mastin what he thought of my view of his move. To clarify: I don't think the drawing attention to yourself move is scummy in itself but I do think it's detrimental for town and therefore as I said = minor scummyness. And as for random rolls, let me respond to this:

You said that the role was suspicious, and that you were random voting accordingly. A random vote on Lleu has nothing at all to do with the random role--why?

I voted according to my belief that a random roll vote is a bit scummy and contra-productive and as I prefer not seeming scummy and being productive I voted a random vote instead, with no evidence whatsoever, but at an inactive player.

This seems slightly scummy to me. What's so sacred about the RVS that it can't be abandoned?

There is nothing sacred about the RVS, I just think that Mastins move was less-than-optimal and because of that, a bit scummy. If you agree with my view on the result of his move he has (probably very slightly, I admit) hindered town.

Enough for me to get the general idea, but I still feel you haven't fully answered my concerns of you, and am content with my vote exactly where it is.

This doesn't really help. What concerns are these? And please answer my question:

...and I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your last question, could you clarify? What about supposedly random voting? Are you questioning my assumption that your vote was not random?

I understand that you have a very aggressive playstyle Mastis, you seem awfully eager to have me look like scum...

post 35:

May I quote this for truth?

Precisely, especially considering his explanation and his vote contradict. If he thought it was scummy to roll, why not vote the person who did the action?

post 43:

[qoute="Mastis"]A fine point, one which I agree with.[/quote]

...but without proposing any evidence for your accusations you seem quite scummy to me.

unvote Lleu

[Lleu]

post 35:

May I quote this for truth?

Precisely, especially considering his explanation and his vote contradict. If he thought it was scummy to roll, why not vote the person who did the action?

post 43:

[qoute="Mastis"]A fine point, one which I agree with.

...but without proposing any evidence for your accusations you seem quite scummy to me.

unvote Lleu

[/quote]
I'm not sure where you were going with this. Can you explain more?
Also, if you find him "quite scummy," why not vote?

[Mastin]

To clarify: I don't think the drawing attention to yourself move is scummy in itself but I do think it's detrimental for town and therefore as I said = minor scummyness.

Fair enough.

I voted according to my belief that a random roll vote is a bit scummy and contra-productive and as I prefer not seeming scummy and being productive I voted a random vote instead, with no evidence whatsoever, but at an inactive player.

This paragraph...just...seemed...so...scummy. It's hard to put into words how scummy it is, but let me try.
Again, I'm interpreting this as you voted for Lleu, because Lleu was supposedly inactive, with no evidence, yet you saw me as more scummy and counter-productive, in an effort to appear not scummy yourself.
I can't see a pro-town player thinking like that. It kind of seems like you're trying to lead, well, two lynches, actually.

This doesn't really help. What concerns are these? And please answer my question:

I don't know if there is an answer to that question. I suppose you could say yes, that I'm questioning whether you did what you said you were doing.

I understand that you have a very aggressive playstyle Mastis, you seem awfully eager to have me look like scum...

Ever consider that it might be because I see you currently as the best candidate for scum?

...but without proposing any evidence for your accusations you seem quite scummy to me.

I have been.
-You seem to be constantly contradicting with yourself.
-Your actions suggest the possibility of scum trying to get two different targets lynched, if one fails.
-You've done what I interpreted as dodging against some of my questions.

It is too early to be certain, yes, but you're my best suspect.

Also, if you find him "quite scummy," why not vote?

I can answer this, from both the pro-town and pro-scum perspective, but I do not wish to answer for him, and want to see what Ub has to say about it first...

[Scien]

Woah woah woah wait... let me quote everything for you Ubatem. I know what Mastin is trying to ask, and neither of you at the moment are understanding each other.

vote: Lleu

3. An answer (of sorts) to Scien who associated random roll voting = minor scummyness. I tend to agree and

voted accordingly.

Then why did you vote for Lleu? That had *nothing* to do with the random roll. My role was on myself, not on Lleu. And what about supposedly random voting? It's either random, or it's not.

This is what is confusing. You are claiming to agree with me, but then say that backs up your vote on Lleu. I think you were confused. You were voting for Lleu, not Mastin. Long story short, your vote on Lleu has nothing to do with your 3) comment above, but you made it sound like it did. Whats up?

Ok long story short, and if it helps you to stop for a moment let me advise you with Mastin's own words.

-You seem to be constantly contradicting with yourself. [...]
-You've done what I interpreted as dodging against some of my questions.

You are moving around from point to point like you are scared. Don't be. If you are townie you really have nothing to fear. Tell us the truth. Take your time to formulate thoughts before posting, and use quotes as much as possible if you are wanting more information from a specific player. But stay calm and collected. The more inconsistent you are the more you look like scum trying to find the best way out of a hole.

[PhilyEc]

Wow. huge explosion in wall of texts. I'll read through them but I struggle with these kind of beginnings. Makes it hard to analyse for me .-.

[sirdanilot]

Oh, far from it--I've been looking at the results rather carefully, and find people's reaction to them...interesting, to say the least.

Which is exactly what you should do.

I tend to disagree with this point--it gets things going by *giving* us information.

That was what I meant. Sorry for misphrasing.

On the contrary, reactions I have gotten from this have produced more information than I believe could have ever been created from normal random voting. I'm still processing it, but for the most part, I believe that Ub's reaction to it has seemed rather scummy, Scien's reaction is pro-town, and your reaction...not sure. It seems too similar to Scien's for my comfort level.

Well, you're not really bringing up any new points here. You emitted a (minor) scum tell, which got discussion going. Analyzing the discussion is good, but does not make the scum tell smaller.

During

any other stage of the game

, I would agree with you. During the random voting stage, I find it to be acceptable, as the discussion it generates will create more than enough information to find scum tells out of.

It's still scummy and anti town. The fact that it creates discussion doesn't change that. It creates discussion BECAUSE it's such a bad tactic.

Unless, of course, I've given you my reasons for doing it already and they amount to a greater reward than not doing it. Which I believe I have.

This seems a inherent difference in game philosophy rather than alignment.

Not something you should do as a vanilla townie in a newbie game.

This is perhaps one of the most obvious attempts at rolefishing I have ever seen. How would you know what my role is? What are you trying to do, in getting me to respond to it? Answer: My role.

I wasn't rolefishing, nor was I expecting you to answer that with a role. But in retrospect I realise that I should have said 'towny' here instead of 'vanilla townie'. I am sorry for that.

I didn't like Ubaten's 'to show my intentions' thing, but his explanation was reasonable enough I guess. Still something to keep an eye on, especially in these early stages of the game.

Precisely, especially considering his explanation and his vote contradict. If he thought it was scummy to roll, why not vote the person who did the action?

It seems that my argument with mastin has been resolved now. We both have agreed to disagree. I view this more as a personality/game philosophy difference than an alignment difference. Because of this, I am going to

unvote Mastin

.

At this point, we need more input from the other players since a core of 3-4 players is doing all the talking right now. I cannot scumhunt if nobody else posts.