Large Normal 247 - Postgame

[Alianna]

4.10

Votecount 4.10

geraintm (E-1): Lycanfire, Psyche, Enchant, KayJayQueue
Lycanfire (2): Random Nurse, geraintm
KayJayQueue (2): Gypyx, Oblivion

Not Voting (1): Thomith

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-29 13:51:06).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

[Psyche]

you think lf is scum?

[Psyche]

am open to reconsidering you gera if you can give me reads in a way that convinces me that you have them

[Enchant]

VOTE: kay

[Enchant]

I will be honest with ya

I have no fucking clue where mafia sits.

Obviously we don't think that Thomith is mafia so mafia DID vote someone right?

Just who...

[Psyche]

dislike that oblivion's reads haven't progressed since dissuaded from scumreading gypyx

[Psyche]

lf said he had a kay towncase
did he share it?

[Oblivion]

dislike that oblivion's reads haven't progressed since dissuaded from scumreading gypyx

What part of checked out do you not understand? It doesn't agree with you on Gypyx and Thomith. If those two are scum, there is at most one more scum and it isn't looking for those. Its reads were already done with Gypyx and Thomith as town as an assumption. Why would it change?

[Psyche]

i guess i don't "understand" why you checked out instead of working to either improve, continually evaluate, or convince others of your reads

[Oblivion]

i guess i don't "understand" why you checked out instead of working to either improve, continually evaluate, or convince others of your reads

A lack of motivation.

[Lycanfire]

2.15

Votecount 2.15

Ranger (3): Random Nurse, Titus, Oblivion
Hu Tao (3): Ranger, Naerys, PenguinPower
Snow2697 (2): Thomith, Gypyx
PenguinPower (2): KayJayQueue, Hu Tao
Thomith (1): Snow2697

Not Voting (2): geraintm, Lycanfire

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to secure an execution.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2024-04-07 10:29:00).

Mod Notes: The combined mod ISO is here.

This would have been a great point for me to decide Hu Toa was scum and push that wagon along and get momentum going, but I didn't.

Ranger was 100% dead at this post count. Posts like this read like admitting to not having feelings during the game that you have to scramble to fake.

[Lycanfire]

lf said he had a kay towncase
did he share it?

I slept for a long ass time

She's pretty obvious town from interactions with Dave and Ranger. I'll go find the ones that stood out.

[Lycanfire]

you think lf is scum?

He went from not knowing why kay voted you yesterday to voting you himself in OMGUS.

[KayJayQueue]

I feel pretty powerless at this point, I’m not really sure what I can do to help people see that I’m town. Are there any questions I can answer or a case against me I can defend? I don’t want to be mislimmed but I don’t have a strong case to push gera and I refuse to push Lycan because if someone is going to be limmed, I think it hurts town more to lose him since I think he has a better grasp of the game state than I do. I think it’s a mistake to vote me out instead of someone in the {Gera, enchant, oblivion, RN, psyche} group but I don’t know what I can do to move the momentum in a different direction.

[Lycanfire]

I think this is a kneejerk reaction to your playstyle, Kay. It would be easy to play scum and actively try to towntell all game. You have strong opinions, but they're islands in the ocean of your posts. People like conviction, and admitting you don't know where to go in the game frustrates people even irrationally as rather than empathize they will react negatively toward you for not being more town.

For what it's worth I feel like you've been an open book this game. If you are scum, your play here is great and nobody will let you sheep as much

While I work on my post maybe you could link a recent towngame? We've all seen your recent scumgame.

How do you feel about Geraint accusing his wagon and being okay with Gypyx and Oblivion starting a new wagon? Do you feel like he should have interfered based off that game you were scum together?

[KayJayQueue]

My most recent game:

viewtopic.php?t=92448

[Lycanfire]

My read on Kay:

1) Where would Ranger put her teammates? Kay was nearly unmovable from "P14" onward. She only ever dipped at page 27, where she made a single post about the kill being upsetting. I read this as Ranger trying to pocket someone that was vocal about Dave, and dropping Kay the one slot that Ranger did was to make Kay think

she was actually being sorted

. Ranger could have easily blank TRed Kay if they were partners and wouldn't need to fake it. I think Kay was very townie throughout D2.
2) Kay is a non-Ranger voter, but for the first half of D2 might as well had been a voter. She was laser focused on Ranger and reminding Ranger that she was in contention.
3) Kay didn't make an effort to save Ranger, and is making no effort right now to cash in on how she was pushing Ranger D2.

Interactions:

UNVOTE:

That Naerys wagon makes no sense to me.

How hard did you look at the vote reasons? Are they any more or less valid than typical for d1?
Also how does the comment relate to the unvote?

From my point of view this is an interesting comment:
Votecount 1.10

Little Will o' Wisp

(3):

Gypyx

, PenguinPower,

davesaz

Naerys

(3):

Little Will o' Wisp

,

Thomith

, Titus

davesaz

(2):

Hu Tao

, Snow2697

Hu Tao

(2):

NotAScum

, geraintm
PenguinPower (1):

JacksonVirgo

NotAScum

(1): KayJayQueue
Titus (1):

Naerys

Not Voting (2): Random Nurse, Oblivion

Kay's trajectory would have had her vote willow. She didn't oblige until the end of day, making different votes in this time. I feel like dave was trying to manipulate her here.

Ranger, I’ve been waiting patiently for you to catch up. You had been reading page by page originally. Are you caught up? Where exactly are you on reads/do you have an updated reads list? There’s been a lot of talk about how we’re on the wrong path as a town but that argument is feeling cyclical at the moment. I can’t figure out if your latest reads (especially on Naerys) are based on the game as a whole, recent events, or the beginning of the game.

Ranger can you please give explanations for these reads more than just names in a list? I feel like you think we should understand why they were moving up and down relative to the page number…it wasn’t as helpful as I think you believe it was. At least not for me.

I'll say before bed; you all really

have

slacked.

I'm usually not topping the post charts; despite replacing in half a week ago, I'm already the third-highest poster and climbing.

I’m not 100% positive if you are at E-1 or E-2 but once we get a vote count my intent is to either put you at E-1 or hammer, whichever it is. I think we’d all appreciate a claim at this point. I won’t hammer without a claim but I can’t guarantee any one else won’t either.

I'll say before bed; you all really

have

slacked.

I'm usually not topping the post charts; despite replacing in half a week ago, I'm already the third-highest poster and climbing.

I’m not 100% positive if you are at E-1 or E-2 but once we get a vote count my intent is to either put you at E-1 or hammer, whichever it is. I think we’d all appreciate a claim at this point. I won’t hammer without a claim but I can’t guarantee any one else won’t either.

I’m busy until tomorrow, so I can’t address how terrible the votes on me are.

I feel given the site downtime and how horrendous the votes on me are, I’m owed a chance to respond to them and for the wagon to be given a chance to dissipate without the need for a claim.

If you or others disagree, then sure, I can claim, yet you are being foolish for not critically examining how awful the vote pileon is and why it

shouldn’t

merit forcing me to claim.

I don’t think anyone should be discrediting every person that’s voting you just because you say it’s wrong. Obviously we don’t have a way of knowing what is and isn’t “correct” unless someone has extra info. You saying votes are not for valid reasons seems like an unfair assessment of the effort we are putting into solving.

I do find it slightly odd that there hasn’t been any kind of real counter wagon. That might be my only hesitation currently.

I don’t think anyone should be discrediting every person that’s voting you just because you say it’s wrong.

Of course not.

They should be discrediting the votes by looking at the reasons for the votes and seeing

how terrible they are

.

Late, bbl.

Ranger makes another post reply to this 30 minutes later. This seems like an attempt at manipulation, not a one and done SvS interaction:

You saying votes are not for valid reasons seems like an unfair assessment of the effort we are putting into solving.

Clearly not. My assessment of the amount of solving being done is accurate as I’ve done more effort to solve the game in five days than any player has the entire game.

And I can state that as objective fact.

The accuracy of my solve is up for debate.

That I have done it and far more than nearly any other slot isn’t; it’s an objectively true fact.

Ranger's ego rubs Kay the wrong way:

You saying votes are not for valid reasons seems like

an unfair assessment of the effort we are putting into solving

.

I do find it slightly odd that

there hasn’t been any kind of real counter wagon

. That might be my only hesitation currently.

Perhaps consider the contradiction behind the bolded.

To be more explicit;

You cannot seriously claim there’s been solving while also ignoring there’s no counterwagon, half the game isn’t voting, and

no critical analysis of the votes given has been provided

.

Have you looked at the reason for Random Nurse's revote of me?

How about Oblivion?

How about Titus?

Did you look at those reasons for voting and think, "this is valid, this seems to track, I have no disagreements with this"?

I’m willing to bet you didn’t.

So if you didn’t have that thought...

...Where's the alleged effort into solving?

It is almost as if the scum team got an injection of motivation with a replacement player.

Is that accurate? If the scum team includes Ranger and she’s pretty likely to be limmed, wouldn’t a motivated team be aiding in this somehow? Unless I’ve overlooked some posts, I can always go back and reread but it currently seems like everyone is at least content with the Ranger vote. That is slightly worrying to me. Does anyone else have an opinion on lack of counter? Is this just paranoia?

No. That’s critical thinking.

I know who the scum are killing once I flip town.

I feel like I should disengage with this for awhile while I reread the last few pages. You’re making me feel like I’m an idiot and maybe it’s lack of sleep but I’m feeling a bit out of my depth right now. I feel like I’m defending myself for trying to play the game. I think I was even the most vocal about letting you catch up on your reads too. I was very eager for your input especially since Dave didn’t really give me a ton to go off of. I guess I’m just not used to a play style like yours and I’ll have to adjust to it.

Ranger does not oblige the disengage and continues to bother Kay:

I feel like I’m defending myself for trying to play the game.

What a coincidence, so am I!

My argument in part is that the wagon on me, with no counterwagon, is

deliberately designed to prevent players from playing the game

.

It warps the game around me and makes the game entirely about me.

I didn’t sign up for that, nor did I cause it. My efforts have consistently been to

dissuade

that gamestate, as there’s never anything good to come from focusing entirely on one player.

My question to you is

why have my efforts failed?

Why is the game entirely still about me?

I certainly would prefer it otherwise!

So why do I remain the sole focus of players

despite

my efforts?

It’s almost like me remaining the focus is beneficial to scum.

I know which alignment that implies for me.

I was very eager for your input especially since Dave didn’t really give me a ton to go off of. I guess I’m just not used to a play style like yours and I’ll have to adjust to it.

Perhaps you could look at the input I gave, then?

I gave page by page changes in my reads.

Did any stick out to you? Did you even

look

at them?

I gave a basic summary of my reads after I got to my replace-in spot. Did you read my rundown of each slot?

I work best by letting players engage with my content, and elaborating on it when they do.

So why is the engagement so low?

People wanted contributions from my slot.

I gave them

. So why are they pretending I haven’t?

Ranger can you please give explanations for these reads more than just names in a list?

I explain the changes when engaged on them.

As for explaining the reads, you apparently need a read yourself.

From there on Oblivion goes aggro on Ranger. I try to separate them. I tell Ranger there's good reasons to suspect them, they claim and promise more content the next day and never return.

------------------------
Outside of interactions Kay is difficult to read. She goes through periods of uncertainty and "goes with the flow". She's been trigger happy with her vote, but I haven't noticed an agenda with this (unless people think Kay and Psyche are aligned - which I think we should all agree should not be a good pairing). Her reads come from gut feelings and takes time to articulate why. This was frustrating for me to read as otherwise she's been very active and posting in real time with people, which should be great. I think we would all hate to lose to scum!Kay here but we shouldn't let our pride direct us to a bad elimination when we otherwise should have a winning POE. If we can agree on town!Kay here, we're less likely to fumble any potential MELO.

I'm back to the theory that the most likely scenario is the right one for this game. I was distracted by the idea of a fourth mafiaso yesterday, but I think we had the game there. From these interactions especially with Ranger I would be very surprised if they were aligned. Ranger was fighting for her life, and Kay was making the thread (along with Oblivion) all about Ranger's ego and how they were mistreating the people voting her. Which she was, because I told her that too.

[Lycanfire]

tl;dr Kay is town. Just because you can't read her as a player doesn't make her not town. She's town because she does town things, doesn't have an agenda other than pushing what the town wants at the time, and is town through d2 play. Consolidate elsewhere.

[Lycanfire]

Sorry that that took so long but I slept for a long time (am technically on 'vacation' starting today so I did way too much work yesterday in preparation). My phone was blowing up.

[Lycanfire]

Do you still scumread Kay despite her interactions with Ranger, Oblivion? Why do you suspect her?

[KayJayQueue]

How do you feel about Geraint accusing his wagon and being okay with Gypyx and Oblivion starting a new wagon? Do you feel like he should have interfered based off that game you were scum together?

I think it makes sense to accuse those(as in, at least one) voting you of being scum in a situation where I feel like we mostly all believe there are two confirmed town so options are limited. Honestly, I think of the 3 players voting me currently, it’d be crazy not to think at least one of Oblivion/Enchant is scum since I trust Gypyx as town. I don’t fully understand her reasoning for voting for me yet but I don’t think the wagon on me is pure. However, I don’t think Gypyx is the issue.

As it relates to gera, I don’t see a reason for him to interfere with a counter wagon if it’s going to save him. Unless he strongly townreads me, why would he stick his neck out for me if his head is on the chopping block? I’d do the same, in fact, I started getting votes and reacted defensively by voting the biggest wagon at the time which was gera. I don’t think this is indicative of scum in gera’s case because I literally did the same thing.

I feel like him and I don’t necessarily scumread each other but because of the game we played together, I don’t think we’re too fond of each other or each other’s playstyle. We really did not enjoy our previous game together whatsoever but I don’t want to let that influence how I read him in this game. I think the other issue is that because we were scum together, we don’t actually know how to read each other as town. He’s in my lim pool but not my preference. I voted for him because if it’s between him or me, I know I’m town so I’m obviously saving myself if I can. I don’t know what gera is but I know there’s a 1 in 5 chance (based off my own reads) that he’s scum so why would I roll over and die instead of vote him? I think his situation probably boils down to the same thing IF he’s town which is why I’m using myself as an example for similar behavior.

[Oblivion]

Do you still scumread Kay despite her interactions with Ranger, Oblivion? Why do you suspect her?

Honestly it doesnt know. Should it just hammer Gera with 11 hours left? It doesn't really know what to do or if it cares anymore.

[Gypyx]

gypyx a bit frustrating here. i need more help than "i don't think scum!gera makes this sort of stuff" if im going to see why he's town

This is a similar point to you TR'ing me for my snow push in tinkleton

[Gypyx]

that's a pretty good towncase on kay

i guess that leaves me at Psyche / Oblivion as the scumteam?

[Oblivion]

You know it could have hammered by now right?