Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Crazy]

I was prodded. Sorry for not posting. Will come up with something tonight.

[Elmo]

Day 1, Vote Count #3 - Lynching

Skillet (4) <- Electra, sthar8, eldarad, TDC
fuzzylightning (2) <- Jahudo, Crazy
sthar8 (2) <- Incognito, Raging Rabbit
eldarad <- iLord
Crazy <- Skillit
TDC <- springlullaby

Not voting: fuzzylightning.

Boost Count

Electra (5) <- eldarad, Raging Rabbit, TDC, springlullaby, Jahudo
springlullaby <- Jahudo
Incognito <- Skillit
eldarad <- TDC

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch/boost. Crazy has been prodded.

[Raging Rabbit]

I don't really buy you weren't noticing the stuff you wrote, this sorta panicky response looks like scum kicking himself for being suspected.

I was defending

my opinion

and I didn't stop to consider that the questions were directed at someone other than me, or that their primary objective might not be to understand the position I was taking. Would you prefer that I lied and came up with some bullshit reason to be answering other people's questions? The simple fact is that I wasn't paying enough attention to determine that I shouldn't have answered those questions at that time.

How does my response imply that I didn't know what I was writing? I know (and knew) exactly what I was saying, the only problem was that my timing should have been better.

I don't see how my response was panicky, or scummy. You're welcome to show me how admitting a mistake and promising to do better is indicative of alignment.

Going out of your way to answer questions directed at others isn't a sign of not paying attention. I figure by turning it into a mistake and apologizing you where hoping to make it not appear as a scumtell anymore.

[iLord]

Going out of your way to answer questions directed at others isn't a sign of not paying attention. I figure by turning it into a mistake and apologizing you where hoping to make it not appear as a scumtell anymore.

You didn't explain how you found that panicky - it didn't sound like a "OHMYGODI'MCAUGHT" post.

[Crazy]

Few comments... I have to appease my guilt for not contributing yet by doing

something

. Hopefully I'll find great interest in this game soon.

One thing I noticed in my reread was this... yeah, yeah, Incognito mentioned it, too, but I noted it before I read her post.

There are likely either only 2 categories, or 4. it seems presumptuous to assume that all mafia members would be in one category when everyone else falls into one of 2. I agree that people either have or do not have roles, but to assume that either all or no mafia have roles seems like it would require some extra information to assert.

you don't...have extra information about the specifics of the mafia members powers...do you?

Bolded is an accusation.

Further:

the gist of it was that i was not trying to imply any kind of slant either way about E and that i was just trying to make sure that, if we were going to use her theory to frame the discussion about boosting, that it should be as accurate as possible.

Denies that he accused her in the first place.

Unvote, Vote: Skillit

Sthar caught my eye in his first post:

I have a theory about the setup that does not conform 100% with electra's, but it is close. If I'm right, early massclaim might be a game-breaking strategy for town. Unfortunately, while electra's post does support my idea, I don't have enough evidence to be sure, and I can't reveal the reasoning without showing the scum how to mitigate the damage.

So, I'd basically have to ask the town to trust me on a huge risk, which I'm not willing to do without more concrete evidence. What I'll do instead is ask everybody a question.

Do you feel that massclaim might be a viable strategy at this time?

Suggesting a massclaim shows that he knows something most of us don't. Either he's non-vanilla or scum as far as I know. His later posts don't really give me a slant either way on him, so I'm not really feeling the wagon.

I'm now not seeing what possible great benefit Electra would get from getting boosted (presumably as scum) that would warrant a gambit like this. It's not like a boost is an automatic win, right? Which makes me think it's more likely that she's pro-town.

*coughpressure* Scum vibes from TDC and RR. */pressurecough*

Massive QFT to everything that eldarad has said so far.

And... there's some random spill-out of my thoughts. Good night, it's midnight right now.

[fuzzylightning]

Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins

No, but they have all sent out at least the link to the game in their role pm if they didn't say that it has started. I was expecting a link and never got it and didn't think to look for the game.

On to skillit's attack:

I think it was a poor attack on what was a good argument for Electra, who also defended herself quite well. But, I also think it was a less than serious attack, hence the quotations marks in my original post, which was later misconstrued to be a serious attack. I may be reading it wrong but that is just how I interpreted it. I will say that skillit went a little too far in his calling out of Electra not separating the scum into powers and not powers, b/c while it may be illogical, it isn't vital. I feel that he brought his wagon on himself, and that it is deserved, because he kept going on with something that I don't see there, so he made something that was not really all that serious in the beginning, to something major, his attack and the joke in his attack.

[springlullaby]

1. I retract my statement about skillit making a good point in his 'odd case', upon further review, the point he makes diverges from mine. However I do not see what he said so far as indicative of his alignment one way or another.

2. To explain my vote on TDC, I think his vote on skillit is scummy because he evokes the motive 'looks like backpedalling', but I don't see evidence to that.

However, I have a better suspect now.

--------------------------------------------

Unvote, Vote Incognito

1. Incognito has yet to take a position on Electra, indeed despite multiple posts since the beginning of the game, he has not once addressed the Electra issue directly, preferring to ask peripheral questions instead.

I think this is scummy because assuming Electra is town, scum wouldn't know how to react to her post, and would want to gauge town's sentiment first.

Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What do

you

think of Electra?

2. All of Incognito's posts has 'look I'm such a good little townie' written all over them, but has yet to produce anything meaningful.

a. Ask 'soft' questions of doubtful relevance in about every post he makes, but doesn't seem to garner any insights from the answers he got.

Last example to date.

@Electra:

Are sthar8 and Skillit the only two people in this game who you have metas on?

What is the purpose of this question? How do you intend to garner insight from the recipient's answer if any?

FWIW, I didn't really think sthar8's response to my vote was very panicky at all, so I wouldn't mind Raging Rabbit explaining why he thought it was a panicky reaction a bit more.

See 2b

Alright, I apologize for missing the beginning of this game. I forgot to look for the thread and was waiting for a PM saying the game has started, after confirming, which never came.

Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?

Same questions as above.

Bolded mine.

2. A weak vote on sthar, it doesn't convey a sense of suspicions, but rather annoyance at sthar answering in other's stead. When sthar answers, Incognito seems to be satisfied with sthar's response as indicated by post addressing Raggin Rabit, yet vote still on sthar.

Tell me Incognito, what do you think of sthar exactly? Was your vote meaningful in anyway in the first place?

3. A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.

Incognito, I think you very much resemble scum trying to look busy, what do you think?

[eldarad]

I'm still not liking Skillit and haven't been satisfied with his posts since my vote.
I am particuarly bothered because his attack on Electra in post 21 - and it

was

an attack, no matter what he has said since - is later justified in post 27. But a lot of post 27 has obviously been thought of after post 21.
So post 27 isn't explaining the reason for the attack, it is creating reasons as to why the attack was valid

after the event

.

Skillit, do you have any thoughts on who is looking scummy so far? Why are you still voting for Crazy?

I retract my statement about skillit making a good point in his 'odd case', upon further review, the point he makes diverges from mine. However I do not see what he said so far as indicative of his alignment one way or another.

So...what point were you making? How is it different to Skillit's point?

A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.

I was moderately surprised to see your name as the last poster in this thread as I didn't realise you were playing. So yeah, I think the prod was justified.

[TDC]

2. To explain my vote on TDC, I think his vote on skillit is scummy because he evokes the motive 'looks like backpedalling', but I don't see evidence to that.

Could you elaborate?
Which is it, do you think he wasn't attacking Electra in the first place, or do you think he's standing by his attack?

[iLord]

I need to reread - I'm almost completely lost.

[Incognito]

Glad to see you getting more involved now, springlullaby. I almost forgot you were even in this game. Addressing your points.

Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What do

you

think of Electra?

I didn't know what to think of Electra's page 1 claim at first. If it had come from a raw Newbie, I might have checked him or her off as obvtown for it. However, Electra has been on this site for quite some time now, and while I agree that the odds of scum making a gambit like that are low, I think it's still plausible for scum to do it, especially experienced scum. I thought eldarad's rather astute observation that he made

at the bottom of this post

was probably the best reason put forward by anyone to believe Electra might just be town here. I didn't think the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do such a thing on page 1 was powerful enough a reason to check her off as obvtown like everyone else seemed to do, so I preferred to reserve my opinion of her until I saw more content come from her. So to answer your question, as of right now, I'm leaning pro-town on Electra not based on the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do what she did but more based on what eldarad mentioned and her additional contribution to the game.

2. All of Incognito's posts has 'look I'm such a good little townie' written all over them, but has yet to produce anything meaningful.

Um, yeah, this is such weighted bombast. I've been

trying

to hunt scum. I didn't like the initial route the discussion took since it seemed to focus purely on the game mechanics which seems more theoretical to me. I think it's

extremely

easy for scum to hide in that type of discussion since it focuses more on information rather than analysis and leaves people reading completely neutral. I prefer asking questions directly to people and engaging in conversation by analyzing posts and eventually formulating gut reads. In my opinion, theory discussion is very unlikely to reveal much about a person's alignment, so the sooner we could move away from it, the better.

a. Ask 'soft' questions of doubtful relevance in about every post he makes, but doesn't seem to garner any insights from the answers he got.

Eh? All of my questions have been very relevant to the game, and I certainly wouldn't classify them as "'soft' questions" either. Just because I don't immediately reveal my insights from the answers I get doesn't mean that I haven't formulated any opinions on them. When I'm ready to make a case against someone who I think is scum, I'll do so but certainly not this early in the game. Trust me, when I have a scum read on someone I'll make my opinion on the person blatantly obvious. Right now, this is purely the information-gathering stage for me. I've seen certain things from people that make me lean slightly town on them or slightly scum but not enough to come to a definitive answer with respect to their alignments.

@Electra:

Are sthar8 and Skillit the only two people in this game who you have metas on?

What is the purpose of this question? How do you intend to garner insight from the recipient's answer if any?

It would be rather nice if I didn't have to answer your bolded questions until after Electra responded to my question but if you absolutely must know now, I asked the question because I couldn't entirely figure out why she chose to comment solely on sthar8 and Skillit with respect to the meta-game and why her meta leans town on them. I mean, yes, Skillit in particular seems to be receiving the majority of the attention as he has accumulated the most votes thus far, so I could understand why she might have taken the opportunity to vouch for him but then she also referred to sthar8's meta when I personally don't think he seems to be in any real danger as of right now. Her reference to sthar8's scum meta just seemed a bit premature to me, and I wanted to see if there were any underlying reasons for her to do so.

Alright, I apologize for missing the beginning of this game. I forgot to look for the thread and was waiting for a PM saying the game has started, after confirming, which never came.

Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?

Same questions as above.

This was a more minor personal question for me that probably nobody else in the world would use to try and figure out someone's alignment, but I sometimes rely on little questions like this to formulate reads.

Scum can talk during pre-game, correct? Therefore his reference to not receiving a PM to know when the game had started could have been seen as weakly pro-town since, if he was scum, he and his scum buddies might have been going back and forth a bit in conversation before game and might have nudged one another about the game's opening. I wanted to see if his comment was sincere. Obviously I wouldn't base my read of fuzzylightning completely off of this, but I thought it was a small avenue worth probing a bit.

2. A weak vote on sthar, it doesn't convey a sense of suspicions, but rather annoyance at sthar answering in other's stead. When sthar answers, Incognito seems to be satisfied with sthar's response as indicated by post addressing Raggin Rabit, yet vote still on sthar.

Tell me Incognito, what do you think of sthar exactly? Was your vote meaningful in anyway in the first place?

I have a slight meta on sthar8 as I just finished moderating a game in which he was scum in. I thought he played fairly well in that game, and I do have respect for his scum play, so I wanted to place a bit of pressure on him to try and get a better read of him. I thought he kinda skated by a bit in that game particularly on Day 1 as nobody seemed to really place much pressure on him until later on in the game during Day 2. Therefore, I figured that by placing a pressure vote on him early even for more minute reasons I would be able to draw more information out of him and not allow him to skate on by. Plus his answering of posts directed at other people has the potential to lessen the information we can draw from their responses since they could just copy or formulate their response around his own response thereby making any response they do put forward a null tell. I wanted to nip that type of "answering posts directed at other people" thing in the bud immediately.

As for what I think of him: I thought his reaction to my vote was weakly pro-town as he admitted to doing something wrong and didn't try to make up some strange answer about why he was doing what I called him out on which is what I would expect scum to do, but other than that, a majority of his posts have seemed to mainly focus on game mechanics which results in a non-read for me. Having non-reads on people makes Incognito very, very unhappy.

3. A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.

And that's wrong because...?

Incognito, I think you very much resemble scum trying to look busy, what do you think?

Cute. Very cute.

Some of your points seem like a bit of a stretch to me, which is a bit bothersome. I'll try and take it as a slight pro-town sign that you've called me of all people out on certain things when I've pretty much had absolutely nothing directed at me and have been finding myself trying to create my own content to get involved in. But yeah, there ya go.

[Skillit]

I am particuarly bothered because his attack on Electra in post 21...is later justified in post 27

i did this because i was specifically asked to do so. Incog was saying that my making a joke about Electra being like Mohinder i was immediately accepting something that i wasn't and i had to explain why it didn't mean what he was saying it did. and reading it, does it really look like an attack to you?

really

? i think its pretty clear that i wasnt being aggressive towards Electra at all. i was prolly too joke-y with her, but it was honestly just joke-y ness. As electra said we had just finished a game w/ her as the traitor to the town. i don't really think that these remarks can be fairly read as an attack on electra. I think that if anything my fairly obvious tendency to be overly thorough gives more than enough reasoning to suggest it unlikely that i would be attacking anyone in this nonchalant manner. I really think its quite a stretch to take a few statements like this and truss them up to be some covert attack that is completely unlike me that makes no real points and just happens to perfectly coincide with a later justification that it was never an attack at all. occum's razor anyone? I really think that her "i want to be boosted"

Electra

- do you think i was attacking you? Being the one i was addressing, you (and sthar8) have the context behind what i said. did it seem like an attack, or something else?

a lot of post 27 has obviously been thought of after post 21. So post 27 isn't explaining the reason for the attack, it is creating reasons as to why the attack was valid after the event.

You are saying here that because part of it contains reasoning that i couldn't have had when making the initial post, the whole thing is therefore invalidated. but thats flawed thinking, and is just false. Do you think that the enumerated reasonings that i gave are really that implausible/unrealistic/contentious? There is a clear line where i depart from my initial reasonings and add what you would call 'after the fact justification, which i provided as means of further explaining subsequent points that i had made.
You guys are taking this way out of context and blowing it up way too far.

@

ilord

-You mentioned confusion. Here is the issue as i see it. i made a joke about her just wanting to get a boost right after electra made her boost post. Incog took this joke as my immediately accepting her claim. in refuting this i made some more fun about how electra was a traitor in our last game. This is being construed as a feeble attack on her. to me the basic issue is "were the remarks some feeble attempt to attack Electra or were they more likely something else?" I feel like its come down to a "this was an attack!" versus "no, it really wasnt" but there is nothing i can really say because nobody seems to even be

entertaining

the possibility that they are wrong.

[iLord]

@ilord -You mentioned confusion. Here is the issue as i see it. i made a joke about her just wanting to get a boost right after electra made her boost post. Incog took this joke as my immediately accepting her claim. in refuting this i made some more fun about how electra was a traitor in our last game. This is being construed as a feeble attack on her. to me the basic issue is "were the remarks some feeble attempt to attack Electra or were they more likely something else?" I feel like its come down to a "this was an attack!" versus "no, it really wasnt" but there is nothing i can really say because nobody seems to even be entertaining the possibility that they are wrong.

No, I understand your attack and the such.

But I really haven't retained enough knowledge from this game to scumhunt or make a knowledgeable post. I need to reread and to reindulge myself into the game.

I'm lost in that regard.

[Incognito]

Oh and btw, Skillit has now reached L-2. I think sthar8, Electra, and to a lesser extent TDC should at least justify why they feel their votes are on the best wagon at this current time. I know Electra in particular mentioned that she doesn't think Skillit is scum, but she still hasn't removed her vote from him (hey,

springlullaby,

what do you think about that?) and sthar8 mentioned that he's liking the result of his random vote but hasn't really elaborated on his thoughts regarding the points that have been brought up against Skillit. TDC touched on a more minor point about Skillit's backtracking but hasn't engaged in conversation with him or commented on whether he thinks Skillit really was joking around or not.

[Crazy]

Skillit, I don't care about the joke. I want to know why you made an attack on Electra in #21 and later you said that whole thing was just for clarification, and you didn't mean to provide any slant on Electra. (#44)

[Raging Rabbit]

Going out of your way to answer questions directed at others isn't a sign of not paying attention. I figure by turning it into a mistake and apologizing you where hoping to make it not appear as a scumtell anymore.

You didn't explain how you found that panicky - it didn't sound like a "OHMYGODI'MCAUGHT" post.

Maybe the right word is more guiltridden than panicky, it sounds to me like "damn, made a mistake. Guess I'll apologize it away". The way he appears to really kick himself for appearing suspicious stinks of guilt to me.

I'll review the Skilit case when I'll have more time.

[springlullaby]

I retract my statement about skillit making a good point in his 'odd case', upon further review, the point he makes diverges from mine. However I do not see what he said so far as indicative of his alignment one way or another.

So...what point were you making? How is it different to Skillit's point?

I made only 3 posts so far, if you can't bother to read them, don't count on me to babysit you by repeating myself. If you think that my point doesn't diverge from Skillit's, you point out how it is the case.

A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.

I was moderately surprised to see your name as the last poster in this thread as I didn't realise you were playing. So yeah, I think the prod was justified.

Again, do you read? Incognito's prod was not directed at me.

Now tell me, what is the purpose of this post exactly?

2. To explain my vote on TDC, I think his vote on skillit is scummy because he evokes the motive 'looks like backpedalling', but I don't see evidence to that.

Could you elaborate?
Which is it, do you think he wasn't attacking Electra in the first place, or do you think he's standing by his attack?

I may be wrong on this but my leaning is that Skillit's 'odd post' wasn't an attack - see him mentioning the joke at the end of the post; this is a judment call, mine.

In any case I see the case on Skillit as lazy and fail because it all hinges on one question: whether Skillit was attacking Electra, whereas IMO the answers he has provided so far is at least satisfactory enough to nullify the point.

Glad to see you getting more involved now, springlullaby. I almost forgot you were even in this game. Addressing your points.

I do not like the passive-aggressiveness of this, I post when I have something to say, and posting a lot doesn't make you town the same way as posting less doesn't make you scum. What matters is the content. Agree/disagree?

Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What do

you

think of Electra?

I didn't know what to think of Electra's page 1 claim at first. If it had come from a raw Newbie, I might have checked him or her off as obvtown for it. However, Electra has been on this site for quite some time now, and while I agree that the odds of scum making a gambit like that are low, I think it's still plausible for scum to do it, especially experienced scum. I thought eldarad's rather astute observation that he made

at the bottom of this post

was probably the best reason put forward by anyone to believe Electra might just be town here. I didn't think the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do such a thing on page 1 was powerful enough a reason to check her off as obvtown like everyone else seemed to do, so I preferred to reserve my opinion of her until I saw more content come from her. So to answer your question, as of right now, I'm leaning pro-town on Electra not based on the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do what she did but more based on what eldarad mentioned and her additional contribution to the game.

I do not like this answer as I note here that you have to appeal to a reason provided by another person to form an opinion on Electra.

2. All of Incognito's posts has 'look I'm such a good little townie' written all over them, but has yet to produce anything meaningful.

Um, yeah, this is such weighted bombast. I've been

trying

to hunt scum. I didn't like the initial route the discussion took since it seemed to focus purely on the game mechanics which seems more theoretical to me. I think it's

extremely

easy for scum to hide in that type of discussion since it focuses more on information rather than analysis and leaves people reading completely neutral. I prefer asking questions directly to people and engaging in conversation by analyzing posts and eventually formulating gut reads. In my opinion, theory discussion is very unlikely to reveal much about a person's alignment, so the sooner we could move away from it, the better.

You are saying here that you prefer reserving judment before commiting to anything, well let me tell you that I think 8 out of 10 persons who prefer to reserve judment are scum because 1)it is hader for them to form an opinion in the first place2)they want to keep all options open the longer possible, especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case.

What do you think?

a. Ask 'soft' questions of doubtful relevance in about every post he makes, but doesn't seem to garner any insights from the answers he got.

Eh? All of my questions have been very relevant to the game, and I certainly wouldn't classify them as "'soft' questions" either. Just because I don't immediately reveal my insights from the answers I get doesn't mean that I haven't formulated any opinions on them. When I'm ready to make a case against someone who I think is scum, I'll do so but certainly not this early in the game. Trust me, when I have a scum read on someone I'll make my opinion on the person blatantly obvious. Right now, this is purely the information-gathering stage for me. I've seen certain things from people that make me lean slightly town on them or slightly scum but not enough to come to a definitive answer with respect to their alignments.

Does the post you linked have a relevance to the present game at all?

As for your 'info-gathering stage' see above.

@Electra:

Are sthar8 and Skillit the only two people in this game who you have metas on?

What is the purpose of this question? How do you intend to garner insight from the recipient's answer if any?

It would be rather nice if I didn't have to answer your bolded questions until after Electra responded to my question but if you absolutely must know now, I asked the question because I couldn't entirely figure out why she chose to comment solely on sthar8 and Skillit with respect to the meta-game and why her meta leans town on them. I mean, yes, Skillit in particular seems to be receiving the majority of the attention as he has accumulated the most votes thus far, so I could understand why she might have taken the opportunity to vouch for him but then she also referred to sthar8's meta when I personally don't think he seems to be in any real danger as of right now. Her reference to sthar8's scum meta just seemed a bit premature to me, and I wanted to see if there were any underlying reasons for her to do so.

1. 'Lean town on both of them' : this is not what I gathered from her post.

2. Surely if you had wanted to see if there were any underlying reason to her bringing forth the meta, the easiest way to do it would have been to verify her say by meta-ing her? Because if she is scum, wouldn't you expect her to lie?

Alright, I apologize for missing the beginning of this game. I forgot to look for the thread and was waiting for a PM saying the game has started, after confirming, which never came.

Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?

Same questions as above.

This was a more minor personal question for me that probably nobody else in the world would use to try and figure out someone's alignment, but I sometimes rely on little questions like this to formulate reads.

Scum can talk during pre-game, correct? Therefore his reference to not receiving a PM to know when the game had started could have been seen as weakly pro-town since, if he was scum, he and his scum buddies might have been going back and forth a bit in conversation before game and might have nudged one another about the game's opening. I wanted to see if his comment was sincere. Obviously I wouldn't base my read of fuzzylightning completely off of this, but I thought it was a small avenue worth probing a bit.

I don't see the connection between the question you asked and the answer you provided.

How can you determine if his comment was sincere by asking him about previous games? Again, if he is scum, don't you expect him to lie? And what is the connection between him possibly talking back and forth as scum before the gamestart and the question you asked?

2. A weak vote on sthar, it doesn't convey a sense of suspicions, but rather annoyance at sthar answering in other's stead. When sthar answers, Incognito seems to be satisfied with sthar's response as indicated by post addressing Raggin Rabit, yet vote still on sthar.

Tell me Incognito, what do you think of sthar exactly? Was your vote meaningful in anyway in the first place?

I have a slight meta on sthar8 as I just finished moderating a game in which he was scum in. I thought he played fairly well in that game, and I do have respect for his scum play, so I wanted to place a bit of pressure on him to try and get a better read of him. I thought he kinda skated by a bit in that game particularly on Day 1 as nobody seemed to really place much pressure on him until later on in the game during Day 2. Therefore, I figured that by placing a pressure vote on him early even for more minute reasons I would be able to draw more information out of him and not allow him to skate on by. Plus his answering of posts directed at other people has the potential to lessen the information we can draw from their responses since they could just copy or formulate their response around his own response thereby making any response they do put forward a null tell. I wanted to nip that type of "answering posts directed at other people" thing in the bud immediately.

As for what I think of him: I thought his reaction to my vote was weakly pro-town as he admitted to doing something wrong and didn't try to make up some strange answer about why he was doing what I called him out on which is what I would expect scum to do, but other than that, a majority of his posts have seemed to mainly focus on game mechanics which results in a non-read for me. Having non-reads on people makes Incognito very, very unhappy.

I can accept your reason to want to pressure sthar, but I think your behavior is not very offensive at all and is in contradiction with your stated intentions which is to pressure him.

3. A prod within the first 3 pages, wtf.

And that's wrong because...?

Posting prod very shortly after the game have started is scummy because it serves nothing as the player in question may just not have had the occasion to post yet. However, I will concede this point, upon further verification, you posted the prod 3 days after game start, which is a short-ish delay but acceptable for a prod. In my recollection, it happened earlier.

Incognito, I think you very much resemble scum trying to look busy, what do you think?

Cute. Very cute.

What is the meaning of this? Do I detect dismissal?

Some of your points seem like a bit of a stretch to me, which is a bit bothersome. I'll try and take it as a slight pro-town sign that you've called me of all people out on certain things when I've pretty much had absolutely nothing directed at me and have been finding myself trying to create my own content to get involved in. But yeah, there ya go.

Why 'try and take it'? I'm not asking you for any favor. If you think some of my point are stretching, please indicates which and why.

Oh and btw, Skillit has now reached L-2. I think sthar8, Electra, and to a lesser extent TDC should at least justify why they feel their votes are on the best wagon at this current time. I know Electra in particular mentioned that she doesn't think Skillit is scum, but she still hasn't removed her vote from him (hey,

springlullaby,

what do you think about that?) and sthar8 mentioned that he's liking the result of his random vote but hasn't really elaborated on his thoughts regarding the points that have been brought up against Skillit. TDC touched on a more minor point about Skillit's backtracking but hasn't engaged in conversation with him or commented on whether he thinks Skillit really was joking around or not.

To answer the part addressed to me, I don't see where Electra said she doesn't think Skillit is scum.

Skillit, I don't care about the joke. I want to know why you made an attack on Electra in #21 and later you said that whole thing was just for clarification, and you didn't mean to provide any slant on Electra. (#44)

FOS Crazy, I don't like this. But I'll let Skillit answer fist before saying why.

Right now, I stand by my opinion that Incognito has been trying to look busy while contributing nothing of import to the game.

I also am opposed to boost on Incognito, and Crazy.

[springlullaby]

EBWOP, bolded mine in above quotes.

[Jahudo]

As for Skillet, he seems to be acting similarly to last game, but of course that doesn’t necessarily mean he’s mafia.

Can you elaborate any on the similarities you see in Skillit's behavior? Does it have anything to do with his joking attitude? How did you read his comments towards your setup ideas?

But I really haven't retained enough knowledge from this game to scumhunt or make a knowledgeable post. I need to reread and to reindulge myself into the game.

Any particular reason why this game has been hard to grasp?

[sthar8]

Rough weekend. Sick. Will post more on monday.

[Electra]

Yup, according to the mod, boosts happen at night.

@ sthar – I thought it worked like lynching in this game, where if we don’t lynch anyone, we can take back the boost as well. As for boosting someone who did something similar… yes. Honestly, the ideal situation for me would have been someone doing the exact same thing as me but like… minutes after me, before another response. Then to me, that person would be town as well, because I wouldn’t believe that scum would be bold enough to have that kind of reaction that quickly. Obviously at this point, there’s been enough talking about it that I would be skeptical of anyone trying to pull the same thing now.

@ Incognito – Yup. I don’t think I know anything about anyone else. I just finished a game with sthar and skillet, like I said. I think the only other person here I’ve ever been in a game with is Crazy, but I forgot which one.

Lol @ Jahudo for fosing yourself. XD

@ Skillet – Well, when you first made the comment about Mohinder, I assumed that you believed I was protown. When you were bringing up the part about three vs four possibilities, and when you were saying that “did I have any info on the mafia winkwink” I saw that as a weak-ish attack. You didn’t really push an attack on me after that, but I think there was a general consensus that I was more town than not, so if you continued to do so, it would seem anti-town?

@ Incognito – I didn’t comment that I don’t think he’s scum. As for leaving my vote on, it’s because I’m deciding whether or not I think he’s scummy, and it would just be weird to take my random vote off now and revote him if I decide on it. :p

@ Jahudo – I guess what’s similar is the long rambling nature of his posts, and his continuing to make said posts about one specific topic. (In this case, his posts about me, in the game before, he was pursuing someone.) The differences are that he seems nicer overall than the posts from the previous game. I tried to find town meta to complement the scum meta, but it looks like he’s been scum in both of his completed games? (Correct me if I’m wrong, skillet :p)

Still thinking, but if I continue to be unsure, I might actually vote Crazy. I found his initial post to be scummy, as I said before, and then his post about how he was going to post something is also scummy-ish. (Because he’s waiting to craft a post that doesn’t seem scummy?) And then his third post is very textbook scummy – as in he expressed some random suspicions and jumped on the largest wagon.

[eldarad]

I made only 3 posts so far, if you can't bother to read them, don't count on me to babysit you by repeating myself. If you think that my point doesn't diverge from Skillit's, you point out how it is the case.

In your second post you certainly appear to believe that you are agreeing with Skillit. In your third post, you retract that agreement. Since you hadn't added any content in between, the change must have been in your thought process - that had not been posted in-thread.
Either Skillit made a good point, or he didn't. Can you clarify your opinion on that please?

Again, do you read? Incognito's prod was not directed at me.

Fair enough. I still hadn't realised that you were playing, which suggests that you hadn't been posting enough up until then.

[TDC]

Oh and btw, Skillit has now reached L-2. I think sthar8, Electra, and to a lesser extent TDC should at least justify why they feel their votes are on the best wagon at this current time. [..] TDC touched on a more minor point about Skillit's backtracking but hasn't engaged in conversation with him or commented on whether he thinks Skillit really was joking around or not.

I read it as a real attack, yes.
He then posted a couple of things about the 4v3 issue, to finally come to the conclusion that it wasn't indicative of Electra's alignment anyway.
I found that - wait for it -

odd

. Anyway, that's what I meant with the backpedalling, why waltz the issue out like that if you don't think it's telling? I don't buy that it was an important theory issue whether mafia can have roles or not.

I agree it's not a particularly strong case, but the best I saw at the time. (And I still don't see a better one).

I assume that by mentioning the L-2 you're trying to say that this is dangerous or whatever, but I don't think that skillit is in immediate danger of being lynched right now.

--------

I may be wrong on this but my leaning is that Skillit's 'odd post' wasn't an attack - see him mentioning the joke at the end of the post; this is a judment call, mine.

If it was just your judgement, how can you call other people scummy for having a different judgement?

---------

sthar8: I'm wondering. Did you really think that a majority of people might be willing to go for an early Day 1 mass claim?
Seems to make little sense to suggest it (and imply you know more than most by doing so) without being sort of confident that it could actually happen.

---------

Maybe the right word is more guiltridden than panicky, it sounds to me like "damn, made a mistake. Guess I'll apologize it away". The way he appears to really kick himself for appearing suspicious stinks of guilt to me.

Do you think it's more damning that he answered in place of others, or how he excused it?
If it's the latter (and that seems to be the case), how would a response have looked like that's less suspicious?

[Incognito]

Quote blocks are a real pet peeve of mine, just so you know, and I apologize to everyone for these series of tl;dr's beforehand but... yeah.

Glad to see you getting more involved now, springlullaby. I almost forgot you were even in this game. Addressing your points.

I do not like the passive-aggressiveness of this, I post when I have something to say, and posting a lot doesn't make you town the same way as posting less doesn't make you scum. What matters is the content. Agree/disagree?

I don't think I was being passive-aggressive at all. A tad sarcastic maybe but not passive-aggressive. I agree that post number has no correlation with whether or not someone is pro-town or pro-scum but that wasn't the point I was getting at. The point of my comment was more in reference to how the content that you

did

put forward before you decided to come forward against me wasn't all that impressive, and I was eagerly anticipating your real entrance to the game. In fact, before you came in with your "case" against me, I was actually tempted to switch my vote to you for lurking.

By making the above bolded comment, you seem to be implying that the little you put forward within that first post of yours before my comment was good content. Do you really think your own post 52 really amounted to much? You pretty much regurgitated what everyone else said about Electra without really delving into why you felt this way (I even asked you to go into this further here) and then you voted for TDC for the vaguest of reasons. If you feel like post 52 amounted to a good amount, I'd like you to explain why.

Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What do

you

think of Electra?

I didn't know what to think of Electra's page 1 claim at first. If it had come from a raw Newbie, I might have checked him or her off as obvtown for it. However, Electra has been on this site for quite some time now, and while I agree that the odds of scum making a gambit like that are low, I think it's still plausible for scum to do it, especially experienced scum. I thought eldarad's rather astute observation that he made

at the bottom of this post

was probably the best reason put forward by anyone to believe Electra might just be town here. I didn't think the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do such a thing on page 1 was powerful enough a reason to check her off as obvtown like everyone else seemed to do, so I preferred to reserve my opinion of her until I saw more content come from her. So to answer your question, as of right now, I'm leaning pro-town on Electra not based on the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do what she did but more based on what eldarad mentioned and her additional contribution to the game.

I do not like this answer as I note here that you have to appeal to a reason provided by another person to form an opinion on Electra.

Not trying to get semantic but "appeal" is an interesting choice of words. I don't think I was appealing to anything. I read eldarad's thoughts about Electra's early claim, thought about it on my own, and decided to

agree

with what he had mentioned. And as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with thinking logically about something someone else has written and agreeing with it, especially when coupling those thoughts with additional in-thread evidence from the person you're analyzing and formulating your own thoughts about it. As I mentioned above, I didn't really like everyone else's reasons for suggesting that Electra was obvtown, and I was choosing to reserve judgment until she posted more, thereby allowing me to get a better read of her. I even mentioned in the above quote that you quoted that the other reason I thought Electra might be more likely pro-town as opposed to pro-scum was because of her additional contribution. Did you miss that part?

Um, yeah, this is such weighted bombast. I've been

trying

to hunt scum. I didn't like the initial route the discussion took since it seemed to focus purely on the game mechanics which seems more theoretical to me. I think it's

extremely

easy for scum to hide in that type of discussion since it focuses more on information rather than analysis and leaves people reading completely neutral. I prefer asking questions directly to people and engaging in conversation by analyzing posts and eventually formulating gut reads. In my opinion, theory discussion is very unlikely to reveal much about a person's alignment, so the sooner we could move away from it, the better.

You are saying here that you prefer reserving judment before commiting to anything, well let me tell you that I think 8 out of 10 persons who prefer to reserve judment are scum because 1)it is hader for them to form an opinion in the first place2)they want to keep all options open the longer possible, especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case.

What do you think?

Where did I say anything about reserving judgment in that quote you posted? I was talking about scum hunting and how I felt a large portion of the conversation early on was purely theoretical, which allows for easy scum hiding and how I wanted to move away from exactly that type of discussion ASAP. I specifically mentioned that theory discussion states very little about a person's alignment and how I'd rather engage in conversation with people to figure out where they're coming from.

And who are you, the Neils Bohr of Mafia or something? Have you been running statistical analysis to come forward with these numbers, or are you just pulling them out of your ass to help add even more weighted bombast to an already weak case? Have you considered that it's usually a good idea to reserve judgment on people because it's, oh, I don't know, a bad thing when you find yourself running up on someone who ends up being innocent? Is it abnormal for someone to not know who exactly is scum on page fucking 4 of the thread and who is instead choosing to use this early time to try and figure people out?

Eh? All of my questions have been very relevant to the game, and I certainly wouldn't classify them as "'soft' questions" either. Just because I don't immediately reveal my insights from the answers I get doesn't mean that I haven't formulated any opinions on them. When I'm ready to make a case against someone who I think is scum, I'll do so but certainly not this early in the game. Trust me, when I have a scum read on someone I'll make my opinion on the person blatantly obvious. Right now, this is purely the information-gathering stage for me. I've seen certain things from people that make me lean slightly town on them or slightly scum but not enough to come to a definitive answer with respect to their alignments.

Does the post you linked have a relevance to the present game at all?

As for your 'info-gathering stage' see above.

I posted that link because I

think

one of the points of your "case" against me focused on how I didn't immediately reveal my own thoughts with respect to the answers I received to my own questions and how you supposedly perceived this as scummy because I wasn't revealing my own insight with respect to my position on the other players' alignments. I was using that link to show you that when I'm ready to make my thoughts clear on why I think a particular person is scum, I'll do it in typical Incog-fashion by posting a well-elaborated, thoughtful case against said person. I haven't garnered enough information from this game yet to do so though obviously.

1. 'Lean town on both of them' : this is not what I gathered from her post.

This is true. I actually misread her post and thought she mentioned that she was leaning town on Skillit as well as sthar8. It was only sthar8 who she mentioned she didn't have a problem with so far.

2. Surely if you had wanted to see if there were any underlying reason to her bringing forth the meta, the easiest way to do it would have been to verify her say by meta-ing her? Because if she is scum, wouldn't you expect her to lie?

In response to your first question: Um, no? How could I possibly determine if there were any underlying reasons for her citing meta in this particular game for two people in particular by... actually going forth and meta-ing her? Are you suggesting that people's alignments from previous games carry over or something?

In response to your second question: Yes, you would expect scum to lie about things, but by asking questions to people you can pick up on inconsistencies, check back on things to see if they jibe with what said person is saying, and determine if the person is being sincere or not. How exactly do you expect to find scum if you don't ask people questions? Do we twiddle our thumbs and hope that the scum come forward saying "HI I'M SCUM! LYNCH ME!"

And do you even realize how little sense you're making right now? You've adamantly stated that you think I'm scum, but yet, (DEEP BREATH), you're asking ME of all people questions! OMG! IMAGINE THAT! Aren't you afraid that I'm lying right now?

This was a more minor personal question for me that probably nobody else in the world would use to try and figure out someone's alignment, but I sometimes rely on little questions like this to formulate reads.

Scum can talk during pre-game, correct? Therefore his reference to not receiving a PM to know when the game had started could have been seen as weakly pro-town since, if he was scum, he and his scum buddies might have been going back and forth a bit in conversation before game and might have nudged one another about the game's opening. I wanted to see if his comment was sincere. Obviously I wouldn't base my read of fuzzylightning completely off of this, but I thought it was a small avenue worth probing a bit.

I don't see the connection between the question you asked and the answer you provided.

How can you determine if his comment was sincere by asking him about previous games? Again, if he is scum, don't you expect him to lie? And what is the connection between him possibly talking back and forth as scum before the gamestart and the question you asked?

springlullaby, how could he possibly know the intention of my question to be able to know whether or not to lie about his answer when I didn't even specifically mention why I asked him about it until you questioned me about my own question's intent? If you yourself have expressed this inability to understand the true point of my own question, do you think

he

would have been able to understand my reason for asking and would know which answer he should give as a hypothetical scum to deceive me? And again, you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that you are completely contradicting your own points by repeatedly asking me questions when, if your suspicion of me is truly genuine, you probably think I would lie about my answers since you think I'm scum.

As for the connection between gamestart and the question I asked, think harder about that one and maybe it'll come to you.

I can accept your reason to want to pressure sthar, but I think your behavior is not very offensive at all and is in contradiction with your stated intentions which is to pressure him.

Really? Why's that? I think I've been aggressively trying to scum hunt so far actually.

Cute. Very cute.

What is the meaning of this? Do I detect dismissal?

Superfluous questions receive ridiculous answers from me. Your question was a superfluous question.

Some of your points seem like a bit of a stretch to me, which is a bit bothersome. I'll try and take it as a slight pro-town sign that you've called me of all people out on certain things when I've pretty much had absolutely nothing directed at me and have been finding myself trying to create my own content to get involved in. But yeah, there ya go.

Why 'try and take it'? I'm not asking you for any favor. If you think some of my point are stretching, please indicates which and why.

I did. I specifically referred to one of your points as "weighted bombast", I specifically mentioned that I am scum hunting and asking relevant questions rather than "asking 'soft' questions that are irrelevant to the game". If that's not pointing out that your points are a bit of a stretch, then I don't know what is.

And I'm trying to take it as a positive sign because I know that my immediate impression from your attack on me is that it's slightly scummy for stretching the truth the way you have. Instead of immediately jumping to conclusions about your alignment, I'll continue trying to engage in conversation with you to see if you genuinely believe the points you're raising against me or if they're merely contrived and created to paint me in a bad light. Usually when someone makes a case against me, I can sometimes see where the person is coming from and why the person might think something I mentioned gave them a bad vibe. But with you, I really can't see that, and I'm becoming more and more curious about what your alignment really could be.

[Incognito]

@ Incognito – I didn’t comment that I don’t think he’s scum. As for leaving my vote on, it’s because I’m deciding whether or not I think he’s scummy, and it would just be weird to take my random vote off now and revote him if I decide on it. :p

Yeah, sorry, I misread your comment on Skillit. Thanks for clearing that up.

I assume that by mentioning the L-2 you're trying to say that this is dangerous or whatever, but I don't think that skillit is in immediate danger of being lynched right now.

No, I don't think he's in any real danger right now either, but I suspect that the wagon that's formed on Skillit is not a random D1 wagon being put forward to figure things out from people -- it seems like a more serious wagon. Therefore, I mentioned that because I'd like for the people who are still on his wagon who haven't particularly elaborated further on what they thought about Skillit's more recent posts to own up to their own votes. I felt like some of the votes were still a bit wagony.

@Skillit:

I might have missed this, but I didn't see an answer to eldarad's questions in post 82. I, too, am curious to know who you're suspicious of at this time and why as you haven't really taken a serious stance on anyone so far with the exception of me. A lot of your posts have been in defense to accusations.