Newbie 2053 | Primroses | Game Over

[Battle Mage]

Hello, i solved game allready and in theory you can close it.

Roles:
Cook - Vanilla Townie
SiLentKilLeR - Serial Killer
Dew - Jester
endlessdark - Town Jailkeeper
Qspaces - Town Doctor
Enchant - Town Vigilante
Battle Mage (SE) - Town Mayor
WhemeStar (SE) - Condemner.
Prism (SE) - Mafia Goon.


Vote SK first so less night kills.

VOTE: SiLentKilLeR

I'm with ya! VOTE: Silentkiller

[Battle Mage]

hello Cook! shall we prematurely townblock?

[Battle Mage]

hello Cook! shall we prematurely townblock?

I will join the townblock.

sweet, how about you, me, Cook and Prism?

[Battle Mage]

Prism doesn't wanna talk to me, so I'm going to bed...

[Battle Mage]

Enchant have you played scum yet on the site?

VOTE: Prism

avoiding this thread for some reason

[Battle Mage]

Is it too early to assume Cook isn't mafia with Dew? I wouldn't expect a newbie to vote their partner so early. WhemeStar on the other hand is semi experienced so I wouldn't say the same thing about him and Enchant.

I mildly like this. no scum motive to eliminate pairings early like this. although in my experience, newbie-scum RVS votes their partner like...all the time.

[Battle Mage]

hello Cook! shall we prematurely townblock?

Premature townblock?

I'm in for it.

legend!

hello Cook! shall we prematurely townblock?

I will join the townblock.

sweet, how about you, me, Cook and Prism?

i am voting prism they cant be in it

that's a good take, i'm with ya.

I'm with ya! VOTE: Silentkiller

Did Not_Mafia bite you, or something? We can still cure it, atleast before you start claim Jester and hammer everyone.

Why is htere only 1 VT

Mafia killed others before game, so yes, only one VT.

sweet, how about you, me, Cook and Prism?

I want join too!

re: Not_Mafia, I can't comment on ongoing games. If you help me put pressure on Prism, I'll consider your application to join the mighty townblock.

[Battle Mage]

i noticed. it really won't take much effort though? it's page 2 of a newbie game?

[Battle Mage]

Took me 3+ hours to bother checking the thread, you do the math.

Don't like RVS, driving out of it not a focus for me atm, wagon on me is fine, I have issues with the Ellitell but cannot directly comment on it-which is a wonderfully garbage loophole-and not moving my random vote atm even though you're tempting.

Anything else or can I go now?

None of this comes close to convincing me you're town. Did you really join a newbie game as an SE player, with no intention of getting involved/helping kick things off/assist the newbies? I don't buy that you have some policy of not posting until later in the game - I read another game of yours where you were town and were active and driving things early.

Why would you be tempted to vote for me? Because I'm putting you under scrutiny when you'd rather just coast?

[Battle Mage]

I was trying to articulate why, but it's basically intuition -- VOTE: Prism

Why did you decide to vote Prism here?

Their post and vote strikes me as an inconspicuous attempt to "fit in". The townblock folks are attracting more attention so I don't feel the same way about them yet. This is (obviously?) far from a strong read though.

What makes their post different than the two prior posts that were casting votes?

It's not much different from others. Prism, though, didn't participate in the townblock thing which contributes to me preferentially voting them. I'm new to forum mafia, but based on my realtime mafia experience, attracting attention is less often done by the mafs.

This is honestly an overanalyzed read that I've made with minimal information. I think it's simpler to just say intuition.

I think your intuition is on the money.

[Battle Mage]

You wondered why I'm avoiding the thread.

You know exactly why I am avoiding the thread

and why I take issue with it, but I cannot explain beyond what I just said via the ruleset, and you know this and are exploiting it.

This is incorrect. To be clear, I have no idea why you would be deliberately avoiding the thread as town - which is precisely my point. I can see why, as scum, you might want to lay low and avoid attention. Town players tend to be more relaxed with their posting.

You are experienced enough that, if you were town, you would completely understand my thought-process here. But instead you're leaning towards an OMGUS vote on me, which further incriminates you.

[Battle Mage]

@BM, what are you looking for Prism to do?

to post something (anything!) which helps determine if they are town or scum - rather than just lurking.

[Battle Mage]

There's dissonance between BM claiming to have meta'd Prism and BM claiming to not know why Prism is not active in this thread. Looking at Prism's post history is explanation enough.

I'd say completely the opposite - looking at Prism's post history is precisely why I didn't understand their lack of activity here (before coming under some pressure). That's the only real way you can judge whether someone is lurking, or just busy doing non-mafia stuff.

Subsequently, I'm baffled at Prism's argument that I "know" a pro-town reason why they would be deliberately avoiding this game.

[Battle Mage]

Subsequently, I'm baffled at Prism's argument that I "know" a pro-town reason why they would be deliberately avoiding this game.

Where did he say it was pro-town?

I guess you're right, maybe my interpretation was generous! But I think he was implying it to be a pro-town reason (strictly meaning not pro-scum). Unless you're asking if there was a personal non-game-related reason? In which case...why would he have said I know what that is? I don't know Prism personally.

[Battle Mage]

at risk of this becoming a complete angle-shoot, let me re-frame the argument slightly:

BM calls out Prism for perceived lurking
Prism admits lurking but claims it is not scum-motivated
Prism claims BM

knows

it is not scum-motivated lurking and BM is scum for calling it out.

Questions which follow:

What is the town-motivation for lurking in the early stages of a newbie game?
Why didn't Prism vote for me? Instead sticking with a random vote over a claimed genuine suspicion.
If Prism had a good reason for not posting, and was unconcerned about having a wagon on them (as they claimed), why did they subsequently post? Seems that either the pressure had some bearing, or there wasn't a legitimate alignment-indicative reason for lurking in the first place.

[Battle Mage]

there wasn't a legitimate alignment-indicative reason for lurking in the first place.

You should perhaps consider this option a bit more heavily.

You know exactly why I am avoiding the thread and why I take issue with it, but I cannot explain beyond what I just said via the ruleset, and you know this and are exploiting it.

I think this is probably true. What I'm not sure of yet is whether this is alignment indicative or simply highlight's overaggression in BM's playstyle.

Eh I dunno if I was over-aggressive. Maybe I guess...I just wanted to get things rolling, get people posting and taking positions. I fundamentally disagree with you (and Prism) on there being town reasons for lurking - and even taking alignments aside, i don't think it was unreasonable to challenge someone on deliberately and conspicuously trying to avoid attention in this game. I was probably slightly more direct because they were an SE rather than a newbie.

All that said, I can sort of appreciate where you're coming from. I've been in a situation before where I was called out for lurking because I was active in most, but not all, games. And I was hampered by the rule about not referring to ongoing games in being able to defend myself. However, the difference that stands out to me is - when i was lurking in that game, it was because the game was producing like 50 pages a day and I simply couldn't keep up with all the games. I don't think that excuse holds in a game with 1-2 pages, and it takes like 20 seconds to just say something.

As I've said, it can be seen as a bit angle-shooty, so I'm gonna drop it and move on. I'll have my view, you can have yours, and others will form theirs.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: qspaces

[Battle Mage]

Eh I dunno if I was over-aggressive. Maybe I guess...I just wanted to get things rolling, get people posting and taking positions.

I fundamentally disagree with you (and Prism) on there being town reasons for lurking

- and even taking alignments aside, i don't think it was unreasonable to challenge someone on deliberately and conspicuously trying to avoid attention in this game. I was probably slightly more direct because they were an SE rather than a newbie.

All that said, I can sort of appreciate where you're coming from. I've been in a situation before where I was called out for lurking because I was active in most, but not all, games. And I was hampered by the rule about not referring to ongoing games in being able to defend myself. However, the difference that stands out to me is - when i was lurking in that game, it was because the game was producing like 50 pages a day and I simply couldn't keep up with all the games. I don't think that excuse holds in a game with 1-2 pages, and it takes like 20 seconds to just say something.

As I've said, it can be seen as a bit angle-shooty, so I'm gonna drop it and move on. I'll have my view, you can have yours, and others will form theirs.

That's the thing, it only seems like an angle-shoot because you consistently reinforce the bolded statement when we have both stated that we're not arguing that lurking is pro-town, rather alignment neutral.

That's an acceptable argument to make, although I tend to disagree, and more crucially

it's not an argument Prism explicitly made themselves

. Instead, Prism shaded me from the sidelines with an inference that I was scum because I had inside-knowledge of why he would be lurking here:

You wondered why I'm avoiding the thread. You know exactly why I am avoiding the thread

To be clear, I have no idea why you would be deliberately avoiding the thread as town - which is precisely my point.

Doubtful.

Beyond the above, which is currently one of the 2 main reasons I am suspicious of Prism-slot (the other being the hesitance to commit to a meaningful vote), we are arguing over a linguistic difference and a relatively trivial difference in opinion about whether lurking is AI (I maintain it very often is).

[Battle Mage]

I have vacation soon, so I have more time so again for not saying anything!
For now I don't really have amazing thoughts, but I can see why people think a mafia will most likely be silent but on the other hand I think mafia is smart enough of not staying totally silent. I do get why saying things now is pretty important because we don't have anything to really look at but I can see why town would be lurking in this game right now (as I kinda did woops) so I don't think being silent corresponds to being sus and I do see reasons to lurk as town as "Just saying something" is not that easy? (at least for me I guess.) Because I at least want to make a post semi-meaningful and I find it a bit hard to call out suspicious things (I don't want to hide and say oh Im a newbie so I'm not gonna post though). For now I could see why the posts of Prism were a bit aggressive-ish, so I agree with Battle Mage and Wu Wei there but hey Prism will be replaced right?

I agree that mafia should be smart enough not to be silent. What I think is more indicative of maf alignment is behavior that looks like it's not silent, but does not actually move the game forward (no useful inferences, meaningful votes (e.g. voting somebody who actually might be eliminated), intriguing questions).

I have vacation soon, so I have more time so again for not saying anything!
For now I don't really have amazing thoughts, but I can see why people think a mafia will most likely be silent but on the other hand I think mafia is smart enough of not staying totally silent. I do get why saying things now is pretty important because we don't have anything to really look at but I can see why town would be lurking in this game right now (as I kinda did woops) so I don't think being silent corresponds to being sus and I do see reasons to lurk as town as "Just saying something" is not that easy? (at least for me I guess.) Because I at least want to make a post semi-meaningful and I find it a bit hard to call out suspicious things (I don't want to hide and say oh Im a newbie so I'm not gonna post though). For now I could see why the posts of Prism were a bit aggressive-ish, so I agree with Battle Mage and Wu Wei there but hey Prism will be replaced right?

I agree that mafia should be smart enough not to be silent. What I think is more indicative of maf alignment is behavior that looks like it's not silent, but does not actually move the game forward (no useful inferences, meaningful votes (e.g. voting somebody who actually might be eliminated), intriguing questions).

I just scrolled through the game pages and I feel like Cook and Qspaces fit this description the best. Cook possibly even more so. I'm alright with either vote so I'll be voting Qspaces with a possible change to Cook if others see his behavior as potentially scummy. I know relying on others is not necessarily ideal, but I'm still getting the hang of what makes somebody mafia in this format.

VOTE: Qspaces

I should clarify: I voted Qspaces over Cook because others are voting them as well right now. I don't want to waste my vote on Cook if I'm the only one scumreading them.

this all resonates with me.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: qspaces

Any reason for that or just random voting?

I thought this was scummy:

Now replacing SiLentKilLeR, who has not picked up their role PM...

Well that's some votes wasted.

[Battle Mage]

some thoughts:

On balance, Wu Wei is probably the towniest player. I don't necessarily think he stands his ground as strongly as he did, as scum, especially after Prism repped out. Seems a relatively high-risk, low-reward play as scum anyway (just put them in the spotlight, no chance to buddy someone, not really protecting anyone).
Endlessdark is basically in the same place as me on suspects.
Enchant is quiet but that's more their town meta than scum meta.
Dew feels fairly genuine.
Cook is very quiet here, wouldn't be surprised if he was scum.
I'm very wary of the 2 other SE slots (Wheme and Lunar) - their interaction doesn't make a lot of sense and stands out.

So I'm gonna say 2 scum within: Wheme, Lunar, Cook and Qspaces

[Battle Mage]

yeah and Prism's interaction towards you was weird too. I guess you're right it's mainly been 1-way traffic though.

[Battle Mage]

I think im gonna vote Qspaces for now just to get the ball rolling as Im the only one that hasn't voted yet and some other people are going with this too. Im going to bed now so I may look more into it later but wanted to this before going to bed.
I think im gonna vote Qspaces for now just to get the ball rolling as Im the only one that hasn't voted yet and some other people are going with this too. Im going to bed now so I may look more into it later but wanted to this before going to bed.

VOTE: Qspaces

I'm skeptical of the casual tone here - you're really putting them at -1 "just to get the ball rolling"? Nothing to do with them being the biggest alternative wagon?

[Battle Mage]

Dew and Qspaces are unlikely partners, given Dew's vote there, bringing Qspaces to E-1.

Especially given that they're both approaching elimination. I feel like it'd be extremely unlikely that if you're (Dew in this case) approaching elimination you'd start bussing your partner (Qspaces) who is also getting votes.

Yes I agree, defo not partners.

I'm going to stick with my vote on Dew for now. They haven't done anything really but talk about how they don't know what to do, and they appeared 3 minutes after getting a 3rd vote on to push the competing wagon to E-1. We need more substantive contributions if we want to win as they game goes on.

Dew is new and I think in her situation it sounds right not to know what to do on day 1. This combined with your nitpicking of the double text in her post makes me suspect you're trying to push an easy elimination on her. I can't see double text being relevant and can easily be explained by her copying message in case she edits but then changes her mind and pastes back (or anything similar).

maybe but you'd be surprised how often stuff like that happens when copy-pasting from scum chats. I know one player who did the same mistake 3 times in 1 game as scum.

The fact that Dew didn't try to make up a reason for voting Qspaces, but instead simply said she doesn't know what to do and joined the bandwagon is not a maf behavior, I think. That is not to say it is helpful to town what she's doing, but doesn't sound disingenuous.

Hmm I'd have said they sounded pretty disingenuous when claiming that the vote was "just getting the ball rolling" etc.

Looking back to it that wasn't the best idea. First about the double message: yes I did copy my message as I was on mobile, and I didn't want to lose my message. I wanted to look how you could vote and searched the voting prompt, pasted my message and I didn't realize it was already there. I understand that it can be weird, but it is also interesting how easily people jump on that. Also looking back at my post my wording wasn't the best either with "Just getting the ball rolling" I just wanted to vote as well as I didn't do that yet. Qspaces had one of the biggest wagons and I could see why she would be pretty sus, so I thought "why not vote her just for  now" but I didn't realize voting now already has  significantly more impact than before especially with the E-1 so that wasn't the best idea and Isn't helping me or town at all. I also want to say that I didn't see Lunar Martians post before replying. I hope Qspaces comes online again so I can look more into that.

In recognition of all of this...no unvote?

VOTE: Dew

Not a lock but on balance I prefer this to Qspaces. I think that's E-1.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't think my take on Dew was bad, nor was I expecting the wagon to necessarily result in an elim.

I do agree SE players should be held to account for getting things wrong, but I'd be interested to see your evaluation of the other players on that wagon?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Enchant

my hero solve is Enchant-Cook - Enchant for the weird hammer and Cook for seeming a bit subdued.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then.

In my conversation with Lunar I was criticizing voting Dew. I didn't get to address your specific reasoning before she got hammered, but I laid out that foses on her were shallow in that sense that they were based on her making a newbie mistake.

Can you set out the aspects of my reasoning you didn't address? Looking back, I can't see there was anything from me which you didn't comment on at the time, so the above isn't accurate. Your opposition to the Dew-wagon was fairly low-key and relaxed, and the difference with your aggressive approach today is stark.

Spoiler:

maybe but you'd be surprised how often stuff like that happens when copy-pasting from scum chats. I know one player who did the same mistake 3 times in 1 game as scum.

Lol, I have no experience with such situations, didn't know that was a thing. I find it weird that somebody would copy paste from another chat.

Hmm I'd have said they sounded pretty disingenuous when claiming that the vote was "just getting the ball rolling" etc.

In recognition of all of this...no unvote?

Maybe I'm naive but Dew's behavior is still to me an indicator of newbieness more than alignment, I don't think they're an optimal elimination.

I do agree SE players should be held to account for getting things wrong, but I'd be interested to see your evaluation of the other players on that wagon?

I am primarily criticizing you because you are the oldest player registration-wise.

As I say, I'm fine with that criticism (although I'm not exactly famed for my amazing reads ), but being wrong doesn't make me scum. And my argument is you haven't commented on other players on that wagon - notably Enchant, who hammered for...why exactly? I'd be adopting a more balanced perspective which takes into account relative strength of reasoning for votes/timing of votes/wagonomics.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't think my take on Dew was bad, nor was I expecting the wagon to necessarily result in an elim.

How did you not expect the wagon to result in an elimination? You brought Dew to E-1:

VOTE: Dew

Not a lock but on balance I prefer this to Qspaces. I think that's E-1.

Dew was also at E-2 for 2 days before being eliminated.

We had like 4 days left? I would have at least expected someone to declare intent, and then a claim, before we decide on actually elimming. So I suppose what I'm saying is, I wouldn't necessarily have ended up on Dew, all else being equal (although at that time they were the scummiest player to me). I do get where you are/were coming from on the "they're just a newbie" defence, but it did seem more like newbie-scum than newbie-town, with the copy-paste thing, and the laissez-faire attitude to putting someone at -1, and then apologising but keeping them at -1. It was wrong, but I don't think it was a foolish elim.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Battle Mage

really dude? why?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Enchant

my hero solve is Enchant-Cook - Enchant for the weird hammer and Cook for seeming a bit subdued.

With Cook you probably right. Sadly you too suspect.


Alright, i will say it directly. For who i say "Don't put on E-1, unless you want them dead"? Of course not for you, not for people who placed vote and wait before someone get reason or get bored. I had both and did i, because with this level of apathy, you WILL lose and it's time to shake up and start think, not just sit before time ends or our glorious mayor point who to kill.

About Dew. I didn't expect him being Town at all, because of last post. I tried ask some questions but i was kinda pushed. Better chance to get mafja that suicide, i kinda learn that.


About you (not only BM, but whole wagon) though, how many days i give you to unvote? Or maybe half of players don't read game at all? I'm damn certanly, there is mafia on wagon, just need think how much, and really is this possible for 3 (or even 4 townies which is damn unlikely, but if yes, i will scream on you at the end) sharing this mindset.

Also.

If you didn't learn, don't put anyone on E-1 unless you want them dead.

Yes, i even bolded it.

Now i will read game. Again, you can't wait for just BM catching all mafia for you now for obvious reason, so too do something i dunno.

so just to be clear - you hammered early out of self-preservation? you had 1 vote on you? I'm sure I remember you lamenting quickhammers in a previous newbie game (albeit as scum). The only thing which gives me pause on you is the meta-angle.

On the wagonomics point, I'd guess 1 scum on-wagon, 1 scum off-wagon - I can buy the reasoning for the elim.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then.

In my conversation with Lunar I was criticizing voting Dew. I didn't get to address your specific reasoning before she got hammered, but I laid out that foses on her were shallow in that sense that they were based on her making a newbie mistake.

Can you set out the aspects of my reasoning you didn't address? Looking back, I can't see there was anything from me which you didn't comment on at the time, so the above isn't accurate. Your opposition to the Dew-wagon was fairly low-key and relaxed, and the difference with your aggressive approach today is stark.

Before Dew got eliminated, I didn't respond to your commentary on Dew.

You did - I literally quoted it in my previous post.

Spoiler:

maybe but you'd be surprised how often stuff like that happens when copy-pasting from scum chats. I know one player who did the same mistake 3 times in 1 game as scum.

Lol, I have no experience with such situations, didn't know that was a thing. I find it weird that somebody would copy paste from another chat.

Hmm I'd have said they sounded pretty disingenuous when claiming that the vote was "just getting the ball rolling" etc.

In recognition of all of this...no unvote?

Maybe I'm naive but Dew's behavior is still to me an indicator of newbieness more than alignment, I don't think they're an optimal elimination.

I do agree SE players should be held to account for getting things wrong, but I'd be interested to see your evaluation of the other players on that wagon?

I am primarily criticizing you because you are the oldest player registration-wise.

As I say, I'm fine with that criticism (although I'm not exactly famed for my amazing reads ), but being wrong doesn't make me scum. And my argument is you haven't commented on other players on that wagon - notably Enchant, who hammered for...why exactly? I'd be adopting a more balanced perspective which takes into account relative strength of reasoning for votes/timing of votes/wagonomics.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't think my take on Dew was bad, nor was I expecting the wagon to necessarily result in an elim.

How did you not expect the wagon to result in an elimination? You brought Dew to E-1:

VOTE: Dew

Not a lock but on balance I prefer this to Qspaces. I think that's E-1.

Dew was also at E-2 for 2 days before being eliminated.

We had like 4 days left? I would have at least expected someone to declare intent, and then a claim, before we decide on actually elimming. So I suppose what I'm saying is, I wouldn't necessarily have ended up on Dew, all else being equal (although at that time they were the scummiest player to me). I do get where you are/were coming from on the "they're just a newbie" defence, but it did seem more like newbie-scum than newbie-town, with the copy-paste thing, and the laissez-faire attitude to putting someone at -1, and then apologising but keeping them at -1. It was wrong, but I don't think it was a foolish elim.

Wrong read alone isn't the issue, my primary issue is that your reads are shallow, given your experience. Especially given that Dew was an easy target. I kinda feel the same way about you voting Enchant here. I think Cook is a much better vote. There doesn't seem to be any motivation in Cook's posts to find mafia.[/quote]

I don't think much of your read on me tbh - maybe fine in isolation, but you're just tunnelling me and ignoring other players, and the wider context of the game. You still haven't given any deep assessment of anybody else this dayphase, despite me asking twice - so I'm not taking your "shallow reads" dig to heart. I'd like to actually know more about what you think about Enchant for instance. I've been open and honest with my takes, so essentially your vote on me still boils down to "we mis-elimmed, BM was on the wagon and is experienced, so he must be scum". Which as I've said - happy to be held to account for being wrong, but there isn't really much I can say in response, other than it's pretty surface-level and I do think you can do better.

VOTE: Cook

It feels like there's a consensus for this, so let's give it a shot.

[Battle Mage]

Wait why are we voting Battle Mage?

My last 2 posts sort of lay out the reasoning, the summary being my perception of Battle Mage not genuinely trying to find mafia.

Enchant kind of Towntold by not joining the BM wagon. It seems to be BM and cook.

Why would Enchant have joined the BM wagon? There's no compelling reason for it (with respect to endlessdark who has given a reason - which amounts to me being experienced and on a mis-elim yesterday - which over my mafia career is likely NAI because longevity does not equate to aptitude).

This is pretty bad faith - your townread on Enchant assumes I'm scum, which I'm not. Sadly you're probably town and also not talking to me.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage is Mafia here.

Nope, I am in fact town, but you do you. I've mis-elimmed you enough times that I can take one back.

[Battle Mage]

I’ve quoted a few of Battle Mage’s posts and the ones I’ve quoted I see them as trying to solve so I’m not really sure what you are talking about with Battle Mage not trying to find mafia.

Battle Mage appearing as he's trying to find mafia is not the same as him genuinely doing it. Obviously mafia will try to appear as if they're scumhunting.

I think Cook is a much better vote. There doesn't seem to be any motivation in Cook's posts to find mafia.

Wait why are we voting Battle Mage?

My last 2 posts sort of lay out the reasoning, the summary being my perception of Battle Mage not genuinely trying to find mafia.

These contradict each other especially as you are voting Battle Mage

They don't. I scumread both Battle Mage and Cook. In my statement "I think Cook is a much better vote" is in comparison to Enchant, which is who Battle Mage voted.

...is this all you're going to say? disappointed dude... if you want to run me up today for 'not genuinely trying to find mafia', at least engage with me and answer my questions, or give some reads on other players.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE: Cook
I need to think about this some more. I am torn between Cook and BM.

enlessdark:

... I dunno. It depends how many expireince he have in mafia at all. Atleast, assuming first votes like "not partner" is actually not good and expected only from someone, who playing first time or so.

I think he is newbie-town, but he actually knows termins very good, while i still learning them, but. Pushing BM after this hammer is really indicative he is Townie. Why? Well, i would scream "Enchant+Endlessdark" if i would't be Enchant self. I see no motivation for him as Mafia to go fight with BM (Expirenced player), instead of supporting push on me, which is certanly easy. Of course, this is possible BM and him is just mafia members, and this push is just to confirm like they are not partners. BM would coach him in private, and this could explain his knowledge in termins, but low knowledge about game. I find this unlikely though, as this is too risky. I need think about it more.

I know the terminology because I've played a lot of mafia in real life and on chats. I am new to forum mafia, though.

Now onto my reads. Take with a grain of salt - I know none of your metas

Cook:

Analysis: If I understand correctly Cook is a new player; and simply may not understand the weight of importance a town member holds, leading to him not considering that just accepting an elimination as town is bad for us. I currently suspect he is town and will not vote for him.

Result: Lean-town

Your understanding of Cook is incorrect. Cook is a new, but good and capable player, who just completed a game with me where he played an influential role in town winning. Newbie 2052 if you're interested - the contrast between Cook-town there (active and fully immersed), and Cook here (low impact) is stark.

Battle Mage:

Analysis: By far the most active and participating player and the one I am finding the hardest to settle on an opinion of. On one hand I like the feel of his posts, and the fact he has given opinions and reads - because this helps to create connections that can be reviewed later.

On the other I do not like the push on Cook. I don’t know BM but as I understand it he is a veteran player and I find it somewhat odd that he would be voting on Cook.

Result: Neutral / lean-town

Now you understand my push on Cook, does that change your read on me?

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE: Cook
I need to think about this some more. I am torn between Cook and BM.

grateful if you can also take a skim of newbie 2052 and let me know what you think?

[Battle Mage]

Alright. First of all, hello! I'm going to admit it's a bit strange to be filling the body of another player - something I have never done before. I am not new to mafia as a game, but I am new to playing here on these forums. With that in mind - I have figured out most of the changes in terminology except I am uncertain on "townblock". Is this the same thing as "towncore" - a group of accepted and considered "confirmed" town?

I am compiling my own reads on everyone - but it is almost 1am and I have to be in bed; so I will return tomorrow with them.

Yes it is the same.

my definition is not quite the same. townblock is more of a functional arrangement where a group of players who generally consider each other town co-operate as a voting-block to offset the co-ordination ability of the mafia team. people in a townblock do not always consider each other "confirmed" town, and the existence of a voting block creates a new dynamic which is useful for sorting alignments. it works better in slightly bigger games and can be surprisingly impactful!

[Battle Mage]

I am on board with Enchant's play being scummy, BUT having played a couple games with them, this does feel much more reminiscent of their town-game than their scum-game. Unnecessarily salty and defensive. Head says scum, heart says town.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

to give me a chance to catch up

[Battle Mage]

BM, who do you think is best candidates for a town block right now, and, if so, who should you want to block on to?

the first part of that (maybe unintentionally) reads as "hey BM, who do you think is the other mason?" So, no comment.

[Battle Mage]

I would prefer to eliminate endless as I scum read them the most

Enchant, Cook, and BM are the players who have 2 or more foses on them, I suggest sticking to those players when voting.

this pinged me. 'Anyone but me' mindset from endlessdark.

On another topic -- is it normal for so many players to be replaced? It's hard to follow the game when half of the players have been replaced and you need to restart to the context in which you read them.

it's pretty unusual in a game of this pace, and yeah I agree it's not ideal.

[Battle Mage]

Good morning! This game caught my attention a couple days ago and I'm happy to get a chance to be in it. I'm not caught up but before I get into my normal post by post analysis, I would like to say that I support this Cook wagon and I believe Cook is scum. I won't vote yet for the sake of not ending the day too early but that is where my reads lie currently. I'll be back with more content heavy posts after work.

hi! sorry for mistakenly elimming you in our last game - won't happen again!

VOTE:

Cook

ie Monster

There can only be one.

...

I took a peek at the suggested game, and I can see what you are getting at BM. Are you suspecting Cook is trying to play off not caring about an elimination to buy town points then?

And Cook, what do you have to say about the argument BM is making regarding how quiet you have been in comparison to your previous game?

I don't know - it feels more like he's just given up, which doesn't really make sense from a game standpoint (scum in a good position). In my last newbie game scum did similar though and basically threw when they were the top 2 suspects, so maybe it's like Cook-Enchant or Cook-Endless? Or maybe that's what he wants us to think...

I took a peek at the suggested game, and I can see what you are getting at BM. Are you suspecting Cook is trying to play off not caring about an elimination to buy town points then?

And Cook, what do you have to say about the argument BM is making regarding how quiet you have been in comparison to your previous game?

I believe it's entirely a justified argument, however, I'd like to point out I was a Doc in that previous game, and therefore was informed slightly of the setup, had a use in actively fighting the scum team besides dayplay (which, I'd argue, is much more powerful of a motivator to play a game – having something that the other players don't), which is definitely not my strong suit, and also consequentially had a reason to play much more.

that is true.

VOTE: endlessdark
Endlessdark seem intimidating.

Out of all of the RVS posts, this one stuck out because the vote came with reasoning that just doesn't make sense to me but it could just be some joke that I didn't understand.

Anyone else on prism bandwagon?? Only need 2 more to depart!

This is quite rushed. It is page 2 and you are rushing an elimination and I find that to be a big problem.

there wasn't a legitimate alignment-indicative reason for lurking in the first place.

You should perhaps consider this option a bit more heavily.

You know exactly why I am avoiding the thread and why I take issue with it, but I cannot explain beyond what I just said via the ruleset, and you know this and are exploiting it.

I think this is probably true. What I'm not sure of yet is whether this is alignment indicative or simply highlight's overaggression in BM's playstyle.

not moving my random vote atm even though you're tempting.

I agree with BM that this is interesting though. Care to elaborate on the reluctance to move your vote Prism?

I don't like going too far into my predecessor and their posts' analysis but I think Wuwei and Battle Mage both have very townie responses to her. Battle Mage is quite confident she is scum over some fairly small reasons which I find comes from town more because scum are more likely to try to find stronger reasons. Wuwei has a very natural town thought process that flows with his thoughts.

VOTE: qspaces

i like this

I think I see a pattern in the posts that I am finding scummy. WhemeStar is catching my attention a lot.

Town: Battle Mage,
Wu Wei
Null: Qspaces
Scum: Whemestar

this is brilliant

[Battle Mage]

I took a peek at the suggested game, and I can see what you are getting at BM. Are you suspecting Cook is trying to play off not caring about an elimination to buy town points then?

And Cook, what do you have to say about the argument BM is making regarding how quiet you have been in comparison to your previous game?

I believe it's entirely a justified argument, however, I'd like to point out I was a Doc in that previous game, and therefore was informed slightly of the setup, had a use in actively fighting the scum team besides dayplay (which, I'd argue, is much more powerful of a motivator to play a game – having something that the other players don't), which is definitely not my strong suit, and also consequentially had a reason to play much more.

Not buying this. Doc might help motivate you, but the difference between the two games is too much. There was no effort this game at all from you to help town. Hell, your last vote was completely random.

eh, that's a valid argument too. Yeah I still think it's probably Cook on balance, partly because I don't want to lose to Cook-scum who didn't even try.

In other news, Amelie's analysis of endlessdark was V good and seemed to come from a town mindset.

[Battle Mage]

I would prefer to eliminate endless as I scum read them the most

Enchant, Cook, and BM are the players who have 2 or more foses on them, I suggest sticking to those players when voting.

this pinged me. 'Anyone but me' mindset from endlessdark.

I'd certainly prefer not to die.

There's a difference between normal wanting to stay alive and a mindset of not really caring who gets elimmed, as long as it isn't you. Scum are generally more survival-focussed (it's literally their wincon) than town.

[Battle Mage]

On a more serious note, do you think there's substantial suspicion of me at this point to warrant discussing my elimination? It's in the best interest of town not too diffuse attention too much, and especially now that we have 1 day left. At this point, I wouldn't say you're a candidate either, BM, and it's between Enchant and Cook.

Slow down Mr Defensive...I wasn't discussing your elimination, I was just giving my thoughts as I catch up. I said you scumpinged me once and I thought Amelie's observations on you had some merit - neither of which amounts to seriously considering you for an elim.

[Battle Mage]

Dew is also dead, because i hammered him. You probably should read game before thoughs.

lol this is town. enchant-scum is significantly more measured and cautious. And I don't think scum ever posts something as antagonistic as this when they are potentially on the chopping block.

[Battle Mage]

VT.

not much else you could claim really

ok fine I think we do Cook today, and look at likely partners tomorrow based on their approach to him (as there isn't much to go on from Cook to others).

VOTE: Cook

[Battle Mage]

what about my posting is worrisome?

[Battle Mage]

That might be an exaggeration but it feels like you have some hesitancy towards Cook and I do not understand why.

Yeah I think a little hesitancy is fair - I guess I didn't really get a scummy vibe from the way he just sort of, gave up and didn't fight at all. Like I said, it's explainable by either resignation (because him and his partner don't fancy their chances) or, less likely, complacency (he thinks his partner is so good they will win without him). Which I guess is the contrast I pointed out with Endlessdark. Endlessdark is extremely concerned with his own survival, Cook couldn't care less. Initially I also bought his point about being less motivated because he didn't have a PR, but Endlessdark was right to highlight the significant contrast between his play here and in newbie 2052 which suggest that isn't a strong enough explanation.

Nothing wrong with being prudent and taking more time to consider everything anyway.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: endlessdark

[Battle Mage]

excellent work, smooth as clockwork!

[Battle Mage]

GG all - was good fun, and nice to see a newbie game finished in 11 pages! Game, and town momentum in particular, was hurt a bit by the number of replacements, although everyone who came in did a good job. Obviously town hurt by masons outting unnecessarily on page 1/2. Thought it was going to be close even up to today, but the benefit of getting 2 consecutive days of ExLo, is that any town error is a scum-win - and shows the benefit of scum co-ordination. I figured I was probably eating the elim today but Enchant was in a good enough position to go on and win. Town reads overall were pretty good - you were all on to me yesterday! If Amelie was mason as we assumed, that "pretend i think whemestar is scum" act yesterday was very clever.

[Battle Mage]

I'm just gonna claim because I don't see you guys changing your mind -- I'm the other town mason.

this defo is not what i thought!

[Battle Mage]

Town could not have won this. Cook threw the game and even asked to be eliminated twice as town. He basically played against his win condition.

yeah we essentially streamrolled Dew on Day 1 and Cook gave himself up on Day 2. I'm honestly baffled at how easy everyone let Enchant off the hook for that Day 1 hammer - they didn't have to fight much at all. I can't remember the last time I saw a quickhammer that dubious looking get such little scrutiny.

[Battle Mage]

Friendly neighborhood SE votes friendly neighboorhood SE, more breaking news at 11.

VOTE: WhemeStar

we assumed this had to be the most obvious mason-crumb ever. Guess not! endlessdark you would've been my last pick for mason.

[Battle Mage]

If the game is over - am I allowed to chat? Or should I wait till the mod officially ends it?

i think you can chat

[Battle Mage]

Well then, this was fun! You absolutely picked the right kill target. I would absolutely have been after Enchant today =p and you tipped my radar with the posts at the end of D2 BM. But then, alas. I was dead.

yep you were a threat to us, and also you weren't a viable mis-elim. I was sloppy at the end of Day 2 - Cook got me a little excited

[Battle Mage]

I felt so sure... I’m sorry

Don't feel bad about it! I thought you did a real good job here as town (so much so I mis-elimmed you in another game because you didn't do the same there! for which, I'm sorry) - your analysis was great. Just needed to give yourself more thinking time and you would've got there. But I can understand the desire to take the initiative too - been there many many times myself.

[Battle Mage]

Yeah. When I did the look over, I was certain Enchant was scum. But I am new here, and not familiar with all of you, and let myself be swayed in favor of deferring to others knowledge of peoples’ play-styles since I had no framework for that. Oh well, lol

the use of meta here didn't really help town. Cook's meta re-ignited the pressure on him, and Enchant's meta gave me a reason to defend them.

[Battle Mage]

I was wrong about the other mason too. I thought it was Cook based on a comment he’d made about now having a useless PR — and even as he was eliminated I was still sure he was probably town. I should have stuck to my guns and not let a new environment make me doubt my ability to read, lol

actually thought there was a slim chance it was you, as wu wei defended the other mason hard early. but yep, that's a good lesson to take forward - trust your own judgement!