Large Normal 246: Game Over

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Hu Tao/Gamma crossvoting before makes sense in a TvS world btw, but with Gamma claiming investigative, any protectives that are not Hu Tao should probably protect Gamma because if Gamma is Town, HT likely scum and then HT doesn't (scum!doctor)/can't (fakeclaiming scum) protect Gamma in that situation.

Hu Tao if town should not reveal whether she protected Gamma come toMorrow if they are both alive, due to the Indecisive, take any attempt to force them to do so as pro-scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm

vt

lurking,

don't

hammer me

yet

for real though let him post any thoughts first, but appearing now of all times is kinda

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah that feels like someone told them to get in here, I think we have our lim, especially with no PR claim.

By any chance are you from a community where mafia usually have a discord chat?

I've had chatrooms for scum teams everywhere I've ever played, most of my history predates Discord though. Why?

Dunn thinks you summoned him

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't think andres parks his vote on an also-somewhat-afk buddy so if KK flips red there are probably better slots to investigate

[ssbm_Kyouko]

[youtube][/youtube]

I was just wondering how they would be summoned from a pt unless they were already on the site and probably following along

What's a pt?

What did Celeb soft claim? How did I miss that

private topic. getting a little obvious with the townslips bucko

[ssbm_Kyouko]

[ssbm_Kyouko]

KK, any scumreads, leans, pings, on anyone aside from Gamma?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

KK kinda feels like scum that's given up and doesn't want to out anything else to be used for associations to me, I'd wait maybe 10 minutes to see if he has any other reads before hammering

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Saw flips, dont have time to read much of anything else rn. At first I read that as though Black was a combined babysitter hider and was confused as to how she died.

I'm glad I read Gamma right outside of the mechs though

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Gamma and Hu Tao were unaligned. Gamma was also unaligned with Black btw but Black is dead so that's an irrelevant read. In any case I Hu Tao is my top townread right now.

I think townbinning Hu Tao for now because they're still alive after Gamma flipped not gunsmith/scum makes sense. I feel like now that Gamma is flipped there will actually be pressure to NK Hu Tao for their claim.

It feels overly risky for them both to have been scum fakeclaiming

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Since i have seen town!Tao lie about being doctor, i suppose she could be town.
I dont see what scum!Broccoli would gain from defending town!Tao - more likely he would support the easy lim. Defending Hu Tao makes sense only in case of both town or both scum. Both being scum is something to think about.

If they're both scum it would make the argument between Gamma and BQ2 on D1 theatre. Admittedly I cannot tell the difference between scum!Gamma doing scum theater and scum!Gamma faking righteousness toward town, but I read that a couple of times D1 and it didn't seem theatery to me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

You could be a scum role cop. You softed doc/bodyguard.

Why would you think scum have 2 goons in a complex setup?

Makes no sense to claim as town to do this.

Wdym by the red?

Also could you quote the soft please?

Makes no sense as a town role cop to claim vanilla result on me here when goon was flipped already in a complex setup

This is not correct - no reason to assume there arent more goons, especially if the goons are meant to give sort of false positives to weak TPRs

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Stopping there for noe

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Naerys it pains me to say this but I agree with Hu Tao that your read is rubbish.

Pedit: Gamma is a her btw.

Additionally, Elements you should probably unvote HT if you are town.

Yeah I should
UNVOTE:

Wow that was easy. I was wondering whether it's AI for Elements to be so easy to persuade, but luckily Kyoko is here so I don't have to do any meta research.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Maybe the bsit scum causes sitter to die was a variant when I saw that before?

Black targeted Gamma with Babysit
Someone killed Black
Black died, and as a result, Gamma also died because that's how Babysitter works

^Most likely imo. There are possibilities of vig (I think singleball means there can't be SK, or does that just mean there can't be more than one groupscum faction?) being involved, possible that Black hid behind Gamma and Gamma was killed by a vig, leading to Black dying as a result, while the scum kill was stopped somehow.

I think Hiding behind Gamma or Hu Tao does not make sense though, because they're like magnets for kills last Night, so probably Black babysitted Gamma

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Since i have seen town!Tao lie about being doctor, i suppose she could be town.
I dont see what scum!Broccoli would gain from defending town!Tao - more likely he would support the easy lim. Defending Hu Tao makes sense only in case of both town or both scum. Both being scum is something to think about.

They are still trying to confuse things by saying they protected Gamma when they didn't

. Where is the town motivation there?

I didn't see this happen, was I reading too fast?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

My plan originally was to investigate the millers. If I live to and through tonight I plan to do that. I won't go further on what my crumbs meant. They do have a purpose, but it's not beneficial to town to go into them right now.

This is such a waste, and I would be saying this even if I wasn't a claimed Miller.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh wait I understand. Black did the first one. Protected gamma and they both died.

I guess I misinterpreted this post?

Yeah, they mean this:

Oh wait I understand. Black did the first one. Black protected gamma and they both died.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm fine with Cele not explaining.

For now, same

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I got through #909. Through there, I have the game something like this:

Town
{Black, KawaiiKame}
Strong Lean Town
{Celebloki}
Lean Town
{TimmerRC, Dunnstral [Miller Claim], ‪Cat scratch fever, ‬Guillotina}
Slight Lean Town
{ssbm_Kyouko [Miller Claim], Broccoli Quest 2, Random Nurse, Naerys}
Uncertain
{Hu Tao}
Slight Lean Scum
{davesaz}
Lean Scum
{Elements, Keyleth}
Scum
{Gamma Emerald}

Spoiler: With Quotes

[Comments before end of D1]

217 - I can’t say I like the reasoning for the vote expressed here, but I don’t know that Scum openly admits to voting as a form of policy instead of just saying it was RVS. I know Celebloki is getting a lot of heat for this explanation from what I can tell, so I would just say that I don’t get SR the slot for this. I think if Scum had to explain the vote to draw the least amount of suspicion, they probably just say that it’s an RVS vote and that’s it. The extra explanation clearly isn’t angled at making themselves look good.
219 - Interestingly, I’m surprised to actually agree with this thought. It may not be entirely accurate. Still, I like the skepticism that underlies it.
285 - This may be the sort of question Scum asks to appear to be advancing the game. Or it could be genuine curiosity, not sure. If you’re asking me (and I know you’re not), there’s no definitive process that works. At the end of the day, Scum have to bullshit.
293 - I’m not a fan of this post. I would argue Kyouko didn’t seem “afraid”. They were simply trying to connect (yes, despite the vote). I don’t know if Kyouko’s Miller claim was “opportunistic” - I may have to revisit the context.
306 - I can’t say I understand this pivot. If you really believe Kyouko is trying to attack you early because they’re scared of your slot (I presume because you’re good at catching Scum), then why not keep up the pressure after they’ve collected some quick votes?
327 - I agree that Guillotina’s bursts of posts are probably +Towny. Nevertheless, I share Black’s “concern” about the switch to Celebloki there.
348 - Is this back and forth supposed to convince me that Random Nurse and Guillotina can’t be partnered?
384 - Certainly quite a bit of overlap with some of the reactions I have felt. Though the questions themselves are probably easy to fake from Scum, I’ll admit that the level of enthusiasm is probably difficult to sustain from Scum. Though that’s coming from the perspective of someone that doesn’t like playing Scum ever.
391 - I don’t think you can know this @Elements. If the pivot happened within 30 minutes, then a previous post shouldn’t have caused the switch. I would have found it more believable if Guillotina had simply said that they were

also

suspicious of Celebloki for the reasons explained.
402 - Black’s skepticism here in response to Elements claiming to not have a read of Guillotina is, in my mind, warranted.

[Reading After D1 has ended]
449 - This is far fetched. Not a particularly convincing argument from Guillotina.
468 - For reasons specified above, I don’t like this argument from Kyouko.
478 - Obviously Broccoli’s read of Gamma as Scum is negative points. To be totally fair, I don’t think I ever even had a chance to express a read there so I can understand why this opinion might be annoying.
482 - Since this doesn’t read like distancing to me, Celebloki is more often than not Town (assuming this keeps up).
484 - Since we know this is a Scum motivated wagon, these votes from Elements and Broccoli are not positives. Do I think the whole Scum Team jumped on a slot all at the same time? No.
518 - Now this is interesting. Gamma actively arguing against a vote for Guillotina in this way is either a pocket or a Partner. Will have to decide which one.
526 - I don’t know what to make of this interaction between Broccoli and Gamma. Is it too blatant for Partners?
529 - Meh. Ruling out Kyouko and Guillotina over 18 just doesn’t make any sense to me. Dunnstral and Elements could certainly be partnered. If anything, 28 is some evidence in favor of the idea that perhaps Dunn and

Gamma

are not partnered. And the way Gamma shaded Elements is clearly nothing that Scum aren’t capable of doing. This post isn’t particularly impressive.
The interaction between Gamma and Random Nurse I will admit didn’t strike me as Partners. So I would argue there’s some positives there.
536 - This probably just clears CSF for now.
546 - I do agree that Guillotina and Gamma are probably not partnered given 329. I do think that Black’s argument against Guillotina was valid, but I’m having a hard time simply ignoring the more direct interactions with Gamma.
549 - Probably Town indicative for Dunnstral (the attack on Gamma).
563 - Not great in a vacuum. Funny enough, Keyleth SR’ing one of the most widely TR’ed slots in the game is a positive for me.
565 - This certainly confirms the observation above. Also, this is a positive for Naerys - they’re reaching out to a slot that’s +Town in my book to defend another Town that’s being (wrongly) suspected.
567 - If this ended up with a vote, perhaps Broccoli and Gamma are not really partnered.
569 - I don’t know if Gamma as Scum reacts to a Partner’s suspicion this way, but it’s very convincing distancing.
581 - Then again, this feels like a bad vote. Having said that, Gamma trying to move Guillotina from Naerys to Celebloki (not directly, of course) in 582 has to be considered as a subtle defense.
592 - I’m thinking this post from davesaz is bad. I would argue it’s clearly shading a Towny, but it’s also not particularly strong. Just attacking the strength of the read.
595 - All this analysis, only to vote Town. That’s a shame. I remain in disagreement that Gamma flipping Scum spews Elements Town.
602 - This also doesn’t feel like distancing. Considering it’s a “spicy take” from Scum, I can’t imagine it’s accurate. 625 also means that the take is followed with an actual vote, which I would argue is a decent indication of it not being SvS. Also, I don’t think it’s particularly common to accuse a Partner of “bullying”.
603 - I had a good laugh at this. Timmer is again, probably just Town.

As a side note, this game feels very dense. It’s taking me a long time to parse through each page.

626 - Uh oh. Not good from Keyleth.
627 - Yeah, I can’t currently conclude that Broccoli and Gamma are trying to distance here. The use of the word “bullying” and Broccoli’s clear negative reaction to that are pretty Town indicative to me.
639 - Interesting line here from Guillotina.
640 - Now this I would actually vote. davesaz is doing the classic I see my Partner is struggling with their push, so I will argue they’re both Town in a way to protect their position.
648, 665 - We can certainly dispense with the notion that Elements and Gamma can’t be partnered.
658 - Since this is real pressure, Celebloki is probably never Scum here.
674 - It’s going to be hard to trust Kyouko in light of the set of posts culminating here.
691 - There’s something shady about this post. Arguing that your own behavior is +Town because you’re helping de-obfuscate is quite questionable.
692 - @Kyouko, I read Dunn’s post as defending Kawaii from Gamma. Now of course it doesn’t matter. Kawaii was Town, and I agree upon reading more closely that Dunn wasn’t doing that, but instead was reacting to Elements. I think there’s other reasons to believe that Dunnstral is Town in any case.
The point on Kawaii and Timmer was a bit more nuanced, I would argue. TImmerRC seemed confused like you said, and somewhat outraged, that Hu Tao had claimed VT. Kawaii then said “it’s definitely weird” which is another way of saying “it’s Scummy”, which I didn’t agree with (I don’t think Hu Tao is Scummy for claiming VT so early). At the time, I felt the way Kawaii approached the situation was Scummy. I was wrong, obviously.
696 - Though I have to read through the collection of posts here again, the case constructed by Kyouko of Celebloki is probably flawed, and should be scrutinized.
711 - This is Keyleth defending Scum and one of my biggest SRs so I can’t say I think this is great.
715 - I can’t view piling onto Celebloki here as a positive (from davesaz).
723 - I think Kyouko arguing this deep in the game that the reasoning behind an RVS vote is sufficient to justify a large wagon on a player is just a bad look. It may not be coming from Scum, admittedly. As in, why would Scum spend so much time making themselves look tunneled with the primary reason being an RVS vote? But at the time, it was the wagon with the most votes on. So that’s something to consider.
728 - I think voting Elements here is justified.
756 - If I’m being objective, I would think this is a positive from Guillotina. And also, I think Broccoli criticizing the focus on the RVS vote in 755 is a tad positive, but not to the same extent since they found a way to maintain their vote regardless. Now, Celebloki would have to be confirmed Town, but shifting away there I would argue is +Town.
766 - I would argue Dunnstral probably has the game somewhat upside down from reading this (up to that point), but I’m not thinking that’s Scummy.
783 - I would argue this is Scummy from Keyleth.
784 - This reads like a pocketing attempt to me. TR’ing the strategy put forth by Broccoli, I would argue, is being done because Broccoli TR’ed Gamma pretty strongly. My point being that I am not of the mindset that Gamma and Broccoli are partners even if Broccoli seems to have consistently defended Gamma throughout.
817 - Would like to highlight this post from davesaz. Not a good look.
822 - From my perspective, this pool for an execution is problematic since I TR all of these slots. Gotta say - definitively calling Broccoli anything this game is going to be tough (from what I’ve observed so far).
833 - This is the sort of subtle defense of a Partner I would expect to see (davesaz and Gamma, in this case).
848 - I’ll just quickly give my thoughts on Town blocks but I don’t expect to get much of a reaction to it. Town blocks are a necessary evil. Setting up a POE is key to putting Scum in a corner. I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Town blocks should be trusted forever if set up D1 (and Broccoli clearly would have lost the game that way if it wasn’t for Black’s excellent use of their role), but I don’t like these posts arguing against their use. In my experience, they can be extremely effective tools. Having said that, I understand Celebloki’s skepticism. I just think it’s misplaced.
860, 861, 863 - Hm. I started reading this sequence as potentially partners, but the fact that Gamma was completely willing to apply pressure here with a vote deflates that argument to a large extent.
867 - The AtE from Naerys is real.
873 - This is too harsh for partners (though there’s always a chance it’s deception). I’m thinking davesaz and Hu Tao are not partnered as Scum.
909 - I have a couple of broad thoughts. Firstly, Kyouko reevaluating like this is Towny. There’s a couple of things that I have picked up from Naerys that make me think the slot is maybe Town (for example, the AtE in #867). I also think that Kyouko is trying to figure out Naerys’ alignment with nuance, and it doesn’t read like fake reasoning to me. The analysis whether Naerys was being waffly with the points about the millers seems solid. I don’t think the underlying points are super strong per se, but I think it’s a bit too nuanced for Scum.

Do you have Black, KK, and Gamma as Town and Scum because they're all 3 flipped already or are you saying those are your reads on them as of 909?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah and the second I explain what I was doing I'll get flamed for revealing a potential town PR. It's better that I have the heat right now.

The only thing further I'll say is that I am not a protective, but I believe there is one. This is why I didn't believe Hu Tao so strongly yesterday and why I decided to look into it over night. I was asking about the possibility of two because I became concerned that I was misguided in thinking that there couldn't be two.

ok I changed my mind, if you're Informed you need to share toDay what you're informed of

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yeah I might as well claim since it's so implied ay this point. I did soft a PR yesterday when I said:

If it saves us time since we are approaching Deadline, I can go ahead and claim now before we waste time on a wagon on me.

At the time it seemed like I was about to get wagoned and we were getting close to deadline. I didn't want to waste time wagoning me into a claim, then have it dismantle and turn into a panic situation before deadline.

I'm a Town Role Cop. My original plans were to investigate Dunn or Kyouko and confirm their miller status. After Hu Tao's claim, I debated real hard over night on whether I should still check one of the millers or her. I ended up going with Hu Tao and got "Vanilla" back. Someone else dropped crumbs that apparently only I saw that makes me think there are other protectives.

... In the future you should probably check the person that crumbed in this scenario. Scum will sometimes leave fake crumbs for a future fakeclaim

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Since i have seen town!Tao lie about being doctor, i suppose she could be town.
I dont see what scum!Broccoli would gain from defending town!Tao - more likely he would support the easy lim. Defending Hu Tao makes sense only in case of both town or both scum. Both being scum is something to think about.

Havent finished my thoughts here, lol. Sent it by mistake.
Anyway, while faking doctor is something Hu Tao did as town, i think we need to look at her behavior since beginning. First she claims vanilla, then when she gets pushed she claims doctor. At the very best she feels untrustworthy, at the worst these are scummy moves. She could be doing it bcz she knows there are players who have seen her faking doctor as town, so she counts on that those will TR her.
Conclusion: flipping Hu gives us decent info. It solves potential Hu+Broccoli+Gamma buddies.
VOTE: Hu Tao

Even though she wants me dead, I still don't think Kyouko's the play today.

This might seem completely out of left field, but I am just pondering scenario's.

In a game this size, and considering Hu Tao's claim of Complex Indecisive Doctor, is a second town protective role likely balance-wise or would that be too town sided?

I think i was hasty in believing Celebloki.
UNVOTE: Hu tao

I forgot about the Miller claims. So town might have a role cop. Why cele would waste it on me, not sure.

maybe bcz u went from vanilla claim to doc claim. That does not make you the most trustworthy person around here.

I do agree it looks weird on paper but Gamma was trying to send Hu Tao over! Do you think Gamma was just trying to damn a partner over someone like Kyouko or myself? I guess the main question is how many of the main wagons do we believe were on a wolf between Hu Tao, Kyouko, and myself. We already know the other two were one town and one wolf. Oh this is fun!

If Gamma thought that Hu wont get elim, it could be possible. But yeah, thats very unlikely. Evidence points to Hu being town.Still being wary of her, though.

Lastly I think Gob lied about their reason for replacing out being that they were in too many games. Point being they joined a new game right after replacing out of this one and have posted nearly a hundred times on the site since then.

VOTE: Dunnstral
Gobs reason is his own and this post is really bad.

Naerys, understand that if Hu Tao flips Scum I will also be suspecting you because it could be seen as you trying to shift my focus away from HT and onto Celebloki.

If you're Town, understand this possibility. If you're Scum understand that I will eventually catch you.

I am not trying to shift anything. I just dont know whom to trust.

Hu Tao vs Celebloki could contain a scum.
Hu Tao looks much worse, that slot is untrustworthy. Starting with her is less risky than limming potential useful town PR but also her flip gets plenty of useful info.
I wanted to go this way but allowed Broccoli and Hu to make me hesitate.
Out of the 3 i feel like Hu has the best chance of rolling scum.

VOTE: Hu Tao

You made this post and I wonder how you could reply to this without realizing Hu Tao was a Doctor claim:

Celebloki claimed role cop and claimed that Hu is Vanilla. Pay attention, please.
This could be scum disconnected from game. I got my eyes on you.

I just see disconnect and no real train of thought here. Just bouncing from one to the next. First I was scum. Then town. Then for some reasons Cele and me contain one scum.

Naerys was pretty hard-set on me being scum yesterDay and I think after Gamma flipped scum, Naerys realized my read on Gamma was not a performance and so she's now in a reevaluation state, so I don't think this is scum-indicative. I see what you see though.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I see Hu Tao was E-2 as of last night, could we not rush this Day please?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I am claiming role cop, not any other kind of cop. It returns whatever the slots role is, but I don't get alignment. If the slot is VT, Goon, whatever,

I'm supposed to get something to indicate it's a generic role so I don't get alignment. For Hu Tao I got Vanilla.

This could mean VT, Goon, SK, whatever the basic role for a faction is.

I was excited when the game started and we had 2 Miller claims, because if I check one and get Miller, that's pretty set what it means.

Last thing I'll mention for now because I'm at work and it's getting a bit busy, but if I seem to be fixated on Celeb's claims the bolded part in the quote is part of it. That just reads like someone read the wiki and tried explaining a fake claim from that, and not someone checking their role PM.

From the wiki: "Vanilla players have role names that vary by faction; a Role Cop scanning these will get "Vanilla" as the response, again anonymising the win condition. Thus, a Mafia Goon or a Serial Killer should give the same result as a Vanilla Townie (unless they have extra abilities). "

they even mention all three examples from the wiki, VT, Goon, SK.

So for the moment, I do not trust Celeb at all. Following my gut.

This could also just all be paraphrased from his role PM if he is really a rolecop

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Uh, I guess I should ask is Vanilla townie different from townie?

No it's not, they're different words for the same thing. Vanilla just means unmodified - no roles whatseover. Both a Rolecop and a Vanilla Cop would get a result of "Vanilla" investigating a goon, townie, serial killer, werewolf, cultist, etc.

So I'm not sure how Dunnstral got confused between Rolecop and Vanilla Cop given Celebloki's claim, as both return Vanilla when targeting a Vanilla

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Just for everyone’s benefit, I checked the flips, and then in my comments used that information to clarify my positions. I used the labels {Scum} and {Town} simply to track information that’s confirmed. Anything that has a “Lean” ahead of it is my perception of a slot.

This is what I thought, but wanted to know if you were trying to pass it off as reads

[ssbm_Kyouko]

In any event, I haven’t read why Hu Tao is getting pushed today for some claim, but that’s a really easy way to lose the game (focusing on claims versus play).

Hu Tao claimed VT in like post 14 or something. Then way way later on, close to deadline, when they were getting close to eliminated, they claimed Complex Indecisive Doctor.

Gamma

tried to imply the Doctor claim could come from scum by claiming Gunsmith, a role that would be able to clear Millers but would get a false positive on a Scum Doctor.

I think it's pretty clear from what Gamma did that Hu Tao is town. This did not become clear until morning when Gamma flipped, so it's not an egregious scumclaim for Celebloki to have checked Hu Tao, but I really wish he had used his power some other way.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

In any event, I haven’t read why Hu Tao is getting pushed today for some claim, but that’s a really easy way to lose the game (focusing on claims versus play).

Hu Tao claimed VT in like post 14 or something. Then way way later on, close to deadline, when they were getting close to eliminated, they claimed Complex Indecisive Doctor.

Gamma

tried to imply the Doctor claim could come from scum by claiming Gunsmith, a role that would be able to clear Millers but would get a false positive on a Scum Doctor.

I think it's pretty clear from what Gamma did that Hu Tao is town. This did not become clear until morning when Gamma flipped, so it's not an egregious scumclaim for Celebloki to have checked Hu Tao, but I really wish he had used his power some other way.

(And Celebloki Rolecopped Hu Tao, he says they are Vanilla, which is where Hu Tao's "lying" comes into play)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Celebloki is probably town. Hu Tao is almost certainly town. The only reason Gamma would, in her doomed moment, try to counterwagon onto a buddy (scum!HT), would be if Gamma herself had a scum PR and Hu Tao was a goon, or if Hu Tao was the strong PR and Gamma thought the wagon would not go through.

We know neither of these are the case because Gamma is a flipped Goon and we have Celebloki saying Hu Tao is vanilla, so unless you think Gamma, Hu Tao, and Celebloki are all scum together, you should not be voting Hu Tao.

If anyone does think that I'd like to know why they think HT and Celebloki are scum individually.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

In any event, I haven’t read why Hu Tao is getting pushed today for some claim, but that’s a really easy way to lose the game (focusing on claims versus play).

Hu Tao claimed VT in like post 14 or something. Then way way later on, close to deadline, when they were getting close to eliminated, they claimed Complex Indecisive Doctor.

Gamma

tried to imply the Doctor claim could come from scum by claiming Gunsmith, a role that would be able to clear Millers but would get a false positive on a Scum Doctor.

I think it's pretty clear from what Gamma did that Hu Tao is town. This did not become clear until morning when Gamma flipped, so it's not an egregious scumclaim for Celebloki to have checked Hu Tao, but I really wish he had used his power some other way.

Celebloki is so likely Town that this path is not worth pursuing. To the extent you want to dig into the Hu Tao wagon, that may be worth doing.

I'm not saying we should be digging into Celebloki, I agree he's likely town. I think there are probably scum on Hu Tao's wagon already, maybe even a couple of them, hoping to capitalize on Celebloki's result and rush us into eliminating spewed town before we have our heads on straight.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@Guillotina

Spoiler: quoted a large post

This

Summary

Still pretending I'm an spectator where Guillotina is not me.

Not mafia/mafia

Hu/Guillo
Random Nurse/Guillo
Gamma/Guillo
Timmer/Guillo
Celebloki/Guillo
Black/Guillo
Kawaii/Guillo
Kyo/Guillo
Naerys/Guillo
Kyo/Kawaii
Dunn/Elements
Dave/Elements
Black/Elements
Gamma/Elements
Gamma/Random Nurse
Hu Tao/Timmer

What does this mean?

In a world where my pre-flip associations are 100% accurate (they've never been 100% accurate before, but really close they have).

Guillo

is unaligned with 9 players
Element is unaligned with with 4 Players
Gamma is unaligned 2 Players

This means that if Guillo was scum in this game, He spewed half the game town on Day 1 alone, and it would have been really easy to pinpoint who his teammates were, from the remaining players. Too bad Guillo is town, though.

This also means that if any of those 9 are scum, Guillo is spewed town from them
Counterpoint to that would be, Guillo did some premium distancing, but I'm hopeful that if any of them flip scum, Guillo would have helped town to prove his worth and loyalty besides this spew.

Elements

flipping scum would spew Dunn, Dave, Black and Gamma town.

Gamma

flipping scum would hard spew Elements and Random Nurse town.

Timmer

flipping scum would clear

Hu

and Vice versa.

Conclusion

Guillo being unaligned with 9 players out of 16 makes him thread spew town or the best infoyeet of 2023 if the majority of players here suspect him that much.

Elements would clear a whooping total of 4 players town, so if these two were scum together, the game would be pretty much on auto mode.

I can confirm that Guillo is not scum, so we are not living in a perfect world where town auto this shit.

Hopefully this injects my thoughts and process in the thread and I have helped you determine whether I deserve the sussuspicion I've gotten so far or not, as well as some insights about the interactions between some of the players.
If you have questions or concerns about this post or my previous posts, let me know.
Hopefully when I come back I'll have more info to analyze, but for now, good night.

VOTE: Celebloki

This

I'm at page 11

Gamma Emerald - lean scum

Spoiler:

I claim miller

Same

jfc

Strange reaction

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

haven’t felt a need to move it
VOTE: KawaiiKame
They pinged me somewhat with how they unvoted kyouko, not strongly though

I feel like forgetting your vote is +scum and this reads a bit hedge-y

Random Nurse
Celebloki
Naerys-

For now my first impressions are that dave and both millers could be town.
Still too far from finding a scum, but its a start.

Was it just for the question he asked or was there more to it?

davesaz
Hu Tao - town

Spoiler: I townread all of these quotes

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

So scum will not target me and I can last till end game. I believe in myself to find scum as long as I'm alive long enough. Now I just need to be towny enough to not be voted out. I've eliminated half of the work.

I think Hu Tao was just joking with the VT claim

Nope. I'm VT

Timmer feels town so far

The "I'm terrible at D1" feels more like a townie trying to explain why he doesn't have many reads as opposed to Mafia worried about their optics

They seem curious but scum can also be curious so I'm not giving them that easy of a town read so far.

Elements is a champion baffler for sure.

I'm not inclined to vote for the millers. I think I agree with Gamma's take.

Not sure why but this post gives me scum pings. I wish I could tell you why

I belive Dunn and ssbm's claim. Unless the small chance they are scum together or scum informed of miller's in this game. Either way, I wouldn't want them today at the very least. If there are actual millers, there is likely a way to confirm that somehow regardless.

Broccoli Quest 2
Guillotina
Cat Scratch Fever
Keyleth
Dunnstral - I was inclined to believe the miller claim out of the gate but kind of hate his posting (sorry). I dunno
KawaiiKame - town
ssbm_Kyouko - town
TimmerRC - early posts spoilered below kinda pinged scum but then 111 was good

Spoiler:

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

It's been awhile, remind me why voting millers is the best option?

Elements - town for having zero filter and just livetweeting every thought she has into the void
Andresvmb
Black

Your read on me sucks ass
viewtopic.php?t=91760
Read that and try telling me my reaction to two miller claims happening doesn’t make sense!
As for my vote, I didn’t forget, I just hadn’t been strongly pinged by anything by that time

And Kyouko's meta case on Gamma

Are what I would outline as hard spew from Gamma.

So to summarize, in my opinion, besides myself, these are the players that completely look unaligned from Gamma.

Elements
Random Nurse
Cat person slot
Kyouko

When you made 595 did you have quotes to support Gamma/Guillo, RN/Gamma, and Elements/Gamma all not being scum together? I think reading 569 that excluding CSF/gob/Roden slot as a Gamma partner maybe makes sense, so if you had quotes for the others in notes or in a previous post could you share?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Black was killed for being obvtown

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Spoiler: quote collection

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

This seems a bit overly defensive. In a weird way, I could see this be teammate talk. But not too strong of a read right now

!!!!!

Calling it. I was right on this.

VOTE: Elements

Let's listen to me today

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

This seems a bit overly defensive. In a weird way, I could see this be teammate talk. But not too strong of a read right now

!!!!!

Calling it. I was right on this.

VOTE: Elements

Let's listen to me today

k

VOTE: Elements

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Since i have seen town!Tao lie about being doctor, i suppose she could be town.
I dont see what scum!Broccoli would gain from defending town!Tao - more likely he would support the easy lim. Defending Hu Tao makes sense only in case of both town or both scum. Both being scum is something to think about.

Havent finished my thoughts here, lol. Sent it by mistake.
Anyway, while faking doctor is something Hu Tao did as town, i think we need to look at her behavior since beginning. First she claims vanilla, then when she gets pushed she claims doctor. At the very best she feels untrustworthy, at the worst these are scummy moves. She could be doing it bcz she knows there are players who have seen her faking doctor as town, so she counts on that those will TR her.
Conclusion: flipping Hu gives us decent info. It solves potential Hu+Broccoli+Gamma buddies.
VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

Naerys it pains me to say this but I agree with Hu Tao that your read is rubbish.

Pedit: Gamma is a her btw.

Additionally, Elements you should probably unvote HT if you are town.

Yeah I should
UNVOTE:

Even though she wants me dead, I still don't think Kyouko's the play today.

This might seem completely out of left field, but I am just pondering scenario's.

In a game this size, and considering Hu Tao's claim of Complex Indecisive Doctor, is a second town protective role likely balance-wise or would that be too town sided?

I think i was hasty in believing Celebloki.
UNVOTE: Hu tao

VOTE: Elements

Yeah, if two of my big townreads are on this I will offer my support!

I’m in the middle of a deep dive of D1 so I’ll return with all my thoughts once I’ve fully caught up, which may take a few hours.

In the mean time, VOTE: Elements.

So Hu lied about their claim

but it's cool because they are obv-town, Dunn can't understand Black's role and how it resulted in Gamma's death, Celeb soft-suggested a protective role and apparently crumbed some clues but now says they are an investigator and yet we are believing them as well even though they will explain itall tomorrow, does that sum things up?

Was there a hard-claim on this?

If so I DO want this slot resolved NOW.

At the beginning Hu claimed vanilla, later after being pushed claimed doctor, its somewhere in her iso. I would find it, but i need to go to work

If this is the case then I'd like to see this slot flip Day 2.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Hu Tao vs Celebloki could contain a scum.
Hu Tao looks much worse, that slot is untrustworthy. Starting with her is less risky than limming potential useful town PR but also her flip gets plenty of useful info.
I wanted to go this way but allowed Broccoli and Hu to make me hesitate.
Out of the 3 i feel like Hu has the best chance of rolling scum.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

Ok Ive caught up, now time to back read for Gamma's spew.

I see Hu Tao was E-2 as of last night, could we not rush this Day please?

Dont have time to review these now but dont want to have to gather them again. I want to look at the votes from toDay.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Feels notable and possibly +town that Elements was on Hu Tao early, left quickly, and hasn't been on their wagon since given that Elements is the second-biggest wagon of the Day

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dave gob keyleth timmer elements andres.

I think is where I want to be today. Black seemed to be a proponent of leaving Hu Tao alive, maybe this is part of why she was killed.

Celebloki is off the list today because I can see him maybe making a poor targeting decision as town. I liked a point someone brought up about rolecopping the millers. Something like "that's the easiest way to let scum get away with a fake claim". I do think that town!Hu Tao is exactly who a scum!Rolecop would target and for that reason I dont want him to have the easy out of confirming miller claims

I also have not examined Andres' post where he has a lot of post numbers with notes in a spoiler. It could be upon reading that closely I don't want to lim him toDay.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Roden now I guess, not gob. I was looking at my previous POE when I made that post

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Quoting 2044 without quote tags so my commentary doesn't appear inside a quote tag, but I'm commenting on these votes now.

Spoiler: quote collection

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

This seems a bit overly defensive. In a weird way, I could see this be teammate talk. But not too strong of a read right now

!!!!!

Calling it. I was right on this.

VOTE: Elements

Let's listen to me today

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

This seems a bit overly defensive. In a weird way, I could see this be teammate talk. But not too strong of a read right now

!!!!!

Calling it. I was right on this.

VOTE: Elements

Let's listen to me today

k

VOTE: Elements

I have no problem with these first two votes, I think both these players are pretty likely town here and I'm not pinged by either of these votes.

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

This upon rereading feels a little "flat" compared to how it should feel? town!Celebloki is supposed to think he has a mechanical guilty here, and this doesn't read like a guilty should to me. There's no excitement whatsoever.

Since i have seen town!Tao lie about being doctor, i suppose she could be town.
I dont see what scum!Broccoli would gain from defending town!Tao - more likely he would support the easy lim. Defending Hu Tao makes sense only in case of both town or both scum. Both being scum is something to think about.

Havent finished my thoughts here, lol. Sent it by mistake.
Anyway, while faking doctor is something Hu Tao did as town, i think we need to look at her behavior since beginning. First she claims vanilla, then when she gets pushed she claims doctor. At the very best she feels untrustworthy, at the worst these are scummy moves. She could be doing it bcz she knows there are players who have seen her faking doctor as town, so she counts on that those will TR her.
Conclusion: flipping Hu gives us decent info. It solves potential Hu+Broccoli+Gamma buddies.
VOTE: Hu Tao

I don't really love this reasoning - I think it's already pretty clear from yesterDay that Broccoli and Gamma are not partnered, but it's early in the Day and I don't think many people had re-read for associations yet. I'm giving this vote the benefit of my existing TR on Naerys and am looking elsewhere.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Once again this is NAI, but we are in D2 now and I'm starting to feel like Elements is maybe hiding behind their posting style.

Naerys it pains me to say this but I agree with Hu Tao that your read is rubbish.

Pedit: Gamma is a her btw.

Additionally, Elements you should probably unvote HT if you are town.

Yeah I should
UNVOTE:

I think if Elements had a scum motivation to be voting Hu Tao though that maybe they hold on a little harder than this? I believe I already noted they never go back to voting HT so tentatively I'm not seeing scum motivation. Hoping to see Elements step up a little more toDay though.

Even though she wants me dead, I still don't think Kyouko's the play today.

This might seem completely out of left field, but I am just pondering scenario's.

In a game this size, and considering Hu Tao's claim of Complex Indecisive Doctor, is a second town protective role likely balance-wise or would that be too town sided?

I think i was hasty in believing Celebloki.
UNVOTE: Hu tao

This is again, a reasonable unvote. I didn't see scum motivation in getting onto the wagon and I don't see this as scum getting off when momentum slows down either

VOTE: Elements

Yeah, if two of my big townreads are on this I will offer my support!

Looking just at this vote I thought Keyleth ignored the guilty on Hu Tao but actually she just refutes it in 1778 saying that from the Gamma flip, HT is pretty likely town, same for Guillo and Celebloki. She attributes the reasoning to their votes on the Gamma flash wagon, so I'll want to look at Celebloki's later and see if I can see what Keyleth saw. I kinda like this because I think scum's plan coming in to toDay was to push Hu Tao (I think this might be the main reason Black was killed) and if Keyleth were scum I don't think she needs to put down her vote on a Hu Tao counterwagon. She barely voted at all yesterDay. The fact she barely voted yesterDay could indicate that as scum, this vote is meant to go against what the rest of the team is doing. Black did think Keyleth and I were scum together, and Gamma sheeped that reasoning. I think Gamma did the same in OMB - some towny, Smoke and Mirrors I believe, thought I was scum with one of Gamma's partners, Something_Smart I think it was. Gamma was like "yeah they could be scum together" and voted me. I think Gamma's idea in that scenario is that she can angle to lim me before her partner and when I flip town she can renege on SRing her partner, while at the same time if her scumpartner is limmed first, she can angle to mislim me afterward.

Overall I like Keyleth's vote here but it gives me actual deepwolf vibes and I'm unwilling to clear her from toDay's pool off that.

I’m in the middle of a deep dive of D1 so I’ll return with all my thoughts once I’ve fully caught up, which may take a few hours.

In the mean time, VOTE: Elements.

I'm not sure why Andres votes here, I'd have to assume he is either sheeping TRs or is sheeping Hu Tao's call that Gamma and Elements are partnered. Reminder to ask Andres in a separate post

So Hu lied about their claim

but it's cool because they are obv-town, Dunn can't understand Black's role and how it resulted in Gamma's death, Celeb soft-suggested a protective role and apparently crumbed some clues but now says they are an investigator and yet we are believing them as well even though they will explain itall tomorrow, does that sum things up?

Was there a hard-claim on this?

If so I DO want this slot resolved NOW.

At the beginning Hu claimed vanilla, later after being pushed claimed doctor, its somewhere in her iso. I would find it, but i need to go to work

If this is the case then I'd like to see this slot flip Day 2.

VOTE: Hu Tao

"

if so

I DO want this slot resolved NOW" and "

if this is the case

then I'd like to see this slot flip Day 2." - both of the bolded read as a little hedgey and overly justified to me. Like, if you don't know for sure, and you want to be sure, then check for yourself before you vote. I just feel like this vote really wants to look "correct", and RN wants people reading it to think the "correct" play is to lim Hu Tao. If I'm right about why Black died and that Hu Tao was the target coming in to toDay this is either very scumsiding town or just obvscum. I'm inclined to say RN is scumsiding for now due to Gamma interactions, but this is concerning in a town!HT world

Hu Tao vs Celebloki could contain a scum.
Hu Tao looks much worse, that slot is untrustworthy. Starting with her is less risky than limming potential useful town PR but also her flip gets plenty of useful info.
I wanted to go this way but allowed Broccoli and Hu to make me hesitate.
Out of the 3 i feel like Hu has the best chance of rolling scum.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Now Naerys is back to a possible Gamma, Hu Tao, Broccoli pairing I think, based on "Out of the 3" - she only mentions HT, Broccoli, and Celebloki in that post. I think if you think of what is more likely, based on the way Celebloki targeted last Night, that Celebloki is more likely scum that Hu Tao. I'd like to give him at least one more Night to make a better decision before considering limming him though.

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

At least one of these last 3 is scum and it's looking like Roden to me based on Dunn's claim and Guillo's associations to Gamma

Ok Ive caught up, now time to back read for Gamma's spew.

I forgot why I quoted this one but it feels like it was important

I see Hu Tao was E-2 as of last night, could we not rush this Day please?

gtmh the rest of the team is Celebloki, Roden, Keyleth

VOTE: Roden

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Andresvmb whatever happened to this dude?

scum!roden=town!andresvmb

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I’m in the middle of a deep dive of D1 so I’ll return with all my thoughts once I’ve fully caught up, which may take a few hours.

In the mean time, VOTE: Elements.

Could you explain the reasoning for voting Elements here btw?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

You took my lack of interest in voting a particular player as a refusal of participation in your townblock. That feels like a form of bullying where if players don’t act in the way you want, you will eject them from your clique.
VOTE: Broccoli Quest 2
On writing that out I realized that feels pretty scum indicative because I am pretty sure that’s mafia (as in the irl crime organization) behavior? Not trying to imply anything about you personally, just saying I think a tactic like that would work for scum play.

This feels similar to how Gamma voted me btw; it should be clear BQ2 is town off this. Particularly the second half reminds me of "I feel like a bastard for this" from OMB

This is sort of directed at Andres, I'm reading your long post with post tags and notes now and I see you are not clearing BQ2 off the Gamma flip so far because Gamma didn't actually vote BQ2 earlier on

[ssbm_Kyouko]

in reading 1847 I left off at the note on 640 but I gtg now. Might try to read more on my phone but post tags are hard there, switching between tabs sucks on mobile

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dave gob keyleth timmer elements andres.

I think is where I want to be today. Black seemed to be a proponent of leaving Hu Tao alive, maybe this is part of why she was killed.

Celebloki is off the list today because I can see him maybe making a poor targeting decision as town. I liked a point someone brought up about rolecopping the millers. Something like "that's the easiest way to let scum get away with a fake claim". I do think that town!Hu Tao is exactly who a scum!Rolecop would target and for that reason I dont want him to have the easy out of confirming miller claims

I also have not examined Andres' post where he has a lot of post numbers with notes in a spoiler. It could be upon reading that closely I don't want to lim him toDay.

I don't understand this post. You like the point about how claiming to plan to check the millers is an easy out for a scum, AND you think it makes sense for a scum cop to have checked Hu Tao, AND you don't want him to have the easy out of confirming millers, and yet... Celeb is off of your vote list today? And I am on your list, even though I'm the one who made the point that you say you liked, and which it seems is heavily informing your view of Celeb?

Am I misunderstanding, you seem to be contradicting yourself within the span of a single post.

You're partly misunderstanding and partly making assumptions:

Clarifying the misunderstanding - it makes sense for scum rolecop to target Hu Tao last Night specifically. It would be an easy out to let Celebloki check Dunn and I (the Miller claims) moving forward on Nights 2 and on, as scum!Celebloki can just check other targets and say he checked us and that we are Millers.

Celeb is off my list toDay because if he is town he should be given a chance to make a not pro-scum choice with his target toNight.

You assume because it was you that pointed out that targeting millers is an easy out for scum rolecops, that I would clear you from POE. I'm not sure what gives you this idea, but it doesn't clear you in my eyes. Additionally, as I stated in the post originally, I didn't remember who made the post, I just remembered reading it.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@Roden - are you a miller? Gob confirmed he was when I told him his predecessor claimed it. When dave asked him to confirm if that was a joke he never replied before replacing out.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

To make clear where I stand:

Spewed town by gamma: Nurse, Guillo, Kyouko, Hu Tao(?), Myself (I already know I'm town but objectively I'm also spewed by interactions with Gamma)

Pretty towny: davesaz (mindmeld on reads), Celeb (guilty on HT felt organic), Dunnstral (I already forgot why but I'm pretty sure I have good reasons to TR this slot)

PoE left: Naerys, Keyleth, Roden, Elements, Andres, Timmer

Out of these I'm actually sus of Elements, Roden, Timmer. But I'm pretty sure this is not the exact scum team.

Choose your pick of which of these three to wagon, or make a case on any of the other three in the PoE, and I will vote there.

If it was up to me, no one would be eliminated today except for Hu Tao unless someone comes with a mech scum result on someone else.
I'm not going to delay the optimal play here, the longer Hu Tao lives the better for scum regardless of her alignment, the longer Hu Tao lives, the worse the game state will become, and it is better to eliminate her now than waiting for mylo/lylo situation to do so where we would lose if she is town.

So stop going for the suboptimal play or I'm going to have to retract my townread on you

, because I can only see scum benefiting for letting her live here. We need to know if Hu Tao is town and the only way we are finding out for sure is with her flip.

LOL

Are you THREATENING me?

I'd be down to vote Hu Tao despite my TR if it helped the game state, but not I'm not voting her on principle due to you threatening me. Reads are not punishment (or rewards). They are reads.

2) We cant trust her if she is a known fake claimer as either alignment.
The optimal play is to eliminate Hu Tao to make sure she is indeed town.

Counterpoint: If she's a known fake claimer as either alignment,

her fake claim is NAI

and you gotta judge her for

other aspects of her play

.

I'm judging her for her play in this game, the point 1 which you left out and didnt comment on.

You mean the point 1 which is explicitly about fake claiming?

1)

Hu Tao claims Doctor

under pressure and at a point she was about to be eliminated which if
a) she is scum she did it to bait out the real doctor claim.
b) she is town, she risked making the real doctor counterclaim to save herself as vanilla. Vanilla has one job and that is to cover for PRs.

If you can give me ONE reason that Hu Tao is scum that doesn't include any of the following words, I might be willing to vote her:
{claim, fake, Doctor, Vanilla, role}

If she really is scum, it shouldn't be too hard to find such a reason.

So you consider a threat that i stop townreading you? Nooice! =D
If you flip scum in this game this is the post im gonna point out that spews me not partnered with you, thank you very much.

Im promoting the optimal play. This is not a case of “yeet all liars”, Hu Tao fake claimed a CCable role and put an important role at risk if it exists in this game. Whether Hu Tao is scum (most likely) or she is a high liability townie, there is no way to know as they were already copped and got caught lying so the next step after a check is the yeet! what dont you understand? Or what am i not understanding from you?

Facts: no town PRs CCed them. Hu Tao is confirmed vanilla and can't do it again. So what's the liability now that it's said and done?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Elements feels too active and invested

This is such a wild take

Why do you think he said it?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Right, Keyleth had that point about someone's votes during Gamma's deadline wagon, gotta check that

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Hu Tao looks good off the Gamma flip though, no? I wouldn't vote there today.

I also think the same can be said for Guilo and Celeb. I was looking back at the attempted flash wagon on Gamma and they're the votes that stood out to me the most.

I see Keyleth is being replaced now unfortunately, but Celebloki didn't vote Gamma and I don't see anything that screams he's town to me around the Gamma wagon. I do see he was already saying yesterday he didn't want to lim either me or Dunn (as well as some others), but of that lost he didnt necessarily TR all of them. I think this is transparently a town rolecop hinting he intends to check millers and I'm assuming now that the crumbs he found were a doctor's/protective's based on how he was asking about "does it make sense for there to be 2 doctors in the setup".

So I'll take back that you should be checking the player whose crumbs you found @Celebloki. It would be wasteful to investigate me after my interactions with Gamma yesterDay. I don't think you should be investigating Dunn either tbh.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Alright, Hu Tao.

You have been mislimmed a lot right? Werent you mislimmed in a game we played together previously?

Guillotina, hello what is your role?

Where is davesaz? seems unusually quiet this game

At the time of your post, sleeping. Also working (unbelievable number of meetings with everyone wanting to wrap stuff before half the team takes holiday break), recovering from the cold I had over the weekend.

The game is relatively quiet. Not a big fan of "me too"ing and it lacks the fireworks of directly competing large wagons.

I like playing with you a lot davesaz. We are very different people.

Who is the mafia this game?

I was meta diving gob and noticed a pattern in his scumgames btw. He does not address his partners by name, but he does address town by name. I've seen him use "you" instead of a partner's name where it would make sense to use the name instead. In the event he flips scum, this clears Hu Tao, Guillotina, and davesaz.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Quoting 2044 without quote tags so my commentary doesn't appear inside a quote tag, but I'm commenting on these votes now.

Spoiler: quote collection

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

This seems a bit overly defensive. In a weird way, I could see this be teammate talk. But not too strong of a read right now

!!!!!

Calling it. I was right on this.

VOTE: Elements

Let's listen to me today

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

This seems a bit overly defensive. In a weird way, I could see this be teammate talk. But not too strong of a read right now

!!!!!

Calling it. I was right on this.

VOTE: Elements

Let's listen to me today

k

VOTE: Elements

I have no problem with these first two votes, I think both these players are pretty likely town here and I'm not pinged by either of these votes.

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

This upon rereading feels a little "flat" compared to how it should feel? town!Celebloki is supposed to think he has a mechanical guilty here, and this doesn't read like a guilty should to me. There's no excitement whatsoever.

Since i have seen town!Tao lie about being doctor, i suppose she could be town.
I dont see what scum!Broccoli would gain from defending town!Tao - more likely he would support the easy lim. Defending Hu Tao makes sense only in case of both town or both scum. Both being scum is something to think about.

Havent finished my thoughts here, lol. Sent it by mistake.
Anyway, while faking doctor is something Hu Tao did as town, i think we need to look at her behavior since beginning. First she claims vanilla, then when she gets pushed she claims doctor. At the very best she feels untrustworthy, at the worst these are scummy moves. She could be doing it bcz she knows there are players who have seen her faking doctor as town, so she counts on that those will TR her.
Conclusion: flipping Hu gives us decent info. It solves potential Hu+Broccoli+Gamma buddies.
VOTE: Hu Tao

I don't really love this reasoning - I think it's already pretty clear from yesterDay that Broccoli and Gamma are not partnered, but it's early in the Day and I don't think many people had re-read for associations yet. I'm giving this vote the benefit of my existing TR on Naerys and am looking elsewhere.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Once again this is NAI, but we are in D2 now and I'm starting to feel like Elements is maybe hiding behind their posting style.

Naerys it pains me to say this but I agree with Hu Tao that your read is rubbish.

Pedit: Gamma is a her btw.

Additionally, Elements you should probably unvote HT if you are town.

Yeah I should
UNVOTE:

I think if Elements had a scum motivation to be voting Hu Tao though that maybe they hold on a little harder than this? I believe I already noted they never go back to voting HT so tentatively I'm not seeing scum motivation. Hoping to see Elements step up a little more toDay though.

Even though she wants me dead, I still don't think Kyouko's the play today.

This might seem completely out of left field, but I am just pondering scenario's.

In a game this size, and considering Hu Tao's claim of Complex Indecisive Doctor, is a second town protective role likely balance-wise or would that be too town sided?

I think i was hasty in believing Celebloki.
UNVOTE: Hu tao

This is again, a reasonable unvote. I didn't see scum motivation in getting onto the wagon and I don't see this as scum getting off when momentum slows down either

VOTE: Elements

Yeah, if two of my big townreads are on this I will offer my support!

Looking just at this vote I thought Keyleth ignored the guilty on Hu Tao but actually she just refutes it in 1778 saying that from the Gamma flip, HT is pretty likely town, same for Guillo and Celebloki. She attributes the reasoning to their votes on the Gamma flash wagon, so I'll want to look at Celebloki's later and see if I can see what Keyleth saw. I kinda like this because I think scum's plan coming in to toDay was to push Hu Tao (I think this might be the main reason Black was killed) and if Keyleth were scum I don't think she needs to put down her vote on a Hu Tao counterwagon. She barely voted at all yesterDay. The fact she barely voted yesterDay could indicate that as scum, this vote is meant to go against what the rest of the team is doing. Black did think Keyleth and I were scum together, and Gamma sheeped that reasoning. I think Gamma did the same in OMB - some towny, Smoke and Mirrors I believe, thought I was scum with one of Gamma's partners, Something_Smart I think it was. Gamma was like "yeah they could be scum together" and voted me. I think Gamma's idea in that scenario is that she can angle to lim me before her partner and when I flip town she can renege on SRing her partner, while at the same time if her scumpartner is limmed first, she can angle to mislim me afterward.

Overall I like Keyleth's vote here but it gives me actual deepwolf vibes and I'm unwilling to clear her from toDay's pool off that.

I’m in the middle of a deep dive of D1 so I’ll return with all my thoughts once I’ve fully caught up, which may take a few hours.

In the mean time, VOTE: Elements.

I'm not sure why Andres votes here, I'd have to assume he is either sheeping TRs or is sheeping Hu Tao's call that Gamma and Elements are partnered. Reminder to ask Andres in a separate post

So Hu lied about their claim

but it's cool because they are obv-town, Dunn can't understand Black's role and how it resulted in Gamma's death, Celeb soft-suggested a protective role and apparently crumbed some clues but now says they are an investigator and yet we are believing them as well even though they will explain itall tomorrow, does that sum things up?

Was there a hard-claim on this?

If so I DO want this slot resolved NOW.

At the beginning Hu claimed vanilla, later after being pushed claimed doctor, its somewhere in her iso. I would find it, but i need to go to work

If this is the case then I'd like to see this slot flip Day 2.

VOTE: Hu Tao

"

if so

I DO want this slot resolved NOW" and "

if this is the case

then I'd like to see this slot flip Day 2." - both of the bolded read as a little hedgey and overly justified to me. Like, if you don't know for sure, and you want to be sure, then check for yourself before you vote. I just feel like this vote really wants to look "correct", and RN wants people reading it to think the "correct" play is to lim Hu Tao. If I'm right about why Black died and that Hu Tao was the target coming in to toDay this is either very scumsiding town or just obvscum. I'm inclined to say RN is scumsiding for now due to Gamma interactions, but this is concerning in a town!HT world

Hu Tao vs Celebloki could contain a scum.
Hu Tao looks much worse, that slot is untrustworthy. Starting with her is less risky than limming potential useful town PR but also her flip gets plenty of useful info.
I wanted to go this way but allowed Broccoli and Hu to make me hesitate.
Out of the 3 i feel like Hu has the best chance of rolling scum.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Now Naerys is back to a possible Gamma, Hu Tao, Broccoli pairing I think, based on "Out of the 3" - she only mentions HT, Broccoli, and Celebloki in that post. I think if you think of what is more likely, based on the way Celebloki targeted last Night, that Celebloki is more likely scum that Hu Tao. I'd like to give him at least one more Night to make a better decision before considering limming him though.

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

At least one of these last 3 is scum and it's looking like Roden to me based on Dunn's claim and Guillo's associations to Gamma

Ok Ive caught up, now time to back read for Gamma's spew.

I forgot why I quoted this one but it feels like it was important

I see Hu Tao was E-2 as of last night, could we not rush this Day please?

gtmh the rest of the team is Celebloki, Roden, Keyleth

VOTE: Roden

Why would Cele out a VT claim as scum?

Because you lied about it - it's an easy mislim and there's no fallout from it.

Or are you talking about Keyleth? If Celebloki was on that wagon pushing for her claim then them being partners doesn't really make sense. I didn't check that

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Speaking of, Keyleth's replacement might not be a bad check for Celebloki

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dave gob/Roden keyleth timmer elements andres

If Roden is scum, from 2099 and 2142, davesaz and andres are not

Already have a VT claim for Keyleth, I'd still vote there.

I dont think I would vote andres before Roden at this point, I think I'm approaching striking andres out of POE anyways.

I might say the same about dave but I harbor the same suspicions I had D1 and I'd be fine voting him. If he's been against voting Hu Tao today I'll give him preference and look to lim Roden before Dave (because scum!Roden clears Dave)

Elements getting weird about us not using Gamma associations could come from town, but if they're scum it would be good info that we're on the right track

Timmer idk, I think he can still get it

I'd prefer Roden/Elements > Dave > Timmer toDay. Won't vote Hu Tao, I think that's what scum wanted for toDay and I'm not going to join that wagon even in deadline

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I was meta diving gob and noticed a pattern in his scumgames btw. He does not address his partners by name, but he does address town by name. I've seen him use "you" instead of a partner's name where it would make sense to use the name instead.

Do you mind quoting instances of this?

Yes I mind, just trust that I checked and he doesnt address partners by name

Spoiler:

[ssbm_Kyouko]

FWIW I think the reason for that is he wants to draw attention when he uses a name to address someone, as town he does it as a callout, as scum it's usually more as a pocketing tool but he sometimes addresses mislims by their name when pushing them.

Point is, he doesn't intentionally call attention to his partners by calling them out

[ssbm_Kyouko]

No bloop

[ssbm_Kyouko]

leaning Gamma currently. I have the same feeling, that Key might flip town, from her most recent posting. Also remembering that when I asked gob to confirm his predecessor's non-existent miller claim, Keyleth expressed confusion. I think if she's informed she sees what I'm doing. At the same time I feel like earlier there were conflicting statements about not using logic/analysis followed by an analytical post. When called out Keyleth thereafter fell back to her "normal" posting. I will come back to Keyleth if we need to but I'd probably rather lim a lurker than Keyleth

rereading looking for who was voting Gamma when, because I don't remember if we really did that yet, and I realize I overlooked the possibility that if they are teamed, Keyleth would be confused by gob confirming he's a Miller (later Roden states this was not a true claim). I think if Roden is town it brings Keylith's scum equity down, but a scum!Roden flip negates this "uninformed" point in town!Keyleth's favor. I just realized I don't know for sure if it's Keyleth or Keylith

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Reread some of the end of the day, looking for the Gamma wagon - thoughts:

I feel like Gamma often gets accused of being worried about optics

I saw this in response to some of KawaiiKame's last words. Not great considering Gamma flipped scum. Not really damning evidence here, Elements could say this as town or scum, but it feels worth noting.

Timmer had a bit of a strange end of day. It felt like he was in and out at unusual timings but I think actually what happened was Gamma's claim happened while he was offline.

Pediting my own post: Yeah upon putting all these together and checking timestamps/when Gamma posted her claim, I'm no longer convinced it was a weird end of the day. The progression feels normal, but I will point out a couple of strange individual posts. At first I thought Timmer skated around voting for Gamma but that's not it.

Just did an iso of Keyleth. I don't see anything scummy, they remind of a player from years ago named Juliets' Coffee who posted in the same polite middle ground style. I won't oppose a lim there if that's where we're going, but I'm not really supportive. I'd rather see Celeb or Kyouko, or even Gamma limmed ahead of them personally.

If Timmer is scum this is a bold post given the Gamma flip. If he's scum it would not be with Celeb or I, because why would you put 2 partners in a pool of 3 to be limmed before Keyleth here, regardless of Key's alignment?

I also feel like stating that Keyleth reminds you of another player and using that to indicate that the overall neutrality and lack of anything scummy in Keyleth's posts is kind of like, if not exactly the same thing, as using meta to support a read, which is relevant to the next post's commentary.

I don't really pay attention to any case based on what someone said in a game at some point in the past. A good player can use their meta to their advantage and fuck around with it. Past games and meta are useless imo. Show me shady things from THIS game, not something in last July.

That said, would rooting through past games be alignment indicative? Does that effort to find that old post make Kyouko lean more town?

Kinda weird post... He doesn't pay attention to my meta case on

Gamma

because he doesn't believe in meta being useful, but in the same post he's asking if anyone can confirm I have a town meta of putting effort into meta dives. Maybe this is feeling around if there's still a possibility I can be eliminated on D1 - his vote was on me at the time. Iirc I thought his vote on me looked towny but was also easily faked.

UNVOTE:

Any chance of an updated vc?

This feels like a weird time to unvote to me because his vote is currently on me. I don't see what unvoting me does at this point. I would get it if he was voting Hu Tao or Gamma. Maybe he's just resetting it for the VC but it feels like maybe he's forgotten who he's voting

Additionally, Guillo was pretty vocal in asking me for reasons from

this

game to SR Gamma, and dave was saying that what I'm reading in Gamma's posts is her personality and not distinguishable. Between Guillo, davesaz, and Timmer, there were a few people discrediting my Gamma case

[ssbm_Kyouko]

[youtube][/youtube]

I was just wondering how they would be summoned from a pt unless they were already on the site and probably following along

What's a pt?

Is this a townslip?

[youtube][/youtube]

I was just wondering how they would be summoned from a pt unless they were already on the site and probably following along

What's a pt?

What did Celeb soft claim? How did I miss that

private topic. getting a little obvious with the townslips bucko

[ssbm_Kyouko]

They seem faked

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Are you disloyal?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Or loyal? Idk which is which, are you the one that dies if you target someone you aren't aligned with?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh this is a happy turn of events

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Was bummed about BQ2 being doc because that would mean he was likely getting NKed and that my top TR was getting NKed again

[ssbm_Kyouko]

They*

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Guillo, Elements, Naerys voted after the last VC, that's hammer.

Roden if you're town, now's your twilight

[ssbm_Kyouko]

also @town if I'm dead tomorrow and Roden flipped scum, DO NOT FORGET what I said about gob mentioning partners by name. It is accurate at clearing townies.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

This should go without saying but dont check Guillo unless Roden flips doctor

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I feel like I need to say it given you checked Hu Tao thought

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Though* and talking to Cele

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I did have some early thoughts I wrote down around the time I made my vote, but again I don’t think these are super reliable. In any event, they are as follows:

61 - TimmerRC is probably just Town. Getting a tad upset at a VT claim probably comes from a place of someone who wants the Town to win (which explains the annoyance with a claim that would, if serious, hurt the Town). I see that it was later clarified that it was a serious claim - I thought it had to be a joke, and don’t view it positively either.
67 - This is a Scummy post from KawaiiKame. TimmerRC didn’t call it weird. They didn’t even really imply it was coming from Scum. They simply seemed to question the logic behind making the claim at all.
105 - I agree with the logic here.
117 - This is Town posting by Black.
120 - I don’t know if Town is likely to give out this defense. I am leaning negative on Dunnstral.
137 - This just feels like a bad vote to me.
213 - I am not getting the vibes expressed by Hu Tao, which is why I have negative thoughts (I don’t believe the attack).

61 - Timmer said he comes from a site where claiming is not allowed and was not upset but confused I think? Actually this is unfair of me given the last bit of 61 -

so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

67 - Kawaii didn't say Timmer called it weird - Kawaii was himself calling it weird, and was replying to Timmer's post but was adding more commentary on the Hu Tao VT claim.
120 - Dunn isn't really defending anything here unless you want to say he's defending KawaiiKame

from

Gamma - that's a reference to his earlier post (113) questioning how believable Elements' 40 was.

I thought you misread/misconstrued the 3 posts you had the most "meaty" commentary on but it seems like it was 2 of the 3 actually. Not the happiest with this catch-up

In case I die and anyone cares what my reads were, I'm rereading my ISO for important stuff and wanna point out this is outdated, Andre's is still currently in my POE but my outlook on him has improved significantly since his last catchup which I was still only partway through analyzing

[ssbm_Kyouko]

black play here feels very analytical and logical,

it's hard for me to wrap a read on that given I'm mostly the other way.

Not that I haven't run into people like this but it's a 50/50 most of the time.

Do you think the plan is scummy or are there other reasons you SR BQ?

I just typically scumread plans like this. It always reads as an attempt to get a bunch of information out on the table in order to make the optimal NK's and night targets. I think it could come from town though so it's just meh

You said the plan was "interesting" ...what does that mean? Do you think it's scummy or nah?

I don’t think it’s scummy in isolation; with additional context it could be. But in this instance I think it’s a town move.

Really? I've seen that plan executed by wolves before, at least if you put the plan into action given you're asking for support on a wagon and who are the top towns. I think it's a net positive for wolves, while for town it depends on the first hit. So in isolation you can see how the post is sort of wolfy.

However, with the added context with how Broccoli is playing I'm more inclined to believe it's in good faith. Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if I wasn't nodding along with their previous posts but yeah.

Idk, this kinda feels analytical and logical to me

actually same reaction get out of my head charles

Wouldn't mind if someone, Celebloki or otherwise, checked Enchant toNight. Keyleth claimed VT on D1

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Wait, three miller claims so far? I thought there were only two did I miss one?

Uninformed

Reminder I later realized this confusion might stem from being a gob(Roden) teammate. Please check this slot if Roden flips red, check Guillo if Roden flips Doctor

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Feels notable and possibly +town that Elements was on Hu Tao early, left quickly, and hasn't been on their wagon since given that Elements is the second-biggest wagon of the Day

Quoting 2044 without quote tags so my commentary doesn't appear inside a quote tag, but I'm commenting on these votes now.

Spoiler: quote collection

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

This seems a bit overly defensive. In a weird way, I could see this be teammate talk. But not too strong of a read right now

!!!!!

Calling it. I was right on this.

VOTE: Elements

Let's listen to me today

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

This seems a bit overly defensive. In a weird way, I could see this be teammate talk. But not too strong of a read right now

!!!!!

Calling it. I was right on this.

VOTE: Elements

Let's listen to me today

k

VOTE: Elements

I have no problem with these first two votes, I think both these players are pretty likely town here and I'm not pinged by either of these votes.

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

This upon rereading feels a little "flat" compared to how it should feel? town!Celebloki is supposed to think he has a mechanical guilty here, and this doesn't read like a guilty should to me. There's no excitement whatsoever.

Since i have seen town!Tao lie about being doctor, i suppose she could be town.
I dont see what scum!Broccoli would gain from defending town!Tao - more likely he would support the easy lim. Defending Hu Tao makes sense only in case of both town or both scum. Both being scum is something to think about.

Havent finished my thoughts here, lol. Sent it by mistake.
Anyway, while faking doctor is something Hu Tao did as town, i think we need to look at her behavior since beginning. First she claims vanilla, then when she gets pushed she claims doctor. At the very best she feels untrustworthy, at the worst these are scummy moves. She could be doing it bcz she knows there are players who have seen her faking doctor as town, so she counts on that those will TR her.
Conclusion: flipping Hu gives us decent info. It solves potential Hu+Broccoli+Gamma buddies.
VOTE: Hu Tao

I don't really love this reasoning - I think it's already pretty clear from yesterDay that Broccoli and Gamma are not partnered, but it's early in the Day and I don't think many people had re-read for associations yet. I'm giving this vote the benefit of my existing TR on Naerys and am looking elsewhere.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Once again this is NAI, but we are in D2 now and I'm starting to feel like Elements is maybe hiding behind their posting style.

Naerys it pains me to say this but I agree with Hu Tao that your read is rubbish.

Pedit: Gamma is a her btw.

Additionally, Elements you should probably unvote HT if you are town.

Yeah I should
UNVOTE:

I think if Elements had a scum motivation to be voting Hu Tao though that maybe they hold on a little harder than this? I believe I already noted they never go back to voting HT so tentatively I'm not seeing scum motivation. Hoping to see Elements step up a little more toDay though.

Even though she wants me dead, I still don't think Kyouko's the play today.

This might seem completely out of left field, but I am just pondering scenario's.

In a game this size, and considering Hu Tao's claim of Complex Indecisive Doctor, is a second town protective role likely balance-wise or would that be too town sided?

I think i was hasty in believing Celebloki.
UNVOTE: Hu tao

This is again, a reasonable unvote. I didn't see scum motivation in getting onto the wagon and I don't see this as scum getting off when momentum slows down either

VOTE: Elements

Yeah, if two of my big townreads are on this I will offer my support!

Looking just at this vote I thought Keyleth ignored the guilty on Hu Tao but actually she just refutes it in 1778 saying that from the Gamma flip, HT is pretty likely town, same for Guillo and Celebloki. She attributes the reasoning to their votes on the Gamma flash wagon, so I'll want to look at Celebloki's later and see if I can see what Keyleth saw. I kinda like this because I think scum's plan coming in to toDay was to push Hu Tao (I think this might be the main reason Black was killed) and if Keyleth were scum I don't think she needs to put down her vote on a Hu Tao counterwagon. She barely voted at all yesterDay. The fact she barely voted yesterDay could indicate that as scum, this vote is meant to go against what the rest of the team is doing. Black did think Keyleth and I were scum together, and Gamma sheeped that reasoning. I think Gamma did the same in OMB - some towny, Smoke and Mirrors I believe, thought I was scum with one of Gamma's partners, Something_Smart I think it was. Gamma was like "yeah they could be scum together" and voted me. I think Gamma's idea in that scenario is that she can angle to lim me before her partner and when I flip town she can renege on SRing her partner, while at the same time if her scumpartner is limmed first, she can angle to mislim me afterward.

Overall I like Keyleth's vote here but it gives me actual deepwolf vibes and I'm unwilling to clear her from toDay's pool off that.

I’m in the middle of a deep dive of D1 so I’ll return with all my thoughts once I’ve fully caught up, which may take a few hours.

In the mean time, VOTE: Elements.

I'm not sure why Andres votes here, I'd have to assume he is either sheeping TRs or is sheeping Hu Tao's call that Gamma and Elements are partnered. Reminder to ask Andres in a separate post

So Hu lied about their claim

but it's cool because they are obv-town, Dunn can't understand Black's role and how it resulted in Gamma's death, Celeb soft-suggested a protective role and apparently crumbed some clues but now says they are an investigator and yet we are believing them as well even though they will explain itall tomorrow, does that sum things up?

Was there a hard-claim on this?

If so I DO want this slot resolved NOW.

At the beginning Hu claimed vanilla, later after being pushed claimed doctor, its somewhere in her iso. I would find it, but i need to go to work

If this is the case then I'd like to see this slot flip Day 2.

VOTE: Hu Tao

"

if so

I DO want this slot resolved NOW" and "

if this is the case

then I'd like to see this slot flip Day 2." - both of the bolded read as a little hedgey and overly justified to me. Like, if you don't know for sure, and you want to be sure, then check for yourself before you vote. I just feel like this vote really wants to look "correct", and RN wants people reading it to think the "correct" play is to lim Hu Tao. If I'm right about why Black died and that Hu Tao was the target coming in to toDay this is either very scumsiding town or just obvscum. I'm inclined to say RN is scumsiding for now due to Gamma interactions, but this is concerning in a town!HT world

Hu Tao vs Celebloki could contain a scum.
Hu Tao looks much worse, that slot is untrustworthy. Starting with her is less risky than limming potential useful town PR but also her flip gets plenty of useful info.
I wanted to go this way but allowed Broccoli and Hu to make me hesitate.
Out of the 3 i feel like Hu has the best chance of rolling scum.

VOTE: Hu Tao

Now Naerys is back to a possible Gamma, Hu Tao, Broccoli pairing I think, based on "Out of the 3" - she only mentions HT, Broccoli, and Celebloki in that post. I think if you think of what is more likely, based on the way Celebloki targeted last Night, that Celebloki is more likely scum that Hu Tao. I'd like to give him at least one more Night to make a better decision before considering limming him though.

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

VOTE: Hu Tao

At least one of these last 3 is scum and it's looking like Roden to me based on Dunn's claim and Guillo's associations to Gamma

Ok Ive caught up, now time to back read for Gamma's spew.

I forgot why I quoted this one but it feels like it was important

I see Hu Tao was E-2 as of last night, could we not rush this Day please?

gtmh the rest of the team is Celebloki, Roden, Keyleth

VOTE: Roden

Couple other reminders here, although it's feeling less likely to me now that Celebloki is scum after some rereading. Just don't let him coast off the claim if it gets too late in the game please. I'm pretty sure Roden just flips scum here from the silence (though maybe he's not around, haven't checked) and in that case I'm even more sold on Keyleth/Enchant scum I think. Have to check.votes but the one thing Keyleth had going for her in my eyes was the confusion over gob's Miller claim, the rest of her posting seemed nullish except that one time she sort of contradicted herself in the span of 2 posts, saying first she doesn't go with logical posts and then in the next post she was a bit logical. Kinda like how Timmer was simultaneously against using meta to SR gamma but was also asking for meta cases to TR me

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Timmer, Enchant are the last 2 if Roden flips red imo

[ssbm_Kyouko]

2277 nice (max total level on OSRS. I dont play anymore because it ruins my life but the number holds a special place in my heart)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also as I pointed out in my quote wall that I just requoted as a reminder, 1851 by RN seemed a bit proscum if you accept that Hu Tao is who scum wanted to mislim toDay.

If I'm far off track with {Roden, Enchant, Timmer}, this slot should maybe be revisited later on

[ssbm_Kyouko]

See explanation in the quote wall

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Green and Hu are red team, green is pushing to lim you into me for two mislims

Is there actually 2 scum teams?

mod confirmed the game is singleball in setup-related posts ITT - I assume this also means there can be no third parties

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@mod you have Keyleth back in the VC instead of Enchant

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think BQ2 and Celebloki both saw protective crumbs from Guillotina and he did say he was doctor

[ssbm_Kyouko]

perky miller

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Colored roles are flipped - does this look right so far or am I missing anything?

Babysitter Hider (NOT Combined)
Rolecop

Miller
Miller
2-Shot Indecisive Doctor
1-Shot FN
unclaimed FN
6 VTs

vs.

Complex Alien
goon

??
??

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I don't think 6 have claimed VT. I know of two VT claims (Hu Tao and Enchant slot). Maybe put 4 ?? unless there are more VT claims I didn't notice in which case adjust?

I'm just assuming 6 as "fillers" because I'm looking to lay them out to help decide if the roles make sense

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Dunn should just claim who it came from, no need to waste time waiting for them to appear

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think Dunn should just claim who it came from, no need to waste time waiting for them to appear

I also wonder if Dunn is trying something big brained here and is hoping someone will catch on and pretend to have FNed him as a way to undermine Naerys and Guillo if town!Dunn thinks those 2 are the last 2 scum, and I would rather just hear him confirm or deny this now so we can move on

[ssbm_Kyouko]

andresvmb or Random Nurse would need to be the FN that messaged Dunn unless the FN is posting without claiming

[ssbm_Kyouko]

or I guess one of the VT claims might have lied because they were a Novice or Even-Night or some other kind of restricted (maybe Complex?) FN

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I have no additional abilities btw, and I support massclaiming - just going to post this now since andres will probably be a while and I won't be very active later tonight.

I'm also against speedwagon

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Ugh massclaim at this point just seems silly.

VOTE: Naerys

The structure of this role doesn’t jibe so I think it’s Scum.

Did you FN Dunnstral?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I’m an Odd Night Messenger, Even Night Friendly Neighbor.

Eh? Can that be a thing?

Yes, like the Babysitter Hider that already flipped

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Can you doublecheck your role PM though Andres and confirm the name of your role

[ssbm_Kyouko]

nm - I assume mailman, like strongman, was deprecated due it being a gendered role

[ssbm_Kyouko]

"Messenger" struck me as maybe you misrembered (or lied because you were mixed up) "mailman" but I checked the wiki and Messenger seems to be the new name for Mailman

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Naerys are you sticking to 1-shot as your full claim? I'm curious why you didn't act N1 in that case

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also fwiw I can see this "kind" of setup being a thing - the FNs, Millers, and a rolecop to confirm things without flipping - the Complex Alien fits with Millers - it would be able to stop FN messages going to Millers or stop the FN from sending a message out.

Hider Babysitter could just have been negative util for the town where more often than not it results in a double kill on town.

Maybe mafia has a traffic analyst to try to find FNs? I think that's how that interaction works. It would definitely spot a Messenger.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Naerys are you sticking to 1-shot as your full claim? I'm curious why you didn't act N1 in that case

Why would she? To whom?

That's for her to answer

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If mafia have a goon and a PR, I suggest we attempt to get the PR first. I'll settle for the goon if we don't have a good suspect for the PR.

I want Broccoli or Nurse to claim before me, and I want reactions to that request.

sure, you seem to be softing you have something important to reveal about one or the other so they should both claim before you

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Good news is you can't all 4 be scum - due to the way FN works we should be killing Guillo or Dunn if we think Naerys or Andres are possibly lying, but I think both FNs are legit

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Good news is you can't all 4 be scum - due to the way FN works we should be killing Guillo or Dunn if we think Naerys or Andres are possibly lying, but I think both FNs are legit

Killing scum!me would not confirm scum!Naerys
And same goes for Andres/Dunn.

Why cant i be scum confirming Fn Naerys?

Wouldnt killing Naerys confirm we both are lying if she was scum with me? Same goes for Andres/Dunn.

That’d be a too risky play to do as scum specially after losing two, i dont think Andres/Dunn do it, it’s suicidal, specially because it would appear as a double counterclaim.

Occam’s razor all four of us are town or only Dunn is scum. (Or myself from Dunn’s perspective if he is town).

The bold is why you or Dunn would die first if we suspected a FN - scumflips of either of you would not confirm the claimed FNs are scum, it would just un-clear them

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh gob addressed guillo by name so yeah we probably looking at 4 town there

[ssbm_Kyouko]

No but I will soon. I'll try to get it by tonight but if not then tomorrow.

I'm not gonna read it all but i'll read the beginning and look at votes and stuff.

I just got a question though, if you have not caught up, why are you voting Kyo for then?

Because I don't find Hu Tao scummy, and among the people voting Hu Tao Kyo is the one I have voted the least in past games.

That is the reason lol. I feel like im always voting

Celebloki

and

Gamma

.

Is this directed at me to show gob uses scum buddies' names? He talks about them.by name, but does not address them directly by name, to be clear, that's why I say "address"

[ssbm_Kyouko]

RN should target VT claims to see if he can get any clears probably

[ssbm_Kyouko]

His target should not be publicized though, because he can kill himself targeting scum, it would just be WIFOM as to whether he killed himself or scum killed him based on who he was going to target

[ssbm_Kyouko]

We're currently at 10-2 with 4 confirms if I'm remembering this game right. 8-2, 6-2, 4-2, we have 3 mislims before MELO and RN can confirm townies every day as long as he lives, and if he dies we dont lose a mislim because we're on evens.

Let's finish the massclaim and find the line, I suspect mechanically we're able to lock this one down toDay.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Presumably one of the last 2 scum has already fakeclaimed a PR but if all the claims are legit we should be ok, and if there is a liar the mechanics should out them

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm on page 101 where the claims stopped. Enchant is probably a good lim but please dont rush it right now, I want to look over the mechanics before end of day.

I know several of you have seen my mech-solves so unvote temporarily please at least - those that have seen them recently include Dunnstral, Broccoli, Elements, Hu Tao, maybe Elements if he spectate after dying in that recently completed 9:12 Open game

[ssbm_Kyouko]

maybe Elements if they spectate after dying in that recently completed 9:12 Open game

I didn't die in 9:12 so I'm assuming you mean someone else?

yeah I meant Enchant, he replaced in close to D1 deadline and hammered scum!cobblerfone, then got NKed

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@mod

- if a Traffic Analyst checked a Friendly Neighbor (both unmodified), would the TA receive a "Can Communicate" result assuming no other interference?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm back and forth on whether Dave should reveal modifiers, I think if I've seen it then scum has, especially since scum knows whether or not dave's action was interfered with N1, and they know Dunn's alignment and (probably) his role - it would be weird for town to fakeclaim miller out the gate meaning if he's town they'll take that at face value, and if he's scum they know whether he's vanilla or PR.

I think trying to roleswap with Celebloki was very town for Dunn though so yeah, scum should know why the neighborize failed and should be able to tell you're either disloyal or simple, unless they aliened you or Dunn. If they'd aliened Dunn and you hadn't softed you might have been able to get someone. I'm assuming you're just simple and if that's the case I'm not into an Enchant lim, I think mafia has only one goon

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm just going to post everything I have so far, there are times where I was thinking dave should and shouldn't claim modifiers so you'll see sometimes I talk as if he should hide them and others I consider disloyal versus simple.

Black - Babysitter Hider
Celeb - Rolecop
Kawaii - VT

Hu Tao - VT
Elements - VT
Broccoli Quest 2 - VT
Enchant - VT
TimmerRC - VT

Dunnstral - Miller
ssbm_Kyouko - Miller
Andresvmb - Odd Night Messenger Even Night Friendly Neighbor
Naerys - 1-Shot Friendly Neighbor
Guillotina - 2-Shot Indecisive Doctor
Random Nurse - Macho Combined Bodyguard Disloyal Vigilante
davesaz - Simple/Disloyal (guessing modifier) Neighborizer

vs.

Gamma - Goon
Roden - Complex Alien

Guillo and RN are the most suspicious claims, but RNs claim is more valuable

RN bodyguards dave
dave checks Guillo or a VT

12 alive, 10-2
1 8-2
2 6-2
3 4-2
4 2-2

We get 3 mislims before MELO, 4 lims total
Could be scum are 1-1 or 2-0/0-2 between VTs/PRs.

Assuming there is scum in the VTs, if we lim there, scum would have to kill PRs, because killing a VT would leave 4 VTs and we have 4 mislims.
Let's look at the possibilty there are 2 scum in the PR claims - if we can establish this is not the case, it means there is at least one in the VTs and we can lim in there.
Dunnstral was not neighborized by Dann - Dann is probably either disloyal or simple, so I could see Dunn as just being town here.
Kyouko - I know I'm town but am otherwise unconfirmed by any PR results
Andres - if he's scum it means Dunnstral is too. Dunnstral is probably not scum which means by extension Andres's FN claim checks out and he's town. Andres can send a message to someone toNight to confirm that half of his role as well, and toMorrow night he'll also be able to confirm himself to someone else and that will entirely rule him out of being scum because there are only 2 left
Naerys - same thing as Andres, if she is scum it is with Guillo
Guillo - suspicious that the claim is 2-shot so it now can't be used to help out anymore. With Mafia having an Alien they could stop or kill an ungated Doc
RN - if he's town he can confirm townies every day he doesn't die, and if he's scum he still has to provide us with results in either the PRs or the VTs to narrow things down
Dave - has softed his role is either Simple or Disloyal and will be a prime target for NKs if he is town

It seems unlikely fmpov there are 2 scum amongst the PRs unless it's exactly {Guillo, Naerys} meaning there should be at least 1 in the VTs. Could also be {RN, Dunnstral} - Dunnstral is definitely capable of fabricating RN's claim for him

VTs:

Hu Tao
Elements
BQ2
Enchant - knowing dave's modifiers will shed light on whether this could really be a VT, I don't think there are any goons left. If we kill this and it flips scum PR we will know dave is disloyal but the way he says Enchant is a goon I lean toward simple meaning this is likely just a mislim given town's power level
Timmer

PRs:
Dunnstral - being confirmed/flipped would confirm andres
Kyouko - none
Andres - can send a message to confirm he is a messenger / is confirmed if Dunn is confirmed
Naerys - is confirmed if Guillo is confirmed
Guillo - can be pseudo-confirmed by dave regardless of his modifier, or confirmed if dave is disloyal - disloyal seems too strong for the setup though
RN - can confirm townies every day
Dave - able to confirm other PRs if simple

If we are left with Guillo/Naerys or Andres/Dunn after 3 mislims (6 alive), Dunn/Guillo should contain a scum (Guillo dies first if all 4 live)

All these role make Traffic Analyst very likely for mafia.
An Informed TA could give them the edge if they were informed about things like the existence of dave's role or the existence of FNs (this makes Guillo/Naerys suspect)
Could also see a Simple Alien or similar being able to fuck with the interactions with VTs.
I think Mafia either have 3 PRs, or one of andres/naerys/RN is lying due to "Friendly Neighbor" and "Vigilante" being town-only in normals, which means these are further ways for town to get clears
Probably Mafia have 3 PRs, the flipped Complex Alien, a Traffic Analyst (possibly informed), and something else that can interfere with clears like, idk, a disloyal/simple rolestopper or even a disloyal jailkeeper would look pretty towny to a rolecop, no?


Babysitter Hider is swingy and combined bodyguard disloyal vigilante can be swingy too I guess, can either kill himself or get clears, and given mafia had an alien he wouldn't be able to do anything once his role came out so it's not too imbalanced in town's favor in that respect.

I think Andres should send a message to dave as a way of checking if dave is being rolestopped or aliened, and RN should bodyguard dave. assuming NAR (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ormal_Game), even if andres is NKed, dave would get the message:

Killing doesn't stop the actions of the dead player. (Imagine that all kills happen at the end of the night, and everyone pulls the trigger simultaneously.) This means that kills generally do not affect other actions for the purpose of the Golden Rule.

Scum could risk blocking Andres but in this case dave's hood would go off and as long as he doesn't reveal his target or modifiers, scum will be incentivized to stop dave from getting clears/guilties / frame his targets

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Maybe just limming in the VTs and having Dave confirm in the VTs while RN protects Dave is a good start, while Andres messages Guillo, forcing Guillo to cross-confirm Andres as town. I think this helps resolve the PR claims while simultaneously POEing the VTs

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dave could also check a PR if he's so inclined, but if he's simple that will be a soft result, there will be no way to know if he was blocked or if his target was a PR. I don't think mafia has any goons left so clearing vanillas is a good route if dave is simple

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Yes he did claim it, let me grab it

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Thanks Broccoli.

If Enchant is scum then the other scum already knows this, and if not then it's pretty useless aside from giving scum an impossible POE.
I'm a Town Neighborizer. I neighborized Enchant, hoping for good side discussion. Basically nothing said in the hood. Combined with their posting today I think we have a scum lim coming, as I would have expected town!Enchant to talk my ears off.

My n1 target of Dunn didn't work. I know why not, and that info doesn't help town right now (it's something useless we basically already know that was confirmed). Keeping it quiet could be crucial for tomorrow or it could be inconsequential, so I'd like to play the odds and hope for crucial. If scum decide to kill me over a conf (yeah right but jic) then at least you'll be able to interpret that result.

I'd kinda like to look for a scum PR instead of the goon that I think Enchant would flip, but it's almost torture to not lim at this point. I have no idea of the count and want to allow for coordination if desired, but consider this intent.

Here he says he targeted Dunn and it didn't work, but he doesn't know why. By saying he doesn't know why, it implies he thinks it could be something other than the Alien. By saying keeping it quiet could be crucial or inconsequential it implies something about his own role - otherwise it could never give crucial information to town!dave. I think dave is thinking it's possible he either failed because he's simple and Dunn has a PR (Miller or scum PR), or he's Disloyal and Dunn is town

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It's also critical to know if dave is simple or disloyal because if disloyal we can plan night actions much better because scum are not multitasking. Most likely he's simple because Dave has also been saying he thinks Enchant will flip as goon specifically, not as PR

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Organizing VTs from towniest to scummiest imo

BQ2
Hu Tao
--null line--
Elements
Enchant
Timmer

Enchant moves above BQ2 to the very top if Dave claims he is simple - I don't think there are 2 goons, I think the last 2 scum are some kind of interference role and a Traffic Analyst

I want to lim Timmer toDay unless Dave is disloyal, and I want dave to check amongst {BQ2, Hu Tao, Elements} if town!Timmer and add {Guillo, Kyouko} to the pool of possible checks if scum!Timmer

[ssbm_Kyouko]

if dave is disloyal we leash RN to dave and dave checks whoever he wants

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm already confirmed vanilla by Cele, so I don't think I should be checked by Dave right? Dave should try to neighbor Elements.

oh yes, oversight by me. He should check in {Elements, BQ2} if town!Timmer and should add the PRs (Myself/Guillo being priority I think) to his pool if scum!Timmer. Or if we lim elements then just swap their names. I don't think checking the PRs does much good so even with a scumflip I would prefer Dave stays within the VTs

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Summary of why it's Timmer:
1. Fake townslips

[youtube][/youtube]

I was just wondering how they would be summoned from a pt unless they were already on the site and probably following along

What's a pt?

What did Celeb soft claim? How did I miss that

private topic. getting a little obvious with the townslips bucko

2. Subjectively, one might say 2102 is in very bad faith. Others might disagree, idk. I gave him the benefit of the doubt in 2106. Not so sure now.

Dave gob keyleth timmer elements andres.

I think is where I want to be today. Black seemed to be a proponent of leaving Hu Tao alive, maybe this is part of why she was killed.

Celebloki is off the list today because I can see him maybe making a poor targeting decision as town. I liked a point someone brought up about rolecopping the millers. Something like "that's the easiest way to let scum get away with a fake claim". I do think that town!Hu Tao is exactly who a scum!Rolecop would target and for that reason I dont want him to have the easy out of confirming miller claims

I also have not examined Andres' post where he has a lot of post numbers with notes in a spoiler. It could be upon reading that closely I don't want to lim him toDay.

I don't understand this post. You like the point about how claiming to plan to check the millers is an easy out for a scum, AND you think it makes sense for a scum cop to have checked Hu Tao, AND you don't want him to have the easy out of confirming millers, and yet... Celeb is off of your vote list today? And I am on your list, even though I'm the one who made the point that you say you liked, and which it seems is heavily informing your view of Celeb?

Am I misunderstanding, you seem to be contradicting yourself within the span of a single post.

You're partly misunderstanding and partly making assumptions:

Clarifying the misunderstanding - it makes sense for scum rolecop to target Hu Tao last Night specifically. It would be an easy out to let Celebloki check Dunn and I (the Miller claims) moving forward on Nights 2 and on, as scum!Celebloki can just check other targets and say he checked us and that we are Millers.

Celeb is off my list toDay because if he is town he should be given a chance to make a not pro-scum choice with his target toNight.

You assume because it was you that pointed out that targeting millers is an easy out for scum rolecops, that I would clear you from POE. I'm not sure what gives you this idea, but it doesn't clear you in my eyes. Additionally, as I stated in the post originally, I didn't remember who made the post, I just remembered reading it.

3. Timmer discredits meta as a whole when it comes to my meta case on Gamma, and at the same time asks if anyone has meta on me that indicates I'm town from the effort put into reading old Gamma games. Not long before this, Timmer uses something that is similar to if not the same as meta (and even worse, it's meta on another player he equates with Keyleth) to justify town!Keyleth. Seems like he's willing to use meta except when it means Gamma is scum.

Reread some of the end of the day, looking for the Gamma wagon - thoughts:

I feel like Gamma often gets accused of being worried about optics

I saw this in response to some of KawaiiKame's last words. Not great considering Gamma flipped scum. Not really damning evidence here, Elements could say this as town or scum, but it feels worth noting.

Timmer had a bit of a strange end of day. It felt like he was in and out at unusual timings but I think actually what happened was Gamma's claim happened while he was offline.

Pediting my own post: Yeah upon putting all these together and checking timestamps/when Gamma posted her claim, I'm no longer convinced it was a weird end of the day. The progression feels normal, but I will point out a couple of strange individual posts. At first I thought Timmer skated around voting for Gamma but that's not it.

Just did an iso of Keyleth. I don't see anything scummy, they remind of a player from years ago named Juliets' Coffee who posted in the same polite middle ground style. I won't oppose a lim there if that's where we're going, but I'm not really supportive. I'd rather see Celeb or Kyouko, or even Gamma limmed ahead of them personally.

If Timmer is scum this is a bold post given the Gamma flip. If he's scum it would not be with Celeb or I, because why would you put 2 partners in a pool of 3 to be limmed before Keyleth here, regardless of Key's alignment?

I also feel like stating that Keyleth reminds you of another player and using that to indicate that the overall neutrality and lack of anything scummy in Keyleth's posts is kind of like, if not exactly the same thing, as using meta to support a read, which is relevant to the next post's commentary.

I don't really pay attention to any case based on what someone said in a game at some point in the past. A good player can use their meta to their advantage and fuck around with it. Past games and meta are useless imo. Show me shady things from THIS game, not something in last July.

That said, would rooting through past games be alignment indicative? Does that effort to find that old post make Kyouko lean more town?

Kinda weird post... He doesn't pay attention to my meta case on

Gamma

because he doesn't believe in meta being useful, but in the same post he's asking if anyone can confirm I have a town meta of putting effort into meta dives. Maybe this is feeling around if there's still a possibility I can be eliminated on D1 - his vote was on me at the time. Iirc I thought his vote on me looked towny but was also easily faked.

UNVOTE:

Any chance of an updated vc?

This feels like a weird time to unvote to me because his vote is currently on me. I don't see what unvoting me does at this point. I would get it if he was voting Hu Tao or Gamma. Maybe he's just resetting it for the VC but it feels like maybe he's forgotten who he's voting

Additionally, Guillo was pretty vocal in asking me for reasons from

this

game to SR Gamma, and dave was saying that what I'm reading in Gamma's posts is her personality and not distinguishable. Between Guillo, davesaz, and Timmer, there were a few people discrediting my Gamma case

All of these points against Timmer are pre-Roden flip. Haven't checked for those associations yet.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Very little interaction with Gamma, none with Roden/CSF/gob slot. I haven't checked how that slot interacts with Timmer yet, but that's less telling imo.

Spoiler: Timmer/Gamma interaction

Why was roleclaiming forebidden, wtf?????

It was a perfect flip of this style of mafia. All of the roles would be publicly known before the game started, but you could never hint at which you were. It was entirely through game play with zero night action results ever talked about.

Hu’s reaction “could be” false?

Here you must read 1064 then move to the interior of the quote block below to continue the converstation

Obviously I meant the thinking they were hammered part. Dude.

yeah and that’s why I find your word choice an issue. I don’t see how you are undecided on the legitimacy of the reaction, so it feels like manufactured leeway.

You don't believe it could have been a real reaction, to the point that anyone using a simple term to indicate that none of us know if it was or not is scummy to you?

That's not manufactured leeway that's me saying I've seen a lot of weird shit in mafia and I don't jump to assumptions very quickly because of it.

Just did an iso of Keyleth. I don't see anything scummy, they remind of a player from years ago named Juliets' Coffee who posted in the same polite middle ground style. I won't oppose a lim there if that's where we're going, but I'm not really supportive. I'd rather see Celeb or Kyouko, or even Gamma limmed ahead of them personally.

Obviously I meant the thinking they were hammered part. Dude.

yeah and that’s why I find your word choice an issue. I don’t see how you are undecided on the legitimacy of the reaction, so it feels like manufactured leeway.

You don't believe it could have been a real reaction, to the point that anyone using a simple term to indicate that none of us know if it was or not is scummy to you?

That's not manufactured leeway that's me saying I've seen a lot of weird shit in mafia and I don't jump to assumptions very quickly because of it.

Let me ask you this: what do you think are the possible worlds where Hu Tao faked her reaction?

Timmer doesn't answer this, in his next post he drops the argument with Gamma and makes a very

surface level push (bolded)

and votes me

I believe Hu Tao's claim and I think the people voting for her should probably find something else to do today

I believe in the standard concept that if someone claims a PR, especially a common one, and no one counterclaims them, that you don't lim then.

Which brings me to this:

I feel like
1. If Hu Tao's claim is real, it's not that helpful of a role right now because we're so early in. It would very hard to correctly guess the NK this early in the game, so even if it's real, scum might just leave them be anyways in hopes they'll get mislimmed before scum want to spend a NK on them
2. Could just be a fake claim because they have a useful scum PR
3. Could just be a fake claim from a goon to try to avoid dying/get value before dying

I feel like if we ignore the claim and lim Hu Tao anyways we would gain a lot more than we stand to lose if they are town. Like risk-reward is in favor of limming Hu Tao.

I've never seen a post like this.

#1 contains both the nugget that a Town Doctor isn't important and suggests that it would be ok to mislim them because hey mafia would likely let them live to get mislimmed later. How is that town?

VOTE: Kyouko

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Hmm. That slot mentions/quotes Timmer exactly one time and it's CSF that does it, and her little blurb on Timmer looks somewhat similar to the one on she made on

Gamma

, with the spoilered quotes and the original scumlean for the quoted posts - like TMIing here

Spoiler:

I'm at page 11

Gamma Emerald - lean scum

Spoiler:

I claim miller

Same

jfc

Strange reaction

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

haven’t felt a need to move it
VOTE: KawaiiKame
They pinged me somewhat with how they unvoted kyouko, not strongly though

I feel like forgetting your vote is +scum and this reads a bit hedge-y

Random Nurse
Celebloki
Naerys-

For now my first impressions are that dave and both millers could be town.
Still too far from finding a scum, but its a start.

Was it just for the question he asked or was there more to it?

davesaz
Hu Tao - town

Spoiler: I townread all of these quotes

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

So scum will not target me and I can last till end game. I believe in myself to find scum as long as I'm alive long enough. Now I just need to be towny enough to not be voted out. I've eliminated half of the work.

I think Hu Tao was just joking with the VT claim

Nope. I'm VT

Timmer feels town so far

The "I'm terrible at D1" feels more like a townie trying to explain why he doesn't have many reads as opposed to Mafia worried about their optics

They seem curious but scum can also be curious so I'm not giving them that easy of a town read so far.

Elements is a champion baffler for sure.

I'm not inclined to vote for the millers. I think I agree with Gamma's take.

Not sure why but this post gives me scum pings. I wish I could tell you why

I belive Dunn and ssbm's claim. Unless the small chance they are scum together or scum informed of miller's in this game. Either way, I wouldn't want them today at the very least. If there are actual millers, there is likely a way to confirm that somehow regardless.

Broccoli Quest 2
Guillotina
Cat Scratch Fever
Keyleth
Dunnstral - I was inclined to believe the miller claim out of the gate but kind of hate his posting (sorry). I dunno
KawaiiKame - town
ssbm_Kyouko - town
TimmerRC - early posts spoilered below kinda pinged scum but then 111 was good

Spoiler:

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

It's been awhile, remind me why voting millers is the best option?

Elements - town for having zero filter and just livetweeting every thought she has into the void
Andresvmb
Black

Also then look at CSF's next post - she quotes a few people, and asks all of them except

Gamma

a pretty simple question, but she doesn't ask a question of Gamma. I think she quoted Gamma just to mix her in with some other townies for associations but since she knew Gamma was scum she didn't feel a need to give Gamma question because she doesn't need to convince Gamma she's solving.

The Guillo question is stoking the flames on what is probably 2 town (Guillo and I) arguing over a third townie (flipped town Celebloki).
The question for Black is very basic and Black is flipped town now. Actually these first 2 questions look like they're feeling out how much interest there would be in a wagon on me which should be +town for me from an outside pov
Then the question for Keyleth is also focused on Black/Me/Guillo - feels like CSF picked that little event as her one thing to "solve" around when catching up. The shade on Keyleth is notable as well. Probably worth checking how Keyleth reacts to that

Spoiler:

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

Well now I went and got egg all over my face. I will say I am genuinely excited to actually get to play a game with RN. I definitely was too snarky in that post, but I was just frustrated that it felt like this was another game he was going to replace out of.

Is that what you thought, that Kyo voted for the snark?

VOTE: Celebloki

Why did you vote for Celebloki here? I see later in 444, you said there was TMI - what was the part that was informed?

I think she could be scum and I wanted a wagon

What did you start disliking about Kyouko?

Outline some oh his best noobish posts please.

It’s really just the questions about scumteam size
They’re freaking standardized for Simple normal games atp, if these questions were genuine he should have gotten the memo by now. I know this game is complex but that changes nothing about how the simple guidelines established a baseline that’s set in stone.

I actually don't disagree about the question
But RN's alignment shouldn't be too hard to determine, so I guess I'm not too concerned about it yet

Sorry, a lot of these posts feel really lost on me as in I'm assuming a lot of it isn't really important to the game? At least, that's the easy way for me to handle what just happened.

was this referring to Black's vote on Guillotina or something else? I feel like you're in the game but not really in the thick of it, just kind of hanging in the background so to speak.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Dunn town, which also means andres town

Spoiler:

Lastly I think Gob lied about their reason for replacing out being that they were in too many games. Point being they joined a new game right after replacing out of this one and have posted nearly a hundred times on the site since then.

Yikes

This slot is fucked from the replacements and I don't want to try hard here,

especially since there was really shitty angle shooting about the reasons the previous player in my slot replaced out before I could even get a footing in this game.

I'm a Doctor, I have a modifier that's anti-town to claim and you'll see why when I get killed. That's why I'm hard pushing Hu Tao, and I would've done so even if the Rolecop hadn't checked her.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Random Nurse

- complicated role, probably real, but this is also likely to be the last scum after all the VTs have been confirmed as Vanilla by dave and his own role
Naerys - FN claim, tied to

Guillotina

davesaz - town by claim, spewed town by gob and CSF
Hu Tao - confirmed Vanilla, likely no goons left, spewed town by gob
Enchant - confirmed Vanilla, likely no goons left

BQ2

- green obviously, but unconfirmed and must be checked by RN/Dave

Guillotina

- I don't think role makes sense, 2-shot feels odd. At the same time seems to be spewed by gob/csf and maybe also Gamma, and I thought Gunsmith!Gamma

did

make sense so I could just be wrong. Possible distancer here.
Dunnstral - towny mctownface
ssbm_Kyouko - sweet angel baby

TimmerRC

- scummy mcscumbutt

Elements

- sus, dave/RN should look here
Andresvmb - FN claim, confirmed by towny mctownface himself, and he can also send a message to someone to confirm that part of his role as well. Could be like a scum Messenger with Dunn I guess but that seems highly unlikely. Possibly spewed town by gob.

I think there are also enough PRs claimed out there that I'm pretty safe toNight so I'm no longer feeling the need to slow things down. I think dave is at the most risk toNight so we should wait for his call on when to end the Day but I'm ready to vote Timmer


Also fixing 2605:

Organizing VTs from towniest to scummiest imo

Hu Tao (confirmed/spewed)
Enchant (confirmed)
BQ2
--null line--
Elements
Timmer

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Random Nurse

- complicated role, probably real, but this is also likely to be the last scum after all the VTs have been confirmed as Vanilla by dave and his own role

Adding on to this, even though this is one of the most suspect claims alongside Guillo's, if he is scum he has to help clear VTs or not kill dave who can clear VTs,

especially

if Timmer flips scum because scum are not multitasking so there will be no shenanigans around "oh I must have been blocked, that's why dave died and I didn't."

This is pretty crucial - finding a scum today sort of locks scum!RN into mechanically POEing himself if he's fakeclaimed here, unless he's exactly a Multitasking scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

and giving scum a multitasking role in a rolecop game with all these FNs seems imbalanced - on top of all the clears the rolecop could get, this would be a guilty - no way to explain why town has multitasking unless they have several roles

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Why did mafia go for the kill on Celebloki with a claimed Doctor and with Roden's alien role being dead. That is presumably the mafia's blocking power.

or strongman

Just rereading D3 - I didn't mention it I don't think, but I kinda juggernaut/strongman being the third PR with Alien/TA would also make some sense, just thought it was more likely there was another blocker of some kind like a jailkeeper or something

I don't think it's a good idea to discuss the identity of the doctor or even whether there is a doctor or not, as that can only help scum.

Moving on, I hated Keyleth's TR of CSF's post. The fact that CSF flipped scum makes me hate it even more TBH.

VOTE: Key- Enchant

STOP PEDITING ME

Which post of Keyleth's was this? I'm sure I could find it but I quoted this post while rereading

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'll be targeting Hu Tao.

Can you target davesaz instead in light of the newer developments?

Or at least commit to saying you'll target one of {Hu Tao, davesaz} so that if you're town you keep scum guessing a little and still leave info behind for town if you die?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like Andres Friendly neighbor is complex and Naerys is not

This is why if we get through the VTs via clears/lims without finding scum, Guillo is a prime suspect, just feels like that's not the case though.

Also with it being 1-shot, imagine this hypothetical situation:

Naerys gets run up to E-1 on D1 or D2 and claims - either fullclaims 1-shot or partially claims just as FN with no modifiers. Then Roden Aliens her and the next Day she says who she sent the message too and that person then says they didn't get a message. What do you think happens to Naerys here? If she partially claimed it looks really sus if she then says she's 1-shot and can't try again. It's still a sus slot if she fullclaimed 1-shot from the start in this situation, but also now scum is free to just let Naerys float along toward ELO while they use the Alien role to stop other clears from happening.

What I'm saying is, despite it not being a very complicated role from the modifiers, it's believable that 1-shot FN is balanced versus Complex Alien.

Maybe one of the other scum is a Backup Alien actually, that would make sense. Gives them insurance in case Roden dies early, still allowing them to interfere with a thoroughly stacked set of town PRs

[ssbm_Kyouko]

anyways VOTE: Timmer

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Spoiler: length

I'm just going to post everything I have so far, there are times where I was thinking dave should and shouldn't claim modifiers so you'll see sometimes I talk as if he should hide them and others I consider disloyal versus simple.

Black - Babysitter Hider
Celeb - Rolecop
Kawaii - VT

Hu Tao - VT
Elements - VT
Broccoli Quest 2 - VT
Enchant - VT
TimmerRC - VT

Dunnstral - Miller
ssbm_Kyouko - Miller
Andresvmb - Odd Night Messenger Even Night Friendly Neighbor
Naerys - 1-Shot Friendly Neighbor
Guillotina - 2-Shot Indecisive Doctor
Random Nurse - Macho Combined Bodyguard Disloyal Vigilante
davesaz - Simple/Disloyal (guessing modifier) Neighborizer

vs.

Gamma - Goon
Roden - Complex Alien

Guillo and RN are the most suspicious claims, but RNs claim is more valuable

RN bodyguards dave
dave checks Guillo or a VT

12 alive, 10-2
1 8-2
2 6-2
3 4-2
4 2-2

We get 3 mislims before MELO, 4 lims total
Could be scum are 1-1 or 2-0/0-2 between VTs/PRs.

Assuming there is scum in the VTs, if we lim there, scum would have to kill PRs, because killing a VT would leave 4 VTs and we have 4 mislims.
Let's look at the possibilty there are 2 scum in the PR claims - if we can establish this is not the case, it means there is at least one in the VTs and we can lim in there.
Dunnstral was not neighborized by Dann - Dann is probably either disloyal or simple, so I could see Dunn as just being town here.
Kyouko - I know I'm town but am otherwise unconfirmed by any PR results
Andres - if he's scum it means Dunnstral is too. Dunnstral is probably not scum which means by extension Andres's FN claim checks out and he's town. Andres can send a message to someone toNight to confirm that half of his role as well, and toMorrow night he'll also be able to confirm himself to someone else and that will entirely rule him out of being scum because there are only 2 left
Naerys - same thing as Andres, if she is scum it is with Guillo
Guillo - suspicious that the claim is 2-shot so it now can't be used to help out anymore. With Mafia having an Alien they could stop or kill an ungated Doc
RN - if he's town he can confirm townies every day he doesn't die, and if he's scum he still has to provide us with results in either the PRs or the VTs to narrow things down
Dave - has softed his role is either Simple or Disloyal and will be a prime target for NKs if he is town

It seems unlikely fmpov there are 2 scum amongst the PRs unless it's exactly {Guillo, Naerys} meaning there should be at least 1 in the VTs. Could also be {RN, Dunnstral} - Dunnstral is definitely capable of fabricating RN's claim for him

VTs:

Hu Tao
Elements
BQ2
Enchant - knowing dave's modifiers will shed light on whether this could really be a VT, I don't think there are any goons left. If we kill this and it flips scum PR we will know dave is disloyal but the way he says Enchant is a goon I lean toward simple meaning this is likely just a mislim given town's power level
Timmer

PRs:
Dunnstral - being confirmed/flipped would confirm andres
Kyouko - none
Andres - can send a message to confirm he is a messenger / is confirmed if Dunn is confirmed
Naerys - is confirmed if Guillo is confirmed
Guillo - can be pseudo-confirmed by dave regardless of his modifier, or confirmed if dave is disloyal - disloyal seems too strong for the setup though
RN - can confirm townies every day
Dave - able to confirm other PRs if simple

If we are left with Guillo/Naerys or Andres/Dunn after 3 mislims (6 alive), Dunn/Guillo should contain a scum (Guillo dies first if all 4 live)

All these role make Traffic Analyst very likely for mafia.
An Informed TA could give them the edge if they were informed about things like the existence of dave's role or the existence of FNs (this makes Guillo/Naerys suspect)
Could also see a Simple Alien or similar being able to fuck with the interactions with VTs.
I think Mafia either have 3 PRs, or one of andres/naerys/RN is lying due to "Friendly Neighbor" and "Vigilante" being town-only in normals, which means these are further ways for town to get clears
Probably Mafia have 3 PRs, the flipped Complex Alien, a Traffic Analyst (possibly informed), and something else that can interfere with clears like, idk, a disloyal/simple rolestopper or even a disloyal jailkeeper would look pretty towny to a rolecop, no?


Babysitter Hider is swingy and combined bodyguard disloyal vigilante can be swingy too I guess, can either kill himself or get clears, and given mafia had an alien he wouldn't be able to do anything once his role came out so it's not too imbalanced in town's favor in that respect.

I think Andres should send a message to dave as a way of checking if dave is being rolestopped or aliened, and RN should bodyguard dave. assuming NAR (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ormal_Game), even if andres is NKed, dave would get the message:

Killing doesn't stop the actions of the dead player. (Imagine that all kills happen at the end of the night, and everyone pulls the trigger simultaneously.) This means that kills generally do not affect other actions for the purpose of the Golden Rule.

Scum could risk blocking Andres but in this case dave's hood would go off and as long as he doesn't reveal his target or modifiers, scum will be incentivized to stop dave from getting clears/guilties / frame his targets

How is anyone getting blocked by mafia if their roleblocker (alien) died yesterday?

I think given 2 FNs, and Rolecop with 3 clears to be found between 2 millers and a vig, as well as the ability to find the FNs as town if they message the dead, or message scum that later get flipped, or get blocked, that a second interference PR from scum makes sense. Otherwise it feels like too much town power. Maybe no block can happen because one or more of the town PRs is lying, and a single Alien was balanced, but in that case I think the clears start pouring in

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Both scum don't have to be in the PRs for a PR to be scum - mechanically speaking, dave could be a scum Neighborizer, RN at this point could be anything, Guillo could be anything, Dunn and I individually could be any PR - when you consider that 2 scum are in PRs it opens up andres and Naerys to possibly be scum as well.

I think both the associatives and the individual play point to Timmer though. The last scum seems well positioned I think, and finding them is going to be a long haul.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

this game very much feels like it's happening

to

me

That's probably how scum feel rn

Are you scum?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: TimmerRC

This should be E-2 if I kept track right earlier and I'm remembering correctly now

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also don't see Timmer coming in to stop this from happening, I think we just need to give dave and RN time to post anything they have on their minds in case

something happens

toNight

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I also don't see Timmer coming in to stop this from happening, I think we just need to give dave and RN time to post anything they have on their minds in case

something happens

toNight

Was it just a typo capitalizing that "N" in tonight?

No, I capitalize when I'm talking about phases (toNight, toMorrow, yesterDay, last Night, etc.) and leave it uncapitalized when I'm talking about irl times.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

With you moving your vote Broccoli, Timmer should be E-2 right now. I think I have a good case for scum!Timmer, and I think it feels easy because scum are getting cornered. They're down by 2 and we have at least 1 FN, probably 2.

Enchant also would have felt "easy", as does Elements. I think the massclaim narrowed it down a lot

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@Broccoli - I summarized my Timmer case before, and after summarizing it added some analysis of associatives with Roden/gob/CSF slot.

Summary of why it's Timmer:
1. Fake townslips

Spoiler:

[youtube][/youtube]

I was just wondering how they would be summoned from a pt unless they were already on the site and probably following along

What's a pt?

What did Celeb soft claim? How did I miss that

private topic. getting a little obvious with the townslips bucko

2. Subjectively, one might say 2102 is in very bad faith. Others might disagree, idk. I gave him the benefit of the doubt in 2106. Not so sure now.

Spoiler:

Dave gob keyleth timmer elements andres.

I think is where I want to be today. Black seemed to be a proponent of leaving Hu Tao alive, maybe this is part of why she was killed.

Celebloki is off the list today because I can see him maybe making a poor targeting decision as town. I liked a point someone brought up about rolecopping the millers. Something like "that's the easiest way to let scum get away with a fake claim". I do think that town!Hu Tao is exactly who a scum!Rolecop would target and for that reason I dont want him to have the easy out of confirming miller claims

I also have not examined Andres' post where he has a lot of post numbers with notes in a spoiler. It could be upon reading that closely I don't want to lim him toDay.

I don't understand this post. You like the point about how claiming to plan to check the millers is an easy out for a scum, AND you think it makes sense for a scum cop to have checked Hu Tao, AND you don't want him to have the easy out of confirming millers, and yet... Celeb is off of your vote list today? And I am on your list, even though I'm the one who made the point that you say you liked, and which it seems is heavily informing your view of Celeb?

Am I misunderstanding, you seem to be contradicting yourself within the span of a single post.

You're partly misunderstanding and partly making assumptions:

Clarifying the misunderstanding - it makes sense for scum rolecop to target Hu Tao last Night specifically. It would be an easy out to let Celebloki check Dunn and I (the Miller claims) moving forward on Nights 2 and on, as scum!Celebloki can just check other targets and say he checked us and that we are Millers.

Celeb is off my list toDay because if he is town he should be given a chance to make a not pro-scum choice with his target toNight.

You assume because it was you that pointed out that targeting millers is an easy out for scum rolecops, that I would clear you from POE. I'm not sure what gives you this idea, but it doesn't clear you in my eyes. Additionally, as I stated in the post originally, I didn't remember who made the post, I just remembered reading it.

3. Timmer discredits meta as a whole when it comes to my meta case on Gamma, and at the same time asks if anyone has meta on me that indicates I'm town from the effort put into reading old Gamma games. Not long before this, Timmer uses something that is similar to if not the same as meta (and even worse, it's meta on another player he equates with Keyleth) to justify town!Keyleth. Seems like he's willing to use meta except when it means Gamma is scum.

Spoiler:

Reread some of the end of the day, looking for the Gamma wagon - thoughts:

I feel like Gamma often gets accused of being worried about optics

I saw this in response to some of KawaiiKame's last words. Not great considering Gamma flipped scum. Not really damning evidence here, Elements could say this as town or scum, but it feels worth noting.

Timmer had a bit of a strange end of day. It felt like he was in and out at unusual timings but I think actually what happened was Gamma's claim happened while he was offline.

Pediting my own post: Yeah upon putting all these together and checking timestamps/when Gamma posted her claim, I'm no longer convinced it was a weird end of the day. The progression feels normal, but I will point out a couple of strange individual posts. At first I thought Timmer skated around voting for Gamma but that's not it.

Just did an iso of Keyleth. I don't see anything scummy, they remind of a player from years ago named Juliets' Coffee who posted in the same polite middle ground style. I won't oppose a lim there if that's where we're going, but I'm not really supportive. I'd rather see Celeb or Kyouko, or even Gamma limmed ahead of them personally.

If Timmer is scum this is a bold post given the Gamma flip. If he's scum it would not be with Celeb or I, because why would you put 2 partners in a pool of 3 to be limmed before Keyleth here, regardless of Key's alignment?

I also feel like stating that Keyleth reminds you of another player and using that to indicate that the overall neutrality and lack of anything scummy in Keyleth's posts is kind of like, if not exactly the same thing, as using meta to support a read, which is relevant to the next post's commentary.

I don't really pay attention to any case based on what someone said in a game at some point in the past. A good player can use their meta to their advantage and fuck around with it. Past games and meta are useless imo. Show me shady things from THIS game, not something in last July.

That said, would rooting through past games be alignment indicative? Does that effort to find that old post make Kyouko lean more town?

Kinda weird post... He doesn't pay attention to my meta case on

Gamma

because he doesn't believe in meta being useful, but in the same post he's asking if anyone can confirm I have a town meta of putting effort into meta dives. Maybe this is feeling around if there's still a possibility I can be eliminated on D1 - his vote was on me at the time. Iirc I thought his vote on me looked towny but was also easily faked.

UNVOTE:

Any chance of an updated vc?

This feels like a weird time to unvote to me because his vote is currently on me. I don't see what unvoting me does at this point. I would get it if he was voting Hu Tao or Gamma. Maybe he's just resetting it for the VC but it feels like maybe he's forgotten who he's voting

Additionally, Guillo was pretty vocal in asking me for reasons from

this

game to SR Gamma, and dave was saying that what I'm reading in Gamma's posts is her personality and not distinguishable. Between Guillo, davesaz, and Timmer, there were a few people discrediting my Gamma case

All of these points against Timmer are pre-Roden flip. Haven't checked for those associations yet.

Very little interaction with Gamma, none with Roden/CSF/gob slot. I haven't checked how that slot interacts with Timmer yet, but that's less telling imo.

Spoiler: Timmer/Gamma interaction

Why was roleclaiming forebidden, wtf?????

It was a perfect flip of this style of mafia. All of the roles would be publicly known before the game started, but you could never hint at which you were. It was entirely through game play with zero night action results ever talked about.

Hu’s reaction “could be” false?

Here you must read 1064 then move to the interior of the quote block below to continue the converstation

Obviously I meant the thinking they were hammered part. Dude.

yeah and that’s why I find your word choice an issue. I don’t see how you are undecided on the legitimacy of the reaction, so it feels like manufactured leeway.

You don't believe it could have been a real reaction, to the point that anyone using a simple term to indicate that none of us know if it was or not is scummy to you?

That's not manufactured leeway that's me saying I've seen a lot of weird shit in mafia and I don't jump to assumptions very quickly because of it.

Just did an iso of Keyleth. I don't see anything scummy, they remind of a player from years ago named Juliets' Coffee who posted in the same polite middle ground style. I won't oppose a lim there if that's where we're going, but I'm not really supportive. I'd rather see Celeb or Kyouko, or even Gamma limmed ahead of them personally.

Obviously I meant the thinking they were hammered part. Dude.

yeah and that’s why I find your word choice an issue. I don’t see how you are undecided on the legitimacy of the reaction, so it feels like manufactured leeway.

You don't believe it could have been a real reaction, to the point that anyone using a simple term to indicate that none of us know if it was or not is scummy to you?

That's not manufactured leeway that's me saying I've seen a lot of weird shit in mafia and I don't jump to assumptions very quickly because of it.

Let me ask you this: what do you think are the possible worlds where Hu Tao faked her reaction?

Timmer doesn't answer this, in his next post he drops the argument with Gamma and makes a very

surface level push (bolded)

and votes me

I believe Hu Tao's claim and I think the people voting for her should probably find something else to do today

I believe in the standard concept that if someone claims a PR, especially a common one, and no one counterclaims them, that you don't lim then.

Which brings me to this:

I feel like
1. If Hu Tao's claim is real, it's not that helpful of a role right now because we're so early in. It would very hard to correctly guess the NK this early in the game, so even if it's real, scum might just leave them be anyways in hopes they'll get mislimmed before scum want to spend a NK on them
2. Could just be a fake claim because they have a useful scum PR
3. Could just be a fake claim from a goon to try to avoid dying/get value before dying

I feel like if we ignore the claim and lim Hu Tao anyways we would gain a lot more than we stand to lose if they are town. Like risk-reward is in favor of limming Hu Tao.

I've never seen a post like this.

#1 contains both the nugget that a Town Doctor isn't important and suggests that it would be ok to mislim them because hey mafia would likely let them live to get mislimmed later. How is that town?

VOTE: Kyouko

Hmm. That slot mentions/quotes Timmer exactly one time and it's CSF that does it, and her little blurb on Timmer looks somewhat similar to the one on she made on

Gamma

, with the spoilered quotes and the original scumlean for the quoted posts - like TMIing here

Spoiler:

I'm at page 11

Gamma Emerald - lean scum

Spoiler:

I claim miller

Same

jfc

Strange reaction

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

haven’t felt a need to move it
VOTE: KawaiiKame
They pinged me somewhat with how they unvoted kyouko, not strongly though

I feel like forgetting your vote is +scum and this reads a bit hedge-y

Random Nurse
Celebloki
Naerys-

For now my first impressions are that dave and both millers could be town.
Still too far from finding a scum, but its a start.

Was it just for the question he asked or was there more to it?

davesaz
Hu Tao - town

Spoiler: I townread all of these quotes

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

So scum will not target me and I can last till end game. I believe in myself to find scum as long as I'm alive long enough. Now I just need to be towny enough to not be voted out. I've eliminated half of the work.

I think Hu Tao was just joking with the VT claim

Nope. I'm VT

Timmer feels town so far

The "I'm terrible at D1" feels more like a townie trying to explain why he doesn't have many reads as opposed to Mafia worried about their optics

They seem curious but scum can also be curious so I'm not giving them that easy of a town read so far.

Elements is a champion baffler for sure.

I'm not inclined to vote for the millers. I think I agree with Gamma's take.

Not sure why but this post gives me scum pings. I wish I could tell you why

I belive Dunn and ssbm's claim. Unless the small chance they are scum together or scum informed of miller's in this game. Either way, I wouldn't want them today at the very least. If there are actual millers, there is likely a way to confirm that somehow regardless.

Broccoli Quest 2
Guillotina
Cat Scratch Fever
Keyleth
Dunnstral - I was inclined to believe the miller claim out of the gate but kind of hate his posting (sorry). I dunno
KawaiiKame - town
ssbm_Kyouko - town
TimmerRC - early posts spoilered below kinda pinged scum but then 111 was good

Spoiler:

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

It's been awhile, remind me why voting millers is the best option?

Elements - town for having zero filter and just livetweeting every thought she has into the void
Andresvmb
Black

Also then look at CSF's next post - she quotes a few people, and asks all of them except

Gamma

a pretty simple question, but she doesn't ask a question of Gamma. I think she quoted Gamma just to mix her in with some other townies for associations but since she knew Gamma was scum she didn't feel a need to give Gamma question because she doesn't need to convince Gamma she's solving.

The Guillo question is stoking the flames on what is probably 2 town (Guillo and I) arguing over a third townie (flipped town Celebloki).
The question for Black is very basic and Black is flipped town now. Actually these first 2 questions look like they're feeling out how much interest there would be in a wagon on me which should be +town for me from an outside pov
Then the question for Keyleth is also focused on Black/Me/Guillo - feels like CSF picked that little event as her one thing to "solve" around when catching up. The shade on Keyleth is notable as well. Probably worth checking how Keyleth reacts to that

Spoiler:

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

Well now I went and got egg all over my face. I will say I am genuinely excited to actually get to play a game with RN. I definitely was too snarky in that post, but I was just frustrated that it felt like this was another game he was going to replace out of.

Is that what you thought, that Kyo voted for the snark?

VOTE: Celebloki

Why did you vote for Celebloki here? I see later in 444, you said there was TMI - what was the part that was informed?

I think she could be scum and I wanted a wagon

What did you start disliking about Kyouko?

Outline some oh his best noobish posts please.

It’s really just the questions about scumteam size
They’re freaking standardized for Simple normal games atp, if these questions were genuine he should have gotten the memo by now. I know this game is complex but that changes nothing about how the simple guidelines established a baseline that’s set in stone.

I actually don't disagree about the question
But RN's alignment shouldn't be too hard to determine, so I guess I'm not too concerned about it yet

Sorry, a lot of these posts feel really lost on me as in I'm assuming a lot of it isn't really important to the game? At least, that's the easy way for me to handle what just happened.

was this referring to Black's vote on Guillotina or something else? I feel like you're in the game but not really in the thick of it, just kind of hanging in the background so to speak.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm reading it over again now and realized I failed to bold the "very surface level push" I refer to in the Gamma associatives post. This is what I meant to bold:

#1 contains both the nugget that a Town Doctor isn't important and suggests that it would be ok to mislim them because hey mafia would likely let them live to get mislimmed later. How is that town?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

There's also a CSF post you quoted (the last, spoilered one) which you implied relates to Timmer but with no payoff of how it relates

Oh I see, I just assumed all 3 of those posts I wuoted were about Timmer, but that 3rd post was me going through the gob/CSF/Roden ISO for associatives. The top half pertains to Timmer, and the point of the last spoilered post is not against Timmer, rather it is in favor of town!Guillotina, town!Me from an outside POV, and town!Enchant/Keyleth slot, assuming that the shade from CSF seems real and not faked for distance. As mentioned in that post, it looks to me like CSF asked real-looking questions of everyone except

Gamma

in 547, and the reason to quote Gamma was to mix her in with other Townies (Guillo, myself, Keyleth/Enchant)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

quoted*

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So why can't we go element's today? I'm very against Timmer vote now

I'm not opposed to Elements toDay but it would be really good to hit scum toDay because the last scum is not multitasking by default. I agree that Timmer's posts as he is getting wagoned up

look

like town posts, but ultimately I share Dunnstral's opinion they could be faked. Additionally, I think it's a good point Dunn makes that if Timmer is scum, he's already been faking townslips - it would not be a stretch to think he could pull off a convincing "lie down and take the mislim" faked town reaction.

If the last 2 scum are a VT claim and a PR claim, catching the 3rd scum toDay makes it hard for any scum that are currently fakeclaiming a PR (namely RN) to keep up with Nightkilling and proving their role is legit. Also if RN is not the 4th scum and there is only one left after toDay, they won't be able to do anything fancy like {Block RN and Kill Dave} to make town!RN look suspicious, because again, not multitasking. I've already pointed out that a Multitasking scum role in this setup would look so guilty to the town Rolecop so I don't think it's likely that on top of all the innos we have we'd get a guilty too - how do you explain Multitasking away as a town modifier?

What I'm saying is, if you or someone else can convince me it's Elements I'll switch, but so far I'm not convinced they've done anything they wouldn't do as either alignment.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also, seems Keyleth never answered CSF's question

Did you tell me already what you thought of 538

I don't remember answering a question from you about this post so probably not - if Keyleth never answered and they both remained active that could be a sign Keyleth doesn't get the same +town associatives

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Found the original thread:

Spoiler: long

Why did mafia go for the kill on Celebloki with a claimed Doctor and with Roden's alien role being dead. That is presumably the mafia's blocking power.

or strongman

Just rereading D3 - I didn't mention it I don't think, but I kinda juggernaut/strongman being the third PR with Alien/TA would also make some sense, just thought it was more likely there was another blocker of some kind like a jailkeeper or something

I don't think it's a good idea to discuss the identity of the doctor or even whether there is a doctor or not, as that can only help scum.

Moving on, I hated Keyleth's TR of CSF's post. The fact that CSF flipped scum makes me hate it even more TBH.

VOTE: Key- Enchant

STOP PEDITING ME

Which post of Keyleth's was this? I'm sure I could find it but I quoted this post while rereading

I'm at page 11

Gamma Emerald - lean scum

Spoiler:

I claim miller

Same

jfc

Strange reaction

Gamma you've still got your rvs vote on me, why?

haven’t felt a need to move it
VOTE: KawaiiKame
They pinged me somewhat with how they unvoted kyouko, not strongly though

I feel like forgetting your vote is +scum and this reads a bit hedge-y

Random Nurse
Celebloki
Naerys-

For now my first impressions are that dave and both millers could be town.
Still too far from finding a scum, but its a start.

Was it just for the question he asked or was there more to it?

davesaz
Hu Tao - town

Spoiler: I townread all of these quotes

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

So scum will not target me and I can last till end game. I believe in myself to find scum as long as I'm alive long enough. Now I just need to be towny enough to not be voted out. I've eliminated half of the work.

I think Hu Tao was just joking with the VT claim

Nope. I'm VT

Timmer feels town so far

The "I'm terrible at D1" feels more like a townie trying to explain why he doesn't have many reads as opposed to Mafia worried about their optics

They seem curious but scum can also be curious so I'm not giving them that easy of a town read so far.

Elements is a champion baffler for sure.

I'm not inclined to vote for the millers. I think I agree with Gamma's take.

Not sure why but this post gives me scum pings. I wish I could tell you why

I belive Dunn and ssbm's claim. Unless the small chance they are scum together or scum informed of miller's in this game. Either way, I wouldn't want them today at the very least. If there are actual millers, there is likely a way to confirm that somehow regardless.

Broccoli Quest 2
Guillotina
Cat Scratch Fever
Keyleth
Dunnstral - I was inclined to believe the miller claim out of the gate but kind of hate his posting (sorry). I dunno
KawaiiKame - town
ssbm_Kyouko - town
TimmerRC - early posts spoilered below kinda pinged scum but then 111 was good

Spoiler:

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

It's been awhile, remind me why voting millers is the best option?

Elements - town for having zero filter and just livetweeting every thought she has into the void
Andresvmb
Black

Sick CSF having a really good post can mean they get the day 1 pass because I would feel bad otherwise.

I thought that post by CSF was an obvscum post but I thought liking it was just ridiculous so I voted Key instead

Hmm...

I don't like Keyleth's ISO as I'm rereading. One of her top SRs was

Black

,

CSF

was in her top 3 after like 1 post by CSF, and when she added a 4th TR it was

Gamma

. Idk if I agree that CSF's 536 was obvscum, could have come from tired/lazy town imo, but I don't think it could have reasonably been interpreted as enough of a reason to put CSF into Key's top 3 TRs.

Here's the thing though, that would mean either:
-Enchant's a Goon and Dave's role is real
-Enchant and Dave are scum together (seems unlikely, seemed like Dave has had genuine suspicion on Keyleth and the millers that would explain his targeting decisions)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@mod, when you say the game is not multiball in the setup post, does multiball include 3rd parties? Are we guaranteed that this is a 2-faction game of Town vs. Mafia?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I'm starting to wonder like could the N1 double kill have been a 3p and we misinterpreted it - for example Roden Aliens <someone>, Black babysits/hides on <someone> (same person as Roden) - could be Black was killed by mafia and Gamma killed by SK

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Like a serial killer does not want a gunsmith walking around

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Okay I looked at Timmer's previous game and he said this.

Forgive my ignorance, what is AtE?

Appeal to Emotion

Ahh... I will work to tone it down, but I AM an emotional guy and I get quite passionate about things once I invest in them. this will be a fluff thing to say,

but a common tell years ago when I was bad was that I was unemotional because I struggled to fake it.

I highly doubt he would say what he said as scum. Also in this game he also asked a lot if questions. He's just a new player that's curious and plays emotional. I'm lock towning Timmer.

If you must, vote him over me but NEVER vote Timmer this game if you do. I'm willing to agree to this since others seem to scumread me anyway (even though there are multiple ways I'm never scum this game)

To me the bold reads as if he thinks he's fixed this problem - he's talking fully in past tense here as if he doesn't struggle with it anymore, is he not?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

SK would show up as vanilla if it didn't have any other roles - SK's kill is a factional ability, so it, like a Mafia Goon, would show up as "Vanilla" to a Vanilla Cop or a Rolecop. No kills last Night could mean Guillo is trueclaiming and SK tried to kill whoever he said he protected

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Guillotina, did you protect Celebloki?

No, it was impossible for me to protect Cele again.

Also. Full claim 2-shot Indecisive Doctor, i protected Celebloki on night 1 and

Broc

last night.

I also received a mod message that someone is town aligned, i will not disclose this info until they decide to claim.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Multiball probably includes third parties though so this is all probably pointless.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I will unvote for you while I look into Elements but I'm not going to vote there without a reason I find better than reasons to vote Timmer (at deadline I will vote Elements with you if Timmer isn't going to happen but this game has a long deadline for the holidays)

Has anyone cased them already? Last I can remember anything concrete of theirs is back on like page 5 when I asked them about their mixup with dave/dunn

UNVOTE:

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Bloop

VOTE: Elements

Care to elaborate?

VOTE: Elements

Is this based on the no answering of the question or something else?

VOTE: Elements
Let's listen to me today

or
we could not?

Anyone want to start a wagon?

VOTE: Duunstral
Voting the miller

If Dunn is a neighbour then I could see the miller claim coming from a traitor
But for now I think Dunn's town

I'm torn between trusting kyouko and voting Gamma and trusting Gamma and voting Keyleth

Someone help

I'm Tring Gamma so I say trust gamma

VOTE: roden

[ssbm_Kyouko]

oops I was trying to hit preview so I could read my quoted posts together

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I doubt there is a sk because babysitter can kill someone and the disloyal vig can kill someone, once (themselves)

So there could be 4 people dying on day 1 which seems silly

This assumes RN is town though

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Sorry to requote all this, I'll spoiler it this time:

Spoiler:

Bloop

VOTE: Elements

Care to elaborate?

VOTE: Elements

Is this based on the no answering of the question or something else?

VOTE: Elements
Let's listen to me today

or
we could not?

These first 3 above were just me looking at how Elements reacts to being voted - only did this with ctrl+f for "Vote: e" though so any unquoted reactions won't be here. Just wanted to compare how they reacted to others voting them with how they reacted to Gamma, and also check other games of theirs to see how they normally act when voted. I do feel like they have a pattern of reacting quickly to votes against them and they do the same with Gamma in like 22 I think it was. It is an interesting point Hu Tao has though, in 214. That Elements could be hyper-aware of Gamma because they're teamed and that's why they brought Gamma's vote to attention so much later.

Anyone want to start a wagon?

VOTE: Duunstral
Voting the miller

If Dunn is a neighbour then I could see the miller claim coming from a traitor
But for now I think Dunn's town

Interestingly, Elements is the first to bring up a neighborhood - maybe scum with a TA who is reading into what PRs town might have? This is on page 2 so it looks pretty sus to me given how the setup turned out after claims

I'm torn between trusting kyouko and voting Gamma and trusting Gamma and voting Keyleth

Someone help

I'm Tring Gamma so I say trust gamma

I think before this that Elements was SRing Black as well so this feels weird

VOTE: roden

And I think this is the first post in the game Elements votes for scum, unless you count their self-votes as scum votes

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not on you necessarily, but interestingly enough it's piqued my scumdar on Gamma. I guess what it does for you is confirms you're still in your NAI range fmpov.

Need more time to think on this though, I'm rushing to phone post. Bbl.

How exactly?

I feel like you like to be "around" but not "driving" when you're scum, not that you often "drive" as town either, but when Dunnstral and you started pressing on Elements about 39 and 40 it felt like that - that is to say, being "around" without "driving". It's a vibe at this point.

I feel like if I can gutread Gamma on page 8 or so it's possible HT gutread Elements correctly on page 9. And you might think Gamma jumping onto Elements when a little pressure arises could mean they're not partnered but I think Gamma likes to do stuff like this as scum to throw off associations on purpose, it's also so low risk this early in the game. Practically RVS still so nobody would bat an eye if Gamma left the wagon and Elements ended up flipping red.

Sure, I'll vote Elements, I've talked myself into it
VOTE: Elements

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I doubt there is a sk because babysitter can kill someone and the disloyal vig can kill someone, once (themselves)

So there could be 4 people dying on day 1 which seems silly

This assumes RN is town though

Before the claim I pointed to RN interactions with Gamma not looking aligned in my post 2345

Makes sense as long as RN isn't the SK, and I don't think he makes his claim as SK - if he's not mafia, mafia are going to be gunning for him most likely. At first when I thought there could be an SK I thought it would be RN, but a few minutes later I realized his claim is a deathwish if it's fake.

So yeah SK would probably not make sense, and probably the mod will confirm its existence is precluded by the "not multiball" guarantee anyways

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I very much dislike all the posts where someone is saying "x is spewed by gamma"
seems like a very good way to lose

@Kyouko, check my notes. I think there’s a lot of associations between Elements and Gamma.

What do you make of Guillotina's reasoning about me and Gamma not being red team together?

Hmm

[ssbm_Kyouko]

It is a headscratcher when I see you dislike "x is spewed by gamma" and then ask about Gamma associatives 2 ISO posts later

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I feel like...
It's not

[ssbm_Kyouko]

So if I target Hu Tao and she is Scum, but Mafia target me for the NK, would there still be only one NK and the risk of Hu Tao looking cleared?

Assuming nothing else happens, only you would die, but Hu Tao wouldnt be cleared by your role - your role can clear your target it you survive the night, assuming you weren't blocked. Which is why claiming your target ahead of time is bad if scum have another blocker. They can frame your target as clear if you announce you're targeting scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also they can kill you if you announce your target and it's WIFOM to guess if they killed you to frame your announced target or to protect themselves

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Oh shit

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Andre's could PM RN's

next

target (not toNight's target) to him toNight and if both live RN can confirm he will target that player without revealing the identity

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Nah that's dumb nm

[ssbm_Kyouko]

PM Guillo for the cross-clearance imo

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I dont think anyone needs to be leashed, but I do think it makes the most sense for Andres to send some kind of message tonight to anyone besides Dave, RN, and Dunn so that half of his role is confirmed by someone who is both (alive toMorrow) and (not Dunn) - because Dunn confirmed the FN part and with 2 scum alive technically those 2 can be teamed. If Andres gets a message out elsewhere it makes his claim more legitimate

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Nurse shpuld definitely choose just one person in case they die.

If nurse dies it means nothing about his target

unless there are 2 kills

, and there are only 2 kills if he targets mafia

and

mafia targets someone else.

So if he claims he's going to target scum, he'll get shot and there will be one NK. If he claims he's going to target town, he might get left alone, or he might get shot to prevent him from adding clears.

So claiming his target ahead of time is useless unless there are 2 kills, and mafia will never let 2 kills happen if he's going to target mafia, which means claiming his target ahead of time is ultimately useless

[ssbm_Kyouko]

mine

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: elements

E-2 (Andres, Hu Tao, Kyouko, Elements, Dunn)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

RN should not confirm his target. I've explained multiple times why it is pointless to claim it beforehand.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Elements is already hammered I think

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: Elements

this was hammer pretty sure

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Vote Count 3.4

Elements

(E-2): Andresvmb, Hu Tao, ssbm_Kyouko, Dunnstral, Naerys,

TimmerRC

(E-4): Guillotina, Enchant, Broccoli Quest 2,

Enchant

(E-6): TimmerRC,

Hu Tao

(E-7):

Naerys

(E-7):

Broccoli Quest 2

(E-7):

Andresvmb

(E-7):

Dunnstral

(E-7):

ssbm_Kyouko

(E-7):

davesaz

(E-7):

Guillotina

(E-7):

Random Nurse

(E-7):

Not Voting

: Random Nurse, davesaz, Elements

With 12 alive it takes 7 to eject a player from the Game.

Deadline is (expired on 2024-01-02 14:00:00).

Mod Notes: Due to Christmas and New Years, the deadline is extended. I will be a little more lenient on prods over this period, but please let me know if you plan to be V/LA due to the holidays so that you don't accidentally get replaced.

i'll VOTE: elements to help get to the next day.

VOTE: Elements

Yeah, last VC they were E-2, then Timmer voted (E-1) and Elements voted (hammer)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If Elements flips town, checking on-wagon is good, and if scum - off-wagon is good. I don't think there was bussing involved if Elements is scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

RN is combined bodyguard disloyal vig, meaning if he targets scum, he both vigs and bodyguards them, resulting in his own death, so we don't "see it in the night results".

If he announces he is targeting scum, scum can kill him or no-kill and it will look the same in the Morning as it would if he announced he was targeting town and scum decided to kill RN.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

I think dave, you are misunderstanding how RN's role works, and maybe others are as well if there is confusion around why it is wrong for him to announce his target.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

breakdown of RN role mechanics - it should be plain there is no scenario where it is beneficial for RN to claim his target. Note that not claiming the target can lead to 2 kills at Night, where we don't know which scum RN targeted, but this is an acceptable risk imo, because we are currently on Evens and an extra death will result in odd numbers which will be desirable for ELO if we make it that far. Also in the situation where there are 2 kills versus 1 kill - it's either just RN dying or RN and another townie dying. There is no "saving" RN from the kill because he dies either way. Arguably we can save an obvtown from the NK for one Night if RN announces his target and he's announced a scum player - but likely RN dies toNight if town anyways imo, so his claim has already "saved" an obvtown for a night.

scum!RN: as claimed, scum!RN must provide us with one clear every Day. He cannot claim to have targeted the player that died in the Night to avoid clearing living players, because his role is protective, so let's say I die toNight. He can't claim he targeted me because he would have bodyguarded me and he would have died instead. There is an argument to be made that he could have been blocked and the other scum killed me in this situation, which is why it was critical to hit scum toDay. Hoping we did for this reason.

town!RN:
Scenario 1: Targets scum - RN fires a Vigilante shot at his target and bodyguards them. Assuming no interference, RN is killed by his own vigilante bullet.
Announced Target: We have no way of knowing if RN was killed by his own vigilante bullet or the scum's factional kill, assuming there are not 2 kills. If RN announces his target and we have 2 kills, scum has willingly guiltied themselves by not shooting RN - I would not bank on this.
Unannounced target: RN dies and we don't know who was targeted. This could lead to 2 NKs if scum opt not to shoot RN.

Scenario 2: Targets Town - RN bodyguards the player he targets. If both are alive in the morning, assuming no interference, the targeted player is cleared in the morning. If RN is NKed by scum, it is indistinguishable from if he chose to target scum
Announced target: If RN is NKed by scum to prevent him providing clears, it is indistinguishable from if RN chose to target scum
Unannounced target: If RN is NKed by scum to prevent him providing clears, it is indistinguishable from if RN chose to target scum

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also RN is not lying about his role so please stop implying he is

Eh, it just feels like kinda overpowered role so i am having a hard time to believe that

Nurse always has OP roles as town.

Also it's not that OP? It's a 1-guity cop except you can't be sure the clears are real clears (roleblock) and scum can force a no-result at any time after he claims unless there's a doctor that can save him (there isn't).

Actually it's pretty weak.

it's actually a zero guilty cop unless he can find a way to crumb his night action without announcing it - dave can't even neighborize him to allow the targets to be privately mentioned in the hood, because Dave is simple. If anything, Guillo having a protective role at all is what *doesn't fit* with dave and RN's claims - they are somewhat complicated roles that are balanced with each other to not give the town more guilty-power. Guillo's role would allow RN to get a guilty.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

because if he ever announces a scum target, he can just get NKed and there's no way to know if his target was actually scum or just town getting framed

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also RN is not lying about his role so please stop implying he is

Eh, it just feels like kinda overpowered role so i am having a hard time to believe that

Nurse always has OP roles as town.

Also it's not that OP? It's a 1-guity cop except you can't be sure the clears are real clears (roleblock) and scum can force a no-result at any time after he claims unless there's a doctor that can save him (there isn't).

Actually it's pretty weak.

if he didnt have that bodyguard thing on himself he´d be pretty insanely powerful, i suppose the fact that killing scum can kill him balances that

He doesn't kill scum though - he kills himself if he targets scum. The only way he could kill scum is if one was Macho

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also RN is not lying about his role so please stop implying he is

Eh, it just feels like kinda overpowered role so i am having a hard time to believe that

Nurse always has OP roles as town.

Also it's not that OP? It's a 1-guity cop except you can't be sure the clears are real clears (roleblock) and scum can force a no-result at any time after he claims unless there's a doctor that can save him (there isn't).

Actually it's pretty weak.

it's actually a zero guilty cop unless he can find a way to crumb his night action without announcing it - dave can't even neighborize him to allow the targets to be privately mentioned in the hood, because Dave is simple. If anything, Guillo having a protective role at all is what *doesn't fit* with dave and RN's claims - they are somewhat complicated roles that are balanced with each other to not give the town more guilty-power. Guillo's role would allow RN to get a guilty.

This post is scummy, maybe RN should check you.

Maybe he should, I'm not cleared. I'm not opposed to it if Elements flips town. If scum though I think checking you is decent here, though I'd prefer he checks a VT claim, like Enchant/BQ2 in that scenario

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also RN is not lying about his role so please stop implying he is

Eh, it just feels like kinda overpowered role so i am having a hard time to believe that

Nurse always has OP roles as town.

Also it's not that OP? It's a 1-guity cop except you can't be sure the clears are real clears (roleblock) and scum can force a no-result at any time after he claims unless there's a doctor that can save him (there isn't).

Actually it's pretty weak.

it's actually a zero guilty cop unless he can find a way to crumb his night action without announcing it - dave can't even neighborize him to allow the targets to be privately mentioned in the hood, because Dave is simple. If anything, Guillo having a protective role at all is what *doesn't fit* with dave and RN's claims - they are somewhat complicated roles that are balanced with each other to not give the town more guilty-power. Guillo's role would allow RN to get a guilty.

This post is scummy, maybe RN should check you.

Maybe he should, I'm not cleared. I'm not opposed to it if Elements flips town. If scum though I think checking you is decent here, though I'd prefer he checks a VT claim, like Enchant/BQ2 in that scenario

Why are you associating me with Elements?

position on/off wagon. It's not specific to you, as I already said, I think RN should target the wagon if this is a mislim and target off wagon if this is a scum lim, because I don't think Elements is getting bussed.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

BQ2, confirm you're in a hood with dave and enchant?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Said it before and I'll say it again, Dunn claimed Miller first because he checked the game thread first. I'm not scum for not being faster than Dunn to check the thread.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Did anyone receive Andres' message?

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Was it already revealed that Andres was a FN? If so I can completely understand Scum targeting that slot. If not I would be curious to know how they knew. And apparently there's a second FN too and that should remain a secret.

In that case with the known FN out of the way I'm fairly confident I'll be targeted next due to the PR.

Yes, Andre's targeted Dunn. He was supposed to send a Messenger message toNight to someone other than Dunn.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Did anyone receive Andres' message?

This is important, everyone please confirm whether or not they got his message.

I did not receive a message.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

3000

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Not everyone has posted since I highlighted its importance.

Waiting confirmation from
Guillo
Enchant
Dunnstral
BQ2

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If Andres didn't send mail because forgot, i choke from laugh.

I take it this means you did not get the message either

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If Andres didn't send mail because forgot, i choke from laugh.

He died. Unless the night order of operations is different here, communications happen after kills everywhere I play.

I'll take this as you didnt receive the message either - shooting happens last, so message would be sent, meaning he either forgot or he sent it to scum who decided not to say they got the message.

Scum are not multitasking by default, so if andres did not forget to send his message, and a kill happened, it means at most one scum was free to act.

Andres died which means he was not the target of an aliening from a backup alien/universal backup, which means whoever he tried to message is the one that got aliened, or he messaged scum that is not announcing. We know this was not dave or BQ2 because of the hood.

Most likely if there is an alien they would have targeted town!RN, going to check if andres indicated who he might target, my guess is the lack of a message points to one of {targeted scum, target was aliened}

[ssbm_Kyouko]

If Andres didn't send mail because forgot, i choke from laugh.

He died. Unless the night order of operations is different here, communications happen after kills everywhere I play.

I'll take this as you didnt receive the message either - shooting happens last, so message would be sent, meaning he either forgot or he sent it to scum who decided not to say they got the message.

Scum are not multitasking by default, so if andres did not forget to send his message, and a kill happened, it means at most one scum was free to act.

Andres died which means he was not the target of an aliening from a backup alien/universal backup, which means whoever he tried to message is the one that got aliened, or he messaged scum that is not announcing. We know this was not dave or BQ2 because of the hood.

Most likely if there is an alien they would have targeted town!RN, going to check if andres indicated who he might target, my guess is the lack of a message points to one of {targeted scum, target was aliened}

Why are you even assuming Alien? Could be roleblocker or rolestopper.

I think alien, specifically a backup, combats town power nicely - it stops actions like rolecop and FN from either side, like alien targeting a Miller to stop them being cleared by an investigative. If they had a blocker/stopper, they would be able to interfere a lot every night from the get-go. A backup role reduces the stinginess of mafia's power, hence an Alien.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Swinginess*

[ssbm_Kyouko]

VOTE: Guillotina

I think this roleclaim makes the least sense with the rest of the claims, and Enchant makes a very good point about him CCing Roden but not CCing Hu Tao

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Also how likely is it really that vanilla Hu Tao fakeclaims Guillo's exact modifiers? Complex Indecisive, minus the 2-shot? If I were in town!Guillo's shoes I would think Hu Tao's claim must be coming from an Informed role

[ssbm_Kyouko]

UNVOTE:
I don't think there's any real danger of him getting voted out before I can fully evaluate on my desktop, but I feel like I should just avoid voting from my phone in a game as long as this.

I know I want Guillo dead because his claim doesn't make sense to me, and I think Enchant makes a good point about him CCing Roden but not Hu Tao, and I feel like I'm constantly having paranoia around this slot, but I really don't know shit about the setup and I need to stop talking myself into knowing what's going on with the setup and focus on the actual play. If I'd done that D1 we might have limmed Gamma (probably not, but a girl can dream)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

@mod - can you confirm that any "Neighborizer" (with no other roles/modifiers) in this game would work in the way described on the Mafia wiki under normal guidelines? Specifically, the wiki states "private topic" (as opposed to "private topic(s)" or similar) in the sample role PM.

[ssbm_Kyouko]

In Complex mini 2314, scum neighborizer marcistar had one neighborhood but only got to make one action - still looking for other neighborizers in complexes. Based on Alisae's interpretation of the role (e copied the sample PM from the wiki), the neighborizer only got one hood for the whole game (question was asked by JV in pre-game in the Mafia PT here: viewtopic.php?t=91779)

[ssbm_Kyouko]

Here is another Normal with a neighborizer from before the simple/complex split - link is to camelCasedSnivy's neighborhood: viewtopic.php?p=13911572#p13911572