Open 887: Coalition of Frogs (Game Over)

[Aristeia]

HEAL: Datisi

I can't say no to that

[Aristeia]

VOTE: Ari for succumbing to Datisi's charms so easily

Do we have to vote all 5 people at once?

I am helpless to his charms tbh

[Aristeia]

mala either town or mafia with exactly Datisi which would be a tragedy

[Aristeia]

Merlyn probably town

[Aristeia]

maybe hero @ heart is mafia ? no strong feelings there.

[Aristeia]

there's nothing more to it

[Aristeia]

doc, bella, datisi all ping town to me so far

Why datisi
I’m opposite of that

i don't think scum mala ever does this unless to distance

[Aristeia]

after those two recent games i played with ari finished, every single post i read from her is *radio static sound* because i learned i do not know how to read her at all. can i still blame skitter for it? anyway

doc, bella, datisi all ping town to me so far

Why datisi
I’m opposite of that

i don't think scum mala ever does this unless to distance

can you talk more about this? i don't see how you're getting to that

tragic

i guess its just how I feel mala plays when she's mafia?

questioning a townread on a townie just feels like something she doesnt do because the gain is low and it doesnt really move her win condition foward rlly

[Aristeia]

like why does scum mala see town datisi being townread and go

"hmm nah i think datisi is actually mafia fam"

like what does that get her if datisi is town?

[Aristeia]

like the last time we played coalition together - town!mala voiced suspicion of me/datisi and it didn't really get her anywhere? most of us just kind of ignored her suspicion and she ended up having a lower voice in the game as a result of that even though she was right about Datisi.

I don't really see why scum!mala sees town!datisi getting townread and thinks "hmm I should replicate what I did last time" because the results last time kind of sucked ? even though she was right, she was ignored and Datisi got into coalition and she didn't and nobody really listened to her.

but I do see why town!mala would see Datisi being townread and feel the same way she did last time and express a scumread.

[Aristeia]

what do you mean?

[Aristeia]

unfortunate - i was actually thinking THS and hero make a cute scum team together

[Aristeia]

fwiw i think you are p good at this game implo <3


my page three takes are seldom right and i doubt i am right here

[Aristeia]

i thought your opening posts were kind of empty and your post explaining mech to bella felt like a scumpost in that scum like to post helpful answers for townies because its something they can do that's truthful and establish rapport. your focus on bella felt kinda pockety.

I don't really have a read on THS, he felt kind of bland in his opening but the thing that made me think you could be teamed with him was

if THS is scum, partner is probably ari or kitten.

which feels like you're kind of preflipping his as scum and lining up the next two lims afterwards

[Aristeia]

cool lol

i might as well:

HEAL: Datisi, Hero, Bella, Merlyn

Drew do you want in?

I don't really think you have this many townreads already and the reach out to drew feels ?

[Aristeia]

would actually not mind winning this game on page 10 with an all town coalition.

this feels kinda lamist

[Aristeia]

I guess if you're like one specific person this might be townie for you but I don't really enjoy alt speculation so I am applying base rates

[Aristeia]

what do you mean?

i mean like, what you're saying about why scum-mala doesn't sus me on page 2 is all logically valid, but i don't think it's realistic to think she would've actually thought about all of that before making that post? especially as i don't think she's that kind of player

oh I don't think she did think of all of that. I think if she was mafia she would think of all of that and then not do it - but since she's town she didn't really think it out and just did what came naturally - which was sus you.

I'm not like sure she would think of all of that if she was mafia but I just don't think this line of play makes sense for her to do if she was mafia unless she's trying to create distance because what's the point of the play?

I don't think she would expect it to get her townread - it certainly didn't last time.
I don't think she would expect it to knock you out of the townreads - it didn't really work last time.

like you're saying she wouldn't think that far ahead and she'd just do it if she was mafia but like what would the point be?

[Aristeia]

yea i think your confidence is faked

[Aristeia]

i'll be honest, i saw that you made multiple posts and i kinda wanted to TR the effort and the fact that you are giving multiple reasons rather than one, but actually these reasons sounds reachy af.

this is such a bad line because you don't really explain which of the reasoning is actually reachy or invalid etc - its just saying oh i would townread you but alas you are reachy which is kind of ??

[Aristeia]

specifically, i didn't target bella at all, i just answered a question she had. you'd have to squint hard to read that as me focusing her, especially since that's probably my only interaction with her slot. and sure, scum *could* answer the question but are you saying that town would just ignore it? that's really ??? of you.

all three of your first three posts had something to do with bella and none of them really had any meaningful intent to sort her.

I'm not saying town would just ignore it, I said it's something scum are eager to do. I'm quite lazy and I rarely answer basic mech questions as town but I am more likely to as mafia because it establishes an interaction touchpoint.

[Aristeia]

second, do u have a problem with me being confident about my reads and feeling like we're awesome enough to win before page 10?

I said it was LAMIST because it feels like the kind of lamist mafia like to say in this format of games. you reframing it to "oh are you saying we're not awesome enough to win before page 10" is kind of ????

Personally I've never won coalition on page 10 and if you're town and you actually get us an early win I would be quite happy about that .

[Aristeia]

but please give me a reason to townread you and not just shittunneling me (no offense meant)

I don't think I am "shittunneling" you as you so eloquently put it.

I'm not very serious about this scumread, it's just a first impression from early in the game - the only reason I am even posting so much about it is because you asked me to.

[Aristeia]

weak townread because i still feel the amount of thoughts in reads + the energy is like, closer to her towngame than her scumgame

but you will notice she's not in my coalition right now, so. yeah

understandable, she is efforting more than in her scumgame which is also something i mentioned i wanted to tr earlier.

i guess i have no choice but to read her casing of kittens being town / scum with you

otherwise, still looking forward for her read on THS, who she said I could be teamed with twice.

i thought he sounded awkward on entrance and i didnt like the way you said he was teamed with either me or mala and voted him.

because if you like think its 2 scum in 3 the logical next step is to coalition 5 out of the other 6. here it felt more like you were lining up lims and it didnt make sense why you thought me/mala would be partners to him in the first place.

[Aristeia]

i dont think effort is a really useful tell for me and i dont think ive even really efforted much in this game. i am trying to be nicer and kinder this game

[Aristeia]

well if you want to play town mayor and win on page 10 i can sit back and sheep you if you are so confident

[Aristeia]

@ari, if you had to pick a coalition to form right now, what would it be?

maybe me you implo hero and bella

very much a 6am not very awake thought

[Aristeia]

ari, kittens, THS - what do you think of drew/implosion on page 7?

not much of anything tbh

aren't you supposed to be the confident one carrying us to the easy win

[Aristeia]

so how's the sorting going

[Aristeia]

carry me Datisi pls

[Aristeia]

I don't have to tr him to want him to carry me.

[Aristeia]

i'm just going to disengage from the line with Drew. although maybe i won't completely since hero says they want to see how it develops lol but I feel like it's almost certainly one of those things that is practically not going to be actually useful for sorting compared to how much it'd bog down the thread. I think it's probably very likely that Drew and I just sort of parse arguments in incompatible ways.

lol i didn't mean you have to continue i was just curious how it would go. i tr your disengagement though because i agree the discussion probably doesn't get us anywhere.

104, 139 are probably the best examples. In the context of the rest of his posting I think 142 also might even be town-indicative. Part of it is that he has a view/approach to the game he's espousing that feels consistent and like something he's thought about rather than just coming up with something, but the bigger part is the way he's handling suspicion on himself. There's a degree of assuredness in both of those posts that reads as genuine to me.

interesting because these posts

sound

townie but i thought they were not genuine at all - i'll get to this in my THS post (queued after my merlyn post).

Yeah I did miss that, it dampens how much I find that post town significantly.

makes sense

it's scummy that I don't have a set of reads by pg 6 (by page 6!?),

I don't think this is a fair characterization. It's not that you "don't have a set of reads", it's that you hadn't given any at all, in conjunction with you saying that you'd already been townspewing which, no, does not mean "posting literally anything as town".

I do agree there isn't much of a real rush. But I feel like there's been lots of quite useful content so far. I don't really agree with THS's take that scum are necessarily proactive in this setup; yeah, they need to get in the coalition, and actually the point could have some truth to it if people are playing in such a way that the scum

feel

rushed. But I think it's entirely possible for scum to play under the radar, especially if they think their scumbuddy is going to get in to the coalition.

i don't think this post is AI in a vacuum but i like it anyway.

i need to dig into merlyn's posts to fully make sense of your scumread on her (that's why i changed the order)

pedit: okay so who do you tr?

Mala implo & bella

[Aristeia]

@ari, if you had to pick a coalition to form right now, what would it be?

maybe me you implo hero and bella

very much a 6am not very awake thought

Mala implo & bella

?

well datisi doesn't townread mala so he doesn't want her in the coalition

I don't townread you or datisi but if datisi is town then he's probly right about you being town

and if the coalition fails I'll know who I want to vote

[Aristeia]

HEAL: Datisi, Hero, Merlyn, Bella, Implosion

[Aristeia]

I'd rather not, I have low expectations this coalition wins but I am ready to be surprised.

[Aristeia]

I'd rather not, I have low expectations this coalition wins but I am ready to be surprised.

Why put through this coalition if you think it has a high chance of failing?

because I can always just be wrong

[Aristeia]

@ari, if you had to pick a coalition to form right now, what would it be?

maybe me you implo hero and bella

very much a 6am not very awake thought

Mala implo & bella

?

well datisi doesn't townread mala so he doesn't want her in the coalition

I don't townread you or datisi but if datisi is town then he's probly right about you being town

and if the coalition fails I'll know who I want to vote

why are you sheeping datisi if you are so adamant you aren't townreading him? this really doesn't add up for me

also i have no idea what you mean with the last sentence - are you insinuating that if the coalition fails i'm scum for it?

just because I don't townread him doesn't mean I don't want to win with him if he's town.

if the coalition you are confident is all town fails then yea I would yeet you for it.

[Aristeia]

whether you're mafia or not for it I'm not as sure but I wouldn't be sure on anyone and you are as good a place to start as any.

[Aristeia]

But her not liking her coalition group is just bizarre. I don't know what to make of it tbh. Unless it is a bit of TMI, like she knows one of her buddies is in it.

well I don't particularly think anyone really cares about what I want the coalition to be so I don't particularly care about trying to force my opinions through.

[Aristeia]

I'd rather not, I have low expectations this coalition wins but I am ready to be surprised.

Why put through this coalition if you think it has a high chance of failing?

because I can always just be wrong

If you have low confidence, why not put yourself in it?

because i'll just get misyeeted when it fails

[Aristeia]

like you say you are confident that you will get us a very early win hero

and I personally do not believe you will or that you are town

so i'm happy to sheep you because if you're town and you get it passed and we win then I will win also and thats good

and if you're scum and you fail the coalition i will get to yeet you.

and if you're town and you fail the coalition well thats your own fault for being wrong and ridiculously confident that you could win with it.

[Aristeia]

that's my honest assessment of how the game is. I hope I am wrong

[Aristeia]

I do agree that numbers wise it just makes sense to put yourself forward for the coalition bc if you know you're town then you can only be wrong about 4 spots rather than 5. The only person who can really relax and not need to advocate for themselves here is a wolf who is pushing a partner in there. There's no point in being worried that it will make you a target later if the coalition fails, you're getting heat now anyway.

i have two completed games of coalition;

viewtopic.php?t=91245
viewtopic.php?t=89428

I am town in both

I suggested not being in coalition in both

I ended up in the coalition in both

I personally do not enjoy being in the coalition unless I'm absolutely certain my coalition is winning.

I am nowhere near that level of certainty at present and might never be.

Saying that I am mafia for not wanting to be in the coalition because all townies would want to be in the coalition and ascribing the only possible reason for someone not wanting to be in the coalition as "they are mafia who are pushing their partner in instead" is reductionist and absurd.

[Aristeia]

it's not a good reason

[Aristeia]

I don't really care about heat pre-coalition because it doesn't mean anything when we're not eliminating people and if people want to eliminate me after coaalition failure when i'm not even in the coalition then they can enjoy losing

[Aristeia]

This post kind of feels like an overreaction.

it feels like you've spent more time shading me and very little time trying to understand my perspective

[Aristeia]

yeah but you can win with him with a coalition you feel is more pure???

or like, if you think kittens is town over bella and you want to win with datisi, why not include kittens over bella?

i don't think kittens is townier than bella

[Aristeia]

can you explain the logic behind this?
like, why confidence = scum?
can town!me not be mistakenly confident?

no

if you want to say you will get it right then you should be accountable for your decisions rather than just be able to back out and say oops no I made a boo boo

[Aristeia]

what could i do to get you to see am town?

why does it even matter to you that I see you as town? you're already claiming that I'm mafia and pocketing you no?

[Aristeia]

also this is a question i had earlier and forgot about: imagine you were a daycop (which i don't think is even a real role but w/e), and you got a green check on me - how would you feel about this coalition? how confident would you be datisi is town in that situation?
if you got a green check on either me or datisi, what would be your preferred coalition?

this is a ridiculous hypothetical because we don't have a daycop but I will entertain it anyway.

I would not want to be in your coalition even if I had a daycop innocent on you.

[Aristeia]

This post kind of feels like an overreaction.

it feels like you've spent more time shading me and very little time trying to understand my perspective

I've only ever interacted with you once before this and it was to agree with you on something

I am speaking about our current interaction

[Aristeia]

I will make this as simple as possible for you Hero.

I do not believe you are town or that you will make a winning coalition if you were town in this current game state. I believe the odds to be quite low.

You scumread me - that is fine I am happy to be out of your coalition so that when it fails I do not get scapegoated.

I am offering to sheep you because you expressed that you are quite confident that you will make a winning coalition and win quite quickly.

I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong about everything that I currently think if your coalition succeeds and we win.

[Aristeia]

The only person who can really relax and not need to advocate for themselves here is a wolf who is pushing a partner in there.

[Aristeia]

Good think I didn't say that the was the only possible reason huh?

[Aristeia]

I think the implication in 274 is that the only reason I have for not advocating for myself is that I am a wolf who is trying to push my partner into the coalition.

when I explain I do this in previous runs of the game as town and say this is not a reasonable conjecture - you claim you didn't really even say it.

you just feel slimy here to me.

[Aristeia]

I also don't even know which partner you believe I'm pushing into the coalition as I've basically offered to sheep hero on whatever coalition he wants

[Aristeia]

I guess I should expand on what I mean because sometimes its difficult for people to understand me.

I do agree that numbers wise it just makes sense to put yourself forward for the coalition bc if you know you're town then you can only be wrong about 4 spots rather than 5. The only person who can really relax and not need to advocate for themselves here is a wolf who is pushing a partner in there.

^
the implication here is that Ari is mafia because she's not advocating for herself to be in the coalition.

I respond to you by showing you two games where I am town, playing coalition, and advocating for coalitions of people that do not include me and I also say that your claim that the only reason I'd be advocating for a coalition without me is that I'm mafia is reductionist and absurd.

you then shoot back at me that you didn't say it's the only reason - which is just technicality about the wording you used - the insinuation is quite clear.
you also claim its you explaining to me why folks might think I'm susp for not wanting to be in? which is ????? like instead of just saying that you are trying to shade me you're claiming its what other people think of me. which is quite a dodge.

finally you claim i'm overreacting to you claiming that the only reasonable explanation for my play this game is that I'm mafia. which is just more shade.

at no point did you actually read and try to understand my perspective or the games I cited as examples of my townplay in previous runs of coalition where I made the exact same play.

[Aristeia]

after those two recent games i played with ari finished, every single post i read from her is *radio static sound* because i learned i do not know how to read her at all. can i still blame skitter for it? anyway

doc, bella, datisi all ping town to me so far

Why datisi
I’m opposite of that

i don't think scum mala ever does this unless to distance

can you talk more about this? i don't see how you're getting to that

you mean answering datisi about mala is busywork?

[Aristeia]

i didnt follow up with you when you sr me because i thought it was reasonable for you as town to sr me. i think you're town. i dont really see the need to engage with you about your sr of me.

[Aristeia]

when you insinuate that I'm mafia with faulty reasoning and when I call that out you respond with "oh i'm not saying that, I'm just explaining why other people think you're scummy"

I think that's kind of slimy.

It's not a personal insult because mafia literally have to lie in order to win this game and looking for lies is literally what we have to do.

I am sorry you feel that I am insulting you and that my choice of words is unpleasant for you.

[Aristeia]

like ari, i feel it's slightly disingenuous for you to be willing to sheep a coalition you don't believe in, only so you can push me afterwards. but i don't think it's a scummy disingenuity, it's just really annoying kind of disingenuity, like you hate me for some reason which i don't get why.

sorry if this is considered inappropriate / personal / toxic / whatever

I don't understand how you can be confident your coalition will win and also be so hurt that I would be willing to punish you for failure.

The whole point of confidence is that you actually believe in your coalition winning.

That's why I said I found your confidence to feel very fake. Like you want to pretend you will be this person who will lead us to victory or whatever.

I hope I am wrong, that is why I am sheeping your coalition. Not because I want to lim you afterwards or be hostile towards you.

[Aristeia]

There's no reason to get this mad over a scumread.

I am not mad. I am explaining why I believe you're mafia.

That is part of the game.

[Aristeia]

I'm just gonna stop responding on this topic to you, I don't think we can see eye to eye on it

ok

[Aristeia]

i have literally explained that i am not confident like 2 posts above

hero my principal hangup with you is that your expression early game that we would win on page 10 with some winning coalition felt fake to me.

I do not believe town!you is actually confident you can win on page 10 or very easily - this game doesn't feel that easy to me.

people think I'm wrong and you're like townie. fine that's why i offered to sheep you. because if i'm wrong and you are actually going to lead us to a quick and easy win i dont see why i should stand in the way of that and if i'm right and you're mafia it will make it easier to lim you when your coalition fails.

if you're town and not actually confident then shrug I guess i'll do something else.

[Aristeia]

HURT: all

[Aristeia]

explain your 99% datisi is town read

[Aristeia]

Ari, you said in the other two games you played you didn't want to be in the coalition but wound up in it anyway - why was that? Did they have an arc of what's happening here -> people started townreading you for how you were acting around the coalition (or other stuff) -> people asked you to be in it?

both times the principal reason was because a scum player who was pretty townread decided to drag me in the losing coalition with them. They didn't explain why they did it - I imagine because they figured it would be easy to mis-elim me afterwards

[Aristeia]

explain your 99% datisi is town read

um

at first it was pure gut, like i felt his first post just couldn't come from scum. in retrospect i think there's literally zero reason to think that since it's a pretty easy post to fake but whatever.

anyway, the point is that as the game continued i didn't really anything to make me sus datisi at any point? like it might be just confbias, but i saw a lot of things i liked in his posts and nothing much that i didn't like. you know that when someone is town, they just can't help but towntell sometimes? like what merlyn claimed to have done, except with datisi he HAS been actually towntelling all game. i can't point you to a specific post because every post he makes is a towntell?

i hope this doesn't sound pockety as fuck lol
if this were trust fall i'd 100% trust datisi though like 7 pages ago.

pedit: uhhh i may or may not have no experience with scumtisi so please forgive me if my confidence on him is too high

i only know town!datisi

I'm sorry your 99% datisi is town read sounds extremely fake to me and considering i know who you are it just makes me suspect you even more

[Aristeia]

at first it was pure gut, like i felt his first post just couldn't come from scum. in retrospect i think there's literally zero reason to think that since it's a pretty easy post to fake but whatever.

hello can i be in the coalition please please please :3

HEAL: datisi

^ how is it that this post can't come from scum? do scum not want to be in the coalition?

[Aristeia]

you have no familiarity with Datisi's scum game but you're willing to lock him in as 99% town that just sounds ridiculous to me

[Aristeia]

and your reasoning is because he asked to be in the coalition in his first post and you don't think that comes from scum

like !?!?!??!

[Aristeia]

and instead of naming a single post that stood out to you, you claim every post he makes is a towntell

which is just more non answering

[Aristeia]

if you truly know who i am you should like think it makes perfect sense for me to tr datisi and also think it makes perfect sense for me to have sr'd you earlier

sure explain how it makes perfect sense then

[Aristeia]

if your reasoning is something like because Ari was mafia and Datisi was town in that game we played together then like I have no words

[Aristeia]

ok i will but later because i am actually tilted right now

sry about that

sorry about tilting you, I know I am quite insufferable sometimes.

[Aristeia]

and i can also give you 10 posts of datisi i thought were townie if you'd like

I just want one reason that makes sense I don't need 10 posts

[Aristeia]

@ari, why do you think I'm town?

because the way you scumread me for townreading you and not explaining it makes sense from a town!your perspective

[Aristeia]

if your reasoning is something like because Ari was mafia and Datisi was town in that game we played together then like I have no words

i missed that

it's not because you were mafia and he was town, it's because you were mafia and he was town and you are acting more or less the same.

anyway i guess you can go on having no words lol

I don't think I am acting remotely the same

[Aristeia]

basically i think that what happened with regard to you thinking that my tr if datisi is fake based on my identity is that you thought "well datisi was townread that game since he wasn't being super townie by the book, so since in this game he is being extra townie then you should think that's scum indicative for him, because in that other game where he was town he wasn't being so townie"

no, it's because your reasoning for townreading Datisi is nonexistent. When I ask you for a basis for your townread, you have to go back and look and figure out a reason to give me rather than remembering why you townread him.

It feels remarkably similar to how you treated skitter on d1 of that game we played together - as your townread of her was something you wanted to do because you thought it would work and it was something you decided would work.

The way I think scum!you makes townreads is you decide you want to townread a person and then you look for reasons to justify your townread - it's not organic.

[Aristeia]

also the way you exaggerate your certainty in him being town feels similar to how you treated his slot in the previous game we played together.

[Aristeia]

ok fine i'll townread you

HEAL: ari datisi hero implo bella

[Aristeia]

I'm posting less because I think me posting too much is suffocating for the game and enough people are already not posting

[Aristeia]

If anyone wants me to answer any questions feel free to @me

[Aristeia]

I don't really understand why Ari is just going along with a coalition that it seems like she thinks has decent odds of failing (given that she has expressed a townread on Hero but not on Datisi) after talking about how she's annoyed that she always gets put on failing coalitions as town.

I don't think hero is mafia trying to drag me into a losing coalition

I don't feel as strongly as he does that Datisi is town.

I don't think this needs to be final - most of the game is not really even playing and I'm happy to wait to see what other people want

[Aristeia]

ari could you please explain your read on datisi in detail?

I don't really have one, atp its more of I think THS/Merlyn are really scummy and I'd be ok putting any 5 that aren't them into the coalition and hoping it's right

[Aristeia]

like some things have pinged kind of townie but he's a p good scum player so I don't think there's anything I'd say is like clearing or amazing for him

he's also kind of disinterested in playing mafia so it's harder to get a read on him - ig I'd gth think its town indicative for him to not care if he's town but like maybe its more nai that he doesnt enjoy mafia anymore.

[Aristeia]

It's disheartening to see Mala's only post in the last 48 hours to be contentless.

I've seen her be completely contentless as town unfortunately so it's kind of a tossup

[Aristeia]

Day 1 ends in 8 days, 20 hours, 14 minutes.

this deadline is for both coalition + elimination so we probably should finalize before it gets too close to the deadline.

[Aristeia]

do you have a preferred coalition implosion?

[Aristeia]

datisi never really made a coalition before he quit playing

[Aristeia]

I guess it's not unreasonable to be paranoid that because noone is trying to fight their way in that the coalition you put forward is tainted - but like it's not really even a consensus because nobody is even playing this game rn

[Aristeia]

Duck it

HEAL: ari/bella/dragons/hero/implo

i kind of think we should sub mala in for someone in the coalition because she can't be mafia if she's voting for a clean coalition right

[Aristeia]

Ari, would you swap mala for you?

it's not ideal but I don't mind it

[Aristeia]

The fact that I've been fairly universally town read until the last few pages is interesting: are scum trying to get me replaced with them, or have I just not been here enough. Hmmm

who is trying to replace you and take your spot?

[Aristeia]

Ok, cool, I still really strongly think implo and drew are town.

why are implo and drew strong town for you?

[Aristeia]

I also feel that this will get us more info.

when you say this - what info do you mean?

[Aristeia]

unfortunate

[Aristeia]

we should vote out someone in the coalition first - voting outside of coalition is p bad

[Aristeia]

I don't even know where I am tbh

[Aristeia]

I guess I feel like I can get a better read on STD given more time so I'm not really in a rush to vote him yet.

I feel good things about your slot which historically means I'm being snowed by you since I''m not scumreading you

I feel like I can't really touch hero atp since everyone thinks he's town and maybe it's just me being the idiot who can't see it.

I dunno I feel worse about bella than before.

[Aristeia]

I guess I just think this is the part where we need the off coalition people to be more vocal about who they want to yeet atp and me to shut up and stop talking so much.

[Aristeia]

I don't think it's likely at all tbh

[Aristeia]

VOTE: STD

[Aristeia]

i don't think its as easy as rh9/std but I am willing to suspend my pessimism to trust in implosion at least one time

[Aristeia]

if std/implo are both town and then i get elimmed next i'll be fine with it because at least we'll all lose together

[Aristeia]

like at that point what's it down to for scum in the coalition? Hero and Bella?

like I'm ok losing to a scum!hero that both implo/datisi thought was super town it's fine.

[Aristeia]

like if scum in the coalition just happens to be super townread by everyone just take the L and move on with your life

[Aristeia]

I don't really have a lot of energy for this game I don't feel like I'm getting any closer to solving by talking to people so it's fine to put my faith in others and just hope they're right

[Aristeia]

am i somehow unreadable today

[Aristeia]

i dont feel good about yeeting std nemore

UNVOTE:

[Aristeia]

ari, why?

because it feels like there's too many people twiddling their thumbs on the sidelines and their votes are on irrelevant people[THS,Bella] and that's sometimes a sign that scum are fine with the current choices/dichotomy in the game and kind of just hoping someone gets offed.

and I reread some of datisi's early posting and didn't feel great about thinking he's mafia.

STD is still bleh but I don't feel great about just mailing it in

[Aristeia]

i dunno. i was wrong about someone and i think implosion looks like the most likely candidate

why is implosion the most likely candidate?

[Aristeia]

i don't really understand how you went from datisi is 99% town to oh he's the bad guy now

[Aristeia]

ari, why?

because it feels like there's too many people twiddling their thumbs on the sidelines and their votes are on irrelevant people[THS,Bella] and that's sometimes a sign that scum are fine with the current choices/dichotomy in the game and kind of just hoping someone gets offed.

and I reread some of datisi's early posting and didn't feel great about thinking he's mafia.

STD is still bleh but I don't feel great about just mailing it in

Your thinking is very similar to my own, but where are you ending up? If you're saying that we should be wary of the current choices, you mean std and implo I assume. So who are you wanting to vote for instead?

i don't know - I am waiting for std/hero to answer me atp

[Aristeia]

This logic only really applies if one of THS/Bella is scum, right?

yea

[Aristeia]

hero you know its ok to just say you dont know if you dont know right

[Aristeia]

I agree with implo, again

what are you agreeing with implo about?

[Aristeia]

728 specifically.

what was convincing about 728? and if you agree with him that STD is mafia why are you not voting for STD?

[Aristeia]

Am I supposed to explain to the person I think could be scum why I think they're scum? Or waste time and energy explaining my progression on Drew and Merlyn when I don't really think it matters right now and you can just read my ISO? Ask me something that actually benefits us to answer and I'll try my best

I think you should probably explain why you think Bella is mafia if you want to yeet her because you need to convince the rest of us to help vote her in order to actually yeet her

[Aristeia]

I thought it was weird Ari didn't respond to my.sxum read and I felt like their read on me didn't make sense
They responded to that in a fairly.+town way
The middle section with hero really threw me, I felt like they were a bit agenda driven
I've liked their posting more since the coalition failed, they seem more solve focused.
Conclusion: they might be town, maybe it was the dars but of the early game that made me feel weird

my pronouns are she/her

[Aristeia]

ok fine

VOTE: std

[Aristeia]

tbh i would've expected implosion to get nightkilled

[Aristeia]

because he led on yeeting STD and suspected Datisi b4 the coalition even got finalized

[Aristeia]

i think rh9 but im willing to keep sheeping implosion

[Aristeia]

my paranoid worry is that the reason implosion wasnt nightkilled was because he is hard townreading bellaphant and she is the last mafia

[Aristeia]

im actually not that sure on rh9 at all tbh

i change my answer to bella

[Aristeia]

I'm fine with yeeting RH9 - I have some reservations but I am prepared to be carried

[Aristeia]

So my problem is I don’t think I have seen ari scum so idk what her scum game would look like.
My read on datisi is always skewed when ari is involved. Idk why, but this game datisi pinged me right away and not in a good way. The last game I played I had Datisi as town very early
So this makes me just not want to play Datisi in a coalition until I sort dats out further.
I lowkey am townreading ari, but then again never seen scum her so I wouldn’t want to place her in a coalition bc of that.

As for hero I have a townread on that slot
Everyone else I need to figure out and reread

i lowkey think mala doesnt say this about her scum teammate

[Aristeia]

i do not feel good about how rh9 feels kind of limbaity here

[Aristeia]

cool lol

i might as well:

HEAL: Datisi, Hero, Bella, Merlyn

Drew do you want in?

How opportunistic can you be. you basically agree with my two (three? I'm not sure if you're saying you townread Drew here) townreads here while ALSO putting yourself in the coalition, while at the same time saying "idk, THS seems like scum for the bella read and putting himself in the coalition". you're just parroting the wrong read already espoused by datisi hoping no one will notice.

VOTE: Hero at Heart

oh this is a very bad post

THS is accusing hero of being scum for scumreading him while having the "same" views as him, but completely ignoring the fact on how those views came to be, when something like that is very relevant, is uh, a choice

THS, are you an alt? do you have mafia experience elsewhere?

kind worried if this is datisi scum defending his partner

[Aristeia]

actually like, idk how much exp you have with mala, i don't have that much, but she doesn't strike me as a sort of thinking 5 steps ahead scum player (no offense) that you're making her out to be there, do you think it's like, likely that scum-mala would've been thinking so much about something like that on page 2?

Hear me out.

Reading that post again by Dats, doesn't it read as he knows you are town?

lol wut is this

[Aristeia]

disagree somewhat with implo's take on THS, sure it's not necessarily a play someone with years of experience as scum would make, but it is still a scumtell in my book to be making a scumreadthis way. i also feel THS would approach the accusations differently if town (focus more on explaining what they did rather than on whether they had reason to do it as scum).

In both cases I wanted to acknowledge that both reads could be wrong and wanted to offer a scenario for if I am wrong and how it would be.

i am quite confused by what you mean here.

actually like, idk how much exp you have with mala, i don't have that much, but she doesn't strike me as a sort of thinking 5 steps ahead scum player (no offense) that you're making her out to be there, do you think it's like, likely that scum-mala would've been thinking so much about something like that on page 2?

Hear me out.

Reading that post again by Dats, doesn't it read as he knows you are town?

not rlly.

if anything it sounds like

aristeia

knows that kittens is town. did you read just the part kittens quoted or the whole back and forth they had?

and h/h defends datisi back? like feels kind of sensitive no? i didnt even register it as suspicion back then

[Aristeia]

HEAL: Datisi, Hero, Merlyn, Bella, Implosion

Would rather have you then Dats in there

does drew really say this as a datisi teammate

[Aristeia]

kind of thinking its just hero + datisi scumteam

i should probly reread d1 when its not super late

[Aristeia]

did you ever even read d1 in the first placr

[Aristeia]

Though, it seems my meta never factored in implo's reads.
P-edit: I ought to reread D1 too.

RH9 when you sign up for a game you should actually try to play it

[Aristeia]

so did you actually read the game or not

[Aristeia]

btw RH9
you were scumreading implo, right?
did that change at all following std's flip?

Kinda, as it's not as strong as it was D1, but he's still in my scumpool, unless I'm wrong on Merlyn/you/Ari.
P-edit: I did.

are you going to share with us your thoughts about what you read?

[Aristeia]

Ari, how do you feel about 835?

i have played with hero when he was mafia and I think your reasoning does not apply to him at all

[Aristeia]

pushing me doesn't help you win the game if you're teamed with STD because it only shrinks the limpool

[Aristeia]

I can't help but feel like it would have been much easier for Datisi to simply support me in pushing you d1 if he wasn't partnered with you

[Aristeia]

like everything he did d1 just makes sense if he is teamed with you

[Aristeia]

if they wanted not to bus they could have easily justified voting me over STD at any point

I think when you play two scum in a pool of five you pretty much have to bus at some point because it is incredibly difficult to mislim every one of the other three townies. The question is like

when

do you bus and

why

do you bus.

let's look at H/H's progression post coalition failure;


this is vote#1 on Datisi/STD 556


Merlyn follows at 560

what is hero doing?


554 apologizes to me for being wrong - like um isn't this just hoping I don't come after him for being wrong? also if i'm a suspect to him why is he apologizing to me?


566 "ok being wrong on the coalition and having the possibility of either ari or std being scum really sucked my wim, so i am probably going to check out from the game until friday (when i estimate i will get a wim boost)"

feels like he's trying to feel out if there's any support for pushing me - notice here STD is already at 2 votes.


so at 581 I vote for STD which is vote#3


and at 587 he votes for STD saying that if i'm scum he'll cry

I feel this is just performative? like if he really thinks its between me and STD what has he actually done to sort our slots atp? If I'm mafia and std is town why

wouldn't

I be voting for STD and pushing that easy lim through?


then 590 is just ??? like why is that even the bar for Implosion? Implosion thinks STD is mafia, he doesn't need to accurately townread every other slot in the game to do it?


then he revotes STD at 618 which again is nonsensical to his original progression on me/STD having 1 mafia out of us and he has to make a decision between the two of us because now he says its because implosion is town and lining up kittens as the next flip. 619 he claims its because his hammer retraction is really weird?

[Aristeia]

and i also think that as scum i would've made a proper push on you day 1, i think i had plenty of opportunity to position that push but i did not take it because, as town, i was not thinking in terms of positioning myself but in terms of finding scum.

also like i kind of feel like you did fish for a wagon on me by saying you couldn't make up your mind between me/std but once it was up to three votes on STD you just started running him over with a bus over and over

[Aristeia]

not really? in the early game you mentioned not liking my super-confidence that datisi is town and i construed it as you being somewhat annoyed with my behavior, so when i turned out wrong i wanted to apologize. this is like, social interaction for dummies.

ok but how did you even know at this point that datisi was mafia

[Aristeia]

brilliant solve, merlyn.

why is RH9 mafia

[Aristeia]

like i feel datisi's play this game was designed to pocket me and my extreme townread of him is a result of this pocket (as well as my own towntunneling)

do you have examples of his play being designed to pocket you

[Aristeia]

I don't think it's Hero. All of this stuff, including yesterdays vote waffling, would have to be a performance. If I'm throwing away the game here I'll congratulate him at the end and also be slightly scared of him.

I am unwilling to lose to hero!mafia but if everyone else wants to I won't care

[Aristeia]

I am not sure how many times I have to tell you that I have seen him fake emotional reactions to game events as mafia for you to understand it is not clearing and his emotional reactions do not even make sense

[Aristeia]

I am fine with you or anyone else hammering RH or the replacement

I do not expect the game to end but I will be ecstatic if it does.

[Aristeia]

its not scummy for you to have emotions

i am saying your emotions are fake

[Aristeia]

so your theory is that I'm mafia and I decided instead of letting you push RH9 to death today and then Drew to death tommorrow I started to jump up and down and say you're mafia

ok sure why would I do that

[Aristeia]

i am saying your emotions are fake

well then you are wrong

try reading my play with the mindset of "i have scum guilt from winning last game as scum and i really want to be town with datisi and ari to make up for it" and all my posts would make sense to you

I don't believe in scum guilt

[Aristeia]

I am reading your play with "do these emotions make sense in this place in time and do these reads make sense" and frankly they don't

[Aristeia]

because i said i would eliminate you tomorrow 100% and you have to get rid of me

if you night kill me it would implicate you

you only said that after I pushed you

before I pushed you you wanted to flip RH9 and then Doctor Drew

[Aristeia]

if anything your response to me is blatantly survivalistic

[Aristeia]

also you're not even evaluating how I think about your alignment in terms of "does town!ari actually believe this about me"

for example when I say to implo/merlyn who are townreading you for wild emotional responses that you fake this as scum,

you aren't thinking hmm does town!ari think I would fake emotional responses as scum? because you and I both know that's what you did when we last played together and you were mafia.

instead you begin wildly flailing at me as if that's not a reasonable read for me to have.

[Aristeia]

but actually scum!RH9 could just have wifom killed THS, it's not even that unlikely

and i think that this post:

I'm not sure from these latest posts, RH9, are you thinking STD is scum?

I think implo is, because, based on a reread, he knows what my scumgame looks like and hasn't been acknowledging that the posts I made upon replacing in (

if he genuinely thinks I'm scum

) make more sense in a implo/me world than a STD/me world.

is not an argument town makes, because why would town say that implo should think implo is scum? that's a weird argument, of the kind back in the day people called a scum slip.

VOTE: RH9

but i do wanna flip drew next.

[Aristeia]

you were literally lining up drew as the next lim after rh9 while claiming that RH9 flipping would end the game

[Aristeia]

now you are claiming that scum!ari seeing you wanting to kill town!rh9 then town!drew would then go reread the game and start saying why drew/rh9 are town in order to what

bring this fight against you into d2? wouldn't it be much simpler for me to just let you kill rh9 then try to kill drew and then try to kill you at elo? what's the scum motivation for me to even 1v1 you here ?

[Aristeia]

you aren't thinking hmm does town!ari think I would fake emotional responses as scum? because you and I both know that's what you did when we last played together and you were mafia.

except i disagree with that

i don't think i faked any emotional responses, unless you mean doing something like "oh i'm so confused about who is scum and idk who to vote" or "wow i can't believe that guy threw!" is considered faking emotional responses.

do you actually want me to start quoting posts from the other game

[Aristeia]

hello titus you're going to die if you don't actually town it up pretty quickly I hope you can do that if you're town

[Aristeia]

you were literally lining up drew as the next lim after rh9 while claiming that RH9 flipping would end the game

i was, right up until i voted you last page, about 80% sure rh9 is scum

am i not allowed to have second and third place scumreads?

you can have as many scumreads as you want

[Aristeia]

personally I think you were pretty excited to roll scum with Datisi

I think you told him you wanted to townblock with him or whatever similar to how we played it.

I think him pretending to not know who you were was fake because you probably told him in the scum pt who you were

I think you and him defending each other strongly d1 was how you decided to play it

I think your townread of him made no sense and I think his townread of you also made no sense considering I told him who you were and he knows this is what your scumgame looks like.

then he repped out and the coalition passed and STD didnt really want to play and came under pressure so you bussed him.

it doesn't particularly matter to me how much you hem and haw that it's not you - I am pretty much immune to that kind of AtE.

If you're town I hope you're right that RH9 is actually mafia because this is probably a loss if he isn't

[Aristeia]

also I kind of think there's no way town!you actually thinks I'm mafia because you know how I play mafia since you played an entire game with me and you know I have no incentive to actually get my hands dirty fighting with you on D2 when I need to survive to D4 to actually win this game so I think your read on me is fake and you're only pushing back because you think it will help you survive somehow or whatever.

[Aristeia]

1. did you even read the examples i quoted for datisi pocketing me? do you think that wasn't actual pocketing? do you think datisi is not capable of creating fake associatives like that? because the way you (and ausuka) described his sucmplay in that other game, he definitely can.

no that's not how Datisi pockets. I have seen him pocket people with townreads - they are usually far more nuanced and written out in a way that is actually like good. I don't understand why you thought his townread of you made any sense.

[Aristeia]

2. does my play toward std at end of day make sense as a partner? it's literally shady as fuck and shows zero gamestate awareness, which i know you know is very uncharacteristic for scum!me. (or in other words, i know you know i have gamestate aweareness as scum)

you saw three votes hit STD putting him at e-2 and leading candidate to be limmed. if you're partnered with him what r u going to do? flail around and performatively vote/unvote a bunch of times is not an unreasonable thing for scum!you to do.

[Aristeia]

like you're claiming what you did to STD was shady as fuck

and I am also claiming

that what you did to STD is shady as fuck

so we are pretty much in agreement

you seem to think that I would expect scum you to not be shady as fuck when the game state moves towards limming your partner while you are pretending to be making a decision between me/std - which tbh i dont think you actually were, you were probly feeling out support to see if you could get anyone to vote me.

[Aristeia]

ok fine hero why did you think Datisi's townread of you was a geniune townread

[Aristeia]

you have zeor evidence of me ever flailing performatively as scum, because that's literally not a thing i do. if you want go read that game again, i literally hard bussed my partner the second they were in danger.

hammering your partner at elo after the confirmed town player votes for your partner is not a "hardbus"

[Aristeia]

you have zeor evidence of me ever flailing performatively as scum, because that's literally not a thing i do. if you want go read that game again, i literally hard bussed my partner the second they were in danger.

hammering your partner at elo after the confirmed town player votes for your partner is not a "hardbus"

like you keep claiming things that are literally not true

if you don't believe me that hardbus does not mean hammering a mafia partner at elo AFTER the confirmed town player votes for your partner, then I guess you could ask pretty much anyone else here whether that counts as a hardbus

[Aristeia]

ok fine hero why did you think Datisi's townread of you was a geniune townread

because i felt i was radiating townvibes early game and it made sense that datisi picked up on these townvibes, and then he sort of refused to explain it in a way that sounded like how you won't really explain a vibe based read.

this is literally the definition of a shady bullshit read

[Aristeia]

hammering your partner at elo after the confirmed town player votes for your partner is not a "hardbus"

well you should read the entire day phase.

saying "why are you voting [town player] over [partner], please vote [partner]" is hard bus

as well as saying "hmmm idk if it's [partner+townie] or [partner+other partner], but it's definitely [partner]"

you barely played that dayphase, you were literally not around except for voting at the end and if you were around we could've won much earlier

[Aristeia]

asking someone to vote your partner at elo when you yourself are not voting is also not a hardbus

[Aristeia]

hardbussing requires you to actually vote when there are stakes on the line

saying things is just shitty scum distancing

[Aristeia]

if you had opened elo with voting me and pushing for me to be elimmed - that would be a hardbus

you popping in every 2 days to say hmm i want to vote these 2 people and one of those 2 people happen to be the person i'm 1v1ing and the other one happens to be me is not a hard bus

its just you doing shady popins

[Aristeia]

shitty scum distancing that won me the game :shrug:

ok and thats what i'm saying you are doing this game...

[Aristeia]

like you are claiming that as scum you would have hardbussed STD and you claim I would know this because you claim you hardbussed me to win the game we were scum together

except like you didn't hardbus me. you literally just did weird shady popins and said you thought the scum team was me and the person i was 1v1ing. you only voted me AFTER the conftown player made a choice to vote me because at that point its decided i'd be elimmed.

[Aristeia]

what "flailing" did i do in that day phase?

you are moving the yardsticks again

i said you flailed in the game in general

not that you flailed in the last dayphase

i dont remember what you did in the last dayphase - i think you barely posted while I was trying to talk the conftown player into voting someone that was not me

[Aristeia]

you should know i'm susceptible to pockets and that i tend to take townreads on me at face value.

so scum!me knows you're susceptible to pockets and fake townreads and I decide to scumread you instead because lol why?

[Aristeia]

i think you've made it pretty clear i'm your #2 scumread

[Aristeia]

titus you're at e-1 if you're town can you do something useful pls

[Aristeia]

if you're mafia just self vote because like i doubt you will win this game everyone wants to yeet you and your predessors dug like a 35 foot hole already

[Aristeia]

i think you've made it pretty clear i'm your #2 scumread

i think i made it pretty clear i have no idea what to make of your posts these last 2 pages

i dunno you sounded pretty confident I was mafia 2 pages ago which is weird if you think I know you treat townreads like gold or whatever

[Aristeia]

most of these pages make me feel nothing except that i feel bad for not hammering last night if titus is indeed scum

so its all your fault

[Aristeia]

ill vote titus if she doesnt do anything by this time tommorrow unless implosion wants to hammer or whatever

[Aristeia]

i would barely call that a swing tbh

[Aristeia]

Like I am 85% sure it's Hero.

do you want to like say why

or like

any reads on anyone else

or any analysis of what happened

[Aristeia]

r u just not going to read the game

[Aristeia]

fingers crossed :3

[Aristeia]

I lowkey kind of think Hero would have killed me last night so me being alive points to him being innocent

[Aristeia]

I am kind of worried implosion is mafia because him still being alive is not making much sense to me esp killing Drew over him is kind of a ???

[Aristeia]

specifically with respect to the hero read - I just feel like he was so uncomfortable with the amount of pressure I applied to him yesterday that if he had a nightkill he would just use it on me instead of doctor drew?

[Aristeia]

if hero does turn out to be mafia and wins this game I don't care that I've readflipped on him 4 times I'll still claim I knew it was him

[Aristeia]

it would be but I still kind of think he would do it

[Aristeia]

this world doesn't have enough sad songs for me to listen to if i rolled mafia with datisi and he decided to leave me.

[Aristeia]

I am willing to take a bop shot if people want me to

or I guess Implosion can if he would like to.

or we could come to some kind of consensus decision but it feels like people are very noncommital atp

[Aristeia]

its when you kill the person who make it if they're wrong

[Aristeia]

like we have 2 lims left

so if everyone wantz to let me bop, then just let me make decision on who to lim and if im wrong then kill me tommorrow

[Aristeia]

there is also reverse bop which is you kill me first and then kill the person i wanted to kill tommorrow.