California has a prison at a town callled aTASKYdero so obviously, he must be from there and is scum. Either that or my Okie accent led me to mispronounce Atascadero and this is pure bollocks.
Mini 1005: Mafiaphobes! (Game over)
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Oso Goon
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Vote:Tasky
California has a prison at a town callled aTASKYdero so obviously, he must be from there and is scum. Either that or my Okie accent led me to mispronounce Atascadero and this is pure bollocks.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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Gah, I almost hurt myself laughing over that avatar
I'd love to know the LOL caption that went along with it.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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Hell, I give this a go before I start.
1-No.Tasky wrote:.
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1) Are you scum?
2) What's the role you prefer to play (nothing to uncommon please), which role do you prefer between townie and scum?
3) What role you hate having in the setup/play against (nothing uncommon please)?
4) What do you think about bandwagons in early game, what in late game?
5) How would you characterize your playing style?
6) What do you think about RVS?
7) How do you hope to find scum?
2-VT/town - SK/scum
3-None really but not too fond of cult games.
4-BWs in early game: Unavoidable, so I have come to accept them. Late game: Don't like them generally. Why? Too much of an MD topic to get into in the middle of a game.
5-Logical. If people are making fallacious arguments, its a flag to start looking at their play and figure out why they are making them.
6-Neutral. Given I like logical play, any randomness skews my preferred play style but they are fun for thinking up one-liners based on peoples names/avatars.
7-See #5My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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Major contradiction here Tasky, as I see it.
First saying that the questions have mostly nothing to do with this game except to help you build a personailty profile.Tasky wrote:- snip -
I'm not asking you anythink about this game... this is just so I can get a sort of personality profile... people tend to play differently when playing roles they like than if they play roles they don't like...
just because one says he likes to play cops, that doesn't influence whether he is cop or not...
two things:jayfl383 wrote:I think the vote kinda looked OMGUS...I mean if I refuse to answer your questions does that make me scum? Some people have different opinions, I found it odd though that you voted for Vezo without any concrete evidence other then the fact he didn't answer your question just like 80% of the rest of the people...just saying.
1. not answering questions is denying information... and thats scummy
- snip -
Then saying that not answering questions is denying information so therefore scummy?
What
Seems to me like you custom tailored a situation where you could auto-vote anyone as scummy based on not answering your questions. Add in the fact that you already noted that those questions were pretty much for your use alone and you get a situation where...wait for it... that not answering questions that have no direct bearing on the flow of the game except for one person is scummy? I'm sorry that answered them myself now.
What I'm not sorry for is that my vote is already on you from the RVS
UnVote:Tasky
Vote:Tasky
Just so there can be no mistaking that my RVS vote is now a serious vote.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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Oso: I'd like you to answer these questions before we get deep into the game.Friend wrote:I don't understand Oso's contradiction. I don't want to defend Tasky here because I think he's pretty scummy anyways, but I still don't get it.
Friend: Ok, but they are not really game related, how does this help?
Oso: They don't really, just might be helpful to me as the game goes along, sort of build a personality profile on you.
Friend: Sounds pretty innocuous but I think I'll pass. They aren't helping the game as a whole as far as I can see.
Oso:But not answering questions is denying information... and thats scummy
Friend: But you said......
Oso:SCUM
I apologize if that comes off as sarcastic. Best way i could illustrate it without hitting you with an 'Oso certified' text/logic wall. Basically, the contradiction, as I see it, comes in where Tasky comes in and says a list of questions basically have no real bearing on the game except to 'mainly to get out of the RVS' but he his willing to base scum reads off of people who won't answer them based off denying information. Information he has already stated that, in the post where he poses the questions, was nothing more than to get out of RVS. He keeps adding reasons though so I'm sure we are not through with this.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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And that is fine Friend, more power to him if he can actually make it work reliably. My problem with the whole idea wasn't against the idea, but rather that he used a refusal to participate as a basis to call someone scum.
What I actually think of the idea is a discussion I would like to have. But not here, in the middle of an active game.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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@ Friend. My opinion on diddin is pretty much neutral at the moment. Mostly because, while you pointed out that vote could be seen as opportunistic, I need more than a single instance of opportunistic behavior to consider that it is opportunistic AND because he used the contradiction to vote. I voted for that same reason myself so trying to find him scummy/null/town off that isn't going to work for me. Same goes for SSBF.
Unvote:Tasky
Why? Look at the discussion. Many people have pointed out how scum could possibly use his method against him and against town. Again, I don't want to get into a huge MD dissertation here but he has a theory of Mafia that he is trying to refine. Whether it works or not is moot. I think the contradiction I caught him in was a direct result of the fact that his trying to make his method work and he didn't think about what he was saying for that reason. Not because he was trying to lay some sort of trap.
Friend hit on the head here:
Based on the way Tasky has posted so far, if his questions are some sort of scum gambit, I am not seeing it.Friend wrote:I see what you're getting at, I suppose. While I don't think not answering the questions is scummy, I think I can see why he does.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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I quote part of my last postFriend wrote:@Oso: Why the change of heart? You were the one who brought up the contradiction in the first place.
Your comment that you thought not answering the questions wasn't scummy, but you could see how Tasky would think it was clarified it for me. He didn't contradict himself because he is scum but rather because he is trying to get his theory to work. Same contradiction still exists but my thoughts on his motivation for making it in the first place has changed.Oso wrote: - snip -
I think the contradiction I caught him in was a direct result of the fact that his trying to make his method work and he didn't think about what he was saying for that reason. Not because he was trying to lay some sort of trap.
- snip -My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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Testing this statement by subscribing to topic and seeing if it ends up as a board notification or in my personal email box. Of course, me being the poster might hose it for me. So could the first person who see this post?Tasky wrote:especially since if you are posting and someone posts something in the meanwhile, you get notified by the forum mechanics...My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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First person who see it that is playing in this that is....My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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It does? I mustn't have posted over another player since the board change then. Carry on. Don't mind the weird guy in cornerMy Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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VOTE: KageLord
You case on vezo starts well no doubt about that. Points in there that made me go back and look myself.
You started to make me doubt you when you said this:
Using out of game reasoning to base an in-game scumcall on. Bells start ringing. Any good player would know that it is impossible to base anything off of post time unless there is a wide gap (much more than 6 minutes) before trying to call bullshit on a ninja post. Since I'm not going to assume anyone is a bad player, I have to assume there is a reason behind that statement.KageLord wrote: - snip -
....The first reason is that, if things did happen the way you say they did, that means your little post took at least 6 minutes to write. It doesn't seem like a few lines should take that long....
- snip -
The here:
Now I'm sure he's scum. He narrows the time for calling vezo a liar.KageLord wrote:- snip -
EBWOP: That "few lines" I mention above is actually these two. Looking at it again... I'd say this should take a max of 3 minutes to right and submit.
- snip -
What if I told you that it took me about 45 minutes to compose this and someone posted something similar just as i started? Would I be auto scummed in your eyes because of the discrepancy if I said I didn't preview before post and I was ninja'd. I mean, my god it's 45 minutes. Doesn't take into account the 4 phone calls I had though. The broke neighbor coming by to ask if he could bum a couple of cigarettes and the trip I made outside to smoke myself while filling up the outside cat's water dish so they don't maybe, I don't know, die of thirst because it's summer.
That didn't happen with this post because it didn't take 45 minutes but what I just described is pretty much the types of posting interruptions I deal with all the time during the weekdays.
And KageLord is trying to push a 6 minute, outside the game, discrepancy? Scummier than a stagnant frog pond in August is what that is.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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I t wasn't particularly long. That was the point of my post.diddin wrote:True Oso, but all of that was written before he saw Vezo's post explaining why the post took particularly long to write. However, KageLord doesn't unvote afterward, which makes it seriously look like he's grasping for straws here.
FoS: KageLord
The scumminess of using a discrepancy like that to call scum, isn't that it he made it before vezo's explanation, it is that he tried used the discrepancy at all. Town don't (or shouldn't) use it. They may think it, I have myself on several occasions and discarded it, but the only reason I can see to use it in game is by scum trying to pile on as many reasons as they can for a lynch.
This may be just my view but using OOC actions to base in game decisions on is only non-scummy when doing the lurker hunt thing and only if you get a cycle of prod->excuse/no content post->prod->excuse/no content post and even there, mod replacement rather than lynching is a better option.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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Please, for my sanity, quit trying to be right and start hunting scum. That display of logic would have been far more impressive had you went out and gathered together some things that you could use to convince yourself and the rest of the thread that what SSBF posted was not only wrong according your reasoning, but that it somehow tied into him being scum. Or maybe just not clutter up the thread with logic lessons if you think he is wrong but not scummy.Tasky wrote:A brings up a fallacious argument against B, C points out that fallacy, so in a way C is defending B from A's attack... but as you said, this is not a scum-tell...
therefore your assumption that every defense is a scum-tell is wrong
QED
Plus, this is a post to avoid prod. If I don't get a chance tonight to post more tonight, this should cover any auto prods the mods has.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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Ok, might as well do my take on the thread.
Tasky: Inital impression that he was trying to pull something with that RQS end to the Random Stage. I have already conceded my reasoning for that vote was probably wrong. Reading some of his posts lately, that impression hasn't changed. Willing to put him into the town category for now. I don't agree with a large portion of his method, but the attempt seems sincere as I really don't see any maliciousness in it.
jayfl383: Didn't jump out at me until i reread him in ISO and then again in context. This post(#116) pretty much sums up why he gets a town a read from me at the moment. I might not agree with all his conclusions but, as far as I can see, he is using a sound basis for them. I do agree that that vezo wagon has scum written all over it. Mainly because of whose on it and yes, that also means I think he may have his vote in the right place as well.
q21: Neutral with a slight bump towards town. He got a late start in the game but is making up for that and he is not throwing crap around just to see what sticks. Enough for me to not to put him as scum at all even if that means as I only see him as neutral.
Chibi, diddin, Quadz, SSBF, vezo and xvart: Pretty much unclassified at the moment. Chibi because of lack of posts. The rest basically because its seems you guys are jockeying around trying to get solid reads on people but I can't classify what you are doing as town or scum, most everything has washed null or scum/town tells in equal parts. Except vezo. Don't care about alignment there at the moment because a lot of conversation is being generated around him. Don't care right now if he's town or scum, I have no interest in lynching him today.
Friend: Tending scummy. But alot of that is based on an undefinable general itch rather than anything concrete to point to. Basically, that I don't think he is as thick as he was letting on earlier. On a re-read, I now hold the opinion that his interaction with me asking about my vote then unvote on Tasky weren't because he misunderstood them but rather that he was looking for some sort of contradiction or see if I would do some sort of weak sauce backpedal on my unvote. I reread my interaction with him wondering where my reasoning wasn't clear. Turns out I was perfectly clear and not just because I knew where I was going when I wrote them but no one else seems to have had any trouble understanding either the vote or the unvote. So, no vote right now on Friend either. I have no problem thinking he is scummy at the moment or even saying it, but I have no concrete evidence he is so, no vote at this time. But he is on my list of suspects.
KageLord: Scum. I have said it before. Saying it again. His original reasoning on vezo (sheeping was his point) is weak but not indefensible, starts to point at what might a legitimate pattern. He blows it from there on out though. I won't go into again but I will reference my vote post and his response post so you can have a quick reference to refrsh your memories.
Now this post. Go ahead and take a good look at it, while I quote a few things here.
Those are the points he made that I believe where he tries to link vezo's behavior as scummy.Kage Lord - Post 156 wrote:..
ISO 1: Disagrees with SSBF. Says that quicklynching can be good with an example of a previous game(no link and I personally think this could be taken as a little bit scummy, though I'll say it's null). Says scum do RQs more often then town (no examples/links). Doesn't like Tasky's response to vote (I personally see nothing wrong with Tasky's response, other than the previously discussed "is it scummy to not answer RQs"). Ignores Friend's direct request for links to back up the "subtle questions = scum".
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ISO 4: Agrees with Oso and unvotes Tasky(seems like first instance of sheeping to me, especially after appearing confident. but, we can give vezo the BotD here).
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ISO 9: Responds to Friend's claim of fake scumhunting by saying Friend is now in the town pile(possibly true or possibly just trying to appease Friend). Responds to my points by saying his phone rang in the middle of his post and the "noob pass" thing is a coincidence(again possible, but I think that both being coincidences is unlikely).
..
ISO 11: "Analyzes" (in quotes since I'm not sure that one line or a couple words about each person should be considered a true analysis) wagon. Claims Friend defended Tasky(which was already mentioned multiple times... more sheeping?).Claims I'm pushing wagon for out of game reasons(again, someone else's words/more possible sheeping).Says we are the possible 3 scum (I'm unfamiliar with these minis and their setups, so... are there usually 3 scum or is it usually random or what?). Votes me, saying my last few posts are incredibly scummy.
Notice the bolded parts. In every one of those, except his points on ISO 11, he gives himself an out. Look at the wording "I think...but call it null' - 'seems like..but give benefit of the doubt' - 'possibly true or....' - 'again possible...is unlikely'. No matter what vezo's alignment turns out to be, he's given himself an out on all major points. "See, I told he was scum" or "I said right here in the game that I thought I could be wrong"
Then there is his point on ISO 4, giving vezo the benefit of the doubt on sheeping. Then in his commentary between his points on ISO 5/6 and ISO 7 he throws this in:
I thought he was giving vezo the benefit of the doubt there about vezo following me off the Tasky vote? But look at his words in his point on ISO 11 "...which was already mentioned mutiple times...more sheeping?" To me, it is obviously he just threw that whole giving vezo the benefit of the doubt into his first point about sheeping so he could be seen as making a fair assessment of vezo's play so far. He certainly didn't give vezo the benefit of the doubt on anything it seems.Tasky wrote:....If he really agreed with Oso and wasn't just sheeping,...
He started off good by going after vezo for an emerging pattern that may have well had merit. He ended by being so eager to pile every little piece of crap he could find onto vezo that he become scummy in my eyes no matter if the original thought might have had some merit to it. His post I have quoted above is a post that is meant to lynch a player. Not scummy at all doing that, but because of the way he gave himself an out on the major points of his argument to avoid consequences if vezo flips town or take a major portion of the credit if vezo flips scum, makes this into a post that only scum would use. Either to kill a townie with deniability or get credit for a bussing.
My vote is already on KageLord and there it will stay. We have nine days to deadline so there is plenty of time so I urge all of you to read what he has said so far in Isolation and then in context and see what you think.
I will say this right out. This post is meant to get KageLord lynched. He's the lynch for the day in my opinion.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Yes, before I even read the rest of your post past that point, you are right. I put the Quote but there where It says "Tasky" and should say "KageLord" my bad there. All those quotes in my post are yours.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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The point where I say you are leaving yourself an out and you counter that you are just showing uncertainty, sorry, I have found it to be a reliable scumtell.
As to Tasky, he and you are quite a bit different as while I may not agree with his style of play and methodology, I just don't see him as malicious (and by that I mean blatant scum behavior) at the moment. I do see your attack on vezo as malicious for the reasons stated in Post #191 and the post where I voted you.
As to why I don't care if vezo is scum or town now? Because I don't. Whatever his alignment is, I believe that his drawing a lot of heat, whether he intended to or not, has exposed scum. Namely you. If you get lynched and I am proved right, then I have no problem seeing if it can be done again tomorrow using vezo and I still won't care what alignment he is. If the conversation surrounding vezo keeps drawing out scum, I'm in favor of keeping him around until it doesn't. Then I'll consider looking at his alignment.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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Not faulty (at least I hopes it's not), although I do have to admit it does seem that way on first blush. That is because I have put a fair dose of reasoning that has nothing really to do with logic in there and inferred a few things, one of which directly relates to why I'm not all that worried about vezo right now.Tasky wrote:here your logic is faulty, Oso:
you are assuming that KageLord is keeping himself outs for both scenarios (vezo flipping scum/vezo flipping town)
assume KageLord is scum... he would then know whether vezo is scum or not... so he would not need to give himself possible outs since he could play just in the right way without having to keep the two possibilities open...
this is not saying that KL can't be scum, maybe he is, but if he is, for other reasons...
So I'll try to lay it out as completely as I can without using a wall.
1 - First twitch, KL votes vezo on something that may be legitimate but adds a secondary, supporting reason that, at least in my opinion, isn't used by town to support a case. Basing an in-game scumcall on out of game reasoning.
2 - Then the post I picked apart. The way it's laid out does allow him deniability and credit no matter which way vezo flips. I'll admit right here that does point at him being town if you are going to give him(KageLord) the benefit and go ahead and say he is unsure town. He thinks vezo may be scum but has indicated he's not sure. If this is the case and he flips town and/or vezo flips scum and I'm still alive, then KageLord has an excellent point and I'm going to have a lot of 'splainin to do.
2A - The flip side of that is if he is doing it as scum (my current thinking) any attack he makes will have some sort of an out if he knows the person he is attacking is town. It will be either in the attack posts themselves or based on blaming the play of the person being attacked in a post-lynch blame fest. You were right though, bussing doesn't require the attacker being unsure so my argument may fail in your eyes on that point alone. But it does help loads when the inevitable accusations of bussing come up post-lynch.
@All players: So wrap up now. KL used a scumcall in the beginning of his case on vezo that not only invalidated KLs attack in my eyes but triggered the scumdar as well. His continued attacked on vezo unfolded pretty much in same general way I have seen it happen before if he were indeed scum. The way he did it makes me think he isn't bussing though. He picked the weakest townie he could make any sort of case on at all and pushed it for all it was worth.
Is there a flaw in my case, getting back to Tasky's question? Yes, I could be wrong. I may have assigned wrong motivations where I shouldn't have or made assumptions where I shouldn't have. Occupational Hazard of Mafia and usually a fatal as well.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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@xvart
Did you perhaps forget to close a quote tag some where. I think you are asking me a question in your last post but I'm not sure, it is in among quoted text.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Thanks, I thought that was it.
Yes, I do. But it does depend somewhat on if KageLord flips town or scum if he is lynched. As I stated earlier, the way KL constructed his attack makes me think that that vezo may indeed be town.
Since I do think that KL is scum, vezo right now is looking better in my eyes right now as well.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
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Well, one thing for certain. I am not going off on a tangent here based on a three line post. And I won't speculate at the moment why I might think jay is doing it.
He needs to give some sort of an explanation beyond what is in his post.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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I'll second the extention request.Sotty7 wrote:Ack. We got caught in some crazy storms here yesterday so I'm not caught up yet. Deadline is coming up, any chance of anextension mod?
But, it shows that we do need to start narrowing the focus of this day. We have 10 votes spread over 5 players.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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I know, I'm going back through myself to make sure I haven't been tunneling on KageLord too much for my own part and disregarding other things that I shouldn't have or maybe that I just flat missed.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Yes, I would. And I would hope that my play up to that point would help get me out of any potential lynching party that might form because of it.Oso seems to be of the idea that someone is scummy for not being confident about the flip of his votee and he is consistent with his idea. Oso claims many times he is sure about Kagelord but if Kagelord were to flip town after a lynch, wouldn't Oso claim he was wrong and try to move on?
In the post you pointed out I conceded 2 things though, if KageLord flipped town, I'd have a lot of explaining to do, and the fact that pushing a case on someone who flips town has potentially fatal consequences for the person that pushed it.
Part of my playstyle. Good scumhunting requires the willingness on my part to be wrong. At some point I have to accept the fact that any given case I have on another player may be wrong and then abandon that doubt until something in the game (a post or a lynch) shows me that maybe I am wrong or defiantly wrong in the case of a flip . And there are consequences to that as well. Not only may I have just helped get a townie lynched, I may get lynched as well as a result of it.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Ok, did another read through and I can say that I am comfortable with KageLord vote so that is where it is staying.
Also, my read on Tasky and q21 are both pretty much still on the town side of the town/scum line. I had q21 as neutral but his participation and his post content have both nudged him up in my estimation.
The other town read I had (jay) and other suspicious read I had Poirot(was Friend) are in limbo at the moment because of jay's "jump in, cry scum and leave" post. Reserving any comment on either of these players until jay returns or it becomes obvious he isn't going to give an explanation.
Vezo, said it before, I have no interest in lynching him today myself mainly because of who is/was on his wagon. Kagelord is on it, Poirot was on it. But on a re-read, I can see how many of you see him as scummy. My basis for 'towning' him is mainly because of suspicions I have on two of the player's that were on his wagon.
xvart, had him unclassified earlier and neutral right now. Still don't have a definite town feeling from him but I do like what he is posting and don't mind having him around.
quadz. Back and forth on him because of his posts. Ends up with a mildly good feeling. Why? Because he went out of his way to correct a mistake he made here:
Granted, he continues to attack vezo in that post but at least he took a moment and made the earlier mistake right first.Oh, crap. I just did a quick re-read; I had forgotten that vezok had, in fact, acknowledged SSBF's post in an EBWOP. My apologies, vezok; I wasn't intending to misrepresent you.
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Diddin, still washing neutral. Can't see anything in the way he is posting and the content that points to him maliciously trying to do something and what tells I could find that would indicate town/scum also tend tobe a wash. Might be helpful if he would quit being so timid. I do agree with him SSBF though.
SSBF, gotta say, I don't like his style so I will have to be careful not to let that bias me but, having said that, I do not like the way he talks in absolutes. I know that relates to the whole "defending anyone is always a scumtell" argument that others have mentioned but yeah, goes back to what Diddin mentioned about that type of logic helping to fuel mis-lynches. And the examples he quoted in response to q21's side of the 'defending' argument are just well, which shows me he a problem with being wrong or being shown to be wrong. Not scummy but certainly anti-town in my opinion. At the very least he'll be very difficult to work with in discussions here if something runs up against an absolute scumtell of his.
Sotty7(ChibiSanNub), sorry not enough of a body of posts to do anything with. Chibi started off well enough as far as activity but fell off. Which is why I am glad to sotty7 in the thread regardless of alignment. I hate unfilled inactive spots.
So, vote stays on KageLord. Suspicions of Poirot and good feelings on jay are on hiatus until jay clarifies his last or it becomes clear he isn't going to clarify them. No definite scum feelings towards anyone else.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Certainly they would. If it was to their advantage to do so. When I re-read quadz, I didn't see where he gained any real advantage to correcting that mistake. Other than maybe correcting something that may be used against him later. Or, perhaps, that he realized he made a mistake and honestly didn't want an uncorrected mistake laying out there, which was the interpretation I went with. It all goes back to what I said about him. It doesn't seem to me that he like he is doing anything maliciously at this point in the game. Are there things that bug me about him? Yes, there are but not severe enough to do more than make note of move on.xvart wrote:Oso- so you don't think that scum would want to correct a mistake he/she made?
Already answered here: And I never thought Friend was scum for voting vezo. vezo got the town read and a Day 1 pass from me because two of the people that voted him are on my suspect list.Poirot wrote:Oso, I'd like you to develop on your suspicions on me/friend just to be clear. Are they solely based on the fact that friend was in vezok's wagon? If not, why?
Me(Oso) wrote:...
Friend: Tending scummy. But alot of that is based on an undefinable general itch rather than anything concrete to point to. Basically, that I don't think he is as thick as he was letting on earlier. On a re-read, I now hold the opinion that his interaction with me asking about my vote then unvote on Tasky weren't because he misunderstood them but rather that he was looking for some sort of contradiction or see if I would do some sort of weak sauce backpedal on my unvote. I reread my interaction with him wondering where my reasoning wasn't clear. Turns out I was perfectly clear and not just because I knew where I was going when I wrote them but no one else seems to have had any trouble understanding either the vote or the unvote. So, no vote right now on Friend either. I have no problem thinking he is scummy at the moment or even saying it, but I have no concrete evidence he is so, no vote at this time. But he is on my list of suspects.
...
No, they don't. Do your own work. If you think that the reasons are bogus, attack the reasons and the person who first made them. Then worry about who might have followed along.Poirot wrote:Seriously, those who are voting Kagelord for Oso's reasons, need to answer me what they think about quadz08. It just doesn't make sense. On top of that, why would you choose Kagelord over someone who you claimed to be suspicious of, like vezok. Just saying that any lynch satisfies you and that you will do whatever "you guys" want.
Yes I am, and is one of the reasons he hasn't gotten a full on town read from me. Again back to the whole impression thing. I think KageLord is doing it scummily, quadz, no. Just because I think one player is scummy for doing something it doesn't necessarily follow that I suspect another player as scummy because they are doing the same thing. Logic is good. For me it is useless by itself without stepping back and trying to figure out the 'why' of the situation. That requires assigning motivations based on gut and overall impressions on where I think the player(s) is going with their posts.Poirot wrote:This is basically why you will keep being my first suspect for a long time. You're basically excusing yourself of all responsibility (Oso, are you reading this? Isn't this the same thing Kage allegedly do and cause you to vote him?).My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Ok, I'll bite on that one. How do you explain 'gut feeling'? By definition it is not something based in logic. It based on past experience, overall impressions and perhaps even a subconscious awareness that something is wrong or right but you just haven't ferreted out the logical basis for it yet.
Yes. I use it some, where and when I think it appropriate to do so. The main thing is that I tend to throw out gut reads once more information shows that would invalidate the gut read. Information that I reserve the right to decide is valid or not. It's my gut after all.
Fair enough. Prove it.Oso keeps talking generalities and answering every question evasively. He looks like a politician and that displeases me a great deal.
and this
I do not disagree with the fact that logic is not everything.But when you make a case on someone where you first focus on logic that doesn't hold togetherand there's no attempt to explain the "gut" you apparently feel, it makes me wonder at how easy it is to get anyone lynched.
1 - Examples showing I am evasive and using generalizations and tie it into how that might indicate that am scum.
2A - Show exactly(or even just generally) how my logic is flawed or doesn't hold together in relation to the case I presented against KageLord.
2B - Link that as well into a case that shows not only am I am wrong but also how that might indicate my alignment as well.
I know you are. You hit on one of my pet peeves/self-defense actions. Namely that if you think I am scum and am deliberately trying to get KageLord lynched based on faulty logic then go with that. Don't try to set up a situation where you can lynch someone then use my case on KageLord to show I am scum. Because you know what's going to happen? You'll lynch quadz and when he flips town you'll say "Oh shit, we lynched a townie, but Oso is still scum. My bad there quadz." If you think I am deliberately setting up KG for a lynch because I took some bits and pieces and threw together a case simply to get a townie lynched then lynch me.That's how it is, eh? I'm doing my own work.
If you want an informational lynch then call for one. And if you are going to use a flip to try and determine my alignment then I suggest it be KageLord, that way you can use 'killed a townie or bussed a partner' no matter what happens. Might be easier too as you can start planning posts for either eventuality now and not wait for the flip.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I don't want an informational lynch. I want you lynched because I think you are scum. Big difference there. And if we can get to your lynch without scragging a townie first, that's even better.KageLord wrote:..
Edit after preview: Again, I think a vezo lynch would provide just as much, if not more, information as my lynch. The vezo lynch has the added bonus of having a firm case against the lynchee other than "gut" and "information". If you're so adamant on getting that information, Oso, and you don't care whether vezo is scum or town, why not lynch vezo and use that in your case against me (and possibly Poirot as well) in the unlikely event that he flips town? Since you already got some attention in this wagon, imagine how much support you could get if the one I focused the most on was a townie.
And in case you missed it, this:
was me giving Poirot the finger.Me(Oso) wrote:If you want an informational lynch then call for one. And if you are going to use a flip to try and determine my alignment then I suggest it be KageLord, that way you can use 'killed a townie or bussed a partner' no matter what happens. Might be easier too as you can start planning posts for either eventuality now and not wait for the flip.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Since we are in a lull here.
MOD: I know it's maybe a bit early but could jay get prodded? I'm sure I'm not the only one who like to see him back in here.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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@xvart
That in direct response to this:xvart wrote:Oso, 282 wrote:Ok, I'll bite on that one. How do you explain 'gut feeling'? By definition it is not something based in logic. It based on past experience, overall impressions and perhaps even a subconscious awareness that something is wrong or right but you just haven't ferreted out the logical basis for it yet.Who was this directed at?I'm going to go ahead and say that playing by gut is fine but it shouldn't be used as a tool to finagle lynch orders/preferences in such drastic ways.Case Study by xvart #1:
There were a few posts between Poirot's and mine. Sorry for the confusion.Poirot wrote:..
I do not disagree with the fact that logic is not everything. But when you make a case on someone where you first focus on logic that doesn't hold together and there's no attempt to explain the "gut" you apparently feel, it makes me wonder at how easy it is to get anyone lynched.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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I'm still here. I was mainly holding back to see if jay would make an appearance but think I'm going to have to give that up hoping for that at the moment.Sotty7 wrote:What happened to Oso?
To answer the question xvart asked earlier. No, SSBF hasn't made it near scum in my book so far. I don't like some of his ideas about using absolutes in scum tells and think it might be hard to convince him of anything if you hit try any use anything goes against that.
xvart has raised some interesting points in regards to quadz though, today is a light day working for me so I plan looking on looking at what he said in those couple of posts about quadz pretty closely. I have a slight town read on quadz at the moment so I'm interested. One question at xvart though, part of that is based on a meta call in regards to quadz right? If the game you mentioned is finished, could you link it? I don't recall seeing a game link or a game name.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Going to answer Poirot first and then get back to digging into xvart's post about quadz.
(Unless otherwise stated, all quotes are from Poirot in Post #329)
Point to you, I can be fanatical about a person I am convinced is scum.And there you have it. I still don't know if you're just being a fanatic...
As to a KageLord lynch, I'm almost ready to back off that now. Here is why.
That is my post to you Poirot but with the hope that KG would try and do something with it. And he did here:Me(Oso)-Post #282 wrote:If you want an informational lynch then call for one. And if you are going to use a flip to try and determine my alignment then I suggest it be KageLord, that way you can use 'killed a townie or bussed a partner' no matter what happens. Might be easier too as you can start planning posts for either eventuality now and not wait for the flip.
Why wait to post this as long as I did? I wanted to see how you reacted to that post (#282) as well AND I'd really like to have jay back in here to explain his last before try to solidify any reads I have on you Poirot (or jay as well. I have you pegged as suspicious based on Friend's play mainly and jay is a town read up to the moment of his last).KageLord Post #283 wrote:Edit after preview: Again, I think a vezo lynch would provide just as much, if not more, information as my lynch. The vezo lynch has the added bonus of having a firm case against the lynchee other than "gut" and "information". If you're so adamant on getting that information, Oso, and you don't care whether vezo is scum or town, why not lynch vezo and use that in your case against me (and possibly Poirot as well) in the unlikely event that he flips town? Since you already got some attention in this wagon, imagine how much support you could get if the one I focused the most on was a townie.
Getting back to KG. He did react to that post but not as expected. Up to this point, I've made no bones about the fact I'd be happy to see him lynched. Several people have expressed doubts my about using subjective reasoning (gut, intuition) in my regards to KG. Fair enough. I tried to find some way to get some objective evidence (that I could use) against him to go along with it.
Short version, neither one of you reacted the way I thought you would to that post. KG reacted way off if he were scum. He stays with his focus on vezo as his lynch when there is a perfect opportunity there for him (or any one else for that matter) to go off on the misrep of you in that post. Plus he goes on to invite me to be free to use it against him (and you) if he was wrong. Taken in context with the post of his I picked apart, that is enough for me to switch him back to the neutral category. My overallimpressionof his posts have changed from 'likely scum piling on as many crap reasons as possible' to 'maybe he is unsure town'. One thing that it did convince me of is that if he does flip scum, then you aren't. He tied himself to you to closely on that one.
And you Poirot, you had ample opportunity to go off on me as well in a big way, but you didn't. No one would thought anything about OMGUS if you had taken your vote off of quadz and pushed me. You didn't. You even gave me an out to use. Scum, at least in my experience, don't do that for others.
I'm not 100% convinced either or both of you are town but the odds of either of you being scum, by my way of thinking, have greatly diminished. I am certain enough the say that you guys aren't scum together though.
Last thought, this is something I didn't want to point to before. Vezo's softclaim? breadcrumb? here and KG's pointing at it out in the very last part of his post here. I noticed vezo's post there as well and almost joined KG in asking for an explanation. I didn't because by that point he(vezo) had answered it sort of. I checked several times to make sure I wasn't missing something and all vezo does is explain the second line of the post.
I had noticed what vezo said, I also know KG saw it as he pointed it out. But he didn't pursue it. No one else did either so I made a snap assumption (hope maybe) that perhaps no one else, other than KG and myself, had seen it either. That was blown out the window when Poirot said this:
So I'm going to go ahead and think almost everyone saw it for what I think it was: A breadcrumb/softclaim. The only reason that made sense to me was that KG came to the same conclusion but instead of backing off if he was town and he thought that pointing to a softclaim of someone might tip off others, he continues to attack veso but without referring back to it. I came up with several scenarios as to why I might do it. The one that stood the most was that if given long enough, with the way vezo is playing, there will be ample fuel to make a case that vezo is scum/lying rather town/claiming when it comes down to an RC. Points to the fact that only scum would go ahead and hope that someone didn't see it and still keep attacking vezo. If he were town and thought vezo was scum setting up a breadcrumb for lying on an RC, hammer that softclaim hard would have been the way to go. If he thought vezo was setting up a legitimate breadcrumb then as town, he would have stilled ignored it but he would have found a way to get off of vezo.I won't be sad if they lynch you, even if you are a PR which you sometimes seem to be softclaiming.
Naturally, I didn't point that out in my attacks on KG because I myself hoped that no one had seen it or had dismissed it, since I already had suspicions of KG and to a lesser extent Poirot, I went with the town side of the argument in vezo's favor. So time to cover the PR and get the scum lynched who is sandbagging him in the process.
Now that is out I have a question for KG before I actually go so far as to unvote him.
Why did you post this:
And never follow up on it?KageLord-Post #156 wrote:Well, this is either everything or nothing. I can think of only one logical explanation that doesn't involve vezo being a PR (scum or town), though it does involve some strange wording on vezo's part. However, I don't want to say it and I don't want anyone else, other than vezo, to. So, vezo, what did you mean by the bolded?Plus, I'm not sure who you actually questioned here, other than asking Friend his top suspects.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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@xvart.
Hopefully my last post will answer some of your concerns about myself before I can address this directly.xvart wrote:@Oso - Read the information below. Do you really feel that your suspicions of KageLord outweigh quadz's logic for his lynch preferences? If you think quadz is justified in his preference, why do you think quadz believes vezok is more suspicious than me? Also, why is your case stronger than what I have outlined?My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Ok,
I can buy that. If nothing else it explains why you would ignore it and still keep after vezo if you were town, at least by my way of thinking. It probably goes without saying but I'll say it anyway: I've still got my eye on you.KageLord wrote:
I didn't follow up on it because vezok's response was a possible one. The logical explanation I mentioned in that post was that vezok meant "tonight" as in real-time and not in-game. That is the explanation that vezok ended up giving, so I dropped it. But, now that vezok has seemingly softclaimed since then, my original assumption about the meaning of vezok's post makes a lot more sense. The only question now is what to do about it.Oso wrote:Now that is out I have a question for KG before I actually go so far as to unvote him.
Why did you post this:
And never follow up on it?KageLord-Post #156 wrote:Well, this is either everything or nothing. I can think of only one logical explanation that doesn't involve vezo being a PR (scum or town), though it does involve some strange wording on vezo's part. However, I don't want to say it and I don't want anyone else, other than vezo, to. So, vezo, what did you mean by the bolded? Plus, I'm not sure who you actually questioned here, other than asking Friend his top suspects.
UNVOTE: KageLord
quadz, is another matter. I'm stubborn, as I think I've just shown and it will take just about as much to blast him out of my town read as it did to blast KageLord out of a "lynch him, like now" read. The main difference here is that I have been picking KageLord's (and to a lesser extent Poirot's) posts apart letter by letter and let everyone go about their business. So quadz (and everyone else) has gotten much less scrutiny by me than those two.
xvart makes a good case. At no point does his reasoning seem forced or that he's reaching. Grasping at straws is the term a few have used at various times in the thread. I don't see that with xvart's case on quadz.
With a nod to q21's caution about xvart's reasoning also being valid for xvart/quadz team as well as it does for a SSBF/quadz team, I'll:
VOTE: quadz
As stated, xvart makes a good case and instead of rehashing it and pointing out specifically what I like or dislike about any point, I'll say that quadz responses to xvart's (and other's) questions and points have been unsatisfactory.
Finally this:
He's put himself on the line with that post and that does give him a lot of points with me. For consistency's sake, the impression I get is that xvart is doing this honestly because there is no indication, to me, that he simply going after a weak town player (an option I had considered) but rather that he honestly thinks he has caught scum. And I agree.xvart wrote:Now this is a good observation, and I encourage you to follow it. As I've said before when I preempted my suspicions of SSBF, as long as quadz gets the noose today we can debate his partners tomorrow.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Don't want to get accused of trying to rush things but:
From totallynotmafia's lats votal: Deadline is July 26, 10:30 AM (GMT + 10:00).
Unless I have completely hosed up the time conversion, that is just about 24 hours from now.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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A no NK Night 1?
Wonderful.
I mean it is good as we have no dead townie but we also have no usable information from the night really.
1 - Mafia decided not to kill.
2 - Mafia hit a bulletproof role.
3 - Doctor made a successful save.
(those are the three I can come up with off the top of my head that don't complicate my thinking too much)
Don't expect much out of me for the next day or so. Going to back and completely tear apart Day 1 and see if I can get any of those three options to make sense. Or perhaps add other options to it.
@Diddin (sorry can't let this go by) why Friend replaced out of this gameDOESN'T BELONG HERE AS ANY SORT OF EVIDENCE OF ALIGNMENT. Unless you absolutely know why he replaced out, then it still doesn't belong in the thread at least in my opinion.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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1 - Possible, although I can't figure out why they would. Best I could come up with is an NK immune Godfather they are setting up for a Iron Townie claim in case there is a Vig that happens to tag him and he doesn't die.I said wrote:..
1 - Mafia decided not to kill.
2 - Mafia hit a bulletproof role.
3 - Doctor made a successful save.
(those are the three I can come up with off the top of my head that don't complicate my thinking too much)
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2 - No way in hell to tell at this point. Also, see number 1.
3 - Again possible and that's all I will say about except that if there IS a doc and you did protect someone last night, you might want to speak up if we if are going to lynch your protectee. Good chance with no night kill that you may have blocked a Mafia kill and we are about to lynch a townie.
VOTE: vezo
Yesterday, I went some lengths to create static for you because I thought you had soft claimed. My reasoning is in the last half of this post and the main reason I went after KageLord as hard as I did. So I don't care if it is considered role-fishing, I'd like a claim from you sometime today. Easy if possible, but I think there is enough support for pressuring you to L-1 for a claim if you want to go that route.
Poirot might have started it, xvart might have solidified it but you(vezo), q21, myself and diddin are on the hook for quadz's lynch. I'm discounting Tazaro at this moment because even though he did hammer, KageLord had already confirmed his intention to hammer so there was no need for scum to do it at that point, to beat the deadline. We four are the ones that made that lynch possible.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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@KageLord. The Godfather Role is a scum role that is usually investigation immune and in some cases I've seen, also night kill immune (Iron if you will although I don't think that term is in common use use here. Bulletproof is favored). A good example of both roles (Godfather, Bulletproof Townie) are in the role descriptions in this post of Mini #714 (near the bottom of the post) and the QT of the game here (post #10) to see how scum planned on using the BP townie role to cover the GF if you are interested. (This game is over by the way, topic locked well over a year ago)
Back on the game here though, some(most) of that post is mainly me talking out loud to myself, it helps to clarify my thoughts so be careful using any of that speculation for your own use unless it you see something that makes any of it make sense to you.
As to the Doc claiming if we are about to lynch a protectee, you are right. I didn't come right out and say it but yeah, if that situation comes up and the Doc (if there is one) determines it's not in the town's interest to speak up that's something best left to the player to figure out. That's why I didn't go any deeper into the reasoning than I did.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I'm still doing a bit of review myself so I'll have a more substantial post by this time tomorrow.
But what KG just said. I had a town read on Tasky pretty much that carried over to you Tazaro. Have to be honest, you pulled that right back to the lower side of neutral with that hammer.
This is mainly curiosity, why didn't you let KG hammer? He had already said that he would hammer before deadline. Or had gotten that far in your read through before you hammered?My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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And I guess I get a double post myself here.
@Aranneas. Do you have anything at all on why jay posted this: (Post-237)Unvote: Vote: Humble Poirot
Humble is 100% scum, confirmed..B4 you all ask me how and why I AM 10000% about this..I will not roleclaim.....also after he is lynched and flips scum, please can I get protected tonight for obvious reasons, thanks...1 scum down!My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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@Sotty
Alot of that has to do with the question I asked Tazaro. He missed the post where KageLord said he would hammer and I have no reason to disbelieve that's true. Pretty much takes my read on that player slot back to where it was as the hammer is null in my mind now. New player, near deadline, things get rushed as obviously reading and digesting 16+ pages of posts that close to deadline isn't something easily done in a short time...
I saw Oso comment on the fact Tazaro's hammer demises his town read on that slot, but I don't understand it. Someone was going to hammer, whether it be Kage, myself or Tazaro, someone had too. ...My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Ok, I guess the easiest way to clarify my thoughts is the game state at lynch yesterday.
Aranneas(jayfl383)- MIA at the time. Vote on Poirot, no chance that will change before lynch.
Sooty7/KageLord- Vote on Diddin(Sooty) and vezo(KG). No reason to expect, at least in my opinion, that their votes would move off those players other than to avoid a no lynch. (Both stated that in posts).
SSBF- Vote on Vezo. Read him in ISO and going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think his vote would have changed even to avoid a no-lynch (@SSBF, if you did say that you would hammer to prevent no-lynch I missed it. Point out where and I'll retract this). Pretty much has stuck to a vezo lynch and I got the impression nothing was budging him off that for Day 1. Reinforced by the fact he is back on vezo today.
This (Post 421):
Bugs me. Granted, uncontrolled, public speculation of why it happened would be harmful at this point but complete unconcern would be equally as harmful. Something happened in the game that is not normal for night one of a mafia game. If nothing else, acknowledging that fact and getting people to think as to reasons WHY it might have happened is a good thing even though over-discussing it in the thread at this point would be counter productive. Everyone should be giving considerable thought on reasons why it may have happened, in my opinion, and trying to see if they can make those reasons fit even if they don't want them discussed right now. So for that comment, my estimation of his alignment took a slight hit.SSBF wrote:...
3. We should not be concerned about a lack of a Night Kill on a townie.
quadz08- Dead but vote on vezo. No chance of a vote change on to his own wagon.
Those voting quadz
Poirot- Started the wagon on quadz. While I can't see anything overtly scummy about his reasons, my tirade against him yesterday wasn't completely baseless in my mind. The main point was to go a bit around the bend to specifically see what KG and Poirot would do with it but also, I got the distinct feeling that while he thought part of my reasoning on KG was bogus for going after KG, he felt that same reasoning was just fine for going after quadz. Also, this:
Since that was the post he addressed my case against KG I can only assume that he was asking vezo (and anyone else who read the post) to at least consider that I was doing the same thing to KG. I expect that to come up again if KG is ever NKed or lynched and flips town and I am still around.Poirot - Post 278, beginning portion wrote:vezokpiraka wrote: KageLord?
Yes.
He is trying to hard to paint someone scum. (I E : When I SSBF posted before me he made a pretty big case saying I am scum just because of that.) I just found this scum hunting tehnique a few days ago and it never proved me wrong. People who try too hard to make someone seem scummy are usually scum.
...
Is he the only one doing that? The only one trying hard to paint someone as scum?
So yeah, Poirot isn't high on my list of who might be town at the moment. I did give serious consideration to what Sooty7 said about him considering the 'Oso vs Poirot by play' as a town vs town fight to the death though. And since Sotty is outside the argument and has a different perspective than I do, I'm willing to grant at the moment he may have a point.
xvart- Not much to say here. I'm of the opinion that especially on day 1, town lynches town and scum don't really have to do much but push it along here and there. That's my call right now on xvart, he made a good case on a person he thought stood a good chance to be scum. He was wrong though but as I said yesterday, doesn't seem like a typical scum case built up to lynch a weak townie. Struck me as a town case that was wrong.
vezo- Basically gave his vote to the quadz lynch, in my opinion, because it was the easiest thing to do at that point. Never pulled it off and is the single most scummiest vote on the quadz wagon. This is why my vote is staying on vezo at the moment. He had the scummiest reason (in this case, pretty much no reason) to be voting quadz. AND ALSO because of the confusion yesterday around several people thinking he had softclaimed a PR, I want to get rid of that confusion today. Outing a town PR in vezo's case, carries less risk to town than continuing without a claim. He's a scum magnet right now because of his play so far and I'd like to know for myself what role he would claim (or is). It would go a long way clearing up some of the static I am getting about my reads on other players based off of him.
q21/myself- Lumping us both together and yes, I am including myself here. Considerably less scummy votes than vezo's but still not great. Not going to dig into the point by point differences here but we both (I know I did and I'm guessing that q21's thinking was similar based on his vote post) basically took a look at what already had been presented against quadz08, who presented it, called it good and voted.
diddin- Hard to read this, Starts off the day voting Tasky, switches to vezo, switches to SSBF and ends the day on quadz. His posts may be inconsistent but his late day votes aren't. Post 294 he list his top three scum suspects and SSBF is first and quadz second. With xvart's comments on using quadz's meta to connect him with SSBF (NOTE: Before anyone reads into that, xvart had quadz as scum independent of meta. He only used meta to connect with SSBF if I understood him correctly) I see no real inconsistency with him switching to suspect #2 when it becomes apparent that suspect #1 isn't going anywhere. Especially that late in the day especially as he been shown a method that strengthens his read on suspect #1 if suspect #2 flips scum.
Tazaro- No read/ weak town read as a holdover from Tasky. I don't like the way he came in and hammered but that is not game related so I switched him back to the read I had before he hammered.
So, vezo is where my vote stays at the moment. I realize that I am voting him more for a claim than as a potential lynch so that might be considered scummy/role-fishing but there it is.
Second and third in my book right now? SSBF and perhaps Poirot or Diddin. Not sure I'd want to lynch any of them three at the moment though although putting any one of those three under the microscope and pressurizing them (like what is happening to Diddin at the moment) is OKfine by me.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Ok. As promised, I take that back. No excuse as to why I didn't see it other than 'skimming is not equal to reading'. I find I'm actually doing the first when I think I'm doing the second on occasion.Super Smash Bros. Fan wrote:
I think I said a few times that I would hammer quadz08 if it became apperent that he was going to be lynched. This is what I could find in my ISO:Oso wrote:Vote on Vezo. Read him in ISO and going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think his vote would have changed even to avoid a no-lynch(@SSBF, if you did say that you would hammer to prevent no-lynch I missed it. Point out where and I'll retract this). Pretty much has stuck to a vezo lynch and I got the impression nothing was budging him off that for Day 1. Reinforced by the fact he is back on vezo today.Me wrote:Willing to lynch him if vezokpiraka doesn't ge through ToDay.
This means that I was willing to hammer quadz08 if his lynch became certain. Had I gotten up early enough at the day of the deadline, I would have placed the hammer on quadz08 before Tazaro did to prevent a No Lynch. Just because a person is not my top suspect doesn't mean I'm going to let a No Lynch go through, especially when it's a person I already thought was scummy.Me wrote:Since he is at L-1, I am still willing to hammer if it becomes certain that quadz08 is the play for ToDay.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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I confirm the Neighbor part of his role claim.
Diddin, myself and Poirot are indeed neighbors with each other but we areunconfirmedas far as alignment with each other.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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I personally have no problem doing that. Basically, since we are all unconfirmed as to alignment, there isn't a whole lot of trust in there.
The beginning of the night was a few posts about how that trust might be built. Not many ideas other than if one of us is flipped or NKed and that person turns out town, that the other two out their their status and go at each other based on the assumption that there is one scum in the group.
Also some discussion between myself and diddin about hiding/revealing our neighbor status during role claims (Poirot was absent in this discussion as he had been absent except for the first real-life day of night 1. He mentioned internet problems in his last post, so that makes sense)
I did a wagon analysis that is close (but not exactly the same) as the one I walled here for you folks.
Also, Poirot said he would post an analysis but didn't (he mentioned internet problems in his last post, so that makes sense)
Also, I will say that of the suspects he(diddin) had any sort of bad read on, only 2 (xvart and vezo) were on the quadz wagon yesterday.
If I misread/misunderstood anything from last night, Piorot and diddin, sing out.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Yes we were and nothing of substance was said. Mainly jokes and hellos.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Not in the pre-game talk. The only thing that might be taken as game related pre-game was myself speculating on there being 4 groups of 3 player neighbors. I have never played in a game with this mechanic before.
Friend told me that wasn't how it usually worked.
The only time the word "scum" was used was by friend in relation to playing a board game. He said he'd play but not with scum.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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There was really no general agreement on if that was true but rather an assumption we all made and acknowledged. The basic 'careful what you say, scum may be listening', 'anything said in here might come back and haunt you later in game and used against you', 'don't lie in relation to the neighbor's mechanic as that would give scum an opening to attack you through a "half-truth" argument in your RC'. Almost like 3 strangers meeting for the first time and wanting to be able to trust each other but not quite willing yet to make the leap because there is good reasons not to trust each other.
To clarify for my own part in this.
While I find it likely that there may one scum in among the neighbors, I am by no means convinced it has to be so. Not going to try and read tnm's mind but I can see where adding three townies into a neighbor group can add a new dynamic.
Unconfirmed in a group automatically breeds distrust and the smaller the group, the higher the level of distrust. It adds a background layer of by-play that could be possibly seen in thread but with no context it would likely strike odd bells and probably set off a player's (or two or three player's) scumdar based on something they see happening but no way to account for it.
So no, for my part, I'm not ready to believe that there is definitely scum among the three of us any more than I am ready to believe we are all townies. Going to need some help from the game thread and you folks for us to figure that out.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Not really.
I don't know diddin's experience with mafia. Going by his join date here on mafiascum I'm assuming he has a basic understanding of how mafia works but in the night talk, and here in the thread I get the impression he still might not be completely comfortable with the game yet. Don't want to give anyone a newbie card to play but for myself, I have a hard time distinguishing between players that are giving scum reads because they are scum or because they aren't quite comfortable with the game of mafia yet.
That being said, I believe his claim because it does fall right into line with I have seen (and used to do myself) with someone who is familiar but inexperienced with mafia that has a town power role.
Poirot is slightly different but it really has nothing to do with the way Poirot has played (other than what I said about him in my wagon analysis of yesterday's lynch) but with friend before he replaced out. Still can't put my finger on it though so I've pretty much dismissed it but since the neighbor mechanic is out can someone do me a favor and look at friend and his interplay between myself/him and diddin and see if you get any impression at all that he was trying to start shit between diddin and me? Or buddy up to one of us at the expense of of the other?
I'm going to guess that you probably don't and I can dismiss that as being overly paranoid.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Yeah, that was trigger. But like I stated, I am pretty paranoid about the whole neighbors mechanic so I've probably over thought the whole thing by this point.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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No, I don't. On reflection, I realized that the negative I got out of it was based on something that had nothing to do with the game. I thought it was rude (apologies to Tazaro) mainly because that was pretty much his first game post. His response showed me that he missed the part where KG said he would hammer before deadline so I nulled out the read. Scum, I would think, would go out of their way to avoid being the hammer on a townie unless they were very secure that it wouldn't come back to haunt them and being a new replacement into the game, Tazaro has a perfect opportunity to lay low that close to deadline and put off participating until the start of the Day 2 and avoid the issue altogether.Sotty wrote:Oso, just to clarify here, you no longer find Tazaro's hammer scummy?
As to Diddin, from the nighttalk, I get nothing that says he is anything other than what he says he is. While outing the neighbor mechanic was discussed in regards to RCs, no one claimed or alluded to a role of any kind in any of the talk.
I'm going to accept his RC for the moment. Several reasons, mainly because it does fit in with no NK last night. It's muddled though because it's impossible to tell if his action protected you or prevented you and there is no way he or anyone else in the thread, other than scum, can say for certain if his action prevented a kill on you or prevented you from doing something. And the fact that there is no sort of counter (yet anyway) to his role which is basically a Doctor on steroids makes is more than likely he is telling the truth.
And you hit it on the head, there is zero amount of trust in the neighbors night thread but alot of that can be logged off to Poirot not having access/limited access during the night and we were minus the third neighbor but I got a generally positive feeling from diddin. He didn't seem to be cadging or evasive or manipulative in anything we talked about. Didn't try to hatch any plots is what I'm saying.
The only thing that struck me as off is that he asked if we should hide our neighbor status if forced to RC. But seeing as how we are a group, even if unconfirmed with each other, not so much off that it worries me too much. The 'semi-informed minority' is a cool thing and it's natural to want to conceal that where possible.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Go to bed and see what happens.
I think vezo is saying that only KG targeted me right vezo? If it had been 2 then I take it vezo would have started the day claiming and showing results?
@KG, I don't see how giving any results could hurt me or town. I think you should go ahead and claim. But if you want to hold off and give a few more people an chance to chime in that is fine by me. I have to go back to Poirot's post from last night and read from there again. A lot was posted in 8 or so hours.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Ok, after a quick read through.
Diddin, I'm willing to believe at the moment.
Vezo, if he has true claimed then only one, AS IN A SINGLE PLAYER, targeted me so if KageLord can come up with some way to show he wasn't blocked then I wasn't targeted for an NK last night as I AM NOT DEAD.
KageLord, see above.
Please, start focusing people, we have 2 claimed PRs, 1 Unclaimed PR and a whole lot of rubbish and good information that might contain some gold in it somewhere. I'ma throw in with Sotty and xvart at the moment and make a suggestion. Take as many theories as you want and go back to diddin's claim (or even the start of Day 2) and read from there (that's what I'm going to do and I have a couple of whopper theories myself) and then see if they fit.
/me goes back to reading
[Edit after preview]I see KG addressed about not being blocked so for now, I'd say really like to know what his targeting me revealed to him. But it can wait until we have sorted through some other things first, in my opinion. There is enough in the thread as it stands right now to keep us busy for the moment without adding more.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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EBWOP should have included this above.
@KG and vezo, if I missed this or haven't gotten to it yet then I apologize but..
Why me?My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I know that was directed at vezo but I'll go ahead and answer it anyway. Nothing happened to me last night from my point of view.xvart wrote:You should have tried to fish out if Oso had anything happen to him last night first.
To the rest, I'ma go out on a limb here and believe that both vezo and diddin are true claiming so I'm going to take them off my list of potential for today. Why? They are both town roles and with no counters there is absolutely no basis to lynch the claim. We know that if vezo is lying, then KG is as well but since KG did confirm that he targeted me then vezo's claim is probably true (no matter what you may think of vezo's play up to this point) if you grant that they are not partners. The only way to tell would be to flip one of them and I am not in favor of doing that today unless we get close to the end of the day an KG hasn't claimed his role.
Yes, I do want KG to claim his role before the day is out for one very basic reason. He targeted me and I want to know what he got out of it before I get lynched or NKed. Whether it is in the town's best interest or not, I don't really give a fuck at the moment. Town in this game gives every indication that is well along the road to self-destructing and scum isn't going to have to do much more than sit back and laugh their ass off. Best I think I can hope for is to try and help get one of them before they make a concerted effort to start eliminating the players that are an actual danger to them.
Having said that (and yes, I do see the irony of doing this after my last sentence)
VOTE: Sotty7
As I said, I'm going to go ahead an believe diddin and vezo. We have KG outed as a PR but no claim as yet. That is 3 PRs outed and none of them contested (pending KG full claim that is).
So, unless town is way overpowered in this game for some reason one of them is lying OR diddin managed to prevent the mafia night killer instead of protecting a target of the NK. quadz flipped as a VT so we know this isn't a non-vanilla game. We have too many PRs if Sotty is not scum. This is a start to trying to prove/disprove the various claims we have out here.
If you guys can come up with a way to do this without lynching either the claims or the targets, I'm all ears.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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Nope, process of elimination and borrowing some of the thinking on a cop claim with a result. If you grant (and I have at the moment) that diddin, vezo and KG are all town PRs, then the likelihood that diidin prevented a kill rather than protected a target goes way up, at least in my opinion.
I'm wanting to test diddin's claim in the same way we test a cop's claim and investigation. By lynching the target, regardless of the previous reads of the players involved.My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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- Location: Northern California
I quote myself.
And to answer you, I think it does. I repeat, there are too many PRs, in my opinion, in this game if you are not scum. I'd like to test that but I will go so far as to say that I'm not married to lynching you to test diddin's claim (I really don't want to lynch one of the few players I'm actually enjoying playing with until the need is apparent). Since KG and veso both targetted the same person(me) I'm also open to arguments that is some sort of set up but alot of that has to do with the question I asked them earlier, why target me?Oso wrote:If you guys can come up with a way to do this without lynching either the claims or the targets, I'm all ears.
In this case, I'd rather go after one of the claims rather than the targets but there is no basis. Cases could be made against both diddin and vezo because of their play but their play isn't bad enough to override the claims at this point. Neither have been countered, neither has been proven to have lied about their roles. KageLord is in limbo because we know from vezo and KG himself that is a PR just not what sort of PR.
Maybe ignoring the claims at this point and just going with the players that aren't claimed is the better play, I don't know. Any suggestions?My Uncle always use'ta say, 'You can't get no blood from a turnip.' .... He'd say the same thing about gettin' it from a stone, too.
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I never said nothin' back to him. You don't want mess with no freak that's searchin' around that hard for blood.-
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Oso Goon
- Goon
- Goon
- Posts: 873
- Joined: November 27, 2008
- Location: Northern California