Mini 931: Supreme Court Mafia (Game Over post 682)
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Alright! Welcome to the game. This should be pretty interesting. Let's get started with a few questions:
1) How much experience do you have playing Mafia?
2) How would you describe your playstyle?
3) What do you value the most in making decisions in Mafia?
4) Do you expect the Spanish Inquisition?
5) Do you prefer playing as mafia or as town?
6) How many games are you playing in at the moment?
7) What do you consider to be your greatest strength as town? As mafia?
I will answer once answers have been collected from all other players.
I also choose not to randomly vote.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Well, as a matter of full disclosure, I *am* a law student, so if you end up with any law questions, let me know...My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I usually try to open my games with questions as I find that they lead to a much more productive and deliberate day 1. I usually answer last because, if I don't, several people will basically parrot my answers. I'm a 1L at Mercer - are you in law school/looking at it?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Just off the top of my head - Martin v. Hunter's Lessee - the Supreme Court has the ability to overturn state court decisions where they are in conflict with the constitution, Nixon v. US - There is no executive power for the President to withhold documents except in limited circumstances, The Slaughterhouse Cases - The Privileges and Immunities Clause does not necessarily incorporate all rights of the 14th Amendment as binding on the states. That being said, I'm taking Constitutional Law now.Green Crayons wrote:Unless if it's a big case that everyone learns about in 8th grade Social Students (Brown v. Board of Education, etc.) or a case that is especially important to a lawyer's specific field of law (and even then, it'd have to be an incredibly important and/or recent case), nobody here can recite to you the findings of a SC case off of the top of their head, either. I just did a five minute google look-up to see the history of the case - something anyone from anywhere can do, no intricate knowledge of the US Supreme Court needed.
Well, sure, they can parrot somebody else's answers...but I've noticed a unique pattern that sometimes happens when mafia players answer the questions. I'll explain exactly what I'm looking for at the end. While they still could parrot someone else's answers, it doesn't necessarily interfere with what I'm looking for here.Green Crayons wrote:What's to stop them for parroting someone else's answers? Regardless of whose answers are being parroted, couldn't you just call the parrot out on his parroting? (parrot parrot parrot parrot!)
I'm still curious: Are you going to base your non-random vote off of the answers themselves (as your first post seemed to indicate)? Or am I just extrapolating too much from the juxtaposition of those two phrases?
And yes, my first vote will be based on the information gained from answering the questions.
Awesome. I'll IM with you and chat a bit more about it...Green Crayons wrote:Heading off to W&M in August.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I'd really like to hear from Jack and DLA before I post my analysis, but if I don't get anything by lunch, I might go ahead and do it anyway.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Alright. The reasons that I asked each of the questions:
1) How much experience do you have playing Mafia? - 2 reasons: to get an experience read on each player and to start out with an easy question to make the answerer more at ease with answering.
2) How would you describe your playstyle? I asked this because I like to compare what players are saying with what they describe their playstyle as - it helps show where they have to depart from it to paint someone in a wrong light.
3) What do you value the most in making decisions in Mafia? I asked this for the above reason and to also see how willing everybody is to cooperate.
4) Do you expect the Spanish Inquisition? I asked this to throw an easy question in the middle to put the player back at ease again.
5) Do you prefer playing as mafia or as town? This helps me read whether a flake is due to not liking the role or to genuine inactivity.
6) How many games are you playing in at the moment? Another easier question, and it also bears on the flaking question.
7) What do you consider to be your greatest strength as town? As mafia? See 3.
I also ask all of these questions to get a read on how each player approaches a problem - specifically, a question presented by a player of unknown alignment. Pro-town players generally answer helpfully while scum often try to avoid the question. Alternatively, scum can try to be extremely overeager to please a player that they know is town-aligned.
My answers are as follows:
1) How much experience do you have playing Mafia? I've played in roughly 15 games since September 2009.
2) How would you describe your playstyle? I favor logic greatly. It's taken me a while to develop my playstyle, as evidenced by my poor 28% win ratio - I blame a lot of this on the fact that the RVS is incredibly poor to my playstyle, hence why I try to start with questions and proceed in a more orderly fashion. I really hate playing by gut - I understand that a certain amount of it is necessary, but I need to be convinced to adopt a position.
3) What do you value the most in making decisions in Mafia? As above, I value logic and reasoning. Often, scum will hide behind vague and uncertain terms, and often scum hate taking firm stances as it locks them down and may open them up to attack later.
4) Do you expect the Spanish Inquisition? As many players noted, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
5) Do you prefer playing as mafia or as town? This is a toss-up, in my opinion. I'd actually say that I prefer playing as mafia, just because I actually feel more at ease about making cases, since there's no pressure to be right. That being said, I really enjoy the challenge of town play as well.
6) How many games are you playing in at the moment? I am playing in 6 games and modding 1.
7) What do you consider to be your greatest strength as town? As mafia? As town: a firm, logical style that presents results which are easier to follow than vague gut reads. As mafia: a playstyle that doesn't change much based on alignment and the ability to easily make cases sound good.
Analysis of player answers:
Pwnman: Seems pretty defensive, especially in question 7. Light scum read.
Pman: Overall, good, well-reasoned answers that don't appear to be too deviant in either direction. Light town read.
Darox: I can't shake the feeling that he's hiding something, especially with question 7 - his terse responses indicate that he's trying to be extremely careful about what he says. Scum read.
Bub: Again, it seems that he's hiding something, but I'm not sure if that's just a newbie town read or a scum read. It doesn't seem to be as serious as Darox's. Light scum read.
Dry-fit: While short, his answers don't seem to be trying to hide anything.
Fishy: Good post with some good analysis of the other players' answers at the end. Town read.
Jason: Honest answers that present weaknesses well in a candid way that I wouldn't expect a scum player to use. Town read.
Green crayons: See Dry-fit. The answers are short, but they don't seem to be trying to obfuscate the matter.
Yosarian: Until Q7, he's extremely short, but his answer to 7 is pretty open and honest. Light town read.
Jack: Very short, hard to read. Due to the SK comment, I'm going to put him at a light scum read.
DLA: Null, honestly, I could see his answers coming from either faction.
To recap, my inital reads are:
Town:
Green Crayons
Dry-fit
Fishy
Jason
Light town:
Pman
Yosarian
Null:
DLA
Light scum:
Pwnman
Bub
Jack
Scum:
Darox
Vote: Darox
Please note that these are just initial reads based on flimsy evidence. They will vary widely in the early game until they solidify later.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Jack: I missed it because I did the analysis in two batches - I read the first few responses before class and the second set afterwards. If you notice, however, I came to pretty much the same results on both reads, except for the fact that you had made additional posts which pushed you into the scum category.
Pman: Then expect a lot of votes from me. Withholding reasoning is scummy, providing good reasoning is town.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Green Crayon: This is a relatively new thing that I've been trying, so most of the games are in progress. There's one really good example, though:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12735
It leads to a D1 mislynch, sadly, but I feel that it was that start that helped us lynch correctly on days 2 and 4. It's working significantly better since that first game as I've been refining the questions and watching more closely the results.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Oh, you should take it with a few pounds of salt. The end result is the same: it gets people talking. The bonus is, in my opinion, that it avoids the capriciousness of the normal newbie lynch on D1. I wish I could link you to ongoing games - like I said, the ones that I'm in right now are faring much better with it.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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EBWODP: Let me put it in terms that you'll understand, Jack: Explain yourself, or you'll likely be the lynch. The town needs all information available to it, and we'll get it, whether it means hearing you out or lynching you.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Jack wrote:
I'm afraid you guys are on a need to know basis. And right now, you don't need to know.Green Crayons wrote:
I'm still curious where you determined the CIA agent is "obviously" the serial killer?Green Crayons wrote:
I'm sorry, where did it say that there is a serial killer?Jack wrote:Setup is interesting I think. The CIA agent is the serial killer obviously, but who are the mafia?
Honestly, these two posts are so scummy that I have trouble imagining any pro-town situation in which anything even resembling them might be used. I didn't vote for you earlier because I wanted to see whether or not you'd respond to the follow-up questions. You didn't. Now, I'm pretty much laying it in front of you: Would you rather be lynched, or would you rather answer?Jack wrote:You only think you do. I'm (apparently) the only one who sees that you don't.
What do you think of pwman? I think his vote and followup are odd.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Sure. In the game of Mafia, there are at least two groups: An uninformed majority and an informed minority. The informed minority is the mafia and the uninformed majority is the town. The town wins when they gain information. The scum wins when information remains hidden. You are hiding information. Therefore, you are pushing towards the scum goal.
If you said you'd rather be lynched, then I'd push for your lynch.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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I can think of no reason for your actions to date other than an anti-town alignment, be it SK or mafia. I truly do find you suspicious, and I ask you this: If you had no intent on following up your original post about the FBI, why did you make it in the first place? Surely you must have known that we'd ask about it. At the very least, give me a reason for your withholding of information.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Fishy: Sure, I can produce a scummy reason for Jack's actions. First, he is deliberately being confusing. Even if he is town, he would have had no other reason to bring up the matter in the first place. He is attempting to derail the game by his cryptic responses as well. Also, he is, I think, trying to benefit from early suspicion being cleared, which often means that the player will be looked at with less suspicion later in the game. If he establishes an extremely scummy style of play now, in the late game, if he plays in a more pro-town fashion, he will look much less like scum, regardless of his actual alignment. Thus, in a sense, it can be something of a protectionist move.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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pro·duce (pr-ds, -dys, pr-)
v. pro·duced, pro·duc·ing, pro·duc·es
v.tr.
1. To bring forth; yield
It is the reason that I found you scummy to begin with, I'm just bringing it forward now. Respond substantively.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I didn't bother to explicitly state it because I thought it was obvious. Answer the bloody question.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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I say that for things like Dry-fit's response, which shows a weakening towards your position because she apparently feels that you're just generally an anti-town player. Eventually, it builds up and you can get away with more...or you improve somewhat and remove all suspicion entirely.
ANSWER THE QUESTIONMy posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Of course I have, but you saidJack wrote:My conversation starters are soooo much more fun then question lists.
Have you read this bit from the OP netopolis?Battousai wrote:Someone in this room is trying to kill them, but the only people in the room that are not justices are the two attorneys and the secret service agent..CIAagent, not secret service. Why did you say that? If it was from the OP, why not just say that instead of saying that there's a reason but that we don't want to know it?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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What? That doesn't mesh with your later concealment. If you just lied this whole time, why the whole charade?
Confirm vote: JackMy posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Because it would change how everybody else answered. That's not an answer. Why did you make the claim to begin with?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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A person might have accidentally done that as an SK who has the CIA agent role and thought it was mentioned in the OP - if you notice, he doesn't realize until I point it out that the OP said secret service.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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He's right about that, at least. The Secret Service is under the Treasury Department.
So, wait. You decide that you're going to claim something that is a complete lie about the setup, breadcrumb a fake PR and then act like you're hiding informationin an attempt to start conversation? Am I understanding you correctly?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Hmm. I don't like how committal you're being here. I mean, it's really anti-town to take such a firm stance. Do you think you could waffle a bit more?Darox wrote:I don't think most of the people on his case are scum either, although it would hardly surprise me if at least one of them was.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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GC: I didn't call them out on the parroting because I felt it was one of those rare situations where a number of voices needed to be heard in a situation in order to convince someone to act. He wouldn't respond with just me, but he might if, say, 5 people push him to answer.
I still need to analyze Jack's post a bit better. I'll try to get that in tonight.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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I meant the question about the CIA Agent/Secret Service Agent, which he said he would refuse to answer.Yosarian2 wrote:
Um...I'm pretty sure he did answer your question, Neto, and he did so before bub made that post.Netopalis wrote:Not a problem, Bub. Anything to get him to finally answer.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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I'm willing to switch as I think this is all we're going to get out of Jack for now...But I'm still determining who I'm going to switch to, as there are a number of good candidates. I'm debating amongst Pwnman, DLA, Bub and Darok. Let me mull over this a bit, then I'll be back.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Yos: He spent the first 7 posts after we asked him intentionally and obviously avoiding making any sort of answer. He only claimed that discrepancy after I pointed it out. He then didn't give a solid reason as to why he made that statement if he knew it was false. There were a number of different questions, and throughout the day, it has been Jack's mantra that he won't answer anything.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis wrote:
Of course I have, but you saidJack wrote:My conversation starters are soooo much more fun then question lists.
Have you read this bit from the OP netopolis?Battousai wrote:Someone in this room is trying to kill them, but the only people in the room that are not justices are the two attorneys and the secret service agent..CIAagent, not secret service. Why did you say that? If it was from the OP, why not just say that instead of saying that there's a reason but that we don't want to know it?Jack wrote:You weren't far off in your suspicion Net. Except your confirmation bias was twisting it the wrong way (but conf bias is a town tell so it's ok).
That first post was my version of the conversation starter. The fact that there was no CIA agent in the setup gave me an "out" once the starter had run it's course. Proof that it wasn't a scumslip, basically. That it was just made up.Netopalis wrote:What? That doesn't mesh with your later concealment. If you just lied this whole time, why the whole charade?
Confirm vote: JackNetopalis wrote:Because it would change how everybody else answered. That's not an answer. Why did you make the claim to begin with?Bub Bidderskins wrote:Jack, whether or not Net made up the reason on the fly is irrelavent to the fact that you are still not answering the question. While I can see that possibly the secret service agent is the serial killer and the lawyers are the mafia, but how do youknowthat to be the case.
In other words:
ANSWER THE QUESTION
If you notice, there are still questions unanswered at this point. Yes, he eventually answers things...But he was still being intentionally obstructionist at the time of the posting.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Netopalis Mafia Scum
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Darox: At this point, I'm not planning on pushing it any further based on the limited information alone. I think he may very well still be scum,. but I know that pressing the case won't get us anywhere and I think I'll be able to prove it later after he posts more. If deadline were today and I could cast the deciding vote against any player, it would be him. That being said, I'm going to glance back through this and try to analyze a bit more on some other players; your post is excellent, by the way, and definitely nudges you town in my eyes.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Still here, just haven't seen a great deal to comment on. I'll look back over things again, though.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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So, I finally got around to looking at Bub in iso. I have a few interesting points.
1) Note how he says that Jack is town before I start hammering on Jack; he changes his position rather quickly then. Why? I can't find a good reason in the thread. Looks to me like an attempt to appear to be more town.
2) Read the following quote carefully.
This seems to imply that he knows that the researcher is town. How does he know this? Is it becauseBub Bidderskins wrote:
Yes, that's a very good point, given the nature of the set-up. It would probably be a lawyer (because lawyers have to do a ton of research), but then that means that either one of the justices has to be scum (possible godfather), or that the CIA agent is teamed up with the other lawyer, or both.Fishythefish wrote:Given the Researcher role, 5 votes could be L-1 for Jack or any other player. Noone should put people on 6 votes unless they are prepared to hammer a wagon.he's scum and knows all of the roles that scum have?See, when I read it, I thought first that it was probably more of a scum-aligned role.
I'm going to do a quick votecount and make sure that my vote won't hammer, because I'm not ready for that quite yet...My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Unvote, vote: Bub Budderskins
That's 4. It's either L-2 or L-1, depending on whether he was researched or not.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Fishy: Let me go ahead and throw out there that I have reason to believe that there are other people involved. I'd rather not say more, though.Fishythefish wrote:In the opening post, the mod gives a complete list of all roles in the game: some justices, a secret service agent and two lawyers. There is no general information about the presence or otherwise of a SK.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Not solely, it's in addition to the other stuff I mention in that post, the waffling, the unusual attacks and the other reasons that everybody else has mentioned to suspect you.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Camn,
My attacks on Jack were warranted. Jack made what could have been a scumslip. Additionally, the only way that a game progresses from its beginning is if pressure is applied to a player. Did I exert excessive pressure? Perhaps, but we got some excellent reactions - especially from Darklight and Bub. Therefore, I'm not entirely sure why you would find it to be scummy.
Also, how do you let Jason get away with a "prob-scum" read, when you list Bub as slight scum and Jack as either brilliant scum or failtown?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Do we really need to do this, Camn? Do wereallyneed to? Ellibereth decided before the game even started that he was going to attempt to bus me - it wasn't my decision, and frankly, I'm tired of hearing about that bloody game. Yeah, we won, but it's not a proud moment and I wish I'd never signed up. Either give substantive reasons for your comments here, or shut up.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Why should I be? As far as I'm concerned, it was one of my worst performances. At any rate, I've said my piece, and the ensuing pages haven't added much to my previous case.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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GC is certainly a big loss. Luckily, we didn't lose any power roles.
I'm going to do a few more iso reads...There are a few things that I noticed that were suspicious yesterday, and I need to double-check to make sure I'm on the right track.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Let's take a look at DLA:
1) Late to the party: DLA came in after the whole Jack snafu and attacked it doggedly, as if he were scum who saw an easy lynch target. Apparently, he was paying so little attention that he didn't realize that nobody else was still on that tack.
2) Content? What content?: Pretty self-explanatory. Aside from the stuff about Jack, DLA has said nothing of substance. Calling the stuff about Jack substance is stretching it.
3) Floating: DLA has done his best to avoid getting involved in heavily attacking anyone aside from Jack, an easy target. This is so that he can avoid the suspicion that attends those who make cases and later turn out to be wrong.
In short:Unvote, vote: DLAMy posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy....
Jack, please, please, please try to change your playstyle. I'm not sure whether he's scum or not, but I'd almost support a policy lynch at this point. Note the almost, but the point is there.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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Let's try a different approach.
Ok, we're on a need-to-know basis.
We need to know what you're hiding.
Simple enough?My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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I don't know that he is hiding anything. Ask him, he's the one implying that he's hiding something.My posts are best read in the calm, reassuring voice of Morgan Freeman. I don't sound anything like him, but they sound best that way.
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