Mini 931: Supreme Court Mafia (Game Over post 682)
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Jack Jack of All Trades
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Jack Jack of All Trades
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Quite a bit, around 2 years play on another site and 11 games here on MS, not including 3 mod abandoned games.1) How much experience do you have playing Mafia?
Varied. Long winded.2) How would you describe your playstyle?
Gut feeling3) What do you value the most in making decisions in Mafia?
Eh?4) Do you expect the Spanish Inquisition?
I prefer playing as scum. The fun part is trying to fool the other people, I find it more enjoyable than trying to not be fooled.5) Do you prefer playing as mafia or as town?
5, including this one.6) How many games are you playing in at the moment?
I'm usually good at avoiding suspicion, which is helpul for either faction.7) What do you consider to be your greatest strength as town? As mafia?-
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Jack Jack of All Trades
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I was skimming all the other answers and thought to myself "no one is really reading these". So I figured I'd test my theory and check how closely Netopolis was reading them too.Bub Bidderskins wrote:
Care to explain why you copy and pasted instead of actually answering the questions?Jack wrote:Hmm. I guess Net didn't notice that I didn't answer any of the questions myself--I copied and pasted the answers of other people.-
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I'm afraid you guys are on a need to know basis. And right now, you don't need to know.Green Crayons wrote:
I'm still curious where you determined the CIA agent is "obviously" the serial killer?Green Crayons wrote:
I'm sorry, where did it say that there is a serial killer?Jack wrote:Setup is interesting I think. The CIA agent is the serial killer obviously, but who are the mafia?-
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Well, I asked you what was suspicious. You haven't really answered, just said "these two posts". I presume a gut feel as well. Could you lay out the whole theory behind it to me?
If I said I'd rather be lynched would you think I'm mafia or town? I don't understand.Netopolis wrote:Now, I'm pretty much laying it in front of you: Would you rather be lynched, or would you rather answer?-
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What's your credit card number? I kid.Netopalis wrote:Sure. In the game of Mafia, there are at least two groups: An uninformed majority and an informed minority. The informed minority is the mafia and the uninformed majority is the town. The town wins when they gain information. The scum wins when information remains hidden. You are hiding information. Therefore, you are pushing towards the scum goal.
Lynching townies is a scum goal. So if you are trying for my lynch, should I say you are pushing towards a scum goal?
I think what you are saying here is too general. Town benefits from gaining information about player alignment. Not just any old information. Why am I as scum refusing to answer?
Applying these general paradigms (e.g. anti town is scummy) doesn't work well without a lot to flesh it out.
Because you'd think I was mafia or because you are annoyed? Are you just pressuring me or do you really think I'm suspicious?If you said you'd rather be lynched, then I'd push for your lynch.-
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1) I didn't copy and paste votespwnman wrote: Since when is 2 people voting a bandwagon? I was the second person on because Jack copied and pasted votes. Even if he hadn't done that I'd still be on now with his refusal to answer questions
2) I haven't refused to answer questions, only one question.
Vote:pwnman
So you came up with this one just now. You're making the logic fit the conclusion, then. Let's say I started (for some reason) with the conclusion that you were scum. In that light, your starting the game with the questions would be an attempt to make yourself look pro town and to control discussion early. You didn't notice my answers were copy pasted because you were scum faking suspicion on Darox. Now you think I know something about the setup that you don't, and as scum you want to know what it is, so you threaten to lynch me unless I spill the beans.Netopalis wrote:Fishy: Sure,I can producea scummy reason for Jack's actions. First, he is deliberately being confusing. Even if he is town, he would have had no other reason to bring up the matter in the first place. He is attempting to derail the game by his cryptic responses as well. Also, he is, I think, trying to benefit from early suspicion being cleared, which often means that the player will be looked at with less suspicion later in the game. If he establishes an extremely scummy style of play now, in the late game, if he plays in a more pro-town fashion, he will look much less like scum, regardless of his actual alignment. Thus, in a sense, it can be something of a protectionist move.
If you are town surely you can see how far astray starting with a conclusion and then finding a scum motive for someones behavior can take you.-
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You never said anything about this, even when asked. You "couldn't imagine any protown situation" and then I was scummy because I was "hiding information and working towards a scum goal" and then you "couldn't imagine a pro town situation" again.Netopalis wrote:pro·duce (pr-ds, -dys, pr-)
v. pro·duced, pro·duc·ing, pro·duc·es
v.tr.
1. To bring forth; yield
It is the reason that I found you scummy to begin with, I'm just bringing it forward now. Respond substantively.
So, you were "hiding information" from the town when you didn't mention this, yes?
btw, why do you think the "early suspicion will be cleared"?-
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It's not helpful, and available for all to see in any case.jasonT1981 wrote:
Well, you are already saying you have information that could be vitel to the town.Jack wrote:You had me at "light scum" after the SK comment, and were voting Darox. So it seems like just refusing to answer the question has put me above Darox for you, and indeed to the point where it is worthwhile lynching me "to get information"?
And refusing toJack wrote: I'm afraid you guys are on a need to know basis. And right now, you don't need to know.help the town with your information, you can see why the heat is on you, no? therefor if you won't give it up willingly, the lynch to get info maybe our only choice as regards to you for the best of the town,-
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Jack Jack of All Trades
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You weren't far off in your suspicion Net. Except your confirmation bias was twisting it the wrong way (but conf bias is a town tell so it's ok).
That first post was my version of the conversation starter. The fact that there was no CIA agent in the setup gave me an "out" once the starter had run it's course. Proof that it wasn't a scumslip, basically. That it was just made up.-
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It sounds like you skipped the rest of the thread after that post...DarkLightA wrote:Jack wrote:
I'm afraid you guys are on a need to know basis. And right now, you don't need to know.Green Crayons wrote:
I'm still curious where you determined the CIA agent is "obviously" the serial killer?Green Crayons wrote:
I'm sorry, where did it say that there is a serial killer?Jack wrote:Setup is interesting I think. The CIA agent is the serial killer obviously, but who are the mafia?
So how do you know it's CIA?Jack wrote:You only think you do. I'm (apparently) the only one who sees that you don't.It seems like this is from a role PM.
If you don't wish to comment there's only one thing to do =(
Vote: Jack
I don't buy the fake =( emotion either.
fos:DarklightA-
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Your theory is that I didn't read the bit I quoted for you?Netopalis wrote:A person might have accidentally done that as an SK who has the CIA agent role and thought it was mentioned in the OP - if you notice, he doesn't realize until I point it out that the OP said secret service.
The ONLY people in the room who aren't justices are the attorneys and the secret service agent. There is no CIA agent.Netopalis wrote:
Of course I have, but you saidJack wrote:My conversation starters are soooo much more fun then question lists.
Have you read this bit from the OP netopolis?Battousai wrote:Someone in this room is trying to kill them, but the only people in the room that are not justices are the two attorneys and the secret service agent..CIAagent, not secret service. Why did you say that? If it was from the OP, why not just say that instead of saying that there's a reason but that we don't want to know it?-
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As I said, a conversation starter.Netopalis wrote:Then why the heck would you even mention it?
At least your theory about it being a ploy to be seen as innocent after the initial suspicion cleared had some merit. I don't get people thinking that scum would basically confess in the opening post.
And here I was trying to tone it down after people took my page one "who wants to be investigated tonight?" post as a cop soft claim in that other game.-
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You are basically quoting jason here, even the mannerisms.DarkLightA wrote:Jack wrote:How can there actually be a CIA agentin the setup when the write up confirms that there isn't?Jack wrote:Setup is interesting I think.The CIA agent is the serial killer obviously, but who are the mafia?
*HEAD DESK*Jack wrote:As I said, a conversation starter.
*HEAD DESK*
*HEAD DESK*
*HEAD DESK*
*HEAD DESK*
*HEAD DESK*-
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The secret service is completely separate from the CIA.jasonT1981 wrote:
Actually... it says secret service... that can include CIA... the write up does not confirm there is no CIA.. it just confirms there are secret service agents..Jack wrote:
What's the difference?DarkLightA wrote:
Not saying it was a scumslip. Saying that it's a SK-slip.Jack wrote:Proof that it wasn't a scumslip, basically.
-.-
How can there actually be a CIA agent in the setup when the write up confirms that there isn't?
/HEAD-DESK-
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It works like a charm. Especially since all you have to do is check the OP and see that my post was not a serious claim.Netopalis wrote:He's right about that, at least. The Secret Service is under the Treasury Department.
So, wait. You decide that you're going to claim something that is a complete lie about the setup, breadcrumb a fake PR and then act like you're hiding informationin an attempt to start conversation? Am I understanding you correctly?
And it's part of the department of homeland security right now, at least according to my role pm.*
*sarcasm test.-
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People keep doing this...I don't understand. Did you get to his post and then just stop and write a reply? You skipped or skimmed the rest of the posts?Bub Bidderskins wrote:
Actually it's under the Dept. of Homeland Security, but before 2003 it was under the treasury. I'll post more later...Netopalis wrote:He's right about that, at least. The Secret Service is under the Treasury Department.-
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Interesting, let's go through it.Bub Bidderskins wrote:EBWOP: *facepalm* I meant Secret Service agent .
Bub votes me for copying and pasting the answers (44)
I explain in (45) and ask him why he thinks it's suspicious in (46)
In (48) I post the explanation for the 2nd time, in response to a direct question
In (69)
I'm not likely to be scum, he just wants answers (one of these was answered already, twice in fact. He even says "votes" instead of "answers)Bub wrote:At this point Jack is so anti-town that he is unlikely to be scum. No scum in his right mind would openly deny information that could be helpful to the town.
However, until you are willing to explain more as to why you copy and pasted votes and what makes you think there's a CIA-serial killer, then my vote will remain on you.
In (91)
The first sentence of the 2nd paragraph is a doozy. "Jack probably isn't scum, but I'll lynch him because I don't want him in endgame regardless of whether he's scum or not"???Bub Bidderskins wrote:The point is that usually when somebody is so blatantly anti-town, then they're probably not scum, because scum isn't that stupid.I'm voting for Jack to try and get answers.
However, if it comes down to it I'll lynch him, mainly because I don't want it in the end-game if he goes on to ruin it regardless of whether he's scum or not. Also, if you noticed in the game above, all of the scum (including me) were on Stuart's wagon. That was because he was such an easy lynch that day. That leads me to believe that pwn and Jason are scummy. Neto had decent reasons for his vote, but the others come off as opurtunistic scum, especially pwn. FOS: Pwn
He thinks pwn and jason are scummy, especially pwn.
(108) has some strangeness.
He still just wants me to answer. But note that this assumes no CIA agent. He's assuming that I know the secret service agent is the serial killer. He also thinks the lawyers are mafia for some reason.While I can see that possibly the secret service agent is the serial killer and the lawyers are the mafia, but how do you know that to be the case.
(125)
This looks like he is deciding to join the bandwagon. Everything he is listing as suspicious is things he just wanted answers to earlier, and things that he thought made me "probably not scum".Jack's play has gone far and beyond what is "normal" anti-town play.
He is refusing to answer questions, and (as has been just mentioned) the whole CIA agent thing looks like a scum slip. He then tried to ride out the wave by just playing poorly. Right now, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't lynch Jack
He is claiming that the CIA agent thing is a scumslip, but he has already shown that he doesn't believe there is a CIA agent.
(148)I simply wanted answers. However, his outright refusal to give any, and several good points that Net and others have brought up(such as the CIA thing)have all but confirmed myoriginal ickling of suspision.
This is where Bub looks the most scummy.
He was obviously just pushing for answers early on, and he thought I was probably not scum. But he decided to join the wagon. He claims to have suspected me originally (contradicts what he's said many times). And he thinks the "CIA thing" is a good point, despite the fact that he has shown several times (including in the latest post) that hedoesn't believe there is a CIA agent in the setup.
Summary:
His accusations are sloppy, often ignoring that they have already been answered, and he mixes up words.
Does a rapid about face when it looks like I'm in danger of being lynched (his posts imply that he thinks Iwillbe lynched
Conclusion: bandwagoning scum
unvote:pwnman, vote:Buba Budderskins-
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camn wrote:
Who ever said you did?Jack wrote:camn, where did I attack Netopolis?
camn, @Netopolis wrote:It was you and Ellibereth.
You came out of the gateattacking each otherfor crap-cases.
I totally bought the whole thing, and Elli went on to win.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtop ... 1c7e3e739b
You are scum, and so is Jack.
Scumteam = found.-
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I find Neto very townie.
You posted a link to a game where Neto and Elli attacked eachother as scum. But Neto attacked me, I didn't attack Neto. Many people attacked me. Did you check any of Neto's other games to see if he attacks people as town?
I don't see how you switched from a duel-bussing theory to a "one scum busses and the other distances slightly theory" without a hitch in your stride.-
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camn wrote:Jack- Could be Uber-Bussing with Neto?camn wrote: Recently I saw the most redic Day 1 dual-buscamn wrote:You came out of the gate attacking each other for crap-cases.
...
You are scum, and so is Jack.
Scumteam = found.camn wrote:
Who ever said you did?Jack wrote:camn, where did I attack Netopolis?camn wrote: Or are you intentionally missing the point that that post is all about Netopolis's meta?
The fact that you didn't play it exactly like Elli does not lessen your scumminess.
Your spat with Neto did not go unnoticed. The fact that you onlybristled and hinted at Neto being scumdoes not make yourdistancingany more palatable.Your chainsaw defense of Netopolis is noted.
Camn: Jack is uber bussing Neto = scummy
Jack: Where did I do that?
Camn: Jack is slighty distancince neto = just as scummy
Jack: I think he's town
Camn: Jack is defending Neto =scummy
Lalala.-
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Quote wall:camn wrote:Jack: I am not attacking Netopolis. He is town, see!I am not doing what Elli did in that game, really!!
All these are Elli quotes wrote:Reading now, but at a glance I disagree with Neto's above post very much.Skimmed through fast once.
Like Mae and Kmd.
Don't like Neto.
Vote: NetoNeto:
ISO 0: RV
ISO 1: Theoy crap
ISO 2: More theory crap
ISO 3: More theory crap
ISO 4: More theory crap
ISO 5: More theory crap
ISO 6: More theory crap
ISO 7: Still theory
ISO 8: You don't want Bogre lynch
ISO 9: Not content
ISO 10: Gives "light reads" without your favorite reasons. Followed by theory crap.
ISO 11: Anwsers quesion.
ISO 12: Says Net's post is useless.
ISO 13: See 11.
ISO 14: Explainging why you posted all the theory crap
ISO 15: Irrelevant
ISO 16: More theory comments...
ISO 17: Still talking about voting theory
ISO 18: Asks others for read.
ISO 19: Theory
ISO 20: Content. Kerri Net comparison
ISO 21: Not Content
ISO 22: Reexplains 20
Most of your posts aren't content. And no, all the theory crap is not content.Ann, ongoing game.
And that Iso thing was to show how little Neto has actually done. Only 4 or so of the posts are the type of content he wants from everyone else.Scummy as hell ^^^
Methinks Neto/Gayle are scumz.Glork, what do you think about Neto?
Vote: NetoIf Neto's scum (he is), then it's very likely Gayle's scum with him. It's a feeling I get from Neto's posts from 179-184.Neto's still scum.The PBPA showed that you were full of noise.Hi Kerri. What do you think of Neto?I would appreciate an L-1 on Neto.Why do you think there is a possibility of an accidental hammer?
It's been made pretty clear it would be L-1.
Please put your vote back on.Thanks Kmd.
I still say Gayle is scum if Neto is scum.
And we should lynch Neto today.Zach sees it.
Neto needs to die.Hope you're okay man.
Anyway, your idea is complete BS. Moar votes on Neto please.Why aren't you voting Neto?Oh Hai der! Please do something pro-town this game by voting for Netopalis please! kthx.
I didn't quote all of the anti-neto posts.How the did hell Net get lynched yesterday??? Can anyone here explain to me the rationale behind that lynch? The last minute shift was completely ridiculous. There was close to 0 chance of a claim....arghrah. It was just ridiculous
Neto should have died yesterday, and he's going to die today. Neto+Gayle+Yos scum. I have a town gut reads on Kerri and Haylen.
Vote: Neto
These are Jack today:Jack wrote: Lynching townies is a scum goal. So if you are trying for my lynch, should I say you are pushing towards a scum goal?
I think what you are saying here is too general. Town benefits from gaining information about player alignment. Not just any old information. Why am I as scum refusing to answer?
Applying these general paradigms (e.g. anti town is scummy) doesn't work well without a lot to flesh it out.So you came up with this one just now. You're making the logic fit the conclusion, then. Let's say I started (for some reason) with the conclusion that you were scum. In that light, your starting the game with the questions would be an attempt to make yourself look pro town and to control discussion early. You didn't notice my answers were copy pasted because you were scum faking suspicion on Darox. Now you think I know something about the setup that you don't, and as scum you want to know what it is, so you threaten to lynch me unless I spill the beans.
If you are town surely you can see how far astray starting with a conclusion and then finding a scum motive for someones behavior can take you.You never said anything about this, even when asked. You "couldn't imagine any protown situation" and then I was scummy because I was "hiding information and working towards a scum goal" and then you "couldn't imagine a pro town situation" again.
So, you were "hiding information" from the town when you didn't mention this, yes?You weren't far off in your suspicion Net. Except your confirmation bias was twisting it the wrong way (butconf bias is a town tellso it's ok).
That first post was my version of the conversation starter. The fact that there was no CIA agent in the setup gave me an "out" once the starter had run it's course. Proof that it wasn't a scumslip, basically. That it was just made up.
***************
Summary:
Elli attack netopolis non stop
Jack said that net was townie
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Net didn't come out the gate charging at Elli in that game. It was elli that did that. Net acted suspicious of him later.
camn:
In Pick Your Power II I distanced with my scumbuddy (hoopla) day one. Compare and contrast with me and netopolis please.
Have you read any games with Net as town? I asked you this before.-
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The accusation.camn wrote:Camn: I have seen this shit before... where was it.... hmm...
Jack: when did I attack Netopolis??
Camn: que?.
Jack: I am not attacking Netopolis. He is town, see! I am not doing what Elli did in that game, really!!
Camn: you guys are both scum.
Jack: But I can make ironic smiley faces!!
Which I called bs on. Elli attacked you hard from the start, I said you were giving a town tell. You weren't attacking him hard from the start, you did attack me hard. You didn't sound enthusiastic about the bussing strategy from your ISO'd endgame posts.
As I pointed out in 273, camn started with a false accusation and then waffled on it and tried to make it look better.
It starts out:
"Jack is uber bussing with neto, like I saw before"
Then I asked him where I attacked neto and he denied claiming that.
Then he says I was distancing with you. Then he has the bit of dialogue above where he thinks my claim to be "not doing what elli did" is bogus. But it is.
Now after going on about me being scum:
camn wrote: I am not interested in a meta-war. Jack isn't reacting as scummily as I would have predicted anyway.-
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- Jack of All Trades
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- Joined: August 13, 2006
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-
Jack Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5460
- Joined: August 13, 2006
-
-
Jack Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5460
- Joined: August 13, 2006
-
-
Jack Jack of All Trades
-
-
Jack Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5460
- Joined: August 13, 2006
-
-
Jack Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5460
- Joined: August 13, 2006
-
-
Jack Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5460
- Joined: August 13, 2006
-
-
Jack Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 5460
- Joined: August 13, 2006