Prozacs Basic Theme 3 - GAME OVER

[Banshee]

Hi everyone.
I'm still reading the game, but I'll catch up soon. Probably during night phase, since that looks imminent.

[Banshee]

How THE FUCK am I xvart's buddy?

Nocmen, you better start making sense because I'm not liking anything recent from you.

To me this screams Nocmen trying to buss and Scooby protesting. Notice how Nocmen then sheeps Scooby's vote on Dramonic on the very next page.

The sharp change in tone from "How the FUCK..." to "you better start making sense because I'm not liking anything recent from you" is indicative, to me, of someone who's not sincere in his argument. When I'm mad, I stay mad for more than a sentence. I don't get the calm, serene tones of a first-grade teacher dealing with a crying child one sentence later.

VOTE: Scooby

Also, if Scooby is scum then the above implicates Nocmen pretty strongly.

[Banshee]

Did you manage to read the whole game before that vote?

Yep. Thanks for asking!

What's your suspicion level of Nocmen right now? Why do you think he accused you directly of being scumbuddies with Xvart and then, when you protested, sheeped you almost immediately?

[Banshee]

Let me illustrate the dramonic case:

trekker is not remarkably protown, post one lines and is very stupid.

However, he posts this:

dramonic, why did you kill him?

What are you referring to?

the man who died in the night phase.

Ok, we know NOW that trekker is VANILLA, but assume for a second you were scum reading that post. Doesn't this sound like a power role breadcrumbing information about dramonic?

Scum couldn't know trekker was "bluffing". Scum bought the bluff and killed him in the night.

Allow me to explain where I think you went wrong.

Night 0, this happened:

Dillan Bowden, NPC, was

shot in the head

Night 0.

Night 1, this happened:
Flameaxe - Michael Murphy - Gambler - Gambler (doc variant) - Stabbed by a roulette table spike night 1
Blackberry - Nina Jones - Old Woman - Vanilla Townie -

Shot out with the casino

night 1 (ALSO note that this is a WOMAN)

Night 2, this happened:
RECKONERx - Derek Walker - Security Guard - Town Roleblocker -

Shot

Night 2
Trekker - Caroline Maeby - High Roller - Vanilla Townie - Cut into bits Night 2

So let's look at what actually happened. The shot typically indicates scum and I think it specifically does in this case since the NPC kill was performed by scum and the flavour was definitely "shot", but it doesn't matter which way you look at it.

Trekker accused Dramonic of being scum, specifically, of being part of the faction that killed that man in the night phase. That man would have either have been Dillan, NPC, who was shot, or would have been Flameaxe, who was stabbed with a roulette table. The other death was a woman.

For the sake of argument, let's assume for now that the stabbings are a serial killer. It makes enough sense that we can do that; it doesn't harm anything if we're wrong for this argument.

So, we have two serial killings on two nights, and three scum kills on two nights (one pregame). Dramonic is arguing that he couldn't have killed Trekker because the flavours don't match with the Night 0 kill. However, the flavours absolutely match with the man killed in the night phase on Night 1, Flameaxe.

So you're wrong when you say that Dramonic is scum. Scum is unlikely to have killed Trekker based on his statements, because

1) No one could provide evidence regarding Night 0.
2) Night 1 scum killed a woman, not a man. The presumed SK killed the man.
3) The kill flavors do not match for the two men killed in the night phase.

However, I do think Dramonic killed the man in the night phase during Night 1 and that he became concerned that Trekker had seen it. Not because he's scum. Because he's the SK. That's why there's the "You can't know I'm scum!" non-denial crap and half-hearted defense, because he's now drawn attention to himself and any pro-town investigators are going to ruin his chances of winning.

I still think Scooby is likely scum due to other reactions around this. Of course, scum have just as good a reason to kill the SK as town does so it's completely null if my theory is right either way.

Please feel free to pick apart my logic and tell me where I've made mistakes or overlooked things.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Dramonic

[Banshee]

I think you're confusing method with flavour. Flavour is "I chopped you into little bits and left you on the doorstep" or "I sliced you open and decorated my room with bits of you" or "I slit your wrists and made it look like a suicide." Method, in all these cases, is knife.

@MODPorochaz

: Am I correct in separating flavour from method? You are distinguishing between kills made with a knife and kills made with a gun, yes? Or is it completely random in all cases and someone who killed with a gun before may kill with a giant stuffed pink bunny the next time?

[Banshee]

Okay, I have no idea what that means. If there's no consistency of the method (not flavour) of killing, then I'm not at all sure that there's any way to know who performed any kill. So Dramonic's defense is null and can't be considered at all.

This does make him less likely to be guilty, however, in a weird way. Since there are two kills (and had been when Trekker made his comment) both kills are unlikely to come from a single scum group. It's not impossible, but it's not likely. So either scum group (or the SK) may have targeted Trekker because they believed Trekker's vague softclaim and were threatened by it even if Dramonic is town. The existence of the second kill (if not performed by a town vig or a scum vig) does hint at a second anti-town group or individual.

Meh, it's all WIFOM without evidence from the kill types.

@Scooby

: The problem with this is that the existence of two kills on night one would inspire paranoia in scum. Scum could have seen the attack on Dramonic by Trekker and have decided to get rid of Trekker before he turned his investigative eye toward them with no awareness of Dramonic's alignment. Scum may be facing a third-party or second-scum-team opponent just as town is. If they assumed Dramonic was 1) a second scum group or, more likely 2) a serial killer, they could have taken out Trekker and counted on getting Dramonic the next day or night.

Do you see what I'm saying? I'm sort of at a loss to make it more clear.

[Banshee]

ETA: Dramonic's non-denials and weird circular logic moves are the reason my vote is staying. Not the WIFOM about Trekker, but the almost resigned way in which Dramonic seems to think he's lost already. This argues to me he's SK and that he knows every investigative role will be on him til the end of the game.

[Banshee]

If you were scum and someone says he has information regarding you, despite of you telling the truth or not, which at the same time you could not know, would you kill him or not?

If I were scum and someone said they had information on me, I would kill the claimed PR even though that's a sacrifice play. (People would then definitely know I was guilty.)

However, if I were town and someone said they had information on me, I would not be able to kill them even if I wanted to. But scum would also see that and, not knowing if I were third-party or second-scum group, might kill the claimed PR themselves and count on the town to take me out for them tomorrow.

See the problem with the big assumption you're making?

@MODPorochaz:

I still don't see what you're getting at; I get that flavour doesn't matter, and if the method isn't separate either then I don't think we can separate out kills by their separate groups. It's just new to me not to be able to tell which group committed which kill even if you knew there were multi-groups or scum and SK or whatever. By which I mean, separating kills by "shot", "stabbed", or whatever regardless of other flavour touches. If the same scum group factional kill can look like shot, cut to pieces, smothered with a giant feather boa, or kissed to death by Delilah the Kissing Bandit, there's no way to separate them out by different groups or kill types. And that was all I meant.

[Banshee]

However, it's possible that scum could still be framing him, by seeing this and killing trekker. Still, I don't think that just going and making jokes about it is a town reaction to someone pretending they have information on you.

Oh, I disagree with this completely. Someone who is town knows that the comment is a lie. Scum are unlikely to call attention to themselves with this lie, so the townie may well assume that the investigative claim is a joke and respond in kind. It's scum who would likely freeze in the headlights and not respond to it directly.

Can you explain to me exactly why you're voting Dramonic right now? Is it because of his jokey reaction to the initial accusation?

[Banshee]

Yes. I don't want to say anything else until I get an answer from Nocmen, but I agree with that.

[Banshee]

You should have put fewer personal attacks in there, since you're demotivating the only person who seemed interested in all in trying to defend your side of the case. That's what I mean by giving up. No one else is jumping out to defend you even slightly, so you insult the one person who made any kind of case for you.

Not the most brilliant move either for town OR scum.

[Banshee]

Okay, in that case, I think Dramonic is actually cleared of being scum for the reason Scooby is pursuing. Not OBJECTIVELY cleared, but cleared of this case.

Look at it like this:

If Trekker had been a power role (Tracker) that had tracked Dramonic (I know what you did last night) then he was referring to Flameaxe, who was killed but not shot. The other kill was a female. Trekker specifically referred to the man killed in the night phase. If it was the Night 0 kill, then there could be no tracking. So, from an objective point of view and assuming the paranoia common to scum and SKs, Trekker was referring to a kill made by knife. We know the scum kill was by gun, based on the Night 0 kill which is known to be by scum. So Trekker could only be referring to a tracker result for what looks to be an SK, and indeed Trekker was killed by an SK. So the kills DO match in that regard. Of course, Trekker was VT so it was just a gambit or a joke.

So Dramonic is probably not scum. He's probably SK or townie. There are no absolutes outside of death and cardflip, but I don't think Dramonic is scum.

Still waiting for an answer from Nocmen before I say anything else along these lines.

Oh, and
UNVOTE:
until I get that answer.

[Banshee]

@StrangerCoug:

As I understood Porochaz's answer from before, he said that while the flavour might change, the method (or weapon type, if you prefer) remains consistent by faction.

For instance, an SK might chop you into bits, eviscerate you, slice your wrists, or cut your throat. But he'd always be using a knife. A scum hit might be a tiny little red hole barely visible on her wine red dress, or a splattered mess from a shotgun, or a neat hole right between the eyes, but it would always be a gun. So you can tell the difference between the faction hits and identify them as belonging to one or the other even though they might vary a lot in flavour.

I'm sure Porochaz will let us know if this is wrong, but that's how I understood what he said.

[Banshee]

Can you explain to me exactly why you're voting Dramonic right now? Is it because of his jokey reaction to the initial accusation?

Because, if he is town and knows it a lie, wouldn't you try to challenge that? Question it? How would a member of the town know its a joke as opposed to a false accusation? Wouldn't most town members counteract that, try to figure out why there is a false accusation against them? And then the scum would be the one to joke about it, to try and get over it as casually as possible.

I still want an answer to my question. I don't agree with you about reactions but that's a WIFOM argument based on what each of us thinks we would do in this situation, so it is unprofitable to argue back and forth about it.

But WHY are you voting for Dramonic right now? I want a specific reason or reasons and I don't want them from anyone but you.

[ETA]

@Scooby

: I'm here. I was rereading a couple of people in ISO to clarify a few things.

[Banshee]

I read the game and I've read Bunny in ISO. What's the case on Bunny that isn't more true of Nocmen?

If it's that first post questioning Fate, I don't agree that what Bunny said indicated suspicion of Fate so much as questioning some actions Bunny didn't understand. But I don't have meta on either (and I'm not answering Nocmen's scummy meta questions either, so don't ask me!).

[Banshee]

Banshee, if you want iso's, there are a few other interesting ones.

And iso's hardly work if you want to see bunnies passivity.

I've read the whole game. Bunny is lurky and buddies Fate repeatedly. People go after (her? him? I can't tell its gender) quite frequently and one of them was Xvart, as I recall.

On the positive side for Nocmen, Xvart was pretty willing to see him hammered. Could be bussing, maybe not. But the whole recent behaviour of Nocmen around Scooby argues that at least one of them is scum.

I think Dramonic is likely the SK. If you wanna go ahead and lynch him based on that analysis it's okay, but I think he's just as likely to hit scum as town and maybe would even try to if we asked him nicely.

I am STILL WAITING for Nocmen to answer my question. I know he read it, because he quoted it in his non-answer to me.

[Banshee]

Also, Bunny is calling Fate out for a meta of fake-claiming masons as scum, so it makes sense that you would argue that she is extra scummy regardless of your actual alignment.

[Banshee]

@Mykonian:

Do you and Fate have daytalk?

[Banshee]

@Mykonian

: I notice that you and Fate apparently disagree on some scum suspects, which makes sense if you don't have daytalk imo. Who are your top few scum suspects in rough order? (I don't need town reads right now, but whatever you want to give would be appreciated.)

[Banshee]

Do you think that the interactions between Dramonic and Scooby were distancing? How about between Nocmen and Scooby before Nocmen started sheeping him?

Is Bunny usually this lurky and non-contributory?

These questions are really for anyone, actually.

I do have one game of town-meta for TheJakalope (and he has scum-meta on me) so I do want to look at him more closely. At first read this looks like similar play from him though.

[Banshee]

That has nothing to do with my question.

I asked, Why are you voting Dramonic right now? What was the impetus that pushed you into thinking, hey, Dramonic is scum! I'll vote for scum!

What is the reason you are voting him, Nocmen?

[Banshee]

That has nothing to do with my question.

I asked, Why are you voting Dramonic right now? What was the impetus that pushed you into thinking, hey, Dramonic is scum! I'll vote for scum!

What is the reason you are voting him, Nocmen?

It's not a town reaction in my eyes.

What SPECIFICALLY was not a town reaction in your eyes? The initial reaction, or something else?

[Banshee]

Bunny, as I remember, has always been mislynch food. It has been some time that I played with bunny, probably pre-break. I'd bet it lurking was a part of it, but I couldn't tell for sure. Lurking is something different from passivity though.

Is passivity similar to being conciliatory?

I think she was fairly actively trying to push the idea that Fate and you were scumbuddies trying to fake mason buddies throughout the last day and getting nowhere (rightly so, too, since that's not a claim that requires testing right now and may never need to be tested). So I don't think she was being passive there. I do think she was lurky and she seemed to be buddying up to Fate early on in a way I was suspicious of on first read.

Just trying to clarify what you mean by passivity.

[Banshee]

If I was scum, and Fate was my partner and he threw me under the bus like that? I'd be a very pissed goon. Fate isn't scum. Instead of defending yourself, you attack town. Wow.

You have pretty good meta from a very recent game of scum bussing three of their buddies for exceptional town cred. Why are you making this argument, given those facts? It honestly doesn't matter how pissed scum are to be bussed if it profits the overall team in picking up the win.

Why are you making the assumption that Fate is town?

[Banshee]

The link to the recent game Jakalope should still be remembering (since it JUST ended) is here.

[Banshee]

Banshee > Who was our "busser scum"? o_0

I think the remaining three on the scum team all made a pretty good effort toward bussing Shotty, Andrew and Oversoul. You would disagree? Certainly I was guilty of it myself.

Do you think it's a fair comment to say that Fate would never buss a partner like that and thus Fate/Mykonian are somehow CONF-town because of it? That was what my comment was regarding, and don't you think TheJakalope ought to remember the game he was just in?

[Banshee]

Meh, tired of waiting on a straight answer that I doubt will ever come.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nocmen

[Banshee]

No, no, that is just wrong. I am unconvinced that Bunny is scum but I'd even prefer a Bunny lynch over a Fate lynch today.

If Fate is scum, so is Mykonian. If that's the case, then they will both go down together in a blaze of glory, but not today.

If Fate is town, so is Mykonian. If we lynch one of them today to test their claim, we lose the other one in a NK soon after (or soon enough) so that we lose the luxury of a confirmed town.

Either way, Fate is NOT the lynch for today. (Neither is Mykonian.) So stop that.

[Banshee]

I'm sorry if I offended you, but regardless of meta it's a very bad idea to kill one of two claimed masons at the start of the game and I wanted that to be clear, along with the negative effects of doing so. We still have time to address that issue later if need be.

I don't much like Fate's playstyle either, but having played with JDodge I'm familiar with the being-trolled style of play and if it works then there's no point throwing a fit because it's not the same as your own playstyle. Being condescending and insulting is a part of the game too. In one game I actually stopped speaking to someone altogether because they'd insulted me I don't think I answered anything from them until they replaced out and someone else took the slot, so I can be pretty bitchy if someone is nasty enough.

I also care about this game. I think Mykonian and Fate do too (though I'm suspicious that they are of different alignment than me, and it makes me feel vaguely hostile toward them in a game way). But yelling at others and insulting everyone else in the game isn't going to make things better. I can imagine it would make you feel better for a little, but the only way to fix this problem is to keep harassing people yourself and making them answer questions. The mod can't make the game active, because that would be interfering; it's up to us to do that.

In other news, I think Porochaz is an outstanding human being and a wonderful mod and I replaced into this game BECAUSE of those facts.

@everyone:

How likely do you find it that Dramonic is the SK based on the recent (SK?) nightkill of Trekker?

[Banshee]

Not sorry

The cursing at someone aside, I don't like this. If Fate and Mykonian ARE scum fakeclaiming masons, then of course Fate isn't sorry because this lynch prevented their outing. If Fate and Mykonian are town, though, they ought to be sorry from a self-serving point of view because now they can't be confirmed town as easily and it will probably require a lynch to determine their alignment if we don't have another cop role.

I can believe that Fate is not sorry. But I think town OUGHT to be sorry in this position.

[Banshee]

They haven't done it yet.

That can go either way, I'm not going to try to guess a NK motivation when I'm not sure who the scum are yet.

[Banshee]

That isn't what I said. Is it a deliberate misrep, or did you honestly not understand what I posted?

[Banshee]

NO IM NOT SORRY

AND YOU"LL SEE WHY POSTGAME

HINT:
IM FUCKING SCUM

Going to utterly ignore this, Mykonian? Not even a comment spared?

Interesting.

VOTE: Fate

[Banshee]

Good to see the wheels falling off this dramonic crap.

Nocmen is a better place to look, even if I don't think he's paired with scooby after the last lynch and NKs.

Bunny would be a good lynch though. Oh yeah.

Meh, a reread on Oman nets this. So I'm going to go ahead and go along with it since I think it's an investigation result.

I still want an explanation for Fate claiming scum and I'm not going to forget about it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bunnylover

[Banshee]

Yeah, lynch away. I'm town and it will give you TONS of town cred to lynch me.

I have no meta read on Fate but anyone who claims scum in thread as town IS an idiot. There is literally NO pro-town reason to do that. NONE. So deflect more, scum.

[Banshee]

And as a note, if I am lynched or NKed, I'll flip town and I want SOMEONE to remember this moment when Mykonian chose to attack someone for noticing his buddy claimed scum (I assume in a drunk post) rather than actually ANSWERING as to why Fate might have done that. After all, as Mykonian so helpfully points out, he DOES talk to Fate at night. So he should know why he said it, right?

JUST REMEMBER THIS when I flip.

[Banshee]

Yeah, lynch away. I'm town and it will give you TONS of town cred to lynch me.

I have no meta read on Fate but anyone who claims scum in thread as town is an idiot. There is literally NO pro-town reason to do that. none. So deflect more, scum.

Neither is there a pro scum reason to do that. So eh, you are honestly going to be mad at fate while scum is getting lynched. Because he claimed scum? And you are going to expect his masonbuddy to make a comment on that post (or even vote him).

Get real dude. You imagined a great start for this day I assume, but you are really not making sense.

I have no clue what you're saying here about a great start. I was expecting Bunny to be dead, if anything, and I suppose I would have been unhappy about that. No, there's no pro-scum reason to do it, but scum might do it if they post drunk. And I'm pretty sure that's not an unknown concept to anyone in the game.

Why wouldn't you make a comment on that post? What is your pro-town motivation to say nothing, if you ARE a mason and Fate is your buddy? In your shoes, if I were a pro-town mason I'd be saying SOMETHING and I'd have said something last night in mason-chat too, believe me. But you're all sunshine and roses and innocence like he didn't say a thing wrong.

Is that normal town behaviour after something like that? I don't THEENK so.

Like I said, I'll flip eventually and when I do I think people will look back on this, especially if the two masons are not NKed as the game goes on. Damage is done, no point in trying to mitigate it now, Mykonian.

EBWOP: Mykonian, I believe I was clear that I thought FATE was drunk when he posted it. Not you. You didn't post it. And if you're not questioning or discussing anything in your nighttalk, then ... what's the point of being masons anyway?

Way to try to deflect AGAIN though. I get it, you don't know why Fate claimed scum and you're not curious enough to ask in nighttalk. Clear as day, really. Got it.

[Banshee]

@Mykonian:

1. I don't know what it is you think you were right about me on. I don't really care, because your entire posting style is completely reactionary and useless to town, imo. Reck called it day one, and he's proven town now.

2. I just completed a game where town claimed scum AND SK in some strange attempts to make points about ... something. It cost them the game. I didn't care because I was scum in that game anyway. But claiming scum as town is ANTITOWN and there's not any two ways about it. If you want to argue that there's a special dispensation for Fate and he should be allowed to play however he wants and no one should ever call him on terrible terrible play, then you're part of the problem and not part of the solution. TOWN SHOULD NOT CLAIM SCUM. It's a DUMB MOVE.

3. If you're scared of Fate and don't want to get slammed by him going off on you and being REALLY insulting as opposed to the "were you drunk when you posted that" thing that SO OFFENDED you when I said it ABOUT FATE, then that's cool. Just say so. I'm not scared of Fate. What's he going to do, kill me and my little dog Toto too? Yeah, shaking in my stylish but affordable boots for sure.

[Banshee]

Okay. When I flip town, as I will, please remember that Fate 1. claimed scum in thread and has yet to explain why and 2. pushed lynches of Bunny, whom he now SUDDENLY argues is town due to claim even though he lynched the crap out of her yesterday, and me, who will flip town as soon as I'm lynched.

And then straighten up and stop following a pair of scum masons like sheep. Seriously, think for yourselves.

Thank you!

[Banshee]

Why DID you claim scum, Fate?

I still want an explanation for that. Is that some of the awesome scumhunting technique everyone keeps claiming you have?

Or were you just drunk, as I assumed previously?

[Banshee]

and? you saw town do it, I tell you Fate is town. You believe bunny who tunneled completely on fate fakeclaiming mason as scum, the same bunny who is getting lynched now too.

And while you damn well know town claims scum apparently, you still want to lynch fate who practically lead the xvart and bunny lynches.


Try to talk this straight. I bet you can't give an answer in less words then me. Which means you need a damn elaborate lie here.

Fate claimed scum. Fate now doesn't want to lynch Bunny. Explain that, mason buddy.
Do you talk at night AT ALL?
Your anti-Bunny argument looks dumb now.
Fewer words, cool beans!

[Banshee]

@Fate:
Did you discuss this at all with your claimed mason buddy Mykonian? Because he seems to have no idea of your sudden epiphany about Bunny's town-ness.

As I said previously, please go ahead and lynch me because if people are going to just blindly sheep someone who

1. claims scum in thread, and
2. does a 180 without apparently even discussing it with their mason partner
3. gives no reasoning and no cases for anything and engages in blatant OMGUS with Bunny and now me

then I would just as soon be out of the game sooner than later. So go for it. I'd like to think my words will carry more weight once my alignment is proven.

@Town: Please remember what I said. Also, note that I think Oman had an innocent on Dramonic (reread him, you'll see what I mean) and don't lynch Dramonic

[Banshee]

Wow, you didn't get enough claims out of people day one?

Sorry to disappoint. Yeah, go ahead and lynch, please. I made my position clear enough.

[Banshee]

You can't even convince your buddy Mykonian to vote me, so I'm not sure how you think things are going to work out for you here.

Good luck with that, though.

[Banshee]

Nope. I made a mistake replacing into this game; as I said, I had no meta on Fate and I really really dislike his playstyle. I find it almost impossible to play with someone who is screeching and yelling and has no logical point to anything he does. I can't even tell if he's town or scum and I HATE that claiming scum thing. The person who claimed scum in the game I mentioned (link available on request, I think one person in this game actually was in that game with me) was supposedly blacklisted by about half the game, and I feel the same way about Fate.

So no, I would welcome being lynched. I take my commitment to the game seriously and I think my contribution level up til now has borne that out, but I would welcome having an out from the game that wouldn't involve asking for another replacement. I think Porochaz has had to put up with enough in that regard already.

So nope. please do lynch me. I have no patience for this pretend-VI stuff and my lynch might serve to prove that it's not helpful to town and actually prevent it from continuing as a meme on this site, because I'm very sick of it now.

Thanks!

[Banshee]

@StrangerCoug:

I've done what I could to help town. I will put my level of contribution up against anyone's, especially in regards to the Dramonic situation yesterday. I don't have good meta on Fate or on Bunnylover or on too many people. But I do think that town should NEVER CLAIM SCUM. The fact that town does it is largely a result of it going unpunished.

I'm dismayed, seriously, that people are just accepting it cavalierly as if it's expected. You can't tell me Oman isn't a capable player, and HE even said he felt trolled in this game.

I'll continue to try to help town but I'm really done with this whole "coddle the pretend-VI" thing. If there are no consequences for scummy, anti-town behaviour up to and including claiming scum, then really the point of the game is largely lost for me.

[Banshee]

I don't support nor do I think others should support a massclaim right now.

Thanks for asking, though!

[Banshee]

Don't you?

If you know I'm not actual scum, why are you trying to lynch/troll/harass me?

Explain, please

[Banshee]

I am against it. I'm not participating. I think it's a dumb idea that just gives the scum better ideas where to kill.

@Bunny: Did you know you weren't going to die from being lynched beforehand?

[Banshee]

I had no idea how Bunny was going to flip.

As I said, please do go ahead and lynch me. It has been your policy to try to lynch people who questioned your mason claim, so I wouldn't want to stand in the way of your policy lynch.

My policy lynch is to lynch people who claim scum, and I was remiss in not living up to it. So I'm going to go ahead and remedy that right now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fate

[Banshee]

Wow, Yosarian2 hates your style and replaces out or policy lynches you? He's one of my favourite players in terms of playstyle. I feel a lot more comfortable about my reaction now.

Thank you!

Attempting the mason gambit as scum is a pretty big move for most players. I've never tried it, but I can understand the appeal. In general it would be a towntell (and a major one) to claim masons and tie yourself to another player, but since you have meta of doing so in the past and you apparently pride yourself on a wacky playstyle, I don't regard it as seriously as I generally would.

The mistake I believe you've made, however, is in tying yourself to a third person. I can see your ego driving you to do so, but when you did your sudden about-face on Bunny and then claimed that you'd thought the same way I had that she would be dead (from a nightkill), I started thinking about that. If you'd really thought she'd be dead at the start of this day, you might have come to your current town-Bunny position over time, but I just don't think it's the first thing that would occur to you. In honesty, you have no idea if Bunny is town unless you are scum. You can't; at best you can have a guess, not any real knowledge. You wanted to be confirmed, and Bunny obliged.

Who profits from leaving Bunny and two supposedly confirmed masons alive and going for a nightkill on Oman? When I've been scum I've pushed for nightkills on people I thought were cops; Oman surely acted like he had a guilty on Bunny and that could have been enough if Bunny is scum. But a cop claim is not something that were I scum I'd leave alive, especially if your claim is true. If you, Mykonian and Bunny are all town and supposedly conftown at this point, then scum are leaving too many must-lynch-before-endgame people alive and cannot reasonably expect to win.

But you're right, you've tied yourself to Bunny now in a situation where TOWN cannot know her alignment. Therefore, you must either 1) be scum gambiting ever more wildly in an attempt to amuse yourself and take risks you haven't before, which is weird, or 2) be foolish enough to believe that just because a claimed cop clears you that somehow that confirms the cop. I don't think you're that foolish. Therefore, I think you're scum desperate to amuse yourself and I think your claim has to be tested at some point. Now, or after I'm lynched, it makes no difference to me.

@TheJakalope:
You've seen a fake cop claim before in the game I just ended with you and you've seen them provide innocents for a whole pack of people. You've seen the trend toward claiming scum and the anti-town effects those claims had. Why are you acting like you don't have a clue about the game I've mentioned, since you were IN IT?

[Banshee]

@StrangerCoug:

Do you see the pointlessness of trying to make a coherent argument/case in this particular thread? Have you, yourself, attempted it?

Do you think a better, more competent player who actually wanted to post content and analysis would do better in it?

The only way to succeed and enjoy this particular game is to just sheep others and forget about contributing. I don't enjoy playing that way, so I think my response is a valid one. At least as valid as posting wall after wall of HERP DE DERP DERP DERP LOL LOL NO CONTENT HERE OMGUS.

[Banshee]

I hope you don't mind if I quote selectively from that.

Not at all. I intend to do the same.

Which leaves 1). Which assumes that Fate has the intelligence of a chimp. And you leave out the easiest explanation. Fate didn't consider a cop result that was messed with. As long as you forget that a GF is possible, bunny would have to lie if fate was scum, making him scum too. Ergo, bunny would be tied to us too. Naturally, this doesn't work if Fate is a GF. Which would add another assumption to your "fate is stupid scum who fakeclaims himself into a certain loss for his own fun".

I have no idea what you're on about here. If Fate and you are scum, you know you're scum. Fate wouldn't have to "consider a cop result" to know his own alignment. I don't know that Fate is scum, but Bunny giving a result on Fate and all three of you being around for the next day is pretty suspicious on SOMEONE's part. And Fate jumping right on the "Bunny is conftown no one dare accuse the Bunny!" after hammering her yesterday is scummy. You know it, I know it, and once I'm lynched MAYBE someone in the town will notice it too. Does it make Fate scum? Maybe. I don't know. But Fate was pushing a policy lynch on Bunny (by his own words) for being useless and lurky and god knows what all, so it's the height of hypocrisy to whine and OMGUS when the same treatment is turned back on him. And if you two ARE town and you're wrong about Bunny, you could lose us the game. If you're scum, I realise you don't care.

You are playing the fake scumhunting scum perfectly.

Really? I made myself a target and people jumped right on. I failed to fall into line with Fate and Fate's stupid gambits and now I'll be lynched for it. That's perfect fake scumhunting scum? Meh, I think you're afraid to see my flip and you're trying to make apologies for your attacks now (But she was playing the PERFECT SCUMHUNTING SCUM!?!? OMG HOW COULD I HAVE KNOWN?) But no one is going to buy it. You went for the first person to question Fate, just like yesterday. Apparently you now think you were wrong yesterday, too, so my flip shouldn't be too much of a surprise

[Banshee]

Regardless, Fate is correct in that I'm a vanilla townie, not that big a loss for town, a preferable lynch to the two of you going on a MassClaim rampage and then attacking someone who might be a PR, so please, go ahead and lynch me. My interest in contributing content is approaching zero anyway so everyone wins if you lynch me.

More votes, please.

[Banshee]

ETA: And before anyone starts screaming about me playing against my wincon, Fate claimed scum TWICE IN THREAD. So I don't even wanna hear it, honestly. I'm not any more required to post content than anyone else in this game and I've done my share, so :p

[Banshee]

@Mykonian:
Do you think Bunnylover is scum? Why or why not?

[Banshee]

Better idea.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bunny

If it's anything but an odd-night cop flip, Masons are shite, lynch them.

NO.

The vote is fine, but Bunny's flip does NOT indicate the alignment of the Masons.
If Bunny is scum then she would lie and confirm the masons in order to stay alive regardless of their alignment, so her alignment cannot be taken as an indication of theirs. It just can't. If she's town, that's a pretty good indicator that Fate and Mykonian are town (since they couldn't know for sure which one she'd investigate, they'd have killed her) but just because she's scum doesn't make them scum. It's null.

[Banshee]

Myko, wee might havetio lynch Xanatos.

Banshee is shitfuckbad but she might be town. She's "done her fair share" which is calling the masons scum and the cop scum, but the masons that the cop CONFIRMED are a better lynch than the supposed cop.


She's shit, but Xanatos should know better. He has no excuse

Oh, no. You made your big case about how I'm scummity scum. He can wait. You need to lynch me today and stop trying to stack mislynches in advance.

I stopped the wagon on Dramonic yesterday. Of course, then you wagoned and outed a cop whom the scum didn't choose to kill and who just happened to have confirmed you, so yeah, I'm willing to be lynched but you don't get to turn this corner and push a different lynch now with the help of your "mason" buddy.

No. Play the VI all you want, but stick to that act, not the cool slick scum who shifts the wagon when the person actually fights back. I want my wagon to stick.

[Banshee]

@Elli: Just vote me. I'm VT, it's not a huge loss.

Fate claimed scum twice in thread. Please explain to me how that's an awesome pro-town move and not just a VI move.

[Banshee]

Listen to Mykonian. She's right about me. And you shouldn't waste the momentum you've built up for my lynch now.

[Banshee]

I don't want them turning to mislynch someone else.

I had never played with Fate before and basically I don't see a point to my existence in this game. Town is following Fate fairly blindly in my view, any attempt to question this is met with an OMGUS attack times two, and there's no real sense of logic or argument. I'm pretty sure town will either win or lose more efficiently without my help on this, and my playstyle in no way is compatible with this shrieking cursing attack that follows anything Fate doesn't like.

In short, I'm not the sort of player who enjoys this kind of constant abuse and I prefer to just be lynched in preference to whatever power-role townie Fate decides is the scum du jour next.

[Banshee]

In seriousness, though, it's considered normal and pro-town to claim scum in thread if you're not?

This explains a lot about my most recent WTF game. Things have changed considerably in two years, if this is what it's devolved to.

[Banshee]

Masons. Confirmed by a (ok, questionable) cop. And you keep arguing fate's scum. And when that backfires (surprise surprise) you go into give up mode and ask for the lynch.

And now you blame (hey surprise again) fate again for everything bad in this game. Boohoo.

No, you've misread completely, I think.

I don't know if Fate is scum. I hate when people claim scum in thread, much as Fate hated Bunny's playstyle and pursued a policy lynch on her and didn't care whether or not she was scum. You do remember that, right? It was just yesterday. So even though I really haven't ever had policy lynches as such, I decided that it was time to make a stand against this particular thing. There's no way I can get Fate lynched in this game, and I'm pretty sure everyone knows this. Apparently claiming scum in thread is considered an acceptable town gambit now, even though I've just been through a game where it cost town the game pretty comprehensively.

I think Fate is anti-town. It doesn't translate to scum necessarily. I think the first part of the game is virtually a loss for anyone who is not Fate to interpret, and I've read it twice. Most of the people in the thread have basically said they got nothing from it. And that's why it makes no sense for me to try to contribute; what's the point? The game is skewed only to Fate's method of scumhunting. If Fate is town, awesome, just sheep him and don't bother to think. I can do that. If Fate is scum, though, we've lost without a chance.

But sheeping someone else and not bothering to think for myself is not why *I* play Mafia. And if that's the sort of game others enjoy, that's great. I don't. I think that's clear enough.

Mykonian, why is it okay for Fate to curse at everyone but if I suggest he might have been drinking, suddenly I've made a horrible personal attack? I am just curious on that one.

[Banshee]

Meh, you're right. I don't really care either way.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DavidXanatos

[Banshee]

fate has the decency not to curse at me

, and I misread that sentence (you corrected that later) where I though you discarded

my

post as being a drunkpost. You'd be annoyed too when somebody just discarded your nice argument as a drunkpost.

I suppose that makes you lucky, then. I also don't like being cursed at and called names in thread. I'm funny like that. I don't do it to others and I probably should have replaced out the first time it happened, but I didn't want to do that to Porochaz. -shrug- My bad.

[Banshee]

UNVOTE:
UNVOTE:

Don't have two votes anyway.

[Banshee]

VOTE: TheJakalope

[Banshee]

VOTE: TheJakalope

Just stop.

Mind giving any explanation to this?

Your posts in this game. In ISO they're bad. In context they're worse.

[Banshee]

David Xanatos is our best option here. I'm pretty sure he and Bunnylover are of opposing alignments and the way he's dealing with the claimed living cop and the masons points toward him being scum.

So if DavidX flips town you will push for Bunny's lynch?

[Banshee]

I think DavidX is town. I just finished a game with him where we were scum together and I don't read him as scum in this game. I suspect that he's aware that I'm reading him as town here.

I'm voting my top suspect at the moment based on some very inconsistent and wagon-happy play combined with minimal content posting by TheJakalope. I don't think Bunny is town either. Don't know about the masons and not interested in dealing with that right now. I think it's dumb to assume Bunny is town just because she confirms someone as town; it proves nothing at all about her alignment, leaving the masons completely aside.

tl;dr: Claiming an innocent never confirms a cop or the person they claim. What is the person going to say, "No, I'm an SK! Lynch the scum!"?

[Banshee]

Link or title of the game, please? Thanks.

[Banshee]

You didn't use it in the linked game, though. You used the "Town Forensic Investigator" card in place of the real Mafia Forensic Investigator card.

Reading it over, looking at both you and Fate pretty carefully. Fate was scum in that game too.

[Banshee]

Okay. I don't know still if DavidX is guilty. I still want an answer about the Bunnylover vs. DavidX scenario StrangerCoug presented us with. But I do see one thing that makes me believe that Fate is not gambiting scum claiming mason in this game.

Fate doesn't care about bussing his buddies. The reason the mason claim came about here was because Mykonian had gotten into serious trouble and was about to be lynched. I could be wrong on this, but I think Fate-scum lets Mykonian die. I don't see a whole lot of meta for Fate sticking his neck out for his scumbuddies when they've screwed up. So I guess they probably ARE masons. Fate bailing out Mykonian only helped Mykonian -- no one was suspicious of Fate then as I read the game.

That STILL does not make Bunnylover conftown or DavidX confscum imo. I don't get the slick, almost overconfident vibe off DavidX here, so my gut says town and I'm not going to vote for someone I think is town.

Also, it's a minor quibble, but I'm a girl and when people refer to me as he it confuses me as to whom they're speaking about sometimes.

[Banshee]

About games moving forward, bye DX. I sure hope nobody is going to fall for that claim.

Since he's been hammered already and the "bye DX" indicates that you know this, I don't know who this last comment is intended for. I don't think Porochaz will be influenced by DavidX's post-lynch claim

[Banshee]

The reason I'm somewhat unwilling to vote Bunnylover despite suspicion of her is because if there is no governor (a possibility) then she is most likely one-shot lynchproof. It would be odd for that to be a scum role -- not impossible, but odd. It would somewhat make sense with the cop claim as well, since she would have to survive being countered in this particular setup due to the existence of a full cop.

Just to point out there may not be a governor at all.

[Banshee]

Who was that directed toward, Dramonic?

[Banshee]

Meh, anyway I'm wrong. The only way one-shot lynchproof makes sense is if Bunnylover knew that she wouldn't be lynched (and was town). I don't see an X-shot lynchproof X-night cop being unaware of the lynchproof status. And Bunny said she didn't have a clue she wouldn't be lynched.

So it has to be a governor. It makes no sense any other way. But that's null in regards to Bunny's alignment.

[Banshee]

vote Dram

. The guy is lurking scummily. Compared to others which are just lurking.

How is Dramonic's lurking different from that of others? Is that the main reason to vote for him?

[Banshee]

Fate, I'm curious, have you ever played a game like a normal player?

Eh, you're hard as fuck to read. But, for now, I agree with this lynch.

VOTE: TheJakalope

Just stop.

Mind giving any explanation to this?

Wait holy shit, Dram is alive?

Alright between Dram and Bashee, I'm fairly confident there's 1 scum.

VOTE: Dram

I voted TheJakalope originally because of no-content posting, sheeping other votes without reasoning and because of the extremely opportunistic wagon jumps he makes in the posts above (I'm

still

town? Really? Then why were you voting for me?) and now, again, because he's trying to line up lynches in a row. I'm scum, then town, then scum again whenever it is expedient for his particular case.

Dramonic is somewhat likely to be the SK, but he's not scum imo. Bunnylover has an innocent on Dramonic, and the fight between Dram and Scooby was over a nightkill controversy that has been proven to be based on misunderstanding the mechanics of the nightkills.

Mykonian is not a good lynch for today. Fate put himself on the line to protect Mykonian against the lynch, so I don't feel inclined to make that a futile gesture by immediately lynching him now. We can think about that later on, imo at least.

VOTE: TheJakalope

[Banshee]

EBWOP:

Woo, time to get scum. Banshee, I've been called a VI multiple times, and even I think you're playing... wrong. You're still town.

VOTE: DavidX

That's 5, I think.

Somehow I quoted the wrong post above -- ignore the one to Fate and put this one in its place, please.

[Banshee]

my scumread on bunny woulda required Fate to flip scum.

Can you explain and elaborate on this?

[Banshee]

Okay, I was flat wrong about something and a reread with the most recent nightkills proves it.

Scooby (now Mastermind of Sin) thought that Trekkers was killed because the scum thought he was a cop of some kind due to some comments made by Trekkers directly at Dramonic. I argued successfully but incorrectly that the scum did not kill Trekkers. However, I now know (and everyone should know) that I was very wrong and this isn't clearing Dramonic at all from Scooby's accusations.

Tentatively saying these are vig kills (possible SK, but most likely vig):

• Night 1: Blackberry, VT
  Night 2: xRECKONERx, Town Roleblocker
  Night 3: no kill
  Night 4: Ellibereth, Mafia Goon
  

And these are the scum kills:

• Night 1: Flameaxe, Gambler (doc)
  Night 2: Trekkers, VT
  Night 3: Oman, Undercover Cop
  Night 4: Fate, governor

Scum isn't going to shoot itself; Porochaz said that kill flavour remained more or less consistent between types and was distinguishable in that way. So we can be sure that the second group is the set of scum kills since they don't include a scum kill and the other set does.

So Dramonic is not cleared of being scum, and anyone who was relying on that should stop. Additionally, he should probably have noticed this himself but he's remained completely silent on the topic.

I still think TheJakalope is scum, not based on lurking but based on complete confusion of his own views on whether or not I was scum (first I was, then I was "still town", then I was scum again as soon as it was expedient); this looks like scum trying to look active and push a lynch without actually bothering to read the game or remain consistent. But I am more interested in Dramonic's reply to this and why he didn't notice this latest set of nightkills since it was such a major topic of interest to him during the last game day.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Dramonic

[Banshee]

@Bunnylover:

Why did you choose to investigate Dramonic when you did?

[Banshee]

I'm going to float a theory, and those with more experience with Fate can tell me how likely they think it is.

We know now that Fate was a governor. That means he did not have to claim mason buddies with Mykonian in order to save Myko's life. He could have simply overruled the lynch if he felt it was a bad lynch, which in fact he did for Bunnylover. He had two options (three, if you count ignoring the lynch and just letting it happen). In one case, he chose claiming mason buddies; in the other, he chose governor.

Well, obviously he couldn't claim mason buddies with Bunnylover, so that's one explanation of sorts. But I'm wondering if Fate had another plan in mind.

If Fate thought Mykonian was scum, then he might have claimed mason with Mykonian knowing that Mykonian knew his meta and, even as town, would not reject this claim. It would be a safe move for Fate and might keep him alive longer, since scum would be reluctant to kill him and thus open up Mykonian to question about the mason claim.

SO, if Fate tried to claim mason with Myko because he thought Myko was scum in lieu of using the governor pardon on him, then I don't think Myko would have allowed him to be killed and to confirm that. Fate had shown no signs of backing down from his mason claim or of attacking Myko. So why would Myko-scum allow his security to be killed?

My answer is, he wouldn't. So, if Mykonian is scum, you have to believe that Fate was more dangerous to him alive than dead. That means that Fate was zeroing in on something. If this is the theory being floated by those on the Myko-is-scum lynching committee, I want some evidence of what Fate was on to that made Mykonian so nervous he was willing to kill his alibi. Without that, there's no smoking gun to lynch Myko.

Mykonian is not confirmed town. There are no confirmed townies, not me, not Bunnylover, not Myko, no one. But Myko is not the most likely scum and he's surely not the lynch for today.

Corrections on my logic are requested and welcome.

[Banshee]

To attempt to confirm himself as town. You guys ate it up as a derp-Fate moment and now he rides free.

See also: Myko's greatest adversary, xRECKx, dead N2. Not a coincidence.

No, this constitutes a case. It's just craplogic in my opinion, because Fate's death does not confirm anyone as town and in fact would be the one thing I would think a scum-Myko would want to avoid. Even if Fate DID "faux-mason" Myko due to thinking he was scum and to save his life, Fate wasn't closing in on anyone that I can see and there was zero reason for Myko-scum to want him dead.

[Banshee]

If Fate thought Myko was 100% town, MoS, why wouldn't he have just used his governor power on him?

Why go through the mason claim if he didn't have to? I think it's about 50/50 that Fate was trying to avoid being killed right away (does that happen a lot?) or that he thought Myko was town. I don't think it's beyond the pale that Fate would try to link himself to a scum in order to stay in the game longer. He's willing to gambit claim mason with people who may not even be town; why is my theory so much stranger than that anyway?

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying that I thought about it as a possibility but then had to discard it as irrelevant when I realised that scum-Myko would never have killed town-Fate this early given the circumstances. So it honestly doesn't matter what Fate thought in any case and I'm sure he'll tell us after the game. It only matters that Myko is probably not scum because scum-Myko would have kept town-Fate alive longer imo.

[Banshee]

Fate wouldn't want to waste his governor ability when he felt he could gambit to keep Myk alive.

Hmmm. How would it be wasting it? He could use it once per day, yes? (I see no indication otherwise.)

Anyway I think we agree about Myko so the actual logistics of why Fate did what he did don't matter right now. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it except that I started from the premise that Myko was scum and arrived at the conclusion that he probably wasn't, and that was part of my process to get there. I don't suppose it's relevant anyway.

[Banshee]

Uhh...have you ever played with a governor before, Banshee? The ability to stop a lynch EVERY day is ridiculously broken and puts the entire game in the hands of a single player. This isn't Kingmaker or Consulmaker, this is a basic theme game. At best he might have had two shots, but I'm guessing the ability could only be used once.

No, I've never played with a governor before. I would think if he was X-shot it would have said so, however.

I don't understand the case against Scooby/MoS. My suspicions remain with TheJakalope and Dramonic; I'm not really happy with Nocmen either. My only strong townreads are MoS and Mykonian and Myko's townread is situational based on events surrounding the lynch of Fate.

I'm not moving my vote yet because there's lots of time but if needed I'm willing to support a Jakalope lynch, but not an MoS or Myko one.

[Banshee]

I think that's true of most people in this game, though. I haven't seen a lot of real cases, real stands or real deduction thus far; I don't see why we need to single out MoS for this.

What's your take on Bunnylover currently, Myko? Still likely scum?

[Banshee]

@Mastermind of Sin:

Why do you have no interest in the Jakalope wagon? Do you think he's town? What do you think of the case on him (not the lurker case, but the complete turnaround in his reads on me depending on whether or not he thought I was likely to be lynched or not)?

Do you think Bunnylover is likely to be scum? If she is lynched/nightkilled and flips scum, does that make you more suspicious of Dramonic, or does he remain at the same level?

My apologies if you've answered this, but who is your top scum suspect at the moment, and why aren't you voting him or her?

@Mykonian:
I think MoS was mostly answering me and discussing my reads in those posts; therefore if you think they're pointless I think I'm mostly to blame there.

[Banshee]

Banshee. Were you not paying attention in TV Mafia?

You are aware that lurking consistently throughout the game and popping in just to add a vote or a one-line comment is not considered good town play, yeah?

I was scum in TV Mafia and as such didn't care at all that you were lurking, so I didn't call you out on it until I needed/wanted to lynch you. If you are town, you are being useless and playing scummily.

I completely disagree with Mastermind of Sin on the "inexperienced town" bit. Inexperienced town tends to try far too hard. I see no evidence you're trying at all.

[Banshee]

@Mastermind of Sin:

Have you read the game completely once through? Do you think you did so with attention to detail and a careful eye, or was it more a quick run-through to get up to the current page? (Not judging, just asking.)

[Banshee]

Whoops, meant to tack a vote onto my last post, obviously.

Vote: StrangerCoug

No, I haven't read anything from before I replaced in (except for StrangerCoug's ISO last night).

All right. Would you do me the favour of reading Jakalope in ISO, please? It's a short read and it may actually clarify for you why I think he's scum and not inexperienced town.

StrangerCoug and Dramonic are both V/LA due to illness as far as I am aware.

[Banshee]

Meh, I still think TheJakalope is scum and he's doing nothing to change that impression. Also, people seem oddly unwilling to pressure him for reads or to maintain any kind of pressure on him at all.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TheJakalope

[Banshee]

No, it's not. I've never voted for Katsuki, since I don't have a scumread on him or her. My vote is on TheJakalope.

[Banshee]

Claim

: Fraser Hope - Vanllia Townie

Looking like a dead man right now. When I flip town, put Banshee's and Katsuki's play under a microscope. I believe one of them is scum.

chkflip is also a likely candidate for being scum.

Dram is third party, but can be taken care of later.

Just one between me and Katsuki? Or do you mean that to read one or both of us is scum?

Why are you waiting until NOW to post reads when you were claiming you had none previously? What changed in your ability to formulate reads on people?

[Banshee]

No, no. Neither you nor I are conftown, Katsuki, Fate's opinion notwithstanding, because he is not infallible. I would put Mykonian as closer to conftown than either of us because Fate stuck with that particular town read for a really long time and because Fate is dead and scumMyko wouldn't have let that happen at the hands of scum. Even so, even Myko is not CONFIRMED town. He's just the closest we currently have.

[Banshee]

Me using this to call myself conf town is incredibly tacky, but there you have it.

This just makes me want to lynch you to find out if you're lying to me. :p

[Banshee]

I've nominated Mastermind of Sin for Best Replacement for this game. Please see the nomination here and add your votes of support if you're so inclined!