The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Feysal]

So, I'm replacing Katsuki. I was reading along, expecting a slot to open sooner or later, and it happened. Staying up to date on reading this game was not high on my list of priorities though while I was just enjoying the show, meaning I do have some catching up to do. I have read more than half of the game though.

There were some things that caught my attention as I was reading along. SpyreX of course is hinting at being Finduilas like there is no tomorrow. I know, any role could be given to mafia as a false claim, however I find it more likely for town to role play or get into character. Enjoying the thought of being a certain character is something I see coming from a town mindset, particularly if the player is a fan of the theme material. Scum however would not find similar enjoyment in pretending to be a certain character, which would make them less likely to bother with role playing. Therefore I consider SpyreX's hints a town tell.

Furcolow is just plain awful. The last time I played with him he was town, but he also proved there was no limit to the anti-town things he would do. That game he lied about being two different power roles when he was in fact a vanilla townie, among other things I could mention. The bottom line is, I consider it impossible to get an accurate read on him based on the things he says and does, though simply being active may be a town tell for him. I would ask him to at least try to be reasonable though. His flavor post was a perfect example of pure garbage, with half of the flavor being incorrect and the rest unintelligible gibberish with maybe an inkling of truth hidden somewhere.

Speaking of flavor, if my post in the signup thread was not enough of a giveaway, I'm intimately familiar with most of Tolkien's works. I have never actually read the book this game is based on, but I have read at least two versions of the text that book is compiled from. I expect I'd identify most of the characters in this game, with the possible exception of some very minor roles.

What else? Gandalf pretending to be

the

Gandalf is pretty funny. I did see him do something similar in Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den, where he turned out to be town compatible third party. Therefore I don't think it is any sort of alignment tell for him. The amnesiac claim is different though, particularly since Andrius already made a similar claim. I rather doubt there is more than one Nienor Níniel, and I can't remember another amnesiac character in the story. Túrin was pretty out of it on a couple occasions, but he never completely forgot who he was.

So much for now. I have a number of town reads, but until I've caught up and sorted out my thoughts, I'll keep them to myself. More later.

[Feysal]

That seems to be highly subjective and only used to serve the purpose of explaining your town read on SpyreX. Why is it less likely for scum to enjoy imitating their role/fakeclaim? After all, imitating unnatural behaviour is scum's inherent task.

It was an insight I had in My Little Pony Mafia. That game I replaced Espeonage, who in his first post cheered at having received the exact role he wanted. I have a history of trying to choose town slots to replace into, and that reaction, together with a couple other posts, convinced me he was town. I was not mistaken, and in fact I guessed exactly which role he had. I was equally pleased.

In that same game, Equinox role played as Applejack, and since it was so elaborate I thought it was more likely to come from scum, while Espeonage had been more spontaneous. I was proved wrong about that. Now I find that any role playing is more likely to come from town, especially if the player is a fan. What happens when a player receives his role? If it is a town role the player likes, the player may feel inclined to have some fun with it, or react as Espeonage did. If it is a scum role with an attached false claim, the player may feel disappointed, and not bother with any role playing. Suppose your false claim was Finduilas, and your actual role was insignificant nameless orc number 8536 or whatever, how would you feel about it?

To me it looks like SpyreX is having fun and enjoying his role. I am inclined to trust that.

Feysal, be so kind as to point out any mistake I have made other than incorrectly typing the word Noldor.

Did you actually just ask me to humiliate you in public? Glad to oblige, Furc, glad to oblige.

Spoiler: Probably useless flavor, feel free to skip

The sons of Hurin is a reference to men.

Incorrect. I don't recall the expression "sons of Húrin" appearing anywhere in the Silmarillion. The title of the story, and this game, is the Children of Húrin, and it is literally about his children. Húrin and Morwen were the father and mother of Túrin and Nienor.

There are High Elves, and Wood Elves, already, I believe. The Eldar, and the Nolder.

The Eldar is the name for all elves who journeyed west from the east of Middle-Earth, and thus there are no elves in any of Tolkien's works that were not Eldar. The Noldor were a group of Eldar who traveled across the sea, making them one group of high elves, and the only group humans have ever encountered, since the other high elves crossed the sea before humans awoke and never returned. Another significant group of elves were the Sindar or grey-elves, who never crossed the sea and remained in Middle-Earth. There were also green-elves in the southeast of Beleriand, but they have little role in the Silmarillion. The woodland elves refers to the elves east of the Misty Mountains, and they never entered Beleriand at all.

Elves get into human politics at the time...

More like the other way around. Men entered areas where elves had built their kingdoms from the middle of the First Age, and the elves took them as their vassals.

Elves like Maedthros (may-uh-thrOs afaik) were hung up and tortured on the walls of Angmar for hundreds of years where they didn't really die, they just faded away.

Maedhros, not Maedthros. Angband, not Angmar. Maedhros was indeed chained to the mountainside from his hand, but he certainly did not stay there for hundreds of years, nor did he fade away. He was rescued, losing his hand in the process, and appears prominently throughout the Silmarillion. Not in this tale though.

Humans hit this world, Manwe favoring them in a sense, and hit it hard tbh. The elves had gone from living in the land of the Valar (kind of like the pantheon in Greek, but it's an "island to the west", where Frodo sailed off too at the denoument of the Return of the King) there have been evil invading the good parts of everything throughout the Silmarillion (I know this is a different book) for instance, Ungoliant, a gigantic spider, was a 3rd party a little bit before this time that was recruited by Sauron or Melkor to assault these trees... you know the white tree symbol of Gondor? Yeah. It was around that time that Melkor really coveted these things that Feanor crafted... Feanor put his soul into them, they were like gems, although I am a little iffy on the 3 rings given to the elves, I believe 7 to the dwarf lords, and the 9 ones given to men amongst them the Witch King (he wasn't the Witch King then) and shit, but it is similar to that. Objects can have powers, as the palantir do in LOTR. Here they were these elf stones that he coveted.

This is where you really start to ramble, mix up things from different books that have nothing to do with each other, but there are at least some grains of truth in the mix.

First off, humans really did not hit the world all that hard. In this age the world was still very much dominated by the elves, and the humans were newcomers who served as their vassals, or as servants of Morgoth. They were certainly not favored by Manwe, and there is no indication that he was even aware of their existence until the end of the war.

It was the Noldor who had crossed the sea and settled in Valinor, the realm of the Valar. Melkor was imprisoned there, but he was pardoned and allowed to move freely. He betrayed the Valar, and together with Ungoliant he destroyed the two trees that illuminated Valinor. This happened before the sun and moon existed, and the sun and moon were fashioned from the last blossom of each tree. After that, the living light of the trees lived on only in the three Silmarils Feänor had created, and Melkor stole them, which prompted Feänor to name him as Morgoth, rebel against the Valar, and return to Middle-Earth with his people as exiles from Valinor.

The trees of Valinor had nothing whatsoever to do with the white tree of Gondor, nor did the Silmarils have much in common with the Rings of Power. Feänor did say he could only create them once, but the true reason why they were precious was not because he had put his soul in their making, but because of the light that lived in them alone.

Some elves, like Fingolfin, would directly stand up to Melkor. Feanor was different. He felt, being the eldest son, he should take over. It didn't happen, so his father actually left with him when abdicating the throne of the high elves. They went to a different land. Eventually, like I've stated, the elves came under siege and treachery from Melkor... Feanor returned, his 2nd brother whose name I forgot actually felt like he should be king... I'm really rusty on all of this, I haven't read it all in about 9 or 10 years.

You must be rusty indeed, because none of this is even close to being correct.

Feänor led the Noldor to exile from Valinor, and seized the ships of the Teleri to carry them across the sea. He had the ships burned, abandoning his brother Fingolfin behind. His second brother Finarfin led part of the Noldor back, who would not participate in the rebellion against the Valar any further. Feänor, together with his sons and their people, challenged Melkor to battle, where Feänor was slain. His father Finwë never abdicated, instead he was murdered by Melkor when he stole the Silmarils, and he never left anywhere with Feänor, what with both of them being dead. The one who abdicated was Maedhros, the eldest son of Feänor, in favor of Fingolfin, who took a more perilous route to Middle-Earth.

Onto the dwarves, created by Aule, they are not as prevalent. The only dwarf who is really prevalent around this time period is Mim, but we don't really have to worry about him, as he largely worked with the elves and humans against evil. He was sort of treacherous, but if he's in the game he will not be affiliated with Melkor/Angmar whatsoever who will be evil.

I think we do need to concern ourselves with Mîm. He may not have been in league with Morgoth, but he did aid the orcs in their assault upon Túrin and his company for petty revenge. The treacherous little petty-dwarf should die with a dart in his throat, I say.

The humans I am really, really, really hazy on. I know Hurin was the head of the line that Turin was on, so Turin Turambar is probably our hero.

Like I said before, Húrin and Túrin are father and son. By this statement you have also confessed to knowing almost nothing of the tale this game is based on.

The human host was located south of Angmar, and were the direct front of the brunt of the forces in battles. Gondolin was south of it, the wood elves were to the east, and those were the ones that associated with the dwarves most as they were north of the eastern elves and to the east of Angmar.

Humans at the time dwelt in various lands in Beleriand, and in lands to the north. And as I said, there were no woodland elves in Beleriand at all. If you're confusing them with green-elves, you're still wrong, since they were settled in the southeast of Beleriand, not east of Angband. The dwarf cities of Belegost and Nogrod were near, but the dwarves had dealings most with the Noldor, since Caranthir the son of Feänor ruled the lands the dwarves traveled through to Doriath, the kingdom of the grey-elves.

TL;DR

: Furcolow is far more clueless about the flavor than he thinks, and no one should trust him about anything flavor-related. The one thing he said in his post that may be relevant to this game was about Mîm the petty-dwarf, and I don't agree with him being harmless at all.

If it wasn't for you having a grudge against me ever since I endgamed you as scum, I would be voting you, but I saw in Cold War that you're not going to let that shit go, Feysal.

So, you're still pretending that your play in Cold War Mafia was not horribly scummy, and that I had to have a grudge against you to think so. Let me set you straight. You are a dreadful player. In Cold War Mafia you repeatedly lied, were caught lying, and then lied some more. You were hell bent on keeping your useless vanilla town self alive, and you were being hideously anti-town. Try any of that shit in this game, and I promise you death will find you swiftly.

[Feysal]

Feysal: Is it fair to say that you'll always give town vibes regardless of actual role?

The only time I ever heard that before was in an off-site game, the only scum game I've ever won, to my eternal amazement. I don't think it is common at all for me to give town vibes, I'm far more used to being suspected for not posting often enough or for withholding my vote too long.

Come to think of it -

Unvote: LordChronos

I'm not very clear on why Katsuki was voting him, need to finish reading and then decide where my vote goes.

[Feysal]

The Misty Mountains didn't even exist yet. You realize there are breakings of the world when coming into a new age, right?

You are making yourself ridiculous. The world was indeed broken in the wars, but the Misty Mountains existed before that. Where do you think Khazad-dûm was located? When do you think it was founded?

I hope you're joking. Seedlings, and all.

The original white tree was made in the image of one of the great trees, but it was certainly not a seedling from it. In any case, trying to explain what the trees of the Valar were by inviting comparison with the white tree of Gondor is ridiculous. The trees of the Valar were sources of brilliant light, and tall as mountains. The white trees, not so much.

Secondly, the silmarils and the rings are definitely tied together. Sad you don't realize it.

This ought to be good. Do explain, because I maintain there is no link whatsoever between the silmarils and the rings. They belong in different tales altogether.

Thirdly, you are hitting LATER than I intended with the Fëanor thing. You should go back and study when Ungoliant attacked, and right before. Fëanor was DEFINITELY exiled. Sorry you missed that.

Why, so he was. What I still don't understand is why you would even bring up those events. They are in no way relevant to the Children of Húrin story, and neither are they necessary for understanding the bigger picture.

And the children, or "sons of Húrin" as I have called them is a term I have used for lineage. Sorry you took it at face value.

It is a term you made up, and hugely misleading, serving only to confuse Empking about what the story behind this game was. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't make stuff up, it is better not to talk at all.

I disagree with this.
1) Mîm led them to safety
2) He forgave Túrin for slaying his own child
He could

easily

be good in this story.

If Mîm is good in this game, it is only because this is a bastard mod game. Mîm did lead Túrin to his home, but only as ransom for sparing his life. And he did not forgive the slaying of his son, which was not done by Túrin, but by one of the outlaws who followed him, who Mîm laid a curse on. I will grant that when Mîm betrayed the outlaws to the orcs, he wanted to have Túrin spared, but he was a traitor nevertheless.

I would wager that when I get finished rereading about Túrin Turambar, I will be far more adept at the flavor than you.

That'll be the day.

On to Cold War... You replaced into that game, and got lynched as town. What happened to me? I eventually became confirmed town.

You incompetent hack. I freely admit that Cold War Mafia was one of my worst games, but the reason I was mislynched was an inconsistency in role PMs. As for you, after all your lies you made a lucky guess and usurped credit for a successful vigilante kill. That was the only reason I believed you were town in that game, and had it not been for that, I would have wanted your head on a pike. So don't try to act as if your play in that game was somehow brilliant. You kept stumbling from one blunder to another, and just like in Stars Aligned III, you became confirmed only through blind luck and not through any skillful play on your part.

[Feysal]

Feysal is pretty likely scum. He's generally much more useful as town. I think the pissing match is an attempt to cover the fact that when he's scum, he usually doesn't have much to say.

I suppose it is time I began to address this.

It is true that I did not have much to say. But before you assume the reasons for this to be sinister in nature, I would like to remind you that I replaced into this game two days ago. Two days. That is barely enough time for me to get my bearings in a large theme game twenty pages long, even one that I was already reading, though it helped. For those two days I was keeping up with and responding to recent posts, including those by Furcolow. I realize of course the flavor was useless, why did you think I wrote "feel free to skip" on the spoiler tag? I simply had nothing better to do then, and I did enjoy watching Furcolow whine and wail about me supposedly having a grudge against him, and making an ass out of himself. Perhaps I had a bit too much fun with that, but it was not entirely wasted effort either. I can now safely ignore Furcolow for the rest of the game, since he is acting just like the useless village idiot I've grown accustomed to scorn, and he is probable town. That does not mean I would not like him to be vigged, and since now I've seen him actually ask for it, I don't even have to feel sorry about it.

Without further ado, I am now completely caught up with the game. I still have to do more ISO reads later and probably meta checks too, but for now I can at least start contributing something worthwhile.

TOWN READS
I am pressed for time right now, so I will leave out the reasons for these for now. If you want to know, you can ask. Stronger reads on top.
mockingjaye
PeregrineV
MagnaofIllusion
Dekes
SpyreX
Furcolow
Gut
Wraith
Magister Ludi
Ellibereth

NULL READS
Chronopie
Sun and Moon
Espeonage
Mastermind of Sin
Will-o-wisp
LordChronos

UNKNOWN
Andrius
gandalf5166

SCUM READS
Empking
- I have not yet checked the meta case on him, so this is partly because I have faith in MoI. However his ISO is full of nothing. His posts are mostly useless one-liners, and of the few posts that are not the majority are where he defends himself from MoI. I also really disliked his post #575, partly because PeregrineV is high in my town reads and I know there is no link between us, and partly because suspecting me does not match the implication that he got town vibes from me in post #531.

VitaminR
- For starters, post #228. He digs up a random vote to use as a reason to suspect PeregrineV, and ignored the much more useless random vote by Mastermind of Sin. I can understand finding a random vote suspicious, I was given grief myself the only time I ever used a die roll for that. MoS does that every game, but if VitaminR finds that sort of thing suspicious, I'd think he'd at least mention it. Then the explanation in post #359 is even worse. He says the vote was suspicious because using a joke reason took all potential pressure away from it. What? Most random votes I've seen have made up reasons, such as the player's avatar wearing a bowler hat, if they have any reasons at all. This is perfectly normal and accepted, and does not reduce the effectiveness of the votes at all. VitaminR should know better, and the way he singles out PeregrineV after Will-o-wisp already called attention to the same vote just reeks.

kanyeknowsbest
- Need I even explain this? Focused exclusively on Gandalf, barely even mentions anything else happening in game. Then there is mockingjaye's analysis in post #357, which I agree with completely.

Now which one to vote... I think I'd prefer VitaminR in fact, but since there is no wagon there that vote would probably be wasted.

Vote: kanyeknowsbest

I am way happier with it than Kanye, because of his logical fallacy (ad hominem) involving me.

Cut out the martyr act. You are a terrible player, everyone knows that, including yourself, since you eagerly play the village idiot card to defend yourself. I can say you are terrible without any ad hominem being involved. Oh, and ad hominem is not a logical fallacy. You trying to claim it is?

That

is a fallacy.

I find it especially hilarious that in the same post you first explained what OMGUS was, and then vote me for calling you an idiot.

[Feysal]

I don't consider myself a village idiot.
I find ad hominem to be a scumslip.
I'm voting you for a scumslip.

You are a village idiot. Do I need to link to posts where you admit to being one? We had this exact same conversation in Cold War Mafia. Someone who calls himself a village idiot to dodge accusations does not get to scream ad hominem when someone else calls him that.

Quit arguing semantics, and get some rope.

*laugh*

You say this after making an argument that is pure semantics? The way you blend incompetence with hypocrisy is amazing.

Hey Feysal you CAN have town/scum reads on Gandalf and I.
Its not like we don't exist on the same plane.
Our necks still fit through a noose.

Actually that is exactly what I cannot do. You have both said that you don't know what your alignment is, and trying to make a judgement based on your behavior when even you don't know what you are is impossible. I could judge you on whether or not you're telling the truth though. If yes, your alignments are up in the air, and if not, that would make you scum.

The fact that I have not listed either of you as a scum read and that you have your own category should tell you something. I don't fully trust either of you, but neither do I see anything that would warrant seeking your immediate deaths. I am willing to wait for you to remember who you are before deciding.

[Feysal]

Yet again, your only goal here is to discredit me, when better players than you have been impressed with my play this game.

Spoiler: Impressions of Furcolow by other players:

FUCK YOU FURCOLOW ITS MAEDHROS. MY FAVORITE NOLDOR.

Furcolow's summary is not town. Posting flavor for others is a way of faking content. Sadly, Furco's always a

smurf

so this is going to get interesting.

Furcolow. I don't care.

Furc is entertaining.

You can be day two lynch.

Furc's summary doesn't make any sense.

Elli and Furc are being slightly anti-town.

Ok, stonewall.

Vote: Furcolow

As much as I'd like to vote Furc for being his normal terrible self I don't see his reaction as scum-driven at this point.

Vig List

1. Master Ludi
2. Furc (by request)
3. See what shapes up day2, then pick another player.

Read up. Furcolow can be for vigging.

You have a fifth of the posts in the game and for the most part, they are useless.

Furcolow

- Typical Furc play, mostly being an overreacting idiot.

Nice impressions there. The only positive comment anyone has made about your play is mockingjaye in post #555. You really don't need me to discredit you, since you do it so well to yourself. In fact I don't even feel like I need to respond to the nonsense in the rest of your post, that would only perpetuate this battle of walls. I am amused though that you think I'm tunneling on you. Seems to me like it's the other way around.

I do not consider myself a village idiot, and you calling me one and berating me will definitely get me to get the mod in on this if you don't stop.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Calling you a village idiot is an accurate characterization of your play, and one you have used of yourself whenever it has suited you. It is no more ad hominem or calling you names than calling a scum player scum. If you can't stand having your play scrutinized by other players, mafia is not the game for you.

[Feysal]

My play doesn't deserve scrutiny this game.

Good grief. Having your play scrutinized is what the game of online mafia is all about. You are not above scrutiny, no more than anyone else.

I should've known better than to think you could be reasoned with. You can die by the hand of a vigilante, just like you asked.

Agreed on Feysal. The continued bitching with Furcolow is scummy and distracting as hell. Funnily enough, his replacing in has helped me get a better read on him. His town/scum lists are a bit too general with no personal edge and me being the 5th highest town read is lol. And it all results in voting his counter wagon after all.

Before you pass any such judgement, I'd recommend you have a look at Cold War Mafia and what happened between me and Furcolow that game. I abhor his play and would be delighted to see him dead, though I would not waste a lynch on him. I can see I made a mistake by even talking to him, allowing him to drag me down to his level, but that is not a mistake I am likely to repeat.

I have more of an issue with what you say of my reads though. If you're going to criticize them, then I would have you say what exactly is wrong with them instead of a vague comment about them being too general and not having enough personal edge. Would you have me ignore some suspects just because others have mentioned them already? Would you have me making cases on new and exciting targets no one else is interested in, and which have little chance of leading anywhere? I picked three people for whom my suspicions were strongest, and voted the one who already had a wagon.

You may have a problem with my vote, but I also have one with yours. What do you find PeregrineV vote-worthy for? I played against him in a game this summer, where I correctly identified him as scum and tried to kill him on the first night, though my attempt failed. His approach to this game seems very different, and I find myself in agreement with things he has said. For that I believe him town.

First of all, the random vote was a pretty minor thing that I only went on about because PeregrineV asked me about it. I just feel scum is a bit more likely to call attention to the randomness of their vote, because it's safer. But this was pretty early in the game. I just wanted to put some pressure on PeregrineV for what I saw as lazy votes. Don't try to construe this into something really meaningful.

Yet that was the very thing that caught my attention. It seemed to me as though it was a weak excuse for a weak vote, and that I found suspicious. I have never heard anyone mention a tell like that, and I can think of more than enough examples of town posting made up reasons for random votes to consider it null.

The one time I used a die roll to decide who to random vote, I did it because I was being pestered to vote and I used a die out of annoyance. I was criticized for that not because I'd given a reason, but because randomizing my vote made it completely uninformative, which was something scum would like to do. I was town so I did not think it was a strong tell, but at least I found the concept understandable. Yours, no. Given what your join date is, I'd imagine you've seen numerous town players post joke reasons for their random votes.

There was also the timing of that comment, shortly after the same random vote was mentioned in another context. Frankly I find it weird how one perfectly normal random vote generated that much interest.

[Feysal]

Now this is surprising. I was pretty much picturing vultures circling over kanye and myself, and with both wagons at a stalemate I was anticipating a deadline scramble. I was already considering claiming now, so the decision could at least be an informed one, allowing the final wagons to be more readily analyzed after the fact, whichever of us ended up being lynched. And suddenly I see some of the key people pushing for my lynch wavering and considering other suspects. I know, you still think I'm scum, but I'll take what I can get. I did not replace into this game just to be summarily lynched.

I of course expect there to be scum both on my wagon and off it, and I've been looking at people who suspect me and people who claim not to, trying to sort out whose reasoning looks most suspect. I find it weird of course that both Andrius and Gandalf are voting me, and that they both unvoted and revoted accidentally. Furcolow was there too, seeing me as scum together with Will-o-wisp for I have no clue why. Wrong as usual. The one whose reason looks most suspicious though is Empking with his theory that PeregrineV was coaching me. I was about to shout at him for it, but there were two reasons why I cannot. The first is that PeregrineV has been missing for a while which made me uneasy about my initial town read on him, and the second is that once I thought about it, what PeregrineV said was indeed strange. I could easily see that as an overdone white knighting attempt.

Having noted PeregrineV's absence, I had a look at the activity overview, and discovered he had been gone for five days, longer by far than any other player. I next looked at his sitewide activity, to see if perhaps he was on an unannounced V/LA. Turns out that after his last post in this game, PeregrineV has posted over 60 times in other games, and signed up for one more.

This is Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den all over again. I might as well copypaste my case on PeregrineV from that game, because his disappearing act matches his scum meta perfectly. Simply put, I see PeregrineV as the type to lurk as scum, and he is doing an awful lot of that now. I liked his early posts, but not nearly enough to let this slide.

And to think that I criticized Dekes for still having his vote on PeregrineV... Now I'm about to join him. Seeing PeregrineV also on the kanye wagon gives me major doubts about that.

Unvote: kanyeknowsbest
Vote: PeregrineV

Our time is running out, and the way this is going, we need to consolidate our votes on one target quickly. I have lost faith on the kanye wagon, and right now PeregrineV is my best bet. For some strange reason he managed to evade being lynched for days in Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den, and seeing him slip into lurker mode again, I'll be damned before I give him a pass.

*ENGAGE CHEERLEADING MODE*

@VitaminR

: You voted PeregrineV earlier today. How do you feel about him now? What do you think about the case I provided? Would you vote him again?

@Empking

: I know you think PeregrineV and I are scum together. I don't care if you think I've decided to bus him, as long as you vote him. You're wrong about me, but I think you're right about him, and I'd much rather watch him flip from this thread than from the Haudh-en-Ndengin.

@Andrius

: I don't know if you have any real influence over a voting bloc, but if you do, put it to some good use. Have a look at PeregrineV, how active he is in other games compared to here, and then try to tell me he is not scum.

@Everyone else

: It looks like PeregrineV has passed through the day with fairly little attention on him. It is high time this was remedied. What do you think about him? Would you vote him?

I may yet end up lynched, but if I do, I will have done something useful before I go.

[Feysal]

Just so I fully understand, not only do I go from the 2nd strongest town read, but now I'm scum, and you are asking your 3-4 scum reads to vote for me?

Pretty much yes.

So, if you can, walk me through those pulse-pounding five days from Post 601 to Post 757. Include not only my scummy activity, but the town activity that your 4 scumreads provided.

Your activity over those five days can be summarized with one word. None. This despite the fact that you have been around and posting in other games. That is the exact same reason I read you as scum in Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den, and tried to kill you twice, succeeding the second time. You were scum of course, and I was a serial killer, going for a joint win with town.

The reason I initially read you as town was because I liked your early posts, #284 and #295 in particular. I have played with you before with you as town and as scum, and the research I did on your play during last game indicated you typically lurk as scum. This belief of mine was only reinforced when I made the correct call based on it. Therefore I read you as town while you were active and seemed to be scumhunting, and the read was made stronger since I agreed with the focus on your random vote being strange. But the way you vanished off the face of the Earth changed all that.

As for what my suspects have done to appear more town, the answer is nothing much. The reasons I considered them suspicious are still there. I believe that kanye has been supremely unhelpful and apathetic, even to his own lynch, and the same applies to Empking. But, that does not mean I would be right about them, I could be wrong about one, or both. In fact, the way they both voted you without so much as blinking makes me think I was probably wrong, provided I'm right about you being scum. It had occurred to me that Empking could be scum with you, and the way he linked me to you could be distancing with the built in security that once I flip, he would not have reason to push you further. That was a theory mind you, the way he voted you makes me think it unlikely.

vote: peregrinev

feysal, i haven't ever really thought you were scum, i was voting you and calling you scum because you are an asshole to me

I would like you to point out where I was being an asshole to you, since you're now voting me.

That comment was not directed at you, I'm sure it was for me.

Oh wow, so a bunch of people are going to jump onto a completely random lurkerwagon started by FEYSAL who was joined by SPYREX and KANYE?

Fail.

Lurkerwagon, fair enough. Random, no. I believe that PeregrineV lurking is indicative of him being scum, and I can point to a past game where this belief resulted in me correctly vigging him. I'm also not concerned about who is with me on the wagon. It will be more information somewhere down the line.

You quoted my reads to show Fey is inconsistent? Bad distancing.

The inconsistency is real though. Being consistent is fine, but one should not be afraid to leave consistency by the wayside when observing something new.

Why aren't we lynching Kanye?

My reason is that I recognize I could be wrong about kanye, and I'm likely to be, if my suspicion of PeregrineV is correct.

The speed with which a wagon on Peregrine formed and Kanye's dissolved makes me think a couple of possibilities. I haven't really been able to discuss with my partner as she has been MIA with schoolwork (come back Mist ), but I am not liking this Peregrine wagon at all.

1) Scum are white knighting Kanye and thus want to lynch a for a flip with less information acquisition
2) Scum are looking for a place to park their votes so that they do not appear scummy voting for Kanye or Feysal at the moment and thus Peregrine is a better option
3) Scum are pushing a lynch on Peregrine because Kanye is a potentially powerful scum role

1) I hardly think that this wagon would result in less information than if it had not happened at all. The fact that it became a speedwagon, and the players who joined it, can both prove significant later. What I find very interesting right now is that Andrius was trying to start a wagon on yourself, and despite his talk of a voting bloc, it fizzled. I'm suspected by rather more people than Andrius is, and yet I'm having much more success. That surprises me, and I'm curious about which invisible string I pulled to make it happen. That, I'm sure, will be of interest later.

2) Dekes already asked why, and you answered, but...

Speed wagoning Pere would seem less scummy because a lot of people are already doing it,

so choosing which person who speed wagoned looks most scummy based on the fact of the speed wagon would be a hard feat to accomplish

. It would be a safe vote because he is inactive and it seems to be the "viable alternative" to the other two wagons.

Could you rephrase the underlined part? No matter how many times I read it, I can't understand what you're trying to say.

3) If they wanted to save kanye, why a third wagon? If it was kanye, all the scum would have to do is pile on me like Andrius has been asking people to.

[Feysal]

dunno. Still waiting on someone to answer my meta question about Furc.

Furcolow answered it himself...

I put in less, and I lurk, unless it comes to coordinating nightkills, with which I am pretty fiery.

For what it's worth, I can confirm this. I have played with Furcolow as town twice, and as scum once. The scum game was Mafia Holographica, where Furcolow lurked his way through the game, and after the town had destroyed itself by infighting, he endgamed me. Don't know about the night kill coordination part, but since that does not happen in public anyway, who cares.

I'm pretty sure that Furcolow is town this game. He tends to be spammy as town, and true to that meta he has a significant share of the posts in this thread to his name. Metas can be faked of course, but to tell the truth, I don't think Furcolow has it in him.

[Feysal]

I don't take much stock in people claiming self-meta, mostly because everyone gives me shit for it when I do the same. I don't see any point in returning the favor.

Of course. In this case though, I can say that the self-meta Furcolow provided was accurate, in my experience with his play.

[Feysal]

What exactly happened yesterday after I went on V/LA again? There were two rather viable lynches and suddenly in 5 pages Peregrine gets wagoned and lynched?

I made a case on PeregrineV, and several people joined the wagon. I am surprised though by how many there were, and how easily it happened. I hoped for the wagon to succeed, but I never expected it to be that easy.

Every single one of you on this wagon needs to explain in detail why you were voting for him.

I made the case that started it all, you can read in more detail there why I believed PeregrineV was scum. The short version of it was that I had seen him both as town and scum, his behavior here matched what I'd seen of his scum play, and I felt empowered by the fact that I'd correctly vigged him before for it.

You know what, I just remembered something. Kanye can wait, because FEYSAL started the Peregrine lurkerwagon to save his own skin.

That I did, but even though I do have an interest in survival, I'm not sure it was my own life that it saved. I wanted to avoid a deadline scramble that could have resulted in either of us being lynched, and which would have made the deadline votes difficult to analyze. But, at the time I posted my case on PeregrineV, I was no longer the leading wagon, and the people who had been pushing for my lynch had gone on V/LA or were losing steam. By that point, I felt the Kanye wagon was more likely to succeed.

When the hell is it ever a better idea to go after a lurker so close to deadline? You receive barely any information on their flip.

You don't receive any more information from leaving lurkerscum alive and lynching them later. And for the record, there had been a few people who had given opinions of PeregrineV, and vice versa. Had PeregrineV been scum, that would have improved my reads of those people.

Why did you have me as town yesterday?

Weak town, mind you, since you were last on the list. I've seen your town play before, and what I saw from you here fell into expectations.

@Feysal - The Seraph QT is requesting that you claim your Rolename, Alignment, and Night-action from N1 in your next post.

So it is truth or dare. I will dare to tell the truth. I don't see how it could make my situation any worse.

Kullervo, son of Kalervo,
drew forth his sharp sword,
turning it he looked upon it,
questioning it, inquiring it.
Asked the sword of its opinion,
if the blade might know desire,
to devour his blemished body,
to drink the blood of the wicked.

Understood the sword his mind,
guessed the meaning of the hero,
answered him in words as follows:
"Why should I not eat with relish,
feast upon your flawed flesh,
drink your wicked blood dry?
I do thrive on guiltless flesh,
drink the blood of the innocent."

Kullervo, son of Kalervo,
child of fathers fine and noble,
thrust the hilt into the meadow,
set the haft upon the heather,
aimed the point toward his heart,
threw himself upon the point.
Thus he wrought his own undoing,
met the death of his own making.

I am Gurthang, self-aligned, and I tried to kill Furcolow last night as he requested. I don't know why he survived.

For those who care about the flavor, I am the sword of Beleg Cúthalion and later of Túrin Turambar, with which he slew Beleg and Brandir, Glaurung the dragon, a multitude of orcs, and finally himself. The poem above is not from my role flavor, but what I sent to Plum in my confirmation post. It is my translation of an excerpt from the tale of Kullervo from the Kalevala, which served as inspiration for the Children of Húrin tale, in particular the scene where Túrin commits suicide.

Also, Feysal, I can't believe you targetted me.
Talk about wrathfulness.
You're not a town vig either.

You asked for it. Nothing wrathful about that.

[Feysal]

@Feysal – At this juncture you need to claim your full win condition.

Can't say I would not have seen this coming. I have a list of targets whose death I must bring about, flavor names only. I'm not required to personally kill them all, but I can't let any of them live. The list consists of mostly town I'm sure, but not exclusively, since Glaurung is on it. Beleg was too.

Dollars to donuts it is "Have Feysal kill Thurin (or whatever the main person's name is)" if Furc isn't bullshitting.

For what it matters, I believe Furcolow. His claim of Mîm adds up, and at one point I had a hunch that would be his role based on the flavor talk. Furcolow appeared quite clueless about the Children of Húrin tale, so the fact that he knew who Mîm was stood out, as did his insistence that Mîm could be town-friendly. As far as flavor goes, Mîm offered to share his home with Túrin and his band of outlaws as ransom for his life. It makes sense that he would shift his allegiance to his would-be killer in the game to be spared. Now I see why Furcolow wanted to be targeted by a town vigilante, but I think he was out of luck. With me here, I doubt there is a town killing role in play.

So, it looks like Furcolow is allied to me now. At least I got one good laugh out of this game, if nothing else.

And we know that content free Chronopie was the mafia kill, because?

Who else would have killed him? I targeted Furcolow.

Curiously enough, I almost submitted Chronopie as my kill. Furcolow asking to be killed changed my mind. The fact that Chronopie turned out to be one of my targets is such irony.

[Feysal]

I see the town is divided on whether to wield me against their enemies, or to cast me in the meltdown pile. I would of course prefer to live, and there are some arguments I can offer in my favor.

Leashed Serial Killers are never a good idea. Why? They have no long term motivation to actually help Town.

I'm not going to argue theory with you. I recognize it would be a futile effort, and you would not change your mind. However, I would point out that you make a mistake in rigidly applying the same theory to all situations and all players. The last time I played against you I criticized you for using generic tells, by which I meant that all tells are not applicable to all players, and their significance varies. Likewise, all players do not adhere to the same theory. I claim to be an exception. I can point to evidence that I am motivated by more things than just my win condition, and you would do well to consider it.

Like Gandalf mentioned, I was a serial killer in Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den. In that game, most of the town players were killed in early game, and town victory was only saved by the third parties, myself included, cooperating to bring about a shared victory with town. What is more, I kept notes during the game in a private QuickTopic, which show that I was working toward a shared victory from the very start, and not just after my role was revealed. There was but one time when I consciously chose a lesser suspect to attack, since I doubted that I could kill my higher suspect all by myself, and even then I tried to kill the wagonee most likely to be scum. I also went out of my way to alert the town to the potential danger of working with the adventurers. Doing so did not serve my own victory in any way, on the contrary I claimed I could only win with town posthumously.

This is the only time I have ever been third party. You say that the average serial killer would have no long term motivation to help town. I do, and I have displayed this in a past game. Can you say that your theory and examples of other players would be more important than this example of how I handled a third party role?

[Feysal]

He probably has a list of role names, so he doesn't know which players are "on his list", meaning any kill is equally good if it helps him survive, unless people start claiming role names.

This is correct. I don't know which players are my targets, if I did, this would be easy.

@Feysal: do you need to survive in order to win?

No. I only need to outlive my targets.

[Feysal]

Feysal... just a quick question - Didn't those games have a point system that rewarded goals and made it possible for multiple factions to win?

Indeed it did. My win condition in that game did not rule out winning with town, although it was not supposed to be possible unless I died. Nevertheless, my argument was that I can and could cooperate with town, and in that game I went further with it than was necessary to ensure my own victory.

What I want to know from Feysal, though, is how many targets he has, the exact nature of his wincon, and his kill flavor if specified.

Four targets, three remain alive. I win if I still live when all my targets are dead. My kill flavor is not specified.

[Feysal]

I have been effectively gone for the weekend and more, and need to pick up my play here quickly. Then again, I wonder if you would be even interested in my thoughts on players? Last I checked, it was well established that I was not town, since no town would make that third party claim, and it was confirmed by Furcolow too. As such, it would be common sense to suspect I would have ulterior motives. Since I am third party though and have no more inside information than the average townie, I can offer genuine opinions, and if it aids in my survival it is in my interest to do so too. Whether you heed me or ignore me is up to you.

I see kanye is still the leading wagon. I still feel, as I did yesterday, that kanye is unlikely to be scum. I can see the argument that either me or kanye would have to be scum, considering the difficulty of lynching either one of us, and how easily the votes shifted to PeregrineV instead. What I don't understand is that if kanye was mafia, and I know I'm not, why did the votes not shift to me when Andrius was pushing for my lynch? PeregrineV may have seemed more appealing for the simple fact that I looked likely to take the fall for that, but I don't see why joining my wagon would have been any worse. Unless there already was scum on my wagon who could fall under suspicion for my mislynch - the mafia could not have known what my role was, so they must have expected me to be town and acted accordingly.

I have some pages to read and probably replies to make, but those will have to wait until later. I have stayed up too long as it is to read posts in another game.

[Feysal]

Caught up. Time for replies.

Well if we aren’t killing Feysal I’m laying down two lists. Any shots outside this group result in me begging Minaday for a Daykill tomorrow morning –

Actively scummy

– Dekes, Espeonage, Empking

Lurkers / Active lurkers

– Wraith, Sun and Moon

Quoting this mostly to acknowledge that I've seen it. And the inclusion of MoS and Wraith within a few posts.

Feysal clearly doesn't have the interests of the town at heart, since he did NOT kill Gandalf last night and instead (supposedly) tried to kill Furcolow just because Furc asked him to. He's scum, and there's no way I trust him to kill who he's supposed to.

Disagree with your conclusion and reasoning both. Furcolow claimed that vigging him would have pro-town consequences, and so I targeted him. Even if he had not asked for it, I did not consider Gandalf, and I don't understand why I should necessarily have targeted him if I wanted to be pro-town. Even actual town can disagree on reads, and for the record, I don't think Gandalf is either a jester or scum.

But if you were both not Mafia why would neither wagon have gone through in the first place? This is the part of the argument you don't have an answer for.

I don't know either, and I can't know. However, it pays to remember that there was necessarily town on the PeregrineV wagon, probably the majority of it. I would venture a guess that many of those townies felt dissatisfied with the wagons on me and kanye, they may have genuinely believed PeregrineV to be more likely to be scum, or they were simply tired of the long day and when something happened that looked likely to bring the day to a close, they joined in. It was probably all of that, combined with scum joining in the mislynch. I would imagine that the scum were surprised by the sudden momentum, in which case the early voters on the wagon would be less likely to be scum.

I think that in the end, arguments like these overestimate the influence of the mafia on the lynch choice. Scum don't want to be seen leading town into mislynches after all, and if they tried, they may simply have been unable to persuade townies to join in lynching either me or kanye. Now that I think of it, it may have been in the best interest of the scum team to wait for town to make the final move to decide who to lynch, and then pile on to avoid a no lynch, thus dodging most of the blame. So yes, I can see both of us being non-mafia. Indifference from the scum about who is lynched can indicate that neither choice is scum.

I do remember that Andrius was pushing for my lynch quite strongly at the time. That is the only thing that gives me any serious doubt about whether kanye is town, since Andrius could have been scum trying to save his partner.

What do you do to a uber-lurking Hydra that has provided zero content all game long when one of the heads, whose excuse for said lack of content was "I have no time and am overloaded", turns around and signs up for a new game as a solo player?

???

Okay, on one hand I completely agree on that being scummy, and reason to lynch. But on the other hand...

Having noted PeregrineV's absence, I had a look at the activity overview, and discovered he had been gone for five days, longer by far than any other player. I next looked at his sitewide activity, to see if perhaps he was on an unannounced V/LA. Turns out that after his last post in this game, PeregrineV has posted over 60 times in other games, and signed up for one more.

Deja vu? That sounds almost exactly like my reason for suspecting PeregrineV. The only difference is that he was a solo player, and did not claim to be overloaded. Otherwise, the behaviors match. So I have to ask, why was the case on PeregrineV bad, and how is the case on Sun and Moon any better?

[Feysal]

That picture above was meant to say "LOL, what is this, I don't even."

It was my theorizing on why the wagons on me and kanye may have stalled despite neither of us being mafia, based on the recognition that there must have been town on the PeregrineV wagon. The common assumption seems to be that the PeregrineV wagon may have been driven by scum to save their buddy kanye, but that may not have been the case. My theory is that the mafia did not care which one of us would be lynched, resulting in the wagons stalling due to town indecision, and the PeregrineV wagon may have been the result of town dissatisfaction with existing wagons and the desire to end the long day.

The question I keep coming back to is why was I not lynched if kanye was scum? If scum joined the PeregrineV wagon to save their buddy, and gave little reason for doing so, why had they not joined my wagon when Andrius was trying to have me lynched?

First off, you believed someone in a bastard game when they volunteered to be killed and said it would be good for the town? WTF?

Yes. What else can I say? I believed Furcolow was town, and precisely because this is a bastard game, I thought it possible he would have some pro-town intent in having himself vigged. It definitely did not seem like an anti-town ploy either.

Secondly, quoting this post for posterity so I can laugh at you later when/if gandalf comes up as non-town.

I note that you included the when/if clause, meaning you're not exactly sure of Gandalf being non-town either. I could be wrong, it happens, but that is just part of the game. I'm not going to drop my own opinion in favor of yours just because you say so.

Vote: VitaminR

Looking at where the wagons are, this one seems most promising to me.

[Feysal]

Less than an hour to go until deadline, and again we have two competing wagons, and again one of them is on kanye. Now, I continue to think that kanye is more likely to be town than not, but after reading the last few posts from VitaminR, I have to say the same about him. Claiming vanilla town when being wagoned is not survival oriented, and I would expect scum to come up with some minor power role claim in an effort to save themselves at this stage. It looks to me that we may have two wagons on town.

Now, I have to consider which flip would give more information and help in advancing the game, and there is no question that it is kanye. Many players are stuck on him, so the situation needs to be resolved somehow. If kanye turns out to be a mislynch, and I expect he will, at least the town can be free of this distraction.

Unvote: VitaminR
Vote: kanyeknowsbest

I can put my vote back on VitaminR if necessary to achieve a lynch.

[Feysal]

Well, that was that. I note that enough people did post after my switch for us to have lynched kanye, but that opportunity has passed.

Unvote: kanyeknowsbest
Vote: VitaminR

[Feysal]

I was already on kanye, Feysal.
Else I would have voted him.

I know. Herodotus, Wraith, ooba and MoI were not, and their votes would have been just enough.

[Feysal]

Feysal, target?

Wraith.

Whoever asked for my kill flavor, you have your answer. Apparently it is not exclusive to me though, as I had nothing to do with Chronopie's death.

I might as well confirm it now, Brandir was also on my list, as you might have guessed from the flavor. Now only two remain.

[Feysal]

Yeah, no. There's too much not adding up here, bro. Why did you target Wraith out of the people on the lists, a person whom you had a town read on instead of shooting one of your scum suspects, trying to even the odds which would benefit you as well in the long run (since you claim that Glaurung = likely scum is one of your targets as well)? Did you see any breadcrumbs from Wraith pointing to him being Beleg?

I saw no breadcrumbs, and had no reason to expect Wraith would be Brandir. As for my read on him, I posted that read on day one, and some of those have changed. For Wraith, it was the conflict between posts #1334 and #1346 that made me choose Wraith. First not aiding in getting kanye lynched, then complaining that he was not lynched? That was enough to make my early town read on him null and void.

As for the death flavor and both of the deaths with that flavor being from my list, I realize it looks like I would have more information than I've shared. However, I don't. If I knew who Glaurung was, I'd have served him on a silver platter on day one to save myself and buy town credit.

Furthermore, him targeting someone who WANTED to die and thus wasting a kill is VERY WEIRD.
Faraday would like an explanation for this, Feysal_SK.*

*Preferably in a short post. He has not the patience to read long posts.

My answer, in one word, is survival.

I don't need to personally kill any of my targets. I only need to outlive them. That is why on day one I was trying to turn my game around with a scum lynch, and when PeregrineV flipped town, targeting Furcolow like he wished seemed like the pro-town thing to do. I certainly thought it would be more beneficial to my survival than starting a killing spree, particularly when I had no leads. My long-term plan was pretty much to stay alive and let lynches and scum night kills do my work for me.

Anyway, this discussion seems now moot, at least for today, because of MoI's claim.

Also very clearly this is why I wanted Feysal to die since I am very likely one of his targets. If I die via NK and he doesn't go with me please hang him the next day, regardless of what he says.

MoI, if there's anything else you want to say, now would be the right time. I don't trust Feysal now that you've claimed and if you're indeed his second to last target. It gives him leeway to kill you and then come in tomorrow "Well, guys, now it's only Glaurung left, so you can bet your asses I'ma help town from now on!"

Feysal, if you truly want to work with the town to accomplish your win condition without having us kill you first, please leave MoI alive until you have found and killed your fourth target (you have gotten 2 of 4 so far, right?). If you kill MoI before eliminating your other target, I swear to god I will hunt you down and lynch you before you get the chance to win.

Okay, I already wrote a response to these saying I understood MoI was off limits without you saying so, then I read further and the counterclaim from Sun and Moon made it irrelevant. As things stand, assuming we don't lynch either Sun and Moon or MoI, if MoI does not die at the end of the day he should be fair game.

I also have one more scum suspect in mind, so whatever happens, I should have an easy choice who to target tonight.

I don't know what to think right now. S&M have just claimed to be a vig who has no way of proving they have the power to kill, since they claimed Feysal's N1 target and a guy who didn't die N2. There are a lot of ways for that to happen, but it doesn't make me feel any better about their claim. Ooba backing it up helps somewhat, except that S&M could have just lied to Ooba about being a vig.

Amrun is obviously out of touch with the game, and mixed up some things. On N1, I targeted Furcolow aka Mîm. Not Chronopie aka Beleg the town doctor, although I did consider it, apparently for the exact same reason Amrun did. On N2, I killed Wraith aka Brandir the town weak doctor/one-shot doctor-cop, which Furcolow was apparently referring to. Therefore Chronopie's death is apparently evidence of Sun and Moon being a vigilante.

[Feysal]

I've been thinking about this counterclaim situation, and while I must concede MoI has some points, I don't feel they are quite good enough. Sun and Moon have two solid points to their defense, one being the mason claim which ooba confirmed, the other the seraph confirmation that he is Túrin. And that seems indisputable. Consider that both Andrius and MoI reported that AGM had claimed scum seraph, leaving Faramina as the town seraph, meaning their word is beyond question. Include the fact that Sun and Moon

first

claimed Túrin, and the confirmation from Faramina, via Andrius, came

second

. I consider it extremely unlikely the scum could have faked that.

I have wondered about whether the seraph information is reliable though. In the flavor, Húrin was given the ability to see through Morgoth's own eyes, and that sight was maliciously twisted to torture him. Even after he was released by Morgoth years later he did not escape his thralldom until queen Melian released him from Morgoth's bewitchment. It would not surprise me if some of the seraph abilities did not work as described, some measure of role insanity may be involved. But the whole point of giving Húrin his sight was to torture him by making him watch the misery of his people and his family in particular, so it would make no sense if he could not recognize them. I see no reason to doubt this piece of information from Faramina, if indeed that is where it came from. I do have a slight concern that it was reported only by one player.

There is also something else to consider here. There has been talk of whether Sun and Moon or MoI would be more useful to the town, and without a doubt the answer is MoI. But for how long? MoI is a claimed cop. We have two dead protective roles, making it highly unlikely there are any more. Quite frankly, it would surprise me greatly if MoI survived the night if he survived the day. Therefore, I think trying to save MoI by lynching Sun and Moon is most likely futile.

What alternatives are there? Empking of course, and I also have another scum suspect in mind I'm thinking of killing tonight. I'm not mentioning the name because I want to keep it a surprise to the scum, but we could consider lynching that player too.

[Feysal]

Is it three days already since my last post? With the slow rate of posting I thought it was less.

Again, this is not the case.

Actually it is. Whether they are alignment confirmed masons was up to debate though, and it seems the answer is no.

Oh, so your theory is to not lynch scum (Sun and Moon) because it would likely still mean I die (even though you have no idea what other powers or ways the Mafia kill might be thwarted) and instead don't lynch them and guarantee I die. Nice logic.

Not at all. My theory is that Sun and Moon is town, and that lynching another town player to try and save you is futile. And frankly, my faith in you is waning rapidly, and I'm thinking that not lynching Sun and Moon would expose you as a liar.

If he doesn't he hangs. Problem solved.

Aside from the problem that directing me to kill one specific player would make it easy for scum to either take advantage of my kill or mess with it, depending on Empking's alignment, I'm not about to succumb to being ordered around by someone whose alignment I have increasing doubts about. If Sun and Moon is lynched and flips scum, that would be different, but I don't think that is going to happen.

So, the facts remain unchanged. Sun and Moon is still seraph confirmed as Túrin, and there is no way to dispute that except to accuse Andrius of lying, and since Faramina could probably find some means to communicate it if he was lying, I doubt that is the case. Túrin being the hero of the book, I can't see him being scum, but I can easily see him as a miller. Túrin is a classic example of a tragic hero, who is followed by misfortune whereever he goes. Túrin himself was aware of this. "Are there then any left who will suffer me to darken their doors?" he said upon being welcomed by the men of Brethil. Túrin purposely did not seek his family in Doriath to prevent his doom from touching them, of course without success.

The one thing about the mason claims I have trouble believing is Túrin and Nienor being aware of each other, which goes against a core concept of the book. I have been speculating on some ideas that might explain this, and it occurs to me that MoI may be accusing the wrong mason. I will explain.

Andrius has no role. He has speculated that he would be Nienor, who was bewitched by Glaurung and lost her memory. She only regained it when Glaurung died, and realizing she had married her own brother she took her own life. What could be the mafia significance of this? If Andrius was Nienor and would only receive his role after Glaurung died, that would make Nienor a perfect false claim to be used by Glaurung. Which would mean that ooba/Magister Ludi was Glaurung. Looking at their behavior, I think it at least possible they could be white knighting Sun and Moon. It certainly makes more sense than both of them being scum.

That is not the hidden suspect I have been hinting at though, for now that is only speculation based on mostly flavor, and I had too strong a town read on ooba to pursue this. I think I'm ready to share the suspect I have been thinking about.

Espeonage.

1) What ooba said in #1275. #1325 is also a possible connection to MoI, and my suspicion of him has been rising due to his posts today.

2) What Gandalf said in #1390. He wanted Espeonage to be kept alive for three days, for reasons not related to his alignment. This was the reason I ruled out killing Espeonage that night, since I was curious where Gandalf was going with this. When Gandalf flipped as Aerin, it occurred to me that he might have been linked to Espeonage. In the book, Aerin was a kinswoman of Húrin who was taken as wife by Brodda, a chieftain of the easterlings who enslaved Húrin's people. After Brodda and his household were slain by Túrin, Aerin burned the house and committed suicide to escape from the revenge of the easterlings. I had the theory that Espeonage is Brodda, Gandalf knew it, and he wanted Espeonage to live so he could make use of his own power role before Espeonage died, and Gandalf died with him.

3) What Sun and Moon said in #1477. They tried to kill Espeonage and failed. How can that be? Wraith had a scum read on Espeonage, as a weak doctor he would never have protected him, and Chronopie was already dead. Unless someone blocked Sun and Moon, them being town would make Espeonage practically confirmed scum. And not only that, but scum who has already survived an attempted vig kill, which is why I decided to share this.

My conclusion is that Espeonage is very probably scum, and his role is possibly Brodda. Since he was not a very significant character I'd guess Brodda was a mafia goon, and I would not tell a linked town player of a scum power role's identity, if indeed Gandalf and Espeonage were linked.

I'm not sure why Faramina wants Empking dead, but as far as I know, no cop guilty has ever been reported on Empking by Andrius. At this time I'm far more confident of Espeonage being scum than Empking.

Vote: Espeonage

Let's see if this gets people talking some more...

[Feysal]

Continue to ignore the facts.

I could respond to this with "NO U" but that would lead us nowhere.

There is only one indisputable fact in this discussion, and that is Sun and Moon being Túrin. Even if we ignore the likelihood of whether or not Túrin could be a scum role, this fact alone makes your claim suspect, since you claimed the same character. Unless there are two Túrins, and I can't see how there could be, you must be lying. And I have noted how you keep bringing up Sun and Moon's substandard play and focusing on them not being alignment confirmed masons, while I can't recall you addressing the name counterclaim.

They are clearly not alignment confirmed Masons.

Yeah, I said so, did I not? Nevertheless, even without alignment confirmation, them being masons means Magister Ludi can speak on Sun and Moon's behalf. For one thing, I think it is significant that Sun and Moon claimed being millerized before you revealed your result.

The fact that you are more focused on flavor (um, why Nienor and Turin know each other) and not actual scum behaviors in a Bastard game is clearly Anti-Town. Not that expect a Non-Town player to actually think from a Town perspective. It is one of the reasons I wanted you dead yesterday.

Now you are starting to sound condescending. Yes, I think about flavor. I think about many things, from many angles, and I believe that is far more pro-town than stubborn tunneling. Sometimes people just play badly, despite not being scum. In this case, I think that the seraph confirmation of Sun and Moon's role is more important than their behavior.

I also note that your refuse to vote either the Cop Guilty or hypo-Seraph guilty and want to free-lance with your vote.

If it was not obvious yet, I believe that Sun and Moon is the miller they claim to be, making your result on them irrelevant. The name counterclaim also makes your alignment suspect, as does the way you've been bullying people to vote Sun and Moon while responding to most counterarguments with scum accusations. That is why I am not voting Sun and Moon.

As I said, there has never been mention from Andrius that Faramina would have an actual cop guilty on Empking. My growing mistrust of you combined with your strong support for Empking to be killed also makes me think it is a bad idea. That is why I am not voting Empking.

My own case on Espeonage though? I think it is solid, and I think it is correct. That is why I am voting Espeonage. There are still six days left, and with any luck I might convince others to join me.

In fact, I would like to hear what Faramina has to say about this. Do they think that Espeonage is any better or worse a suspect than Empking?

[Feysal]

Feysal, that theory is all good and well, but why are you not helping us lynch the Seraph-confirmed scumbag Empking?

Andrius already posted the seraph clarification that they did not have a confirmed scum read on Empking. I suspected that might be the case, and I was more confident in Espeonage being scum.

Quoting this because Feysal forgot(?) to answer.

I suppose I did. However, it was asked before, and I answered in post #1063. My kill flavor is not specified, and I did not know what it would be until I killed Wraith.

1. Feysal: Does your wincon/PM have any information that would lead you to believe that the existence of two Turins is possible?

I can't say it would be conclusive either way. However, there is no mention of the cognomen Turambar, only Túrin.

For people saying MoI is scum, why? Because I've considered this situation a lot and have basically discarded the idea he could be scum based on timing etc.

I was thinking about the third scenario you mentioned, where ooba/Magister Ludi would be scum with MoI and would have informed him of Sun and Moon having become a miller. But as I said, my town read on ooba was too strong for that, and besides, I can't think of a credible reason for scum MoI to have outed himself with a name claim that would be counterclaimed. So yeah, this mess is confusing me too.

What Andrius is saying sounds like we can't expect further help regarding MoI's identity. This starts to sound like some sort of reverse name cop ability, where you start with knowledge of a role and can find out who has that role. Maybe it can still be used to confirm Morwen, Húrin's wife, but now is not the time anyway.

[Feysal]

I'm mostly prod-dodging with this post, having a busy Halloween weekend here. smargaret is indeed at L-1, which means I will do this to be on the safe side.

Unvote: smargaret

I will revote when we are ready to end the day. We should wait for Andrius to give the go ahead, and before that there are some things to discuss, such as vig targets.

[Feysal]

Ok, since no one is commenting, I'll take charge here. Feysal, I would like you to shoot Dekes. Confirm you have read this and that that is where your shot is going.

Confirmed. Dekes it is then. This may give the scum opportunity to interfere, but that is something better discussed once we see the results. And knowing where my attack goes should help Amrun in deciding hers.

smargaret has more than enough votes to lynch, but I'm putting my vote back anyway for good measure.

Vote: smargaret

[Feysal]

Mina thinks WoW saved S&M from Feysal last night.

Nope.

I killed Will-o-wisp. I actually targeted Will-o-wisp, so I don't think the bodyguard power did anything.

I can already see the expected reaction from some players. Why would I not kill either claimed Túrin when everyone expected me to? That is exactly why, because everyone expected me to. Last night I would have bet money that the scum were counting on me killing Túrin for them, and the temptation of letting them down and killing someone suspicious was too great. Purposely going against the town by killing Amrun simply did not appeal to me. Sadly I was wrong about Will-o-wisp, if they had been scum I would have been thrilled.

From my point of view, based on the death flavor, SpyreX was targeted by Amrun and scum both, and the other kill was mine.

Flavor people what kind of flavor is there on Glaurung recruiting?

I can't recall any true recruiting, but Glaurung did put spells on both Túrin and Nienor, driving them to act against their own interests.

[Feysal]

I don't see why we're suffering confirmed scum to live who did not play to his supposed wincon that we specifically left him alive to fulfill and get him out of our way, instead killing a town protective role.

Would you prefer that I had killed or tried to kill a town vigilante instead, which is what I believe Amrun is?

Feysal, why didn't you kill Dekes like town asked?

This is why. I never explained it in thread, but Dekes accidentally posting his reads was the very reason why I gave him a town read on day one. Yes, it could have been faked, but it was still cause to doubt whether Dekes was scum. I decided to look at other suspects and chose Will-o-wisp out of them. I don't regret that choice either, only that I missed scum.

[Feysal]

So it has come to this. I am to be lynched to reduce the number of nightly deaths, since the town has no reason to expect I would try to target scum, and can no longer afford to leave me alive. I can understand this, and I'm cool with it. I have long foreseen this moment would come.

What I'm not cool with are the accusations that I would purposely have played against the town. I can forgive that though, since I have given you no logical reason to believe that I have been trying to target scum, particularly that I targeted Will-o-wisp last night. I would certainly be suspicious myself were I in your position, it simply makes more sense to believe that I tried to achieve my claimed win condition and was prevented by a bodyguard. However, I insist that I have told the truth about my action last night, and that there is a scenario where that makes sense. Explaining this may be against the spirit of the game, and I apologize to Plum for doing this, but my prediction has proved correct.

I want it known that the below is the true account of my actions and motivations in this game, whether I live the day or not.

Doesn't make sense. If Feysal was a full Serial Killer looking to survive long term he would not have claimed his "limited target list" that by Day 3 ended up having all but one name off it. And he certainly wouldn't have gone back on his "I'll shoot Dekes" statement Day 3 if he was a full Serial Killer. Nothing to gain by saying "I think Dekes is Town" and looking to kill anyone else when a bad flip (in this case WoW) screws him immediately.

Again – the most logical conclusion is that Feysal claimed his actual Wincon and took a flier seeing so many dead Protection roles that he could win and escape today.

Your logic is sound, but your conclusion is still wrong. This is because the premise you base your reasoning on is incorrect.

You assume that if I were a full serial killer, I would have any hope of winning and act accordingly. You assume I would be trying to win.

Think about the circumstances in which my claim was made. MoI had just issued the seraph demand that I claim my role, alignment and action. I could not know what that demand was based on. I could not know how much they knew, or what I could get away with. Furcolow revealing that I was not a town vigilante was even worse. This meant that the range of claims I could make was extremely limited. It is pointless to analyze my choice of claim when there was in fact very little choice involved.

What could a full serial killer hope to achieve by that claim? I did not expect it to keep me alive for more than a couple days, which it has. I never expected it to keep me alive long term. There was no claim available to me that would. The snowball in hell that was my win condition skipped melting and evaporated the moment Furcolow outed me, and I knew it.

The important question you need to ask is what would a third party player do if they deemed their win condition impossible to achieve? My answer is I would do whatever I want. I have no partners whose chances of victory I could ruin. For me, being third party is freedom. So what did I want to do? I wanted to keep playing. I wanted to kill scum. I wanted to enjoy the game, never mind that I could not win.

It is from this viewpoint that my actions make sense. I listened to town input, but I made my own choices who I wanted to kill. Since I did not expect to win, the threat of lynch if I did not comply meant nothing to me. But that was fine, since I wanted to kill scum

anyway

. There was also a remote chance that if I was successful in targeting scum, the town could neglect to lynch me in time. That made it worthwhile to take risks.

There was also the fact that due to my claim, both town and scum had incorrect expectations on who I was trying to kill. This came into play last night. Contrary to what you think, I did plan on killing Dekes as the day was about to end. What changed everything was the flip. The only reason this town had to keep me alive was the belief that I would need to kill Glaurung to win. In fact, the only remote chance I had of winning depended on killing scum other than Glaurung. Once Glaurung was dead, I knew my game was up. No matter who I tried to kill, I expected to be lynched. My only choice seemed to be whether to hurt or try to help the town on my way out. That was when it occurred to me that the scum would be expecting me to kill Amrun or MoI for them. I could protect them simply by letting the scum believe that and then not do it. Instead I could target whoever I suspected most. If I would be lynched regardless, why the hell not? Never mind Dekes, I thought he was more likely town anyway. And maybe, just maybe, if I did succeed in killing scum, the town might be shocked enough not to lynch me.

The rest you know. I chose Will-o-wisp, and I was disappointed to learn that not only were they town, but a bodyguard. I had hoped to surprise town and scum alike by killing scum with my final action instead of the town I was expected to, and then the bodyguard flip had the result that barely anyone even believed I had not tried to kill Amrun or MoI. So much for my graceful exit.

There you have it. If it is not obvious from the story above, I have not told the truth about my win condition. I am in fact a full serial killer. I win if everyone else dies. I have no special reason to kill any of the roles I claimed to have on my list, since no such list actually exists. This last night I enjoyed the thought that scum were expecting me to kill town for them, when I had no reason to. I did try to kill scum, little good though it did.

Now - time for you to consider whether I would have any hidden motivation in revealing this. There is one obvious one I can point out to you myself. If I could convince you that I was a serial killer, and that I was trying to kill scum simply for my own amusement, you could leave me alive for one night to do so. If the above was the lie and the list I claimed was the truth, I could try killing Amrun. As such, do I expect you to believe me? Hell no. I think it would be cool if you made use of my kill for one last time and lynched me tomorrow, but I have no reason to expect you to do that.

Do as you will. If you want to take the risk of trusting me for one more night, I would be pleased to leave the game with at least one scum kill under my belt. Or, if there is anything you would like me to clarify further, or something else you would want to know, ask your questions while I'm here to answer them.

[Feysal]

How did you know the names of so many people confirmed to be in the game, though?

Part of it was flavor knowledge, part lucky guess. Túrin, Beleg and Glaurung are central characters in the book, and I could not imagine them not being in the game. Brandir I was less certain about, if any of the four proved to be a scum false claim, I thought it would be him. This was why I hesitated to claim who exactly was on my list, and did not confirm Brandir until he was dead.

Feysal, I want to know two things in particular, the first being your exact linkage towards Furcolow and the second being a list of your reads. You claim that you will be able to successfully target and kill scum tonight therefore I'm assuming you've continued following this game and attaining reads.

For Furcolow, the honest answer is I don't know if any link exists. I targeted him for kill on night one like I said, and I failed to kill him. This is all I know beyond any doubt.

If you care to hear my theories, my guess that he could share my win condition was an honest one. In fact, my worst fear when Furcolow claimed to have had his win condition altered was that you would think I was an inquisitor. If indeed he has become my partner, I was never informed, and I have to say that I have never seen a dumber move than him outing me.

As for my reads, I will have to keep you waiting as I sort them out. The very fact that I find myself in this position is because I could not identify and kill scum to save my own life. I have no guarantee of being able to target scum now, though I remain capable of killing a suspect.

To give one name, I was thinking of simply killing Mastermind of Sin. I had a look at his games recently, and his stance toward GreyICE in Mafiascum Fantasy Camp for claiming a third party role closely resembles his play toward my slot here.

[Feysal]

I see the day is progressing as expected. I of course have little reason to say anything by this point, but since I was prodded I should. Besides, I do feel like I should respond to some of these posts for personal reasons.

That's so stupid I can't even believe you bothered.

Your explantion makes absolutely no sense.

You wanted a scum kill? Should have made one while you had the chance.

I believe I have figured out why I have a problem with your play so often. You have no imagination.

I have repeatedly accused you of relying on generic tells, which you apply rigidly to every player and every situation. Whenever you see someone doing something strange and unexpected, your response is to call them scum. You like to refer to what town and scum tend to do according to your experience, but you do not recognize your experience having limits and make no effort to understand things outside it. People have different approaches and playstyles, which you ignore in favor of your established policies. Case in point, you spent all of yesterday trying to get Amrun lynched and refused to be persuaded otherwise. I did not agree with you, instead I looked for scum elsewhere and

started the wagon on Glaurung

. Makes me wonder how you reconcile that with your belief that I would need Amrun to die.

My play makes perfect sense to me, even if you cannot see it. You apparently cannot imagine someone recognizing their win condition as a lost cause, and that this could drive them to seek an alternate motivation to play. That is how I have played, and I have no regrets.

You say that this game would prove that third party roles never help town. In fact it will prove the opposite. I may not have been successful, but both of my shots were aimed at scum. You say that I am appealing for one more day? If I am, it is not for my own sake, as I have lost either way. You say I should have killed scum while I had the chance...? If that is so easy, why don't you find one actual scum yourself instead of third party.

Given apparently we are completely out of contact with them I suggest we lynch Feysal after 72 hours from this post. That guarentees that Minaday gets one more action but doesn’t extend the day needlessly.

If there is one thing I should thank you for, it is for giving me an exact time when I am to be lynched. I will be sure to be here to provide my final thoughts. Oh yes, I do think there will be something for me to share.

I'd not like him to be able to self-hammer if scum want to stick their necks out and get him there to interfere with this plan.

Me, self-hammer? Why, to troll the town with my last action alive?

This post settles it. MoI,

you do not know me at all

.

Oh I said I would comment on Feysal. I believe he has to say whatever he thinks will keep him alive until he can shoot Turin tonight, so the SK claim is probably a lie. But even if it isn't, lynching an SK is okay.

I would like to say that I am quite amused by this - I am to be lynched because you believe my serial killer claim is false. I wonder how many players can claim to have experienced the same?

More seriously, why do you think that lynching me would be okay even if I was a serial killer? In that case, you should recognize that I have given up, and at least consider my offer. If genuine, it could result in town gain.

[Feysal]

I've already acknowledged that Amrun did suspect MoI mostly through survival and remove Feysal's suspicion due to him being a claimed third party.

This is something I have heard before, yet I cannot understand it. Why would me being third party make my suspicions irrelevant? I can understand how I would as a

specific

third party claim suspicions that furthered my own goals, like if I was a lyncher trying to have my target killed, or a jester trying to cause havoc. Perhaps you have reason to ignore my suspicions because you believe still that I would need either Amrun or MoI to die before me, but you don't have a reason to distrust third parties in general.

Think about what my motivation would be as a serial killer. I would need everyone to die, so it would not matter to me in the least who died. Any and all deaths would serve my win condition. However, I would still need to survive, and trying to genuinely scumhunt would aid me in that, not to mention I'm inclined to do that anyway. You will have proof of my role soon enough, and when you do, you will not be able to dismiss my suspicions so easily. I don't claim to understand why MoI would false claim Túrin as scum, only to be counterclaimed, but that claim is still far from confirmed. Also, the fact that many people seem to trust MoI means nothing to me, as I have seen him establish trust as scum in every game I've played with him.

There is something else I have to say on this, but I'll save that for my final thoughts post.

That'll be my last wall in a while, promise. I'm going to take roughly 24 hours of but I'll state a summarization of my thoughts before a lynch occurs and I'm really hoping someone can get hold of Faraday for him to post his reads before then as well.

The time when MoI called for my lynch is now, so you may not have those 24 hours.

Given apparently we are completely out of contact with them I suggest we lynch Feysal after 72 hours from this post.

The 72 hours are now up, and I'm here, typing out some final thoughts to share. Where is everyone else? Am I to be lynched, or am I not?

[Feysal]

So I have been hammered. Good thing I checked the thread, I wanted to post that final thoughts post I've been promising.

First of all, I

am

a serial killer. I don't have, and never did have, reason to specifically kill either Amrun or MoI. Last night I killed Will-o-wisp, who I considered more likely to be scum than Dekes, and I believed only a scum kill had any chance of helping me live. Him turning up a bodyguard was a freak accident which made you all suspicious, and rightly so, I admit that. This time though it was just a coincidence. Even then I saw the chance to use the situation to town advantage, by using the WIFOM about my true win condition to protect both Amrun and MoI, but only kanye and Gut even considered letting me live for one more night. MoI demanded that I be lynched to ensure that at least one of him and Amrun survives the night, while in fact if the scum counted on me killing one of you for them you could both have lived. Ironically, by lynching me one of you claimed Túrins has effectively committed suicide. Thrown yourselves upon your own sword as it were. Talk about fitting.

There is also a piece of information I have been saving, since revealing it would have made my lynch even more certain than it already was. Now I have no more reason to, so it is time. I may not have proof of certain roles being town aligned, but I have something else. I possess evidence that Amrun told the truth about how and why she was millerized, which gives additional insight into MoI's alignment as well.

It has become clear to me that there is a kind of symmetry between myself and Amrun. Both of us have the same kill flavor, so clearly our kills were intended to be mixed up. Amrun is compulsive, and so am I, if you did not guess that already. Amrun claimed to be descending, which causes her to receive penalties for town kills, and I am ascending. I have received boons for any successful kills. I first gained a one-shot night kill immunity which then became permanent. You may think I was hoping to gain something from my kill tonight to help me survive tomorrow, and I was curious about what I would receive, but what I needed to win this was lynch immunity, and common sense says I was not going to get that.

That is no longer important anyway. What is important for you is what this tells you about Amrun and MoI. The moment Amrun claimed to be descending, I knew she was telling the truth about how and why she was millerized. If anyone had any doubt at this stage, she is confirmed town now. As for MoI, until I knew how Amrun became a miller there was the possibility that MoI or a hypothetical scum partner had millerized Amrun, and he was false claiming an investigation to push a mislynch. That possibility has been ruled out now. If MoI was scum, then the scum would need to possess some means of finding out that Amrun was a miller, and we don't know of any. That makes MoI more likely to be town, even if the dual Túrin claims continue to weird me out.

By the way, since I received boons from kills, I also received explicit confirmation about what happened with my kills. That is why I know none of them were redirected. My kill of Furcolow failed, and my kills of Wraith and Will-o-wisp were successful as targeted. I don't know whether this information will help you, but there you have it.

With that, I'm running out of things to say here. Most of my reads on surviving players are confused at this point, and I have not taken the effort to sort them out since I was about to die anyway. I have other games to focus my attention on.

I am Gurthang, Compulsive Ascending Serial Killer.

Goodbye, and good luck.

"Then he drew forth his sword, and said: 'Hail Gurthang, iron of death, you alone now remain! But what lord or loyalty do you know, save the hand that wields you? From no blood will you shrink. Will you take Túrin Turambar? Will you slay me swiftly?'

And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yes, I will drink your blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay you swiftly.'

Then Túrin set the hilts upon the ground, and cast himself upon the point of Gurthang, and the black blade took his life.

But Mablung came and looked on the hideous shape of Glaurung lying dead, and he looked upon Túrin and was grieved, thinking of Húrin as he had seen him in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and the dreadful doom of his kin. As the Elves stood there, men came down from Nen Girith to look upon the Dragon, and when they saw to what end the life of Túrin Turambar had come they wept; and the Elves learning at last the reason of Túrin's words to them were aghast. Then Mablung said bitterly: 'I also have been meshed in the doom of the Children of Húrin, and thus with words have slain one that I loved.'

Then they lifted up Túrin, and saw that his sword was broken asunder. So passed all that he possessed."