Mini 617 - Scottish Mafia, Game Over

[Lowell]

vote rofl

for being early.

[Lowell]

unvote, vote coheed

[Lowell]

Holy bejesus, there's two people without an avatar? If I was the third guy on your team I'd be really pissed at the both of you for giving away yourselves this early.

How do you know how many players is on a team?

I'm also curious.

unvote, vote erratus

[Lowell]

kuribo- is there a reason you don't put your vote where your mouth is?

[Lowell]

kuribo- is there a reason you don't put your vote where your mouth is?

Probably because I don't feel three pages of discussion is enough to warrant putting 5 votes on EA just yet?

Although I see roflcoptor disagrees.

I've seen more than a few games get stalled in inanities because people say "oh, it's too soon to...". I don't think a relatively quick pace is a bad thing, as it makes it easier to retain original members and keep everyone engaged.

[Lowell]

You've been making these two points against me all day: One, that all people who assume three scum are always scum, and two, that I assumed three scum. How in the hell can you claim those two points to be true without also concluding that I am 100% scum? What other possible conclusion can you derive from those two points?

Stop being intentionally dense.

And to any townie giving so much as a modicum of serious thought to the "anger = scumtell" non-logic, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY MAFIA. Of god damn course I'm upset at the prospect of my lynch! My lynch decreases my chances of winning, re****inggardless of my role!

Yes, but scum are likely to get pissy if they get caught for reasons they think are stupid. And sometimes those reasons

are

stupid. I know, I've done it.

Agree 100% with bolded part.

[Lowell]

"I have no counter-argument so I quit" is one of my biggest pet peeves on this site.

I very much agree.

And to answer whoever's question it was: it's a scumtell. He's scum, got caught for a "bad" reason, and now wants to quit and go home so he doesn't feel like a loser.

Let's get our lynch on, save the replacement for someone who'll remain alive.

[Lowell]

^^^^ smart

We need one more, I think.

[Lowell]

^^^^^ also smart.

[Lowell]

Well he's at L-1 so maybe someone can replace in and claim

= torture. Someone kill already.

[Lowell]

I know, is there anyway the mod can claim for him, or get him to come back just to claim?

I wanted to note this before but missed the window.

This is an awful, awful post. That said, CC09 is almost certainly town because of it.

vote empking

. Anyone who wasn't on this wagon has some explaining to do.

Also, rofl is most certainly town.

[Lowell]

q21 has impressed me more than empking D2, I'm sticking with empking as the likely scum. I'm also not ruling out the "dcorbe bussing" theory q21 brings up.

To answer someone's question, I have C09 pegged as town because his post about the mod claiming for EA is just... TOO naive... he's clearly someone who doesn't understand how the game works (which is fine, I don't mean to needlessly bash him here), and particularly how CLAIMS work. While a newbie could be scum or town, I think a newbie scum wouldn't have said something like that, KNOWING that he was referring to his scumpartner.

[Lowell]

unvote

. Yeah, I guess emp could be cop. Whatever. I'll be back with ideas later.

[Lowell]

I also would like to hear more about the q21 case.

[Lowell]

This defense is weak, and I'm in a pro-roflcopter mood right now.

vote q21

[Lowell]

The fact that you're still trying to justify the dcorbe vote, even now. I guess it's possible he's scum somehow, but to pretend that it's still likely or reasonable to accuse him over the myriad other choices is dumb. You're trying to not back down because you think it makes you look strong in your convictions and innocent. The opposite is true.

[Lowell]

I'm growing suspicious of cephir and kuribo.

cephir for the reasons rofl brings up, particularly in 280. kuribo mostly because of his behavior of late. He posts a lot about... basically nothing. Alarming.

[Lowell]

Which I do consider a point to your credit, in fairness. I'm also not one of the people that automatically assumes the opposite of what I see.

[Lowell]

Haha I love when scum whine that they were caught for stupid reasons.

Whatever helps you sleep better.

unvote, vote kuribo

[Lowell]

He's scum. Quit your whining, cephir.

[Lowell]

If mod's post referred to not sending a result to emp, then he's cop. If we're dealing w/ mafia roleblocker and he blocked emp instead of kill, then he's town. So, either way, I feel safe with him being alive.

vote q21

. Who cares about a mafia godfather? Someone who plans to plant the seeds of doubt in all investigations.

[Lowell]

First of all I don't believe its a mafia roleblocker. I believe Emp is the cop and Mod's comments were an indication that she forgot to send emp his result.

The fact that a player keeps trying to push the godfather idea is an unsettling one. It means someone doesn't want us to take future cop investigations at face value.

[Lowell]

Because he died??? Isn't that a reason?

[Lowell]

No, like you, I heard it from the mod. Any real questions?

[Lowell]

Well he hasn't posted as much recently, but yes.

All talk about a "godfather" does is plant the seed of "we can't necessarily trust cop investigations." He looks like someone who is worried the field will close around him and wants to be able to plausibly throw accusations at anyone and everyone he chooses.

[Lowell]

1) The cop may not be 100% reliable, but it's pointless to discuss alternatives. If he's not we'll deal with it later. Trying to frame the cop as ineffective, however, IS a problem, as it makes it increasingly likely he'll be vulnerable.

2) I don't care if there's a mafia roleblocker. I said I tend to believe there isn't one (if for no other reason than because I can't remember the last mini I played that had one), and that the mod just made a mistake in not reporting to the cop or the mod's policy is not to report on people who have died. We'll probably know by tomorrow either way.

[Lowell]

Just reread your post Lowell, you said probably, not certainly. My bad, but still - what more are we likely to know by tomorrow?

Do you really want me to discuss potential scum strategy in the thread?

[Lowell]

^^^^ agree wholeheartedly with 440. Except the last part.

[Lowell]

Will be around Monday. No one kill me until I can get my final thoughts out there.

[Lowell]

A VERY BRIEF summary, highlighting some things, particularly circa lynches

38- dcorbe votes erratus
45- kuribo points out "3 person team" slip
47- Lowell also curious, votes erratus
54- massive votes erratus for same reason
57- cephir votes erratus
58- dcorbe continues push against erratus
59- erratus votes dcorbe
60- q21 votes dcorbe [scummy, only 40mins later]
66- dcorbe unvotes, votes q21
69- q21 wonders why dcorbe "ensured" erratus wagon would die down [very scummy]
73- cybele's post is EXACTLY right, but comes to wrong conclusion, votes dcorbe
76- emp votes dcorbe for abandoning erratus wagon
77- dcorbe 4 (cyb, erratus, q21, emp), erratus 4 (drool, Lowell, massive, cephir)
80- rofl votes erratus, 5th vote [good]
99- erratus comes unglued, asks for replacement
112- dcorbe wants to hear from replacement [scummy]
125- dcorbe votes erratus, 6th vote [good]
138- cybele hammers erratus
142- massive questions dcorbe's 112 to 125 switch [good]
144- Lowell votes emp, calls CC09 town
145- cephir votes emp
159- massive votes kuribo
189- emp 4 votes (lowell, cephir, rofl, kuribo)
195- cybele votes emp, 5th (L-1) vote
198- CC09 agrees with emp wagon
199- emp claims cop, dcorbe innocent
200s- emp and kuribo argue
247- rofl votes q21
257- kuribo votes q21
264- CC09 votes q21, q21 leads w/ 3 votes
269- Lowell votes q21, 4th vote
274- cephir calls q21 wagon "lame"
337- kuribo self-votes, claims scum
340- rofl votes kuribo
343- q21 votes kuribo
352- Lowell hammers
365- mirth (the new dcorbe) votes Lowell
375- q21 votes Lowell for being useless [scummy]
382- rofl votes q21
397- lowell votes q21
399- emp votes Lowell, says it's "between him and q21"
406- massive FOSs with intent to vote Lowell [scummy]
453- cyb votes Lowell, 4th (L-1) vote

Thoughts on each player:

CoheedCambria09

-

Town

. His bizairre desire to have the mod claim for erratus when he tried to quit makes me think he's not a scumbuddy. As well, near the end of D1 he professed his willingness to hammer erratus if it's what we all wanted. It's a slightly scummy thing to ask permission before hammering, and I think if he were doing it to bus a partner he would have wanted the townie points and would have just done it without prodding.

Cybele

-

slightly scummy

. He doesn't win a lot of points for hammering erratus, especially after CC09 said he would do it. It looks like bussing. I do like that he's been fairly assertive with his vote, however, putting L-1 votes on various players (emp and me), even though both of those votes are bad votes. I'm concerned how quickly he discards the q21 wagon.

Mirth (aka dcorbe)

-

town

. I'm taking emp at face value, so he's town. I don't think mirth has done anything useful, but dcorbe wins points for sniffing out the erratus slip on D1 and then pointing out the link between erratus and q21. Even without the cop's investigations I have this role as squarely pro-town.

Empking

- no counterclaim, fairly typical cop behavior:

town

massive

-

slightly scummy

. 406 just looks weird. He sees a quick wagon building on someone and instead of joining, says he "wants to join." He's trying to push the Lowell wagon without taking the blame for it. Also, he's hiding. And when

I

accuse someone of hiding, you know it's serious.

q21

-

SCUMMY

. Reading back, the early pages around the start of the erratus wagon are really damning. dcorbe started pushing the erratus wagon based on the "3 scum" slip. Erratus punched back, voting dcorbe, and then, 35 minutes later, q21 jumps on with a dcorbe vote for weakly fabricated reasons. I think he did this thinking the erratus fire would die down. Then he VERY suspiciously accuses dcorbe of abandoning the erratus wagon (a wagon he himself seemed until that moment to have no interest in). Post 69 is VERY scummy.

roflcopter

-

town

. He's seemed very pro-town, and pretty much seals it with post 80. He jumped into the fray when both dcorbe (probable town) and erratus (scum) both had 4 votes, and either wagon could have taken off. He made the correct vote and erratus ended up being lynched. This is exactly NOT a scenario when scum would bus.

As for

kuribo

- How did a guy who said this:

I have no counter-argument so I quit" is one of my biggest pet peeves on this site.

turn into a player who claimed scum just to get out of the game?

Read together, this quote with his actions at the end of D2 made the quote look like he was reprimanding a teammate and then got frustrated and did the same thing. To accuse someone of being hasty for killing a CLAIMED scum is idiotic.

[Lowell]

You're accusing dcorbe of destroying a wagon, despite there being many other people on it. If you cared about that wagon, YOU WOULD HAVE PURSUED IT. Instead you pursue someone else, avoid the wagon, and blame dcorbe for the whole thing.

[Lowell]

Vote; Lowell.

Glad my post convinced you.

Less dumbness, more reading and agreeing please.

[Lowell]

Well I didn't admit guilt and am therefore innocent. Can you unvote now?

[Lowell]

Because claiming is stupid and is only suggested so people can feel good about themselves for mislynches.

[Lowell]

Well I didn't admit guilt and am therefore innocent. Can you unvote now?

Was that a joke?

No.

Watch those who are waiting for this to end....

[Lowell]

It's stupid because it's just a lazy device for people to justify lynches. Run someone to L-1, get a claim, forget about them for awhile, repeat w/ someone else.

Was the second part of that supposed to be joke? If not, I have no idea what you're asking.

[Lowell]

emp, what's your hurry? You're driving me crazy with this. There are a lot of people unexamined because they can sit back and watch you do their dirty work for them.

[Lowell]

I'm saying I don't try to have it both ways, and you do. You're trying to position yourself as "for" the wagon, but not having to take credit when it goes down in flames.

[Lowell]

massive's question in 499 is a good one.

[Lowell]

no, its one of the many things taken into account, and he hasnt claimed so its hard to even take it into account.

This is such a lazy, sloppy answer. Grrrr.

You ever notice how I post my suspicions and you sit there doing nothing but waiting for a claim?

[Lowell]

I can see the CC09 case. My town vibe on him earlier may have been premature. My sentiments on CC09 follow massive's 508 nearly exactly.

unvote, vote CC09

.

[Lowell]

Soo, Lowell, is this just a way to try and get someone who isnt you lynched?

Coheed, why put off my questions for so long in the first place?

Well, yes, sort of.

However, since the new CC09 suspicion started, I looked back again at the original "asking mod to claim" incident. I read it originally as a newbie-town trying to get information out of the mod, assuming claims were necessary before lynches. Looking at it again, however, it could as easily be newbie-scum trying to get the mod to help save his teammate. If his mood was that of "oh, crap, teammate being lynched, he's not around, MOD, help us out lest he be lynched before he gets back" then his post makes sense.

[Lowell]

Then let's kill CC09 instead.

[Lowell]

^^^^

First off, I won't be "saved." Unless someone kills me tonight idiotically, I'm not going anywhere. Worry about me later.

What's been wrong with my wagon is that it has allowed others (see CC09 and massive) to get off scot-free without having to do anything. A step towards lynching (or at least pressuring) someone else is a step in the right direction.

[Lowell]

I don't have an opinion about cyb one way or the other, and rofl is awesome.

[Lowell]

I'm leaving town Thursday for 10 days. Just thought I should let everyone know. I'd like to keep playing upon my return.

[Lowell]

Mod:Prod Cyb please?

Lowell, if Rofl awesome because he agrees with you or because he's your scumbuddy?

Because he agrees with me. Whew, that was close, you almost got me there.

I just don't buy rofl as scum this game.

[Lowell]

If he almost got you there, you must be scum.

Cybele, I'd consider your rereading time a bit more than a moment.

Oh, my, you guys are clever.

I can't remember the last time I got into trouble for NOT suspecting someone to be scum.

[Lowell]

What's dumb about CC09s list is that it pretty much just ranks players (other than himself) most suspected by others.

Oh, yeah, I found internet for a bit. I'll try to find internet again later this week if I at all possible.

[Lowell]

Back from vacation, with a tan. Will post thoughts soon.

[Lowell]

Three things:

1) Almost certainly this is two mafia left, no SK
2) Massive is trying to set me up. This doesn't surprise me, as I've been absent a bit. I'm going to reread and tell you exactly why he's scum. But I'll give you a hint, it starts with "I don't want to lazily vote Lowell" = I want to vote Lowell but I want to justify it.
3) What is the problem with Emp? I'm starting to think this guy is scum, because his "power" is useless.

vote for massive almost certainly coming. Carry on.

[Lowell]

My preliminary guesses:

scum: massive, q21
town: rofl, emp

[Lowell]

Well, presumably we both think you're town.

So you're saying it's me and rofl?

[Lowell]

617 is a good post. Also you bring up an interesting idea. I've pretty much been giving rofl a pass this game, assuming very early on that he's town.

And here I am, 5 people left and still alive. Something for me to think about I guess...

[Lowell]

I'm a little confused by this.

If q21 thought dcorbe was bussing, and EA was scum, shouldn't he WANT to continue his attack the next day?

Or are you saying his accusing EA's accuser of bussing was too convenient and perhaps a ploy to have reason to attack him the following day?

[Lowell]

At this point I'd consider a mafia roleblocker much more likely. Basically, either Emp is scum or there's a mafia roleblocker. I tend to believe the latter, because I think a fake finder claim wouldn't then undermine himself by saying "no result" every night. If there's a roleblocker they're probably intentionally keeping him alive, knowing that he won't do anything useful and begging us to ask the "hey, why are you still alive if you're so powerful?" question.

I'm now leaning towards q21. I feel like I've been right about him all along. My new scumlist, assuming lynch or lose:

q21- 95% scum
massive- 50% scum
rofl- 50% scum
emp- 5% scum

massive has handled himself well, I think.

[Lowell]

vote q21

. No guts no glory. Someone has to do it.

Congrats scum if I'm wrong.

[Lowell]

^^^^^ makes me think I'm right

[Lowell]

Bah. Good game all. Well, no one said I was good at this game.

I thought scum played well. Enough with the passive-aggressive "we blew it" compliments. ROFL had me totally fooled until the field started closing in around me and he (and I) were both still alive. Massive did a great job talking his way out of trouble on the last day.

Emp and q21, sorry about the vote. In case you're curious, I felt a vote was warranted as I was pretty confident in my read on q21. Those situations usually come down to scum waiting for something dumb (see post 633), so I'd just as soon take my chances.