Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Goatrevolt]

I wanted to vote for the pope, but I'll have to settle with this instead.

Vote: The Pope's Tiara

[Goatrevolt]

Cass, I just realized you've been in every single game I've finished on this site. That's madness.

I think there's some confusion regarding Matin. I don't think he's saying that it would be scummy of him to put the 2nd vote on someone. I think he's joking around saying it was scummy for someone else to vote for his choice.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm not really following all this nonsense. It is joke voting, there can't be any argument built on that, although we pretty much have done that. I think by us talking about matters that are not relevant to this game will allow scum to respond way too easily as Townie.

Arguments based from joke voting is precisely how the game (generally) gets out of the random phase and into real discussion.

SO the topic will develop discussion, but I think thsi type of discussion has a scum slant to it. I support discussing, the more the better, even this irrelevant discussion has told me a little more about players.

How does this discussion have a scum slant to it? What kind of discussion is the type of discussion that doesn't have a scum slant?

Although alot of people have contributed to that topic, I

Fos: Jahudo

because he seems to be tryign to take it to the next level.

I don't understand this. You're FoSing Jahudo because he's trying to spark discussion?

[Goatrevolt]

Why are you trying to appear to gather information out of a series of irrelevant posts?

Why do you think those posts are irrelevant, because they are jokes? Meaningful stuff happens during the random phase, and people shouldn't be given a free pass to say whatever they want because it's the random phase.

Anyway,

Unvote

.

Right now I'm reading TPT's self-vote and sarcastic responses as townie frustration at a perceived unworthy bandwagon on him. The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

I feel like TPT is saying "You guys think you're so smart. We'll see how smart you really are when you lynch me and I'm town." That whole "prove you wrong" mentality is not a natural scum reaction, because nobody will actually be proven wrong.

[Goatrevolt]

Ecto: I haven't written him off yet. My read is that his response was a frustrated townie response, but I reserve the right to change my mind on him based on new information.

[Goatrevolt]

TPT, I have no clue what parts of that last post were serious and what parts were not. If you want to cut out the heavy sarcasm, be my guest, because it certainly is not helping at all.

Do you really know even close to enough to back up what you've said? Everything posted has pretty much just been built on speculation. An almost absurd amount of speculatory material is being used to make accusations.

Speculation on people's alignments based on behavior is the entire point of the game of mafia, so I really have no clue why you're acting like we're so stupid for doing it. If we don't sit around and use information in the thread to come to conclusions about people's alignment, then what should we be doing instead? Please enlighten us.

Besides it's early day 1. There's not a whole to go on. People are going to wagon each other off of weak tells, and get early pictures of who is town/scum based on weak tells.

[Goatrevolt]

Cass: Do you think it's acceptable to lynch townies under the guise of "they aren't helping" or do you legitimately think TPT is scum?

[Goatrevolt]

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

Ugh. This post contains my three least favorite words: "scumtell", "evidence", and "least-helpful"

You don't like evidence? That's gotta be some kind of a scumtell.

[Goatrevolt]

Habitang: Not everyone is going to comment on every single topic, and sometimes people ask specific players for their opinion on matters rather than everyone. I don't really see how it's scummy for someone to pose a question to 1 or 2 people to gauge their answers/reactions. I also find it interesting that you were the one earlier on who was so worried about scum directing the flow of discussion but yet you've been working so hard to push discussion in various directions yourself.

I also agree with the general sentiment that posts are getting way too long and it's tough to pick out the meaningful content from the chaff. Keep it succinct people.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm not really buying the case on Simenon. I'll check into him tomorrow myself, but a lot of the things Cass just brought against him aren't scum tells at all. In fact I don't think any of those points suggest to me in any way that Simenon is scum. Cass, I want you to show me specifically where he's been aggressive "in a scummy manner", overdefensive, and the slight-OMGUS. I also would like you to show me specifically why those specific points are scummy or suggestive of him being scum.

I feel that none of those 3 are reliable scum tells at all. Aggressiveness is pretty much a null tell by itself, and only becomes a town/scum tell based on the manner in which it's used. Overdefensiveness is probably the term I hate most in mafia, because I think it's almost useless in catching scum but I see it thrown around so often. How do you quantify when someone has been overdefensive, and do scum always defend themselves more than townies? As for slight-OMGUS, I find OMGUS to be a weak tell as well. Also it's only OMGUS if his reason for pushing you is simply because you attacked him.

[Goatrevolt]

With so many long posts and a lot of high noise/signal ratio (a lot of fairly meaningless points being discussed at length) I'm having a hard time picking out scum. I've been able to earmark a decent number of players as town thus far, but I'm hoping to be able to catch some idea of who is scum on a reread. I'm hoping to have a chance to do that tonight.

[Goatrevolt]

I've been moving in and out of apartments this past week, and have had a lot of stuff on my plate, so I apologize for not getting around to posting. Tomorrow is going to be crazy again as we have to move everything off the floor of our apartment so that they can change the carpets, and then move it all back, etc.

I'm hoping for a nice easy weekend though, and this is my top priority game to get a solid read through on.

[Goatrevolt]

Prod received, and I see a large number of votes piling on habitang. I am in the process of my reread now, and would very much appreciate if nobody lynches habitang before I have a chance to comment.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't think Nureins is scum. This is his second game of mafia. For him as a scum player to play so out in the open and hope overwhelm the town with tons of huge lengthy posts into thinking he's townie would be a tough feat to pull off. None of his posts read to me as superficial or fake at all. I simply feel he is a legitimate townie who may be a bit overzealous in what he feels necessary to address or discuss.

I really dislike the recent push on Habitang, and a lot of those votes seem all too opportunistic. After reading through the thread, my top 3 suspects were Andycyca, Ectomancer, and Jahudo. I was somewhat suspicious of Ythill, mainly because I thought his top two targets of Nureins and Habitang were soft, easy targets, but his hesitance to jump on the Habitang wagon here gives me better vibes about him.

Confirmed OMGUS attitude (antitown)

He admitted to having OMGUS tendencies. What possibly self-serving reason would scum have to admit something anti-town like this? This screams to me as additional weak justification to hop aboard the wagon. "Well, he said his initial reaction was to want to OMGUS, and since OMGUS is a scum tell, I'll add it to the case."

Vote Andycyca

I need to catch up in other games, but I can certainly provide reasoning for my top 3 targets later on.

[Goatrevolt]

I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.

Out of what?

[Goatrevolt]

My top 3 suspects are not necessarily those voting for habitang, which seems to be a point of confusion. Not everyone who voted (or FoSed) habitang was in my top 3, and my top 3 is not exclusive to only those on his wagon.

Jahudo's reaction was not a surprise based on habitang's pushing of him all game, but that doesn't make it justified.

[Goatrevolt]

I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.

Out of what?

The opportunistic club. I don't see why that necessarily has to refer to voting.

Look at the 3 people I listed again. I left out Nhat and you and you are both voting for habitang. That list was not a "who's currently voting for habitang list," which is why I'm still confused by your line of questioning. I agree with your general sentiment though, and I generally will count FoS' as similar to votes in situations such as this.

[Goatrevolt]

I understand the function of your list, but I was making a point myself: if you're going to nail somebody for opportunistic behavior (which I don't oppose), I would naturally go for the person who isn't committing to a vote.

I disagree with the idea that a FoS is more opportunistic than a vote. Both can be opportunistic, but a vote actually furthers along the wagon. I feel much more confident going for the person who threw on additional meaningless reasoning to justify their vote, especially since Andycyca was in my top 3 prior to the habitang vote anyway.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm not judging either town or scum reasons to admit OMGUSing. I just stated that OMGUS is never good for town. I don't FoS a lot and all I have is a vote. So, I see someone blatantly admiting an antitown attitude, I vote. End of story.

Isn't judging town or scum reasons for doing specific actions the entire basis behind how you determine who is scum or town? What's the scum motivation for admitting OMGUS tendencies, especially when it does precisely what it has done in this situation, which is draw unnecessary suspicion upon oneself.

[Goatrevolt]

Andycyca

I will say that his defense I quoted in the previous post is actually consistent with his behavior this entire game (attacked TPT for self-voting because it's anti-town. Attacked habitang for no lynch because it's anti-town). I disagree with the idea that committing a "known scum tell" is indicative that someone is scum, because the game then will often become "lynch the worst player" and scum who know how to avoid common "scum tell" pitfalls can skate by free. Regardless, though, his consistency in this matter actually gives me better vibes about him. I've still got him around 50/50 based on his "active lurking" tendency of posting occasionally but avoiding taking strong stances, but he's no longer top of my scum list.

Unvote Andycyca

Ectomancer

I find Ectomancer's entire on and off the TPT wagon to be interesting. He suggests that it was a joke, but jumps on the TPT wagon anyway, and then later unvotes in the same post that he says he would not read TPT as town from his actions. In other words he jumps on the wagon with the understanding that it's not strong, and then after I unvote the wagon, he hops back off, yet still keeps a healthy dose of suspicion on TPT. I don't understand why he unvoted here really if he's still suspicious of TPT.

The vote on Nureins I don't understand. You correctly assessed many of his actions, but why do they suggest that he's scum?

I'll admit there isn't a whole lot to pin on ectomancer in terms of blatantly scummy things he's done. I don't understand his votes on TPT or Nureins, so I'd appreciate an explanation there. I think the main reason I find him suspicious is that a lot of his posts are good logically and theoretically but don't actually add anything to the game in terms of finding scum. He stands out as a voice of reason (perhaps why nureins has buddied up), but I haven't seen him doing anything towards actively finding scum.

Jahudo

This would be my current top pick for scum. Post 77 caught my eye the most, as it sets off alarm bells for many different reasons.

First of all is his stance regarding TPT. Statements like this:

I just want a clarification, but your defense against the Pope is that he is your partner?

implies that he feels TPT is scum and that Simenon is his scum partner. Later on in the post, he talks about TPT asking loaded questions towards Matin, etc. He certainly creates a healthy amount of suspicion on TPT and the quote I just provided even shows him implying that TPT is scum.

There's an issue here. Jahudo is not and has not voted for TPT at all. He tosses suspicion on him whenever possible, but if he's so certain that TPT is scum, certain enough to make that statement to Simenon, then why hasn't he voted him? Furthermore is this gem right here:

I hope the Pope settles down and unvotes himself or we’ll never be able to take him seriously.

. Why is Jahudo coaching someone he thinks is scum?

Jahudo's coaching of TPT implies that Jahudo views TPT as town. Jahudo, however, has been tossing suspicion on TPT whenever possible, but has held off from voting him. He's really furthering along the TPT wagon, but remaining off of it himself, and his coaching comment suggests that he views TPT as town. Conclusion: No town player is going to push along a wagon on someone they think is town, thus Jahudo is scum.

I recently finished a game (Mini 601) where I was scum, and committed that exact same coaching a player you think is scum thing. My scum buddy committed that exact same throw a bunch of suspicion on a player and insinuate that they are scum but not vote them thing. Both of those happened on day 1, if anyone is interested in checking me up on that, but I think these reliably suggest Jahudo is scum.

Post 104: I really dislike his FoS on habitang there. Does habitang misattributing a quote make him more likely to be scum?

Post 121:

I also agree somewhat with your feeling that TPT is an irrational townie.

. His earlier posts do not give this impression. They give the impression that he is pushing TPT as being scum. I find this change in opinion (after public opinion has changed) to be suspicious.

Post 149: Now votes TPT. Originally tosses suspicion on TPT (but coaches him), then believes he's an irrational townie, and now votes him. If you believed him to be an irrational townie, then how does a poor attempt at scumhunting change your opinion to him being scum?

Post 263:

f he isn't scum he really needs to do something proactive. Any number of things could help me change my opinion of him.

. Again, I don't see how this statement fits with your vote on TPT. If you're willing to unvote him once you see even the first sign of anything pro-town then I have a feeling you're not too confident in your vote.

Post 311: I have a lot of problems with this post as well.

First is this:

Now it's much better to get everything out in the open and try to fix yourself up. Be honest and clearly outline your opinions of me and the rest. Maybe outline like nureins and Ythill did if you think I've been overlooked.

. More coaching of someone you think is scum? That gives the impression that your suspicion of him is insincere.

Second is this:

I have nothing to hide, do you?

Completely loaded question, and I don't like the fact that you have to assert your townieness.

Third:

This post certainly changed my position of you, yes.

Vote: habitang

Why? You've listed no reasons at all for this vote and have just hopped on the bandwagon.

Then your most recent post, post 347 shows you backing down after others have shown disinterest in lynching habitang.

All in all, I find Jahudo scummy because:

-Twice he coaches players he suspects, suggesting insincerity in actually thinking they are scum.
-Easily persuaded on and off wagons, suggesting a lack of strength in opinions. My take on this is that he knows he's attacking townies and thus has a compete lack of conviction knowing that they'll end up being town.
-Suggests TPT is scum by his words, but doesn't commit to the wagon.
-Jumps on the habitang wagon without any reasoning, and coaching comment suggests he knows habitang is town.

Vote Jahudo

[Goatrevolt]

What's the scum motivation for admitting OMGUS tendencies, especially when it does precisely what it has done in this situation, which is draw unnecessary suspicion upon oneself.

Start a circular-logic cycle (probably a Too Townie setup). Wondering about the motivation behind X action leads to lots of WIFOM. The only way to answer that kind of questions is asking the source directly.

I disagree, and also disagree with tossing this aside as WIFOM. It's only WIFOM if there's a 50/50 chance that scum or town would do that action. I think admitting to OMGUS tendencies is something that scum would be less likely to do, because it puts them in the spotlight and creates unnecessary suspicion on them.

[Goatrevolt]

Because (this is aimed at goat, who will get this reference) when I think active lurking, I think CPE. Or WoD. I definitely do not consider andy's play anything like that. You might accuse it of being empty, or devoid of original thought, or opportunistic, but the "active lurking" charge needs to be proven.

He doesn't have a lot of solid stances or opinions. He follows along with the game and will comment on most issues, but that's about it. Until his vote on Habitang, I couldn't honestly tell you exactly how he felt about people, because most players he seemed to have fairly down the middle. He mentioned suspicion of TPT, but also was unwilling to lynch him yet. I disagree with his vote on habitang, but at least his reasoning is consistent with his play thus far, at least lending him credibility for now.

Goat's comments on Jahudo are interesting, especially conclusions 2 and 3.

I'm not sure what you mean by interesting.

[Goatrevolt]

My only real problem with the Goat case is that he doesn't seem to have any doubt, which is unsettling but may be a function of his playstyle.

I feel pretty strongly about Jahudo as scum, but of course there is always some doubt. I just don't see his actions from the point of view of a townie looking to find scum. They make much more sense to me from the point of view of scum looking for the best spot to position himself. I really do think he jumped at the opportunity to lynch his attacker in habitang. His vote seems extremely insincere considering he was coaching habitang in the same post and in his most recent post backed off (after others showed disinterest in the case).

I'm curious as to why you are unsettled by what you perceive to be a lack of doubt in my thoughts about Jahudo.

[Goatrevolt]

Following along with the game the first time, I will admit that Jahudo was someone I had earmarked as town. The reasons were that he was keeping pace with the game and throwing his 2 cents in on most matters. I believe Jahudo mentioned he hadn't played a whole lot of games, and he struck me as a helpful townie.

It wasn't until the reread that this opinion (quite drastically I will admit) changed. I'm not surprised that most players have him listed as town because I originally did as well. I'd like to ask everyone to go back through and review his posts in context of the game situations.

@Cass: There's a difference between being unsure and being opportunistic. So far I read you as being unsure. I've seen you jump on and off wagons based on new evidence, and though I didn't necessarily agree with you I thought your pushing of Simenon was fine. For those reasons I've been willing to give you a bit of a pass for now.

According to my analysis, Jahudo has jumped on and off wagons not based on new evidence, but based on changes in public opinion. Your suspicion of Simenon seemed real. His suspicions of TPT and habitang seemed insincere or fake because his coaching showed a mentality that he thought they were town. The manner in which he jumped on and off those wagons also didn't match that of a player who genuinely suspected those he voted for. It matched that of a player looking for an easy lynch, or looking for the best spot to blend in with the town.

@Nureins: Habitang actually made a couple of decent points against Jahudo throughout the thread if I recall correctly.

Also, question for you: How does your perception of Jahudo's consistency (waits to gather evidence for a while prior to voting) correlate to his vote on habitang?

Personally I don't think he has been consistent in that manner as you do, but I'd like to see your answer to the above question.

3- Which are the differences among the two cases ? which of the two attitudes would scum choose to behave with, most probably and why ?

I can't tell you which behavior scum would choose to behave with because everyone plays differently as scum. Voting opportunism is probably my number 1 way to catch scum though. Whose votes look like they are trying to find scum vs. whose votes look they are trying to blend in or get townies lynched. As for Andycyca, I think his behavior is a good one for scum as well, as it leads to whoever commits the most scum tells gets lynched mentality, which I find often correlates into just lynching the worst player every day rather than lynching scum. I've seen townies play under the same mentality though, which is why I don't find it conclusive.

@Ythill: When I construct a case, I generally go through and just pick out the parts that I find indicative that said player is scum. This is something I just do subconsciously because I guess it's been ingrained in me as habit, but I can see how it could be destructive. I've used this to good extent in nailing scum, but I've also used it as scum to nail townies, so I can understand your point. I dislike pointing out town tells while making a case on a player because I think that player is scum and want them lynched and pointing out town tells seriously detracts from a case. However, I'd be willing to make a PBPA on Jahudo and point out town/scum tells I see. I've only completed 4 games on this site (2 scum, 2 town), but I'm fairly consistent in this approach in all of my games. Mini 601, 604, 626, and Open 70 are my completed games.

@Nureins: Why does a weaker player attacking another player make that other player more likely to be town? Are you suggesting that a weak player is always going to be wrong day 1?

@Simenon: I'll provide those in a bit.

[Goatrevolt]

He doesn't have a lot of solid stances or opinions. He follows along with the game and will comment on most issues, but that's about it. Until his vote on Habitang, I couldn't honestly tell you exactly how he felt about people, because most players he seemed to have fairly down the middle. He mentioned suspicion of TPT, but also was unwilling to lynch him yet. I disagree with his vote on habitang, but at least his reasoning is consistent with his play thus far, at least lending him credibility for now.

No, I mean actually prove it with quotations, links, or post numbers

I'm just going through Andycyca's posts in a vacuum here so post numbers are 0, 1, 2, 3, etc.

0: random
1: random
2: Analysis on what's happened so far. No stated opinions.
3: nothing
4: nothing
5: Analysis, suggests suspicion of TPT, but no opinion stated. Also, I dislike the "I'm a townie" bit.
6: More Analysis/following along with the game, but no stated opinions.
7: Finally gives opinions when called out. None of these opinions are solid. I gather that he somewhat finds Sim/Nureins townie, and somewhat finds TPT scummy but that's about all.
8: Analysis
9: Gives an opinion on Sim
10: Double post
11: Questions Ythill, doesn't answer Ythill's question
12: Sorry for not posting
13: This is a good post. He gives an opinion on Nureins and I agree with it. I think it makes plenty of sense. He also throws a FoS on Habitang for suggesting no lynch. My question is why not a vote, and why did this not factor into his later reasons for voting habitang?
14: Votes for habitang
15: Defense
16: Analysis/theory
17: Sorry can't post.

The vast majority of those are him following along with the game but not really contributing anything truly of worth in terms of finding scum (active lurking). The only post here that suggests to me at all the mindset of a townie is the top half of post 13.

I'm not sure what you mean by interesting.

engaging or exciting and holding the attention or curiosity

I guess I'll rephrase my question as: What is your take on Jahudo?

[Goatrevolt]

Yes, you did vote for TPT eventually, however you also basically told him the exact thing he could do to get you to unvote him, which suggests insincerity in actually finding him suspicious.

As for habitang, you're saying you put the 4th vote on the wagon specifically to gauge his reaction and get a better read on him but you didn't actually think he was scum? What did you anticipate your vote accomplishing? Also, I find it hard to instantly accept this explanation, simply because if others had jumped aboard the habitang wagon, you could have merely stayed on and rode it to a lynch, later citing that you were genuinely suspicious of him.

I personally do not thinking coaching in and of itself is a scummy action. I know, as town, I've coached players before that I think are town. My issue is that the implications of coaching someone means that you think they are town and want them to play better to help find scum or avoid getting lynched. Why would you coach someone you think is scum to play better and show them how to avoid suspicion? Instead you're happy they're playing bad and wish them to get lynched. That's why I have an issue with simultaneously coaching a player you also think is scum or are throwing suspicion on. Coaching them suggests that you are not actually suspicious of them, and thus the insincerity issue I've brought up.

Also, can you further explain the statement where you say to Simenon something about thinking he and TPT are partners. What exactly were you trying to imply with that statement? I have some thoughts here, but I'd like to see your answer to that question first.

[Goatrevolt]

If you were unfamiliar with masons, then why did you specifically use the term "partner." My thought was that you were implying that they were scum buddies together. That's how I initially read that as, and how it looked to me based in context with the rest of your post, especially the part where you FoS Simenon. Your FoS on Simenon implies that you find him scummy. Your statement that you believe them to be partners implies that they are of the same alignment, thus I think it's a fairly safe assumption that you were accusing them of both being scum buddies. Is this correct?

[Goatrevolt]

habits of habitang.

I've been looking for an opportunity to work that in somewhere .

I need to read through the last couple of pages including the habitang pbpa and analysis by jahudo.

Question: Jahudo, what is your stance on habitang right now? You're vote is still on him, correct? Do you find him scummy right now, and was that PBPA a list of reasons why, or was that a post facto defense of your vote reasoning?

[Goatrevolt]

Sirdan: If you check my other games, you'll see that my lack of posting in this game is consistent with those. I'm definitely having some real life issues, and this is a busy time in my life, so the amount of time I'm spending playing mafia has been cut down a lot. I hate replacing out of games, so I intend to stick it out and contribute when I can, but I probably won't be contributing nearly as much as you're used to seeing from me. It's a huge change from Mini 601 where I was very actively posting, however I was also scum in that game, so I don't really see why my lessened post rate in this game would give you the impression that I'm doing it because I'm scum. You've seen me play very actively as scum, so lesser activity definitely shouldn't be something you can call me out on based on meta.

I'll address any other points against me later on.

[Goatrevolt]

@Goatrevolt: Please jump in and reply to my case, and how nureins handles it.

Doing so at the moment.

The fact that you were very active as scum doesn't mean that you can lurk and look town, it's not simple like that.

I never implied that my lowered activity (lurking, if you must) is pro-town. I simply said that you took a game where I was scum and active, and then showed me playing differently this game and said it was a scum tell, which is completely off base. If you're going to use metagaming as a basis behind your case, you need to actually show a situation where it applies. If you look through the four games I've completed on this site, I think you'll find that I was one of the most active posters in all 4 games, 2 as scum and 2 as town. I don't see why my lowered activity is at all indicative of me being scum. I'll say it again, I've been very busy in real life and do not have the time to dedicate to mafia which has significantly reduced my presence in my games across the board. If your only point against me is that I've been less active, then I will say I don't think you have a strong case. If there is more I'll address it while I'm reading through right now.

[Goatrevolt]

Now, some more on Goatrevolt. Up until about page 14, he was very passive. Then came the case on Jahudo. A subtle, but sudden change of playing style, which I perceive as a scum tell. This case was certainly well-thought out, but the thing is, I question the usefulness of such a PBPA in itself. There are several flaws with it.

My change in playstyle was not subtle at all. I didn't gradually sneak my way back in the game, but came back with a case on my top suspect and a list of suspects.

You're going to have to explain how this is a scum tell at all. I fell behind in the game, and then reread and listed out my top suspect to try to get back in the swing of things. Can you give me a scenario where I could have gotten back into the game in a non-scummy manner?

1. It rips the posts out of context, at least if you use the method of only showing posts by one user. And even if you don't, you tend to merely glance over the other posts.

I don't find PBPA's generally that effective. I'll use them from time to time, but when you show every single post someone makes it dilutes the point you're getting across. So many of a player's posts are null tells, and by showing them all, you really weaken your case. So when I build a case, I point out what I find scummy about that player. That doesn't involve every single post they make, nor should it in my opinion.

I don't think I took anything out of context. I believe Jahudo would have corrected me if I did, and I don't recall him making such an accusation.

2. Tunnel vision. You see the player who you are analyzing in the light of what you are trying to prove. I could go fancy by calling a famous psychiatrist's name who did some research of that effect, although I don't see how that would benefit the town. Anyway, you pick out the scumtells, and as they are also out of context they get magnified.

Other way around. I try to prove what I see about the character. I saw actions that to me suggested Jahudo being scum. I went about trying to prove that to the rest of the game, which is the point of case building. You're trying to suggest that I pick some random thing and then try to find someone I can build a case around to fit that random thing. Instead, I find a player who I think is scummy, and then I try to neatly organize my reasons for believing that they are scum so others can agree/disagree.

Goatrevolt is a skilled player. Firstly, he has the ability to make the PBPA so that it looks (and, to some extent, is) sophisticated, thought out well and not just thrown together. This could be perceived as pro-town. Secondly, he knows that he has to add some pro-town bits (with that I mean something like: '#x - good post, town tell'), and he did.

This paragraph is entirely from your already predetermined perspective that I'm scum. Here is the gist of your statement: "Goatrevolt's PBPA looks pro-town, but it's just him as scum looking like he's town." Do you see the issue with that? You've failed to suggest why I'm scum and have instead assumed as such and are now trying to rectify that stance with things that seem pro-town with my play.

Fact remains is that such a pbpa is not really solid evidence. Scum could pick out some scumtells that a towny did, town could magnify minor scumtells of a towny, or the same with a mafia-aligned player. What I mean to say is that Goat's PBPA (two of 'em, actually) is not a town-tell at all. Combined with his change of play, it's a scum tell.

Again you fail to show why I'm scum, instead you are trying to show how my actions could possibly work

IF

I was scum. What constitutes solid evidence? How does a townie push a case on scum? You keep suggesting that I'm scum and I'm pulling Jahudo's posts out of context and magnifying scum tells to make him seem like scum. What about the scenario you've completely ignored about me being town and bringing to the spotlight scummy actions that were overlooked.

Sirdan, I want you to tell me exactly how a townie plays. How does a townie get scum lynched? There must be some secret technique they use that doesn't involve making a case on them, because apparently me making a case is a scum tell.

As for the change of play aspect, I addressed that earlier. You need to show me how a townie is supposed to catch back up in a game they fall behind in, because obviously I did it incorrectly.

And Goatrevolt also knows how to lurk at times, in the beginning of the game this had real life reasons, but now it really just seems that he only participates when it would be advantageous to him, whereas a towny player would continuously contribute in order to help the town as a whole and to find scum.

First of all, that's not true, unless you think every single lurker in this game is scum. One of them is likely a player who is not continuously contributing but still town. As for your accusation that I only participate when advantageous, you need to prove that statement.

Overall, your case on me boils down to two things. I made a case on Jahudo, and it's possible that I made that case as scum trying to push suspicion on a town player. This ignores the alternative that I'm town trying to push suspicion on a player I find scummy. You have yet to prove why one scenario is more likely than the other.

Secondly, that I've been less active. This differs from my normal play as both town and scum, and I've mentioned that I'm really busy in real life as an explanation why. My activity level has decreased in every game I'm in. You need to show why exactly this suggests I'm scum, rather than just say that I'm not contributing to every little thing and calling it a scum tell. Despite my low post count, I believe I've weighed in on almost every discussion of consequence this entire game (TPT, Simenon, Nureins/Ythill, Habitang) and also pushed a case on the person I considered most likely to be scum.

[Goatrevolt]

1. Passive play, not what I'm used to see of Goatrevolt, so this is scummy in itself. You didn't include that in your summary.

Wrong. You've seen me play once as scum where I was active. You've yet to prove that passive play = scum for me.

2. Change of play style to being less passive, although his new playing style is less scummy, the change in itself is a scum tell. A towny wouldn't do that, in my opinion.

A townie would continue to lurk and not catch up in the game?

3. Nureins, you're completely wrong on the other points. I am not saying

Goatrevolt

is tunnel visioned, I am saying that the

method

Goatrevolt used is tunnel visioned in itself, and that Goatrevolt is experienced enough to know that and perhaps abuse it if he's scum.

When I build a case on someone, I focus on that player. Why is that, you may ask? Ah, yes, it's because I think they are scum. What would you like me to do, say "I think Jahudo is scum, but rather than build a case on him I'm just going to keep looking around at everyone."

That last statement is again assuming I'm scum and that I'm abusing my "experience" to nail a townie. The problem again is that you assume I'm scum, but do not prove why, and then after you assume I'm scum try to show how my actions make sense from that conception.

Look through all my games. I use similar case building methods as both town and scum. I've found it to be effective in nailing scum and getting the town on board with their lynch. When I build a case on a player, my goal as the case builder is to suggest to the rest of the town how I find that player scum. I do so by pointing out where they've said things that I find scummy.

4. Sophistication is not a scum tell, it's there to prove that Goatrevolt is a skilled and experienced player, so things perceived as town tells by you are not necessarily just that.

Because I've done well at playing scum doesn't mean that I am scum, or that any townie actions I do are scum tells. Your case against me seems to be much of "Goatrevolt is good at playing scum, so his town tells are just him acting town as scum." Do you think I act like scum as town? In other words, you've ignored the other explanation, which is that I'm acting like town as town.

5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

You need to back this up with concrete evidence.

nuriens, look at the way you and Cass teamed up against Simenon for very poor reasons. A lot of what I see in those posts seems evident of a scumpair pushing a wagon. The way Cass jumped off looked like she realized it was a lost cause and tried to get you to get off too.

There were some valid points against Simenon. Besides, obvious teaming up like that is rarely the way scum play. Habits 455 also makes a good point.

@Nureins: I would very much prefer if you didn't defend other players before giving them a chance to defend themselves. The way people react and reply to cases built against them is useful information. By answering for them, you provide them with opportunities to just recycle what you say and rob the town of that information.

[Goatrevolt]

Please don't converse in another language. Everything you say in this game is meant to be read by all.

[Goatrevolt]

My big issue with sirdanilot was simply that for the amount of pressure and suspicion he placed on me he neither FoSed or voted for me, and instead FoSed Simenon for something smaller. Overall, I'm pretty neutral on him, though. I think his case on me is bad, but I don't necessarily see it as scummy.

I do like Cass's case on Citizen Karne, though, and will be reviewing him myself.

[Goatrevolt]

I also don't see how it's helpful or pro-town for YThill to repeatedly declare that the player he's attacking is scum. It's an attempt to strengthen his argument by repetitious declaration and certainty in belief and just serves to frustrate and confuse others. I don't see what kind of useful reactions it would generate either.

I'm pretty 50/50 on sirdanilot, but whether or not he is scum, I still don't like the method of attack on him.

FoS Ythill

I'm going to review Citizen Karne and Sirdanilot.

[Goatrevolt]

I also don't see how it's helpful or pro-town for YThill to repeatedly declare that the player he's attacking is scum.

Your lack of understanding has nothing to do with my alignment. The question is, can you see how it is helpful for anti-town Ythill?

Yes, I can. Doing something like this can be used to manufacture additional suspicion on someone that isn't real. Calling him scum repeatedly can boost your case by instilling that idea in player's minds, and making your case seem stronger than merely the actual points that comprise it. I can see this leading to a mislynch and furthermore one that doesn't necessarily implicate you as scum for the exact reasons you brought up.

Also, you dodged the initial question of "why is it helpful or pro-town."

It's an attempt to strengthen his argument by repetitious declaration and certainty in belief...

You are correct. See, I'm pretty sure sirdan is scum (I've said why) and I would like people to help me lynch him. Isn't it pro-town to try to lynch scum?

Yes, it is pro-town to try to lynch scum. Is it pro-town to try and lynch Ythill's target? That remains to be seen. Here is the issue: You're trying to make your case seem stronger than simply the points that make it up. Repitious declaration and certainty in belief do not make sirdanilot more likely to be scum. Nor are they meaningful whatsoever in determining whether or not he is scum. So rather than merely present your points against sirdan and why you think that makes him scum, by powering up your arguments in this manner you generate false suspicion on him.

...and just serves to frustrate and confuse others.

Is it the attack-style, or the defense-style? I said that sirdan's case on you was contrived. Do you disagree? I said that his case on you was more detailed and reasonable (prima facie) that that on Sim, yet his FoS was on Sim, not you. Don't you find that odd as well? Etc.

Now I'm still saying those same things while adding "scum" to sirdan's name. I argue that it isn't confusing at all. You may find it frustrating, but that's a matter of personal taste.

It adds unnecessary elements to your attack on sirdanilot, which certainly does create confusion. People question why you are so certain in your belief, and if there is something more to the case that they are missing to give you that impression. I'm personally not frustrated by it at all, I just don't find it pro-town or useful.

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by doing this and how does it aid in finding scum?

Finally, weren't you the one who expressed suspicion on my case on Jahudo because I didn't express enough doubt while presenting it? Aren't you doing the exact thing you grilled me about but to an even larger extent?

[Goatrevolt]

Lynching someone you don't think is scum for information purposes is really bad. Every single lynch yields information. Certainly a pacman lynch would yield more information than others, but is that extra information worth lynching someone if you don't really suspect them of being scum? Absolutely not.

Let's see, I'm suspicious of Jahudo, Citizen Karne, Sirdan, Ythill, Andycya and Simenon.

I'm not sure how to order those yet, or how to rectify suspicions of two players that don't seem likely to be scum with each other (Sirdan/Ythill for instance). Also, where is Ectomancer? He's basically disappeared completely.

[Goatrevolt]

my top 3 in order:

Jahudo->Citizen Karne->Ythill

Unvote, Vote Citizen Karne

based on the lack of support for Jahudo.

Citizen Karne has been really absent of late, but is also absent from another game I'm in with him, so I don't see it as meaningful either way. If he gets his prod I'd like to see his response to Cass's case.

[Goatrevolt]

Lynching for info is dumb. Every lynch gives information. Instead lynch who you think is scum.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm opposed to a pacman lynch, but I'd be willing to lynch Ythill.

[Goatrevolt]

An interesting tidbit, in another game I'm playing, some of the players are trying to say that being replaced in a game without a good reason is a scumtell in itself. I don't totally buy it, but has anyone else seen this argument before?

It kind of depends on the situation, but I've seen similar arguments used before and been actually correct.

I personally feel that replacing out of a game (or even avoiding posting in a game while posting in others) while you are under pressure can be a definite scum tell under the right circumstances. Unless you have an actually legitimate excuse such as: "No internet access/lack of time to play (proven by posting in other games as well)/etc." I find replacing out while under pressure to be scummy.

I agree that nobody should be lynched without a claim, but I think that should go without having to be said.

[Goatrevolt]

Hi Kuribo. And I saw Karne on the site today, so if you read this, Citizen karne: please come back and help us finish this day. I think this is one of the strangest games of mafia I've played yet. This whole compromise lynch is... different.

Agreed. I haven't been playing mafia all that long, but I've never seen anything like it.

[Goatrevolt]

I seriously am lost in the midst of vote compromises, insane number of replacements, and large walls of text. I'd like to do a player by player reread, and will start today.

[Goatrevolt]

I've decided to stick with the game. I'm reading through right now trying to catch up and pull out information from day 1 that will help now that we know two player alignments.

I see nureins is under fire at the moment. I won't comment on that until I've fully reread, but has anyone looked at Cass? Her FoS but not a vote on Habitang seems suspicious to me now that we know he was scum.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm on page 17 at the moment. One thing that has bothered me in my read through so far is nureins defense of Jahudo. Much of the defense of Jahudo was based around habitang's poor attacks on Jahudo making Jahudo more likely to be town. Jahudo is only more likely to be town in that scenario if habitang is scum. In other words, I see nureins defense coming from the perspective of habitang being scum, however, if nureins felt that way, he should have been voting habitang or pushing him, which was not the case. The other alternative is that nureins knew habitang was scum, because nureins is also scum, and that subconsciously played out in his posting.

[Goatrevolt]

I've completely caught up with the game. It was actually less painful than I envisioned to read it all. Thoughts:

Sirdan: I can see reasons to both buy and discard his doc claim.

Pros:
-He gave good reasons for why he chose Ectomancer last night. I disagree with the point about him being able to claim Ythill though. There's no way he would be able to get away with that when Ythill was by and far his top target. No legitimate doc protects someone they think is scum.
-Strictly from what I know of Sirdan, I simply do not think of him as the type of player who is ballsy enough to fake a doc claim. He seems a very straightforward player, and quite frankly I see him as less likely to pull trickery like this.

Cons:
-He's still alive, and Ecto doesn't seem a highly likely scum NK target.

Counterpoint: Other explanations for the missing kill and scum could keep him alive to plant suspicion

-Here's the big one, and the only solid reason I have for doubting his claim:

How does TPT's play make sense if he's the doc?

Quite frankly, it doesn't. His self vote was under the premise of "well you are going to lynch me anyway, I might as well speed up the process." Um...if he's a doc he has a solid safe claim that means he's NOT going to get lynched. So why this mentality?

Overall: I'm skeptical, but not confident to lynch him today. Personally, I think if there is a real doc they should counterclaim. Trading a town power role for a 2nd scum seems pretty good right now. That would put us in a hugely advantageous situation, as 1 lone scum stands almost no chance of winning at this point in the game.

Ythill: Why did you vote for Pacman yesterday? This makes absolutely no sense considering your constant defense of him yesterday. Your vote was at a juncture where things were undecided as well, making it even more suspicious. To me, this reads like you wanting to change gears from defense to bus, but then when things swapped back to Darox being the lynch you returned to Darox being scum and Pacman town. Please explain.

Cass: Continued pressure on Simenon today, despite the fact that Simenon makes little sense as a scum buddy with Pacman. I personally don't buy the "Oh, I just want the day to end already" and "Well, I have legitimate concerns about Karne, but nobody else sees it" posts. They read false to me, and your push on Karne and only Karne reads like an easy way for you to remain out of the loop, but still look like someone actively scumhunting. You had an unsupported "gut" feel of Sirdan being town, and relatively little in terms of a stance on Pacman. You continue to snipe at Simenon for points that seem irrelevant or not indicative of him being scum. I hold it's a facade of scumhunting but not legitimate.

FoS Cass

Nureins: Was really wishy-washy regarding habitang yesterday. I don't like how he buddies up to anyone who suspects him, like Ythill and his attempts to do so with Kuribo early today. It seems like he is trying to buy their support with niceties. I didn't like his defense of Jahudo for reasons I brought up.

FoS Nureins

Ecto: Midway through the reread I had him earmarked as town for his jump on Pacman's bad push on him. I boggle at how his suspicion of Pacman completely disappeared as the day wore on and how he voted Darox without any mention of pacman at all. It's definitely sketchy. Overall, though, I feel he's more likely to be town than any of the others I've listed above.

The rest of the game: I feel pretty confident is town at the moment.

Tomorrow, I'll go deeper into my suspicions of Cass/nureins and back it up with examples and a vote. At the moment, I'm having a hard time deciding which of the two I find scummier, and I'm hoping a thorough analysis will settle the issue.

[Goatrevolt]

@GOAT (ACCUSSING ME OF BUDDYING KURIBO)

This was the post:

I guess that means I'll be the lynch for tomorrow?

It seems to me that Darox also convinced you of his scumness...we, the retarded open you the doors of our house.

But we are in day 2. If you want to start with your cases, you are welcome.
And I suppose you will enjoy with me for some time (given your attitude, for the whole of day 2 i guess). Anyway, while I re-consider the situation and formulate my own questions, I can enjoy your majesty of the perfect scumhunting..

I'll admit on reread it's difficult to decipher whether this is sarcasm or to be taken literally, but this read as sucking up to Kuribo being correct day 1.

@Ythill, I'll look more into the nature of your defense of pacman, but to me it seemed absurd you voted him after you spent a lot of time outlining why you didn't perceive him to be scum (or at the very least, didn't approve of the wagon on him, which is of the same vein). Also, Darox was at 3 votes when you voted Pacman, so the "only wagon" reasoning is out, despite being a completely invalid line of reasoning anyway. Even if there is only one wagon, that doesn't mean you have to be on it. Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with being wrong, which I agree is not scummy. Voting for someone you had previously spent time defending, however, raises some serious flags.

[Goatrevolt]

@Goat: You and I must have different definitions of buddying. When I use that term, I mean behavior that could point to a scum-buddy relationship after the guilty party card-flips scum. Nuriens' main buddy targets have been Ecto, Cass, and myself. I think what you quoted was sarcasm and comradere and maybe, like you said, kissing up to kuribo a little, but I don't think it was buddying.

Yes, we have different ideas of the term. What I mean by buddying up can be basically summarized as sucking up, or acting in a certain fashion to try to get the support of a player. I'll admit his behavior to kuribo early in the day could certainly have been entirely sarcastic and not buddying, but when I read through it, the "we the retarded" and "perfect scumhunting" phrases struck me as him applauding kuribo being correct, and essentially sucking up to him. His actions towards you yesterday were certainly buddying or sucking up completely though. Notice the change in how nuriens addresses or refers to Ythill while Ythill is attacking him compared to after Ythill has moved on to other targets. After Ythill has moved on, you see nuriens in multiple occasions say stuff along the lines of "what me and Ythill are saying" etc.

Regarding Kuribo, I'm confused about the relevance of any perceived doubt Kuribo had about Darox/Pacman. Why does this matter?

[Goatrevolt]

WHO IS PLEASING YTHILL?

Additionally, who is going down on Ythill's scum meter?

[Goatrevolt]

Darox is going to die.

What does this mean?

P.S. - Kuribo needs some investigation for possibly bussing Pacman.

Any evidence to actually suggest this is the case? Or is it just a case of "player was right about scum, therefore they must be scum busing?" The latter is a weak argument at best, and seems a poor reason to try to direct the cop.

[Goatrevolt]

It ain't.

Vote nuriens

That's

L-1.

Nope, that's L-0.

I just started my review on Cass, I'll post the little I have in twilight:

Cass:

Posts 17-18 between habitang/Cass actually would suggest that they are not scum together. The "remember me Cass, yes I do" thing seems unlikely for two scum to say to each other, especially if they've had time to communicate pre-game.

And that's all so far. I was hoping to review nureins before lynching him, but I got lazy and kept putting it off. It may be worth it anyway depending on his flip.

[Goatrevolt]

Quick response:

Lots of people said: "Blah blah blah, you cant do this, you cant do that"

I'm directing the cop and the Vig/SK. You'll just have to deal with it. You want more answers? I'm not interested in providing them. Lynch Nureins

Actually, no you're wrong. It has nothing to do with you directing the cop, it has everything to do with reasons why, which you haven't provided.

I want to know why you think the cop should investigate Kuribo. I want to know why you said Darox was going to die. I don't want to hear some lame strawman of an excuse and have you brush it off.

[Goatrevolt]

Sirdan, who did you protect last night?

[Goatrevolt]

I'm fine with a mass claim.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm vanilla.

Oh right.

Let me check with the mod to see who Nhat targeted.

Why wouldn't you ask that immediately? Considering the night 1 kill was blocked...

@Jahudo: I recall you not knowing what masons were early on in the game. Why would you say that? I'm not sure how your claim fits with your interaction with Simenon from earlier either. Anyway, does your role PM confirm Cass as town?

Likewise, Cass, does your role confirm Jahudo?

[Goatrevolt]

Nhat targeted pacman.

@Goat: I did ask, I just had to find it again amongst my PM's.

Fair enough.

I think I have an idea what the rest of the claims are and I have a couple ideas about the setup. I'll wait first though.

[Goatrevolt]

Darox: It takes you 52 minutes and a prod to check? Why would you say you have to check with the mod if you already did?

[Goatrevolt]

I'm pretty sure the last scum is Simenon or Ythill. Assuming Jahudo/Cass have confirmation of each other's alignments, of course. I'm fairly certain I know what the last claims will be, but I don't want to get ahead of myself.

We should be able to win this game fairly easily strictly off process of elimination, since the majority of the game will be easily confirmed as town.

[Goatrevolt]

Jahudo: Sometimes your mason role will say something along the lines of "Cass is confirmed town to you." If it doesn't, there is the chance that one of the masons is scum and a mason.

So here's what we have:

Kuribo - vanilla
Goat - vanilla
Darox - Roleblocker
Simenon - Roleblocker
Ythill - Tracker
Sirdanilot - Doctor
Jahudo - Mason
Cass - Mason
Ecto - ? (but fairly obvious)

It's possible one of Jahudo/Cass are scum, but I don't think it's something we really need to test at the moment. I'm fine with writing them off for now.

Sirdanilot is town. Either Ythill is lying and is scum (thus Sirdan is town) or Ythill is town and telling the truth (thus Sirdan is town).

Ecto is either town or potentially a SK. I'm leaning town, but if we lynch 3 scum and the game isn't over, it's worth checking out. There's no chance of him being mafia.

Darox claimed to roleblock Pacman night one. Pacman was a watcher, whereas nureins was a godfather. It would be very odd for Pacman to submit the kill unless the scum can both kill and use other abilities at the same time. I think this would suggest Ecto was successfully protected night 1. Night two he claimed a roleblock on Ecto. From Ecto's post earlier today, I can fairly safely assume Darox is not lying about this.

Both vanilla claims: I think this is a case of "too much power." Kuribo is confirmed town if sirdan's protection was what blocked the scum night kill. For now, that's a likely assumption, as Darox RBed Ecto who really can't be Mafia, and Simenon roleblocked Cass who is a mason. I have nothing to confirm me, but unless you feel the town legitimately has this much power, I think we're better off focusing on who's the lying power role.

Ythill: Both players he claimed to track make sense. He's able to confirm sirdan as pro-town either by virtue of being the last scum or being legitimately a tracker. It's possible he's scum, but at the moment I'm leaning town on him simply because of the way he's played today.

Simenon: Claimed RB on Pacman night 1 and Cass night 2. Came into the thread pushing Cass seemingly based on role information. That alone leads me to believe him as a more trustworthy Roleblocker claim than Darox. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a scum roleblocker to make a claim like that.


If we reverse things back to the end of yesterday, Ecto said something along the lines of "Darox is going to die." My guess of what happened is that instead of submitting the scum night kill, Darox roleblocked Ecto to keep him from getting the game winning vig shot. I also am a bit suspicious of the "let me check the mod, oh wait, I had already asked the mod I just had to check my PM box but it takes me 52 minutes" deal. One last thing worth checking up on. Was Nhat even around to submit a roleblock night 1?

[Goatrevolt]

Assuming one of the roleblockers is scum (likely) then our breakdown is:

Mafia watcher
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Godfather (vanilla scum basically)

against

Mason pair
Tracker
Doc
Vig
Roleblocker

which still seems fairly town power heavy. So I think the presence of a SK is plausible. Ecto targeting Pacman makes little sense though from a SK perspective, unless his plan was to fake a vig claim all along. Otherwise, why wouldn't he shoot the claimed doc or someone else considered likely to be town?


@Ythill: Another plan is this: We lynch Darox or Sim. The other roleblocker roleblocks Ectomancer.

[Goatrevolt]

uhh no. Let's lynch one of me/Darox, have ecto shoot the other one, and then lynch ecto if necessary.

unless he was a 1-shot vig

I doubt it based on his post earlier today. The "what happened last night" thing would highly suggest he got blocked trying to do something.

[Goatrevolt]

Otherwise, why wouldn't he shoot the claimed doc or someone else considered likely to be town?

When I've played SK, I've tried to get a scum early, b/c it legitimizes the vig claim and makes a tidy endgame more plausible (in theory, I've only lost as SK). Your alternative sounds okay, Sim's does not. We could combine them...

Lynch Darox or Sim. The other is killed by Ecto and blocks Ecto. Sirdan should protect one of: me, kuribo, or Goat.

I'll change my vote if we decide on this combined plan.

Sounds good to me. I prefer this plan simply because it's more tidy if Ecto is actually a town vig and not a SK. If Ecto is a SK, it should give us the same result.

Vote Darox

[Goatrevolt]

If Ythill is scum there was no "guessing" involved. He would have tried to kill Kuribo and failed, thus clearly he can imply (or is it infer? Let's get TPT back in here!) Sirdan targeted Kuribo.

I like this plan: We lynch Darox. Ecto targets Simenon for a kill. Simenon roleblocks Ecto. Ythill tracks Sirdanilot. Sirdan protects anyone except Simenon.

That scenario should almost certainly result in no kill. Simenon can't kill because he's blocking Ecto. Ecto should be roleblocked and thus unable to kill. If Ythill is scum, I bet he is a tracker as claimed, and would be forced to track Sirdan to avoid getting caught. By doing this, we shut down the scum NK and give the only kill to the town.

[Goatrevolt]

SO, Darox's claim stands on its face more due to the fact that Sirdan lives.

Obviously Darox is a roleblocker. That doesn't mean he's town.

Would Scum Darox roleblock Ecto, not knowing whether he was a vig or not? Clearly scum needs to roleblock the doc if they have a Mafia Roleblocker. But the fact that Ecto failed to kill Sirdan says to me that Sim isn't being truthful about blocking Cass.

Both could plausibly be roleblockers. I think both ARE roleblockers. Simenon came into the day today voting Cass in a manner that suggested all kinds of hidden information. I'm inclined to believe he's telling the truth about being a roleblocker who blocked Cass. If I was a roleblocker, blocked Cass and no night kill happened, I would have come into the day in a very similar manner as that.

"Would scum Darox roleblock Ecto?" Absolutely. Ecto said point blank "Darox is going to die" yesterday. If I were a roleblocker I would block the shit out of that.

Sirdan doc protects me, as verified by Ythill. Ythill is confirmed because Mafia already lost their tracker in pacman, so Ythill is a pro-town tracker. This confirms Sirdan as doc, because I am not dead and if Sirdan were scum, I would be.

Ythill isn't confirmed. Pacman was a watcher. Ythill is a tracker. It's plausible Ythill is a scum tracker to compliment Pacman. It's also plausible he's a town tracker to offset him. Sirdanilot is confirmed as town though. Either Ythill is town and telling the truth, thus Sirdan is confirmed, or Ythill is scum and knows Sirdan targeted Kuribo because he tried to kill Kuribo. In that case, Sirdan is also confirmed.


I have 2 hypothesis on what happened last night:

1. Darox is scum and rather than attempt a NK, he instead roleblocks Ectomancer, who has claimed that he will shoot Darox. A scum Darox MUST make this play to survive, or else risk that Ecto is lying or bluffing. Ythill targets Sirdanilot. Simenon targets Cass. Ecto shoots Sirdanilot.

2. Ythill is scum and shot Kuribo. Sirdanilot made the protection and saved him. Darox roleblocked Ecto. Simenon roleblocked Cass. Ecto shot at Sirdanilot.

I guess also a possibility is Simenon shot at Kuribo and came into the day trying to pin it on Cass. Seems risky and uncharacteristic for scum.

Why didn’t scum kill night 1: Because pacman was RB’ed or Ecto was protected. I find it more likely that nureins tried to night kill because he was Godfather and was more active than pacman anyway.

I believe that Ectomancer was the intended kill and was successfully protected by Sirdanilot. Why wouldn't nureins submit the kill over pacman, who is a watcher?

Why didn’t scum kill night 2: Because kuribo was protected.

Kuribo was protected or the scum chose to use an ability rather than kill (Darox blocks Ecto or Ythill tracks Sirdan).

Personally, I don't think anyone is lying about their role. I just think one of these roles is scum.

[Goatrevolt]

I think where the disconnect lies is that I'm working from the assumption that both ARE roleblockers. I think both Darox and Simenon have played in a way to suggest that they are what they claim. From that starting point, I believe Darox simply makes more sense as scum.

The people voting Simenon seem to be approaching it from the idea that one of them is lying about being a roleblocker. If that's the case, obviously Simenon would be the one lying since Darox's RB is confirmed.

If the question is: Could both be roleblockers? The answer is yes. It's possible one is a scum RB and the other a town one. It's possible both are town (though I find that less likely).

Anyway, I think the best thing we can do is go back through the thread and read through earlier posts and see if they make sense or fit people's claims. It's worth reading through to see if Simenon fits as a RB, if Ythill fits as a tracker, if Cass/Jahudo fit as masons. I remember Cass defending Jahudo fairly strongly day 1, which would certainly support them being masons together, for instance.

[Goatrevolt]

Anyway, I think the best thing we can do is go back through the thread and read through earlier posts and see if they make sense or fit people's claims. It's worth reading through to see if Simenon fits as a RB, if Ythill fits as a tracker, if Cass/Jahudo fit as masons. I remember Cass defending Jahudo fairly strongly day 1, which would certainly support them being masons together, for instance.

Ythill as tracker is confirmed unless you think sirdan and he are scum partners. Which is a bit of a stretch since I fully expected them to travel to one another's homes and attack the other.

Not necessarily. He could have been scum submitting a night kill on you, and since his kill was blocked, he could claim tracker knowing that Sirdanilot had to have protected you.

However, he would have had to guess that Cass was vanilla or some other non-targeting role. So, I would agree that Ythill is most likely a tracker. Not guaranteed though.

[Goatrevolt]

Jahudo: Why do you think Simenon is more likely scum than Darox?

[Goatrevolt]

Just so there is no confusion:

Simenon -> Should be roleblocking Ecto
Ecto -> Should be shooting Simenon
Sirdanilot -> Should be protecting any player other than Simenon. (Don't reveal your target until after Ythill)
Ythill -> Tracking Sirdanilot
Jahudo/Cass -> Talking to each other
Goat/Kuribo -> Doing nothing.

[Goatrevolt]

Will Ythill tracking sirdan do anything but confirm his tracker status, since there's that watcher & tracker scum possibility? What if we do have a fourth scum, should he be looking for that?

I highly doubt we have a 4th scum, unless that scum is a serial killer (Ecto). I've never once seen a 4-8 mafia to town setup, and I would imagine it's strongly balanced against town, especially with the scum power we've seen. 3-1-8 seems fair and balanced based on claims.

Ythill tracking sirdan accomplishes 2 things. First, it proves he is a tracker. Secondly, If he is scum it prevents him from making a night kill since he will have to track Sirdan to prevent from getting caught.

Hoping to come back as Darox 3 for Cass?

If that were to happen, I might be inclined to "not believe" the mason claim just enough to get that all important 3rd Darox lynch off.

[Goatrevolt]

Ythill shouldn't be tracking me. I am confirmed, and Ythill tracking me again will not say anything about him either.

It will prove his tracker role.

I don't see how Ythill tracking me prevents him from doing a night kill? Can't you use your scum nk ability and your scum power role ability at the same time?

Usually, no. This can vary from mod to mod, but most of the time it's one action per night. Forcing Ythill to target you would mean he has to use his tracker role on you otherwise he will get caught. Generally, this would also prevent him from making a NK if he's scum. If we don't force him to target you, he can submit a NK. Then tomorrow he could claim to have tracked a player who didn't make a night action (myself, Kuribo, masons) and get away with it.

[Goatrevolt]

Someone is lying about their role claim and/or targets for night one.

What do you mean?

[Goatrevolt]

It all boils down to whether or not scum can both do an action and submit a NK.

If they cannot do both, then Ythill should most certainly track Sirdanilot. The reasons for this are that Simenon will be roleblocking Ecto. Ecto will be shooting Simenon. Ythill will be tracking Sirdanilot. If a NK happens, we would know it's not one of those 3 who made it. By doing this setup, we eliminate the scum NK, or at least drastically narrow down who could have made it.

If they can both submit an action and a NK, then I agree Ythill should target whomever he feels is best. Tracking Sirdanilot in this situation would do nothing more than confirm his ability (I already feel he is most likely telling the truth in that regard), and a scum NK wouldn't necessarily point to him or anyone else. He would be better off tracking someone else and hopefully catching someone do something they shouldn't.

[Goatrevolt]

As a final note, anyone who insists on suspecting me (ahem… Ecto) should do a ctrl-F search for my name in nuriens’ posts. The dude attacked me, buddied to me, claimed that my read cleared pacman in his mind, and generally treated me exactly how I would expect scum to treat town.

That's very true. From my recollection of nureins, I would not expect Simenon/Ythill to be a buddy of his. To a lesser extent nureins liked to buddy to Cass making me think Cass is town, and I still think the Cass/habit interaction speaks of them not being buddies (giving legitimacy to the masons being town). I think nureins liked to buddy to town and ignore his scum buddies.

Ecto, any chance you want to shoot yourself tonight?

[Goatrevolt]

Nicely done town. Well played Kuribo. I feel bad about flaking out for half the game, but my scumdar was so off that it was probably strictly a benefit to the town. At least I was right about Darox B!

[Goatrevolt]

Sirdanilot, you played a risky game lying about your night 1 protection.

Scum...why did pacman submit the kill and not nureins?

[Goatrevolt]

Out of curiosity, why did everyone just kind of accept the idea that I was town? I really expected going into day 3 to have to fight to stave off my lynch.

Darox, could you have also submitted a kill? If so, why didnt you?

The scum role PMs say they can either use their role or submit a kill, not both.