Open 815: Forest Fire Redux [Endgame]

[Fidget]

VOTE: Hectic

nyah

[Fidget]

I love your avatar, Lukewarm

VOTE: Fidget

Requesting a 1v1. Think the "nyah" could be setting up for a future discredit down the line

damn you're good

i accept

[Fidget]

I love your avatar, Lukewarm

VOTE: Fidget

Requesting a 1v1. Think the "nyah" could be setting up for a future discredit down the line

damn you're good

i accept

Go on then,

attack

i cant vote you any harder than i already am

[Fidget]

he's giving me a fighting chance, he knows i cant actually toxic 1v1

[Fidget]

did somebody mention

chara's folly

in june 2021

it's like everyone involved left a piece of themselves in that game and has never truly managed to fully move on

[Fidget]

I have townpings from all of Ydrasse/Prism/Infinity/Lukewarm, but those are the most active players other than myself so maybe I really am a noob

Ydrasse - Quick read drops while interacting in real-time is +town for her, the declaration of rolling town at the start, and her threats of tree haunting I all find towny

Infinity - The "Ydrasse might actually be scum" followed by the paragraph on her were towny

Prism - Lot of analysis and some meta. Good content but nothing I explicitly townrwad and that isn't fakeable for her. Tone is notably different but she says she's trying a different approach. Probably weakest townread on here

Lukewarm - Relaxed and easygoing attitude is +town

oh come now you know better than to townread all the early actives

That infinity post came across as good to me though.

Holding my judgment on ydrasse slightly but I thought her reaction to Infinity was probably plus town. When you take into account the previous iteration of this setup it's easy to townread Ydrasse for that but as I said I'm not yet convinced knowing what Ydrasse is capable of.

[Fidget]

He has good tone but I do not know anything about him.

[Fidget]

I'm under the impression he joined during marathon season though and some players have played with him there.

[Fidget]

Oh, I misinterpreted, he's simply only been scum in marathon games but he's had town games outside of there.

So his scum game is more or less an unknown factor. For me personally scum is easier in marathon because I'm decent at word salad / bullshitting to seem like I believe in what I'm talking about but I'm abysmal at playing a long, well thought out scumgame. I'm not sure his difficulties with scum in marathon will transfer to here because he might also find the experiences very different.

I say his tone is good because he seems comfortable, no awkward interactions from what I noticed. So I wonder if scum makes him feel anxious or not. That's the best I have right now.

Pedit/ I see, thank you.

[Fidget]

I think that last post by T3 was pretty reminiscent of looking at a post and feeling like the writer is scum but not really having a reason why other than gut, which is something I don't usually think to fake as scum. I usually give a reason. There's no obvious motivation for T3 to write that as scum, it's not even written about the player he's currently pushing.

[Fidget]

Prism and Hectic's battle pings me as though one of them is forcing it although that is still more or less a guess.

[Fidget]

I have an amazing scum game until proven other wise

I plan to evaluate you more or less as such actually cx

pedit/ I'll await your verdict eagerly then

[Fidget]

Prism and Hectic's battle pings me as though one of them is forcing it although that is still more or less a guess.

175 looks like Hectic thinking through the exchange /that had ended/ and coming back with honest questions. I'll be very impressed if it was fake. Especially if Prisms as much of a hound as he says.

That post doesn't really do anything for me. I don't think Hectic would be more likely to stop responding to Prism as scum, that's probably the opposite of what you'd want to do. Asking someone to narrow down they're voting you is just a reasonable question I'm not sure it pings either way.

Regarding my comment, the initial exchange comes off as very "You wouldn't townread me for X, because you know that I'm capable of X due to this game. Therefore, you're reading me in bad faith." which I have never found to be a good line of reasoning. It's simple enough for early game reads but always seems painfully forced to me (even if it's not from scum).

Hectic's clap back with (partly) BoP reasoning also seemed like a stretch which tipped the scales for me thinking maybe it's more likely one is scum doing what they think town would do rather than actual town.

Essentially I think it's overly combative when the reasons given seem stretchy. I will grant you that can be applied to the early game in general though.

I also kinda think you got better at reading me after Binding of Isaac mafia, and this push almost feels like a simulated version of your previous pushes on me (as town). Maybe I'm looking through OMGUS-tinted glasses right now, but I see the scenario where scum!Prism recognises town!Hectic always hard townreads her when she pushes him and wants to replicate that

Okay yeah w/ 190 this vote stays unless I have to compromise elsewhere

Like seriously, you're this confident despite knowing you've been horribly wrong on me for an extended period of time before?

Hmhmhm

I read it more carefully this time, I understand now that a portion of Hectic's argument is that Prism exhibits overblown confidence which is somewhat what I was getting at.

I'm going to sheep Hectic's read that Prism's push is a mimicry of her previous ones since that type of read has worked well in the past and if Hectic's town I could buy it. I don't feel as strongly that it's not TvT now, though.

VOTE: Prism

[Fidget]

I'm optimistic about T3 being town thus far.

I think I am leaning town T3 here, but now he has me paranoid by saying this

Lukewarm scumreading me this game is a huge scumtell.

In a - once he becomes aware of his scum meta tells, it is less useful - kind of way.

I interpreted that as him saying if you scumread him then you're scummy. Not that he's scum if you scumread him. Do I have this right?

[Fidget]

Infinity 324
Fidget
Lukewarm
Fidget
Child of Fairies
Ydrasse
JohnnyFarrar
T3
Prism

I looked over Lukewarm's marathon scum game in the meantime, and tone is a lot less confrontational/confidence than how he just interacted here

Pedit: I think T3 mentioning that is actually more scum-indicative than town-indicative, there's reason to hold that read close to the chest if he thinks there's actually any value to it

You're reading me twice. Also, is your read list town at the middle or town at the top?

People let preemptive reads like that out of the bag all the time, though. Suboptimal play isn't always scummy.

It's coming across like Lukewarm is more likely town here for how comfortable he is, then.

[Fidget]

I thought Fidget's reaction to the 1v1 was very questionable. He doesn't really stop to consider the reverse where I would be correctly reading Hectic. This really felt like trying to understand the minimum amount w/ the confidence argument to give a passable stance and immediately read no further. (While I am biased due to the vote on me, Hectic's side also has a lot more depth than that. I took issue with Child's framing of our argument as superficial because both of us have really been splitting hairs)

Lukewarm had by far the best reaction to the 1v1, not even close, and should be voted in no world. I think Johnny's reaction was fine. I'm mostly confused as to why Child didn't vote me, or if they were suggesting it was SvS or TvS w/ the going through the motions argument.

As much as I want to call Infinity a townlean for their interactions with me yesterday I think that'd be a mistake, and I've fought off that instinct enough to call her null.

Ime a she but no worries.

I think you're right, I didn't stop super hard to think about if the arguments were reasonable (by you both). I thought it more or less a waste of time because I think both of you would try to make reasonable sounding arguments in order to SR the other even if scum. What I'm more interested in is if you actually believe them to be as strongly AI as you seem to think.

That, and I lack context to really understand if:

Prism - Lot of analysis and some meta. Good content but nothing I explicitly townrwad and that isn't fakeable for her. Tone is notably different but she says she's trying a different approach. Probably weakest townread on here

I don't buy this.

You have clearly seen me fake the freewheeling, joking tone (in the vein of non-tilted Costello or me at my most lighthearted in Chara's Folly) in Flying Scumsman. You have seen this sort of intentionality and sharper focus repeatedly, dating back to your first experience with me on Replica, continuing through Folly, with flashes of it in Binding of Isaac.

I have repeatedly done things to sort players both actively and preemptively. I find it unlikely that these take a backseat in your mind in favor of tone.

VOTE: Prism

Mm, I don't think you disregard the differences in context as easily as that I think there's a clear difference between someone reacting from.being hard townread - where being jokey is a lot more natural, and being hard scumread and pressured, where you're in a comoeltley different mindset.

Attributing one to town and the other to scum, and not considering a NAI difference is soemthing I find unrealistic from the mighty Replica/Costello/Servant RULER

I also kinda think you got better at reading me after Binding of Isaac mafia, and this push almost feels like a simulated version of your previous pushes on me (as town). Maybe I'm looking through OMGUS-tinted glasses right now, but I see the scenario where scum!Prism recognises town!Hectic always hard townreads her when she pushes him and wants to replicate that

These are valid or not. My point that they are stretches when compared to your levels of confidence stands. That doesn't automatically make it SvT but I can certainly see one of you going through the motions rather than actually believing this.

[Fidget]

Did the Prism/Hectic 1v1 come across as obviously TvT to any of you all, by the way?

I know Johnny and T3 gave their takes.

[Fidget]

Apologies, Fidget uses she/her.

Oh I see that you saw, nevermind that other post. No big deal though.

Taking Chara's Folly into account and apparently other games where Prism SRs Hectic for metaing her -- it's possibly TvT. However, Hectic accusing her push of being a mimicry of previous ones strikes my interest since that's how he caught Elements in Chara's Folly. So more evaluation needed.

I will say that Johnny seemingly finding Hectic v. Prism obviously (or at least likely) TvT from their exchange was too easy, appearing somewhat like TMI to me. I also don't really get what criteria he used to judge Faerie and myself as "spectators" and therefore scummy? Whereas Ydrasse was considered absent and T3/Infy/Luke were genuine participants. Something I'd like to talk about when he gets back.

I gave my thoughts on some of his TvT reasoning already, but I think he only had the time to vote me before he had to leave.

[Fidget]

I hope fidget makes more towny posts because there was something else she did that was towny but I don't wanna go through her iso.

I tend to get townier with time and with more material to work with. If at some point down the line I feel I have a reasonable shot of having solved the game, it usually becomes clear that I am genuine.

Whereas as scum I would say the opposite occurs. As I mentioned earlier my scum playstyle is more akin to bullshitting and seeming surfance level towny which tends to break down late game when actual stances become important. I would also find it hard to replicate the passion that comes from actually having the answer to a game.

[Fidget]

Fairies was pretty nonchelant about hitting E-1 imo

I skimmed earlier today and it doesn't seem like Fairy was present for that portion of the game where they were E-1. Are you referring to their subsequent reaction afterwards when they only had around 1-2 votes at that point? Or am I mistaken?

[Fidget]

I am not sure what led people to town read hectic from the 1v1 with prism. looking at his iso, I feel like all of his responses would make sense as either alignment. I am still unsure what to think about his interaction with me either. So he is null for me.

That is more or less the sense I got here when talking to Johnny.

I am still of the opinion that scum!prism would not have gone so hard so early on hectic.

Gonna look more at this later but got to bounce. I would ask why but I'll need to look at your previous posts probably

[Fidget]

UNVOTE: as I see the E-1 but am not read.

Will check this later tonight.

[Fidget]

I'm not thinking a lot right now Ydrasse, I'm usually not so great at getting into the swing of things early. I do feel more or less like I'm making something out of nothing at times.

It is somewhat of surprise that I'm as townread as much as I am, this doesn't typically happen.

[Fidget]

I don't really know about opportunistic though, I'd imagine I'd just keep most everyone on the table without taking any stances as scum save for a couple townreads. I doubt I'd get much attention that way.

It is worth saying that while I can see you holding this last few pages are towny take as scum, when I am serious my tone tends to get universally townread, especially when I take the more personally removed approach of the last few pages, so I find it a natural read even if incorrect in process.

That post feels like prism is trying to get hectic to feel the warm fuzzies. Mutual townreads feel really good and scum want to manipulate town into feeling that. Me no like

I'm not sure I understand what Infinity is saying here, but I am also not sure if it's necessary for scum Infinity to force further pressure on Prism (which would, I assume, be the motivation behind an awkward scumread on Prism). Johnny and Prism already have a good amount of pressure and if Infinity's E-1 causes town Prism to die, that would reflect very poorly on her. Passive play beats all if town is pushing out town.

[Fidget]

What kind of monster would put town in the middle and scum on the edges? It's top -> bottom

You, probably.

Reading over your posts in the last few pages, I keep reading them while thinking you're town if that makes sense, I'm not sure if that's because I'm assuming you're probably town subconsciously and I'm wrong, or your recent posts are towny, but something something, I have no idea what I'm saying

I find Prism's recent content a lot townier essentially but I dunno if I should abandon previous reasons to scumread her

Putting aside the question of Hectic for a bit longer, my voting order would probably be Johnny, T3, Child.

Interesting that this is also my exact ordering right now after my catchup

Leaving Prism off because I simultaneously feel she's town and scum, but the number of times I nail scum early and then slowly move them up over the course of the game pains me, so this is the compromise

Now, fair warning, I do not quite know how to articulate this read. But in my only game with scum Hectic (trust fall), he did not have this level of depth in his faked reads. I am a little hesistant because that was somewhat of a less serious game, but still, this posts show a certain level of thinking that I think is less likely to be forged.

I recognize that Hectic may come across as trying to keep Prism on his plate even though he acknowledges she does towny things, but it doesn't really come across that way to me.

i think that without a good way to disengage off of prism she might've felt obligated to vote her again. if you have a gutread and someone isn't budging/doing anything that gives you reason to move away from it, you're in the hole. in theory you can say "i reread, changed my mind/saw this" but that looks more awkward.

Why vote Prism at all?

Oh I see that first vote wasn't E-1, I thought it was. My point about it doesn't make as much sense.

Gun to my head I probably see Infinity as.. more likely town but I see the point you're making now. I think you can certainly disengage if you want though, I'm not nearly as good feeling about Prism right now after reading today.

I see the second vote is E-1. I think it's possibly more likely you continue to vote Prism in spite of her getting townier because you think she's scum, I still don't think that's a great move for scum. Especially if the elim does go through.

[Fidget]

You would have died without that unvote? Yikes

You are correct in your deduction that I probably wouldn't have bothered to show up as scum though since I wasn't a driving force behind your elim and I wasn't present enough to weigh in, therefore I wouldn't be accountable for whatever logic is being used to kill you.

In reality I thought you were gut level towny on a skim that day and I obviously did not want you to die so quickly and the day to end even if I did think you were potentially scum.

[Fidget]

Sure being an object of focus is kinda "nyeh" but I also am unsure I've exhibited too much I couldn't do as scum. The aforementioned not just sitting on you is fair though. I'm more referring to Hectic, T3, whoever else having me as decent town early. I would kill to know why although it's partially my curiosity asking as I'm not certain it will be productive or not.

Prism I believe I've seen you play scum a couple other times, I remember reading a couple of your posts from a recent normal and a newbie I think and wondering how scum could possibly post those things. Even just skimming the post you linked here I'm wondering about what your approach would be here to control the narrative, and I need a lot of evidence that you're trying and failing to control the narrative to satisfactorily answer the question of "what the hell happened for scum!prism to get into this situation?" I wouldn't call it a townread yet, but

It feels like you're arguing why Prism could be scum rather than why Prism is scum. You've mentioned this before that Prism has a wide scumrange, and that's certainly fair, although exactly why you find Prism scummy has been unclear to me. You've countered reasons for townreading Prism, but what's your suspicion? I suppose it's a gut level read and hard to articulate. My point is just that it seems like you're countering "Prism couldn't be scum" logic more than addressing why Prism is scum in the first place.

I don't totally get the case against Prism.

Johhny, Faries, and Prism are my top 3 scum after a reread.

What changed in this 14 min game here?

Like what did you see in the reread that you missed the first time?

Another thing that draws me to townreading T3. If you're scum keeping track of reads, I feel like one of your most prevalent forged reads would be the very last post you made 10 min ago.

I get that opportunism is a thing but so blatant and unnecessary seems like and odd move. Prism didn't need more attackers, especially when my stance and Infinity's are still unclear or leaning suspecting.

This is a pretty dumb take by me if T3 really is scum and genuinely just isn't keeping track of their faked reads and posts whatever on the fly. It's possible, I just find it less likely compared to inconsistent town thoughts at the moment. Cause I see (and feel that myself) as town all the time.

Oh I missed it since you quoted a bunch of stuff to me

I said I was waiting for fidget to townpost but she hasn't yet :(

fair

yeah i’m just waiting on some good takes

Out of curiosity, do you either of you two know who I am? I don't respond to guesses or anything but some people just know.

On one hand, waiting for me to show my true colours is a tried and true tactic since there is a distinct difference when I turn on. On the other, it doesn't typically happen on the first day. I just found it moderately interesting you're both taking an interest with me this way.

[Fidget]

So who are you thinking about/wanting to look at right now? I imagine there are still thoughts about me swirling around, but curious as to where you go from here.

My feelings on Johnny are pretty much in stasis as I don't believe he's come back since then. He's.. probably my current guess. He got traction quite easily, but I can buy that from D1 in a game where he'd only have one partner. And there's been you as a counter, so whatever.

In my mind, Johnny TMIing you and Hectic as town is probably my favored view of the game, and his partner is just whoever. Don't really have an opinion there.

I could be falling into a trap of townreading the actives but I'm at least inclined to say I'm not, I felt decent about my Hectic lean and I don't really have an opinion on you outoide of gut but the threads relative ease towards killing you bolsters my confidence slightly.

Out of the rest of the cast I think Lukewarm and T3 are most town and I'm gray on Infinity, ydrasse, and Fairies. I had tiny points in favor of the first two earlier in the game but nothing that makes me feel fantastic.

[Fidget]

Actually yeah there was more with Infinity with regards to her approach to your wagon that seemed genuine to me though, forgot abt that yesterday. I'd probably say she's a bit less likely, I don't think her stances towards you were *quite* necessary. After a town elim on you that seems like a lot of stress for relatively little gain. Feel more likely it's town that believes you're scum but without a good reason why. Not certain though

[Fidget]

If Fairy and Johnny are my bottom players though that is really just less active players = scummier, sigh. Johnny suspicion still likely my best lead at the moment. Guess it falls apart if I'm reading you or Hectic wrong.

[Fidget]

Oh, I like that more then.

Did you happen to understand my tree jokes?

Afraid not

[Fidget]

Prism do you have scumgames where you outpost everyone significantly?

[Fidget]

(I say this because I've noticed a trend of Prism having extremely high WIM now and it was used as reasoning to townread her at least a couple of times)

[Fidget]

i don’t remember how to play as town anymore

Hahahaha same

Gut pings me as town. Can be faked but I am also considering that your tone on this page is distinctly different from how you played the last iteration of this setup, there I believe you were also demotivated but you did better (I believe) to keep up a guise of playing for a while. In particular there was the very strong take on your partner and I feel you had at least a decent amount of reads.

Overall this seems different to me from the way you played lower activity scum in a few other instances I can think of.

[Fidget]

Fuck it

VOTE: hectic

I concur I think Lukewarm is very likely town.

[Fidget]

(In particular I'm taking a guess that Lukewarm as scum would be more likely to stick within general PoE whereas here I feel it is more likely town!Lukewarm genuinely townpinged off of the lower activity and lesser read slots and finds himself left with few choices. It's something I think would be more difficult to fake and also a lot less intuitive to do)

Maybe that makes more sense in my head but it's not like this is a controversial take so, should be fine.

[Fidget]

To me, Hectic not knowing how to fake that kind of frustration/annoyance would be akin to meeting an MLB player and watching them not know how to hold the bat.

Man I feel like if someone knows you well being able to fake that convincingly is more akin to knowing how to hit a nasty curveball

Could be overestimating this though

Faking your emotions convincingly is quite hard, at least for me it is.

You can feel nervous when getting pressed as scum, but it's not uncontrollable or completely useless and you can absolutely selectively show/channel it for an intentional result

I guess my argument is that hectic would be unlikely to use that intentionally for fear of how it would be viewed by people other than you, but yeah maybe I'm just wrong about that.

Oh. That post. That was one hundred percent wine.

Also. Prism accused Hectic of sounding nervous first. Therefore I find it less likely that Hectic brought up the nervousness thing first as a sort of projection/distraction from his own nervousness. It was already on the table.

Overall, I don't think it means anything.

[Fidget]

Wrt child the fact that she's looking at your tone in the shorter post vs the longer posts closely enough to notice that they feel different stands out to me

That sounds like a good indicator of reading intently. Not entirely town exclusive but a good point for them sure.

child's read on me didn't really feel like it was something someone would have to dig into much, because to me it boils down to "when post actual thoughts, feels towny." i don't get an aura of solving and i'm a bit put off by child calling things interesting and like... eh. that's about how i feel about it. like, i guess i feel like child is a bit townier after it but it's just because they shared some thoughts about things which is like, at least they're thinking about this game and playing it a bit but it didn't move me to the point where i felt like they were actively solving, or engaging much. just some reads put out and then that's it.

In contrast that doesn't sound very deep. Maybe I read that post fully now and see.

Ydrasse - Null/Town Lean? A fair amount of her posts feel toneless to me, but when she makes posts with more than one line in them they feel sorta towny to me, as though she's actually trying to solve instead of looking like she is. Maybe there's a world where ydra/prism are both scum but that would largely depend on Prism flipping scum so it's not really much to talk about here.

It more or less sounds like "When Ydrasse puts the effort in, she sounds like she is genuinely solving". Which is a read yes! But I would like to know more of why Child thinks she is actually solving over trying to look like she is.

Looking at this, Child's townreads pretty much all say "Seems to lack an ulterior motive". Which, is a fair reason to townread someone sure, although it's also a little bland when unsubstantiated. It kind of looks like a readslist that I could fake probably decently easily (or produce as town, certainly). The townreads all share the "lacks motive" reason and then add one interesting point about the person's play that seems interesting.

The nulls on Ydrasse/I don't say much other than we're towny sometimes. Actually one of them seems interesting, and I'm more curious about it:

Fidget - Could honestly go either way? This is an interesting one. I find a lot of Fidget's posts fairly towny but the conclusions she comes to in some of them feel less than genuine, such as voting Prism for her 1v1 with Hectic and then later asking if it felt "Obviously TvT" to anybody else. Her sorta-tunnel on Lukewarm is pretty interesting since it's an angle nobody else seems to have, but it could be coming from either alignment for different reasons so she's pretty null for me.

What about voting Prism and asking if the interaction felt "obviously TvT" to anyone seems.. disingenuous to you? I ask because this is seems like a unique possibly genuine thought but I am unclear on what you mean.

Also as an aside, what tunnel on Lukewarm are you talking about?

[Fidget]

T3/Johnny - Scumlean both for similar reasons, high vote count to low content ratio. There's very little in T3's iso that isn't just a vote or an agreement with whatever the page consensus is, which also leads to a fair amount of flipflopping ("I don't totally get the case on Prism > my top 3 scum are Johnny Child Prism > My gut is telling me Prism is town" in 3 posts in a row in his iso is certainly something). T3 reads opportunistic scum to me, but since everybody else seems to be content to have him as a backburner read right now I don't see much of an incentive to try and push on him.

same with Johnny to a lesser degree because he's pretty much not here right now and I'd rather wait for him to come back or the slot to be force replaced so we can properly sort him rather than quickelimming, which helps nobody but scum as it denies town any sort of possible information. There just isn't really much of anything to say about him until he comes back, so here we are.

Prism - Scumlean. This isn't meant to be a post about Prism so I'll keep it short but aside from what I've already said I think the threat to self-hammer, followed by bringing up a game where she did self-hammer as town to clear herself, and then following that by saying she won't self-hammer here makes me feel like she's got a role that can't and she's just trying to bluff to take the heat off of her.

Oh, to conclude, I feel that reading "Votes often and has a low amount of content" as "opportunistic" is a bit underwhelming. Although we can talk about it. I don't think T3's obvious inconsistency with regards to the "I don't totally get the case on Prism > my top 3 scum are Johnny Child Prism > My gut is telling me Prism is town" is scum indicative at all. If you want to call it opportunistic, you've got to establish the scum motivation for making those posts.

I'm not so sure there is one, but you know town can be wildly inconsistent. Calling it "opportunistic" and calling it a day feels like a disservice.

Johnny I pretty much agree though. Not enough.

Not so sure on the Prism logic, I guess I'm not familiar with that part of the game enough though. I feel like that's likely a pretty small portion of her play to get your strongest scumread off of, though.

[Fidget]

re: Ydra, in her longer posts she makes a pretty legitimate effort to talk her thoughts out, explain where she's at, and engage with the thread from multiple viewpoints. She sticks to her points when questioned, but not in a confrontational way that makes me think she's saying them in an expectation to be challenged and work it out as opposed to trying to control the narrative towards or away from people.

As an aside, I kinda want to bring up 526 and 531. 526 and the buildup to it feel like a a genuine push on me, making a genuine effort to engage with infinity and prism to see where they're at and debate about me, but then 531 recontextualises it as a sort-of vanity vote because she /wants/ to be right but admits she doesn't really have much?

As for the aside, maybe "tunnel" wasn't entirely the right word. I was referring to how you were the only player who didn't seem to fully tr lukewarm right off the bat and instead made an effort to push him and engage with him about things. In my head this could come from either town (wants to properly sort a slot everyone else has written as town to avoid town being played) or scum (wants to create some confusion on a slot that people are tring), so I wrote it off as interesting, but not alignment indicative on its own.

This is fabulous, thank you.

What about voting Prism and asking if the interaction felt "obviously TvT" to anyone seems.. disingenuous to you? I ask because this is seems like a unique possibly genuine thought but I am unclear on what you mean.

Still curious what you meant by this.

I think for T3 being opportunistic, looking at his iso in the context of the game and where each post is, to me a majority of his contribution to the game has been coming in, jumping on whichever not-Prism wagon has the most steam behind it, and stating something somebody else stated recently. His most original line of thinking would be saying Prism isn't scum when her wagon was near its highest, but even then that came after Ydra had already stepped in and Infinity unvoted. In context a lot of his iso reads to me like him throwing votes at whoever's got momentum to see what sticks, hence opportunistic. He's not doing anything to sort, just advance wagons on people whenever he can.

As for the three posts I highlighted earlier, it's important to note they were all within 10 posts of eachother. He posts to be nay-Prism elim, and then his very next post has him put her in his top 3 scum anyways. When he's called out on this, he backpedals the second statement with no explanation and only when it came up again later did he respond and actually try to explain himself. I'd argue T3's most recent post is the most we've gotten out of him at all in terms of thoughts on the game, and even then it's a single sentence.

How are you differentiating between scum T3 being lazy versus town T3 just going with whatever his first thought is upon reading without bothering to explain much?

For me, the sequence of three posts on Prism you mentioned seemed to suggest not scum actually. Scum tends to keep track of their reads -- doing something such as calling Prism town then after 10 minutes deciding Prism is in your PoE seems like you blatantly don't care how your reads appear. So we saw the same thing, different conclusions. I felt that doing that as an opportunistic strategy makes little sense when T3's vote is not that weighty (he isn't deciding who gets elimed really) and it clearly reflects poorly on him to switch to a town miselim without any reasoning or previous SR. So why do it?

I guess if T3 actually plays scum this way then it's more probable. It came across like easy to pick at town behaviour to me, though.

I don't totally get the case against Prism.

Johhny, Faries, and Prism are my top 3 scum after a reread.

What changed in this 14 min game here?

Like what did you see in the reread that you missed the first time?

Mainly the not engaging properly with Infinity pinged me. My gut is telling me Prism is town though.

The backpedal you mention is understandable though. I think that comes across as pretty bad and doesn't really seem very sensical. Almost comes across like he personally thinks Prism is town and yet felt obligated to scumread her in the other post for some reason. So I can see what you mean there.

And as for Prism, I quite literally say in the post you're quoting that I'm going to keep it short because it's not a post about Prism, and I even directly say "aside from what I've already said" at the start. I'd already made various posts on Prism and why I found her actions scummy and didn't feel the need to reiterate myself, so I only added what had happened since my most recent post about Prism, which was mostly her tilting and threatening to self-hammer.

Makes sense. I assumed you were summarizing in that post but I misinterpreted.

I get the sense that Fairy's reads are pretty well thought out, now, actually. Shame on me for focusing on the reads list.

[Fidget]

I just feel like everyone is TRing so many people, that it worries me. Currently looking back over everyone' most recently stated scum reads to get a better feel

Not a lot to go off of and everyone's got pretty good tone and either good solvy attitudes or comes across as town for other reasons.

If Johnny seems towny upon return all hell breaks loose I think.

It just feels like the scum team is happy with how the reads are falling, and don't feel the need to stir the pot - or they are both on vacation.

As Infinity said, imagine what happens if Johnny is scum with one partner out of us eight versus if there's two scum and Johnny as town. They are highly likely to be the same scenario since it's still overwhelmingly town voices and Johnny would only have one benefactor if he is scum.

With regards to my scumreads, I'm very undecided as I can see conceivable town points for most every player. It's easy to do that day one. If I played a game where I had to bet on players being town in order of confidence, I'd probably go..

Luke
-
Infinity -> Prism -> T3
-
Child -> Hectic -> Ydrasse
-
Johnny

It's just wrong though. That is essentially the same order as activity. Well, that's an exaggeration I suppose. It's not. However, the difference in my feelings between the two middle tiers is incredibly fuzzy and that's an issue.

[Fidget]

I reread the whole thing. Some changes I'd probably make

Lukewarm
Infinity
-
Prism
-
Hectic/T3/Child
-
Ydrasse
Johnny

The main thing is I felt Infinity came across as genuine. Felt better about Prism. Hectic is a mix of my one ping earlier and gamestate but I am admittedly not for sure. I generally really liked Infinity and Prism on another go through. I think Child was better than I thought. T3 I am a bit more afraid I'm jestering on but the fact he gets miselimmed a lot I feel does lend some credence to my read at least. Ydrasse I liked her tone early game (like here n here in my memory), it's good. But her pushes/reads themselves (like on me, Child, and Infinity) I would liken closer to a series of contract killings whereas say Infinity's felt more from the heart to me.

That is going to be tricky to explain if I keep thinking that in the future. It makes sense in my head.

Also I liked Child on a reread (actually understanding them outside of the readslist) and also their recent posts which is restricting my pool a touch.

[Fidget]

My apologies for the replacement. Nicely done though, all of you. I don't envy scum's spot this game.