Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move:e4

Just to let you all know, I'm a horribly inconsistent chess player. I've drawn admirably against high-rated players and lost embarrassingly to former junior state runner-ups with marijuana abuse issues.

/confirm

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I don't know a lot about Chess, but c5 is the typical opening for the Sicilian, one of the most played black openings of the last hundred years. There are a lot of variations after c5, but the basic opening is considered strong.

I would challenge black for d4, so Nf3 is my preferred move, with c3 as a secondary possibility to set up 3. d4. Either way it's not to our benefit to play Bc4, because it gives us little board control, blocks our development on the queen side, and will probably have to be pulled back later anyway. All in all, I think that Bc4 is giving black a free move.

I'm going to tentatively

Move:Nf3

, but I might support c3 or Nc3 if we really want to play a more closed game.

I'm gonna have to

FoS:Pesco47

as well, for saying that c5 is a "silly move" and then providing one of the more common responses to it. I don't think that's a clear scum move... anyone could have thought up Nc3, especially someone who likes knight play... but at this point in the game I want to be as unambiguous as possible about my thoughts.

Let me know what you think about moves.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

lol, I didn't see that there was a second page. Sorry to parrot indigo.

I definitely think we should

not

move Bc4... it's a super-weak move.

Lawrencelot: in chess, the point of the early going is generally to control the middle four squares of the board... a Bc4 doesn't really help us do that without something to support us. We're sticking that bishop out there without any support, and moreover impeding our own ability to develop queen side.

In response to your concerns about 2. ... Qa5, I think that black would be essentially wasting a move to do that. 3. c3 would make that a wasted move. And besides, what does black do after that?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Gonna just have to say "see goat's post" for the rest of the thread, I think.

I also sense possible distancing between Sens and Pesco, but that's so highly dependent upon a weak read that it's probably just my sinuses. And tangental.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Just piping in to say something I thought I had said already--I agree with whoever said that we should probably play a more defensive game than not... it will be easier to play that together than an aggressive one.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The thing is, you can't really discuss future plans like this so unless someone here knows how I normally play off by heart (you've never even versed me or seen me before) then it's gonna be tricky to win with the CHESS side of things.

OTOH, our town can't really even get together to make the right move, so scum doesn't necessarily have to. We'll see.

I also suspect that, yes, it will be difficult for the town to win via chess, and we will have to end up scumhunting by determining who has been trying to mislead us or lead us into a trap.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Yawn.

move:g3

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If we're going to play closed Sicilian, we might as well do it right.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Just to be clear, Nf3 and f4 are both fairly serviceable moves. I prefer f4 of the two, as it is more aggressive... but I thought that there was a fairly compelling argument for a careful, defensive game and g3 sets that up.

g3 sets up the fianchetto for more control of the center and typically leads to a much more closed formation.

If we want to attack, I like f4... although I know that there are supposedly some strong counters to that line, and mafia may be trending us that way because they are familiar with them. For one, I am not terribly familiar with them. Just know that if 3. f4 ... we might have to 4. g3 anyway depending on how black plays it.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Speedmove! I think it's done already, but

move: Nf3

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move: Qe2+

I get the sense that we should prefer black plays 6. ... Qe7, but I am content seeing that we have options for 6. ... Be7 as well.

This is my weakest phase of the game, the early-mid, so I may follow more than lead.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move: d4

vote: Gorrad

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I don't like Nd4 because it reduces our power in the center, rather than bolstering it. I would think in such an open setup, taking control of the center is even more essential than usual. d4 helps in this goal.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I have problems with both of these plans, but I have even more of a problem with Qc4 than with Ng5. Playing Qc4 is essentially either throwing our queen away or wasting multiple moves.

I will post more extensively on this later. I want to put a lot of thought into this move, so I think I should post in my other games first.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Okay, I'm a moron. I think Qc4 is a good move. Let me map out some more sequences before I move.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ok, I'm a moron again. That move sucks.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Can we not get too close to making a move? I'm spending a lot of time on this right now and I want to weigh in at some point... I'm just still running scenarios.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

For a time, I considered 10. Ne5, but I think that move is a little premature.

I don't see how playing the fianchetto now would be to our detriment. In fact, I think that playing it now would set us up for a relatively quick victory.

However, I worry that I have been missing some possible attack by black, so if you can think of a line of attack by black that could seriously threaten us within the next three moves, please point it out so we can take that into consideration.

Sorry for the lack of grand statements and discussion; I underestimated many things this week.

However, I would

move: g3

at this juncture, with the possibility to move

Ne5

now. However, I see much more enticing lines in our future than 10. Ne5, which is essentially asking black to make a mistake rather than pressing our advantage in a meaningful way.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I don't like Nh4. It moves our knight to the edge of the board only enough to threaten a pawn that can easily be protected by 10. Nh4 g6. We lose a point of power in the center, as well as putting a knight in the path of the very bishop that is unpinned by Ne5. I think we move 10. g3 now, and either play 11. g2 or 11. h4 next turn depending upon the board situation. All 10. ... Ne5 really does is place a black knight on a protected square in the center... which is scary, I'll grant you, but not so scary because he has no forks for us.

At this point I think that black is effectively behind in development due to its current lack of queen play. And in all actuality, I don't think that Ne5 is an inevitability. 10. ... d6 is probably a better move for black in the long run. I shouldn't say that, but I'm playing under the assumption that mafia knows what they are doing.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Maybe you can explain why you're still voting Qc4.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

All Qc4 will do is essentially plunge the game into mediocre suicide-chess. I'm not really that inspired by suicide-chess.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What

don't

you like about playing the king-side fianchetto at this stage of the game? Is it too laid back?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What is a fianchetto? Qc4 looks good to me after Indigo's post, I'll refrain from voting so The CS can explain his move (sorry if you already did, but I need to hear why it's better than Qc4).

Sorry, I like trying to seem like I know things at times. A fianchetto is where you move the knight's pawn one space forward and move the bishop onto the long diagonal. This gives us power in the middle, piece development, and the chance to castle ourselves.

So essentially: 10. g3 ... 11. Bg2. I don't see anything black can set up in two moves that essentially destabilizes our position. I would like to solidify it before we start taking pieces. As it is, the most likely line of Qc4 is a series of reciprocal captures ending in no clear advantage for either side.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What I see as the two most likely lines of 10. Qc4:

10. Qc4 d5
11. Qb5+ Bd7
11. Qxb7 Qb8

And then what have we accomplished? In order to even make our queen relevant again we have to move Qa6 first, which is a wasted move. Or we could queen trade, if you think going up a pawn is a fair trade for letting black develop while our position stagnates.

10. Qc5 d5
11. Qb5+ Qd7
12. Ne5

Which waS suggested as a positive line by someone, but I don't see it ending well for us.

12. Ne5 Qxb5
13. Bxb5+ Bd7

At which point we could play suicide chess, as I surmised might happen.

14. Bxd7 Nxd7

And the optional

15. Nxd7

For extra TCS wrist-slashing goodness?

Or...

14. Bc4

Oh, no, wait, they played 10. ... d5. So we move Bxb5+, or run the hell away.

How else does this line end? Am I just expecting the most moronic? What do you guys think, if you're thinking at all?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I understand your line of thinking, even if I disagree with it. Besides that rank is doubled anyway... I just don't see the marginal advantage to be gained in losing our queen (who is developed right now, as opposed to the black queen), and allowing black to develop both a rook and a bishop in exchange for a doubled pawn.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

My philosophy is borne from many games with a friend obsessed with material advantage at the cost of position. Oftentimes in the mid to late-mid game I would see him give up power in the center to gain a pawn, and it was the death of him because I refused to play suicide chess in the late-mid, choosing to strangle him with points of power instead.

Maybe with two grandmasters material advantage makes all of the difference... but among us mortals I think we should consider other aspects of the game.

And if Qc4 is inevitable, I'm sure we can still win. I don't think it's a game breaker for us. I just disagree with the mob on this one.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

3) it broke one of the cardinal rules of chess -- we brought the queen out too early

Yeah, you're so right that that's a hard-fast rule that can never be broken. I mean, imagine how dumb black would have to be to move the Queen in the following scenario:
*chess tag removed*1. f4 e5
2. g4 Qh4*/chess tag removed*

I'm pretty sure fool's mate fails as an exception to how you should properly play chess.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

That was poorly worded. I'm pretty sure you can't use fool's mate to demonstrate that a general rule of playing good chess is wrong... because no one even remotely mediocre is going to play that opening for white.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

That was poorly worded. I'm pretty sure you can't use fool's mate to demonstrate that a general rule of playing good chess is wrong... because no one even remotely mediocre is going to play that opening for white.

Fine. What about 1. e4 e5 2. bc4 bc5 3. qh5 Nf6 4. Qxf7#

Not to beat a dead horse, but this also counts as fools mate. Regardless, e4, Bc4, Qf3 (not Qh5) is a valid opening with wild tactical possibilities that I've used effectively in the past. Point is, in this case the opening is designed to to use the queen as a main weapon for quick tactical strikes (primarily the constant mate on f7) and general disarray. In the opening the town has chosen (and most openings in general), the queen is intended to be developed after castling and placing most/all minor pieces into more productive squares (ie.. during the middle game).

"Scholar's Mate," I was told as a young 'un.

But this is a distraction.

Is there a reason that we're choosing to play hyperaggressive? Just in general, almost everyone seems to be in tune with shoving our queen out there without the benefit of careful development.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Just checking in to say that I'm still not swayed by these arguments.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Currently, I see that Qe5 forces us into a disadvantage. Qc4 would put pressure on their king, which would force them to make some decisive moves that could decide the game in our favour. No offence, TCN, but g3 is far too defensive and we are simply inviting trouble over.

See, my only problem is that no one has yet to produce a single tactical reason why g3 isn't good. Not a single line of moves. Nothing. So I don't see how so many of us have come to the conclusion that it's obviously bad.

Seriously. Show me why it doesn't work. Show me, specifically, the trouble 10. g3 invites over. I would love to be convinced. I've been asking to be convinced, for pages. No one has bit. Why, I can't say.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Why do all of you seem to be missing the damn point? 10. g3 is not about protecting the f4 pawn. It's about allowing us to play Bg2, giving us more control of the center of the board. We are terribly underdeveloped. Moving the queen for the next few moves while black develops just doesn't strike me as a great plan.

That's about what I have to say, other than

fos:veerus

.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Here as well. I had a reason that I didn't like Qc4, so I will probably dig it up and post later.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Yawn.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Which was my point all along... but no one cares.

At least this will get interesting when we have to start lynching people.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move:d5

Our goal this move is to prevent 11. ...d5, which makes our last move worth even less. If black moves 11. d5 b5, then now the queen can move to d4, preserving our ability to develop the bishop. And then black will castle at 12, of course. But I hate to say I told you so.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Hm, I didn't think about this move for black, and I also forgot what we were doing. But I don't like d5. What if we do something else, and respond to b5/d5 by moving our queen to b3, and try to keep preventing black from castling? I don't know what this 'something else' would be though.

Allowing black to move d5 essentially defeats the purpose of moving Qc4.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

11. Qb3 d5

What's your 12., Lawrencelot?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

We wouldn't play Qb3 in response to d5...b5.

11. d5 ... b5
12. Qd4

That threatens d6, which would be really strong.

I do agree with veerus about this. However, I would like to propose that we move to Bd3. It applies pressure on the f5 pawn. Black would most likely play d6 to get rid of the Queen, or d5 to complicate matters, but I see ways for us to win on either route.

move: Bd3

11. Bd3 ... d5
12. Qb3 ... b5

Our queen has nowhere to go. Our bishop has nowhere to go, and black has a pretty dominating board presence.

If you guys would rather, Qxf5 is a move to consider, but to me, it's too direct.

Qxf5 isn't an available move.

-----

Here's how I see it:

1. We can play a move to develop our white squared bishop. Bd3 fails for the reasons I mentioned above (basically, it holes up our queen at b3 with no options for escape). Bd2 is better, but we still look rough after black plays d5.

2. A better option is Bd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, develops the other bishop, threatens the b4 pawn, and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.

3. There is also d5, which is currently my top pick. It's an attacking move (I don't consider Bd3 to be attacking, as d5 shuts it down entirely) that keeps black having to respond to our attacks rather than initiate ones of their own. Black's obvious response of b5 gets met with Qd4, which continues to threaten black with the powerful d6.

There is truth in this post... please move accordingly.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If I'm right, no one commented on my latest post. 11. Qb3 d5 12. Qa4

How about that one?

11. Qb3 d5 12. Qa4? to me. Qa4 brings Bd7 to defend the King, and instantly, Black is on the offensive.

Or 11. Qb3 d5 12. Qa4 b5, and our queen has to take back a move.

Trying to probe around with our queen when we have no supporting structure is a

bad plan

. I have repeatedly said this. We need to stabilize her position so that we can get more pieces into play, and do it while not sacrificing board position. 11. d5 is our best move.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I don't see the merit of Be2?

It's a continuation move after Qc4. We develop our bishop and castle king-side when possible.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Be2
*/chess tag removed*
Then what, ...b5 or ...d5 are looming. And the bishop is still not developed until it moves to Bd3 or we move the knight away, or the queen. Maybe it's just because I think too short term, but I still don't see the merit of this move, other than the castling at kingside but that hardly warrants a move if there's no other merit.

A

big

part of why we moved 10. Qc4 is to move our bishop out so we are able to castle. Since our queen is not in any danger, there's absolutely no reason not to continue with our original plan while still delaying black castling. In response to ...b5 or ...d5, we would simply move Qd3 and be able to castle at will after that. Bottom line is that we need to castle to get our king to safety and castling queenside is a suicide due to the open c-file and pawn on b4.

Chess is not a game of "right now." Whoever can see further into the future, and can make the correct decisions, wins. We shouldn't pursue a dumb line just because it's "what we were planning to do." Qc4 was a

dumb

move in the first place, and I think we should all realize and accept that now before we move forward.

Castling is not our first priority here. Minimizing the damage of having our queen twisting in the wind is.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Just a subtle hint:

The mod put up the move count three posts above mine.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The queen is under attack as of next move.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is this what you are hoping for?

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Qb3 d5
12. Bd3 O-O
13. O-O
*/chess tag removed*

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I

just

figured out the [/chess] command.... gg.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I think if we play this game type again (and I would certainly love to), it would be interesting to name a "mayor" for each day, a person that listens to all advice and eventually decides the move themselves... but anyway, I just think that I want more control.

*chess tag removed*1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 d5
12. Qb3 O-O
13. O-O-O
*/chess tag removed*

Compared to the previous line I posted, this is much better. Although I still disagree with the focus on castling right now... black still doesn't have an obvious line of attack at this point, due to restrictive pawns at b4 and f5. This structure is beginning to look a lot like a draw to me. Anyways, I think the O-O-O is a stronger choice than the O-O, but if black's line of attack is likely to move queen side, then we shouldn't be so hasty.

But please... I

implore

you who are not mafia to consider moving 11. d5. This is a move

that will

work

. I don't want to go over all of the lines because I'm tired of giving black our next five moves.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The b4 pawn can be easily protected by a5 or Qb6. However, for the purposes of development, I suppose I could get behind Bd2 as long as we agree that castling queen-side is a BAD BAD idea and the f1 bishop will need to be developed sooner than later.

TCS, you're really tickling my spider sense right now. You propose risky and complicated moves and suicidal castling ideas. You don't want to go over lines because you know they're unneccesarily complicated and unsound. And what's with the draw talk?

vote:veerus

I haven't proposed a single castling idea. That was me pointing out that the castle-first crowd is ignorant. I want to move to d5... this is not a complicated move, and will in most lines put us ahead a piece when we move d6... so forgive me if I don't want to "give it all away." People pretty much spelled out over and over again yesterday how bad it was to move the queen out, and we did it anyway, and scum took advantage. I'm going to point out strategy reasons and compelling lines that I think make other moves a bad plan... but I won't pursue too many lines in-depth at this point because it helps the scum more than the town.

The scum has the ability to make surprise moves... we can't. We cannot surprise the scum, because of the nature of discussion and debate. We can only make fundamentally sound moves. In Bd2, we are not making the fundamentally sound move, and we have not tried to make the fundamentally sound move the last couple of days, despite my insistence upon doing so.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I suppose those two things sounded somewhat contradictory... but there's a difference between trying to surprise scum with an attack and not wanting to give away five moves ahead in a particular line.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Is our queen under attack? -

no

. So why is it bad that our queen is where it is? It's safe with no chance of getting trapped and it's stopping black from castling.

If we move d5, black will answer with d6 and then our pawn will be LOST. Do YOU want to be down a pawn and in an inferior position?.. apparently so, if you're SCUM. And the fact that you're driving so hard at that makes me think that you ARE scum. You voting me for essentially wanting to keep our king SAFE is doubly so.

I know this is an omgus vote, but because you beat me to it by voting me with your next scummy post shouldn't stop me from doing what I wanted to do last post --

vote: TCS

12. Qxb4

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Well, ok, d6 itself wouldn't neccesarily play out right away, but the point is that the pawn would be in no-man's land. For example, the bishop could occupy the d6 square just as easily. Or this:

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qb3 Bb7
*/chess tag removed*
Then how do you save it?

The point is.. black wouldn't let us get the pawn to d6, and on d5, the pawn would block the diagonal to where the king would be if black castled and we wouldn't be able to unblock it. And also, the pawn on d5 would be at the mercy of black after a similar sequence of moves to those shown above. It also opens up the a7-g1 diagonal for black making our castling options on the king-side look as dreary as those on the queen-side. We can not let that pawn go and lose it. If we do, we will forfeit whatever presense we have in the center of the board and lose the game.

It is a fundamental rule of chess that the king is safer when it's castled and not when it's in the middle of the board. The fact that you are trying to suggest everything BUT trying to get the king to safety tells me that you may have alterior motives.

12. Qd4

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ready to agree with me yet?

Do try to consider our

best

options when exploring lines.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What does Bd2 do for us?

...?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Be2 is completely dumb, accomplishes nothing.
d5 is actually counter-productive, crippling our Queen.

move: Bd2

How doe d5 cripple the Queen?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I would love to be scum right now, to know if this town is imploding due to their influence or all on its own.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Oh God. I found a break in my list of possible moves for Bd2 that may not be good for White. For now,

unmove

while I consider other moves.

If it was strong enough to convince you, please post it so these other people will unvote too.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

People... we cannot plan eight moves ahead. Black can. What move gives us the best position? Stop thinking in terms of plans and start thinking in terms of board position, points of power, and the center... in other words, we need to play hypermodern.

I'm beginning to think, given the discussion so far, that it's impossible for white to win in this format, and that sooner or later we're going to be obligated to lynch the people that seemed to lead us away from good moves. So with that in mind, I'm going to start rereading and hunting... because right now I think White is circling the drain.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I hope black kills someone. We have too much committee and not enough chess right now imo.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I hope black kills someone. We have too much committee and not enough chess right now imo.

If Black kills someone, we lose our only advantage, the number of eyes we have. And if we mislynch, then Black has even more say in our moves.

Feh. Black doesn't have to force a bad move, just distract us, and the damage is done.

This is chess... if mafia is binary, scum and not-scum, chess is base-12 algebra.

Thin the herd I say.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Let's play a game. This game is called, "I Rape Your Line, You Rape Mine." I was going to call it "Whose Line is it Anyway?" Thank Ganesh good sense prevailed.

I think it will inspire some discussion. That or I can call all of you names. Nasty, nasty names, until you either acknowledge my points or lynch me.

The rules of the game are this. I will move against Bd2 and Be2. You will move against d5. We will continue this until I am satisfied that you realize you are fucking us, or I get what the hell you all hope to gain by these moves.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Be2 d5 */chess tag removed*

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Bd2 d5*/chess tag removed*

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Am I missing something. 11...Qa5 12. b3 allows us to fianchetto our Bishop, and locks in their Queen behind the Pawn.

As much as you people seem to think otherwise, we NEED to devellop our Bishops, then castle AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

12...Nxd5 and we lose the pawn.

I knew there was a reason why d5 was bad (besides the d5 hanging there). Qa5 kills that idea sooner than b5, Bb7...

I still say Be2, then we castle, then we think about our attacking options with the king safe. Sensfan, fianchetto isn't beneficial to us right now. Black diagonal is too clogged up by our own pieces (queen would lose a possible open square with the pawn on b3) and white diagonal would weaken the king-side to the point where castling may no longer be safe.

Also, I think I've seen enough of Pesco's non-commital illogical explanations. In that position, the queen has more than 2 weak squares to land on, and wide open spaces never look like a bad end. Plus we're about equally developed and the position is closer to = instead of -/+. They give us more room to maneuver and make the right tactical decision.

unvote; vote: Pesco47

We are in a bad enough position where no move is a great move and most lead to worse positions. Pretty sure us beginning to lose the game was the agreed point at which we would start lynching.

qft

[The Central Scrutinizer]

We have a semi-positive line for after 11. d5... I STILL don't see how we're not fucked by 11. ...d5 after any other move. If someone would please just explain to me how 11. ...d5 does not screw us over after another move, I will gladly change my vote to avoid a no-move.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

unmove, move: Bd2

I guess. Sigh.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

i think the people who have been the least vocal in the discussion should give up the vote...

those being sirdanilot, sensfan, pesco, tcs

then after today's move, we re-evaluate if those with more votes are leading us down the right path

speaking of which..

mod: we need a replacement for pesco.. during the last night, he posted in his other games that he had a death in the family and requested replacement

Obviously I'm not on board with that.

I'm going to move Qb3, as I don't see any reason to give up power in the center. I'm going to stick with my M.O. throughout this game, whether or not I never get listened to.

move: Qb3

[The Central Scrutinizer]

unmove, move: Qd3

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Please replace me.

Sorry. I really want to play in this game, but my real life schedule is too cluttered to play mafia with the level of focus I'd like to have.

I apologize for any damage I may have done up to this point.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Checking in to see if I was replaced or not... the first post is unclear.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Will be more than happy to vote once someone explains why 17. Kxd2 is superior to 17. Nxd2

[The Central Scrutinizer]

To me, there are no merits to Nxd2 when Kxd2 is available which provides the benefits stated above. Nxd2 takes away a powerful piece from the middle of the board, not to mention that after that, the only square that knight can go to after the capture is right back to f3 which is an unneccesary loss of tempo.

I agree with this, but I am generally uncomfortable with quick-anythings.

Because at this point it's almost certain that scum is on this... but apparently multiple townies too?

Bah.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

18. Bd3 Bxf3
19. Qxf3

[The Central Scrutinizer]

That's impossible with the bishop on d3 blocking the queen.

You're right. Another reason not to move the bishop.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I like our queen where she is. A move to e3 doesn't seem advantageous to me.

Move: Re1

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I need to think about this position some more. I've been doing lines (not the fun kind) in my brain for a while and I still can't decide what to do.

We have far more options than several of you are assuming, I think. I'm not convinced Qe3 is optimal, obviously.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I'm sorry. I'm here, but I can't decide what move is best. I think I made a mistake on the last move and now I'm can't figure out how to fix it.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move: Qe3

if the game doesn't die.

I honestly

do

want this to continue, I think that the combination of having few good moves and the length of the game are just killing our willingness to continue.

I think this game idea is really, really great, and I hate to see it die, but I understand why. I could definitely see it working better with a few tweaks.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Our pawn structure on the King's side is blown anyway.

move: gxf4

Also

vote:Indigo Heron

[The Central Scrutinizer]

This is a no-brainer, folks. Just look at the damn board.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

fxg4 was like mate in four, white wins.

You guys are idiots.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

*If they had played 21. fxg4 Bd6.

I'm just flabbergasted that you quickmoved while I was away.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move: Qxd3

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move: Re6

Is there seriously a debate here? Ng5 is premature and gxf4 is now a waste of time.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

We have enough lines to consider than to waste time on lines that might have happened. This is retarded. Please look to the board we have now rather than the one we might have had.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

unmove, move: g4

. I'm doubting myself here. I think the most attractive thing about 23. g4 is that black has no obvious line of attack afterwards.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. g4

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Wait. I remember why I moved Re6.

I should really doubt myself less.

unmove, move: Re6

So I understand why g4 is attractive... there isn't a lot black can do in that position. But several plausible lines of 23. Re6... end in mate or significant material advantage.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Rook to E-6, Queen to D7, we waste a move retreating to save the rook.

Move: Pawn to G4

.

If black makes 23. Re6 Qd7 he mates himself.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

You're not thinking nearly aggressively enough. This is the endgame.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I know too well I've got practically no credibility in terms of analysis, but I just don't see a point to Re6. Whereas g4 I can see leading to a kingside pawn attack, plus it keeps the f-rank from being opened, which also keeps the bishop penned.

I don't want to explore all of the lines, because I'm expecting black to make a mistake in the next couple of moves. That being said, what is your countermove to Re6?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Just trying to tell if you're seeing something I'm not. Should you come out with a line I've considered, I'd say so. Should you come out with a line I hadn't we'd be better off.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

There are several lines that lead to a draw, Ng5 is by no means a sure thing.

But it's not bad and if I can't think of a reason not to I'll move in the next 48 hours.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move: Ng5

[The Central Scrutinizer]

initial thought : h4

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I love the move at first blush, but I haven't really trusted AA or veerus for a while now. I need to look it over more thoroughly before voting.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move: Qd3

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Here, thinking not out loud.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Movecount, then I decide.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I just want to know where we stand before I vote.

I don't really like any of our moves, for the record. I don't see whites counter to a couple responses to Nxh7, and g4 is pretty meh. I don't really have any other options for you all though.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What was the response to Nxh7 Qf7?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I am an idiot.

g4 is a better move by far from what I can see. The lack of response to my query regarding Nxh7 Qf7 seems to indicate to me that

we don't have one

.

The more I look at this the more I wonder how this debate is even happening. Nxh7 is aggression for the sake of aggression, with our pieces in shitty position. g4 puts our pieces in better position.

Also in case anyone was wondering, en passant would not be a legal next move for black in the position resulting from g4. I say this because I'm stupid and thought it was, writing g4 off earlier.

move:g4

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Veerus, stop proving that you're scum.
No further comment for now in case I might help Veerus-scum.

Not to get personal, but we

are

playing Chess here, and your arguments so far today have consisted not of Chess moves, but of accusing other people of being scum.

Are you going to respond to his line, or are you just going to continue the ad hom?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

1. I'm not scum.. if I was, I wouldn't keep trying to find holes in the poor moves that have been suggested by you and co
2. Lack of your (and your buddies') desire to respond to my valid arguments and be content to wait until a worse move is deadlined is textbook scum.. considering you replaced sirdanilot who didn't contribute at all to this game except to make attacks or lurk, you're not convincing me that his (and your) play wasn't scummy
3. Nothing we say can really "help" black at this point. This is chess and there are a few FORCED sequences here after g4, all of which win material in the WORST case. Your suggestions lead down a questionable path with no clear way to secure a comparable advantage. If your line is such a great attack, show us a FORCED sequence that gives us an advantage (like g4 is) and everything will be solved. This "helping scum" routine is, well, scummy and if this game ever gets to the lynch stage, you'll be at the top of my list.

I am town and I agree with the above statements.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

And it's so self-destructive not to discuss moves for fear that black will have too much information that I want to go back and lynch whoever suggested that strategy. The town by its nature has less information, and we're limiting ourselves further. It's as if this town were a paraplegic who'd rather drag himself around by his elbows instead of using a wheelchair for fear of potholes.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ray

, I disagree with the white move after Qxg5.

Really? Because I disagree with white throwing away a rook instead of taking a bishop for free.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I mean, seriously... Ray and Zaz, if you're going to try to trick black into making a godawful move, you should be voting for the move of white that leads to said godawful move that you are promoting.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ray's hypothetical.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Bxg5 29. gxf5 Re7

Ray's response to this:

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Bxg5 29. gxf5 Re7 30. Rxe7

Which is kind of like fucking the ugly chick when you have her supermodel girlfriend in the bag.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Bxg5 29. gxf5 Re7 30. hxg5

Which not only increases our material advantage but puts us in a position so strong that you'd have to be tripping balls not to see it.

Which is why I ask Ray--why are you not voting g4, and why if you are not voting g4 are you posting godawful lines?

And I ask Zazier--why are you standing up for godawful lines? Do you even understand how to play this game or are you just entering characters into the chess tags to see where the pretty shapes go?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Doesn't TCS (as well as anyone for that matter) ever read my previous posts?!

I've read your posts, and therefore I disagree with you. Post 1384:

*facepalms, muttering "Only human..." over and over again*

*recovers after 10 minutes*

I believe that gxf4 is not a good move. It's incredibly short-sighted, enough said.

Re5 isn't very good either, at least when I compare it to either Qd3 or Nxh7.

Qd3 Qf8 Nxh7 Kxh7 g4 Kh8 gxf5 Rc7 Rxa6 Bf6 Rf1 f3 and really, Black is screwed all over.

OR....

Nxh7 Bf8 Ng5 Rf6 gxf4 Rc7 Kc1 Rxc2 Kxc2 Qc8 Kb1 and Black is still screwed, but at least he goes down trading pieces.

I've yet to make up my mind, but I will. In the meantime, I beseech you to unvote and discuss the new moves first.

Your first quoted line is among the dumbest responses black has to 28. Nxh7, and the second line contains moves that aren't even legal.

Until you guys can start considering the BEST moves that can be made against us rather than inflating your arguments with straw men, we've got no hope of winning this thing.

I ask for probably not the last time...

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. Nxh7 Qf7

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Ok, for the sake of argument, here's what I think is the best countermove to 28. Nxh7 Qf7

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. Nxh7 Qf7 29. Ng5

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Rofl, ok. Now moving past that.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

<snip>
I believe that gxf4 is not a good move. It's incredibly short-sighted, enough said.

Re5 isn't very good either, at least when I compare it to either Qd3 or Nxh7.

Qd3 Qf8 Nxh7 Kxh7 g4 Kh8 gxf5 Rc7 Rxa6 Bf6 Rf1 f3 and really, Black is screwed all over.

OR....

Nxh7 Bf8 Ng5 Rf6 gxf4 Rc7 Kc1 Rxc2 Kxc2 Qc8 Kb1 and Black is still screwed, but at least he goes down trading pieces.

I've yet to make up my mind, but I will. In the meantime, I beseech you to unvote and discuss the new moves first.

Your first quoted line is among the dumbest responses black has to 28. Nxh7, and the second line contains moves that aren't even legal.

Nah. If you thought so, you would have said so yesterday. When we were considering Qd3 in the first place. But instead you just quietly went along with it.

g4 is a better move by far from what I can see. The lack of response to my query regarding Nxh7 Qf7 seems to indicate to me that

we don't have one.

The lack of response to your query regarding Nxh7 Qf7 seemed to indicate to me that we don't need your vote today.

Until you guys can start considering the BEST moves that can be made against us rather than inflating your arguments with straw men, we've got no hope of winning this thing.
<snip>

We're not going to tell Black what the best move they can make is when we don't have to.

I don't agree with this idea.

And in different news Nxh7 is looking less awfully bad, but I still don't see winning a pawn as more useful than winning the game.

Yes, there are lines of Nxh7 that lead to checkmate, and some that lead to pretty bad position for black, but just because those lines exist doesn't mean that black is going to walk into them.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

move: Qf5

to feel involved.