Mini Theme 2264: Fusion Upick | Post Game

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Radical Rat

Serious vote. RR

was online

at the time this thread was open (check my post #9. They didn't bother dropping by to say hi even and now they're gone. I don't like that and have a feeling they are scum who checked in in the scum PT and decided to avoid the main thread.

If I want to stretch it I'd suggest Ircher has rolled scum once more The early massclaim only serves to give the scum ideas about what to fake claim.

Knowing who's madding the game I can't tell if there's a standard 10-3 distribution or not. Anything is possible with Meg, so I'll just leave it at that

Still reading, but just want to make it clear that I was NOT online at the time you posted that. I have no idea why the site said I was, but I promise I wasn't.

[Radical Rat]

A50 Town, Roden Scum, Ircher... Not sure, leaning Town.

Everyone else null

[Radical Rat]

We should probably NOT massclaim our submissions.

Scum already know somewhere between 3-6 of the possible "material" roles, but I'd rather them not know the rest. Also since our submissions are still tied to our final role, if anyone submitted a particularly strong/useful PR, they'd be forced to out themselves

[Radical Rat]

Why no vote?

Waiting on a vote count because I'm too lazy to count myself

[Radical Rat]

double checks that Not_Mafia isn't in the game

VOTE: Rodent

E-1.

No matter how he tries to spin it now "The other role can be inferred from the description" is NOT what he said originally.

[Radical Rat]

Why do you find Ircher to be leaning town?

Eh, gut mostly. Been in a couple games with him as Town recently, and vibes feel similar here, but I haven't done any kind of proper analysis or anything, so don't consider it a meta read

[Radical Rat]

Roden, if I'm interpreting your claim correctly, that's a Vengeful Gunsmith, which... Is entirely useless.

[Radical Rat]

Also I will say that my role name was definitely not just the two fusion materials smashed together, but idk how consistent the naming conventions are going to be here

[Radical Rat]

It also seems to me that if Roden was indeed Town Vengeful, he shouldn't have said so. Because indeed, if he's Town, scum likely aren't going to want to hammer him... Which means if he does get eliminated, it's most likely Town doing the hammering.... Which means the role is now anti-Town.

So yeah, I'm calling the bluff.

[Radical Rat]

I think A50 is Town still.

It is very unfortunate that Roden legitimately had a role that was just names smashed together, and that created the appearance of a scumslip, but calling that out doesn't make A50 scum.

[Radical Rat]

How so?

[Radical Rat]

I did not misunderstand Vengeful like A50 did, when I said scum wasn't likely to hammer a Town Vengeful, I meant that they would probably prefer to nightkill them rather than potentially get killed for eliminating them.

Also, at the time I called it useless, that was because I was working under the belief that Gunsmith would retain its investigative properties, rather than be converted to a vig invention, and a posthumous investigation is indeed quite useless. At the time that I called it as a bluff, Roden had made clear that it was not an investigative, and did have kill potential.

[Radical Rat]

Wanting a mass claim. Now withholding a "complicated" case on A50. The Roden tunnel, fine, several were. Why not drop your case on A50 on us?


VOTE: Ircher

I would like to say that I have also been thinking sketchy here, but have been too lazy to actually compile the case yet.

I strongly endorse this vote

[Radical Rat]

I did not misunderstand Vengeful like A50 did, when I said scum wasn't likely to hammer a Town Vengeful, I meant that they would probably prefer to nightkill them rather than potentially get killed for eliminating them.

Also, at the time I called it useless, that was because I was working under the belief that Gunsmith would retain its investigative properties, rather than be converted to a vig invention, and a posthumous investigation is indeed quite useless. At the time that I called it as a bluff, Roden had made clear that it was not an investigative, and did have kill potential.

Yes you did "misinterpret"

scum likely aren't going to want to hammer him

...

Which means if he does get eliminated

, it's

most likely Town doing the hammering

....

Which means the role is now anti-Town

There's really no way to misinterpret this. If your main thought at the time was involving mafia getting rid of them at NK, then it becomes irrelevant whether or not town hammers them, but you made an effort to point out the correlation between the two.

"The role is anti-town because town could hammer and get themselves killed from the hammer."

The implication is pretty clear and the way you're trying to spin it means I'm onto something here.

More town on wagon = Higher chance of missing the shot = Anti-Town

[Radical Rat]

1: I never did that. I asked if we should claim our picks, but that's quite different from asking for a mass claim.

We should massclaim what we submitted.

That's not asking, and while it may not be a FULL massclaim, it might as well be for the purposes of scum knowing who they need to prioritize.

VOTE: Ircher

I have more things also

[Radical Rat]

Your pick was "Traffic Analyst

"

Your pick was "Bus Driver,"

as a non-town player

, you know it was combined with "Paranoid Gun Owner.

"

This is a pretty convincing case actually.

Any particular reason you cut out the ability description? You know, the part that explains your role fusion so you know what you've been fused with?

This implies to me that you are in fact scum that slipped. Why does Almost50 need to keep the fluff of the ability descriptions when the quoted amount is the most relevant part of his case?

As scum. He's trying to push a fast mis-elim and is ignoring anything that goes against his case.

Nordom asked how not what. This doesn't answer the question. Also, if we're being reasonable, it's likely the case that Almost50 hasn't been around to respond to your counterargument.

A50 literally just asked me a question. He's definitely around.

Unless you can prove he was around for 100% of the time between when he made his initial case and when you made the post I referenced, this isn't a counterargument.

Like, how did we get from posts like this to dropping a naked vote on A50 and refusing to elaborate?

[Radical Rat]

More town on wagon = Higher chance of missing the shot = Anti-Town

Nice try, but I'm afraid you already buried yourself with the "hammering" correlation, which was just a piggy back off of Almost. People are welcome to take a gander and decide for themselves. Chances are, they'll see what I'm dishing out here.

Alright, so why does scum!me pretend to make the same mistake, only to then insist that I didn't? What do I gain from this exchange?

[Radical Rat]

The hammering was because that's... what was about to happen. I don't know what else to tell you here, but I guess it'll sort itself out one way or another

[Radical Rat]

The hammering was because that's... what was about to happen. I don't know what else to tell you here, but I guess it'll sort itself out one way or another

Sooooooo, you felt the need to, what, remind the town that...uh...town was going to hammer? That roden was going to be dead lickety-split? I don't really understand.

The point was it's anti-Town to claim if true, because scum won't hammer it, which means Town must if the lim goes through, which means the Venge shot is significantly more likely to hit Town than scum, which in turn meant it was likely to be a fakeclaim.

[Radical Rat]

Someone have gun now. And because there's one NK, it's in hand of mafia, who will try to make elo quicker. I believe towm n would shot immediately.

I had hesitations, but i decided if even i wrong, it would be fixed by kill/check.

Also, i remind, my role works only when i am voted. Duh. So can you?

Why would Town have shot immediately over scum?
If I had a one-shot vig, I'd want to be careful with it

[Radical Rat]

If that were the case, why didn't you just point that out? You claimed that scum were going to NK them regardless, why would it matter that Roden was going to get hammered? You kept the lynch at L-1 and didn't unvote, which is an obvious indicator that you wanted to the lynch to go through. If you truly believed that town was going to be the hammer on them, then you would have said so. You didn't and sat on your haunches while it went through.

That was the entire point I was trying to make. I didn't believe the claim, because Town shouldn't have claimed there, and as such wanted the elimination to happen. Though with knowledge of Roden's actual abilities, I do actually think claiming and getting eliminated for it was the correct play, at the time I didn't buy it.

[Radical Rat]

To be clear, I do think you're Town here. I think you're Town doing the exact same thing A50 (along with the rest of us) did with Roden, spotting a supposed scumslip, and pushing it through, except just being wrong about it, and I think tunneling me all Day is bad for the game right now.

[Radical Rat]

And yes, my read on Ircher changed in light of him suddenly 180ing on A50. Happens when players do weirdly scummy things

[Radical Rat]

The crappy part about this whole thing, though, is that now that I'm reading 354, I vibe with it... Until the last part. How did you conclude from that that it's likely a fakeclaim?

Because it doesn't sense to claim Vengeful if true, because doing so effectively nerfs your own role.

[Radical Rat]

Radical, what did you originally think a Vengeful Gunsmith does that you thought it was useless?

Normal Venge targeting, but investigating instead of killing. Useless because Roden couldn't share the results if they were dead

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I went with the wagon, but because I agreed with the arguments presented. Sadly, I wasn't around past Roden's claim which would have made me withdraw.

Why would you have withdrawn? What did the claim change about the arguments you say you agreed with?

[Radical Rat]

Also, i remind, my role works only when i am voted. Duh. So can you?

Seems to me like this question was already answered. If this information is anti-Town, why share it earlier?

[Radical Rat]

I mean yeah, I agree with you not specifying, if just seemed odd that you didn't have a problem with it earlier

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I kinda got that feeling too. I would think if Almost was mafia here he would try to be more aggressive on someone else who was on the Roden wagon to deflect his play yesterday.

Unless he's coasting on "They're pointing fingers at each other, better lay low.", but that feels like weak maf play.

Ok, serious question to everyone.

Does ANYONE in the game scum read me?

I do. Still catching up though

[Radical Rat]

Only meant to quote Toogeloo, sorry. Mobile posting is hell

[Radical Rat]

If you have strong reason to believe it exists, maybe you should say it. Or do you think town being in the dark about setup is better?

Fine, I'll give a hint. Check Flea's day 1 posts.

If you believe this, then you should be voting Flea, yeah?

[Radical Rat]

Here, I'll step up. I have reason to believe mafia visited Toogeloo last night.

Alright, so my thoughts were that Toogeloo was coasting mafia that was taking advantage of the lack of attention to them. They seemed too eager to jump ship onto Radical when prompted, especially claiming double vote like that. I think they believed that I would hard push Radical no matter what, so it was a safe lynch to bunny hop over to.

The only problem is the maf visit to Toogeloo. If Toogeloo is maf, what potential maf roles could visit them?

Andante's flip reveals the existence of redirecting roles. It is feasible that Mafia didn't visit Toogeloo at all, but you were redirected. Or conversely, that Mafia was redirected toward Toogeloo.

[Radical Rat]

Andante directly, yes. But a lightning rod, redirector, or similar is highly likely to be one of the component roles is my point, which means at least one other player has a redirect-type role.

[Radical Rat]

Welcome aboard Dwlee

[Radical Rat]

I stand by that Nordom/Dwlee is probably Town. Nordom was a dick, but he was a Town dick.

[Radical Rat]

Ftr I'll clarify and say it is possible, although unlikely, that town visited toog.

So, does that mean that you were NOT given the alignment of the visitor, or simply that you're accounting for a potential Miller?
I ask because "Mafia visited Toog" and "Someone visited Toog" have very different implications about Toogeloo's alignment

[Radical Rat]

Nathann claimed to investigate and flip as both alignments
Enchant claimed an unspecified PR that is only active if he has at least one vote at the end of the Day
Nordom claimed the Mafia visiting Toogeloo thing

And I THINK that's everything for the living slots?

For dead slots, Roden was Vengesmith, gives someone on the wagon a one-shot vig, and Andante was a Force Visitor, which forces everyone who didn't visit someone else to visit her, for no other effect.

[Radical Rat]

not as aggressive in your votes as I'd like.

I'm not aggressive with my vote ever.

In fact...

*ahem*

...I got fused with a double voter, or something akin to a double voter.

I actually have the ability to vote twice if I wanted to.

You're welcome for the free information.

Also this happened

[Radical Rat]

Honestly, I thought the ascetic claim was a joke

[Radical Rat]

We're not eliminating Dwlee today. As a claimed investigative, scum will either kill them, or they'll continue to generate results.

[Radical Rat]

Preferred elimination right now is still Ircher. Town vibes yesterday pale in comparison to the scum vibes today.

Failing that, I'd also be okay with Enchant or Galron, but that's more for lack of Townreading them than actually scumreading them. Proper scumreads have been hard for me to find this game.

[Radical Rat]

I think this is probably a bad idea as opposed to just eliminating scum, but now that the claim is out there we don't really have a choice so....

VOTE: Greeting

[Radical Rat]

If we DON'T do this, Greeting just gets NKed now, and the opportunity is wasted.

[Radical Rat]

Idk, I think having the extra conftown slot would go a long way. I think this is a terrible way to get it, and the claim should have waited until Greeting was actually about to be eliminated organically, but now that the claim has been made, I think getting the conftown is better than not.

[Radical Rat]

11 people alive

Remove myself + toog + greeting assuming greeting is town

3/8 to hit scum today
If we miss
3/7 to hit scum next day (assume conftown night killed)
If we lim greeting we get 0 chance to hit scum today and then with one conftown + greeting + me removed we get a 3/6 chance to hit scum which is less than 3/8 + 5/8(3/7).

And that's hitting EXACTLY one. We could hit two by limming both days. We get less chance of limming one scum and no chance of limming two, it isn't sound play.

If we're eliminating randomly, sure, but I feel like confirming another slot would help a lot with sorting, at least on a personal level, which would in turn skew things more in favor of getting a full solve.

[Radical Rat]

I probably should have unvoted while we were discussing this...

[Radical Rat]

Thanks for hammering self without anyone voting me.

Wait did you really lose all your votes during that?

F

[Radical Rat]

Dwlee was the wrong slot to confirm here, for precisely this reason, but what's done is done.

Toogeloo is conftown, and Nathann is off the table regardless of alignment.

So that leaves Flea/CSF/Ircher/Galron/Enchant/A50. From these, I'm still most confident on Ircher being scum, and I'm fairly sure CSF and A50 are both Town.

[Radical Rat]

@Toogeloo
Are you allowed to split your votes, or do they have to be on the same slot?

[Radical Rat]

Dwlee was the wrong slot to confirm here, for precisely this reason, but what's done is done.

Toogeloo is conftown, and Nathann is off the table regardless of alignment.

So that leaves Flea/CSF/Ircher/Galron/Enchant/A50. From these, I'm still most confident on Ircher being scum, and I'm fairly sure CSF and A50 are both Town.

Nathann is off the table regardless of alignment

Hm?

Agreed on being careful with votes, and don't think I see downsides to a massclaim. Will get to the rest of this tomorrow, been a busy few days for me.

You flip as both alignments right? Eliminating you therefore doesn't provide any information, unless there's only one scum left, at which point we know your alignment based on whether the game ends.

[Radical Rat]

Ugh, sorry about the extra quote

[Radical Rat]

There are only three scum though.

[Radical Rat]

Vig shot exists and is unaccounted for, so there could potentially be two nightkills.

[Radical Rat]

I can split my votes.

I 100% agree that dwlee was the wrong clear. From my PoV, they were already lock town, and as an investigative, they were already a threat to scum.

What's done is done though.

Busy at the moment, will be back later after a few more slots check in. I disagree with Enchant that we are in potential MeLo here, only 4 players are dead.

9 People alive.
6 are Town.
3 are Mafia.

We elim wrong: 5 Town, 3 Mafia.
Because Mafia have gun from our VengeSmith (Don't even ask why i think so, townie would shot already at someone), the will simple doublekill and we end up in parity.

Like yes, you are doublevoter, but you still can die and it's still parity.
If gun in town hands, then we lose nothing from being cautious with votes anyway.

Questions?

[Radical Rat]

@Ircher

Do you stand by your ascetic claim?

[Radical Rat]

Then why did you fakeclaim ascetic?

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Ircher

[Radical Rat]

A50's logic here is... Extremely incorrect. BUT, it seems like it comes from a Town mindset.

Like, he started off claiming a guilty. We know at least one investigative role is still in the game (Two cop flips, so probably no cops anymore, but one watcher flip and one gunsmith flip, which means there's another role out there with a watcher component, and one with a gunsmith component), so why back down on that to do the whole reflexive neighbor thing? Especially while unvoting and admitting that the reflexive neighbor thing actually had no bearing on any of this?

If A50 were scum trying to push an easy mislim, all he'd have to do is stick to that guilty, and piece together a version of a role that gives him one.

[Radical Rat]

So you're saying your begging for votes was with the knowledge that it fucks up everyone else's actions?

[Radical Rat]

The fusion mechanic makes no sense also. and I've read that over like five times. Two random lists and then .... ???????????????????

Let's say, hypothetically, you were number 1 on the first list, and number 7 on the second. Your pick (Miller) would be fused with whatever the pick of number 7 on the first list was, in your case most likely IC or something similar.

Actual role name and mechanics are then up to Meg's interpretation. Miller and IC are contradictory, leading to you appearing as both Guilty and Innocent simultaneously, and now dubbed Paradox.

[Radical Rat]

Would you redirect Mafia night kills if the mafiosi doing the kill was also voting you that day?

I redirect all actions, including nightkills.

My plan was to prove people as not killers (or die gloriously and draw my voter with me next day, how luck) but i actually screwing around whole game. Why i have problem with drawing votes when i NEED it...

Just in a case, everyone who i redirected Knows about it (via special song message), but only if it affected them at all. Galron called he was roleblocked (or thought so) but received message, so i writed him as NotInvestigator/Killer. Idk what he used on me.

In this case, I have an idea. Possibly even a good one.

We eliminate Ircher, because Ircher is pretty plainly scum to my eyes. However, we also have two questionable slots vote for Enchant. Then, if anyone but Enchant gets nightkilled, we know at least one scum is outside the two we have voting Enchant. If Enchant does get nightkilled, unfortunately it doesn't say much, as scum could just WIFOM kill him, but then we just proceed as normal.

[Radical Rat]

Ideally, we'd have more than two voting Enchant, BUT any more than that and if we get unlucky and all three scum aren't in the group, they can quickhammer and win if indeed they do have Roden's gun

[Radical Rat]

Rodent was able to give a vig shot to someone. I have it. Not planning on using it. If I do though I'll go with the wotc.

I will agree with not using it. If you were going to, you should have shot Nathann, but obviously don't do that when it would potentially create MeLo.

[Radical Rat]

So. If Galron has the shot (and isn't scum), it's safe to put more people on Enchant, because the potential quickhammer would out the scumteam and have them easily dealt with if they tried it. We can potentially fit four, while still having the votes to eliminate someone else, thanks to Toogeloo's double vote.

If we did that, we'd either have a much narrower pool to eliminate in tomorrow if Enchant doesn't die, or we'd be in the same situation we'd be in for not doing it if he does.

[Radical Rat]

Anyone who's been paying more attention than me have a list of known possible fusions and submissions at this point?

Known claims:

Miller + Innocent VIP(?) = Noraa
Vengeful + Gunsmith = Roden
Lightning Rod + Visitor(?) = Andante
Vengeful + Cop(?) = Greeting
Watcher(?) + Cop(?) = Dwlee
Innocent VIP + Double Voter(?) = Toogeloo
Neighbor + Arsonist = Ircher
Arsonist + ??? = Flea
Neighbor + ???(Something Reflexive) = Almost50
Lightning Rod + ???(Something with votes) = Enchant

Unpaired known picks, may possibly be combined with each other:

Gunsmith + ??? = ???
Watcher + ??? = ???
???(Something Reflexive) + ??? = ???
???(Something with votes) + ??? = ???
Double Voter(?) + ??? = ???

Roles followed by a question mark indicate that it's not QUITE confirmed that's the actual component role, but I'm making an educated guess. "???" indicates that I don't feel confident assigning a proper guess.

[Radical Rat]

Anyone who's been paying more attention than me have a list of known possible fusions and submissions at this point?

Known claims:

Miller + Innocent VIP(?) = Noraa
Vengeful + Gunsmith = Roden
Lightning Rod + Visitor(?) = Andante
Vengeful + Cop(?) = Greeting
Watcher(?) + Cop(?) = Dwlee
Innocent VIP + Double Voter(?) = Toogeloo
Neighbor + Arsonist = Ircher
Arsonist + ??? = Flea
Neighbor + ???(Something Reflexive) = Almost50
Lightning Rod + ???(Something with votes) = Enchant

Unpaired known picks, may possibly be combined with each other:

Gunsmith + ??? = ???
Watcher + ??? = ???
???(Something Reflexive) + ??? = ???
???(Something with votes) + ??? = ???
Double Voter(?) + ??? = ???
Visitor(?) + ??? = ???

Roles followed by a question mark indicate that it's not QUITE confirmed that's the actual component role, but I'm making an educated guess. "???" indicates that I don't feel confident assigning a proper guess.

EBWOP, forgot Visitor in the second list

[Radical Rat]

Although now that I'm looking at this, that's already more than 13 distinct picks, and neither of my own component roles are accounted for there. So.... Someone's been lying.

[Radical Rat]

It's POSSIBLE Miller goes to Enchant? A bit of a stretch, but within possibility.

[Radical Rat]

Is Ircher just priming people and then activating a neighborhood all at once?

It's this one, per Ircher's claim at least

[Radical Rat]

Anyone else feel their claim might break open the game a little more before I commit to my position on today's direction?

I'm at a point where I think the status quo for the scum isn't changing, and they are fine with today's pushes. There hasn't been too much pushback against A50 as a counter wagon to Ircher, bor has there really been any push for a counter wagon in general aside from a couple of vanity votes.

I got a little laugh at Noraa calling me possible scum though. It's a uPick. When am I never going to line myself up as town in a uPick if I can? I despise playing scum.

I'm a kind of compulsive redirector, which gave me pause when Enchant claimed. I don't think Enchant is scum though.

Would you mind specifying the nature of your redirection? Like, is it a straight redirect, or something more complicated?

[Radical Rat]

Actually, y'know what? I just want a massclaim here I think. We've got too many component roles claimed, and I think massclaim is the best way to sort out who's lying here.

I do need to go last though, because my role gives me partial knowledge of someone else's, and I want to see if they claim truthfully before elaborating.

[Radical Rat]

Problem is SOMEONE has fakeclaimed. Not sure why, since indeed alignments and roles aren't correlated in this setup, but someone did, and I don't see a way to get to the bottom of it without massclaiming.

[Radical Rat]

We're not going to get a mech win from claims alone, no. But it is immediately apparent from extant claims and flips that some people are lying. Who's lying and why are questions with answers that I believe Will lead us to a solve, and we have enough Town power already claimed or dead that I'm pretty sure scum already has all the information they need.

[Radical Rat]

Regrettably, we are running out of day here.

I THINK Flea is the last one that needs to properly claim before I do, but fae's already claimed enough I think. So.

[Radical Rat]

Also Galron hasn't fullclaimed, but yeah I think I have enough to start figuring shit out regardless.

[Radical Rat]

My role is Town Prosecutor, my pick was Condemner. I was pretty transparently fused with a Bus Driver.

The way my role works is that another player in the game, presumably whoever got fused with Condemner, picks a target at night that they want to survive. That player then becomes "on trial" the following day. If they get eliminated, the next night I can bus drive myself with someone else.

My targets were as such:
D1 - N/A
D2 - Enchant
D3 - Radical Rat

I didn't pursue Enchant much D2, because I wasn't certain whether whoever picked them knew that they were also picking my target, which could have been scum attempting to get me to help with a mislim, and also because I was just way more confident on Ircher being scum than Enchant.

And then today, well. Obviously not gonna eliminate myself.

[Radical Rat]

So. Which one of you is my other half, and why are you hiding that fact?

[Radical Rat]

If that's the case, then that means Noraa doesn't have the Innocent part, and either something else is affecting zir invest/flip, or that claim is a lie.

[Radical Rat]

@Galron
When next you're here, please claim your attempted action N1

[Radical Rat]

I didn't target myself, someone else picked me

[Radical Rat]

@Galron
When next you're here, please claim your attempted action N1

I attempted to target Nathann but I was distracted by a melody or something, so I think I was redirected myself. Looking at Enchant's claim, that makes sense because I was voting him at the end of Day 1.

Who did you try to redirect Nathann onto though?

[Radical Rat]

Okay, so to make sure I have this right...

You target someone one night, and their alignment is flipped for investigations. The next night you redirect their action onto someone else, and that person receives an investigation result on the new target in addition to their normal action?

[Radical Rat]

The way I understand it, whomever I redirected N2 (again, I don't know because it's my N1 pick and I was redirected) should have received results on who I redirected their power to. I really don't know how to be subtle about this so I'm just putting it out there. If anyone received results on someone they didn't target, you're welcome.

???

[Radical Rat]

CSF, could you claim your targets so far please?

[Radical Rat]

Rat, what's your read on Noraa (previously Nathan)?

As of right this second? Town.

It's been back and forth though

[Radical Rat]

In any case, I was hoping to hear from CSF before this, but time is running short, so.

We most likely have confirmed scum in Ircher/Flea/CSF.

Nordom/Dwlee got a result that Mafia visited Toogeloo N1. He didn't die, so we know it wasn't the NK. Enchant, Myself, Noraa, and A50 all had no ability to visit on N1, and Galron was redirected onto Enchant. Which leaves Ircher, Flea, and CSF.

Of that pool I think Ircher is the scummiest, and CSF the Towniest, but a Flea elimination may be the most prudent.

[Radical Rat]

Why Flea over Ircher? Because I believe the Neighbor thing, and that's harmless enough.

Flea on the other hand, appears to have claimed an Arsonist/Roleblocker of sorts, which doesn't match up with any other known picks, but could potentially interfere with what Town power we have left if it is true.

VOTE: Flea the Magician

[Radical Rat]

Enchant, Myself, Noraa, and A50 all had no ability to visit on N1

is this mech confirmed in any way?

Galron backs up Enchant's claim, but otherwise no, this is just going off of claims.

[Radical Rat]

It's time for decision.

We need to pill up 3 votes on me, and collect enough votes to elim.

I don't think this is going to happen. Not enough time left to distinguish between refusal and just not being around, let alone to enforce it on scum that probably doesn't want this to happen.

Having said that, my recommendation is Flea/Ircher/Galron on you, and if they want to do that as they check in, that'd be great.

[Radical Rat]

It's time for decision.

We need to pill up 3 votes on me, and collect enough votes to elim.

I don't think this is going to happen. Not enough time left to distinguish between refusal and just not being around, let alone to enforce it on scum that probably doesn't want this to happen.

Having said that, my recommendation is CSF/Ircher/Galron on you, and if they want to do that as they check in, that'd be great.

EBWOP
Just woke up, I'm sleepy

[Radical Rat]

Why Flea over Ircher? Because I believe the Neighbor thing, and that's harmless enough.

Flea on the other hand, appears to have claimed an Arsonist/Roleblocker of sorts, which doesn't match up with any other known picks, but could potentially interfere with what Town power we have left if it is true.

VOTE: Flea the Magician

This is out of nowhere and reads like someone scared that I can get clears.
you also have no stated read on me at any time and have kept me strictly in mechpoe.

AoE powers are amazing - especially in the combination I have. I need to read you later.

I don't have a "proper" read on you because you haven't been playing. I recognize that's because of your health issues, but even so it's hard to read someone who isn't here

[Radical Rat]

If I fired, yes. I didn't. My list who is I've "primed" or chilled as per my flavour. Nobody has been frozen yet.

Galron is probably Town for not shooting, yes. Unless he lied about having the gun, but then someone else really should have claimed that by now.

CSF didn't perform the nightkill, BUT that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't still scum...

[Radical Rat]

WHY DOES THIS RANDOM QUOTING NONSENSE HAPPEN

I mean I know it's probably me brushing against the multiquote button while scrolling, and I know it could be easily avoided by using preview, just... Ugh

[Radical Rat]

Anyway...

1. Condemner + Bus Driver
2. No direct actions, but for condemnation purposes, None D1, Enchant D2, Radical Rat D3, and now Flea D4... Which is an interesting one.
3. Noraa? Maybe?
4. Enchant? Maybe?
5.

[Radical Rat]

Prime Toogaloo, Galron, A50 on respective nights.

This is a scumclaim.

Nordom/Dwlee received a result that Mafia visited Toogeloo N1.

VOTE: Flea the Magician

[Radical Rat]

Here, I'll step up. I have reason to believe mafia visited Toogeloo last night.

[Radical Rat]

So I'm guessing Galron just didn't read the last bit of his Role PM then?
Glad that's resolved at least.

[Radical Rat]

In any case, Noraa's gotta be the elimination today. Even with the double flip thing, we know zir true alignment because if we're wrong the game ends, and if we're right it doesn't. And I'm confident enough in zir being scum because of the hard defense on Flea yesterday, until the mechanical impossibility of Flea being Town was explicitly spelled out for zir.

[Radical Rat]

you make it sound like scum me is so dumb that i can't even recognize that flea is beyond saving and instead am gonna do a bunch of shitty scum theatre with enchant for no good reason. and let's say that enchant is town and im scum. it doesn't make sense to give a townie an opportunity to explain the situation to me. either i join the wagon or i don't if im scum. all the stuff before it does nothing but prove im town

Fact is, you

didn't

recognize Flea was beyond saving. And, as Flea faerself has demonstrated, making a mistake does not preclude you from being scum.

And sure, theoretically you could be Town making the same mistake, but I think hard defending a guilty result is far more likely to come from scum trying to save their buddy than it is Town.

[Radical Rat]

Why would I point out the guilty we'd all seemingly forgotten about on my buddy as scum in Elo instead of just... Not doing that and winning?

[Radical Rat]

Anyway, as far as actions go I switched myself with A50, partly for the PT that I didn't know wouldn't work now.

I'm functionally a VT now, since Galron is dead and won't be defining my targets anymore

[Radical Rat]

Alright, why do that as Town then?

[Radical Rat]

Alright, why do that as Town then?

because i misunderstood dwlee's claim. and no, i wouldn't do that as scum.

But that's the whole problem here. Town misunderstanding Dwlee's claim the way you did, I would expect to still take it as a guilty. However, you took it as a way to save Flea, which only makes sense to me if you're approaching the situation with the predetermined goal of saving Flea. It's technically possible you did that as Town, it just makes more sense from scum.

Similarly, me pointing out the guilty could have theoretically happened as scum. But it makes less sense to do as scum than it does as Town.

However, there is one more scum out there, so I am willing to shift my focus for now...

[Radical Rat]

Enchant is pretty much locktown for me right now.

So that leaves CSF/A50...

Both of which I townread, which means I'm wrong on at least one of them. If I absolutely must choose, I would say A50, but I really do have like. No confidence here.

[Radical Rat]

Enchant, why did you not claim Miller earlier?

[Radical Rat]

that has nothing to do with redirect whatsoever

Toogeloo claimed his pick was Innocent VIP though is the thing. It seems like only the Innocent part got picked up on, but theoretically the role could be used for redirection

[Radical Rat]

Flea visiting A50 is actually a very good point I hadn't considered yet.

If A50 faked it, Flea corroborated it, which makes fine sense if they're buddies... EXCEPT that Flea ALSO claimed it in the post where fae outed themselves with the Toog visit. If fae were going to be faking visits, you'd expect faer to also fake the guilty one. So I'm inclined to believe fae's claimed visits were true. And it does indeed make No Sense for Flea to target A50 with that particular ability if they're buddies.

So, A50 can be safely assumed to be Town, which means.... Noraa/Enchant/CSF are the only remaining possibilities. Enchant I still quite firmly townread, so.... Yeah, I'm ready to vote I think, pending input from others.

[Radical Rat]

If fae were going to be faking visits, you'd expect faer to also fake the guilty one.

a normal mafia player wouldn't think guiltying two scum in one post is somethign that makes sense. but here you are.

And yet, it happened. It doesn't do any good to go on about how scum wouldn't do x, when scum has objectively already done x

[Radical Rat]

My point is more that a hypothetical scumteam of A50/Flea thought enough about their actions to claim visiting with an interaction to clear one of them, but somehow DIDN'T think to cover their bases with the claimed investigative result.

[Radical Rat]

Y'know, this whole trying to engage with my scumreads in good faith is a habit of mine that usually bites me in the ass, and I genuinely just don't find your arguments convincing here anyway, so I think it's time to stop going in circles here.

I will be voting Noraa in 24 hours unless someone that isn't Noraa gives me a good reason not to

[Radical Rat]

We could get zoraster to temporarily disable the p-edit feature, then have them both post at the same time

[Radical Rat]

IF Noraa's Town, the only possible partner for A50 left is me. And I already know I'm not Mafia, so... Permission to hammer or should CSF tag out first just to be thorough?

[Radical Rat]

Also I've been here the whole time and haven't hammered so actually no yeah we're good.

[Radical Rat]

I'm gonna go for it

GG Scum if this was all an elaborate ploy to make Town hammer.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Noraa

[Radical Rat]

Good news is, no one left alive has any visiting abilities, so CSF shooting has zero risk of killing Town

[Radical Rat]

Y'know, somehow I did forget scum also gets a kill in

[Radical Rat]

I think we should still let the night happen either way, because I wanna see what happens even if it's hopeless

[Radical Rat]

I am not. I would have let someone else point out the guilty on Flea before bussing.

[Radical Rat]

I don't like to bus if it can be helped. Though it would have been very funny if that did happen

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I was confused about how my role actually worked, turns out it was permanent and not a one-shot.

I did find out after Flea's death, but chose to lie about it to hopefully get scum to shoot me still... Which indeed worked out!

[Radical Rat]

Aaaaaaayyyyyyyy....

Good game. Apologies for being mostly bad at the game. I think Rad Rat played an amazing game though. Town MVP, for sure.

I really don't think I did all that great, but I appreciate the compliment.

Lots of things I planned on doing that just didn't get done, and my reads were real iffy for a lot of the game, but it all worked out in the end

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, I was confused about how my role actually worked, turns out it was permanent and not a one-shot.

I did find out after Flea's death, but chose to lie about it to hopefully get scum to shoot me still... Which indeed worked out!

i thought you would busdrive with galron because that seemed like the obvious action. funny that csf and i thought differently both times.
csf was right once. i was right once

I probably would have if Galron either had fired or had never claimed the gun.

[Radical Rat]

Exactly. Galron's role wasn't worth bodyguarding for, so I figured I'd hit a slot I wasn't sure on just in case I got targeted for the kill. Which I shouldn't have been, since I'd already claimed the ability, but y'know just in case.

If I could have done a normal Bus Driver action and not been required to include myself, I probably would have done Galron <-> A50, and then it would be pretty easy to get the scumteam from there, but without that option I figured better Galron die than me.

[Radical Rat]

The vig shot that would immediately lose the game if he missed, in a game with redirection abilities active?

[Radical Rat]

I think if it were gonna be variable, it should be limited to one third party. True multiball seems a bit much, especially since role and alignment necessarily have no correlation here.