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[JacksonVirgo]

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[JacksonVirgo]

Aka egopost, will catch up soon

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: ZZZX
Scummy-ish hop on

Id vote you but I forgot what that term was called... time to get back to the wiki.

But I will bite, why is it scummish? :good:

ZZZ is being incredibly self-aware. Putting a safety-helmet on with the post before doing the thing (calling it scummy) anyway as if you're afraid of the backlash.

heipzhu4, BlueSnakelet, ZZZX, Passenger, Hu Tao, AnimatedWiz and TheHoldSteady need to step up their activity

I feel called out!

VOTE: NM

Wow, double-posting to inflate your post count, how desperate

VOTE: ZZZX

Why did y'all eject this guy, he's funny as hell.

Yes! It was OMGUS, thanks.

I was thinking the previous ZZZ post I quoted was partially a joke but this implies you were entirely serious so my point is now doubled. Why are you so concerned about appearing like you aren't just OMGUS voting? If you think it's scummy, push it.

You know what? I will do a serious vote for once and a question.

Are you scum NM? My gut is tingling and questioning you right now. Mostly probably becuase you are the only one here i have any semblence of an ability to read here currently.

VOTE: NM

Thst puts you at L2 if I am not mistaken

I now think ZZZ is just a wolf. Why do you need to preface that you're doing a serious vote. Why are you asking someone if they're wolf. You're reading them as wolf because "I don't have a read on anybody else" yet say your gut is tingling on them. Which are two contradictory statements. You then act LAMIST with the L-2 declaration.

Well, a decent amount of us have made public a read or two—I figured you might also have one, even if it’s rather undeveloped.

Animated appears to be acting incredibly pro-town and for now at this point in the catch-up I'm inclined to believe them town. It could be because the lack of overall content that wolves are able to control the early game a lot more and they appear to know what they're doing so I am of course cautious but this is a great thing to keep in mind. I like them a lot.

Side note I won't be giving reads on the two dead folk even if I would be TRing hu tao so hard rn if I was in D1.

I suppose even a Villager might try to be hard to read—still feels off to me, but I concede I have less experience with them.

I’ll keep my vote on them for now, but who knows how this elimination will end up?

Not_Mafia is common low hanging fruit. They've always been like this in my experience and typically LHF has scum pushing it pretty hard if there is no resistance to it so I'll check back later when I'm fully caught up to see if that was the case here or not.

VOTE: Not Mafia

Anyways.

Why did you hammer here?

---

That being said. Caught up on D1. Onto D2

[JacksonVirgo]

What do we think of Random Nurse quickhammering? I have to admit, encountering some WIFOM trying to decipher the reasons he would have to do so.

I want to wait to see if they responded (I assume they have), quick-hammering in a typical game usually comes from Town. But in a smaller game such as this, and considering NM's position I wouldn't be entirely shocked if RN is scum here that saw the opportunity.

I'll keep you posted as I read further

[JacksonVirgo]

So, yeah, I hammered Not Mafia because I'm not going to tolerate a jester who doesn't contribute to the gamestate and is just going to be mis-lim bait. If he's going to be a jester he can go Day 1 instead of end game. Got it?

I am absolutely certain Scum will attempt to use my hammering of NM against me, so if you're Town FFS, be smart.

Now, with that out if the way, get out of my way as I take a look at the VCs and associations. If you want to fight me over NM's yeet I will give it to you.

I can respect this reasoning, the hammer itself (while still very anti-town) isn't scummy.

[JacksonVirgo]

So, yeah, I hammered Not Mafia because I'm not going to tolerate a jester who doesn't contribute to the gamestate and is just going to be mis-lim bait. If he's going to be a jester he can go Day 1 instead of end game. Got it?

I am absolutely certain Scum will attempt to use my hammering of NM against me, so if you're Town FFS, be smart.

Now, with that out if the way, get out of my way as I take a look at the VCs and associations. If you want to fight me over NM's yeet I will give it to you.

Look at

what

associations?

You quick hammered page 4-5, when we weren't even really out of RVS, half the votes on NM were simply people either annoyed by him, parked on him (like mine), or scum making use of the situation to get a quick elim.

I think blue is probably town, Random might be scum, but I can't even be sure because I can see non-scum just doing that horrid horrid decision.

I also think one of the people not voting was probably scum.

BUT instead of having information of people, we are just empty because you took that QH, to be honest blue setting NM to E-1 was equally problematic.

You're shading/discrediting RN without having the balls to commit to the read. It's clear you are putting it out that you scum-read them but you aren't at all putting your back behind it. Are you afraid of putting yourself out there?

[JacksonVirgo]

Yeah, this game doesn’t have too much talk—not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make it difficult to get a read on anyone due to how little most of us have said.

If I might ask—BlueSnakelet, what reads do you have? You’ve had several votes but not spoken too much about what motivated them.

Being day 2 and 10 pages is already advantageous to the wolves so I'm hoping to pick up that slack. I've already gauged that I can probably talk logically with you of all the players so I can't wait to have a discussion about this with you. Why do you think RN is particularly wolfy rn? I believe that's what you said your stance on them was

[JacksonVirgo]

NOW, what do you make of the idea of a mass-claim? We are what, two mis-lims away from defeat? I need more information to work with and I think now is the time for all of us to put our cards on the table.

I think a mass claim will go how BlueSnakelet mentioned it thought the quickhammer question would go—maybe not useful immediately, but the second someone deviates we have a target to go for. Honestly, I think it’s great zoning, so we should probably try it out.

In that case,

I’m a vanilla Villager.

A mass-claim is not a good idea. It leaves the game in a mech focus which is not at all what benefits the Town but it's probably already happened so can't really do much about that now huh

[JacksonVirgo]

RN, in my world, I’m a Town Backup Neighbor and you’re a Town Traffic Analyst and heiphi and Blue are both Mafia Neighbors.

In my world, you are a negative utility PR, you contribute nothing. Neighbors are generally neither positive or negative utility, so the moderator then needs to add another role to the setup to balance it out. In this case, the role the mod adds is a Town Indecisive Doctor.

Negative utility PR means that they produce negative utility. In your theory, if the neighbours are both scum. He'd be a named townie. Not negative utility, you framing it this way is doing an injustice. Having a named townie in this setup so far makes zero sense from a setup speculation standpoint. Meaning there is at least one scum outside of the neighbourhood, which I already know to be the case so I'm just laying it out for your information. As a person that came in from a different perspective I feel my thoughts are valuable for y'all. You're also inherently biased against the neighbours (as either alignment) as you'd want in the neighbourhood and to do that one of us needs to die.

[JacksonVirgo]

Actually I'm starting to suspect Passenger.

VOTE: Passenger

What about them do you not like?

[JacksonVirgo]

WITH THAT SAID:

We are in a 9 player game. We have 2 dead VT’s and 2 VT claims.

4 VT’s is the minimum number of VT’s in a 9 player normal.

Thus, ZZZX and AnimatedWiz are completely clear.

At least one player has received the following role PM:
(edited out the villager rolecard)

This is inherently false.

[JacksonVirgo]

EBWOP: There is at least one scum in Blue/heiphi.

That's based on your own assumptions about the setup. Realistically there is a much higher chance (certainty from my own perspective) that there is at least one scum outside of the neighbourhood. I've said this before but I'm restating it now.

[JacksonVirgo]

Animated appears to be acting incredibly pro-town and for now at this point in the catch-up I'm inclined to believe them town. It could be because the lack of overall content that wolves are able to control the early game a lot more and they appear to know what they're doing so I am of course cautious but this is a great thing to keep in mind. I like them a lot.

I am flattered, but this is my first game ever, so I wouldn't say I fully know what I'm doing.

P.S. I appreciate the detailed catch-up thoughts—means we can get a sort of outsider look on what's been said here so far.

Oh actually? I noted you (in my head) of being the most experienced out of everybody except maybe Nurse. But you're definitely more articulate than Nurse (soz nurse, ily tho)

[JacksonVirgo]

Alright, fully caught up and I'm pretty sure this is wolf here.
VOTE: ZZZ

[JacksonVirgo]

Alright, fully caught up and I'm pretty sure this is wolf here.
VOTE: ZZZ

What do you think of Bluesnake? I noticed you slipped over them in your reads and tbh I'm completely torn on them I see some stuff that seems town some stuff that seems scum

If I didn't talk about anybody, it's because I didn't see anything of theirs worth quoting. I think their post about "if I'm green do blah, if I'm red do blah" is slightly disingenuous or misguided. I'm not sure which it would be, I'm hoping to catch their thoughts directly when they're next on. What makes you personally torn from them? If you quote some stuff I can give you my direct thoughts.

[JacksonVirgo]

With only 10 pages, there isn't much on anybody really and the early hammer is actually pretty harmful to thread health (not saying RN is scum for it).

[JacksonVirgo]

Honestly, this is speculation but Passenger may be trying to get one of the neighbours out so they can't get red-checked by the TA

[JacksonVirgo]

I doubt they're not a backup neighbour. Claiming that is suicide in the lategame so regardless of alignment, that'd be their role. It's very much possible that the setup was designed for this type of interaction where the wolf backup wants to get rid of a neighbour fast before they get schmacked by the TA. Interesting thought experiment at the very least, would make sense why they'd go for both neighbours equally

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't personally see them encouraging quick ends. The first one is explicitly saying nobody will risk it, generally that would be true but RN was slaying.
The second seems to be actively deterring anybody from hammering rather than encouraging a quickhammer
The third has nothing to do with a quickhammer at all and is just possibly lining up future eliminations as opposed to talking about this one.

[JacksonVirgo]

59 once again i don't know why he's so bent on figuring everything out so early.

I can't see anything townie nor scummy in this particular post

[JacksonVirgo]

Personally, I feel like ZZZX and Blue might be the scumteam? They did vote together on Day 1, and Blue did wrongly state that ZZZX was guaranteed to be a Villager due to him claiming to be a vanilla Villager like I did (though it might just be an honest mistake of logic). ZZZX also said that he thinks Blue is town—I think this was right before the massclaim? Additionally, Blue said that Passenger should be eliminated next if Zhu flipped green, and Passenger early on chainsawed ZZZX for joining on my bandwagon early on during the voting stage.

Honestly, all of that is a bit circumstantial, but those two lean Wolves for me (in addition to Passenger, who is also very gung-ho on another quick elimination).

P.S. Personally, I was already rather townreading Zhu (my strongest townread, actually), so it's nice to have that read strengthened by Jackson's wave of analysis. Hopefully that helps pause the wave for another quick elimination.

I don't really like looking into association reads without any flips. I can discuss them yeah but it's very rare I feel like it's good to SR people based on interactions and associations when neither side has died yet. Both individual reads but I'm thinking ZZZ/Passenger contains at least one wolf.

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler:

Yeah, this game doesn’t have too much talk—not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make it difficult to get a read on anyone due to how little most of us have said.

If I might ask—BlueSnakelet, what reads do you have? You’ve had several votes but not spoken too much about what motivated them.

At some point Yesterday I made this list, though I can't remember the exact thought process behind it:

Annie
ZZZX
Heip
Passenger
Steady
Nurse
Tao
Not_Mafia

The game was barely out of RVS, so none of these were particularly strong.

Fine... I'll bite.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Call me hypocrite, but I can't think of anyone else.

why not tao? it seems you were actually thinking of other people if you bothered to make that list.

What are you saying here? The list was like 200 posts later

[JacksonVirgo]

Not 200. That's an exaggeration but definitely later

[JacksonVirgo]

Also, rather impressive that we have enough posts in a short enough timeframe to deny Bianco and Alianna's usual tactic of having a vote count at the top of every page.

Ahaha, we gotta make up for the early D1 end after all

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler:

Yeah, this game doesn’t have too much talk—not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make it difficult to get a read on anyone due to how little most of us have said.

If I might ask—BlueSnakelet, what reads do you have? You’ve had several votes but not spoken too much about what motivated them.

At some point Yesterday I made this list, though I can't remember the exact thought process behind it:

Annie
ZZZX
Heip
Passenger
Steady
Nurse
Tao
Not_Mafia

The game was barely out of RVS, so none of these were particularly strong.

Fine... I'll bite.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Call me hypocrite, but I can't think of anyone else.

why not tao? it seems you were actually thinking of other people if you bothered to make that list.

What are you saying here? The list was like 200 posts later

he said he made it at the beginning of the game

Beginning of the game or not. The posts you quoted were 67 posts apart, and the list was posted after the vote you quoted. I'm not following what you're meaning here

[JacksonVirgo]

Random Nurse is an abrasive egoplayer and in a game that is primarily full of conservative, low postcount players, Random Nurse will become limbait. I don't think anything that Random Nurse has said so far is alignment indicative in the context of his playstyle.

AnimatedWiz gives newbtown vibes, especially in 105. I'm not sure that a newbie scum player would think to include things like "scum certainly have 2 votes to use."

ZZZX's questioning of Random Nurse is towny but nothing he's said is unfakeable.

VOTE: TheHoldSteady

Better than nothing!

Passenger, what's your read on Hold? Is it simply a gut feeling or any specific reason to vote?

entirely just gut feeling. And not a particularly strong gut feeling at that. Given his complete lack of reaction I'd be inclined to say that he's slightly more towny.

this seems like townie line of thought scumhunting

Can you delve further into why you think it's townie? Saying it is great and all but I cannot reciprocate it if I don't see what you see

[JacksonVirgo]

Spoiler:

Yeah, this game doesn’t have too much talk—not necessarily a bad thing, but it does make it difficult to get a read on anyone due to how little most of us have said.

If I might ask—BlueSnakelet, what reads do you have? You’ve had several votes but not spoken too much about what motivated them.

At some point Yesterday I made this list, though I can't remember the exact thought process behind it:

Annie
ZZZX
Heip
Passenger
Steady
Nurse
Tao
Not_Mafia

The game was barely out of RVS, so none of these were particularly strong.

Fine... I'll bite.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Call me hypocrite, but I can't think of anyone else.

why not tao? it seems you were actually thinking of other people if you bothered to make that list.

What are you saying here? The list was like 200 posts later

he said he made it at the beginning of the game

Beginning of the game or not. The posts you quoted were 67 posts apart, and the list was posted after the vote you quoted. I'm not following what you're meaning here

i'm asking if he made that list towards the beginning of the game why did he say "can't think of anyone else". he shared it much later but said he had made it around the end of the rvs stage.

I can't speak for him but the day ended on page 4. That's 100 posts for the entirety of day 1 and him having 67 posts between your vote doesn't say much. That's literally almost comparing the start of the day to the end that and the end of RVS is where you form the initial reads. If the list was formed at the end of RVS aligns with genuine thought processes. There's nothing wrong with those two posts

[JacksonVirgo]

WITH THAT SAID:

We are in a 9 player game. We have 2 dead VT’s and 2 VT claims.

4 VT’s is the minimum number of VT’s in a 9 player normal.

Thus, ZZZX and AnimatedWiz are completely clear.

This leaves 2 scum in (T3, TheHoldSteady, Random Nurse, BlueSnakelet, and heiphizhu)

I don’t think I have ever seen a neighborhood that contains all town. I think it is very likely there is at least one scum in Vlue

this seems like something a confused town would say, not scum

It reads to me as pushing an agenda of just being confused.

[JacksonVirgo]

It's a blatant lie that is not even remotely close to any other normal run, and is easily confirmable. Yet it was greatly exaggerated

[JacksonVirgo]

The agenda in question is what I would say their push on the full neighbourhood is

[JacksonVirgo]

Damn I was gonna snipe that pagetop

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't really think Blue is necessarily town. But nothing I've seen would tell me they're more likely scum over Passenger or ZZZ. So I'm wanting to put my focus on those two. What are your thoughts on each of those?

[JacksonVirgo]

The two of blues posts were also 4 IRL days apart.

[JacksonVirgo]

Honest question here: is it possible that, due to the list being posted far later after the time he claimed to have come up with the reads and that he didn't have an explanation for any of them, it's possibly not an accurate reads list? I mean, even if he really did have those reads at that time, we don't even know what reasons he had for them.

You could even extend the logic to say that it's a fake list posted later to match what everyone else ending up read, but I'm not sure if that's too far out on a limb.

Reasoning with 4 pages are always going to be weak and based in very little. I think you're both thinking the game was more advanced than it really was. The game wasn't even outside of RVS when the day was ended.

[JacksonVirgo]

i think limming zz -> snake -> passenger in that order should win the game

I agree but I don't think Snake is particularly scummy so I'd put Passenger ahead of them who is actively scummy.

[JacksonVirgo]

It's a blatant lie that is not even remotely close to any other normal run, and is easily confirmable. Yet it was greatly exaggerated

I said the 4 VT’s thing from a setup perspective. I highly doubt that the reviewers would ever approve a 9 player setup with 3 VT’s. It’s

possible

but unlikely.

This is another lie. You said specifically that 4 was the MINIMUM amount of VTs. Not what you suspect to to be the minimum

We are in a 9 player game. We have 2 dead VT’s and 2 VT claims. 4 VT’s is the minimum number of VT’s in a 9 player normal. Thus, ZZZX and AnimatedWiz are completely clear.

[JacksonVirgo]

I believe you explicitly said that to control the Town into an agenda of yours. You're contradicting yourself

[JacksonVirgo]

I guess I could see a world in which 1 Neighbor and 1 VT claim is scum but it just feels awfully unlikely

You didn't say unlikely. You tried making it appear to be a fact that there MUST be 4 VTs. You were not saying you beleive it's unlikely. You did not say that.You're saying that

now

since you're getting called out on your lie but you most certainly did not say or mean it back then.

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Passenger

They're wolf. Caught out on a lie

[JacksonVirgo]

Passenger what's your thoughts on ZZZ

[JacksonVirgo]

We are in a 9 player game. We have 2 dead VT’s and 2 VT claims. 4 VT’s is the minimum number of VT’s in a 9 player normal. Thus, ZZZX and AnimatedWiz are completely clear.

You literally said it. These are

your

words.

In what world is "completely clear" and "is the minimum number of VT's in a 9p normal" just suggestions. No you're stating this as if it were facts

[JacksonVirgo]

I understand making a mistake but your words right in this conversation prove that it wasn't just a mistake. You're playing it off like you never said it, therefore you're just wolf here.

[JacksonVirgo]

I guess I could see a world in which 1 Neighbor and 1 VT claim is scum but it just feels awfully unlikely

You didn't say unlikely. You tried making it appear to be a fact that there MUST be 4 VTs. You were not saying you beleive it's unlikely. You did not say that.You're saying that

now

since you're getting called out on your lie but you most certainly did not say or mean it back then.

From my fairly extensive experience modding and playing in normals that I believed the 4 VT’s as a minimum rule with ~95 to 98% certainty

That's cool. This is NOT what you said. You're playing it off the best you can, and I respect it but this is all a bandaid fix for you. You're caught in a lie

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Passenger

They're wolf. Caught out on a lie

I’m tempted to say that this is a dumb push and that you should know better

You are literally caught in a lie lmao

[JacksonVirgo]

why make that up as scum

Why make up what?

[JacksonVirgo]

I doubt they're not a backup neighbour. Claiming that is suicide in the lategame so regardless of alignment, that'd be their role. It's very much possible that the setup was designed for this type of interaction where the wolf backup wants to get rid of a neighbour fast before they get schmacked by the TA. Interesting thought experiment at the very least, would make sense why they'd go for both neighbours equally

As I said here. I believe they're pushing a hard agenda to get out one of the neighbours so they can't get caught as scum by the TA. It would align with why they'd lie about the VTs so the discussion stays where they want. In the same post where they lied they said "I've never seen a full town neighbourhood" which is just an awful reason to SR in the neighbourhood and it's just all nonsense reasoning and nonsense reasoning is almost certainly coming from wolf. Let alone they're literally lying about what they said and meant because it's very clear what they meant, and they're flat out denying it and they're stuck flat out denying it since they already went down this path

[JacksonVirgo]

why make that up as scum

Why make up what?

why make up the initial lie about two villagers being cleared

do you think passenger knew it would be quickly dismissed as false or no?

Just made that post

[JacksonVirgo]

I understand making a mistake but your words right in this conversation prove that it wasn't just a mistake. You're playing it off like you never said it, therefore you're just wolf here.

Okay, I phrased things weirdly, got too excited, didn’t realize that I had phrased things weirdly after-the-fact, whatever.

It's not just phrasing things weirdly though. You literally lock-towned two VT claims because of it.

[JacksonVirgo]

I have never seen a full town neighborhood, actually!

I've never seen someone use a galaxy flip phone. But people use them

[JacksonVirgo]

I have never seen a full town neighborhood, actually!

I've never seen someone use a galaxy flip phone. But people use them

It doesn't mean anything

[JacksonVirgo]

Answer my question btw. What's your read on ZZZ

[JacksonVirgo]

Because on the off chance that you are Town that lied, ZZZ is still likely wolf too.

[JacksonVirgo]

Answer my question btw. What's your read on ZZZ

Town. I was leaning town on him by his play.

Can you elaborate further? What part of his play has you leaning town?

[JacksonVirgo]

Also what part of my many arguments against you do you feel is "a dumb push".

[JacksonVirgo]

@Hosts

, can you add an extra "Notes" to tell us how many votes is hammer?

[JacksonVirgo]

@Hosts

, can you add an extra "Notes" to tell us how many votes is hammer?

Sure, but do notice that it's also already written at the very top of each VC below the "Votecount X-Y" line.

Oh, I hadn't noticed that. Oopsies

[JacksonVirgo]

Actually. I want the Traffic Analyst to check Passenger. That'd solve them easy, I'm gonna then switch to ZZZ

VOTE: ZZZ

[JacksonVirgo]

UNVOTE:

There's no way we have this setup and all three of us are Villagers. We should check Passenger.

I don’t see how it’d be impossible, we don’t know who the actual scum are nor their roles. That being said I would love your specific thoughts on my cases on ZZZ and Passenger.

[JacksonVirgo]

I very much doubt that would happen ngl

[JacksonVirgo]

Wiz, what's your read on everybody as it stands?

[JacksonVirgo]

I do think Passenger is the most likely wolf here by a pretty large margin, although I'm also not sure I want to throw out a PR when they can be otherwise confirmed but honestly as they pretty much scum-claimed (this is an exaggeration but I believe they slipped wolf) so really we probably should throw them out tonight.

[JacksonVirgo]

I believe we got the same town-core, so that gives me some confidence. I'm a little less sure on Steady because of a few of their posts but overall I believe both him and you are Town. Nurse I had initially pinned as Town too but they haven't been here for me to discuss with so that's dropping pretty substantially.
I don't particularly have a read on Blue one way or another, a few of their posts I felt were extremely weird and I've tried speaking to them about it in the Neighbourhood PT but they have been just as active there as they have here, that is hardly.

ZZZ I've read as scum from my first initial catch-up, which you haven't responded to just told me you liked it. Do you have any particular thoughts on the things I've been calling ZZZX out on? You know my case on Passenger so I shouldn't need to rehash that. What do you mean by lack of information though?

Their claim is pretty awfully convenient for them and their actions aligns with being a wolf as well as I've called out. I'm beginning to honestly think having them be checked via Nurse is just wasted effort, I'd much rather have RN check the Doc claim as that's the claim that stands out the most but I do TR steady so maybe they should just check ZZZ as we flip Passenger so we can solve between Blue/ZZZ.

Unsure, but rn I'm probably opting to just throw out Passenger as it stands

[JacksonVirgo]

If Passenger is a wolf. It clears RN as RN was the primary push before I hopped on

[JacksonVirgo]

Lol this VC is hilarious

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm still here. I fell asleep last night through my night off.

When can we expect a catch up from you?

[JacksonVirgo]

I think considering tomorrow will be limlo if we're wrong here, the priority should be limming who is the most likely scum (which is probably Passenger, their response to the accusations were terrible). With RN not being clear (but I lean town) any report on limlo would still be something we'd have to work through.

For checks tonight I think ZZ would be a good choice because we can try to clear them if our suspicions are wrong.

I’ll agree with you there, we probably should be going Passenger. I wanna wait for them to state their reads though in case they’re not

[JacksonVirgo]

That’s a little aggressive. I never said I thought you a wolf, I want your thoughts on the game brother

[JacksonVirgo]

Honestly, with RN not knowing when he’ll come back I feel we’re just wasting time for no real real. I’m okay with a hammer here

VOTE: Passenger

[JacksonVirgo]

We’re at E-1

[JacksonVirgo]

Honestly, with RN not knowing when he’ll come back I feel we’re just wasting time for no real real. I’m okay with a hammer here

VOTE: Passenger

No real reason*

I hate mobile posting

[JacksonVirgo]

If the claimed Doctor doesn't target me (or says they do but doesn't) and I die Night 2, look into that.

That goes without saying

[JacksonVirgo]

There doesn't seem to be much resistance on the Passenger wagon.

Hard to have resistance when the entire game bar 3 people aren’t posting

[JacksonVirgo]

Normally I’d agree with you but nobody is posting except the three of me, wiz, steady

[JacksonVirgo]

Did you see my case on them too? I find it hard to believe they aren’t just wolf here, and it they are that’s a pretty substantial blunder

[JacksonVirgo]

You'll lim me today, TheHoldSteady will die tonight, and the most likely world here is that JV will try to get BlueSnakelet limmed and then scum will win.

How can you possibly believe this when you’ve made it clear you think it’s me and blue as the wolves

[JacksonVirgo]

Also you respond to me asking about zzz but you don’t answer my question about why my push on you is “bad”.

[JacksonVirgo]

I've already said all of my reads too. I hard TR ZZZX and AnimatedWiz due to setup spec, I've said this before. At this point I think the scumteam is some combination of JV/Blue/RN.

Do you seriously have nothing outside of setup speculation? Given everything I called out in my catch up and everything, you seriously have nothing?

[JacksonVirgo]

like how am I supposed to fight against this wagon? I've already explained my entire thought process to JV, he's continuing to push me despite that. I can't push anyone else here either.

By answering our questions. I don’t want to eliminate you if you’re Town but you gotta convince me you’re not

[JacksonVirgo]

like how am I supposed to fight against this wagon? I've already explained my entire thought process to JV, he's continuing to push me despite that. I can't push anyone else here either.

By answering our questions. I don’t want to eliminate you if you’re Town but you gotta convince me you’re not a wolf

EBWOP

[JacksonVirgo]

How do you even read a game where day one ended like four days early and day two nobody does shit. lmao.

Yeah, honestly it’s really frustrating. It’s literally 3 people solving a pool of 4 people not doing anything really.

[JacksonVirgo]

But realistically we probably win just by wiping the three of pass, zzz and blue

[JacksonVirgo]

Odd. My gut is pinging on AnimatedWiz. Can't place it, but it's what my gut is telling me at the moment.

Oh? I know you say you can’t place it but I would be curious to know why as I’ve pinned him as Town pretty confidently

[JacksonVirgo]

It's nice to see you back, ZZZX—I hope the surprise of the thread almost tripling in post count was a nice surprise after a few days away.

Well, it will be a lovely read for sure, and with more chances to actually do something with the game lol.

When can we expect you to catch up?

[JacksonVirgo]

Odd. My gut is pinging on AnimatedWiz. Can't place it, but it's what my gut is telling me at the moment.

Oh? I know you say you can’t place it but I would be curious to know why as I’ve pinned him as Town pretty confidently

He just feels a bit too calm, too aggreeable, too civil, and too passive and peace-keeper-ish.

I can definitely see what you mean, you think that's scummy over just who they are?

[JacksonVirgo]

Odd. My gut is pinging on AnimatedWiz. Can't place it, but it's what my gut is telling me at the moment.

Oh? I know you say you can’t place it but I would be curious to know why as I’ve pinned him as Town pretty confidently

He just feels a bit too calm, too aggreeable, too civil, and too passive and peace-keeper-ish.

I can definitely see what you mean, you think that's scummy over just who they are?

As Town I get nervous when someone's a little too calm, civil, and agreeable. I daresay you feel a little that way as well right now, or perhaps that's my paranoia acting up.

I'm probably seemingly agreeable because everybody who I'm talking with are who I think are pretty obviously Town so I've been getting comfortable, which now that I am noticing this I'm gonna change cuz that's a fast-track of just getting blindsided. I've been pretty relentlessly pushing my SRs so I feel outside of how I am treating wiz/steady I'm not really the same but then again, I am me so I am biased

[JacksonVirgo]

I will read up within the next 12 hours, I am working for the next 7-8

Ah so I'll catch you when I finish work myself then, nice.

Just to not risk a premature hammer I'll remove my vote

UNVOTE: Passenger

[JacksonVirgo]

Also now that new content is being made I'd rather discuss than to just end the day

[JacksonVirgo]

Hm.

From personal experience those I experience the least tend to be Scum. Scum need to blend in and not take risks or draw attention. Those who are too calm, civil, passive, and agreeable do not take risks, and complements the idea of blending in.

I am more inclined to vote for Wiz. I'm unsure if there's enough time, and Passenger's illogical assumption that there must be Scum Neighbors DID make me question him, but does being illogicall necessarily mean being Scum? Scum love using logic and hiding behind it.

I suspect an AnimatedWiz elimination may be more astute.

VOTE: AnimatedWiz

I'll add my own experience as well. I think the lower the skill of the scum, the more agreeable they will be (excluding random outliers of course) so you may have a point with them. I had originally pinned them as more experienced and they definitely took the initiative and put their foot out a lot this game. Most notably them telling everybody to mass-claim and claiming in the same post. They didn't go like "hey guys should we massclaim?", they just did it and put themselves out there so I'm not sure if the passive/calm/aggreeableness is a scum-tell here.

[JacksonVirgo]

No need to worry anyway, Medic moved their vote, so it was an E2 anyway

Oh that's true

[JacksonVirgo]

RN when you have time I'd love your thoughts on my ZZZ and Passenger cases.
My ZZZ was pretty much just my catch-up

[JacksonVirgo]

You know, I’m at least glad we waited to get more information in the first place. It seemed like we were actually going to eliminate your spot right before you hopped in, Jackson, and then you helped turn it around and someone else is against the wall instead.

I also think this is a weird perspective for a post, almost TMIs me town.

[JacksonVirgo]

Consider my vote on Passenger

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Passenger
Eh no reason to not

[JacksonVirgo]

E-1 brw

[JacksonVirgo]

I finish work soon so if game is still up I will get to work

[JacksonVirgo]

I feel like RNs role gives my role purpose, so I kind of am town reading him from a much perspective

Well, depending on the order of the claims it’d be kinda weird to have a scum traffic analyst with a town backup and two town neighbours.

So if he is scum, he’s a wolf with pass, blue or myself as they would have to have known a neighbourhood is the primary focus of this setup. I could be way off snd he claimed after one of the other three (counting my predecessor as an other)

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm going to drop this role claim list here so that everyone can refer to it later as needed:

Not_Mafia: Villager
Hu Tao: Villager

AnimatedWiz: Villager
ZZZX: Villager
BlueSnakelet: Neighbor
TheHoldSteady: Indecisive Doctor
Random Nurse: Lazy Traffic Analyst
JacksonVirgo: Neighbor
Passenger: Backup Neighbor

P.S. This is in order of claim, with me claiming first and Passenger last. Not_Mafia and Hu Tao are included to be thorough.

Eh just based on trusting this. Claimed after the fact so maybe not. Especially as he claims to have checked the N1 kill

[JacksonVirgo]

We’re all waiting

[JacksonVirgo]

And which players do you think have been scummier?

JV’s predecessor was slightly scummy and JV has been quite scummy here IMO. JV’s push on me is bad. I just think that town!him would have a voice at the back of his head saying “okay, what if Passenger accidentally worded things unclearly and didn’t realize that he did so” or “okay, what if Passenger was being stupid town.” So far he hasn’t even remotely expressed these sentiments. He’s a perfectly good player and I think that town!him would read my posts in at least a slightly better faith than he is doing now.

I have considered you doing this as a Town, I just don't believe that to be the case. Why am I scummy for realising this over the multiple people who have reciprocated the reasonings? Because clearly the logic is valid as at

least

three people reciprocate it. Unless you want to argue that all three of me, wiz and steady are wolves. I don't have to voice the fact that a case isn't 100% for me to know that it isn't 100%. I know there's a chance you're Town, I just don't believe it as it stands. I don't need to voice that, it goes against what I play for. I will find that out on my own.

I even opted to vote out ZZZ instead of you, so that you can get checked by the Traffic Analyst. If that wasn't me trying to solve you, rather than just push you I don't know what is.

If you are Town, I'd appreciate you stop OMGUSing and discuss with me about who the wolves are instead of fighting a fight you won't win.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also to be transparent about who I am as a person, I appear very aggressive and one-track minded when it comes to things (not always, but sometimes) when in actuality I'm not and it's just how I articulate myself in games as it's effective. If you are Town, I feel you're hitting that aggressive part of me as you're the person I'm directly focusing on and that's confusing your read on me. I would love to talk with you about things if you want to genuinely try and get to know how I feel about things but pushing me for pushing you is just not something I want to waste time arguing against

[JacksonVirgo]

Well... me not having any strong scum reads is a bit annoying innit.

Lack of reads is a common scum-tell owo.

Also, why would you open up discussion only to just hammer and stop the discussion?

[JacksonVirgo]

scum-reads*

[JacksonVirgo]

Ergo, from where I'm sitting, I will not ever be voting him this game.

That's fine, I town-read him anyway.

[JacksonVirgo]

Well, while it’s nice to be confirmed by you, I fear we still have the main choice between the neighbors just as difficult to make. I personally feel like it’s the worst and ZZZX, but I can’t discount the possibility of Jackson being scum instead—but at least one of the neighbors is certainly scum.

I mean, if the solve is ZZZ with either ducky or me. We should be flipping ZZZ and then solve between ducky and me. I will case ducky super hard, as it's clear he's very very likely wolf. I think the only world he isn't is if RN is wolf and that's incredibly unlikely as I said when I made my D2 catch-up

[JacksonVirgo]

hindsight is 20/20 so huge pinch of salt but as of page 3, i think my pred + passenger are really towny

Your pred was a whole nothing burger with weird awkward logic

[JacksonVirgo]

none of these present as earnest scumreads. there is also a marked difference in the way jackson manoeuvres around zzzx's slot vs. the way they talk about my slot and passenger. they are doing as much as they can to keep doors for potential eliminations open, rather than actually find townreads & limit the pool of suspects.

the way they ignore the conversation about a potential 2x scum hood is also pinging because fmpov it's clearly in jackson's best interest to let that wifom live on in the hopes that if they are caught, i'm still a viable misyeet after them.

You say I haven't presented as earnest scum-reads, which is just false. It was clear I SR ZZZ for what he's done, and then Passenger for being called out on a pure lie that I noticed. You're misrepresenting my entire D2 position, stop that.

[JacksonVirgo]

Plus you forget all the work I put in when I came into the game when nothing socially was ever happening.
D1 ended prematurely and then the game decided to focus on a mass-claim. So I had to sift through RVS and then D2 mech-plays.

Don't act like I should have been able to be on my top scum-reading game with so little to go off.

[JacksonVirgo]

I wonder if it could be a Worst/ZZZX team.

Yeah those two and then Passenger were like my decided 2/3 PoE. Mostly due to me not thinking anybody else could be wolf apart from those three. I TR you, I TR steady, I TR wiz. I SR ZZZ I null-read blue at the time.

I didn't really see a world where those weren't the case, I guess until you cased up wiz yesterday but that's all cleared up now.

[JacksonVirgo]

I still have questions regarding heipizhu replacement.

Thus my gut points at your slot, Virgo.

What are those questions

[JacksonVirgo]

Uhh, ok

[JacksonVirgo]

You ignore every single time I try and get your thoughts on the game state and now you refuse to elaborate why you gut-ping me. Kinda frustrating in limlo

[JacksonVirgo]

Do you not have thoughts outside of the replacement?

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't see how I'm burying other peoples arguments, I've been trying to actively get peoples thoughts this entire game even if it goes against my reads. even if it's against me directly as with passenger, I asked them to explain to me their thoughts on me. I feel that's a little unfair to say to me

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm just very vocal

[JacksonVirgo]

That being said, can you spill your thoughts to me? What are you thinking?

[JacksonVirgo]

I’m personally solving between ducky, zzz and RN and while I believe it’s almost certainly zzz. RN and ducky occupy a conflicting slot imo as there’s no way they’re both real. And I know I’m town from your own poe

[JacksonVirgo]

That being said I don’t believe it’s RN

[JacksonVirgo]

Lmao zzz literally just said he TRs wiz and RN, had no read on me (aka SRs worst) and then said he’d vote me over worst, lmao

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson, you're online right now.

Come in and post!

Oh I forgot to say it here too. Ima copy paste

Hey, Ima be transparent without spilling my life story as this is a game but I've gotta take care of my mum and she lives out in the middle of woop woop so I won't have much internet for a bit, if at all (service is dog water out that way). 72 hours max but really shouldn't be that long. Sorry guys, surely you understand.

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm planning to hammer. I don't think you're a wolf but you claimed TA and barely had any response to the existence of a Mailman. Why is that?

[JacksonVirgo]

When a Mailman gives you a positive result

[JacksonVirgo]

It gives a positive yeah. Meaning, the mailman is either one of the neighbours. Which makes absolutely no sense mechanically. Or it's zzz, and they are obviously avoiding claiming it.
Wiz also made the insight that mailman might be fake-claiming it themselves to hide.

[JacksonVirgo]

Traffic Analyst

"Note that merely having access to a private topic is not necessarily enough to be able to communicate; there will have to be a second living player in the private topic in question to communicate with. To be precise, the role will give a "can communicate" result on a player who shares a private topic with another living player, and also on roles that can use active roles to relay messages via the moderator (such as Mailman); and a "cannot communicate" result on anyone else. (In particular, a Neighborizer will give a "cannot communicate" result unless they have another living player in their private topic.)"

[JacksonVirgo]

It gives a positive yeah. Meaning, the mailman is either one of the neighbours. Which makes absolutely no sense mechanically. Or it's zzz, and they are obviously avoiding claiming it.
Wiz also made the insight that mailman might be fake-claiming it themselves to hide.

I just checked the wiki and yeah Mailman is included as "can communicate," which is interesting. I had targeted Hu Tao Night 1 and Animated Wiz Night 2.

Mhm meaning it's you or zzz. And you being a mailman and a TA is just the dumbest thing. So is giving that clearing option to a neighbour. So it's literally just zzz and you.

[JacksonVirgo]

Also if JV was Scum and Worst was Town, JV would have hammered immediately for game.

So there's no way both he and ZZZX are Scum. It's one of the other.

I appreciate you're pure balls with that btw and I'm glad you didn't do that with me cuz that would have landed us into a loss.

[JacksonVirgo]

Here's why I think ZZZ is the Mailman though.

1. It can't be Wiz due to your check.
2. It can't be you because mechanically it doesn't make sense. It's also confirmed to not be you and ZZZ I think due to being in hammer range.
3. It can't be the neighbours as the same reason as RN it doesn't make sense. They're already clear from the TA. And the TA is the focus of this setup hence why the doc and the neighbours all exist.
4. What scum mailman would target ZZZ last night. That makes zero sense

[JacksonVirgo]

It gives a positive yeah. Meaning, the mailman is either one of the neighbours. Which makes absolutely no sense mechanically. Or it's zzz, and they are obviously avoiding claiming it.
Wiz also made the insight that mailman might be fake-claiming it themselves to hide.

I just checked the wiki and yeah Mailman is included as "can communicate," which is interesting. I had targeted Hu Tao Night 1 and Animated Wiz Night 2.

Mhm meaning it's you or zzz. And you being a mailman and a TA is just the dumbest thing. So is giving that clearing option to a neighbour. So it's literally just zzz and you.

I don't understand why you're saying it's me and ZZZX. Please explain: I'm Townreading you and I'm certain it's Worst and one of you or ZZZX, but I'm leaning on ZZZX who feels like he's given up/lacks the resistance and paranoia that you're currently giving off, which signals to me that you're Town or very good as Scum.

Oh. I'm saying as the Mailman options it's only you both and I don't think it's you.

[JacksonVirgo]

It could be possible that there aren’t any actual Neighbors if both Jackson and the worst were scumteam and one was informed about the existence of a Backup Neighbor. This way, one could be a Werewolf Messenger and the other could be a Informed Werewolf, and they would still have good defense if a TA checked either.

Why are you basing your arguments around a possible informed role

[JacksonVirgo]

It could be possible that there aren’t any actual Neighbors if both Jackson and the worst were scumteam and one was informed about the existence of a Backup Neighbor. This way, one could be a Werewolf Messenger and the other could be a Informed Werewolf, and they would still have good defense if a TA checked either.

That's also incredibly stretchy, like it's the biggest possible stretch and if you weren't checked I would feel you're pushing a hard agenda here.

[JacksonVirgo]

I’m not saying it’s definitely the case, but I’m countering the argument that it could only be ZZZX and Random Nurse.

It requires scum to pair up HARD. It would mean blue/worst/me etc (in the world where we're both wolves) all pushed each other knowing it would immediately kill the other if they died, as they won't flip neighbour. No, just no. I respect arguments against me, that's the fun of the game but this one is a huge no

[JacksonVirgo]

Why am I thinking Wiz is still wolf here. Is there a way?

Is it possible it's a sole scum + traitor? Is that normal eligible?

[JacksonVirgo]

It would make sense as to why a Mailman could exist

[JacksonVirgo]

Traitor is normal permitted.

[JacksonVirgo]

Eh idts, but I think we do actually lose here if Wiz is left alive with me vs ZZZ. They seem pretty hard tunnelled on me

[JacksonVirgo]

I’ll be quite honest, I’ve started to feel that Jackson is scum alongside the worst. If it’s the case, I would be rather upset that I went along with Jackson’s reasoning on D2, but it would be stupid to bury my head in the sand and not have my reads fit the evidence so far.

You seem like a lovely person and a good player, but I don’t feel like I can trust you any more, Jackson. I feel like you’re protecting the worst here and it’s just not adding up for me.

Why do you think I'm scum. Protecting ducky? How am I protecting ducky? I feel your read on me is based on nothing but gut and you're just trying to justify the gut read. I've been incredibly transparent on how I feel on what. I've wanted to make sure everybody understands. I wanted to make sure I understand everybody else. Which was the argument you used against me before. SO I really think you're following your gut and putting logic over wherever it fits. Which if you're Town, please address this because you're making me believe Town just instantly loses when it goes into zzz vs myself (assuming RN is town here like I think)

[JacksonVirgo]

I think one Wolf plus a Traitor might be rather weak and swingy, as one lucky elimination D1 ends the game immediately since the Traitor gets endgamed.

Yeah I just think you're ultra-tunnelled Town. I'm just trying to make sense of what I find to be unnatural from you

[JacksonVirgo]

Like please, if you're Town please case me so I can at least feel that it's not an immediate loss once we get into F3.

[JacksonVirgo]

I do feel a bit worried about JV taking his sweet time hammering Worst.

Why would I hammer now? When we're discussing?

[JacksonVirgo]

I just… ugh!

This is really hurting my head, but to me, your logic hasn’t been as ironclad as it was on D2, Jackson. You don’t seem to be acknowledging my actual arguments here, and discounting them for reasons that don’t feel secure.

I’m still focused on going for the worst as our elimination here, and you seem to be adverse to that elimination despite it agreeing with what you’ve said in the past—that’s why I’m starting to scumread you now. An Informed Wolf is far more likely than a solo Wolf in my opinion, and my suggestion neatly explains a lot of the information we have so far. I’m not going to discount my gut, but I’m also doing my best to not solely rely on it.

To me, the worst makes the most sense as scum, and either ZZZX or you are the fellow scum. Please stop standing in the way.

I've been having RL issues my guy. And that doesn't really mean anything, it just means I don't have the effort I did going into D2. Nothing more, nothing less.

What arguments have I been discounting? The only I remember is the scum not being neighbours one, which I didn't discount as much as I just countered it. There's a difference. I feel that line of logic is foolish so I called it out as such. What does an informed wolf have to do with anything regarding me? Even if one does exist, that doesn't mean anything outside of confirmation bias of which you are known to fall into constantly. I just don't feel comfortable being in a F3 with you because I don't believe you will look at things logically anymore. And ofc scum won't kill you knowing you'll just gang me asap.

I'm not fucking standing in anybody's way. How dare you say that I am.

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't want to have to deal with worrying about somebody hard tunnelling me when the logic is super clear it's ZZZ and ducky and you're refusing to ever listen because of whatever logic you're saying. And while I believe ducky to be wolf, I feel like as soon as it's F3 of me, you , zzz. We just immediately lose. I don't want to play and argue a game where the deciding factor is someone who follows a tunnel over logic. I don't want to waste

my

time trying all game, carried it on my back for a decent amount of time only to lose to you and a foolish tunnel.

[JacksonVirgo]

And I bet this is gonna turn around and be like "oh u protected ducky" when it's super SUPER CLEAR that that is not the case at all. I am playing for the endgame, not just todays flip and the endgame at this rate is ducky dead followed by me and that's a loss. And that idea repulses me

[JacksonVirgo]

Repulses me not due to the fact that it will be me getting limmed in LimLo. It's that it'll be due to you tunnelling me rather than seeing things as they are

[JacksonVirgo]

Worst is THE optimal yeet for today.

I can't remember—did ZZZX dance around/avoid/resist voting Worst?

For today, yes. I agree.
But not if it means I get chain-

limmed

and we lose when the people actively thinking are all dead

[JacksonVirgo]

Worst is THE optimal yeet for today.

I can't remember—did ZZZX dance around/avoid/resist voting Worst?

They did from memory.
D1 they were also awful.
SoD2 they were awful.
I explained these in my catch-up as well. Which I keep asking people to respond to and nobody does.
They're also the extremely likely Mailman.

It's literally just ZZZ and Ducky and I'd be stoked as hell for winning this game as you and me have the same ish conclusion and evne if you did SR it seems you can listen to reason but I just have no hope anymore tbh

[JacksonVirgo]

JV, Wiz is confirmed Town.

If you're both Town and both in endgame I NEED you two to work together.

I'm willing to cooperate as I have even with my SRs all game. I just don't trust he will

[JacksonVirgo]

He is so conf-biased that he honestly believes that the chance of me not being a neighbour after everything that happened, and I just lied about being a neighbour pairing HARD with my wolf bud is greater than ZZZ just being mailman.

[JacksonVirgo]

I just got no faith anymore. I feel we lose once we flip a wolf, which is a preposterous idea and it kills me to my very core. Imagine getting into the mindset of thinking we lose if we flip a wolf, that's literally insane.

[JacksonVirgo]

Can you solve me and ZZZ today.

[JacksonVirgo]

I will say one thing: the neighbor claim would be proved upon seeing the worst flip. If the worst is a Neighbor Wolf and not a Mailman or Informed or anything, then I’ll gladly concede that I was wrong. I am not deadset on you, Jackson.

Okay, break starts now.

I don't believe you

[JacksonVirgo]

If you're one to genuinely believe the possibility that that absolute clusterfuck is more likely than ZZZ being mailman, it's proven to me that you cannot reliably solve this game and therefore I'm probably not going to try to play going into tomorrow. A simple occam's razor destroys your entire thing and yet you pretty much stand by it. It actually baffles me how much you're confirmation-biased.

[JacksonVirgo]

Can you solve me and ZZZ today.

I feel that puts a lot of undue pressure on him. I took have been trying to sort you two, I feel more likely to hammer ZZZX over you, but I'm not 100% sure either way.

I will say one thing: the neighbor claim would be proved upon seeing the worst flip. If the worst is a Neighbor Wolf and not a Mailman or Informed or anything, then I’ll gladly concede that I was wrong. I am not deadset on you, Jackson.

Okay, break starts now.

I don't believe you

I don't see how it helps Town saying this.

It's either them having the pressure, which you and I will also share. Or the entirety of the game is hinged on his conf-bias and whether or not he can put that aside and think logically. I'm gonna be completely honest with you, I probably will stop trying for tomorrow which almost guarantees a scum lim. I don't have the time or effort in my life to argue with someone that tunnels like this in limlo, I can't waste my time anymore brother.

[JacksonVirgo]

Normally I'd fight the good fight, but I need hope that things can actually turn around for that. Which as you can probably tell, I don't have

[JacksonVirgo]

ZZZX and JV are the two claimed Neighbors, and they both cannot be Scum or they would have hammered by now.

Therefore, the Neighborhood MUST exist because why would a Town Neighbor lie?

So Worst and JV slots claimed Neighbors.

IF Worst flips as Scum but NOT a Neighbor, THEN that would mean JV lied about being a Neighbor.

SO, we need to know whether or not Worst is a Neighbor. That fact could break this game wide open.

1. There's a backup neighbour.
2. Why would a setup be designed of which the main mechanic is having scum fake-claim a particular thing.
3. It would mean our predecessors were going for our lims (mainly blue was going after my slot), which would immediately out the fake-claim.

Thinking that there's a likely possibility that it's fake is just the dumbest thing, I'm sorry but it's true. Even a double scum neighbourhood is more likely than that, that's insane.

[JacksonVirgo]

If you're genuinely arguing that, I'm probably done with this game

[JacksonVirgo]

ZZZX and JV are the two claimed Neighbors, and they both cannot be Scum or they would have hammered by now.

Therefore, the Neighborhood MUST exist because why would a Town Neighbor lie?

So Worst and JV slots claimed Neighbors.

IF Worst flips as Scum but NOT a Neighbor, THEN that would mean JV lied about being a Neighbor.

SO, we need to know whether or not Worst is a Neighbor. That fact could break this game wide open.

1. There's a backup neighbour.
2. Why would a setup be designed of which the main mechanic is having scum fake-claim a particular thing.
3. It would mean our predecessors were going for our lims (mainly blue was going after my slot), which would immediately out the fake-claim.

Thinking that there's a likely possibility that it's fake is just the dumbest thing, I'm sorry but it's true. Even a double scum neighbourhood is more likely than that, that's insane.

There existing a Backup Neighbor does NOT mean there are Neighbors.

Years ago I either ran or played in a game that had a Backup Cop but NO Cop. They can do this in Normals.

Dude. The entire setup design revolves around it.

So it's either a setup designed around actual neighbours OR. The setup is designed around scum fake-claiming neighbours.

The latter is absolutely dumb. Don't make this argument

[JacksonVirgo]

Now if we're not gonna do what I asked. I'll hammer ducky and then I guess just have town lose.

[JacksonVirgo]

Then I guess this is my last effortful post. GG to the wolves, the wolves I caught so early in the game that it's hilarious we still lose

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Ducky
hammer

[JacksonVirgo]

I AM NOT SAYING THEY CAN'T BE BY THEMSELVES
Holy shit

[JacksonVirgo]

That isn't what I'm saying

[JacksonVirgo]

Are they not hammered? F I wanted that power

UNVOTE:

[JacksonVirgo]

I did my best this entire game only to lose because of two people (of my alignment) who won't budge from their mindsets and fail to see how Wiz is literally going to hard-tunnel me. I don't have the energy to fight that, and ZZZ, as a wolf, clearly is voting me immediately. It's a loss, simple as that. Scum won't kill Wiz, why would they when they get such a free Limlo lim.

And you're refusing to listen to me. And I don't know whether that's cuz I'm being an asshole rn or not but it's literally me in a catch 22. You refusing to hear me out even though you say you TR hurts, like how can you not see how they're tunnelled. Telling them "oh babe please reconsider" is not going to do shit.

[JacksonVirgo]

How can you continue to ignore my point.

[JacksonVirgo]

Ducky is wolf. Yes, they're also definitely flipping Neighbour. I know this.
Scum wouldn't hard pair like this and the setup would not be designed over scum making specific fake-claims.
The setup was designed around the TA. Think dude. Please, my wim is hanging on by a thread.
Wiz will vote me.
ZZZ will vote me.

Flipping ducky here gets a wolf in the short-term yes, but it almost guarantees I go out after.
Meaning, me as Town would want to push the other scum. Which isn't happening clearly but that's literally the only way I see Town winning and nobody is listening to me and it's making me apathetic about the outcome of this game rapidly.

I'm not saying to just insta-vote ZZZ. I'm saying use today to solve us both and then flip one today. Because I'm honestly not trying after today. Unless Wiz dies, but that's impossible from my perspective. Why would scum keep the person SRing them alive, and kill the person that is SRing the person they need dead.

[JacksonVirgo]

I also don't understand this anger.

To be honest it just feels out of place.

I'm angry because I see two worlds. One where we flip Ducky and I get chain-

limmed

cuz of wiz's tunnel. The other we focus ZZZ/myself and decide then so we don't have to rely on Wiz's tunnel. Honestly, just doing critical thinking even if Ducky flips a neighbour I will still be focus as the argument of a double scum neighbourhood exists. It's not like them flipping one way or another solves me at all.

It's honestly really fucking frustrating that repeatedly nobody is listening to reason

[JacksonVirgo]

And you both are feeding into the world where I'm going to be unfairly treated in Limlo. You're not even allowing me to be treated fairly by solving me today.

[JacksonVirgo]

1) We eliminate Worst today and discern if he is a Neighbor or not.

2) If he's not a Neighbor it means you're dead.

3) If he is a Neighbor then it's now a toss between you or ZZZX.

4) If Wiz is alive in endgame he should be the one to vote last, because he's confTown.

5) If Wiz is in endgame it's up to him to thoroughly analyze both of you two to come to the best conclusion, BUT ALSO remember that in endgame the player you suspect the least is most likely to be Scum.

6) If

*I*

am the one left alive in endgame, having to sort you two... well, may God have mercy on your souls.

Why the living fuck would scum sync their claims up, only for one to hard push the other. That's dumb, stop thinking like this.

[JacksonVirgo]

Brother, play for the endgame. Think for the endgame. Please, if you don't I'm honestly done with this

[JacksonVirgo]

Wiz in endgame = me dead. That's just what's happening, I don't care for your hope that he'll change. He's new to mafia, he doesn't know any of that logic and I doubt he has the toolkit to be able to counteract his personal biases. I'm as good as dead, so this is literally pretty much the final day to me. Do you at least understand why I am like this? I don't want my effort all game to be wasted.

[JacksonVirgo]

And you both are feeding into the world where I'm going to be unfairly treated in Limlo. You're not even allowing me to be treated fairly by solving me today.

Do you assume I haven't been trying to solve you this entire time?

I'm sure you have brother, I'm saying that you won't be here. I know I am Town, and I know that makes ZZZ scum. That means due to the reads of you both. You're dead. Wiz lives. I don't trust Wiz to solve me. So literally the game hangs on today, and you both are rushing the elim.

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson, why exactly do you think Worst is voting you?

Because I am the scums win-con.

[JacksonVirgo]

He came in absolutely swinging at me

[JacksonVirgo]

The game hinges on me or ZZZ. I don't think he expected to be the elim ngl, I think he expected ZZZ and set up a F3 but didn't turn out his way and he was pushed and now he's stuck with spewing me Town. But he won't spew me Town because Wiz, sorry I'm just really upset at him.

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson, why exactly do you think Worst is voting you?

Because I am the scums win-con.

?

They need one miselim. I am the person they need to miselim. Thus I am their wincon. I did word it a little bad, my bad

[JacksonVirgo]

Jackson, why exactly do you think Worst is voting you?

Because I am the scums win-con.

?

They need one miselim. I am the person they need to miselim. Thus I am their wincon. I did word it a little bad, my bad

Well, I am certain with your charm, ingenuity, and experience you can make a connection with Wiz to see this through.

You flatter me ahaha, but I can't if I can't bring myself to play to my usual standards. I'm losing my desire to play, which I'm sure you can understand at least somewhat.

[JacksonVirgo]

You're not in my shoes, so I don't expect you to fully get it but yeah.

[JacksonVirgo]

By page 30, my thoughts are:

There is a general assumption that RN would be killed instead of Wiz, I think that ingenious to be fair

I think from everyone's POV the worst is already confirmed scum, since everyone had a chance to hammer him if he wasn't, so the discussion is up around who is with him, and the end game will probably be:

Me, Jackson, and RN

Why are you assuming RN will be killed? Also yes Ducky is a wolf.

[JacksonVirgo]

I just got no faith anymore. I feel we lose once we flip a wolf, which is a preposterous idea and it kills me to my very core. Imagine getting into the mindset of thinking we lose if we flip a wolf, that's literally insane.

Why do you sound so... hesitant?

I do agree we need to solve this game today, if we flip wolf, we need to know our next move clearly. but you seem to be really dancing around the topic somehow.

I'm not dancing around the topic at all, it's very clear where I stand

[JacksonVirgo]

If you're one to genuinely believe the possibility that that absolute clusterfuck is more likely than ZZZ being mailman, it's proven to me that you cannot reliably solve this game and therefore I'm probably not going to try to play going into tomorrow. A simple occam's razor destroys your entire thing and yet you pretty much stand by it. It actually baffles me how much you're confirmation-biased.

I think being the one who is forcing the entire discussion of the mailman, which if I was the mailman has ZERO benefits for me, alone proves my point. We already know the mailman is scum, due to their lack of claims, but we also have no real info, hence what I eventually said, mailman should be considered a non-factor eventually with the information we had, because there is one of three cases only:

1- I was a one-shot scum mailman (???) and I wasted it on RN
2- Both me and RN are scum and we are cooking something (already proven it can't be me and RN)
3- Today I used the mailman on the NK target since none else claimed getting mail, yet I didnt do anything else with the mail

Yea it just makes no sense what so ever

Those aren't the only options. You seem to be really discrediting the first option so let me pull that one apart. What stops it from being a combined role. Combined X-Mailman.

[JacksonVirgo]

I think the chance of them both not being neighbors is close to nil, thats a very dumb claim since one getting elim'd means insta losing, idk

Lmao, it coming from you is hilarious but thank you. It's really dumb

[JacksonVirgo]

I don't know the reason you'd have done it. I'm not you

[JacksonVirgo]

Could be a multitude of things
Non-consequtive, Complex (and you hit a VT), 1-shot, Combined. I don't know dude I'm not God

[JacksonVirgo]

And of course you use that to push a LAMIST argument

[JacksonVirgo]

"Look at me, I'm so townie"

[JacksonVirgo]

Mornin'

[JacksonVirgo]

I'd like to formally announce that nobody should vote anybody. Hear me out

[JacksonVirgo]

Alright, I was gonna literally just bend over and lose ngl but given that flip I feel like it's more of an insult to my character to bend over and get killed here. Like ducky flipping informed is such a kick in the teeth considering the whole tinfoil around double scum in the neighbourhood and it probably means that I'm fighting an even HARDER uphill battle than I thought I would be fighting (which was enough to make me apathetic towards the game massively D3) but for the sake of all the dead Town, and for myself even I will do my best.

I've written up a bunch of things in the night (not this part) because I thought it pretty safe to do so and from these flips I was correct but the assumption I had writing those posts was that RN is dying and flipped green which leaves me writing everything with the assumption that I will be alive with zzz and Wiz. Which again, turned out exactly how I expected which is such a kick to the gut ngl. I feel defeated and ultimately I feel like Town loses this because of how this is all going out but again for the sake of everybody I will be trying my hardest to not throw this game.

@Wiz

, please give me the light of day and hear me out today and not fall into confirmation bias. You were left alive after you were so passionate about me being wolf and especially being wolf if ducky were to flip Informed. And he did, and I'm royally and hilariously fucked if you don't notice that you were left alive for a reason over the person that was town-reading me. Even if you do think I'm a wolf from this, and I am sure you do, don't vote yet let me try and convey to you that it's actually me that's the Town and I got pretty heavily dogged over from this setup and how everything went down. The stuff below this paragraph is the stuff I wrote during the night and I also wrote some extras but I won't post it in one post (I'm not sure if there's a message character limit), I tried to keep it relatively vague regarding who I am appealing to because I wasn't 100% who was going to die but again I assumed RN was going to die.

--

I recall Wiz saying that I was scummy because I wasn't acting as I was on D2 and I don't wish to use this as an excuse but I wasn't up to my game as I was because my real-life kinda had me in an emotional and somewhat distant state but I'm back to my normal now and fwiw I am sorry for me being super "oh this is so shit, oh I'm giving up" it didn't help my case at all and now I'm fighting the consequences of that. I am now going to put as much effort in as I possibly can to make sure that Town doesn't lose.

I would like to start by saying that I am extremely good and especially consistent at scum, I know that's probably going to come full swing and bite me in the ass but I am not one to make myself appear paired so obviously. Any scum worth their weight in gold would cut their losses and push their confirmed scum partner, but I didn't. I pushed against it because of the long-game (today, me vs zzz that I don't believe I'd win because of your reads), do you think scum of my caliber (I hate sounding this stuck up, please get my intention) would actually pair this hard on a scum partner that was 100% going out? I feel that's quite an insult to my skill to assume such a thing but I promise I will not be upset at you if you choose wrongly here, it is a game after all <3

[JacksonVirgo]

That’s fine by me—I’d like to have us all have a good discussion before we vote anyone.

I admit, currently I am more suspicious of ZZZX since, if you were scum and truly convinced I’d go immediately for you, you would not have left me alive for D4.

Oh my god, you have no idea how much stress this lifted off my shoulders. I was so so so worried that you were going to just tunnel me. Thank you for considering all worlds, I'll do my best today

[JacksonVirgo]

Regarding a quick case of ZZZ, I didn't put a super duper lotta effort in as I can't really quote stuff when the thread is locked so writing stuff by hand is really frustrating but this is what I got so far. Outlining his early game primarily which is where a lot of his discrepancies compared to his late-game where he has his direction (aka needs me dead). I also did get some mid to late game references in here that I did want to discuss. I wrote this in about half an hour though so like it isn't

everything

Anyway here's the case

32 is them being incredibly apprehensive for jumping into the conversation, and considering their recent demeanor this is at conflict with their general personality meaning it would be either as a joke or it's due to them being afraid to stick their neck out early, and as proven by 51 it was in fact

not

a joke meaning it's scum!AI. In 51 they are incredibly and overly cautious around placing their vote. They specify that it's a serious vote, in which why would Town ever need to disclaim that? I know, because they aren't Town and they're acting incredibly cautious as a way to save face. He also contradicts himself in this very post as he is saying that it's a genuine read with reason behind it BUT also only a vote because he has no other read elsewhere which at raw value is a logical contradiction. He then acts LAMIST (if you don't know, that means they're posting in a way that pretty much says "Look at me, I'm so townie", aka doing things for the image) with the E-2 statement which is both unneeded and just reeks that he's being overly self-conscious because he is afraid of harming is image.

In post 108 he once again is

incredibly

apprehensive to place their suspicions on RN and instead if resulting to cheap shading and discrediting. Not having the balls to commit to the read, they're afraid of putting themselves into the heat and again, it's proven that this is not how they typically act meaning it's them afraid for a

reason

and that reason is clearly because they're a wolf.

ZZZ also has a completely different appearance vs his actions, especially surrounding him wanting to wait to discuss around EoD2 but as soon as he appears, he says his thoughts and then

immediately

hammers it without even waiting for anybody to hop on and discuss. It took him 30 minutes since he started catching up after wanting to discuss to his hammer. There is absolutely no way a Town has such a perspective contradiction.

ZZZ is also the only logical person to be the Mailman. There is no reason for a scum neighbour (which would be me in that world) to have both a Mailman AND a neighbour shot. What's the purpose? There's a Traffic Analyst, I assume it would be primarily to keep the scum outside of the neighbourhood to not be able to get red-checked as easily and the TA is purely a means to clear Town as opposed to incriminate Mafia. It is his problem that he did not claim it when a mass-claim came around, but if mafia neighbour had a mailman, would they not also claim that as it's part of their role? And claiming it does not incriminate them at all? (To clarify, it was my pred that claimed, not me).

[JacksonVirgo]

Lmao realising now that wallposts are really annoying but oh well

[JacksonVirgo]

Regarding Blue/Ducky's slot all game. I wholeheartedly believe that they wanted me out because it was easy all game and when they repped in, I was literally

the

person that wolves needed out to win and he knew that and pushed me hard and right out the bat. Before I replaced in, my predecessor was an INCREDIBLY easy player to push, in fact Blue pushed nobody else really except my slot. Why would they do this, why would they bus this substantially.

There's also this quote from BlueSnake in 218 that is "If this flips green, kill Passenger next. If this flips red, kill me next" which is

clearly

them attempting to set up two miseliminations. Why would they openly ask to get chain-limmed if both of our slots were wolves. This is a slip up both not because it's clearly setting up two miselims but also because the logic doesn't even make sense. Why would they think this way, as a wolf why would they openly welcome a chain-lim of two mafias. And it's very clear that the general public thought it was two wolves in the neighbourhood, so if it genuinely WAS two wolves in the neighbourhood this would be borderline gamethrowing.

Then there's when ducky replaced in, he immediately went for me. He went for my jugular, and clearly from how I was speaking yesterday it wasn't planned to bus. It was clear I wanted ZZZ out and if it was planned for him to distance, wouldn't I then go with that and push him so I am distanced from him? No, instead I purposefully get him to push me while I don't do what's needed to profit from that and instead push away from him? when he's confirmed wolf too I kept to that. If you don't sense that this is a discrepancy for the world where Ducky and I are wolves then I really really have no hope at winning this game for Town.

[JacksonVirgo]

That's all I got, would love to discuss with you when you have the time

[JacksonVirgo]

That's all I got for now, would love to discuss with you when you have the time

[JacksonVirgo]

Glad your real life stuff got settled and that everything is better now.

Thank you <3

[JacksonVirgo]

I'm off to sleep, and then work but after that expect me to be back. I work quite a lot this week which is unfortunate considering it's the final day but it is what it is

[JacksonVirgo]

Ouchies

[JacksonVirgo]

Game content: Zzz is wolf.

Okay bravo going dark, post more in about 8 hours?

[JacksonVirgo]

Considering we do have a little over 4 days left, I think if ZZZX is able to get their defense in tomorrow, we should have enough time to go over everything and vote before we have one day left—at least, I think so?

Mhm, it's kinda hilarious how pivotable this time is and we're all busy lolll

[JacksonVirgo]

Will read now, and it's natural you go to he/him. My username has a male name after all but all things considered I do not care about that but I do appreciate that the host is onto that, that's super cool

[JacksonVirgo]

ii- Jackson was reading the thread, proven by post #604 where he commented on my reads, in the same page where you can see he was voted by TW, yet he has nothing to say except that post. He had nothing to comment on TW when it was put to a situation where only he or TW are the prime vote for the day. In fact he casually ignored the entire situation

I definitely skim-read the game but I wasn't at all invested at that point, the moment I felt pressure from someone I just disengaged because I really did not have the energy to fight against somebody.

iv- Jackson, despite the entire situation, despite it being a clear situation where either he or the worst is scum, DID NOT VOTE. Even once in the entire day phase. When it was Elim-Lo. Wait, correction, he did once, then immeditely unvoted when he found it is not the hammer. What?

A vote is meaningless brother without something to back it up, I prioritise a lot of things and a vote is the least important part of it to me. I'd rather convince people, or discuss with people and I feel the pl;acement of a vote is mostly always just a substitute for discussing where your reads are, a lesser one at that.

v- With the voting situation, me and wiz caused the lim to happen, when the day had 6 hours to go. In a situation where we had to lim or we lose. Jackson didn't seem to give a care in the world. Somehow all the motivation for the early hammer, which would result in some town-cred, is gone when the possibility of a no-lim day and an auto win occured.

Are you talking about yesterday? I was very clearly emotionally driven about the outcome of the day and you're saying I didn't have a care in the world? Are you joking?