Open 888 | Welcome to Feryland! -- End!

[DragonEater70]

Oh! I can't believe the game has started without me. What a miss!

As soon as I received my role PM (which is

GREEN

, btw), I started thinking of amazing RVS openers and came down to two really good ones. Sadly, I can't post them because I just spotted this:

That's right. If you have an issue with Comet you have to go through me first. She's town

How DARE you steal my pocket-buddy? I literally signed up for this game because Comet asked me to (and so I can pocket her).
VOTE: Black

[DragonEater70]

Also this is E-2 but am not unvoting because as you all know, being the first serious wagon is my specialty and I'm not going to give up the opportunity to get voted

Also, just because I've made up my mind to avoid triple posting (or quadruple posting, etc.) this game, I will use this post to note that I like Comet's avatar and I feel it's unfair that my avatar cannot be adjusted to fit the theme of the game unlike hers.

[DragonEater70]

I miss the newbie queue

saaaame

also,

Page 1 reads:
miniscule townlean on Black
miniscule townlean on Comet
super tiny scumlean on Python
no read on VIP/Pigeon (sorry if you don't like these nicknames but I can tell you that I will have trouble correctly spelling your name, and you're welcome to suggest another nickname).

Page 2 reads:
nothing yet.

[DragonEater70]

Well go ahead and vote me

In fact, I'll make you a deal. If you vote me in your next post, I'll join you and vote myself. How's that?

Pedit: wait what. Didn't you have bad vibes from me?

also, scratch that deal, I'm intrigued with Python's statement

[DragonEater70]

Hi

I saw Gimli asking me to talk about Python, but I don't really have time right now so I'm just acknowledging that this was asked and I will have more time later to post.

Thanks for understanding.

[DragonEater70]

Okay so I have a few minutes now. Here's what pinged me about Python:

• First page:
  
  On the first page, they felt pretty opportunistic with their votes - or at least, relative to RVS. I know this is really weak and that's why I called it "super tiny scumlean" and not "auper scummy"
  
  
• tr/sr of me:
  
  I got a minor evil-ping from their OMGUS on me, but I actually felt that the subsequent retraction was townie. Though now I'm not sure it is. It depends on how confident is scum!Pyton about being able to win a 1v1 against me (which I thought they were, but they refuted me calling them "a good player" in Weird Dreams Mafia Redux, so maybe not).
  
  
• Being a react YouTuber*:
  
  Their posts (specifically 31, 43, 48) read like being a react YouTuber. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, that's fine but go read usesPython's Notes PT for Open 880 (where they were an SK).

With all that said, I actually agree with their take that Gimli is townie, and I don't actually think usesPython is all that scummy, but I don't see anyone who's more scummy so am gonna put my vote there.
VOTE: Python

I might also have a meta scumread on them but I am not sure on that so I will only post it after I take another look at their meta.

*Imagine caring so much about grammar you actually correctly capitalize the word YouTube. Oh wait that's me.**
**I also care about formatting as you can easily tell by realizing that this beautifully formatted post is in fact a phonepost.

[DragonEater70]

I am not a fun of VIP's reads, I hard disagree with pretty much all of them except Knott and Kittie (which are still not the most exciting reads ever), but I don't feel it's scum indocatove as much as VIP having a completely different playstyle to me and probably coming from a period of the site history with a very different meta. So I have a tiny townlean there now.

And yes, this does mean I have a scumlean on Knott, but I think there's probably more momentum on Python now so Knott can be a later wagon.

[DragonEater70]

@VIP:
React YouTuber is a term that Python invented(?) which refers to a posting style where you quote and react to a bunch of individual posts, giving your opinion either on the post itself or on its content, rather than engage in a conversation with someone or make independent posts.

Spoiler: slight tangent

Coincidentally this has been my default posting style for a while, and I've reached the conclusion that while it's very effective at getting me townread, it's not very effective at getting others to listen to me. Which is why I've decided to try out a different posting style this game that is much more conversation focused and much less reaction focused.

Btw I meant that 54 was reaction YouTuber-y, not 48.

Also yes, you are totally right that this style of players often flip town. I still don't think there's a better vote than Python right now though.

---

As to Gimli, it's a combination of things.
First of all, I think he's town because I recognize his attitude as similar to what he had when we were town together in past games, though I do not know how he plays as mafia so I can't know for sure.
I also felt posts 45-47 demonstrated a desire to solve the game, which is usually a town characteristic.
I know these are "obvious" reasons that could be faked, but I also have more subtle reasons to townread him which I could give you, except I feel if I did that it would give the impression I townread him more than I do, so I'll stick to these now.
Also this probably sounds scummy as heck to say this last paragraph but since when do I care about being scumread early?

[DragonEater70]

Well I really tried no to a react YouTuber, but sometimes you gotta quote posts in order for your post to make sense contextually (or at least be funny). Oh well, let's get it over with.

VIP's probably town but I disagree with pretty much all of their reads

First of all, wtf Python? You have no business having the same thoughts as me. It's illegal!
HURT WITH A BLADE: Python

Being a react YouTuber*:

We first did that style of posting in Weird Dreams Redux as town tho, and it's what got us to be the single most townread player d1. We mimic'd that in Open 880 cause it works great for getting townread but I don't actually think it's alignment indicative by itself (since it's in our natural townrange and our scumrange is wide enough to be able to mimic it) unless it's part of a larger vibe analysis that tries to find the actually scum indicative part of our posting which is

Gonna let the thread stew before I start posting more, already feeling the nervous energy we get when we're scum

Second of all, I am gonna unvote you because I am nice, but don't expect me to be pocketed by these outrageously logical arguments.
UNVOTE: Python
Hrmph. *crosses arms*

DE you wanna hop on the

tim

knott wagon? it's pretty comfy

Sure, why knott?
VOTE: Knott

You are allowed to vote me for this terrible pun.

---

I didn't want to townlock DE but life is short

That's not fair, you know I have a weakness for people townlocking me. Now I

have

to townlock you back. How dare you!

[DragonEater70]

I realize I have not properly introduced myself, and also that I've (quite rudely) interacted mainly with people I know and not so much with people I don't know.

Sorry 'bout that. Now let me fix it!

First, here's a proper introduction and a tip:

Hi, my name is DragonEater70, but you can call me Dragon! I like geeky things like books and DnD and video games (preferably local multiplayer, so I can have my friends yell excitedly right next to me, rather than through Discord) and Mafia.

My familiarity with Mafia and adjacent games (Avalon and Secret Hitler) spans over a decade, and although it has always been in my top 3 favorite games, I only got into trying the forum version of the game this February (and I got addicted). I think I am in the same boat as Black and usesPython regarding experience on this site - I have played a whole bunch of games (and learned quite a bit), but I still feel pretty new and I have a lot more to learn.

I encourage all the newer players (and returning players, and semi-experienced players) not to be shy and to ask questions if there's something you don't understand, whether it's site terminology, why a certain strategy is being followed, or why someone thinks someone or other is towny/scummy - I know I will

---

And now to addressing the people I don't know instead of ignoring them:

Kittie, I know am late but:

Gimli's pretty obvtown

I dunno... picking on the newb without so much as a "hi" seeeeeems kinda scummy imo

VOTE: Gimli

I totally get the mindset you are coming from. However in this site it is very common to look for any sort of social cue or tiny detail in people's posting (or lack thereof) in search for things that

could

be scummy, and then vote to get a reaction. I don't think your reaction is particularly scummy, but Gimli couldn't know what your reaction would be without voting you, and I guess he did see something about your post that he thought could be coming from scum.

---

Timmer:
Yo I looked at the account you named and it appears you last played here in 2011, over 12 years ago. This makes me feel really young because I was a small child back then who didn't even know English well enough to play Mafia online.
What do you think about usesPython and Afrayed Knott? And what do you think about Comet?

---

Knott:
I know I already OMGUSed, but do you care to explain the vote on me? I thought it was RVS earlier but now it looks more like a serious vote so I'd like to have it explained.
(I know I'm kinda late because you switched to TImmer, but I haven't read the last 2 pages yet so you'll have to excuse my slowness)

[DragonEater70]

Oooooh nice pagetop.

---

This is going to be my first triplepost this game because there's just so much to respond to.
pedit: nvm

you're overtly towny, I don't know how you do it lol (lowkey hoping you're scum and the game is hard)

It's just a combination of good communication skills, my natural charm, and being honest to a fault.

I agree with Gimli. DE70 feels townie so far

Okay if the Newbie Scum Queen herself is calling me town, I guess I must be town. Oh well, I'm just gonna throw myself in the townbin then.
(Did I mention flattery as a skill I possess?)

[DragonEater70]

In other news:

Well go ahead and vote me

In fact, I'll make you a deal. If you vote me in your next post, I'll join you and vote myself. How's that?

Dragon it's page two lmao this is a pretty wild gambit to be doing this early. I mean I'm pretty sure I've seen you do stuff like this as town before so I'm not reading it scummy as I would have with anyone else, but I doubt Python is going to have a solid position on you this early. Feels strange to do a self-vote play when the cases are nowhere near confident yet.

Nooooooooooo

I can't believe Comet rolled scum without me! And on her first scum game, too!

I'm really sorry, Comet. I wish I could be scum with you

VOTE: Comet

---

Also, I did not comment on this due to my self-imposed posting restriction, but I figure better late than never:

she seems rather calm about being suddenly transported to the feywild... perhaps she's an Archfey Warlock?

Wow, I completely missed somehow that you are a DnD GM. That's sick! And you keep becoming more and more awesome every time we play, this has to stop somewhere!

[DragonEater70]

btw if these dividing lines are annoying, let me know and I'll stop.

[DragonEater70]

I didn't want to townlock DE but life is short

That's not fair, you know I have a weakness for people townlocking me. Now I

have

to townlock you back. How dare you!

How horrible that town-locking will be if one of them is scum... (Even more horrible if both!)

fwiw I decided to pocket Comet when I signed up to the game. This feels like a good thought progression though

How horrible that town-locking will be if one of them is scum... (Even more horrible if both!)

Are you somehow insinuating that all 4 of us are scum? Or that scum would mutually townlock like this? In a NEWBIE??

Also I skimmed the rest of the post and aren't you like pushing 6 different people as possible scum? Don't you think it's a bit too many?

[DragonEater70]

Comet is town

I know you are contractually obligated to say this, but unfortunately she's not.

You can tell by the fact that she's not townlocking both of me and you, and her hesitation on us is really forced.

[DragonEater70]

I wanted to make a readslist like the cool kids but I don't have any scumreads yet so it looks weird

Comet

Gimli
Python
VIP
DE70

Timmer
Afrayed
Kittie

I know the struggle

[DragonEater70]

I'm sorry Dragon, I petitioned the mod to put you in a team with me and everything.

Oh I'm sure you did because I would also do it if it were allowed.

I am! I'm doing a big ol' homebrew cowboy western-style campaign right now but with magic and demons chucked in, it's a little stressful NGL but the players seem to be enjoying it

Sounds cool as heck, I need you to tell me more about this outside the game.

Tbf I haven't townlocked you but I have said you're not in my day 1 limpool, that's not *nothing*.

It isn't *nothing*, but the hedge on me just feels really forced, and I see no reason why Python and Pigeon should be higher than both me and Black on your readlist. Like if you gave a good reason to TR them it would be different but i don't feel you have. Also like saying "Black locktown confirmed" and then putting her number 3 in your reads is ???
I feel you are trying to be too logical in how you approach your reads instead of relying on your gut, except that you as town do rely on gut so it really feels off tone-wise and trajectory-wise.

[DragonEater70]

(Irrelevant fact: that "oooooor" sounds much better in my native language and when one of my daughters say that. Try to imagine it. Oh. Never mind.)

I actually tried and it sounds pretty cute.

Dragon, 130 - Care to explain this for someone who doesn't know your/their meta?

I believe I just did in 141

Dragon, 134 - I think you misunderstood me. I strongly think that lock-towning on Day1 is terrible. If someone manages to get into a lock-pair (or even worse, a block) as scum, we'll have hard times later. I'm not saying all these four players (Gimli, you, Comet, Black) are scum. But I strongly think at least one scum is there in these two pairs. Maybe two. Also, it's a possibility that a scum-pair lock-towns each other and when one of them flips scum, people will ignore the possibility that the other one's scum too, because it would be soooo stupid if scums buddied each other...

Okay that makes a lot better sense. I think the scum in this 4 is Comet so you are welcome to look at her posts and judge for yourself.

her. (Him? Them?)

Her.

[DragonEater70]

By the way, you think Comet's scum. Yet you replied to Black that you knew the struggle (of not finding scumreads). Can you explain this?

Sure:
I meant I know the struggle in general, not from this game specifically.
Though even right now as I type this I realize i only have one scumread, which is much too little.

[DragonEater70]

I don't want to speak for Comet but I'm 99% sure that was a joke

I get this, but I still think it's ???

I was also joking when I called Gimli locktown but I would still put him in the top of my readlist right now. And definitely in his own tier* back then, right after I made that post.

*strong townread vs a bunch of weak to moderate townreads.

Pedit: sure, I do have to force a scumread here because it's still early game.

[DragonEater70]

Everyone deserves a cookie because all 9 players confirmed well within 24 hours!

I will happily accept this cookie!

[DragonEater70]

Black are you not gonna push me more?

[DragonEater70]

Well I'm going to sleep.
@Comet, if you are town could you please do something that only town!Comet would do when you come back, so I know I can trust you and then I can townlock you?
Thanks in advance.

[DragonEater70]

One last post before I sleep:
@Comet, does Kittie give you IcetFeelsPain vibes?

[DragonEater70]

Sure:
I meant I know the struggle in general, not from this game specifically.
Though even right now as I type this I realize i only have one scumread, which is much too little.

Okay, that makes sense. Anyway, I can lend you some scumreads if you need some ^_^

Also, those lock-towns are mostly jokes then?

I think you should realize there's more nuance than "100% serious" or "mostly a joke" here. It's not black or white.

Obviously Comet townlocking Black was a joke as she mentioned, but I think Black made it fairly obvious that she's committed to townread Comet.

I believe Gimli had been fairly serious about the townlock but he will probably deny it having been hurt by my saying it was a joke. And for me, it's nuanced - I definitely felt that Gimli was my top townread at that point and looking at the trajectory of the game and of my own feelings about the game, I felt it would make sense that he will continue to be my top townread for a while. Though no, I did not think that the chance that he is scum is equal to 0.0001%, as I think you might have interpreted it.

Also I think you should try to look for more nuances in general. If you noticed, the consensus right now about who is towny and who is scummy is very different from your reads. While that in no way makes you scum or a bad player, I think the reason for that is that you don't try to figure out the hidden cues, mindsets and motivations of posts but just take them very literally - basically ignoring nuances.

Sorry if this sounds like harsh criticism, I'm just trying to teach.

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE: Come

I think I'll have a quick read of Newbie 2112 and Newbie 2119 to refresh my meta on Comet.

Then I will do a full catchup of the last 2-4 pages.

[DragonEater70]

@Comet could you please answer this?

One last post before I sleep:
@Comet, does Kittie give you IcetFeelsPain vibes?

[DragonEater70]

time to catch up on the last (4? 5? maybe 6 pages?) fully. I will do it out of sequence though because I can. @Black please don't scumread me for pulling a Vox though.

What if there was major mod error and everyone is town

I vibe with this because I also had a similar thought that nobody is overtly scummy this game.
So Python can have a town cookie.

(Or if you don't mind me asking, the individual headmate (I think that's the word?) that wrote this can get a cookie. Hope this is not offensive because I have literally zero idea how to talk with plurals).

[DragonEater70]

Wow I think I promised a catchup over 36 hours ago (edit: it was "just" 33 hours ago) and still didn't do it properly. Sorry about that, I'm here now.

page 4:

Spoiler:

VIP did a group read on post 59. Most of their thoughts seem fine, I'm personally not willing to label individual posts as townie or scummy yet as I don't know the site meta, but the "things noticed" were indeed things to be noticed.

I didn't fully get this post but whatever.

I don’t care if you lean scum on me. I play scummy all the time even when town. Which you’d be surprise to hear that I am. So lean away.

Eh, I guess this could be a towny reaction.

FYI everyone - My TZ is GMT plus 4, so I’m playing when the majority of you are asleep, or about to wake up. As far as I can tell anyway..

Do you mainly play in the morning? Because I would assume that if you play in the evening I (UTC+2) and Comet (UTC+1 IIRC) would also be awake, at least.

Dragon it's page two lmao this is a pretty wild gambit to be doing this early. I mean I'm pretty sure I've seen you do stuff like this as town before so I'm not reading it scummy as I would have with anyone else, but I doubt Python is going to have a solid position on you this early. Feels strange to do a self-vote play when the cases are nowhere near confident yet.

Okay looking back, I think what I didn't like here is Comet calling it a "gambit" when it wasn't a "gambit" but I think it's mainly a semantics thing rather than Comet actually scumreading it.

I do find it interesting that you clearly grasp the idea of using votes to pressure people and then proceed to vote yourself. New scum players do tend to be a little scared of starting any conflicts so plays like that come across as a little people-pleasing and non-confrontational. Who's your biggest scumread right now?

I also don't like this very much because I feel the logic here is flawed. Does Comet actually think that the self vote is scummy? It's super NAI.
However her saying it's scummy is probably not scummy in itself because this doesn't read as Comet shading for a push. I'm not sure what this reads as to be frank.

I dunno we will have to wait and see seems everyone is leaning town on Gimli, but is that what he wants us to think?

Although Python was quick to jump on the bandwagon with a follow up vote.

I know I know I read the newbie game play thingy, and RVS is a thing... buuuuuut Python was very bandwagony following votes, not just against me but others as well. very shifty...

OK that's all I'm going to reveal for now.

UNVOTE: Gimli
VOTE: Python

This is the post that gave me IcetFeelsPain vibes, To those not in the know, IcetFeelsPain was the mafia in my first game on the site, and he had this simultaneously cheeky and meek/noncomittal attitude about reads that I feel Kittie also has. This may very well be just a personality thing, but I think it's something to watch out for.

Actually I find that new scum loves to utilise exactly this, asking questions etc. is a great way to appear active in a thread without actually doing any proper reading/content.

This is actually something I strongly agree with.

Yeah that's intentional, we don't actually care who gets wagoned this early on so we just jump on whatever wagons are happening to make number go up and let the people with actual opinions duke it out until we have something to work with

I don't think scum!Python posts this.

Also I like Knott's page 4 posts.

Conclusion:
Still feel weird about Comet but I wanna see where she's going
Knott feels maybe town
Python feels town
Kittie I suspect

Page 5:

Spoiler:

Okay I get Comet's line of thought behind that readlist maybe?

Those posts you mentioned didn't give me the same feeling.

Considering you claim to much more scumreads than the rest, well... don't you think maybe you are missing trs?

As for the end of your post, are you usually that cautious?

Nah I'm playing very differently here to how I usually play, and it's a conscious choice.

I wanted to make a readslist like the cool kids but I don't have any scumreads yet so it looks weird

Comet

Gimli
Python
VIP
DE70

Timmer
Afrayed
Kittie

Actually in context this feels a bit forced and I'm not sure I like it.

Conclusions:
I like Comet a bit more. I like Black a bit less (but not enough to scumread).
VIP is fine.

Page 6

- I already read it so I'm skipping it.
I will note though that in context Comet looks slightly better.

Page 7:

Gimli looks slightly opportunistic in their approach to Comet's wagon in context. Not enough to cancel my townread but I wanna pay more attention to his slot.

157 - Kittie calling VIP correct for his shade on her is weird. Like normally I would say it feels brazen and towny to do that, but in this scenario it feels like she's kinda forcing it? Or at least the whole vibe of her posts just doesn't sound like how a confident/brazen town post would sound. And it definitely gives newbscum vibes.

Because I have actual reasons to townread Python and Pigeon outside of our amicable truce here. For Python I have been consistently agreeing with their posts and even the ones I don't agree with I think their logic is sound. Pigeon I townread because as mentioned I thought his big post was, although I didn't agree with bits of it, still a genuine effort at content and sparked some good discussion with multiple people.

hmpphh fine.

As for why I'm hedging you it's because like I said some of your plays here have been kinda questionable to me - I'm not inherently reading them as scum because I know you do this as town as well but it's weird enough for me to put you in the middle for now and see if you sort yourself further as the game goes on.

This I don't understand because you should know that I do this as town and there's literally no reason to think it's scummy of me - I don't think I've ever done that as scum, ever.
BUT I will admit that you being suspicious of this is not NECESSARILY scummy for you as you could just be a town that's unsure about it.
BLEGH.

Still liking 169 by Python. Also 172.

Dragon #125, "What do you think about usesPython and Afrayed Knott? And what do you think about Comet?" I'm not loving Afrayed at all, and frankly let's just VOTE: Afrayed while I'm sitting on this vibe. I'll get back to you on the other two in a minute, I'm still getting used to reading a game that moves like this, keeping organized is an effing challenge, lol.

Can you please explain what don't you like about them?


I like 174 by Timmer even though it could be faked.

[DragonEater70]

page 8:

From my post, Python and Gimli seem to have a little something going on. feels like more than "we have played together vibes."

This is a weird read to me. Can you please explain it?

but also... comet seems to be overly helpful with all their reads... VIP also seems to be concerned with being read as town. both have lots to say with out saying much just lots of round and round about the same players.

I can see the Comet thing, can you point me to where VIP does that though?

177 by Gimli is a good post. If Gimli is scum here, he has exceptional thread awareness as scum. Either way he deserves some town points for this post.

180 - Hey, look! My last engagement with the game. Hiiiiiii I'm back!

Meh I don't really enjoy reading Knott's posts here. I think he should be town but I don't feel like I want to bother reading his posts.

You seem very absorbed in this campaign, and its pretty repetitive. Of course the worst thing I could possibly do is defend Gimli, but I'm not, as I have no idea about him, other than in the last game I played with him, which is ongoing so I can't really go there at the moment. Then of course if I say anything to refute your comments you could turn that around and say, "see defensive". But its strange that only after 4 posts you feel I am being defensive. Maybe ask yourself why that might be, maybe it might be based on what I have said previously. Anyway, don't want to hang around trying to divert this attention away from me and towards others, as I can see what it is doing now. I am just playing into scums hands. and it doesn't help town at all. So that's where I am now.

Who is the scum into whose hands are you playing? I didn't fully understand this.

Also, I can't see Gimli trying to make us believe that he's town.

This I strongly agree with.

Can anyone tell me whether Kittie's playing in this way all the time?

Huh? That's her first game.

Gimli, 177 - Wellshirt, you're not the only one without scumreads here

Explain?

195 - VIP, I am not sure why but I can't decipher this post. Could you please explain to me what you mean here?

Conclusion (for Pages 7-8):
VIP, Knott and Gimli pretty towny
Timmer has slight towniness
Python is towny

[DragonEater70]

I'm really tired so I'll read Page 9 tomorrow, but here are my current reads:

Gimli
VIP
Knott
Python

Black
Timmer
Comet

Kittie

VOTE: Kittie

(Oh no this is my first triple post this game )

[DragonEater70]

Why you asking?

I'll answer anyway

Spoiler:

When I replaced, not a lot.

I read as much as I could which basically adds up to a summary of the claims, the start (page and a half maybe?) of Day 2 (or Day 3? - the one where the mafioso was voted out and Bianco was the first person to vote them), a bit of the day STD was voted out, and most of the VCs from Day 1 but zero actual content from it.

And obviously I read everything that happened after I repped in.

[DragonEater70]

No wait you read our Notes PT that game you should have seen our comment on that

My Notes PT.

Our Notes PT

Quoting these so that I will read them when I have time

Table of Contents

I'm impressed by you having a table of contents for a notes PT

Yes, I did read a bit from your PT - that's where I took the term react YouTuber from, lol. But I don't really understand why is that important. Do you think it's alignment indicative for me to have missed something you said?

[DragonEater70]

I know you do it as town, but why does that make a play I would normally attribute to scum/scum-aligned no longer scummy?

Because of context

For example, some people might consider being quiet/meek in larger Avalon games towny (because you have less of an agenda and are uninformed and therefore sometimes don't really have anything to say). But if a person is quiet over and over again as scum, I won't think it's towny for them to be quiet.

Other people think that basing your reads on nitpicking and weak reasoning is scummy. But if a player constantly does it as town, then you shouldn't say "oh well I guess I should suspect him

less

because it's him", you should say "oh, he's just doing his usual thing, I shouldn't care about that unless I see something

else

scummy he does".

[DragonEater70]

It's not a full one-on-one comparison but lets say someone has a habit of fake-claiming and they do this as town too - if it later came to light that they fakeclaimed in a game then you'd still be justified seeing it as scummy, no?

This is an awful comparison because fakeclaiming has clear scum motivation behind it, and while town

might

do it here and there, and some town players might be more prone to do it than others, it has no bearing on the fact that it's objectively a legitimate scum strategy that you should look out for. Or basically you could say that given a certain player has fakeclaimed, then statistically they are more likely to be fakeclaiming scum than fakeclaiming town, because fakeclaiming scum are more common (and most players that are known to fakeclaim as town do trueclaim as town most of the time, so this is statistically valid on them too).

On the other hand, what I did here - specifically, asking Python to vote me - has no clear scum motivation behind it*. And while it may (or may not) be true that this action has a high chance to come from scum when you look at a cross section of all players on the site (I haven't actually checked that), when you look at me you will see that this is absolutely something I do as town. So statistically, this makes me towny, or NAI at worst if you think I could be doing this as scum too (despite no evidence that I've ever done anything like that as scum).

*I'm referring to the action in a vacuum, without the WIFOM of "was he doing what he normally does or was he imitating what he normally does", because based on Comet's postings it's very clear she wasn't thinking I was trying to imitate my town meta.

Like, I have taken that you do it as town into account - that's why I left you in the middle of my readlist as opposed to lower down.

This is not how it workssss

It's like saying "self voting is scummy but Alianna has self-voted as town so instead of putting her as full scum I will put her mid tier because she self voted", instead of looking at her content and saying "Oh, that's obvtown. Classic Alianna. Okay she self voted, who cares? She's still town."

I feel so frustrated because I know town!Comet pretty well and I know Comet knows me pretty well so I just don't get how Comet could ever reach the first conclusion instead of the second one.

But what I'm also not getting is why she's doubling down on it which would be a really weird scum move. Okay you know what, nevermind about that. Comet did scumread me for half of Day 1 previously for doing exactly this, I guess it's just ingrained in her outlook on Mafia that this is scummy. Fiinnneeeeeee Comet can be town. Can we vote Kittie now?

[DragonEater70]

I'm not sure I'm wrapping my head around what we're discussing Dragon. What's the point of contention? My post #83 where I said the thing you did was, from my opinion, scummy but not as much in your case because I know you do it as town?

Yes but I just realized it's actually fine for you to scumread me off that because the game you heavily townread me from the start was the one newbie game where I didn't do that.

[DragonEater70]

Okay, I admit I did not properly read Kittie's 157 earlier because it's just painful to read on a widescreen computer monitor. Much easier to read on a phone but I haven't been playing on phone lately. Well anyway I kinda get what she was saying about GImli and Python. Like I don't agree with it, in fact I think it's a pretty silly read (sorry kittie), but there does seem to be some semblence of a thought process there so she gets like half a town point.

Thought once again, um, her thought process reminds me of IcetFeelsPain. Yes I will keep bringing this up because I keep seeing it.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I think VIP sounds kinda crazy for thinking that the ordering of the posts kittie quoted in 157 is suspicious in any way, and makes me think that maybe VIP hasn't even read that post because the thought process there does explain the ordering of those posts. And shading a post (and btw VIP put some serious effort into shading 157) without reading it is, well...

I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader actually.

Anyway, since Comet asked nicely, my limpool is currently:
VIP, Kittie, Timmer

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: VIP

I kinda vibe with afrayed knott

this game is pretty hard

Why is it hard? Knott is townie as heck.

[DragonEater70]

To add clarification to this, my partner plays else where with an experienced group. When I showed interest in wanting to play too, he directed me to this site because they have space for newbs to learn the ropes instead of jumping in cold to a game with a bunch of players who all know each other... which it seems I wasn't able to avoid.

lol that's actually unfortunate, but only 55.5% percent of us know each other, the other 44.4% are complete strangers.

Hey Nameless [that's one of the people that compose Python], isn't my math both technically correct and extremely irritating at the same time?)

[DragonEater70]

IDK DE,

you're being overly sure of things

Isn't that what you TR about me though?

[DragonEater70]

To add clarification to this, my partner plays else where with an experienced group. When I showed interest in wanting to play too, he directed me to this site because they have space for newbs to learn the ropes instead of jumping in cold to a game with a bunch of players who all know each other... which it seems I wasn't able to avoid.

lol that's actually unfortunate, but only 55% percent of us know each other, the other 44% are complete strangers.

(Hey Nameless [that's one of the people that compose Python], isn't my math both technically correct and extremely irritating at the same time?)

EBWOP

[DragonEater70]

Python's hammer is really fucking weird wtf.

[DragonEater70]

Okay guys hold your horses

What happened in these last 2 pages that you went from Python scum to Gimli scum?

[DragonEater70]

Wait

This is not a hammer it's a meme

lol.

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE:

Temporarily because I don't want more "memes" happening.

[DragonEater70]

Why would you stop at the hammer and then come to read this page and ask this?

I saw the hammer, post a response, then saw you guys talking about gimli and responded to that.

[DragonEater70]

okay I'll play along

kinda hate this post tbh

Me too tbh

[DragonEater70]

Erm... it may be only me, but that literally doesn't add up.
You have 2 townreads. 7 players to parse through, clear 3 for the win. 2+7=9, so you have to parse through... yourself, too? 2 are clear, 3 to clear, so you have to clear yourself, too?

It's not only you.

Is Chainsaw Defense still a thing?

Can I get an answer for this?

Idk if it's "a thing", I think all strategies can exist and it's pretty fluid. Sometimes people chainsaw, sometimes they half chainsaw, sometimes they bus and none of these are explicitly "a thing".

DragonEater, 251. There are two things I don't like. Firstly, you post a wall, with this:

> In post 251, DragonEater70 wrote:
> I feel so frustrated because I know town!Comet pretty well and I know Comet knows me pretty well so I just don't get how Comet could ever reach the first conclusion instead of the second one.

Yet you gave him a townread.
Then you ask him to vote for Kittie.

First of all, her*.
Second of all, I explained that I had wrongly assumed Comet had a good meta on me, but as I was writing the post I realized that how she's treating me this game does in fact align with how town!her treated me in previous games, so occam's razor would dictate that she simply doesn't know me as well as I thought she does, and that she specifically scumreads the kind of action I did.

Your vote on me looked clearly opportunistic, like "Hey, here's a wagon, let's fabricate some reasons quickly to move there".

Welp, it's not? I just kinda saw that nobody wanted to vote kittie or timmer, and you were the other person in my limpool.

No, it's just Python trolling. He'd been voting for me before the "hammer".

Please use the correct pronouns for people, it's driving me insane.

Gimli this confuses me. If you thought Python hammered then your unvote doesn't do anything. You seemed fine putting VIP at e-1 so why the sudden fear over a fake hammer test?

Oh okay this is what you guys were talking about.

K I will read the nexr few posts in a bit, but I just want to say good job to Python - this hammer test really brought the game alive lol.

[DragonEater70]

I unvoted cause I thought for a second it was L-1 and not python trolling (don't wanna put anyone in L-1)

What

You thought there were only 2 votes on VIP?

So, technically it's scummy if I don't put a wall-quote in my post when the quote would be way too long in itself? What the actual fork! But then, I'm double-scummy since I did the same with your post, too...

WHAT???

When did I say it's scummy not to wall-quote?

I said it's scummy not to react the way you reacted to kittie, because I got the impression you were trying to shade her without even reading her post.

See above, Dragon's vote was clearly opportunistic.

Earlier you said you are scumreading too many people. You still are. And I'm one of the people you are scumreading who is town, FYI.

> In post 277, Gimli wrote:
> UNVOTE: VIP

> what

I just don't get this.
This made no sense regardless of knowing or not knowing that Python had been trolling.

I agree that this sounds really weird regardless.

[DragonEater70]

Ok that's fair. I would probably just read instead of asking that personally but I don't really think it's scummy. A little performative but not really alignment indicative

Fair

[DragonEater70]

Okay I read Gimli's explanation and I think it's fine.

I'm not ecstatic about VIP but I think the way he handled it wasn't scummy I think.

Back to voting Kittie then.

VOTE: Kittie

[DragonEater70]

Who's scum, Python?

Also, because I want to join in: I think Python's town.

[DragonEater70]

everyone is either a townie LHF or deepscum

do you guys see it

Yep

[DragonEater70]

Heyyyy Comet

Watch out

Your next post is 1000!!!

[DragonEater70]

Probably at least one of VIP/Tim/Knott

I'm down for Tim I guess

I feel Knott is like obvious LHF townie, and I feel limming him would be like the worst compromise lim to ever happen in the history of compromise lims.

Another option is do a sort of hero lim (like hero vig)? And then basically go for Black for the lolz and see what happens once she gets to E-1. I dunno if it's a good idea, but I don't think I have any good idea tbh.

[DragonEater70]

Python you wanted to generate content by jumping on wagons, didn't you? Let's do this.

VOTE: black

NOTE: DO NOT HAMMER BLACK OR YOU WILL BE POLICY LIMMED

[DragonEater70]

Oh cool

Thanks VIP

VOTE: Dragon

[DragonEater70]

Python you wanted to generate content by jumping on wagons, didn't you? Let's do this.

VOTE: black

NOTE: DO NOT HAMMER BLACK OR YOU WILL BE POLICY LIMMED

I'm not interested in a Black wagon tbh

I'll tell you a secret once someone who isn't you or VIP votes me.

[DragonEater70]

1) what would be the purpose between having 2 types of game play for scum or town? If your a regular player would it not make more sense to have a consistent game play to keep everyone guessing?? Just a thought. Having 2 game play types would just tip people off when you are indeed scum. no??

Playing different as scum than as town comes from several reasons:
First, as scum you have a different objective than as town: as town you want to find the scum and eliminate them, whereas as scum you want to eliminate town and look towny enough to avoid being eliminated (or get eliminated but take a few townies down with you). So when you have a different objective you'll do different things. For example, scum players will *generally* be more cautious not to do scummy things than if they were town.
Second, scum generally *do* try to imitate how they play as town, but it's not always easy. As town, you don't know things, and can actually suspect people. As scum, you have to fake not knowing things, and you have to fake suspecting people. And sure, you might be able to fake the same types of suspicions that you would if you were town, but often you can't. For example, when I play Avalon irl, then as scum I often "suspect" the people that the town leader suspects, but not the people that I would actually suspect if I were town, because I find that it's more convincing.

[DragonEater70]

IN what universe that self-vote makes sense?
Why are you technically asking others but Python to vote for you so that you can tell them a secret?

In what universe does voting Black make sense?

I am not asking anyone to vote me. But if anyone does, I'll tell Python a secret.

[DragonEater70]

Nope

[DragonEater70]

Also please explain how the context helps

[DragonEater70]

Dragon why do you keep trying to run yourself up?

IDK, I guess I'm not anymore.
Was trying to bait some reactions with everything I did (including the vote on you). This clearly didn't do anything.

We're ok with a Gimli hero lim

Is this still relevant? I'm bored.

[DragonEater70]

This note feels weird. I'm at e-4...

I was thinking people would jump on the wagon but I forgot this is a newbie game and not a game on the theme queue where people randomly just jump on wagons for no reason.

[DragonEater70]

Oh, was this the reason/secret?

Yeah

[DragonEater70]

Dragon, let me try to tel you once more what my problem is.

VIP, let me tell you what's my problem.

(1) You ask Python about their scumlist. They give 3 names.
(2) You name one of them.
(3) Then you start a new wagon.
For me, it looks like a scum trying to launch a wagon because the current ones are not moving. Pushing me further or returning to Timmer would have made more sense.

(1) You describe what I did.
(2) You ignore context.
(3) You say this looks like scum trying to launch a new wagon, without actually explaining why this looks that way.
(4) You ignore the fact that scum don't "try to launch wagons because the current ones are not moving".
For me, it looks like a player who doesn't really understand what scum are trying to do and therefore finds the wrong things to be "scummy".

[DragonEater70]

Like there's zero critical thinking involved. Can you actually explain me why you think:
(a) That scum!me would rather "launch a launch a wagon because the current ones are not moving" over just let them not move?
(b) That scum!me, but not town!me, would prefer to ignore the options given by Python?
(c) That any of this makes any sense?

[DragonEater70]

And launching a wagon so that people jump on it randomly without any reason is pro-town, because ...............?

Because right now multiple people have expressed that
"I have no scumreads"
or
"This game is dead"
or
"What do we do now?"
or
"This seems like a game state where the scum can just not do anything and we'll end up voting a townie"

And I was trying to spice things up so people have to DO something. If there's a E-2 wagon or even E-1 wagon, people have to react to it in some way. Or they can deliberately not react, but this is in itself a type of reaction. Anyway, the best games I've played were games in which a lot of different people got run up to E-2/E-1 before town settled on the final lim for the day. Games where there's just one person slowly accumulating votes, or all types of dispersed votes, tend to end in a mislim that doesn't lead to any improvement in the following days.

[DragonEater70]

Tomorrow, okay?
It's 22:30 here, I really need to sleep now.

Sure

Also I'm in the same timezone apparently, cool.

[DragonEater70]

Timmer:
1. Do you think Python feigning a hammer says anything about their alignment?
2. Do you think me trolling with votes says anything about my alignment?

[DragonEater70]

Have not yet read Knott's posts, will get there shortly.

First, here's a response/refutation to what VIP says about me (you don't actually have to read any of this except for point 2):

Spoiler:

(1) You ask Python about their scumlist. They give 3 names.
(2) You name one of them.
(3) Then you start a new wagon.
For me, it looks like a scum trying to launch a wagon because the current ones are not moving. Pushing me further or returning to Timmer would have made more sense.

(1) You describe what I did.
(2) You ignore context.
(3) You say this looks like scum trying to launch a new wagon, without actually explaining why this looks that way.
(4) You ignore the fact that scum don't "try to launch wagons because the current ones are not moving".
For me, it looks like a player who doesn't really understand what scum are trying to do and therefore finds the wrong things to be "scummy".

(1) I'm glad that at least we can agree in this point.
(2) I even explained that the context was my problem.
(3) I strongly think you've been trying to build wagons, drive them to E-1 and pull out claims from townies. It was a widely known tactic scum did for rolefishing the town. And I don't think it's not happening anymore - I remember how well it could work.
(4) I think quite the opposite.

(1) K.
(2) But you clearly have no idea of what I was saying in that context. Your case on me is trying to represent me as seriously pushing Black because I feel unhappy that the currently existing wagons aren't moving (these aren't my words, they are yours). However if you actually read 340 and 341, you would probably notice me saying things like "generate content" and "let's see what happens" and "DON'T HAMMER BLACK". It's freaking obvious that this wasn't a serious push, but you choose to paint it as me trying to start an actual wagon "because I am not happy with unmoving wagons" as scum (and btw, do you think town would be happy with the game not moving? I don't fucking get his).
(3) That's really funny because that's something I got accused of doing in my first game here (when I was town), and also something I don't think I ever saw scum do. So yeah I think it's an outdated scumtell.
(4) Well clearly Comet, Gimli and I all disagree with you.

But okay.
EVERYONE: If I'm wrong in (3) and (4) because the game's not working so anymore, tell me.

I answered this above, but just to make it clear: you are wrong.

Like there's zero critical thinking involved. Can you actually explain me why you think:
(a) That scum!me would rather "launch a launch a wagon because the current ones are not moving" over just let them not move?
(b) That scum!me, but not town!me, would prefer to ignore the options given by Python?
(c) That any of this makes any sense?

(a) Why would it be scummier to let wagons not moving (assuming they're on townies) than launching a new one and hoping it gains momentum?
(b) Among their options there were players scumread by you, weren't there?
But again, my question is right above.

(a) Because scum don't usually care which townies are eliminated and when wagons aren't moving then the town sinks in apathy and compromise lims on a townie (unless they get lucky, but as you said you are assuming the wagons are on townies)
(b) How does this answer my question? And I guess yes but not really.

And I was trying to spice things up so people have to DO something. If there's a E-2 wagon or even E-1 wagon, people have to react to it in some way. Or they can deliberately not react, but this is in itself a type of reaction. Anyway, the best games I've played were games in which a lot of different people got run up to E-2/E-1 before town settled on the final lim for the day. Games where there's just one person slowly accumulating votes, or all types of dispersed votes, tend to end in a mislim that doesn't lead to any improvement in the following days.

Is it really working that way nowadays? :-O

Still, there's one thing that disturbs me.
Python's "trollhammer" gave a lot of momentum to this game. Why do you think it was a good timing to do as you described? Especially since there are still players who's given zero reaction on my wagon or the "trollhammer". (Why is it called "meme" anyway?)

I disagree. The trollhammer created a short outburst of activity that quickly faded away once people realized that Gimli was town and they were back to not having scumreads. Just read like the 10 posts before when I did that thing and you'll see what I'm talking about.
I called it a meme because I am a guy that uses slang weirdly sometimes and I saw (or think I saw) people using the word meme with the meaning "lying as a joke / trolling" so I copied that usage.

Now, this makes it the second time that I catch VIP scumreading someone for an action that could

maaaaaaybe

be scummy in isolation, but is completely and utterly not scummy in context. And it feels to me likes VIP is not actually reading people's posts and is just forcing scumreads as much as he can. Now, this COULD be just a village idiot, but from my experience village idiots flip scum >rand, so I think this makes it a good Day 1 wagon. If you want you can also call it a policy lim - do you really want town!VIP in F5? I don't. But again this probably has >rand chance to flip scum, and considering the current gamestate I'd take that over a completely random person.

VOTE: VIP

(Yes, I know this post is "performative". It's how I write. Deal with it.)

[DragonEater70]

I actually really like Knott's posting on the previous page.

I think he's town.

Limpool-wise... right now I've got Timmer, Kittie and Knott. I can potentially be okay with a VIP vote? My hesitation is because his playstyle seems to be based on 2014 days and rather than it being scummy it might just be... how forum mafia was played back then.

Python, Black, Dragon, Gimli makes 4.

What did I do to fall off your list… between these two posts. I haven’t posted in all until now. Or are you completing someone else’s list?

I think you misread what she was saying in that post. She was counting the people voting VIP.

[DragonEater70]

The more I read the more the only clear choice for me is one of Kittie, Timmer or Comet. Where to place my vote becomes an issue for me and it seemed to be an issue for VIP for sometime also. I'm still in two minds on this. he does talk a good talk, like a few others here. in fact Comet Dragon and VIP seem to very good at long posts extolling how the game should be played or how scum or town does this or that. I have read them and find some of the posts very interesting. In Dragons posts I noted the following comment to myself "lots of content and some questions but I don't see them pushing anyone or being helpful". And then I still get a good vibe. VIP has been doing the same thing but he has changed in his content as the game has progressed, he seems to be under pressure, why? Not sure. But then is he trying to swing us in his towniness or is it all a bluff and part of his self proclaimed brilliance at faking town when scum. So based on that:

VOTE: VIP

Okay this post makes me completely rescind my townread on Knott.

What the actual duck.

Knott when did I do "lots of content and some questions but not pushing anyone or being helpful"? Or are you saying I said that about you? Because I didn't

Also I didn't get how your thought process went from kittie/Timmer/Comet to VIP.

[DragonEater70]

The more I read the more the only clear choice for me is one of Kittie, Timmer or Comet.

I'm confused about how you start a post with this and end it with voting outside it.

Oh that's a slight mindmeld.

Comet you can be town for now.

[DragonEater70]

If I'm merely a policy lim, I spend the time I'd spend with that answer with something more useful.

You aren't

You can change my mind with that answer.

[DragonEater70]

(there used to be a post here saying I kinda want to vote Knott but then I saw Python complaining)

K let's vibe!

I think Comet and Python are townie.
Do you agree Mr. Knott?

[DragonEater70]

Comet can you tell me a bit about DnD?

[DragonEater70]

Comet I think we're supposed to be vibing

[DragonEater70]

I'm reading from the perspective that Anen/VIP is town so statistically there's a very high chance that at least 1 scum was on the e-1 wagon out of Dragon, Black, Python and Knott. Black and Python are townreads, Dragon will sort himself out for me later, so that just leaves Knott.

Also I disagree on the E-1 thing cause the scum could be inactive or afraid to vote, or just hiding in the shadows

Check out Day 1 of Newbie 2114 for reference: viewtopic.php?p=13691608#p13691608

[DragonEater70]

Comet no

Wrong!

Comet's vote on you is townvibe.
Try again.

[DragonEater70]

It's a lot of fun but also a lot of work. Also it's really expensive when you keep commissioning art of your characters.

Do you do that as a GM though?

I feel this but subtract VIP with Kittie for me.

Agreed

[DragonEater70]

Why do you think it's opportunistic?

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Knott

Okay I think this is literally the point this game got of RVS and things are getting spicy.

[DragonEater70]

Not wrong but also maths/statistics is the strongest tool I have at this point in the game so I'm willing to use it. That and the fact it felt like the VIP vote was added on at the end as like a 'okay I had this post already written out but I see now that the current leading wagon is VIP and VIP isn't me or my scum partner so I'm totally happy to try and push this wagon to end day 1 with a misexecute so I'm just going to tack on a VIP vote at the end of it'. It seems even more likely when you note the timestamps (#388-#393) cause it shows a lot of it has been written up before and then posted all at once so the idea of then tacking on something at the end of it seems to make sense to me?

Yes that's a valid reason to scumread Knott, but it's not what you said.

You get a naughty point and a town point. Use them wisely.

(Have I taken the vibe mode too far? If so let me know and I'll switch back to serious tryhard)

[DragonEater70]

We swap campaigns weekly so that everyone gets a chance to play.

Ooooh cool

My group has one campaign with one DM so it's a bit different. Also the people in my group have serious concentration issues so it's a pain to play but we survive somehow.

[DragonEater70]

You think the fake hammer stuff fell under RVS?

Kinda? I didn't feel like anything real was going on, and definitely that "hammer" didn't come from scumreading VIP lol.

[DragonEater70]

Like I don't think anything actually alignment indicative happened before page 16 if I'm being honest, and you won't be getting any associatives from anything before that.

[DragonEater70]

Comet I just realized something

UNVOTE:

[DragonEater70]

What you are scumreading is a perceived fake trajectory in his votes, which is indeed scummy. However, the fact that he had pre-written everything, combined with the fact that he didn't complete his train of thought (which I actually tend to believe) result in his (real) trajectory being completely invisible and obfuscated. So you get the same (scummy) effect regardless of whether he's town or scum, basically.

IDK if it makes sense, words are hard. In my mind it does make sense.

Also I voted Knott for calling you scum over a bad reason, however I think I kinda understand his reason now, thence the unvote.

[DragonEater70]

Yes, and I am not sure, what reason do I have to trust you?

She had every reason to suspect you and her vote on you was not opportunistic. Your thought process was objectively obfuscated. I realize what it was now due to your explanatory posts, but you can't blame anyone for seeing it as scummy (which objectively without the explanation, it did look scummy).

[DragonEater70]

however I think I kinda understand his reason now

Just to clarify, I still think Comet is town here.

[DragonEater70]

Why are mistakes scummy?

[DragonEater70]

I started to write a post explaining why I think what you are saying in 460 isn't right and started claiming that you see his mistake not as a mistake but as a "slip" (aka mistake done by scum), then it dawned on me.

You are both looking at "mistake" very differently (why the fuck am I a rational mediator in a mafia game? I'm supposed to be a rational mediator IRL and a goofy town player in a mafia game). But anyway:

town!Knott thinks he has done a genuine mistake in that he HAD a thought process, he just didn't write it. He thinks that doing this mistake has no bearing on his alignment.

Comet thinks that scum!Knott did a mistake by not fabricating a thought process (unless I'm wrong and you think that not posting the fabricated thought process is scummy? Then I'm just out of sorts), and clearly that means he's scum, since town wouldn't make that mistake.

[DragonEater70]

Though tbh I don't really want to be a neutral mediator in a mafia game so I'm gonna go write some fiction stories byeeeee

[DragonEater70]

Have not read the last 2 pages in depth, however Tim has always bewn in mylimpool so happy to join the Volkswagen

VOTE: TimmerRC

[DragonEater70]

VIP I read your reply to me, and fine I get your viewpoint. Yes, it's true that scum would care about certain townies getting limmed over others, I meant in this gamestate it wouldn't really matter.

As far as I remember Comet's posts, I can give him a townread, too.

I know you've already acknowledged your error, but can you PLEASE make an effort to use the correct pronouns? It's actually really irritating.

[DragonEater70]

Honestly my eyes are glazing over when I try to read VIP's 1v1 with Knott. Does it even have a point?

do your thing and let me sheep you

Pocket attempt

Alright alright I'll get up. I lost my job yesterday so I'm just slightly depressed

Aw, that really sucks. Sorry to hear that.




Holy shit this quote wall by kittie is gonna take me a while to get through.

[DragonEater70]

Wow I LOVE kittie's case on Gimli. kittie has really won me over as being town.

In post 48, usesPython wrote:
> Gimli's pretty obvtown

do you think that tho you voted for him twice thus far? this felt like a distraction

I disagree with this, this is how town players often play. If you look at my own play for instance, I went from townreading to scumreading to townreading Comet a bunch. It is entirely believable that Python would vote Gimli (in RVS!) and then think he's townie.

felt "mansplainy" and deceptive.

That's freaking hilarious.

In post 204, usesPython wrote:
Are people really metaing 7 year old games?

I found this interesting when they then went on to do the same thing...

That game is not 7 years old, it's about a month old.

Anyway I'm sold on scum Gimli tbh (without reading pages 21 and 22).

[DragonEater70]

> In post 442, DragonEater70 wrote:
> Like I don't think anything actually alignment indicative happened before page 16 if I'm being honest, and you won't be getting any associatives from anything before that.
Do you actually believe this?

Yes and no. I know some AI things happened, but I also know that I don't really care about any of them to be fully honest? You know how everyone was complaining about nobody being scummy? It was because no one WAS being scummy. The game didn't have anything scum indicative happening. You remember that I had to force a scumread on PAGE SEVEN? Not page 2. Not page 3. PAGE SEVEN. I was forcing a scumread because there was nothing to scumread.
So that's what I mean when I say nothing AI happened.

And when I was saying the game is not out of RVS - yeah obviously it is "out of RVS" in the most literal sense because we're discussing things seriously and not voting people based on their username / alignment in a previous game / random whims.
What I meant was that the game hadn't started for real. The point of RVS is to give the game momentum. One player is being randomly wagoned for zero reason, when suddenly someone places them at E-1. Then people suspect that person (or TR that person, I don't care), and then people start voting the person who did that or the person who had a bad TR on that or whatever, and the game gains momentum.
I didn't feel ANY momentum in the game until page 17. Until that point it was exactly how Python described it - a lot of focus on "who is scum". But no momentum, no vibes, etc.

[DragonEater70]

Unfortunately I'm running out of time so I'll finish the catchup tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

I still haven't caught up, and I am not sure when I will have time to fully catch up (I do intend to do ot as soon as I can), but I skimmed Comet's posts from this page and 2 things:

1. Regarding kittie/Giml: Yes, that's true that town changes their opinions, however I don't see how this should affect my read on kittie? I just liked the thought process and critical thinking there, and Idk if I'm actually scum reading Gimli based off that.

2. I think you are wrong on Timmer being "classic newbtown". Unfortunately I am phone posting and tired so you don't get links, but please go check patchwork's and OMIGRON's ISO's in newbie 2112 or even Comet's, and compare to Timmer's ISO here.
Then have a look at elpis's ISO in newbie 2114 (elpis was scum) and also compare it to Timmer here. Please tell me which ISO Timmer feels most similar to.

[DragonEater70]

So you think the more votes someone throws down then they are scum, is that your bottom line?

If someone is voting a ton, but always for people who already have votes, it pings me big time.

And if someone votes as much as they have and then says they are trying to catch up, it makes no sense to me.

Lots of votes with original thoughts = town

Lots of votes on other people's work = scum

That's a really weird take on me for two reasons:

1. I have in fact voted people for original thoughts. If you actually read any of the context of my votes, you'll see that I have provided cases for all/most of them that had nothing to do with why others were voting them (e.g. Comet voted Knott for not completing their thought in regarding to voting Python (IIRC), and I voted him for voting Comet).

2. The last time I voted anyone was on page 20. The first time I mentioned not being caught up was page 22, and now there are 3 more pages which I haven't read (though I did read page 20 and the beginning of page 21 yesterday). So I'm not "voting a lot and therefore clearly being caught up".

[DragonEater70]

I like Kittie's 498 and 499. I'm still getting newtown vibes here with the things she is choosing to focus on and push. I like that she reevaluated her Gimli/Python solve at the end of 499 and is considering VIP as a Gimli partner instead. It all just feels real to me even if I disagree with some of the reasons and the conclusion

I like this take

I feel like python is playing a

good

game. solid stances, some thread control, relaxed and witty. A good game, but considering how what happened to timmer is what happened with every other LHF probable townie in the game (afrayed knott seems legitimate, so does kitty, for instance), then that means the scum, at least one of them, is doing exactly what python is doing. there are no scummy people left, so we have to look at who looks towny but doesnt

feel

very towny at all.

Interesting, I'll have to review Python when I'm less tired.

Yes that's a valid reason to scumread Knott, but it's not what you said.

Can you explain? It was for Comet's 432

Unfortunately I can't, I'm feeling tired/sick this morning, just check the post you linked and compare it with the one where she originally voted Knott, she gives in this (linked) one a different (better) reasoning than in the original one.

We don't have a problem with Tim lurking beyond its implications on the gamestate, our case on him is that when he

does

post thoughts it's stuff like

VIP did a group read on post 59. Most of their thoughts seem fine, I'm personally not willing to label individual posts as townie or scummy yet as I don't know the site meta, but the "things noticed" were indeed things to be noticed. I'm guessing that much of the tone about Gimli asking about masons is there to get a reaction response from Gimli, so I like that.

Null read overall.

In regards to Gimli, one thing I noticed was a major bit of self-awareness in posts 46 and 47. It was a "it is simply too early for trying to make cases" thing I guess but overly self-aware can sometimes be a scumread for me, so... noted.

I do find it interesting that you clearly grasp the idea of using votes to pressure people and then proceed to vote yourself. New scum players do tend to be a little scared of starting any conflicts so plays like that come across as a little people-pleasing and non-confrontational. Who's your biggest scumread right now?

As for the question though, generally speaking roleclaiming happens when someone is put at E-1 (one vote away from execution) and someone else announces an intent to hammer (cast the final executing vote) and they'll usually give a time-frame (e.g. "I'll hammer in 24 hours.") which gives the person on the gallows a chance to roleclaim so town avoids executing a PR.

I'm chuckling a bit because I just thought "oh, I should go remove that vote from myself" but then here's your post and now it would look reactionary, lol.

I'll do it anyway. UNVOTE: TimmerRC

Technically I'm only a newer player to this site's meta. It has been years since I played but back in the day I played a lot.

In terms of scumreads, the only thing I've got jotted down is that both Afrayed and Gimli seemed oddly defensive in tone in replying to people's thoughts against them considering it is all fluffy early game stuff.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TimmerRC

I’m not defensive at all. But I don’t like you right now.

I agree with usespython in post 100 re: kitty, she reads as a first timer who doesn't seem to have built in self-awareness yet.

I'm realizing that even if it is early and mostly based on jokey things, that making scumreadlists and using/moving votes is an expected tool here, I'm not used to voting this early at ALL. (just read to #112, vip you touch directly on this, so bear with)

Afrayed in 117 he is just very absorbed about how he is being perceived in this game and working hard to define himself for us/to suggest that we see him as he wants us to see him, which I don't love.

Dragon #125, "What do you think about usesPython and Afrayed Knott? And what do you think about Comet?" I'm not loving Afrayed at all, and frankly let's just VOTE: Afrayed while I'm sitting on this vibe. I'll get back to you on the other two in a minute, I'm still getting used to reading a game that moves like this, keeping organized is an effing challenge, lol.

where none of it is

disagreeable

and you just nod your head but it never gives off town vibes

-A

I agree with this take, you just explained why I think this is Elpis 2.0 in a very concise way.

[DragonEater70]

Finished page 21, going back to rest now.

[DragonEater70]

If anyone wants to know, I still feel like blegh.

[DragonEater70]

I actually agree with this somewhat.

This isn't always the case

but I think scum are way more likely to have unoriginal thoughts and votes

Is it the case with me?

[DragonEater70]

Is A short for Alice (from your sig)?

Sorry for the dumb q

[DragonEater70]

K I think I will have an early night. I'll engage more tomorrow / whenever I'm not sick.

[DragonEater70]

Oh, I am finally back in business

And I'm apparently being voted. How nice.

Give me some time to read, will you?

[DragonEater70]

Okay I'm apparently stupid since there was only one person voting me

I based everything on this post:

I feel like limming inside Gimli/Black/Comet/DE is significantly more likely to hit red than Knott/Kittie/Tim/VIP

-A

Yeah I agree with this

yeah but never comet

maybe DE?

which is like the only post I've read since the last time I posted.

[DragonEater70]

You know what, fuck it I'm not reading up.

I have a crackpot theory that mafia this game are Black + one of Gimli/Python.

Now I know you all are going to scream "DE has no original reads!!!!!!!" because apparently the VC has Gimli as top wagon and Python is also a vote. But JSYK I came up with this theory before I saw the VC or all these votes. No I don't have a way to prove this, but ask yourself "if DE is scum that just got attacked for not having original reads, is he really going to do what he is doing now?"

The answer is no because DE is a fucking bad scum player. I have 25% winrate as scum on this site, unlike Black who has roughly 100% winrate as scum. Just as a rough estimate.

Anyway, where were we? Oh yeah, I was supposed to explain my crackpot theory. Let's start.

First of all, my case on Black:

I'm still not 100% convinced Timmer is town but tbh I can see the case for each one of the "newbies" being LHF. So I decided to look at the more experienced players, and I get the feeling that Black is being townread for... not a lot? Like if I actually read her posts in depth, I see exactly what Python described about scum!Black - a lot of agreeable posts but nothing outstandingly townie. It's actually ridiculous that she's being this townread for basically repeating "Comet is town", reacting to a bunch of posts calling them weird, and that's pretty much it.

Like if you actually look at how Black reacted to:

• My fake push on her
  
• Python's trollhammer
  
• Gimli's unvote

It's a bunch of commentary that doesn't actually commit to any reads.

Another thing that pinged me is the readlist in 119 which just sucks.

But what REALLY tipped me off on black was this post:

Spoiler:

378 and 384 - I kinda like these posts by DE. They feel like actual attempts to sort VIP and Timmer

Still, there's one thing that disturbs me.
Python's "trollhammer" gave a lot of momentum to this game. Why do you think it was a good timing to do as you described? Especially since there are still players who's given zero reaction on my wagon or the "trollhammer". (Why is it called "meme" anyway?)

I was thinking something similar. DE said he was trying to spice things up by having people do something, but his whole "let's build some wagons" thing happened right after Python's fake hammer. I think DE even said something like the fake hammer brought the game alive so I'm not sure why DE felt like he had to do something there to spice things up. I like that VIP noticed this too

I like Afrayed's 388. This just feels like a genuine summary of the game from his POV. It seems like he's considering things and altering his view based on those things and I find that townie

I also like 391 and Afrayed's self-awareness that he's defending himself a lot and that people seem to find that scummy. Fwiw I think townies defend themselves all the time. It's pretty NAI. I think the way you defend yourself can be AI though

What did I do to fall off your list… between these two posts. I haven’t posted in all until now. Or are you completing someone else’s list?

I think you're misunderstanding Comet here. 305 was going over the votes on the VIP wagon

395 seems fine but the beginning of the post doesn't quite match the vote. If Kittie/Timmer/Comet are clear choices then why is the rest of the post and the vote about VIP?

I kinda like 396 and 397 by VIP

If you want you can also call it a policy lim - do you really want town!VIP in F5? I don't. But again this probably has >rand chance to flip scum, and considering the current gamestate I'd take that over a completely random person.

I don't like this. It feels like DE is already apologizing for a misfade

VOTE: Knott

Okay I think this is literally the point this game got of RVS and things are getting spicy.

This feels weird too. We've been out of RVS for like 15 pages haha. And I don't think I like the vote on Afrayed here

I can see the thought process behind Comet's 432 but I don't necessarily think Afrayed's vote had malicious intent

438 feels honest. 441 is a good follow-up

Like I don't think anything actually alignment indicative happened before page 16 if I'm being honest, and you won't be getting any associatives from anything before that.

Do you actually believe this?

I like 452[post] and [post]453 by DE. I don't think mediating an argument is town indicative but this particular case feels like it. I don't understand the motive behind scum!DE posting these instead of just letting the momentum build on Afrayed. Afrayed/DE could be a partnered I guess but I think it would be risky for DE to stick his neck out like this

Just to clarify, I still think Comet is town here.

Comet is town

I feel like I did pretty clearly state why what he did has scum-alignment in #432. Now yes, he can say this was a mistake and that he actually hadn't completed that post before voting but as I said in #433 this isn't something we can confirm is town!Knott realising he made a mistake and clarifying or if it's scum!Knott realising he made a mistake and is now coming up with a reason for it.

Exactly this. I'm assuming you didn't get the same genuine vibes from Afrayed's posting there as I did?

I dunno, maybe I'm being too harsh/laser-focused here? It's not like we have anything really that strong to go off so this combined with the statistics I mentioned in #419 and the fact that Knott is going to be a hard read this game makes me comfortable with a vote on him.

I think you have a decent point and it feels like you actually believe this instead of you just pushing it based on an agenda. I don't think the case is very strong but we don't really have anything strong atm

I like A's little reread in 467 and 468 and I like the conclusion. Tim feels really lurky

There is one other thing here that erks me greatly, I have had a scum vibe from Comet for a while and her presence on my list has nothing whatsoever to do with her vote on me.

Why haven't you voted for Comet then? Your VIP vote feels a little weirder now after reading this comment

Just ctrl+f "de"/"dragon" in that post, and you will see Black basically saying that she didn't like a bunch of posts I made but also liked a bunch of posts I made and gives like level 0 analysis of what she liked and didn't like "cool you are trying to sort another player, not cool you are preflipping VIP as town" which just doesn't stick out at all. And there's conclusion on my slot. IDK what even is the point of that post. Then I asked her if she thinks I'm scummy for doing something that she considers "sometimes scummy" and her answer is this:

I think you are asking me for a meta read on you here and I don't really have one

This is a laughable hedge.
I feel like Black has been just coasting and blending in without any attempt to find scum.

ALSO, I feel like she's been chopping up conversation, A LOT. You know how Comet and Gimli complained about this gamestate sucking and scum being able to just misfade a random townie easily? Black's posting has been designed to stop as many wagons as possible from occurring, so as to get town to give up and just drift into not solving the game and doing a random compromise vote.

VOTE: Black

[DragonEater70]

And there's

no

conclusion on my slot's

alignment

EBWOP

[DragonEater70]

Afrayed is probably town for thinking there's 3 scum

Also Gimli is at e-1

WTF are these two posts? They are not town posts.

[DragonEater70]

I will explain my case on Gimli/Python later MAYBE, but tbh I just wanna lim Black ASAP and I'm sure this flips red 100% of time.

[DragonEater70]

Why not? This just feels like confirmation bias

It is.

But confirmation bias is not

necessarily

wrong here.

Can you like actually give a read on my slot if you are town?

[DragonEater70]

I know this is lame af but I'm trying to get more sleep these days so I will answer you tomorrow, Black.

Sorry.

[DragonEater70]

Hi, I'm here.
I am not doing a catch up because clearly you guys are averse to catch ups (I'm also averse to catch ups btw), and instead you're just gonna see me replying to some points in a pretty random order. Kk cool stuff.

[quote=usesPython post_id=13945933 post_num=616 time=1697061620 user_id=36963

I disagree, I think you can slot newbies within a few specific archetypes and read them pretty accurately

-A

I agree with this for a true newbie, in the absence of experience and nuance there are definitely a few classic mistakes or styles you can look for. In the case of myself, I'm not new to mafia, I'm only new to the site's gameplay format, years ago I played dozens of games on revolutionmafia, the syndicate, epicmafia, a few others. So I've been quietly bristling(?) at Dragon's attempts to pigeonhole me into a comparison with some other player in some other game, as it is something I can't even defend against. And it feels a bit scummy to try to wrap a label around a player, as if you succeed at it, literally everything that player says from that moment forward would seem corrupted and if you wrong, which he is, you've thrown a wrench into town's play. If I recall correctly, I think he tried to label kittie as well.
[/quote]

Yeah that's fair to be upset about it, but if you notice I'm not rigid in my labels. So I said kittie gave me newbscum vibes but now she feels townie. I don't think there's something inherently bad in using labels/archetypes/comparosons on people, as long as you are not so fixated on them you lose sight of what's happening in front of you.

Like scum!DE can't scumcase that well without just sheeping or going "vibes", him actually tryhard casing here doesn't fit what we'd expect from scum!DE

I'm not familiar with DE's scum game but I feel like it would make perfect sense for him to go into tryhard mode after people suspected him of doing what he normally does as scum

Our point was that even when he was bussing mafia for towncred as part of his 3rd party wincon he couldn't make a compelling case, I straight up think his play here is outside his scumrange

I (unfortunately) agree with this. As I said, I am pretty shitty at scum, and making these kinds of wild cases is outside my scumrange.

Don't worry though, I am working on my scum range, so hopefully in 2-3 scum games (or about half a year from now with how infrequently I roll scum) I might be able to pull something like this off.

let me think

I think black is a townie and as I said before I understand her scumread on me, and I like her posting otherwise, so I think all is fine in that area

I think DE is making a whole lot of nonsense lately and I'm starting to think that hits scum

you're obviously probably maybe a townie

comet is always town and if she is scum or regardless she is my favorite poster this game

afrayed knott is not someone i can agree or read or talk to lol so thats that, maybe a townie maybe a scummie who knows

kittiesecret is fake and maybe scum

This post pinged me as Gimli defending scum!Black by shading me.

[DragonEater70]

Hi, I'm here.
I am not doing a catch up because clearly you guys are averse to catch ups (I'm also averse to catch ups btw), and instead you're just gonna see me replying to some points in a pretty random order. Kk cool stuff.

I disagree, I think you can slot newbies within a few specific archetypes and read them pretty accurately

-A

I agree with this for a true newbie, in the absence of experience and nuance there are definitely a few classic mistakes or styles you can look for. In the case of myself, I'm not new to mafia, I'm only new to the site's gameplay format, years ago I played dozens of games on revolutionmafia, the syndicate, epicmafia, a few others. So I've been quietly bristling(?) at Dragon's attempts to pigeonhole me into a comparison with some other player in some other game, as it is something I can't even defend against. And it feels a bit scummy to try to wrap a label around a player, as if you succeed at it, literally everything that player says from that moment forward would seem corrupted and if you wrong, which he is, you've thrown a wrench into town's play. If I recall correctly, I think he tried to label kittie as well.

Yeah that's fair to be upset about it, but if you notice I'm not rigid in my labels. So I said kittie gave me newbscum vibes but now she feels townie. I don't think there's something inherently bad in using labels/archetypes/comparosons on people, as long as you are not so fixated on them you lose sight of what's happening in front of you.

Like scum!DE can't scumcase that well without just sheeping or going "vibes", him actually tryhard casing here doesn't fit what we'd expect from scum!DE

I'm not familiar with DE's scum game but I feel like it would make perfect sense for him to go into tryhard mode after people suspected him of doing what he normally does as scum

Our point was that even when he was bussing mafia for towncred as part of his 3rd party wincon he couldn't make a compelling case, I straight up think his play here is outside his scumrange

I (unfortunately) agree with this. As I said, I am pretty shitty at scum, and making these kinds of wild cases is outside my scumrange.

Don't worry though, I am working on my scum range, so hopefully in 2-3 scum games (or about half a year from now with how infrequently I roll scum) I might be able to pull something like this off.

let me think

I think black is a townie and as I said before I understand her scumread on me, and I like her posting otherwise, so I think all is fine in that area

I think DE is making a whole lot of nonsense lately and I'm starting to think that hits scum

you're obviously probably maybe a townie

comet is always town and if she is scum or regardless she is my favorite poster this game

afrayed knott is not someone i can agree or read or talk to lol so thats that, maybe a townie maybe a scummie who knows

kittiesecret is fake and maybe scum

This post pinged me as Gimli defending scum!Black by shading me.

EBWOP

[DragonEater70]

I really wish I had more time but I don't so I'll leave you for now but I will get back to expaining my scumcase on Black further at some point today, don't worry.

Also I don't love the vote on me by Black (I just read her reasoning for it and it sucks tbh).

[DragonEater70]

Did Gimli claim?

[DragonEater70]

Too lazy to check if Gimli claimed so I'll just pit this down:

intent to hammer

[DragonEater70]

I know this is lame af but I'm trying to get more sleep these days so I will answer you tomorrow, Black.

Sorry.

So this is just not happening then?

I literally said I would answer this later today, like 2 posts above.

[DragonEater70]

I think its kittie and one of black/de

hammer away <3

Will you wagon Black with me then?

[DragonEater70]

So you got the claim out of Gimli and now you want to get one out of me?

LOL

I knew you'd say that


IDC about claims, I think Gimli's Grim Reaper meme was convincing, and I also realized I can see town!him sussing me because tbh I have not been playing in full tryhard mode like I normally do. Or more precisely I started in tryhard mode and then moved off into crazy shenanigans mode which I don't think GImli is familiar with.

Anyhow, I just feel like you flip red much more frequently than Gimli sooooooooo

[DragonEater70]

Okay time to find instances of Black shutting down convo

[DragonEater70]

Okay time to find instances of Black shutting down convo

Hmm okay first of all I admit that there were several instances of Black not really contributing that I had previously considered "shutting down convo" but should be reclassified as "active lurking". For example, this entire section of her ISO:

Spoiler:

Python you wanted to generate content by jumping on wagons, didn't you? Let's do this.

VOTE: black

NOTE: DO NOT HAMMER BLACK OR YOU WILL BE POLICY LIMMED

This note feels weird. I'm at e-4...

UNVOTE:

I'm having a rough day so I'm not sure how much I'll be able to post but I don't want anyone to hammer before I can catch up

Ok I am here today. Let me make some coffee and then I'll look over what I missed

*camera pans to Black still laying in bed*

Alright alright I'll get up. I lost my job yesterday so I'm just slightly depressed

And I admit that this might've been due to real life things so it's probably NAI.
Anyway the other times I thought she was shutting down convos/wagons:

Spoiler: example 1

My problem is that my traditional scum-hunting route is to ignore day 1, which is usually fluff, and wait for an elim, which in my mafia world usually was within the first 48 hours. Once that happened and then a night 1 death went through or didn't, I would start to analyze how people talked to each other, how they voted and most importantly when, and in what order. I'd look to find where the scum were hidden in voting patterns etc.

But this game so far, I don't see how I can really provide a read yet, because everything that everyone is saying is completely plausible as both town and scum, if they are good players. A good player can EASILY be scum and post pro-townie, ESPECIALLY on day 1. So when you guys are asking me for my thoguhts, I have none because I've got NOTHING that feels truly scummy to point to. Any of the posts made in this game up to now could easily be either alignment.

Meh. I like this post and I agree with a lot of what is being said here. I think I'm ok letting Timmer cook D2

UNVOTE:

Spoiler: example 2

I actually agree with this somewhat.

This isn't always the case

but I think scum are way more likely to have unoriginal thoughts and votes

Is it the case with me?

I think you are asking me for a meta read on you here and I don't really have one

Spoiler: example 3

Right after I made my case on Comet:

Comet is town

Also like saying "Black locktown confirmed" and then putting her number 3 in your reads is ???

I don't want to speak for Comet but I'm 99% sure that was a joke

Meh this is a lot weaker than I remembered.

UNVOTE:

[DragonEater70]

Black if you think that I should have issues with people townreading you, why don't you have issues with them yourself? Do you think the townreads on you are pure?
Because I still think you are actively lurking and not contributing and honestly Python is right that this is scum indicative.

[DragonEater70]

If you're not gonna hammer on a VT claim then it's not intent to hammer

Okay, let me explain something. I thought of this on the way back home from work:

I think there are two conflicting worldviews here about wagons. Mine, and all of yours.

You guys think it's scummy to change wagons after E-1. I understand why. You think we should give scum as little info as possible, which is, in a vacuum, a good thought process.

But you forget what is town's main weapon - pressure. Pressure, and nothing else, will make scum reveal themselves as scum. Scum can just chill in the sidelines as long as they have 2 votes on them. WHo even cares about 2 votes? I don't. But when they get to E-1, when you see how they handle the pressure, that's when you can REALLY determine's a person alignment.

Scum thrive in an environment with low pressure - where no wagon ever gets over 2-3 votes, for instance. If only one person gets to E-1 every day, then town has a pretty low chance to lim scum that day, in actual fact. The best town games I've seen were games where town worked together to exert a lot of pressure on scum AND on town. The worst town games I've seen are games where the entire day went by with no real pressure on anyone and then a random wagon got limmed at deadline.

I'll give an example:
Conception - I got ran up to E-1, claimed, and then everyone unvoted and switched for Rautherdir - who was scum. While I did claim a role that wasn't VT, this was role madness and my role was actually pretty useless, so it wasn't as much "being a PR" as it was just handling pressure well and sounding townie. Or take Newbie 2112 - I got to E-2 TWICE within the first page, not even due to RVS votes. I handled the pressure well and got townread. then 2 others including a PR were "intent to hammer'd" before we settled on a scum lim. And you might say that town misplayed and we should've limmed the first claimed VT (who was scum), but by continuing we actually managed to solve the game and find his teammate on Day 1.

On the other hand, here's a game where nobody but the lim of each day was E-1'd (not counting RVS). This game was a resounding town loss where scum intentionally left alive two strong town players because these strong town players had NO CHANCE to prove they are town by REACTING TO PRESSURE.

And this, my friends, is why I acted the way I acted this game. I wanted to get people to E-1 outside of RVS. Even myself if necessary. And I think that Gimli's reaction to pressure was pretty townie, so yeah I'm TRing him.

[DragonEater70]

On the other hand, here's a game where nobody but the lim of each day was E-1'd (not counting RVS). This game was a resounding town loss where scum intentionally left alive two strong town players because these strong town players had NO CHANCE to prove they are town by REACTING TO PRESSURE.

Had they been put at E-1, I am CERTAIN they would have reacted in a very townie way and I am CERTAIN they would have been more townread so that scum could not leave them alive

EBWOP

[DragonEater70]

I think Gimli is town. Though I'm also not sure if we keep pushing for E-1's and role claims at this point. If not Gimli then who is the other execute candidate? I've got Knott and Dragon in my limpool.

This reasoning sucks


If you think Gimli's town you should vote elsewhere. No amount of "not giving scum info" is worth a mislim, especially when you don't have solid scumreads (and I know your sr of me isn't solid because I read 848, I am not dumb).

[DragonEater70]

DE I kinda think you're tunnelling on Black and that her alignment is independent of your case here, can you leave her for later when we have more flips to work with?

Okay can you give me an alternative wagon to work with then?

Because I'm TR'ing you and Gimli and IDK who to vote.

[DragonEater70]

I feel compelled to elaborate on my Gimli TR, because it does appear to be quite mysterious:

First of all, I feel like scum!Gimli would've claimed a PR because he really didn't have anything to lose and would've at least outed a PR.
Second, I re-evaluated GImli's scumread of me and I guess I see why it happened.
Third, I remembered Gimli's townlocking of me feeling really genuine and I think it is genuine after all.

[DragonEater70]

I still think Gimli's scum but we can do a lazy Tim/VIP wagon if you want?

Can you sell me on scum!Gimli?

[DragonEater70]

Yeah you know what, I'm sold.

I don't like 514 either.

VOTE: Gimli

[DragonEater70]

BTW I wouldn't have hammered if I thought there was any chance of running Black to E-1 but there clearly isn't. And yes, I would want to do that regardless of Black's alignment. I explained why already,

[DragonEater70]

Sorry

[DragonEater70]

I can't believe I threw like that.

[DragonEater70]

No Gimli you don't understand

I should've known your locktown was real

I feel dumb

[DragonEater70]

Yay, now all of my strong townreads are dead.

I'll take this consolation cookie from the mod, thanks.

[DragonEater70]

Feel free to eliminate me because I fucking threw this game.

Or alternatively, if someone has a guilty or a hot scumread, let me know.

[DragonEater70]

No, you are right.

I am trying to get myself limmed so I don't get mislimmed in ELo, lol.

[DragonEater70]

I am intrigued about your 2 scum reads

[DragonEater70]

Hi so this game where black was scum just ended: viewtopic.php?t=91649

I skimmed that game back when it was in Day 1 and Black stood out to me as scum. So that makes me feel slightly better about my scumread of her this game.

Also, please don't murder me if I'm wrong because this was some weeks ago, but I do think Black's treatment of Comet here is reminiscent of her treatment of Aureal in that game. If you really want me to I might check it again later today to really compare.

[DragonEater70]

Python is dead

[DragonEater70]

Or did I misunderstand what you meant

[DragonEater70]

Oh I see

I thought they were killed for being obvtown, so your saying they were killed for reads is interesting.

[DragonEater70]

What's even the point of this case, VIP, if you are just gonna say you aren't scum reading me at the end?

Anyway, saying I'm throwing mud and see what sticks in a scummy way is a weird take. I voted Python and Knott but then I reconsidered and called them town quite strongly. I think there's merit to suspecting everyone as town and seeing who handles the vote well and who reacts in a scummy manner. So far the only people who omgused me are Tim and Black, IIRC.
I agree my vote on Gimli was poop and I regret it whenever I look at this thread, but yeah.

[DragonEater70]

This was written in response to 886, to be clear.

VOTE: Black for scum motivated omgus.

[DragonEater70]

VIP, Knott isn't mafia.

[DragonEater70]

He's not faking covid.

It's also very rude to say that he might be faking it.

[DragonEater70]

I will answer everything later.

[DragonEater70]

>In post 889, DragonEater70 wrote:
>So far the only people who omgused me are Tim and Black, IIRC.
Wasn't I doing the same actually?

No, you were voting me for my posts looking scummy to you, not for a made up reason that boils down to "Dragon is pushing me and needs to be limmed now"

>In post 891, DragonEater70 wrote:
>VIP, Knott isn't mafia.
Show me something why not.
I stated the same about Timmer and I gave some explanation.

Knott sounds like a frustrated townie 50% of the time, and like he's trying to solve the game 50% of the time.

"Black's trying to be away from all the Mis-Elim while hoping that the town does all the dirty work for her."

Yes, exactly. That's a much better take on Black's play this game.

(3) Also, you DID have a lot of original reads. Technically, you DID have a scumcase on almost all of us.

I don't think I didn't have, I think I was defending myself from someone (Tim) claiming I didn't have. Which was OMGUS by Tim.

>In post 818, Afrayed Knott wrote:
>My vote on Back was a genuine failed attempt to lure a hammer onto Gimli and prove my point that Black and Tim are the scum team. which I still maintain.
What the actual fork this meant?

I have no idea, but I don't think this makes Knott scum.

"Or alternatively, if someone has a guilty or a hot scumread, let me know.", which suggest that he knows more about the Setup than we do.

I know that there's a 5/9 chance for an investigative role to exist in the setup, since it's a semi-open setup. I also don't think there are masons (based on associations), unless Black and Comet are masons which would be fucking hilarious. But anyway there's a pretty good chance someone has an investigation role and could have a guilty.

Also, what motivation does scum!me have to even say that? Wouldn't I be the likeliest investigation target after yesterday?

If you have time, that would be of great help.
Personal meta is always more valuable as second-hand.

Not sure what you mean, but I'll try to do it at some point this day phase.

[DragonEater70]

Do note that's E-1 (not that I'm complaining)

[DragonEater70]

Very possibly confbias

I'll tackle this more in depth when I finish work for today.

[DragonEater70]

DE/VIP is my hero solve

I literally can't wrap my head around this. How can you call this a "hero solve" when (a) VIP has been low hanging fruit for most of yesterday, and (b) there was apparently town consensus (at least according to 848 by Comet) that I was second or third most lim-able yesterday after Gimli.

Like for fuck's sake, I started the day by telling people to eliminate me because I know I just don't live to 3p ELo. What is this?

I really have no freaking idea why you would do this as either alignment. As town you should know this is ridiculous, and as scum you have nothing to gain (the way I see it) from trying to spin it as a "hero solve", because you know it will flip green anyway (or at least, I will).

Care to explain this?

[Python] didn't mention Dragon at all.

Yes because Python is apparently the only person here who understands how I play.

Where's everyone?

No clue
Maybe scum lurking, tbh.

Why do you think OMGUS-ing is essentially a scumtell? I consider it simply bad player-tell. In certain situations, e.g., when someone's getting tunneled and scumread regardless of everything they post, it can even be a towntell. Scum can OMGUS too for the same reason, indeed.
Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong here, since I talk about my old experiences.

OMGUS in itself is not a scumtell. Shitty OMGUS that comes not from good reasoning but from "oh fuck this guy's onto me, let's make a up a reason to push him" is a scumtell, in my opinion. I have not verified this statistically.

Since when voting for my scumread has been scummy?
Besides, I was the first one voting for you!

I don't think the problem she has is with you getting her to E-1, I think she's "concerned" (or actually concerned, I mean this can legitimately concern town) about the fact that I said this:

Do note that's E-1 (not that I'm complaining)

instead of yelling "please don't hammer Black!!!!!"

And then for some reason she grouped you into this concern despite this post:

And please, DON'T HAMMER until all players have posted Today.

Right now, only 3 of the 7 players have spoken Today.

Which to me is a bit weird. I don't knwo why she's portraying you as "casual about it".

EST? Or West Coast time (what's that called)?

Pacific Time.

Anyway, to answer Black's and VIP's requests, I will now go and have a look in the finished game. Hang tight while I write my book report.

[DragonEater70]

Holy broccoli, this is a spicy book report.

Okay first of all, I scumread Black because I felt her push on CCGeek felt really disingenuous and in bad faith. I also REALLY disliked her response to Dannflor's early push on her and the flip flop from scumreading and discrediting Dannflor to attempting to pocket him.

Well turns out I was right for the wrong reasons, because CCGeek was actually her scum partner so the push on him wasn't in bad faith, it was just fake.

However, I think I'm also right for the wrong reasons here. Like right now and in the end of Day 1, I felt like Black is not reacting as if I'm wrong, but as if she feels I'm right for the wrong reasons and is trying very hard to discredit the specific reasons I gave, but actually doing nothing to prove she's town. This includes for example saying "yeah the thing with Aureal is nothing like the thing with Comet" or saying "but why aren't you taking issue with the people townreading me???"

These things aren't actual defenses, just deflections.

Also, I might mention that I was actually wrong about Black/Aureal being similar to Black/Comet. That's just my bad for misremembering.

[DragonEater70]

Dragon/VIP/Knott - are you comfortable with the fellow people on your wagon here?

Yeah I'd say that Knott had been my biggest/most consistent TR in the game after Python and Gimli, who are both dead. And VIP's vote doesn't feel scummy.

[DragonEater70]

huge push right out the gate feels off

Care to explain why?

I wanted to push Black yesterday. Nobody listened to me and the person I townread the most told me to vote Gimli, so I did it. Now people are actually scumreading Black so it makes total sense to go after her without hesitating.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry I forgot to say that having looked at Black's play in that finished game, I'd say that while it doesn't perfectly match her play here, it's pretty similar in the overall vibe.

I will admit that I have incorrectly scumread Black in Newbie 2119, but her vibes this game are vastly different than in Newbie 2119 (and in that game, when the moment of truth came, I couldn't even bring myself to vote her). I think her playstyle this game is more similar to her playstyle in Open 885 (where she was scum) than in Newbie 2119 (when she was town).

[DragonEater70]

You actually withdrew your case on Black.

I unvoted and said it wasn;t as strong as I thought. I didn't intend for it to be construed as a complete withdrawal.

What do you think of these two things?
(1) The Black-Knott interaction whole game. Recent hint: she posted this: "DE/VIP is my hero solve" in 903 leaving out Knott ENTIRELY! Ignoring that Knott was voting for her, too!
(2) The way she wants to keep away from MisElim wagons (see my earlier post about it).

(2) I already said i agree with this
(1) Sure I can see that but I also don't think it's that far fetched for her, regardless of alignment, to have a solve that includes 2 people and not 3. Considering there are only 2 scum.

[DragonEater70]

hi im the person that correctly scum read Black in that game Dragon linked

for the record i would not have requested replacement into this game if i didn't think black was town here

Yes you are. Hi!

[DragonEater70]

dragon can you explain how you emotionally went from this:

Feel free to eliminate me because I fucking threw this game.

Or alternatively, if someone has a guilty or a hot scumread, let me know.

No, you are right.

I am trying to get myself limmed so I don't get mislimmed in ELo, lol.

to the confidence of this:

Do note that's E-1 (not that I'm complaining)

I think the lim today should either be me or someone I'm sure is scum.

To clarify, I am not okay with anyone hammering Black at this stage of the Day phase, but I do think pressure is good.



I have a question for you though: what made you feel Black was town before you repped? Maybe I can also see it.

[DragonEater70]

Like for fuck's sake, I started the day by telling people to eliminate me because I know I just don't live to 3p ELo.

then why on earth do you suddenly have the confidence to quick elim Black - even after you admit you could be conf biasing - when you being wrong would mean you're stuck in 5p Elo tomorrow

E-1 is not quick elim

[DragonEater70]

Like I think if someone quickhammer(ed) Black they'd be autolimmed tomorrow.

But maybe I am stupid and that's not how it works in Newbies.

I am fine with being elimmed today, but that doesn't mean I think we should waste this day phase without scum hunting and pressuring people.

[DragonEater70]

How much of this game have you read, Dann?

[DragonEater70]

Hi Dann, are we then to conf TR you as you wouldn't take the role if Black had not been town, is that what you are saying?

No, that's called Out-of-Game Influence and is absolutely not allowed by site rules.

He's just saying he thought Black was probably town before he decided to rep into the game, to which I asked him why.

[DragonEater70]

Okay

Reason I ask is I think you are pretty good at solving, so I am interested to hear:

If you had a mechanical clear on me hypothetically, what would be your solve?

Probably answer this after you finish reading.

[DragonEater70]

Nobody is limming anyone, don't worry.

[DragonEater70]

I have a question for you though: what made you feel Black was town before you repped? Maybe I can also see it.

I'll post about this like exactly once because I don't think this is gonna be very useful for many people in this game. but since you asked

largely, town Black is a lot more reactive than scum Black. Black enjoys scum a lot and she tends to take on a proactive role in her games, whether that's distancing with a buddy or pushing a miselim or just generally sowing discord

Black's early game here is very relaxed and gave me the vibes of her being content to let information filter in and figure out the game that way

it's quite the stark contrast the game i just finished playing with her where within 5 pages of the game starting she'd launched a pretty hefty push against her scum partner and myself and was pretty invested in getting herself town read and establishing herself as a major player in this game

in her town games her approach to the game doesn't focus so much on establishing herself in the town core, she's content to play the detective role and *figure the game out*, and I felt her ISO here matched the latter model much more closely

I... can actually see it.

Very well.

UNVOTE:

[DragonEater70]

like this does not give me the impression you think a quick hammer would necessarily be auto elimmed the next day

I think it should. I know sometimes it doesn't because people are stupid.

[DragonEater70]

My problem here is that not only was it a very quick E-1, it happened when literally none but the three people on Black wagon at the time had even posted. What discussion/pressure was there to even be had?

Good point, but I don't control who is and isn't online. I put pressure on people and wait for them to respond, even if it takes a replacement or 3 real life days for them to respond or whatever.

[DragonEater70]

dragon can you go into detail on your Afrayed read

Absolutely:

1. I liked this, it seemed genuine:

I don’t care if you lean scum on me. I play scummy all the time even when town. Which you’d be surprise to hear that I am. So lean away.

2. He then went on an entire fucking crusade (posts 181 - 190 arguing with VIP and Timmer about why their pushes on him are wrong, while nobody else even cared about these pushes (at least in my perception). I see this as town behavior, because I feel usually scum are pretty hesitant to do stuff like this, since it might draw attention / cause people to focus on why they are being scumread. I also just know that this is more something I've seen myself do as town than as scum. Especially the part of defending yourself from something others aren't even paying attention to - you want to minimize how much attention goes to you as scum, usually.

3. I just feel like his entire game makes zero sense as scum. Unless he's either a VERY eccentric person (which I don't have a reason to think he is), or a super gambity scum player who uses refuge in audacity like a pro (which I also don't have a reason to believe he is), I just don't see scum playing the way that he has. None of his posts feel motivated by a desire to survive to endgame or to find reasons to mislim townies. He's just playing like a really lost townie.

[DragonEater70]

190 says you view Timmer as scummy. 388 says you view Anen/VIP as scummy. 470 says you view Comet as scummy. 480 says you view Timmer as scummy. 565 says you view Black as scummy (because you think Gimli is scum). 567 is your reasoning for voting Timmer. 577 is you saying you're confident in Timmer scum. 647 is you saying once again you view Black as scummy because she's covering for Gimli!scum.

How is any of that relevant to this Black vote/your progression on it...? If anything isn't it pointing to the exact opposite because Gimli flipped town?

I sometimes wish I was as good at this game as Comet.

(Sorry for the pocket attempt, Gimli is dead so I have to have someone to be friends with)

[DragonEater70]

Just as a heads-up it's still between you and Knott right now in my head - I just think Knott's vote was a lot worse than your vote.

I can totally see you thinking that - definitely aligns with my model of how you operate.

Have fun!

Thanks! Sorry it's not working for you though.

[DragonEater70]

Yoooo Merlyn!

Wait, am I supposed to pretend I don't know Merlyn if every time I was on the same playerlist as her, I was a rep-in and she died before I even repped into the game?

Ignoring Weird Dreams Redux, because, yeah.

[DragonEater70]

pg 1-11- I got nothin

pg 12- Ah, a classic python fake hammer.  Gimli, Black, and Comet all dumbtelled, huh?  Yeah that's too many dumbtells

Not DE dumbtelling about it after the fact on pg 13!

Another option is do a sort of hero lim (like hero vig)? And then basically go for Black for the lolz and see what happens once she gets to E-1. I dunno if it's a good idea, but I don't think I have any good idea tbh.

Python you wanted to generate content by jumping on wagons, didn't you? Let's do this.

VOTE: black

NOTE: DO NOT HAMMER BLACK OR YOU WILL BE POLICY LIMMED

I don't understand how you would get anything out of this, though, when you made it so clear to Black she was in no danger?

It's cause am a big dummy

[DragonEater70]

Do you think Comet is scummy?

[DragonEater70]

I'll be honest, I'm not really sure what we do now.

Hopefully Merlyn and Dann will find something that the rest of us missed, because right now I feel like I'm back at square one wrt to finding scum.

[DragonEater70]

Also DE why are you role fishing? 896

Dragon just so you don't miss it....

It's not role fishing

I literally explained why I thought that it's possible that someone would have a guilty because VIP thought it was TMI, which it wasn't.

[DragonEater70]

Kittie, I can confirm that my performativeness is personality, as pointed out by the now-confirmed town, Python:

Python's hammer is really fucking weird wtf.

Wait
This is not a hammer it's a meme
lol.

UNVOTE:
Temporarily because I don't want more "memes" happening.

This 3 together sounds "fabricated" in my mind. I can't put my finger on it why, though.

DE always sounds performative, it's not really alignment indicative for him

[DragonEater70]

Also I believe both Black and VIP repped out for NAI reasons, and would prefer not to speculate about it so as not to angleshoot.

(reason I am not quoting posts is I'm phoneposting, and quoting individual segments of a post is a pain on phone)

[DragonEater70]

Actually you know what, I have a gut feeling Kittie is scum.

Her hedginess, indecisive newbiness, and cutesy innocence and towniness are things that I've seen newer scum players wielding with much effectiveness in the past.

Dannflor is right - I think that if Black was scum, she would be pushing things much more aggressively this game. And that orobably applies to all the veteran players.

And I actually think that from reading the game state, it makes a lot of sense that scum haven't been very aggressive this game, and that instead they laid low and let town tear each other apart. I already had a game like that in the newbie queue, where I locked three other townies as town on Day 1, and then eliminated two of them on Day 1 and Day 2 because they were just 1v1'ing each other while the scum hedged on the sidelines.

I think if you view it in this light, then this game makes a lot more sense.

VOTE: kittie

[DragonEater70]

Knott, you clearly have no clue what roefishing is if you think I was rolefishing.

Setup speculation (which I didn't even do, I just said there was a possibility of an investigative existing) is NOT the same as role fishing.

[DragonEater70]

Do you ACTUALLY believe that if I were scum in column B (which is what you are implying by saying I know the column) I would say "I don't think Black and Comet are masons" and actually expect that this would somehow give me insight into their roles?

I can't believe you actually believe this shit, sorry.

[DragonEater70]

Ok sorry guys, I'm feeling terrible so I won't be able to post until tomorrow probably

[DragonEater70]

I can't believe no one except kittie even paid a single bit of attention to my case on kittie

y'all should be ashamed of yourselves

[DragonEater70]

I do believe it so it’s not shit. Your reaction is also not considered as it’s been before

You can shout as much as you want. I think you are. And No I am considering you are scum in A or C.

Okay, please explain your thought process.

How would scum-in-A-or-C!me would gain anything from saying what I said?

[DragonEater70]

Dann, I guess you decided not to answer 945?

[DragonEater70]

Tbh I feel very weird here because for some unknown reasons people are straight up ignoring all of my attempts at solving and townie things I'm doing and only focusing on the scummy things I am doing (at least according to them. I still feel like calling what I did "rolefishing" is far fetched, but whatever).

The problem is it's coming from basically everyone except maybe Comet and kittie so I don't feel particularly incentivized to try and build a scum case on this.

Honestly maybe I should just self vote and you can do VCA tomorrow ana understand what the fuck is on with this.

VOTE: Dragon

[DragonEater70]

I don't have a solve, that's my fucking point

And I do have a scumcase on kittie but people are fucking ignoring it so maybe they'll listen to me once I'm dead

[DragonEater70]

No

Did you even read my case against her?

[DragonEater70]

You just hammered me.

sigh...

[DragonEater70]

Can you please vote kittie then Timmer tomorrow? Thanks

[DragonEater70]

Is this not the crux of your kittie case? How is that not exactly what I just said?

No

What I said is:

This game, I think it's not a point of contention that it's been hard to form scumreads. I think this happened because scum are hiding this game, and not getting into aggressive fighting.
kittie is actively lurking and not getting into aggressive fighting. This is means that if she is scum, then that explains why we can't find scum - because of her active lurking.

[DragonEater70]

Dannflor/merlyn/Comet, do you want to tell me about your reads before I die? Do you need any convincing on why Kittie and Timmer are scum?

[DragonEater70]

Just in case the thread locks before you come, I'm going to post my thoughts anyway

This quickhammer reeks of scum, there's no single way Timmer and kittie did not coordinate this, look at timestamps.


I find it VERY hard to believe that kittie has these opinions she voices in 1043. Her read progression on me feels quite fake and too convenient.

And this:

Actually you know what, I have a gut feeling Kittie is scum.

Her hedginess, indecisive newbiness, and cutesy innocence and towniness are things that I've seen newer scum players wielding with much effectiveness in the past.

Dannflor is right - I think that if Black was scum, she would be pushing things much more aggressively this game. And that orobably applies to all the veteran players.

And I actually think that from reading the game state, it makes a lot of sense that scum haven't been very aggressive this game, and that instead they laid low and let town tear each other apart. I already had a game like that in the newbie queue, where I locked three other townies as town on Day 1, and then eliminated two of them on Day 1 and Day 2 because they were just 1v1'ing each other while the scum hedged on the sidelines.

I think if you view it in this light, then this game makes a lot more sense.

VOTE: kittie

Is this not the crux of your kittie case? How is that not exactly what I just said?

VOTE: dragon

I believe that's E-1.

Is absolutely not natural either.

[DragonEater70]

K bye for now

[DragonEater70]

The self-vote really screwed us here Dragon, but no point agonising over it. Kittie reading scum into people voicing suspicion of her isn't entirely new (she had the whole vote back thing with Gimli early into Day 1), how confident are you that this is actually Kittie scum behaviour and not just new player getting overly defensive and OMGUS the person pushing at them?

I'd be lying if I said I'm 100% or even 90% certain

But it's the best I have

Sorry for self voting but I got really frustrated and lost all desire to play when everyone's been just sort of circling me like hungry crows. At least the crows revealed thesmelves

@Timmer: if it was an honest mistake, you should ALWAYS ask the mod to clarify first before just assuming it's a mod error.

[DragonEater70]

That sounds like these were nicer times back then

[DragonEater70]

K I'll see you in postgame Comet, and I'm really sorry for my terrible performance this game

This playerlist did not like me.