Mini 2321: Classic Commercials (Postgame)

[Thomith]

I softed in my second post if anyone cares about that.

Just double checked and this does check out.
I think I'm inclined to believe this for now.

Top 2 scumreads?

Dunn and Naerys

We are besties this game

Posts like this honestly have me so unsure how to react to them.

[Hu Tao]

I post those things to get a read on you as well.

[Hu Tao]

But you're town this game, it's pretty obvious.

[Hu Tao]

Okay enough joking around. Let's solve this game

[Hu Tao]

Hu Tao - Town
Dunnstral - Prob not town
Celebloki - Prob Town
Flavor Leaf - Prob town
Bingle - idk
Roden - Town
AnimatedWiz - Idk
RCEnigma - Town
SirCakez - Idk
Thomith - Town
Naerys - Prob not town

Okay game isn't solved. But I'm fine voting in anyone that I don't have as at least prob town

[Dunnstral]

Celebloki is not mafia, they are telling the truth, and no mod error has occured. Explanation coming.

[Celebloki]

FL, I think you're misinterpreting what I mean by low-profile. My plan when I saw the role was to find people I would be comfortable accepting reads from, people I could sheep if I got unsure or confused. You're a wild card and change your mind on a dime. You try gambits and go all over the place. Had I confirmed you and tried to sheep you all over the place that'd look pretty terrible on me. I also wasn't convinced by your D1 VT claim and could see it being a gambit. I thought about confirming it, but ultimately wanted to go for someone less chaotic.

Then of course I could have targeted you and got back not a VT. Doesn't mean your scum, but now I don't know how to handle you. Can't out you in case you were a town PR. Can't trust you either.

My experience so far with Kyouko shows her to be analytical and methodical. I wanted to have her reads and analyzing posts in my back pocket and KNOW that she is town. There's a difference having a strong TR on her and knowing she is conf town. That I could accept her reads as purely townie. I honestly didn't think she's be a NK target.

I may have targeted you eventually, but I wanted to get a core of trusted, stable reads I could refer to.

I should also say I didn't want to check people like Hu Tao or Naerys because they don't post off and can be cryptic about how they form reads. I wanted to confirm people I could actually read analysis from.

Maybe I approached playing neap wrong, but that's the way I wanted to go.

[Flavor Leaf]

Good post. I might be alright going Hu Tao

[Dunnstral]

Why would I say I got a No Result on kyouko if I was lying about my claim though. I could just as easily say I got VT on her. I honestly didn't feel like my crumb was very well hidden and I regretted crumbing it. My best guess is scum have a roleblocker and saw my crumb and used it on me. Might as well flip me, they'll just keep role blocking me so I get no information.

I'm not too sure it makes sense to flip you just because of setup spec of Mafia potentially hand a role blocker that saw your soft, because I dont actually think it was that obvious personally. It's a potential, but there are other things that could explain it instead.

I'd rather keep celeb around for now I think, to see what happens in future nights?

This is a Simple set up, so only Roleblocker and Jailkeeper could have messed with his action. The results he claimed don't match up with the wiki though because he should've been blatantly told that his action failed.

What is wrong with the claim of no result? Is that not when you get when you are blocked?

I always tell myself when I roll PRs, I'm gonna refuse to claim them but I never do. I'm just gonna full claim it and my target.

I'm a Town Neapolitan. My N1 was a waste because I targeted Kyouko. Interestingly I got a 'No Result' response. I assume because she died.

A Vanilla Townie will return a result of "target is a Vanilla Townie"; other players will give a result of "target is not a Vanilla Townie". If the action fails (e.g. due to a roleblocker), the result will be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result".

Yeah, this might actually be a technical scum slip by Celebloki too.


So I should know this, but it’s still new with these tags, Simple labeled games DO NOT give No Result to a roleblocked.

This is specifically different in Simple games is what’s being said?

Every other queue it would have been ‘No Result’

Where does it say that Simple Games have to clarify that an action failed?

It says how it behaves in normal versions on the Neapolitan page.

It says the following:

Normal version

This role is allowed in Simple Normal games.

A Neapolitan investigates a player to determine whether or not they are a Vanilla Townie. A Vanilla Townie will return a result of "target is a Vanilla Townie"; other players will give a result of "target is not a Vanilla Townie". If the action fails (e.g. due to a roleblocker), the result will be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result".

However, it's worth noting that the sample role pm does not mention this at all, this is presumably what caused either Celebloki or potentially even the mods to slip up here:

Example (simplest form)

Welcome to game! You are a

Town Neapolitan.

You have the following active ability:

Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a Vanilla Townie.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

The Simple Normal page does not mention that roleblocks behave as shown in the top.

The Roleblocker page agrees with the Neapolitan page.

The page says the following:

The blocked player will not normally be told that they have been blocked (unless they used an investigative role and thus were expecting a results PM, in which case the moderator will let them know that their action failed). The blocked player will never receive misleading results, e.g. a blocked Tracker will get a result like "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result", and never something like "Your target went nowhere".

The Jailkeeper page

says the opposite

, and for this reason I believe this could have been confusion on what the correct course of action is, rather than Celebloki lying.

The page says the following:

Normal version

This role is allowed in Simple Normal games.

A Jailkeeper that simultaneously blocks and protects their target is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, provided that any mutual blocking scenarios are planned for during review. Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked as a result of being targeted by a Jailkeeper should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target. A Jailkeeper cannot stop a Juggernaut from committing a kill (regardless of who they target), and does not prevent other players from targeting their target with non-killing actions (e.g. if a Watcher and Jailkeeper target the same player, the Watcher will see the Jailkeeper's action).

Highlighting the relevant text above:

Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked as a result of being targeted by a Jailkeeper should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target.

Thus, if the moderator looked to the Jailkeeper page, rather than the Neapolitan page, when determining what message to send out, a message of "no result", while perhaps somebodies mistake, does not seem to be our game mods mistake, and a jailkeeper targeting Celebloki would allow for Celebloki to be telling the truth without any error, despite what the page for Neapoilitan says should happen.

I rest my case.

[Thomith]

Why would I say I got a No Result on kyouko if I was lying about my claim though. I could just as easily say I got VT on her. I honestly didn't feel like my crumb was very well hidden and I regretted crumbing it. My best guess is scum have a roleblocker and saw my crumb and used it on me. Might as well flip me, they'll just keep role blocking me so I get no information.

I'm not too sure it makes sense to flip you just because of setup spec of Mafia potentially hand a role blocker that saw your soft, because I dont actually think it was that obvious personally. It's a potential, but there are other things that could explain it instead.

I'd rather keep celeb around for now I think, to see what happens in future nights?

This is a Simple set up, so only Roleblocker and Jailkeeper could have messed with his action. The results he claimed don't match up with the wiki though because he should've been blatantly told that his action failed.

What is wrong with the claim of no result? Is that not when you get when you are blocked?

I always tell myself when I roll PRs, I'm gonna refuse to claim them but I never do. I'm just gonna full claim it and my target.

I'm a Town Neapolitan. My N1 was a waste because I targeted Kyouko. Interestingly I got a 'No Result' response. I assume because she died.

A Vanilla Townie will return a result of "target is a Vanilla Townie"; other players will give a result of "target is not a Vanilla Townie". If the action fails (e.g. due to a roleblocker), the result will be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result".

Yeah, this might actually be a technical scum slip by Celebloki too.


So I should know this, but it’s still new with these tags, Simple labeled games DO NOT give No Result to a roleblocked.

This is specifically different in Simple games is what’s being said?

Every other queue it would have been ‘No Result’

Where does it say that Simple Games have to clarify that an action failed?

It says how it behaves in normal versions on the Neapolitan page.

It says the following:

Normal version

This role is allowed in Simple Normal games.

A Neapolitan investigates a player to determine whether or not they are a Vanilla Townie. A Vanilla Townie will return a result of "target is a Vanilla Townie"; other players will give a result of "target is not a Vanilla Townie". If the action fails (e.g. due to a roleblocker), the result will be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result".

However, it's worth noting that the sample role pm does not mention this at all, this is presumably what caused either Celebloki or potentially even the mods to slip up here:

Example (simplest form)

Welcome to game! You are a

Town Neapolitan.

You have the following active ability:

Each Night, you may target a player. Assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player is a Vanilla Townie.

You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive.

Confirm by replying to this PM with a summary of your role.

The Simple Normal page does not mention that roleblocks behave as shown in the top.

The Roleblocker page agrees with the Neapolitan page.

The page says the following:

The blocked player will not normally be told that they have been blocked (unless they used an investigative role and thus were expecting a results PM, in which case the moderator will let them know that their action failed). The blocked player will never receive misleading results, e.g. a blocked Tracker will get a result like "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result", and never something like "Your target went nowhere".

The Jailkeeper page

says the opposite

, and for this reason I believe this could have been confusion on what the correct course of action is, rather than Celebloki lying.

The page says the following:

Normal version

This role is allowed in Simple Normal games.

A Jailkeeper that simultaneously blocks and protects their target is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, provided that any mutual blocking scenarios are planned for during review. Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked as a result of being targeted by a Jailkeeper should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target. A Jailkeeper cannot stop a Juggernaut from committing a kill (regardless of who they target), and does not prevent other players from targeting their target with non-killing actions (e.g. if a Watcher and Jailkeeper target the same player, the Watcher will see the Jailkeeper's action).

Highlighting the relevant text above:

Any role that receives results (such as Tracker or Watcher) but is blocked as a result of being targeted by a Jailkeeper should receive a "no result" message, rather than told their target didn't go anywhere or nobody visited their target.

Thus, if the moderator looked to the Jailkeeper page, rather than the Neapolitan page, when determining what message to send out, a message of "no result", while perhaps somebodies mistake, does not seem to be our game mods mistake, and a jailkeeper targeting Celebloki would allow for Celebloki to be telling the truth without any error, despite what the page for Neapoilitan says should happen.

I rest my case.

This makes a lot of sense, and makes me believe the no result claim more.
Again I guess theres still a world where its scum neap?

[Dunnstral]

This is specifically different in Simple games is what’s being said?

Every other queue it would have been ‘No Result’

No, in any normal queue it should be "Your action failed, and you did not receive a result"... is what the Neapolitan and Roleblocker pages say under "Normal version". Confusion stems from it also saying the role is allowed in simple normal games, but the rules are meant to be for all normal games where they are allowed.

[SirCakez]

Can we do Hu Tao or RCE instead?

[Hu Tao]

That's enough effort for me not to want to vote you today Dunn.

How would everyone feel about a Naerys vote?

[Hu Tao]

Can we do Hu Tao or RCE instead?

Both terrible votes

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m of the mentality that Dunnstral’s defense is solid enough for me to not use that reasoning.

However,

i do think that take the out, and all the other reasons that I’ve been stating look strong.

In addition to that, the fact that this push got minimized to being about that front and center, one that has a damn good reason to stand as a good defense, it makes it feel like there’s a solid defense for Celebloki, and that seems like it was put on the stage, when I even thought the other reasons were better to begin with.

Celebloki felt solid in that post. But when I take out tone reading as well, it leans back to them being scum, which is generally a good sign.

@Roden - the similarities to the Yessiree wagon, down to it being on Day 2 both times, are too similar for me to ignore here.

I also hate the defense of “let the night resolve itself” because i know how much i love hearing that when im scum in danger. A clever scum can work around that and craft a mech puzzle narrative that works in their favor.

And in the scenario I am correct about Hu Tao/Celebloki, I am always fake guiltied tomorrow, at the cost of Celebloki, in a situation where they wiggled out a Flavor take down, not the other way around, and Hu Tao gets to brush it off.

It’s just too similar to Yessiree.

In ADDITION, Dunnstral was the other wagon, and I think Dunnstral was town being wagoned.

[Flavor Leaf]

Can we do Hu Tao or RCE instead?

The thing with Hu Tao is you have to cut off the limbs before you get the hydra.

I agree with you, Hu Tao is scum, I’ve given a multitude of reasons that nobody has tried to dispute, because frankly, it’s a damn good case. Even if ends up being wrong, a good case.

I really don’t think we are, but Celeb is a Hu Tao partner.

[Flavor Leaf]

That's enough effort for me not to want to vote you today Dunn.

How would everyone feel about a Naerys vote?

This is also absolutely so political.

Dunnstral defends Celebloki and they conditionally responsed by Hu Tao. Dunn is getting rewarded to help empower Dunn’s spot and reads in the game because it protects Celebloki.

And then they find a compromise wagon in Naerys where did Naerys flips town, it can be brushed off as an “oh well, now we know”, but it TAKES pressure off of Celebloki.

Naerys was poking at Celebloki earlier.


Hu Tao is playing a super heavy political game.

[Hu Tao]

Why are you worried about being guiltied? Last time you said that you were scum

[Hu Tao]

I remove FL from prob town to not sure anymore.

[Flavor Leaf]

did i ruin your planned gambit

And I’m pretty sure i have said that exact thing to you as town before

And you actively do fake guilties as scum

[Hu Tao]

If you can find it, then I'll restore your probably town status. But I only remember you saying it as scum.

And the only time I faked a guilty as scum was when I knew cop had a guilty on me. Why would I do so on a claimed VT?

[Flavor Leaf]

If there are the people for it, I will happily fade Hu Tao, Cakez.

And do you also notice how there were players who scum read me, like Sir Cakez and Dunn, who have moved away from that, while Hu Tao tries to do everything to try and flip their read?

But Hu Tao isn’t actively giving reasons for anything. They just state and conditionally response.

[Flavor Leaf]

If you can find it, then I'll restore your probably town status. But I only remember you saying it as scum.

And the only time I faked a guilty as scum was when I knew cop had a guilty on me. Why would I do so on a claimed VT?

You* wouldn’t. But Celebloki lasting another day gives you plenty of time to setup with 2 extra night kills to trim the bonsai the way you want

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m not gonna look for it, I’m mobile for the time being, but anything i say as scum is because i probably said it as town somewhere.

[SirCakez]

I can't see the town thoughts driving Hu Tao's posts. FL is right that it looks like they are just writing whatever gets them in a better position rather then legitimate scumhunting