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[Thomith]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Hello

[Thomith]

Btw, my initial thought because this game is 12 players and complex is that there's probably only 2 scum but one is a vigilante

I'm kinda disappointed I didn't roll mafia vigilante tbh

Omg maybe inventor could give a gun to scum vigilante if it exists so they can get a triple kill!

[Thomith]

I'm bored

Mood

[Thomith]

This game is boring

I claim mafia

VOTE: DragonEater70

Good thing the scum team are werewolves in this game!

[Thomith]

As always, town

I'm actually townreading this a little

I think scum might be more likely to just say "I'm town" or something but the "as always" feels like it could maybe be legit exasperation

Eh, I feel like it easily could be read the other way (as the "of course" being an overcompensation) to a point of it probably being NAI?

[Thomith]

If I had to give a read of her either way right now, I'd say town for now, due to seemingly beginning to try and solve early in 39

[Thomith]

This game is boring

I claim mafia

VOTE: DragonEater70

Good thing the scum team are werewolves in this game!

This is a serious vote. Based on ~vibes~ so far, Thom seems different right now compared to the game that I was in with him where he was town. I'm not quite sure how to explain it but it feels like he's nervous. But maybe that could just be a basic read since there isn't much to go off right now

I play off the vibes of other players early game until I see something substantial that I can latch onto. DE70 was being jokey, so I was being jokey too.

You are correct though tbf, I am probably playing different than the game you are referencing, because the vibes at the start were different.

[Thomith]

I want to wait for Katsuki to post again, but I do have something I want to say once they do.

[Thomith]

This game is boring

I claim mafia

VOTE: DragonEater70

Good thing the scum team are werewolves in this game!

This is a serious vote. Based on ~vibes~ so far, Thom seems different right now compared to the game that I was in with him where he was town. I'm not quite sure how to explain it but it feels like he's nervous. But maybe that could just be a basic read since there isn't much to go off right now

I play off the vibes of other players early game until I see something substantial that I can latch onto. DE70 was being jokey, so I was being jokey too.

You are correct though tbf, I am probably playing different than the game you are referencing, because the vibes at the start were different.

So based on that, what do you think of my alignment? Do you think I'm town for thinking this or do you think it's something I could make up as scum? Since you did confirm that you are playing different than before when you were town.

More so because of this post than the other one, this feels like almost the exact same way you questioned me during the Micro I think you are referencing, which does make me think you could be scum.

[Thomith]

This game is boring

I claim mafia

VOTE: DragonEater70

Good thing the scum team are werewolves in this game!

This is a serious vote. Based on ~vibes~ so far, Thom seems different right now compared to the game that I was in with him where he was town. I'm not quite sure how to explain it but it feels like he's nervous. But maybe that could just be a basic read since there isn't much to go off right now

I play off the vibes of other players early game until I see something substantial that I can latch onto. DE70 was being jokey, so I was being jokey too.

You are correct though tbf, I am probably playing different than the game you are referencing, because the vibes at the start were different.

So based on that, what do you think of my alignment? Do you think I'm town for thinking this or do you think it's something I could make up as scum? Since you did confirm that you are playing different than before when you were town.

More so because of this post than the other one, this feels like almost the exact same way you questioned me during the Micro I think you are referencing, which does make me think you could be scum.

How did I question you then?

Im on my phone so cant quote amazingly but when you were questioning me early game in that micro you said things like this;

"Could you explain your thoughts on Black? Seems like she's saying the post is not weird, and thus her vote on me is for that. But you admit it is weird since you did it on purpose. What are your thoughts on the discrepancies there."

The line of questioning "you admit X was weird/different" feels almost the exact same.

[Thomith]

Thats basically scum confession
VOTE: Katsuki

Katsuki what exactly does your role do

I think Katsuki’s claim deserves a closer glance
Not sure it’s real but it makes me look askance

These 3 posts about Katsukis claim make me want to keep an eye on these slots.
I feel like it was obvious the Juggernaut claim was a joke, and I do feel like it could be an easy opportunity for an opportunistic scum to jump on that.

[Thomith]

Thats basically scum confession
VOTE: Katsuki

Katsuki what exactly does your role do

I think Katsuki’s claim deserves a closer glance
Not sure it’s real but it makes me look askance

These 3 posts about Katsukis claim make me want to keep an eye on these slots.
I feel like it was obvious the Juggernaut claim was a joke, and I do feel like it could be an easy opportunity for an opportunistic scum to jump on that.

Any thoughts on davesaz?

It feels less potentially opportunistic than the other 3 posts I mentioned so I wasnt overly focusing on it tbh.
I feel like it seems similar to my initial reaction, I just didn't say something sooner because I didn't want to guide your response to the questioning.

[Thomith]

Thats basically scum confession
VOTE: Katsuki

Katsuki what exactly does your role do

I think Katsuki’s claim deserves a closer glance
Not sure it’s real but it makes me look askance

These 3 posts about Katsukis claim make me want to keep an eye on these slots.
I feel like it was obvious the Juggernaut claim was a joke, and I do feel like it could be an easy opportunity for an opportunistic scum to jump on that.

This post actually makes me SR Thom.
VOTE: Thomith

Why?

[Thomith]

I mean tbf he does say it was "obvious"

Eh I could see that this is probably slightly >rand scum

VOTE: Thomith

I felt like from the tone of the post it was quite obviously a joke, and secondly it literally says scum only on the wiki, which we are linked to in the opening posts, which is why I also was pretty sure it was a joke.

[Thomith]

Thomith's mention of werewolves would have made my eyeballs go click but it's a reasonable guess given clues in the rules post.

Wdym?

The anti-town faction would know what their name is. If there were not other clues that it isn't "mafia" like usual, it would be potentially interesting to mention it.

Again, it is literally mentioned in the opening posts that this is a villager vs werewolf game?

[Thomith]

VOTE: Dragon

This feels like scum dragon unfortunately.

Hu plus Thom might be buddies

I'm curious about both of these reads

The way Hu just started to push Dragon, only bcz of her hut feeling feels meh. Could be attempt to lead attention away from Thom

Do you think there couldn't have been town motivation for this?

[Thomith]

I mean tbf he does say it was "obvious"

Eh I could see that this is probably slightly >rand scum

VOTE: Thomith

I felt like from the tone of the post it was quite obviously a joke, and secondly it literally says scum only on the wiki, which we are linked to in the opening posts, which is why I also was pretty sure it was a joke.

Hmmm sure

VOTE: Gamma

UNVOTE:

Why are you flip flopping on your opinions so much?

[Thomith]

The fact that I am getting so much heat for "TMI" knowing that Juggernaut was a scum only role, when we are linked to a page where ot says this, does make me think there is at least one scum pushing me for this as an easy vote (throwing TMI around is an easy way to get a wagon started imo).

I feel like theres a scum in DE70/Gamma Emerald/Naerys because of this.

[Thomith]

Agree Katsuki's post is interesting.
Makes me think it's my first time witnessing a slip, after lecturing people for a couple months on how they don't happen.

Why is everyone so sure of this being a slip and not a joke claim.

Someone claiming an evil role within the first few pages is 99% of the time joking. I mean it could be a 1000000IQ play where they're telling the truth and passing it off as a joke, but really?

FWIW I was pretty sure Katsuki was joking but I asked them in case it was the 1% where they weren't joking

If you were also pretty sure Katsuki was joking, why are you suspecting me for TMI for also being pretty sure it was a joke?

[Thomith]

I disagree

Why do you disagree?

[Thomith]

I rolled a dice and it told me that there is Dragonwolf in this game
VOTE: DragonEater70

Oh noooo how did you find me out so quickly

VOTE: DragonEater70

This game is boring

I claim mafia

VOTE: DragonEater70

VOTE: Dragon

VOTE: Dragon

Let's go.

Why do you do this

VOTE: Dragon

Bad vote

VOTE: Kyuoko

Why is this a bad vote, compared to the other people that voted you?

I really don’t vibe with the Naerys votes
So my current chance of townreading those two is remote

Do you think Naerys is town?

[Thomith]

Gamma posting in rhyme, while I absolutely am enjoying it, is making me find it harder to read it this game.

[Thomith]

Plot twist: Dragon+Black are scum
hopefully thats not true

Other than me, do you scumread anyone?

[Thomith]

Plot twist: Dragon+Black are scum
hopefully thats not true

Still waiting for the day I roll scum with Black

It would be soooo fun

That is absolutely terrifying

[Thomith]

Plot twist: Dragon+Black are scum
hopefully thats not true

Still waiting for the day I roll scum with Black

It would be soooo fun

Please no, i want atleast some chance to win

Don't worry you can be the third scum

Dragon just spewed the entire scum team

*furiously scribbles notes*

[Thomith]

Black and Dragon feel town.
I want to look at Gamma's vote. I have a potentially interesting take on the rhyme gimmick but will need more data to firm it up.
Naerys reason on Thomith feels genuine from memory but I don't think it's correct.
Hu Tao is showing a lot of range on having a variable play style. Despite noticing that I will have to re-read a couple things that I'm not sure on whether they're wrong theory or disingenous.

What makes you feel like Black and Dragon are town?

[Thomith]

VOTE: DragonEater70
I still am getting bad vibes from him jumping on my wagon, seemingly agrees with the reasoning to my wagon, jumped off it soon after saying he thought the same thing I did, then claimed to not have agreed with the reasoning in the first place?

[Thomith]

You are correct about that, but I could see Thomith thinking that as town

I mean tbf he does say it was "obvious"

Eh I could see that this is probably slightly >rand scum

VOTE: Thomith

Agree Katsuki's post is interesting.
Makes me think it's my first time witnessing a slip, after lecturing people for a couple months on how they don't happen.

Why is everyone so sure of this being a slip and not a joke claim.

Someone claiming an evil role within the first few pages is 99% of the time joking. I mean it could be a 1000000IQ play where they're telling the truth and passing it off as a joke, but really?

FWIW I was pretty sure Katsuki was joking but I asked them in case it was the 1% where they weren't joking

Off of tone I think kitty is town here

I agree

The fact that I am getting so much heat for "TMI" knowing that Juggernaut was a scum only role, when we are linked to a page where ot says this, does make me think there is at least one scum pushing me for this as an easy vote (throwing TMI around is an easy way to get a wagon started imo).

I feel like theres a scum in DE70/Gamma Emerald/Naerys because of this.

I voted you for possibly TMI'ing it was a joke, not for TMI'ing that it's a scum only role

Is that a weak reason for a vote? Sure. Did I use it anyway? Yes, because it's early and I don't really have solid scumreads right now.

And that scum is Naerys.

Nah.

Agree Katsuki's post is interesting.
Makes me think it's my first time witnessing a slip, after lecturing people for a couple months on how they don't happen.

Why is everyone so sure of this being a slip and not a joke claim.

Someone claiming an evil role within the first few pages is 99% of the time joking. I mean it could be a 1000000IQ play where they're telling the truth and passing it off as a joke, but really?

FWIW I was pretty sure Katsuki was joking but I asked them in case it was the 1% where they weren't joking

If you were also pretty sure Katsuki was joking, why are you suspecting me for TMI for also being pretty sure it was a joke?

I am not really, I literally told Naerys I thought she was wrong about it, but I could see a world where it was TMI and I decided to put a vote there just to see what happens

Your response was fine so I unvoted

Like I do not understand this progression at all.
It almost feels like he slipped up saying he also felt it was a joke, then tried to cover his tracks when questioned further about it.

[Thomith]

I'll catch up with this game properly later, but happy new year from a very tipsy Thomith

[Thomith]

I don't get what's the slip up thing is about?

I was pretty sure Katsuki wasn't claiming Juggernaut for real, because that would be silly, but I also thought their post didn't really look like a joke post (maybe I'm too used to the overdone humor of gen z or something), and I thought maybe they were claiming a different role, so I decided to ask them about it. Then Naerys said you TMI'd, I said I don't think so, but then I actually reread your post and I thought that there was SOME SLIGHT CHANCE that the way you phrased it could indicate TMI, so I voted you. Then I thought your explanation was fine and it wasn't TMI, so I unvoted.

Where's the inconsistency here? I don't see it.

To me it feels like you were giving yourself an out to my wagon, which it felt like you then used to back off once you "slipped up" and stated you also thought it was a joke.
I dont recall you saying it was the way I phrased it (other than me saying "obvious", which dont see as any different to you saying you were "pretty sure" it was a joke) but maybe I missed that.

[Thomith]

I feel like I'll need to see Kyoukos reasoning for the vote after being questioned for it to fully form an opinion, but I could see it just being a reaction to you continuing to vote yourself (I believe the baked vote was done before you explained that you like being Wagoned early?)

It will fully depend on how she responds to the question of the naked vote though.

[Thomith]

leave the poor dude alone

Vote Naerys

I feel like this is NAI, because I could see this being scum defending someone they know as a Townie, but could also see it as a Townie noticing someone getting dogpiled for a (imo) meh reason, and not liking it.

I'd like to hear if you still think Naerys is scummy though CCS.

Thats basically scum confession
VOTE: Katsuki

...I'm pretty sure that was a joke. Scum response.

VOTE: Naerys

I'm inclined to town read this vote, but that could just be because I agree with the reasoning behind it, I do think there is at least one scum in the people that jumped on Katsuki for the Juggernaut claim.

@Katsuki, is your top scumread davesaz currently? And is that based just on him claiming not to have a background with you even though je should have, or is there more to it?

I'm at a point where I'm quite content to sit back and see how things play out. I'm also somewhat rusty and mishandled my posting regarding dave so kinda gave him an easy out of any potential pressure. Rushed my posting and gave him the chance to use the convenient excuse of

"oh I forgot"

. The rest of his posting has been underwhelming and given me no reason to not trust my gut for now.

There is one player I'd be happy to see nom'ed today, but with the current game state there's no realistic chance of me getting support for their nom today so in the meantime I'm just going to chill until flips hopefully go my way to enable me to nail a wagon onto them.

Just wanted to clarify by the first sentence, that has nothing to do davesaz and should've been a different line. Meant to read that I'm content with this game state and how the day is progressing to let my reads continue develop.

Our votes are quite scattered at the moment as well so lets spice things up a bit.

VOTE: NAERYS

This vote is the weirdest on the wagon to me, just because I cant tell just from this if Katsuki thinks Naerys is scum, but I don't think jumping on a wagon early on with little reasoning is inherently scum only behaviour?

[Thomith]

I feel like I'll need to see Kyoukos reasoning for the vote after being questioned for it to fully form an opinion, but I could see it just being a reaction to you continuing to vote yourself (I believe the baked vote was done before you explained that you like being Wagoned early?)

It will fully depend on how she responds to the question of the naked vote though.

Okay so assuming it is a reaction to voting myself, what do you think about the vote?

If the wagon was more serious/it was later in the day, I could see it potentially being opportunistic, like an easy reason to jump on a wagon, but I feel like it wasnt like that, since at that point I think it felt like the wagon wasnt going to lead to your Lim, at least during that push?

Again how I feel about the vote completely, does depend on if Kyouko keeps voting you, and if she does, the reasons she gives for doing so.

[Thomith]

Im focusing on you the most because right now I think you're the scum in the Naerys/DE70/Gamma group. I am commenting on other things and asking questions when something catches my attention, so to say I'm ignoring everything else going on on the game is false.

I have given my thoughts on the two other things you have asked me about, I just am more convinced on my read on you right now than my understanding of those things.
I need to see more from Kyo (there may have been since I last checker, I haven't reread the thread yet), before I think I'll be able to read her either way, to see if I get the townvibes from her that I did in 09:12.

[Thomith]

The main thing that pings me, because scum used to do this a LOT when I last played, is people pointing out things that are weird but not necessarily scummy, that could lead to easy wagons.

It's why I didn't like people focusing on the Juggernaut claim.

I also don't like Dave focusing so much on Gamma rhyming, because it feels like a similar situation.

[Thomith]

It genuinely feels like you're just jumping where the wagons are to see what sticks, which is screaming being very opportunistic to me.

Granted, I could be tunelled and you're doing this to create pressure, but the reason I'm unsure of this is because you are also claiming you're willing to vote elsewhere, not fully committing to a push.

You asked a question, then jumped on me even though you were thinking pretty much the same thing regarding the claim, then seemed to backtrack when you said that you had the same reasoning, which is what properly pinged me about your slot.

You're saying I'm scum that doesn't know how to jump off your wagon without looking weird, but I already have a tonne of heat on me, so if I was scum, why would I continue to push the points that got me heat in the first place?

[Thomith]

Thats basically scum confession
VOTE: Katsuki

Katsuki what exactly does your role do

I think Katsuki’s claim deserves a closer glance
Not sure it’s real but it makes me look askance

These 3 posts about Katsukis claim make me want to keep an eye on these slots.
I feel like it was obvious the Juggernaut claim was a joke, and I do feel like it could be an easy opportunity for an opportunistic scum to jump on that.

Because of my point here, feels like a way for scum to jump on an easy point to look like they are trying to solve.

[Thomith]

Why haven't you gone back to your To Do List in 316 yet?

Yesterday up to when I started posting today, for the most obvious reason of all.

408 is part of the followup.
I can't expand much on the reason for the Hu Tao observation without getting into a forbidden subject. The correct way to read that comment is that it's going to make it hard to get a read on her.

Ok, that's fair. Who do you think is scum?

I don't think I've seen much if anything that's overtly scummy. Lots of contenders for least towny, so many that I'd have to think about it.
As someone who goes primarily by memory, breaks like holidays wreak havoc on me.

Who is least townie then?

[Thomith]

It genuinely feels like you're just jumping where the wagons are to see what sticks, which is screaming being very opportunistic to me.

Granted, I could be tunelled and you're doing this to create pressure, but the reason I'm unsure of this is because you are also claiming you're willing to vote elsewhere, not fully committing to a push.

You asked a question, then jumped on me even though you were thinking pretty much the same thing regarding the claim, then seemed to backtrack when you said that you had the same reasoning, which is what properly pinged me about your slot.

You're saying I'm scum that doesn't know how to jump off your wagon without looking weird, but I already have a tonne of heat on me, so if I was scum, why would I continue to push the points that got me heat in the first place?

Idk why

I just feel your posting is a lot more awkward compared to Micro 1094 and Open 893. You sounded a lot more confident and light hearted in those games than here.

Here your tone feels like you aren't really sure of what you are saying and you are looking for reasons to justify it / prove it, rather than you genuinely believe it.

I also don't buy that you actually think it's scummy to change my mind on you.

I was typing out a response to this but during it I realised I think I'm just tunelled, because I found myself disagreeing with the reasons I was writing.

UNVOTE:


I need to reassess.

[Thomith]

Edit: the link wasn't working with the [img

] tag (because it wasn't, scrictly, a link to an image). Original post:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Katsuki

Why Katsuki?

[Thomith]

I feel lost so ima sheep a town read

VOTE: CCS

[Thomith]

Why is snivy on E-1 so quickly?

What were you hoping to achieve with this question?

[Thomith]

Thomith are you zippydoo?

Huh?

[Thomith]

Thomith are you zippydoo?

Huh?

Who do you scumread? Who do you townread?

[Thomith]

Most of CCS’ new posts don’t sway me from the cause
But the reaction to the wagon formation gives me pause

Pretty much same

I don't like how snivy is focusing on Naerys voting Katsuki when I thought Naerys made it pretty clear that she voted her because she didn't like the dead Pokemon image

oh my god

Do you think there are scum in your wagon? If so, who do you think it could be?

[Thomith]

Most of CCS’ new posts don’t sway me from the cause
But the reaction to the wagon formation gives me pause

Pretty much same

I don't like how snivy is focusing on Naerys voting Katsuki when I thought Naerys made it pretty clear that she voted her because she didn't like the dead Pokemon image

oh my god

Black is goddess indeed

I feel like after you stopped pushing me, you haven't done a huge amount solving wise.

Do you still suspect Gamma? Do you suspect anyone else?

[Thomith]

I think Naerys is paying in a way where she probably ends up spewing her alignment at some point anyway, so I dont think I want to lim her today?

This is a entirely different Naerys than I've seem before tbh so I'm not too sure how to read her yet.

[Thomith]

I think Naerys is paying in a way where she probably ends up spewing her alignment at some point anyway, so I dont think I want to lim her today?

I suppose limming vanilla doesnt feel juicy enough to you?

I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to respond to this lmao.

I don't know why you claimed with 3 votes on you but sure.

[Thomith]

Checking in to acknowledge I've skimread and caught up.
I'll respond to Jackson at some point today.
I do think his push on me feels town, because I dont really see scum push a new wagon here when there are others they can easily join.

Interested to see what Black and Naerys' plans are to try and figure out those motivations at some point too.

[Thomith]

Yo Thom, what type of wolf are you typically?

It's been literal years since I rolled scum so I honestly cant say exactly how I'd play it nowadays.
When I used to play before, I used to skate by on posting actively while not actively doing a huge amount. I'd only post reads when prompted and would usually echo other peoples ideas for the most part so when people I was SRing did flip town, other people would likely take the fall over me.

If I was playing with people who had played with me as town, I'd actively try and mimic how I played before, so they'd townread me and I had somebody on my side, but I did this a bit too obviously and got caught for it more than once

I pefered to sit back and watch situations unfold so I could play reactionary, rather than take active steps to take over the game.

I'd like to think my play is better now than it was 8 or 9 years ago when i was a teenager, but who knows tbh. That's probably the best answer I can give you atm.

*cracks knuckles*

Spoiler:

26 oh god not scum vigilantes
36 started thinking they were town through tone but this whole "kill me" joke being too long is starting to feel awkward.
39 I really like this line of thinking from Black.
41 from Thomith feels like its an attempt to stop a townread rather than treating the argument as it is. Trying to counter a weak gut-based read is a little weird.
52 (hu tao) here's our third scum claim for this game lmfao, one is bound to be actually wolf. But as they're also reading Thomith as wolfy from the early game I'm bound to tentatively town-lean this because clearly they're smart as fuck if their reads align with my own also their 55 is townie even though it's hilariously NAI-looking, it reads to me like they're not thinking too deeply about placing the vote itself. Reads natural. The argument that they look nervous fits with my own, it really feels like they're trying to remain control of the gamestate but not doing a super good job at doing so, I will have to see whether or not they're the type to power wolf or hide within the Town primarily.
62 from Black, I am not sure how I wanna see this to be honest. On one hand I see this as townie, I can follow the logic enough but thinking further I don't actually believe what she said to be necessarily the case. I think Hu Tao is townie from what they've done, I don't think they're looking for anything in regards to their own image.
Thom's response wasn't really to the content of which Hu Tao was saying either, it was something based on how they're acting towards that is similar to a scum-game which is the easy way to make an argument against someone scum-reading you, although with me saying this I am starting to feel conf-bias creep up on me.
102 (Black) feels like a pretty weak reason to town-read Thom, it feels like it's justifying something for the sake of justifying it. Town-reading somebody for making reads is just simply wrong.
157 Hu Tao saying unfortunately here is townie as fuck.
Oh I usually do 10 posts at a time but completely forgot and kept reading, oh well.
Black voting Naerys after she stated that black didn't look great, is not a great look to me.

I dont know how else to respond to this other than say that the way Hu Tao was questioning me in the early pages of this game was almost exactly the same as they did in the Micro I was talking about, which is why I was pinged early on that Hu Tao could be a wolf.

I concede that it isn't the strongest reason, which is why I didn't push it that far, but it was so early in the game there wasnt much else to go off of.

Would you have rather me have said "null because nothing has happened yet"?

As it stands now, Thom/Black look the worst and Hu Tao looks the best

Why do I look the best?

Because you're undeniably yourself, you read natural. You read like you're saying what comes in your head right as it comes in, without stopping to think about how you would look. Things like this, just pure.

Do you not think this could be faked? Is Hu Tao the only person doing this?

That being said I do think Thom is wolfy, especially regarding that part I spoke about regarding not wanting somebody to town-read another too easily

VOTE: Thom

To confirm, just so I know I'm not missing something else I can actively defend against, you think I'm a wolf because Black TRed me too easily?

I will say since it seems like you think I could be faking reads or coming up with easy reads ect.
The reads I have been pushing were getting me heat, but i continued pushing them because i genuinely believe them, and wasnt going to start lying about my reads and what I thought just because of what I was saying was getting me heat.

If I was scum, and faking reads like it seems to be suggested, why would I not try and find a way to change the reads I was pushing to rey and get heat off of me, rather than double down and try and explain my reasoning?

[Thomith]

I've been waffling on the original post I had and have decided to withhold it for now.

Where I am right now, I still think that Dragon is most likely to flip scum out of the leading nom candidates based off of a number of factors. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there's a good chance he is the strongest PR the wolves have.

Normally I'd be perfectly fine with D1 nomming CCS slot contribution, but I really don't like how that wagon came about. We went from stalled wagons 3 votes apiece on Dragon, Naerys and Thomith, with Thomith being the counterwagon with dragon and naerys voting for him, to suddenly being able to construct a wagon on the lurker. Nothing in his posting had changed, he could've been voted or examined at any time during the day, but no one thought to mention him at all until it came to WAGON HO!

Currently where I'm sitting looks roughly like this.

CONFTOWN:

ME

STRONGTOWN:

KYOUKO
KITTY

TOWN:

HUTAO
GE

LIKELY TOWN

THOMITH (conf town if Dragon+Naerys both flip scum)

That leaves davesaz, CCS, Jackson, Black, dragon and Naerys.

dave I'm firmly null on atm.
CCS is null leaning town
JACKSON I'm tempted to toss him into the town pile.

That conveniently leaves dragon, black and naerys. Is the game really this easy? Maybe. I'm pretty confident that there's at least two scum in that pool (wouldn't shock me if I nailed all 3, but would surprise me a bit playing with a new group of players). I quite like what Black has been doing from a scum perspective, and in my eyes it makes the most sense that it stems from Dragon being scum. Plus, she's no longer a fluffy adorable Umbreon. If Dragon flips scum, she is buddy #1 and needs to be TURBONOMMED accordingly.

So TL;DR, at the moment I think the game is fairly straight forward, with Dragon likely to be scum and his buddies being pretty obvious post-flip. Therefore I'm happiest with a Dragon nom today.

Thom+katsuki are scum
I need to find the last one

Why are we scum together?

[Thomith]

Those wall posts are legit scummy

Katsukis or mine, or both?

Are you saying that you SR us both I individually then, or that we have partner equity?

[Thomith]

I dont understand why you're actively just being unhelpful.
I've legitimately never seen you like this before.

[Thomith]

Yeah it feels like the obvious answer, but idk why you'd say that out loud either.
I will say if its true, I likely get shot and we have 2 town dead at the end of Day 1.

[Thomith]

What the hell is going on

[Thomith]

Has anybody played with Dragon before?

Yes but (and I mean no offense) they seem a bit like a generic player... it's not that I can't read them, I just have no idea about the meta.

The hell does that mean? Like not offense-wise, but there's literally no player on this site whose playstyle I cannot characterize as idiosyncratic in some way.

Also I've accidentally become Not_Mafia and will insta hammer any wagon that gets E-1.

Oh I guess... that explains it?

I hate it.

[Thomith]

Checking in to acknowledge I've skimread and caught up.
I'll respond to Jackson at some point today.
I do think his push on me feels town, because I dont really see scum push a new wagon here when there are others they can easily join.

Interested to see what Black and Naerys' plans are to try and figure out those motivations at some point too.

Quoting because I still think I feel the same.
There were two easy wagons they could have just jumped on without much pushback, but instead they started a new wagon, which I think is a bold move for scum to make, unless we are in the exact word where it's a CCS/Naerys/Jackson scumteam but that seems like a huge stretch.

The progression they have on people seems genuine to me, and I feel like the effort does also seem pretty genuine, so I townlean them atm.

[Thomith]

Checking in to acknowledge I've skimread and caught up.
I'll respond to Jackson at some point today.
I do think his push on me feels town, because I dont really see scum push a new wagon here when there are others they can easily join.

Interested to see what Black and Naerys' plans are to try and figure out those motivations at some point too.

Quoting because I still think I feel the same.
There were two easy wagons they could have just jumped on without much pushback, but instead they started a new wagon, which I think is a bold move for scum to make, unless we are in the exact word where it's a CCS/Naerys/Jackson scumteam but that seems like a huge stretch.

The progression they have on people seems genuine to me, and I feel like the effort does also seem pretty genuine, so I townlean them atm.

Sorry my mistake, I thought Naerys was the other wagon - CCS/Naerys/Jackson should be CCS/DE70/Jackson.

Basically unless both of their scum partners were being wagoned, I feel like it would be odd for Jackson to start a new wagon when they could join one easily.

[Thomith]

I don't think I agree with the premise that scum try to avoid starting new wagons. I think it's more risky for them to jump on wagons that have already gained some momentum because it can come across as opportunistic. Starting a new wagon and going against the grain is usually pretty safe and often times viewed as them trying to solve the game

I can see that, but I feel like it would look more forced in that case though? I'm following Jacksons progression and to me it felt genuine?

[Thomith]

What are your most confident reads Thommyboy

Asteriscs are reads I'm more confident about but this is where I roughly stand right now I think.

Black*
JacksonVirgo*

Gamma Emerald

ssbm_kyouko
KittyTacky

Naerys
DragonEater70

Katsuki

Hu Tao*

camelCasedSnivy
davesaz

[Thomith]

To clarify why Hu Tao isn't down at the bottom as scummiest, but is more confident, is that Hu Tao hasn't done a lot actively scummy, which is why I dont have them as scummiest, but my gut is still pinging strongly that their play and tone feels so similar to the Micro that I have a hard time believing they are town.

I dont necessarily want to fade them right now, because again, they haven't dont a lot actively scummy, and I could be tunelled on the wing thing.
I struggle to read Hu Tao generally I fear, which is why while im confident, im not convinced if that makes any sense?

[Thomith]

Naerys and DE70 are where they are on the list because I feel like they're just acting fucking weird, so I dont really know how to read that.

[Thomith]

Can you elaborate on your Katsuki and Hu Tao reads a bit?

Is what I said about Hu Tao enough of an elaboration? Or do you want me to grab quotes and such?

P-edit I guess we are just gunna keep ninjaing each other lmao

[Thomith]

I guess just your Katsuki read then

Yes but it may take me a little bit to consolidate how I'm feeling into a post because I'm still at work for a little bit.

[Thomith]

To clarify why Hu Tao isn't down at the bottom as scummiest, but is more confident, is that Hu Tao hasn't done a lot actively scummy, which is why I dont have them as scummiest, but my gut is still pinging strongly that their play and tone feels so similar to the Micro that I have a hard time believing they are town.

I dont necessarily want to fade them right now, because again, they haven't dont a lot actively scummy, and I could be tunelled on the wing thing.
I struggle to read Hu Tao generally I fear, which is why while im confident, im not convinced if that makes any sense?

I also have no idea why tone auto corrected to wing

[Thomith]

I guess just your Katsuki read then

Yes but it may take me a little bit to consolidate how I'm feeling into a post because I'm still at work for a little bit.

Can you also go over your Dave read a little when you get around to it? I think I'm townreading him tonally so I'm curious what you see there

I'll go into more detail for sure, but the focus in Gammas rhyming as a key point for a scum read feels like a cop out to me that I dont like.

[Thomith]

I think Naerys wanting to flip a null read over her scumreads indicates that she doesn't really care who is faded. The argument that a Snivy flip gives us a lot of info doesn't check out either considering he's one of the least active slots in the game

Basically Naerys my confusion is

You are voting Katsuki, saying you are scumreading Gamma/dave, but you want Snivy limmed.

Can you walk me through this

I parked my vote on Katsuki bcz of that ugly picture.
Gamme/dave was a gut feeling i had at a certain point
i wanted Snivy limmed bcz it would give decent info
now i think its better to lim me, only claim scum will get from me is "vanilla" tho

Naerys wtf are you doing

If you are scum you should fight

If you are town you should fight even harder

I have a plan.

Two things come to mind here.
If Naerys is town vengeful hoping to bait scum, I think her reads are more likely to lose us another town. It's hard to tell given my reads aren't all that strong, but just a bad feeling here.
It's also possible she's scum with cCS and with a less valuable role.

I was also thinking she's vengeful, but why ever would you say that out loud???

Yeah it feels like the obvious answer, but idk why you'd say that out loud either.
I will say if its true, I likely get shot and we have 2 town dead at the end of Day 1.

I feel like at least one or both of you are cappin - didn't occur to me in a normal, even if it's complex, to think she's vengeful. And I think dave's post makes it clear why he did point it out - he's worried Naerys's reads are bad to the point that we'd lose 2 town if vengeful!Naerys was limmed. I think if dave is scum he doesn't have to make that post ITT - that can go to the scum PT.

Oh, reading closer Thomith isn't saying he'd thought the same thing, just saying it makes sense. Which is where I was at - not saying anything about it now and just sort of bookmarking dave as +town.

I'll be completely honest with you just for sincerities sake when I kept seeing Naerys say she was willing to get faded today and she had a plan, I did assume vengeful.

[Thomith]

I guess just your Katsuki read then

The thing that pinged me a bit was that they seemed to hard tunnel on Dave early in the game, and then seemed to begin attempting to switch to faster wagons when they started emerging. The jump off of dave felt a little wonky to me.

Pre-emptively saying things like "I dont like day 1" to almost give an out of how hard you're going to try rubs me the wrong way too, but tbh this is probably NAI, just pinged me at the time.

After reading the ISO again, I probably could bump them up a tier.

[Thomith]

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

I'm getting gut pings here that this slot is scum. I think they have been super appease-y in their interactions with me/Thom despite us being their top scumreads. I also think they've been kinda defensive too

I think they had a perspective slip regarding me and saying they think I'm a good player and they can't wait for me to pop off later, despite me being their biggest scumread. I'm not buying the excuse that they were trying to address me as town even though they don't think I am

It feels like they are ignoring half of the playerlist which gives me the feeling that they're not trying to solve at all. They just want to push their own little agenda to blend in and seem like they're doing stuff

I'm willing to move elsewhere if this doesn't get support but I think we should wagon this rn

Am I just blind and not seeing them try to appease me..

I see your point about how they're approaching you, but in my eyes they're still just hard pushing me so dont see the appeasement?

[Thomith]

I guess just your Katsuki read then

The thing that pinged me a bit was that they seemed to hard tunnel on Dave early in the game, and then seemed to begin attempting to switch to faster wagons when they started emerging. The jump off of dave felt a little wonky to me.

Pre-emptively saying things like "I dont like day 1" to almost give an out of how hard you're going to try rubs me the wrong way too, but tbh this is probably NAI, just pinged me at the time.

After reading the ISO again, I probably could bump them up a tier.

We must have very different definitions of hard tunnel. How hard would you quantify my push on Dave this game? Because neither the duration nor the intensity with which I pushed Dave would qualify as "hard tunneling".

I never said I didn't like D1s, just not D1s with like 200 pgs, which was the context of that convo with GE.

Gotcha fair enough on the second point then.
I remember when I played in 2011 that a 90 something page Mini game I was in was like the 4th longest game at the time . Things have definitely changed.

To me it felt like you had one reason to push dave that didn't really grow, and the fact you were the only one there for a while, where it felt things were kind of happening around you (at least that's the vibe I got at the time) it felt kind if tunelly?

[Thomith]

Regarding my theory. I thought Jackson and Thom could be scum together. I didn't like the way Jackson was attacking my townread on Thom and it felt like they knew Thom was scum and was using that to try to paint me in a bad light

I joined the wagon because I wanted to see how Jackson reacted to the wagon if it gained momentum. I figured they would abandon ship. The vote felt like distancing and I didn't think Jackson would be down to full on bus this early. The wagon didn't really gain any interest though so I wasn't able to gauge their reaction to it

I'm less convinced in this pairing after asking Thom about Jackson and seeing them interact some more, but it's still a possibility. I think Jackson is probably scum independent of Thom's alignment

To 100% confirm, is this

think

or

thought

?

[Thomith]

I am confident because of the reasons I stated, which you disagree with.
The catchup did feel like they were genuinely trying to solve, the progressions to me felt like they were legitimate and genuine.

Again it feels like our opinions on the below are just different:

I don't think I agree with the premise that scum try to avoid starting new wagons. I think it's more risky for them to jump on wagons that have already gained some momentum because it can come across as opportunistic. Starting a new wagon and going against the grain is usually pretty safe and often times viewed as them trying to solve the game

In the instance of replacing in, especially with how many sheep votes CCS had specifically, I don't think it would have been too hard for somebody to come up with a reason to vote them that means Jackson didn't look like the worst vote on the wagon should CCS flip town. DE70 also has enough people suspecting him for relatively valid reasons, that I don't even think a sheep vote looks too bad there either.
idk, I just feel like it would be super bold for scum to come in to 3 relatively easy votes that probably don't make them look that bad, and could still feasibly look like they are solving if they word things right, and instead try and start a new wagon. Maybe I'm WIFOMing too hard.

I'm in a weird spot where my two top townreads are suspecting each other, which is making it hard for me to make sense of things either way, because I trust you both.

[Thomith]

I guess just your Katsuki read then

Yes but it may take me a little bit to consolidate how I'm feeling into a post because I'm still at work for a little bit.

Can you also go over your Dave read a little when you get around to it? I think I'm townreading him tonally so I'm curious what you see there

This likely happens tomorrow, because my brain is a little too fried to reread his ISO today. I did briefly go into detail, but will speak about specific post that pinged me tomorrow if that's fine?

[Thomith]

@Mod: V/LA this weekend

I should be able to still be checking and keeping up with things, but likely won't be super active.

Acknowledged.

[Thomith]

Yay more Pokemon avatars! Looks good Thomith

Swampert/The Mudkip line generally will always have a special place in my heart generally because it was the first starter I chose in Ruby.

[Thomith]

My avatar is from Pokemon but it's a little more obscure so only the real cool kids will recognize it

Hello Zinnia
The Delta episodes were the best part of ORAS.

[Thomith]

Everyone in the game change your avatar to something pokemon related challenge!

[Thomith]

My avatar is from Pokemon but it's a little more obscure so only the real cool kids will recognize it

I chuckled when I saw you were Zinnia
ftr I am a character from Paldea

Penny is probably my favourite character design wise in a long time.

Okay I PROMISE I'm going to try and stop derailing the thread with pokemon now, but it's just something I can talk about for ages

[Thomith]

I feel lost so ima sheep a town read

VOTE: CCS

which townread was it? if it was black you could join us now

It was Black.
I really dislike this post though, so I think I'm fine here for now.

[Thomith]

*and if its gamma emerald ill sheep you on ssbm_kyouko

What the hell is this?
I dislike this post even more.

[Thomith]

Naerys and DE70 are where they are on the list because I feel like they're just acting fucking weird, so I dont really know how to read that.

Naerys is indeed very erratic this game but DE70 weird how? Maybe I'm getting that thing where I'm blind to a specific player's style.

The self voting twice is the main thing, randomly turning into Not_Mafia also threw me for a loop too tbh

[Thomith]

Hu and Black hard town imho.

Why?

[Thomith]

Mine

[Thomith]

TIL i cant count to 1000.
Ill catch up later on what i missed overnight, and give more context on my dave read.

[Thomith]

Jackson I don't think your kitty vote is doing much. It got him to talk a little and I like the idea behind pressuring him to do more but I don't think we're fading Kitty today

Do you have any scumreads besides me and Thomith?

With all due respect, I don't care for consolidation votes when I don't feel like my vote is doing anything in particular if that's what you're suggesting.

With respect to you, we are only a few days from deadline so need to start consolidating.

[Thomith]

I think Snivy is clearly Town, so if they're going out I'd vote whomever it would take to keep him alive (within reason). I don't want Naerys nor Dragon over Kitty at this point either but I feel that's clear

Have you said why you think CCS is clearly town? If so dw ill find it in your ISO, if not cpuld you explain why?

[Thomith]

With respect to you, we are only a few days from deadline so need to start consolidating.

"need' is quite the choice of words :p

I mean we quite literally do need to at some point soon, or we'll no-lim.

[Thomith]

I hate to use this as an excuse, as I felt I had a handle on this but I guess not for this game, I have attention issues and I used to get really hyperfocused by the most "shiny" people (aka my stronger reads) and forgot about a lot of other people in a game and just realising how much I

don't

actually have a handle on it is depressing but we deal, I'll put work in to fix that don't worry

No stress, this is a game we play for fun, gotta do what we can to keep it fun.

[Thomith]

I guess just your Katsuki read then

Yes but it may take me a little bit to consolidate how I'm feeling into a post because I'm still at work for a little bit.

Can you also go over your Dave read a little when you get around to it? I think I'm townreading him tonally so I'm curious what you see there

Three things pinged me early

1) Mentioning the Juggernaut claim - again, I do genuinely feel as if there is at least one scum in the group of people that even subtly shaded Katsuki for this, this is especially true if she ends up flipping town.
2) Mentioning that if we weren't told there were werewolves in this game, that he would suspect me for knowing there were werewolves - I don't see the point of mentioning this at all, and it almost feels like somebody who is trying to look like they are contributing, while not really saying much.

3) The Gamma Rhyming thing - while on a reread, I do concede that dave never outright called Gamma scummy for this, I still do think he was subtly shading it here, saying things such as people that rely on Gamma's posting to read its tone, while not outright scumreading, is still throwing shade on the slot imo, and on something that I think is easy to jump on/shade, where it seems, at least to me, to be something that is NAI. (Also I'm not convinced that 408 is not dave saying he suspects Gamma tbh, but he claims this isn't the case so i'll believe him).


Posts like 216 251 and 252 again, feel like appearing to be active, while not saying a whole lot.

Granted, this was early on, and I do agree that dave has picked up later on in the day, but these early pings still haven't really gone away for me yet - I feel like there is a world where he could be scum finding his groove, and posting better as the day went on.

[Thomith]

I feel lost so ima sheep a town read

VOTE: CCS

which townread was it? if it was black you could join us now

*and if its gamma emerald ill sheep you on ssbm_kyouko

Knowing now that Naerys was town, I dislike these posts more than I already did.
VOTE: cCS

[Thomith]

I feel Naerys’ claim was towny
I was trying to figure out how to put that into rhyme when the wagon got blitzed

I don't really like this post

There were like 3 days between Naerys's claim and her wagon popping off

I feel like Naerys kind of resigned herself to being faded immediately after claiming though.

I also don't think Gamma was saying that Naerys got blitz wagoned because of the claim, so I'm not sure of the relevancy?

[Thomith]

dave is actually a player I probably trust more out of the votes on Naerys

Same

I feel lost so ima sheep a town read

VOTE: CCS

which townread was it? if it was black you could join us now

*and if its gamma emerald ill sheep you on ssbm_kyouko

Knowing now that Naerys was town, I dislike these posts more than I already did.
VOTE: cCS

I think Snivy is scummy for other reasons but I don't really think recruiting others to his cause is all that scummy

It is when he is namedropping others as reasons to join the cause.

Feels like he could be doing that so you or Gamma took the fall if Naerys/Kyouko flipped town? That might be tinfoil tbh though, just got a weird vibe from those posts.

[Thomith]

The issue with the Naerys wagon for me is while it was easy to jump onto, i can 100% see the reason why town would join it.

I think I need to go back and look at the context that everyone jumped on the wagon with.

[Thomith]

I did ISO kitty during the night before I got bored, and while I do think tonally they're scummy I do think I've been treating them unfairly

Kitty was town from post 1

Why do you think Kitty is town?

[Thomith]

I did ISO kitty during the night before I got bored, and while I do think tonally they're scummy I do think I've been treating them unfairly

Kitty was town from post 1

Why do you think Kitty is town?

Tone. I explained it yesterday. Kitty is very different as scum.

Gotcha, I'll find the post and let you know if I have any other questions then.

[Thomith]

I think that's 2 people now that said they wanted to vote Dragon but didn't because he was already at E-2.
The fact he has enough people wanting to vote him to hammer already is giving me pause.

I feel like he's either getting hard bussed, or this is a townie scum want out of the game.

I feel like there's probably at least 1 scum on him right now either way.

[Thomith]

Hm nevermind it was Hu Tao saying they wanted to vote him twice but not doing it, I knew I remembered another occasion of it being said though.

[Thomith]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

[Thomith]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hu Tao

Interesting. Why?

I'm not sure I'm buying you quickhammering/threatening to quickhammer coming from Hu Taown.
That coupled with early suspicions I'm not fully over yet.

[Thomith]

Okay. I'm not going to try and tip toe around this anymore.

Kyouko do you have a guilty on dragon or no?

If this is true though I feel better about it

[Thomith]

Well, nevermind.
Why did you think Kyouko had a guilty?

[Thomith]

Well, nevermind.
Why did you think Kyouko had a guilty?

The way the votes piled up and the way gamma started acting

What do the way votes piling up have to do with you thinking Kyouko has a guilty?

[Thomith]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I want to fade in this group

Why has your read on me changed?
Still the Jackson thing from yesterday?

[Thomith]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I want to fade in this group

Why has your read on me changed?
Still the Jackson thing from yesterday?

These 4 were off the Naerys wagon and I don't think the entire scum team was on that wagon

Aside from that though I'm having a similar problem that I had in Micro Normal 1094. Some of your posts just gut ping me the wrong way

Ah I see.
Which ones so I can try and help explain my thought process more (didn't help in the Micro but may as well try )

[Thomith]

Oh, I didn't realise Gamma thought there was a guilty too.

UNVOTE:

I believe that Hu Tao thought it was a guilty then, and if that's the case, it does explain the quick hammer threat today.

[Thomith]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I want to fade in this group

Why has your read on me changed?
Still the Jackson thing from yesterday?

These 4 were off the Naerys wagon and I don't think the entire scum team was on that wagon

Aside from that though I'm having a similar problem that I had in Micro Normal 1094. Some of your posts just gut ping me the wrong way

Issue with your pool is, unless one or less scum was on Naerys, it is still statistically better to look at those on the wagon.

To be fair, I think smaller pools are easier to to look into than larger pools early.

[Thomith]

Did the rhyming thing impact your ability to read Gamma at all Kyouko?
If not, I choose to put full faith in Kyouko's ability to soulread Gamma

[Thomith]

Because of how fast the DE70 wagon grew, I do also think there's at least 1 scum in [ssbm_Kyouko, Gamma Emerald, JacksonVirgo, Katsuki, Black, Hu Tao (not on the wagon, but mentioned multiple times they wanted to be.)]

[Thomith]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}
The issue I have here is I think I'm townreading everyone in this list right now.

[Thomith]

Kyouko just made a risky play with using the fact she states she can read Gamma almost flawlessly every game if they are scum together.

[Thomith]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}
The issue I have here is I think I'm townreading everyone in this list right now.

Glad you are townreading yourself but seriously why do you tr dragon?

He feels like he is solving, and the fact his wagon grew so fast today made me want to gut townread him, but this is now weakened by the fact that people thought Kyouko was softclaiming a guilty.

[Thomith]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}
The issue I have here is I think I'm townreading everyone in this list right now.

Why do you townread Gamma?

Even with the rhyming thing, it felt like she was trying to solve Day 1, part of me can see it deciding not to defend Naerys' claim because of not knowing how to make things rhyme (like idk how to really explain this other than something I could just see Gamma doing). I feel like scum!Gamma wouldn't mention anything about roleswapping with Kyouko (unless they are scum together and planned this), because from what I saw of Scum!Gamma in the 09:12 Open was that she prefered to almost be in the background.
I also do trust Kyouko's ability to read Gamma due to the amount of times she has done it successfully, however there is of course a world where they are scum together.

[Thomith]

I think I'm still between Hu Tao, CCS, Katsuki, Dave

[Thomith]

I could see Gamma/Kyo. I felt it was really weird Kyo didn't have a read on Gamma yesterday. I do feel something doesn't fully add up though woth how hard Kyo is TRing Gamma - I'm not sure wolf!Kyo is actually likely to TR a partner that heavily.

Because of the Rhyming D1 I do see why it may have been harder.

[Thomith]

I think I'm still between Hu Tao, CCS, Katsuki, Dave

Can you explain why I'm scum here?

The honest genuine answer is I'm probably tunelled on you.

[Thomith]

Because of how fast the DE70 wagon grew, I do also think there's at least 1 scum in [ssbm_Kyouko, Gamma Emerald, JacksonVirgo, Katsuki, Black, Hu Tao (not on the wagon, but mentioned multiple times they wanted to be.)]

2 of us wanted to lim DE yesterDay and 2 of us thought I had a guilty, so I'm not sure this makes sense. I don't think the speed is unusual given the circumstances

If I didn't mention this in that post I meant to, but people thinking there was a guilty potentially skews this assumption.

[Thomith]

VOTE: Thomith

Hi Black!

[Thomith]

VOTE: Thomith

Hi Black!

Hi Beetlejuice!

You just hanging out waiting for someone to say your name or do you actually have thoughts on the last several pages?

I woke up at 3am and checked the thread.

I'll reread properly tomorrow

[Thomith]

Or today I guess

[Thomith]

Why are you getting cold feet on Dann?

A few reasons

Some of the comments he made to me made me doubt my read there. I'm on mobile but I can grab them after I post this

Part of the reason I wanted to push Dann through was because I thought he was partnered with Katsuki, but I'm actually starting to feel like Kat might be town, so the whole "bus Dann to misfade me" tinfoil has died down a little

I also think Dann could be a huge asset if he's town here and I would like to try and let him catch up and give reads on everything

I can't shake this feeling that Gamma might be scum and her positioning around this whole thing has made me doubt if we're actually fading scum here

What changed to make you TR her?

[Thomith]

I will say I like some of Gamma's solving here

So maybe off-wagon scum is JV or Thomith

Do you think I'm playing differently to the Micro?

[Thomith]

Time zones are wild when you really sit back and think about them. Like we're all out here living our lives at completely different times of the day

It's funny that you woke up 8 minutes after I voted for you. Maybe you felt it in your dream? I picture you waking up in a panic and a sweat with the awful feeling that someone is pushing you

I have an alarm on my phone that goes off when I get voted in Mafia games.

[Thomith]

Whoever said sorting a smaller pool is easier was right *shrug*

Assuming we're all right on Dragon and they flip red, what's your other solve? Not talking about associative reads I couldn't care less but if you use them then go ham

This feels weird to me but I can't really tell why?

[Thomith]

celebloki stands out as the most likely slot in the game to flip scum as of page 14 or so

Why do you think this?

[Thomith]

Whoever said sorting a smaller pool is easier was right *shrug*

Assuming we're all right on Dragon and they flip red, what's your other solve? Not talking about associative reads I couldn't care less but if you use them then go ham

This feels weird to me but I can't really tell why?

Was gonna ask why without thinking

I can try and explain it, but it's nothing definitive.
It's mainly the vibe I got from this made it seem like you were saying it Knowing how the slot would flip, obviously I can't prove that, and it's not like you slipped up on wording, but this, followed by you immediately asking about him flipping red, pinged me as potentially over correcting?

[Thomith]

On reflection could also just be you spewing thoughts.

[Thomith]

Whoever said sorting a smaller pool is easier was right *shrug*

Assuming we're all right on Dragon and they flip red, what's your other solve? Not talking about associative reads I couldn't care less but if you use them then go ham

This feels weird to me but I can't really tell why?

Was gonna ask why without thinking

I can try and explain it, but it's nothing definitive.
It's mainly the vibe I got from this made it seem like you were saying it Knowing how the slot would flip, obviously I can't prove that, and it's not like you slipped up on wording, but this, followed by you immediately asking about him flipping red, pinged me as potentially over correcting?

Well I wouldn’t be voting him if I didn’t think he would flip red, as I mostly under that perspective than I am of him flipping town I’m more curious how Gamma was feeling about that world but that second post was me realising that I’m not a GOAT and I should probably ask that second one too. I appreciate you trying to explain it

Cool, I believe it.

[Thomith]

Just got home, felt it was important to elaborate on my "Oop". I feel you should be aware that I scum-lean you, if not I have clearly not been vocal enough about my reads but given that read when you said you felt my post was weird, considering the gamestate of the apparent focus on the off-wagon and Dann's wagon is dying off I feel this was prime opportunistic behaviour in the making but you disproved that immediately which caught me off guard.

I'm aware you scumread me. I also think you're tunnelled, but again, not much I can do to prove that.

I'm not going to fake a push just because my heads on the chopping block, something you did felt weird to me, you explained it, I don't think it's weird anymore.

[Thomith]

I'm aware you scumread me. I also think you're tunnelled, but again, not much I can do to prove that.

I don't believe I am tunnelled as the read isn't so deep that I'm pushing you directly, but perhaps that's semantics.

Has your read changed at all based on our last few interactions?

[Thomith]

I'm aware you scumread me. I also think you're tunnelled, but again, not much I can do to prove that.

I don't believe I am tunnelled as the read isn't so deep that I'm pushing you directly, but perhaps that's semantics.

I still think you can be tunnelled on someone being scum and not he actively pushing them

[Thomith]

To clarify, I'm not town-reading you by any means I just feel I have to re-center myself and see where I stand

Then I'm wrong about you being tunnelled.

[Thomith]

To clarify, I'm not town-reading you by any means I just feel I have to re-center myself and see where I stand

Then I'm wrong about you being tunnelled.

Just more curious than anything but what would you consider the difference between a tunnel and just pushing somebody hard

The difference imo is hard pushing you are willing to see other opinions, or admit you are wrong if other information becomes available, whereas if you are tunnelled, you either dont have many hard reasons for suspecting someone, but do anyway (this was why I said I think I could be tunnelled on Hu Tao), or are not likely to see anything townie a player is doing as enough to get you to stop pushing them.

[Thomith]

thomith could be a court jester

I don't know if I should be flattered or offended

[Thomith]

it means i keep enjoying your posts but thus far your alignment is an elusive puddle of grey goo

Is there anything I can do/answer to help you figure out a read on me?

[Thomith]

JacksonVirgo
Dannflor

Black
Gamma Emerald

ssbm_kyouko

Katsuki
KittyTacky
Hu Tao

davesaz
camelCasedSnivy

[Thomith]

Maybe.
Bottom 3 tiers are kinda flexible right now in my mind I think.

[Thomith]

QUICK JV

GUN TO HEAD WHAT ARE THE ALIGNMENTS OF KATSUKI AND BLACK

I realise I probably could have waited for this before posting reads. Oops.

[Thomith]

I guess just your Katsuki read then

Yes but it may take me a little bit to consolidate how I'm feeling into a post because I'm still at work for a little bit.

Can you also go over your Dave read a little when you get around to it? I think I'm townreading him tonally so I'm curious what you see there

Three things pinged me early

1) Mentioning the Juggernaut claim - again, I do genuinely feel as if there is at least one scum in the group of people that even subtly shaded Katsuki for this, this is especially true if she ends up flipping town.
2) Mentioning that if we weren't told there were werewolves in this game, that he would suspect me for knowing there were werewolves - I don't see the point of mentioning this at all, and it almost feels like somebody who is trying to look like they are contributing, while not really saying much.
3) The Gamma Rhyming thing - while on a reread, I do concede that dave never outright called Gamma scummy for this, I still do think he was subtly shading it here, saying things such as people that rely on Gamma's posting to read its tone, while not outright scumreading, is still throwing shade on the slot imo, and on something that I think is easy to jump on/shade, where it seems, at least to me, to be something that is NAI. (Also I'm not convinced that 408 is not dave saying he suspects Gamma tbh, but he claims this isn't the case so i'll believe him).

Posts like 216 251 and 252 again, feel like appearing to be active, while not saying a whole lot.

Granted, this was early on, and I do agree that dave has picked up later on in the day, but these early pings still haven't really gone away for me yet - I feel like there is a world where he could be scum finding his groove, and posting better as the day went on.

This explains my initial ping on dave, and I feel like he hasn't done that much in his posting after this to make me feel any better about him.
He has reasons for things, but posts such as 1054 and 1060 and 1157 seem to almost feel like explanations are being given because it's expected?

I feel lost so ima sheep a town read

VOTE: CCS

which townread was it? if it was black you could join us now

*and if its gamma emerald ill sheep you on ssbm_kyouko

Knowing now that Naerys was town, I dislike these posts more than I already did.
VOTE: cCS

dave is actually a player I probably trust more out of the votes on Naerys

Same

I feel lost so ima sheep a town read

VOTE: CCS

which townread was it? if it was black you could join us now

*and if its gamma emerald ill sheep you on ssbm_kyouko

Knowing now that Naerys was town, I dislike these posts more than I already did.
VOTE: cCS

I think Snivy is scummy for other reasons but I don't really think recruiting others to his cause is all that scummy

It is when he is namedropping others as reasons to join the cause.

Feels like he could be doing that so you or Gamma took the fall if Naerys/Kyouko flipped town? That might be tinfoil tbh though, just got a weird vibe from those posts.

While Black has a point about CCS Mentioning those names because I was townreading Black and Gamma at the time, to me thay whole thing felt awkward, almost trying to remove himself from the decision making completely, by throwing out 2 other names (3 if you include me) other than himself that can be blamed if a wagon flips town.

[Thomith]

How well do you know Danns play Black?
Is there a world where he's catering to you so you TR him?

[Thomith]

While Black has a point about CCS Mentioning those names because I was townreading Black and Gamma at the time, to me thay whole thing felt awkward, almost trying to remove himself from the decision making completely, by throwing out 2 other names (3 if you include me) other than himself that can be blamed if a wagon flips town

Is this the only reason you scumread Snivy?

It's the main reason.
The rest of their posting also feels like how I used to play as scum which is what is also pinging me too - looking like you are contributing, but in reality not being the main person pushing things through so other people take the heat.
I also don't know if I like the jumping around on the Dann wagon either.

[Thomith]

The rest of their posting also feels like how I used to play as scum which is what is also pinging me too - looking like you are contributing, but in reality not being the main person pushing things through so other people take the heat

A little self-meta question here but what do you think the main difference between your town and scum game is?

It's been a long ass time since I rolled scum so the completely honest answer is I don't know confidently anymore.

From what I do remember, I feel like I am a lot more confident in my reads as scum, mainly because obviously I had more information, whereas as Town, I'm less likely to fully commit to a read in fear of being wrong. (the fear of being wrong is still prevalent I've found since I've returned, maybe I just need to start full sending reads with false confidence until they gradually start improving). I tended to try to avoid being the sole person reading someone a certain way to prevent how much I stood out, so I at the very least had to 1v1 with someone should a read on a certain player end up being suspicious.

I also hard bussed at least one scum member way too fucking much

I remember preferring multiball scum games, because I found it easier to make my reads look genuine, because I could genuinely be scumhunting for the other scumteam.

Granted I know this kind of makes me look bad here, but I know I used to try and buddy up to the early wagons a lot as scum so I'd look like the person that was arguing against a bad wagon if a townie flipped Day 1 or 2. As town, while I will state if i disagree with a wagon, I'm more inclined to let a townread get limmed, rather than hard defend them to the bitter end early on, because 1) I could be wrong and 2) we still get information from a green flip.

I also used to cater my scumgame to anyone I recognised in the game, and would try and mimic a town game I had with them to try and get someone to town read me, but I got caught out for doing this a few times so tried to stop (I think Hard Boiled is a game where this happened - somebody alt-slipped, and I had played with their alt before, so I basically blatantly changed how I was posting to mimic the town game and got called out for it )

I don't know how well that answers your question but here you go.

[Thomith]

The rest of their posting also feels like how I used to play as scum which is what is also pinging me too - looking like you are contributing, but in reality not being the main person pushing things through so other people take the heat

A little self-meta question here but what do you think the main difference between your town and scum game is?

It's been a long ass time since I rolled scum so the completely honest answer is I don't know confidently anymore.

From what I do remember, I feel like I am a lot more confident in my reads as scum, mainly because obviously I had more information, whereas as Town, I'm less likely to fully commit to a read in fear of being wrong. (the fear of being wrong is still prevalent I've found since I've returned, maybe I just need to start full sending reads with false confidence until they gradually start improving). I tended to try to avoid being the sole person reading someone a certain way to prevent how much I stood out, so I at the very least had to 1v1 with someone should a read on a certain player end up being suspicious.

I also hard bussed at least one scum member way too fucking much

I remember preferring multiball scum games, because I found it easier to make my reads look genuine, because I could genuinely be scumhunting for the other scumteam.

Granted I know this kind of makes me look bad here, but I know I used to try and buddy up to the early wagons a lot as scum so I'd look like the person that was arguing against a bad wagon if a townie flipped Day 1 or 2. As town, while I will state if i disagree with a wagon, I'm more inclined to let a townread get limmed, rather than hard defend them to the bitter end early on, because 1) I could be wrong and 2) we still get information from a green flip.

I also used to cater my scumgame to anyone I recognised in the game, and would try and mimic a town game I had with them to try and get someone to town read me, but I got caught out for doing this a few times so tried to stop (I think Hard Boiled is a game where this happened - somebody alt-slipped, and I had played with their alt before, so I basically blatantly changed how I was posting to mimic the town game and got called out for it )

I don't know how well that answers your question but here you go.

Oh!
I do know this from my difference in crewmate and impostor play from among us which I feel like would also probably apply here.
When I'm crewmate I tend to throw out theories or just say things and see what sticks, whereas as impostor I'm more careful with what I share and when.
I feel like this did kind of link back to playing Mafia here, where I tend to worry about my posting more as Mafia than I do as town.

[Thomith]

JacksonVirgo
Dannflor

Black
Gamma Emerald

ssbm_kyouko

Katsuki
KittyTacky
Hu Tao

davesaz
camelCasedSnivy

You think all scum were on the Naerys lim?

I honestly didn't take that into consideration when making this list, so should probably rethink some of this lost now you've pointed that out.

[Thomith]

VOTE: CCS

[Thomith]

How well do you know Danns play Black?
Is there a world where he's catering to you so you TR him?

Do you think this is happening? Or did you - I'm pretty far behind today

Not necessarily, I just like to know the possibility of this when someone replaces in, then somebodies opinion on the replaced slot changes soon after.

[Thomith]

I'll be honest I'm feeling sick as a fucking dog today, so this is probably a follow along day rather than an actively participate day.

I may chime in a little - I do intend to answer 1802 at some point, just not sure when.

Out of curiosity Black, did you ever read my self meta?

[Thomith]

Did anyone ever explain why we are convinced there is 1 scum off wagon?

[Thomith]

I still wanna know what is the deal with the obsession over being off-wagon, I asked before and nobody answered. I don't understand it9

I feel like it's been mentioned a couple of times at least - doesn't seem like there would be 3 scum on Naerys, therefore 1 or 2 should be off wagon

@Thom

I don't see how that answers my question?
Why is it not being seen as a possibility that all 3 scum were on wagon?

[Thomith]

Before that exchange. I thought she was sus around thinking your vote was a guilty

Didn't you also think it was a guilty though? Are there specific posts you find suspicious that differ from your own behavior?

How well do you know Danns play Black?
Is there a world where he's catering to you so you TR him?

Do you think this is happening? Or did you - I'm pretty far behind today

Not necessarily, I just like to know the possibility of this when someone replaces in, then somebodies opinion on the replaced slot changes soon after.

Ok this makes sense. Were you TRing Dragon before the replacement? I don't remember - I thought this was a strange question to be asking one TR about another TR

I was TRing Dragon.
I'm confused as to why you think it's weird to question one TR about another TR so I'm not too sure how to explain my reasoning here?

[Thomith]

Before that exchange. I thought she was sus around thinking your vote was a guilty

Didn't you also think it was a guilty though? Are there specific posts you find suspicious that differ from your own behavior?

How well do you know Danns play Black?
Is there a world where he's catering to you so you TR him?

Do you think this is happening? Or did you - I'm pretty far behind today

Not necessarily, I just like to know the possibility of this when someone replaces in, then somebodies opinion on the replaced slot changes soon after.

Ok this makes sense. Were you TRing Dragon before the replacement? I don't remember - I thought this was a strange question to be asking one TR about another TR

I was TRing Dragon.
I'm confused as to why you think it's weird to question one TR about another TR so I'm not too sure how to explain my reasoning here?

specifically because the implication of the question is that Dragon's replacement is doing something insidious - it feels like it would sow doubt and I don't quite understand why you'd want to do that with 2 of your TRs. I understand wanting to bridge the gap between 2 TRs but that's not what your question felt like it aimed to do

Okay I understand. I see where it may come across as me sowing doubt.

I guess I kind of was doing that? The point of that question was more for me to understand why it seemed that Black 180'd on scumreading the DannDragon slot to TRing it - if it was just on Dann's play, I don't want the slot to get hard tunnel TRed if there is a chance Dann just knows how to cater to Black.
I wasn't trying to be like "No don't TR Dann!", because I do TR him too, but I didn't want the read to be locked in as town on the off chance it was wrong - I at least wanted Black to be open to the idea way down the line if needed is all.

[Thomith]

Let me try and explain it better.
It seemed Black SR'ed the DannDragon slot.
Dann replaces in, and Black TRs the slot due to Dann's play.
This is fine, but slots are still scummy even if someone replaces out, and the speed of the switch from SR to TR made me worry about a pocket, if I am wrong about Black or Dann.
I know Black probably knows this, she is a very good player, but I pointed it out just to make sure it was at least on her mind, again more for down the line than right now.

Does that make more sense?

[Thomith]

thomith do you have a post or posts where you explain why you're town reading me slot / dragon? that's a surprisingly against the grain read

I'll check later (maybe tomorrow, I don't feel like ISO diving myself right now), I feel like I have at least explained my TR on you.
My TR on Dragon grew stronger because of how quickly his wagon grew early on today.

Remind me if I don't please.

[Thomith]

I think that's 2 people now that said they wanted to vote Dragon but didn't because he was already at E-2.
The fact he has enough people wanting to vote him to hammer already is giving me pause.

I feel like he's either getting hard bussed, or this is a townie scum want out of the game.

I feel like there's probably at least 1 scum on him right now either way.

idk i don't like the number of posts defending my slot because of the amount of consensus and/or speed of the wagon

I think it's pretty natural for town who see their town reads being run up to want to defend them, but they usually have play arguments to defend with

all thomith seems to use is wagonomics and I don't really see anything in their posts that reads like they are really trying to *convince* anyone of their town read on me - despite having me as their top town read?

It even kinda seems like they are trying to talk Black out of their about face on me, which is really weird from someone who, again, already has me as their top town read

it reads like they want my wagon to go through by want to keep their hands clean and that's the position I'd most expect scum to take up with how this day phase has unfolded

Looking back and I legitimately did think I explained why I thought you were town but it doesn't look like I actually did so here goes.

I do think you are genuinely trying to solve - your progressions seem genuine and you seemed to be posting like you were spewing your thoughts, which to me feels like it would be hard to fake? Even if some of your posts aren't explained at the time (such as 1398), when questioned on them the answer again feels as if you are trying to solve.

I don't see scum questioning someones TR of them like Dann did in 1630, and probably would just let it ride?
Posts similar to 1631 also read as genuine - as scum I also feel like you'd be more likely to try and pushing something more convincing through, but knowing the limits of this also felt real.

also just in general i get the most feeling of

null / emptiness reading thomith's posts versus anyone else in the game

like they aren't trying to step on too many toes

I explained this a bit in the self-meta, but I'm not super confident as Town, so me "trying not to step on toes" is because I'm generally just not super confident on reads to try and prove/disprove someone. It is an issue I have as Town which I do want to try and improve on.

Since it seems like people are convinced there is a scum in the 4 off-wagon, and also seem convinced that the scum is probably me, me getting faded today isn't the worst thing, as me flipping green will force people to reassess this read, which might open up the game more to other people being discussed that isn't just Me/Dann/CCS/Gamma/JV.

[Thomith]

I think we need to start looking into why it took so long for us to get any kind of answer about why there "has" to be someone off Naerys wagon as scum, and then the answer that was given seemed to boil down to "because there has to be"

Depending on how some of the people off wagon start flipping, I feel like there's a world where this is a scum rhetoric to get focus off of the wagon.
Thinking about it, it could just be as simple as the scum off wagon are more TR than the scum on wagon, which may be why focus was pushed there?

[Thomith]

I don't remember anyone not explaining why they think scum might be off the wagon, and I also don't remember anyone saying scum HAS to be off the wagon

The whole "scum off wagon" thing started with me. I just felt like it wasn't super likely that all three scum were on the wagon, and at the time I was townreading a lot of people on it. Trying to solve within 4 people felt like a good idea to me but I never said we should only focus on them today

I do remember you explaining it linking with your TR's which is at least something, but it felt like every other answer boiled down to either just not thinking all 3 scum were on the wagon with no further explanation, or just no response when people were questioning it.

[Thomith]

Mafia is hard and I think finding one scum in a group of four makes it a little easier. I realize that I could be wrong and that all three scum could be on the wagon

Again, this is fair. I'm saying this knowing I am town, and thinking that the other 3 people off the wagon are town too, so I understand my viewpoint is biased on the matter.

[Thomith]

JacksonVirgo
Dannflor

Black
Gamma Emerald

ssbm_kyouko

Katsuki
KittyTacky
Hu Tao

davesaz
camelCasedSnivy

You think all scum were on the Naerys lim?

I honestly didn't take that into consideration when making this list, so should probably rethink some of this lost now you've pointed that out.

Was this a real thought? If you don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on the wagon then why did you post this?

It was a real thought, it was as simple as I just didn't take it into consideration when making the list.

It's not that I don't think it's unlikely, I just see a world where the narrative where all 3 scum couldn't have been on the wagon could be a narrative potentially spread by scum, simply because of how it was almost taken as a fact, with only really you giving anything more to the argument (by you saying you TR enough of the people on-wagon to suspect not all scum were there).

[Thomith]

JacksonVirgo
Dannflor

Black
Gamma Emerald

ssbm_kyouko

Katsuki
KittyTacky
Hu Tao

davesaz
camelCasedSnivy

You think all scum were on the Naerys lim?

I honestly didn't take that into consideration when making this list, so should probably rethink some of this lost now you've pointed that out.

Was this a real thought? If you don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on the wagon then why did you post this?

It was a real thought, it was as simple as I just didn't take it into consideration when making the list.

It's not that I don't think it's unlikely,

I just see a world where the narrative where all 3 scum couldn't have been on the wagon could be a narrative potentially spread by scum, simply because of how it was almost taken as a fact

, with only really you giving anything more to the argument (by you saying you TR enough of the people on-wagon to suspect not all scum were there).

The bolded being a new revelation today.

[Thomith]

JacksonVirgo
Dannflor

Black
Gamma Emerald

ssbm_kyouko

Katsuki
KittyTacky
Hu Tao

davesaz
camelCasedSnivy

You think all scum were on the Naerys lim?

I still wanna know what is the deal with the obsession over being off-wagon, I asked before and nobody answered. I don't understand it9

I feel like it's been mentioned a couple of times at least - doesn't seem like there would be 3 scum on Naerys, therefore 1 or 2 should be off wagon

While not outright saying they can't be, the above two posts seem pretty close in my opinion.

[Thomith]

Kyouko's more than Gamma's granted, but I feel like a narrative can be pushed without people saying something has to be true?

[Thomith]

I'm curious if you considered that two of your top townreads and a null read were the ones that proposed this theory. Does this make you feel worse about us?

It in all honesty depends how the 4 off wagon start flipping (I know how counter-intuitive this sounds to what I'm saying), if it does end up obvious that the 4 off wagon are likely town, then yes, it would.
Right now, I am aware I may be tinfoiling.

[Thomith]

Fuck it
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kyouko

P-edit: Well now it looks like I'm just sheeping...

[Thomith]

Did anyone ever explain why we are convinced there is 1 scum off wagon?

I don't think any scum team is stupid enough to all vote the same. Straight forward enough for you?

Why would it be stupid to all vote the same?

[Thomith]

Reading those pages again didn't do anything to reload what I was thinking at the time.

Dannflor is more concrete to me than Dragon was.
It bothered me quite a lot to see multiple people continue to refer to Dragon as if Dann wasn't here.
Thomith sure seems invested a lot in excluding a set of off-wagon people from consideration. Why can't all scum be on wagon is not the right question to ask. The correct question to ask is why not also look for people on the wagon.

How is what I'm doing any different from people who only want to look off wagon?

[Thomith]

Reading those pages again didn't do anything to reload what I was thinking at the time.

Dannflor is more concrete to me than Dragon was.
It bothered me quite a lot to see multiple people continue to refer to Dragon as if Dann wasn't here.
Thomith sure seems invested a lot in excluding a set of off-wagon people from consideration. Why can't all scum be on wagon is not the right question to ask. The correct question to ask is why not also look for people on the wagon.

How is what I'm doing any different from people who only want to look off wagon?

I don't know who is saying look only off wagon. I see some preference for looking there first, in comparison to a preference for not looking there at all. Or at least that's how I'm interpreting what I'm seeing.

The whole day today people have been detracting from looking on wagon, to only focus on off wagon.

My tinfoil gains more likelihood if people in the 4 off wagon start flipping scum.

I've said you'll can fade me today, but when I flop town you'll should look at the people advocating for looking primarily off wagon, because it feels like it could be an agenda to hide scum on the wagon. As I said before thay agenda could even be that the scum off wagon is more widely town read, so the focus is being pushed there.

[Thomith]

Vote me then. Push me. Explain to the class why I'm scum instead of just popping in with shade every now and then. The confidence in your read mixed with your lack of action makes zero sense from a town!you perspective

Sure it makes sense; I already have a scumwagon at L-1.

You could always just hammer him, and if he flips town, I sheep you the rest of the game no questions asked.

No way this is a real thought. You only think I'm scum if Dragondann is scum, yet you haven't found a townie post in my entire ISO and you think this:

Your scum and town games are so incredibly distinct from one another that it's personally obvious to me. All the things I noticed from this game were missing from every town game of yours, and only present in the scum games.

Like you have got to be joking

where is the second quote from, it piques my interest

2004

Didn't Katsuki mention something about jot being familiar with Black? How do they suddenly know the difference between her town and scum play?

[Thomith]

Vote me then. Push me. Explain to the class why I'm scum instead of just popping in with shade every now and then. The confidence in your read mixed with your lack of action makes zero sense from a town!you perspective

Sure it makes sense; I already have a scumwagon at L-1.

You could always just hammer him, and if he flips town, I sheep you the rest of the game no questions asked.

No way this is a real thought. You only think I'm scum if Dragondann is scum, yet you haven't found a townie post in my entire ISO and you think this:

Your scum and town games are so incredibly distinct from one another that it's personally obvious to me. All the things I noticed from this game were missing from every town game of yours, and only present in the scum games.

Like you have got to be joking

where is the second quote from, it piques my interest

2004

Didn't Katsuki mention something about jot being familiar with Black? How do they suddenly know the difference between her town and scum play?

Oh I guess it was a meta dive. Carry on.

[Thomith]

if Dann is a PR he's a scum PR, this continued defeatism from both members of the slot is not what town PR does.

Yeah I'm saying he's possibly a POWERFUL WEREWOLF if that wasn't clear.

Oh.
I guess I'm probably just wrong with my read then.
If this ends up being true, Katsuki is town.

[Thomith]

Can we talk about that obvious fake hammer yet?

[Thomith]

Dann should probably claim?

[Thomith]

I'm guessing Black was the night kill. Katsuki a vig shot? They should have just shot gamma slot after what was said yesterday. I think gamma thought that kyouko had a guilty on her partner.

I assumed the other way round?

Katsuki to me was kind of conftown after the Dann push (although with some of the thinks they were saying I did assume they had a guilty on Dann)

Also (unless I am understanding it wrong) I think Danns inventions (at least two of them) just outright kill the player they're given to? So it could have been because of that there were 2 kills)

[Thomith]

Btw, my initial thought because this game is 12 players and complex is that there's probably only 2 scum but one is a vigilante

I'm kinda disappointed I didn't roll mafia vigilante tbh

Also a small part of me is tinfoiling that this was a softclaim of there being 2 scum, thought I'd raise it as a point to consider, but again, could be being crazy.

[Thomith]

Okay I think I understand. So Dann gives a town member an inventor shot. And the town member gives someone a vig shot? But if they gave that vig shot to scum the town member dies?

Dann gives a vig shot to a town player and the town player HAS to use it.
Compulsive vig bg - they shoot their target, but protect them, so they die instead.
Compulsive vig hider - they shoot their target, but die as well as they are hiding behind someone that dies.
Compulsive strong-willed weak vig - they shoot their target, but die as well if they shoot Mafia. This shot can't be roleblocked.

[Thomith]

[*] Players are not inherently multitasking (and so may not submit more than one action per phase)
[*]

There is exactly one Godfather.

[*]

There are no Serial Killers

.

These on the rules are important. If there is only 1 scum left then that'd mean godfather is the only left? But I'd rather keep it safe by assuming there is still 2 scum left

For sure let's be safe and assume 2, just something I wanted to point out.
Godfather + whatever the hell that inventor is seems like a fair bit of power, so I'd probably assume a 3rd wolf if it exists is probably a Goon?

[Thomith]

Is there a world where scums only way of killing would be through the inventor, or would that not be normal?

[Thomith]

Is there a world where scums only way of killing would be through the inventor, or would that not be normal?

Nevermind read danns role PM, this isn't the case.

P-edit: yeah, that

[Thomith]

I'm more trying to figure out wtf is going on with the setup for my own curiosity.

Also trying to figure out how Black/Katsuki died to see if we can figure out motivations.

I can stop if we feel its not productive though.

[Thomith]

At least we should only have one of these extra vigs, unless wolves had more than one inventor to start with.
N1: Dann gives level 1 inventor to town
N2: some townie gives whichever shot Dann chose to use to someone. Dann is already limmed so no more shots from that source.

We still have the missing N1 kill, and something else caused a 2nd N2 kill since neither of those deaths can be from one of the "inner" inventions yet. The earliest an inner invention can be used is N3.

Do not hammer until we have a good handle on what the recipient should do. Worst case is a 3 kill night and all could be town if the 2nd recipient is town, has the vig/hider, and targets town (killing their target and themself), plus a wolf kill.

Where did you get the bolded from?

[Thomith]

The person that had the inventor would have acted last night, I don't know what you're on about N3 for

I think he is assuming the inventions have to be used on order?

[Thomith]

That's not how inventor works I don't think.

[Thomith]

Let's say I'm an inventor that can give out doctor shots.

Night 1: I give you a doctor shot
Night 2: you can use the doctor shot.

Because in this case Damn gives compulsive shots, the recipient HAS to use it Night 2

[Thomith]

Inventor gives a thing. The given thing is not used the same night it is given. If it were there would need to be 2 night deadlines, one to give it and another to use it.

Dann gives out inventor shots. Read the role card very carefully.

I'm not saying it gets used the same night given.
Night 1 he gave someone a shot thay was used Night 2.
He died day 2, so nothing else was given out, so none of his inventor things are being used Night 3

[Thomith]

[*] Players are not inherently multitasking (and so may not submit more than one action per phase)
[*]

There is exactly one Godfather.

[*]

There are no Serial Killers

.

These on the rules are important. If there is only 1 scum left then that'd mean godfather is the only left? But I'd rather keep it safe by assuming there is still 2 scum left

The reason why I'm thinking 2 scum is even possible, because in effect, scum could technically get 2 kills a night on night 1 and 2, with Danns compulsive vig bg shots he gave out. The swing then gets even greater if the person who then gets given compulsive vig hider misfires.

[Thomith]

this just occured to me but +town points for everyone who misundersteanding dannfloor's role since his scumbuddies would probably already have received an explaination

OR, scum don't wanna seem like they know too much and thus are faking confusion

Hence the "+town points" and not "OK SO EVERYONE WHO MADE A SINGLE MISTAKE IS TOWN"

Especially think dave's misundersteanding is towny

I agree with davesaz reaction/confusion seeming genuine.

[Thomith]

The more I do setup spec the more I'm convinced it's 2 scum, so might need someone to pull me out of the spiral.

We could have outright been in ELo today with 3 scum if we mislimmed on Day 1 and 2, which seems crazy.
Even if we then limmed correctly in ELo, town would just lose because of the vig bg shot.

[Thomith]

Day 1
9 Town 3 Scum - Let's say we mislimmed here

Night 1
8 town 3 scum - Compulsive Vig BG shot gets given out + scum kill

Day 2
7 town 3 scum - let's say we mislimmed here

Night 2
6 town 3 scum - vig bg shot gets used and the second one gets given

Day 3
4 town 3 scum ELo

Even if we lim correctly in hypothetical Day 3 ELo, we still just lose because of the vig bg shot.

I get this is worst case scenario, but the fact that's even possible is what's making me almost convinced it's not 3 scum.

I'll stop there now, I hear y'all saying to focus on other stuff.

[Thomith]

The more I do setup spec the more I'm convinced it's 2 scum, so might need someone to pull me out of the spiral.

I don't think it matters whether or not we do, if you can argue it changes what we have to do I'll listen to setup spec but otherwise can we just focus on other things?

I'd argue it 100% does matter, because I feel like a 3 person team would have much different interactions than a 2 person team?

[Thomith]

The more I do setup spec the more I'm convinced it's 2 scum, so might need someone to pull me out of the spiral.

We could have outright been in ELo today with 3 scum if we mislimmed on Day 1 and 2, which seems crazy.
Even if we then limmed correctly in ELo, town would just lose because of the vig bg shot.

Yeah. The fact we had no nk n1 could mean godfather has another ability in its role and they just didn't maul n1. Or a doc save. Unsure

Could be, I checked and I don't think multitasking is automatically on on this game.

[Thomith]

I'd argue it 100% does matter, because I feel like a 3 person team would have much different interactions than a 2 person team?

Would it change anything to do with us seeing who is scummy and voting out the scummiest? It is all just semantics on top of that, or we throw ourselves down the wrong tunnel and lim incorrectly based on that. If it's a traitor game, we can cut the mafia off by the head and the traitor will follow suit and die. We don't need to be playing differently whether or not there is a traitor or not

Now we have a scum flipped, having a better idea of how scum could have been interacting with each other I think could genuinely help us.
My point was I think this could be 10 Town vs 2 Scum, not that there's a traitor.

[Thomith]

Well, i guess we can give a pass for enchant today and kill them tommrow if they're still alive?

Enchant was talking about the roles that the flipped scum inventor could give out, not claiming compulsive BG Vig

P-edit: now im confused, what are you talking about ?

[Thomith]

I'm pretty sure they were asking why the person that was given a suicidal vig shot didn't claim. (Assuming someone was I guess, but idk why you'd give out a non suicidal shot first)

[Thomith]

I'm a little confused as to why we are assuming scum have a backup?

[Thomith]

I'm a little confused as to why we are assuming scum have a backup?

Did you miss any sections of posts?

Oh. I think I understand.

[Thomith]

yo yo yo (it's like a yo yo but moves in all three dimentions at once)
I'm not going to religiously read 93 pages so throw things at me to look at so I can catch up
or don't, up to you i guess

Hello Elements!

At the very least maybe ISO The Dann slot with the alive people to maybe find pairings?

[Thomith]

I feel like Day 2 was a big day, so might be a good idea to be familiar with it too.

[Thomith]

Depressed is the wrong term, demotivated probably

I can start arguing with you if that'd help?

[Thomith]

If there is a roleblocker that did block someone night 1 I think they at least should out that information because I do think that helps us. If its ambiguous if you blocked or protected (JK, Alien ect), then I don't think you should claim. Maybe see if you can soft a N1 target though though just in case, but don't do that if you think it'd be obvious.

As for a mass claim I think I'm okay waiting otherwise.

[Thomith]

If I do yet another (I think it's the fourth) "delve into my brain" session today. I'm fairly confident that all three in { dave, hu tao, enchant } are all town, with enough a degree of confidence that I would probably need mech information to consider changing my stance on them. Does anybody disagree with any of these, if so why? I feel this is a good topic to bring up with a stagnant game as I don't want to be complacent just because of a slow game (to my standards anyway).

Least sure on Hu Tao, because of early game, but also willing to say they've earned a lot of scum points since then, so I still think they're probably town.
Enchant I think I need to see more of before I form a read either way.

[Thomith]

I feel like a Gunsmith claim isn't that unbelievable in this setup?

[Thomith]

Just realised I mixed enchant and elements, rip

And you made me do it too