Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[DragonEater70]

Confession: the other day I had the opportunity to eat pizza and I gave it up for a chicken wrap, because I was tired of pizza.

Yes, I'm a heretic. VOTE: Dragon


Also, HEAL: Klick in the hopes he's town again and we just lick this game in 20 pages.

[DragonEater70]

I rolled town both times

In a game I modded recently I accidentally replaced 2 players into 1 slot and then left the incorrect Town Roleblocker role PM for the 2nd player sitting in their inbox for 2 hours until I realized my mistake… Luckily they didn’t read it

I only got one PM

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Klick

[DragonEater70]

implo and t3 prob town for now.

I disagree, implo is prob scum

T3 is null but has slight town equity if implo is scum due to unlikeliness of TRing own partner alone, IMO.

VOTE: implo

[DragonEater70]

Confession: the other day I had the opportunity to eat pizza and I gave it up for a chicken wrap, because I was tired of pizza.

Yes, I'm a heretic. VOTE: Dragon


Also, HEAL: Klick in the hopes he's town again and we just lick this game in 20 pages.

ya

"ya" as in "ya Klick is town"?

HURT: Klick

o



y?

It was just a reaction test to get some AI content, but it's pointless now since we already have AI content from people interacting with imp's reads.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: DragonEater70

y?

[DragonEater70]

To clarify I faked an SR of Klick ehen I had no read on him at all

[DragonEater70]

HURT: DragonEater70

y?

To clarify I faked an SR of Klick ehen I had no read on him at all

Because I picked up on this and wanted to decide whether you were doing it because of that reason, or because you were scum unsure of how to interact with me not responding to you

Oh nice

We read each other well, then

[DragonEater70]

HEAL: Klick, Appearance, Dragon

[DragonEater70]

why appearance?

It's not a fully developed read so I'd rather keep it to myself until it develops.

Why did you ask about my Appearance read and not about my imp read?

[DragonEater70]

Actually let me just explain my Appearance read

I thought this:

hi y'all!
will post more later

Quickly followed by this:

implo and t3 prob town for now.

Was more likely to come from town. Felt like a towny who didn't plan to post a read or anything but had a thought so posted it.

I also think that having 2 reads is likelier to come from town than from scum, who (like implo did) would be more likely to have a single read.

[DragonEater70]

why appearance?

It's not a fully developed read so I'd rather keep it to myself until it develops.

Why did you ask about my Appearance read and not about my imp read?

Because of the nature of the setup.

Is it surprising that I would be more focused on your townreads than your scumread/s?

It has nothing to do with townreads vs scumreads, I just thought it would be easier for other people to see why Appearance was town compared to why implo was scum, and therefore expected to be questioned about the latter rather than the first.

The fact that you didn't question me about the latter read made me think that perhaps you agreed with it (or dismissed it, if scum), so I wanted to ascertain which one it was.

[DragonEater70]

Regardless, I disagree with you about the (implied) idea that we should focus on townreads more than on scumreads. I am of the opinion that it is much easier for scum to fake townreads than scumreads (because the person they are townreading is actually town, most of the time, and they could have good reasons to TR them), and by focusing on townreads we're letting scum blend in much more easily.

In other words, it's very easy to say "I love pizza and I think Klick also loves pizza", and doesn't really lead to any conflict, whereas saying "I think implo secretly loves lasagna" is bound to stir the pot, so to speak.

[DragonEater70]

I'm also surprised by my sudden display of eloquence, something I had forgone in my past games on this site.

Nevertheless, I shall enjoy it. Eloquent writing is one of my favorite things in the world.

[DragonEater70]

Why don't we not focus on either to begin with and just play normal mafia, then figure stuff out later in the day when we get closer to the deadline

Yeah that's what I was meaning.

[DragonEater70]

Regardless, I disagree with you about the (implied) idea that we should focus on townreads more than on scumreads. I am of the opinion that it is much easier for scum to fake townreads than scumreads (because the person they are townreading is actually town, most of the time, and they could have good reasons to TR them), and by focusing on townreads we're letting scum blend in much more easily.

In other words, it's very easy to say "I love pizza and I think Klick also loves pizza", and doesn't really lead to any conflict, whereas saying "I think implo secretly loves lasagna" is bound to stir the pot, so to speak.

this is just the wrong strategy for the setup, and also if you think like this,

isn't giving out 2 townreads something scum is more likely to do?

I don't think this idea that "focusing on townreads let's scum blend in" is your actual opinion if you're giving out a TR to Appearance for giving 2 TRs early in separated posts. Pretty much everything you've posted so far feels like a performance, and to cap it off with this I just think you're trying to throw a wrench in the coalition phase.

Not really unless you think scum is more likely to give 2 TR's in regular mafia (which I don't think).

On the other hand this post feels really forced. How would me having scumreads be throwing a wrench in the formation of the coalition? If anything I'm the person working most actively on forming a coalition, considering I have 3 people in my coalition while you only have yourself.

HURT: Kyo, implo

[DragonEater70]

elements maybe town for not focusing so much on forming a townblock.

half my posts are about towning T3?

HEAL: Elements

[DragonEater70]

Goodnight

[DragonEater70]

Regardless, I disagree with you about the (implied) idea that we should focus on townreads more than on scumreads. I am of the opinion that it is much easier for scum to fake townreads than scumreads (because the person they are townreading is actually town, most of the time, and they could have good reasons to TR them), and by focusing on townreads we're letting scum blend in much more easily.

In other words, it's very easy to say "I love pizza and I think Klick also loves pizza", and doesn't really lead to any conflict, whereas saying "I think implo secretly loves lasagna" is bound to stir the pot, so to speak.

this is just the wrong strategy for the setup, and also if you think like this,

isn't giving out 2 townreads something scum is more likely to do?

I don't think this idea that "focusing on townreads let's scum blend in" is your actual opinion if you're giving out a TR to Appearance for giving 2 TRs early in separated posts. Pretty much everything you've posted so far feels like a performance, and to cap it off with this I just think you're trying to throw a wrench in the coalition phase.

Not really unless you think scum is more likely to give 2 TR's in regular mafia (which I don't think).

On the other hand this post feels really forced.

How would me having scumreads be throwing a wrench in the formation of the coalition?

If anything I'm the person working most actively on forming a coalition, considering I have 3 people in my coalition while you only have yourself.

HURT: Kyo, implo

This is not the point I'm making. In 46, you say that we should focus scumreads more than townreads because focusing townreads lets scum blend in. At the same time, you say Appearance is town and so far all he'd done was give out 2 unexplained TRs. If you think scum blends in by focusing on TRs, you don't also think that Appearance is town. You're claiming to have one philosophy on how to play the setup that contradicts your reads.

Actually let me just explain my Appearance read

I thought this:

hi y'all!
will post more later

Quickly followed by this:

implo and t3 prob town for now.

Was more likely to come from town. Felt like a towny who didn't plan to post a read or anything but had a thought so posted it.

I also think that having 2 reads is likelier to come from town than from scum, who (like implo did) would be more likely to have a single read.

Misrep.

I merely said we shouldn't have our entire focus on TR's, like DeasVail seemed to insinuate.

[DragonEater70]

Regardless,

I disagree with you about the (implied) idea that we should focus on townreads more than on scumreads.

I am of the opinion that it is much easier for scum to fake townreads than scumreads (because the person they are townreading is actually town, most of the time, and they could have good reasons to TR them), and by focusing on townreads we're letting scum blend in much more easily.

In other words, it's very easy to say "I love pizza and I think Klick also loves pizza", and doesn't really lead to any conflict, whereas saying "I think implo secretly loves lasagna" is bound to stir the pot, so to speak.

[DragonEater70]

ssbm, elements, t3 and appearance are all provisional townreads for me

Why do you TR kyo?

[DragonEater70]

I love how you say you

used to

say "this is more likely to come from town than scum" in the past, and immediately follow it with "I think this posting is more likely to come from town than scum" (not saying this is alignment indicative, just find it funny). As a note, yeah that's an early game read, not a lategame read.

Also Klick can you help me out here? I think you should understand why I would consider a fast-paced, TvT-heavy game start to be superior to a slow and "wow everyone is so towny" game start, considering how well our last TvT-heavy game went. And this game I feel everyone is just TRing other people and trying not to step on anybody's toes (except me, Kyo, and you to a degree). Which makes it very hard to read people.

So if you can help me push this game into TvT (or even TvS) territory that'd help.

Pedit: to me, making it out like that philosophy should dictate my every thought is a "misrep" of my intentions, so that's what I call it.

Also, what do you make of DV's post being the way it is?

[DragonEater70]

Goodnight, I will await your answer tomorrow.

[DragonEater70]

Besides, the game is nearly won anyway even without that

Oh, you think saw? Curious if you have the same solve as me then or you are referring to something else.

[DragonEater70]

Think so

Duh

[DragonEater70]

K game solved

HEAL: Klick, Appearance, Dragon, Elements, Ydra

Fun fact, I had this as a meme solve before Ydra or Elements even posted because I'm that smart.

[DragonEater70]

Though tbh Ydra could in theory be scum so I urge you all not to blindly sheep me before we do some more solving and stuff

[DragonEater70]

Actually nah maybe I'm tring something NAI

HURT: Ydra

I want to ask some questions first.

Pedit: There's no depth, that's why I'm unvoting. Questions will come in a few minutes to sort you.

[DragonEater70]

Okay so

I actually have questions for DV as well. Can you explain the implo read and the Ydra read?

Now for Ydra:
1. Do you disagree with my read on Appearance? Why?
2. From 1 to 10, how surface level would you say your read is implo / how confident are you about that read? I feel implo's play reads as pockety towards me and his TR of T3 feels like an afterthought of "I should probably TR someone to look good" rather than a real thought.

Pedit: wow DV answered my question before I asked.

[DragonEater70]

As for my read on Klick, he feels like he's not trying to be TR'd at all (unless he is playing a game of "let's pocket Dragon and get null'd by everybody else", which if it is the case then I wish him luck with that since idk how far it will get him), and I think that makes him pretty towny.

[DragonEater70]

this is a bizarre sequence

I sometimes post before I think. This tends to result in weird sequences.

[DragonEater70]

DragonEater has a certain aesthetic to his reasoning that reminds me of myself in a way, probably moreso in the past than now. The idea of viewing x thing as more/less likely to come from scum (i.e. reading 1 vs 2 people in an opening post) in such a way that really looks like splitting hairs unless you're the one making the claim. I think when I would post that way I probably tended to do it more as town than scum because it's a lot easier to naturally come up with a sort of hairbrained theory when you're genuinely thinking about the game. It's the kind of read I'd post in the first few pages and then go back and look at weeks later while rereading myself (as town) and genuinely have no idea how I came to the conclusion in the read. I think his first couple pages are fairly towny.

This is not the point I'm making. In 46, you say that we should focus scumreads more than townreads because focusing townreads lets scum blend in. At the same time, you say Appearance is town and so far all he'd done was give out 2 unexplained TRs. If you think scum blends in by focusing on TRs, you don't also think that Appearance is town. You're claiming to have one philosophy on how to play the setup that contradicts your reads.

I don't like this post/line of logic. It feels less like a misrep (i actually don't like dragoneater calling it a misrep) and more like it's reductive, like if Dragoneater claims to have a particular philosophy that he mentioned then that philosophy doesn't necessarily underrun everything that he thinks. It's lacking in consideration imo as a reason to scumread dragoneater (and it does look like kyouko is scumreading dragoneater).

I love how you say you used to say "this is more likely to come from town than scum" in the past, and immediately follow it with "I think this posting is more likely to come from town than scum" (not saying this is alignment indicative, just find it funny). As a note, yeah that's an early game read, not a lategame read.

i mean yeah i kind of realized i was doing this. the difference now is that i

think

i usually try to draw some concrete line of reasoning between the thing i'm analyzing and how i think someone would view the game as town or scum, 79 is a really good example because i have a very specific reason for thinking that post is extremely town, it's not just a hunch (and I'm not saying your reads are just hunches if you are town, but to me they sort of look the same as hunches without access to how you're actually thinking about the game, if that makes sense).

Also, what do you make of DV's post being the way it is?

This is a good question and I think the answer is that i'm not really sure and i should probably go to sleep.

All of this. I might be confbiasing, but I feel the tone of the TR on me isn't very genuine. I am not sure as town implo would really have this read on me. I am also not a fan of implo "not liking" things I did but TRing me anyway - it feels like trying too hard to add subtlety to the read that isn't really there.

And also it feels this sequence of posts has an underlying message of like "hey Dragon, we're similar and I should be your mentor", sort of.

[DragonEater70]

As for my read on Klick, he feels like he's not trying to be TR'd at all (unless he is playing a game of "let's pocket Dragon and get null'd by everybody else", which if it is the case then I wish him luck with that since idk how far it will get him), and I think that makes him pretty towny.

who do you think is trying to do that then?

he hasn’t posted a lot so i struggle to see how someone can very comfortably make that call i guess. there’s a part of me that thinks he could be playing a clever wolf game based on how he treated you by like… kind of uno carding you. i don’t know how likely this is but i felt it was possible, and if he was doing something like that he’s now got someone in his court without much loss. with what looks like recent history it makes sense to me that he might want to capitalize on that when presented with the chance, etc

implo is trying very hard to be TR'd.

[DragonEater70]

Yes, I am aware that Klick could be pocketing me potentially - I just don't think it's likely. I think as the game continues his alignment will be easier to discern, though.

[DragonEater70]

Yes.

[DragonEater70]

I’m flying back from holiday stuff tomorrow and should be pretty around generally after that.

T3 townish.

"I'll give an early read so I'll look towny"

DragonEater has a certain aesthetic to his reasoning that reminds me of myself in a way, probably moreso in the past than now. The idea of viewing x thing as more/less likely to come from scum (i.e. reading 1 vs 2 people in an opening post) in such a way that really looks like splitting hairs unless you're the one making the claim. I think when I would post that way I probably tended to do it more as town than scum because it's a lot easier to naturally come up with a sort of hairbrained theory when you're genuinely thinking about the game. It's the kind of read I'd post in the first few pages and then go back and look at weeks later while rereading myself (as town) and genuinely have no idea how I came to the conclusion in the read. I think his first couple pages are fairly towny.

Writes a very detailed take full of "nuance" or whatever, trying to give the impression that he is putting a lot of thought into the game.

This is not the point I'm making. In 46, you say that we should focus scumreads more than townreads because focusing townreads lets scum blend in. At the same time, you say Appearance is town and so far all he'd done was give out 2 unexplained TRs. If you think scum blends in by focusing on TRs, you don't also think that Appearance is town. You're claiming to have one philosophy on how to play the setup that contradicts your reads.

I don't like this post/line of logic. It feels less like a misrep (i actually don't like dragoneater calling it a misrep) and more like it's reductive, like if Dragoneater claims to have a particular philosophy that he mentioned then that philosophy doesn't necessarily underrun everything that he thinks. It's lacking in consideration imo as a reason to scumread dragoneater (and it does look like kyouko is scumreading dragoneater).

Again, there's a feeling like he is putting a lot of nuance in this post to look good. I have no idea what purpose this post serves other than putting on a show of having nuanced takes.

ssbm, elements, t3 and appearance are all provisional townreads for me

This is an interesting post, with me and Ydrasse having posted like once each at this point this is townreading everyone who has posted a fair amount except dragoneater and klick. I get townvibes from klick as well.

Tries to look like he has meaningful thoughts or like he's uninformed or something by calling this "interesting". When I ask him of he thinks it means anything he doesn't even have an answer. So this post is just there to look good, yet again.

[DragonEater70]

Last one is not damning by itself, but it looks in combination with the others.

19 - this is the least damning post, but out of everyone in RVS, it just pinged me as trying to be townread. It's definitely not impossible that a towny would do that, I just think it's VERY likely that a scummie would do that. Can't really explain my thought process here without overexplaining it to the point it almost becomes meaningless, so I totally understand if you choose to disregard it, but just know there is a thought process there.

Middle two - like obviously I don't disagree with him calling me town, but I just feel like the read is fake (as I said earlier), and even if it could be true he is using way too many words to describe it. I also don't disagree with not liking Kyo's line of logic, but I disagree with the rest of the post and think it's just there to add nuance that isn't really necessary.

[DragonEater70]

Here's an example of a completely overexplained and meaningless thought process from a completed game, if you are curious what I mean by that:

viewtopic.php?p=14018141#p14018141

[DragonEater70]

Though tbh Ydra could in theory be scum so I urge you all not to blindly sheep me before we do some more solving and stuff

No I think Ydrasse actually is just town

Oh good

So I

have

solved the game on page 2. Nice.

[DragonEater70]

I want to understand what your thoughts are about Dragon atm.

What are your thoughts? On any slot other than Ydra.

[DragonEater70]

have you checked that to how implosion normally plays?

I haven't actively checked, but I've read a scum game of his before and everything he's posted so far is within his scum range and fits my mental model of scum!implo.

Sort of edit:
Took a while to find because apparently he hasn't played a lot this year, but I just skimmed his iso in a town game of his, and I don't feel the same overly-nuanced tone in that town game at all.

[DragonEater70]

Klick, are you ignoring my questions to you on purpose?

[DragonEater70]

Alright game solved for realsies

HEAL: Klick, Appearance, Dragon, Elements, DeasVail

Now I just lurk until DV and Klick figure out this is the correct solve and then we just convince two others.

[DragonEater70]

I will be answering things addressed to me later on today, but first I want to express a general complaint. This is addressed at everyone:

I've given this game a 36 hour break, and I come back to maybe a single page worth of posts, more than half of which is people saying stuff into the air (most of which if we ignore implo's posts which I haven't fully read yet, is either stating TR's or asking about TR's) and not really moving the game along. THIS is what I was getting at as being anti-town earlier, NOT "having more townreads than scumreads".

I do not like this game state at all. Elements asked me who would I think I'm wrong about if my coalition fails, and currently I have NO IDEA because none of my reads are sufficiently evolved. How can I read anyone with no ACTION? I can't, and I bet you can't either.

What I want is a dynamic gamestate, like in this game or this second game or this other game (I chose those because they had a very strong sense of "something is actually happening" in the first three pages, and rhe conversationg goes somewhere). But instead there's just people townreading each other with almost no analysis and not even pushing who they think is scum, as scum.

You might think I'm just whining here, but what I actually want is to ask you people to bring this game to life and case people (idc for which alignment you case them) and hurt/heal people and react to stuff happening so we have a dynamic game and not just a pile of reads and questions about reads.

[DragonEater70]

Conflict isn't the friction that causes readable gamestates
Genuine engagement is

That's what I feel is lacking

I'll answer what you want though:

Feel pretty okay on you and VD, I would like you to sell me on Ydra though.

Like I think in a vacuum her posting is towny, BUT I

think

for her specifically it's NAI? I haven't ever played with her but I read a scum game and a town game of hers and couldn't really tell the difference.

[DragonEater70]

Alright game solved for realsies

HEAL: Klick, Appearance, Dragon, Elements, DeasVail

Now I just lurk until DV and Klick figure out this is the correct solve and then we just convince two others.

Any thoughts on who the reds in the other 4 are?
Or if you're wrong who you think you are most likely to be wrong about?

Of the others I'm most confident about implo, and don't really have any reason to TR either T3 or Kyo so either could be scum.

You are the one I'm most confident is town, tbh. I feel Klick is similar to his town game in a lot of ways, but in his recent scum game he was also very similar to his town game so I don't think it's impossible for him to fake this. VD is mainly a gutread at this point.

[DragonEater70]

Nice!

[DragonEater70]

i'm going to stop talking about that now

i think Elements/Klick/Ydrasse/Dragoneater/T3 is a pretty good pool of town. Elements I think actually should just be locktown for that one post, it's like a soft townslip. ssbm might actually just be town for healing them because I don't really know what scum gets out of that in this gamestate. Someone was saying they felt they wanted to re-evaluate T3 but idk. I'll probably do that at some point but shrug. I guess this leaves DV and Appearance and I don't really get why DV is being townread. I think I get why some people have called Appearance town but don't really see it.

Which post do you want to locktown Elements for? The 7 players thing?

[DragonEater70]

A few of your posts before this point have given the impression of not having enough time for the game/being busy with other things. So I’m interested in why your play before this point would be representative of your usual gameplay to the point where people’s experience with you would be so relevant.

To me, it feels premature to conclude that certain people townread/scumread you because of their experience with you.

I mean, Ydrasse literally asked Dragoneater if he'd checked if what he was seeing wasn't just how I usually played. Honestly I'm mostly annoyed at the way Dragoneater is acting toward me. I have been busy with other things but my first spate of posting was me with a decent amount of time to look at/think about things iirc so it's probably fairly representative of my typical gameplay

I totally understand your annoyance if you are town, but you gotta realize I got to get the game moving and currently that's the only thread I can pull on, and I

will

abuse it as much as I can to move the game forward.

I'm not really impressed with your self meta and general reaction to my push. If you are town and want to help me sort you, can you answer these questions please:
Who do you think has acted in an actual scummy way or did things you can point out as scum-motivated, other than just not being out of their scumrange like DV?
What do you think of Kyo's recent posting?
What do you think about my interaction with Klick and our reads on each other? (I'm interested both in your thoughts about his read on me, and my read on him).

These questions aren't busywork btw, they will definitely help me sort you.

[DragonEater70]

@implosion: Then what do you think of my post which was basically the same thing?

Your post is rhetorically very different and also I think your group has a much higher chance of being all town

To elaborate because on rereading your post this is probably very unclear: the rhetorical difference that concerns me is that DragonEater's post is more dismissive in a sense. He essentially is saying "this is the solve, deal with it" where you're trying to actively work with your townreads (which is not a concerning pattern of gamestate to me).

Oh so

It was a joke mainly

I just wanted to take a break from the game and see what DV and Klick cooked up (which actually worked)

[DragonEater70]

I am nit even saying you are wolfy

I am saying your posting is towny in a vacuum but probably NAI based on your specific scum game

Meaning that it's like null town

Also I should probably HURT: Appearance since they are also only null town

[DragonEater70]

I doubt you'd struggle to find reads if people aren't pushing each other but maybe

Are you kidding? I literally lurked half of BTXVIII (or whatever the number was, the one with the jesters) because I hated the gamestate where people were only trying to find town and felt I couldn't develop my reads properly.

[DragonEater70]

okay but what i’m saying is you’re interpreting my posting this game based on a separate game that isn’t this one poorly and i think you would have better results in this one if you thought about my posts from the angle of “

is there a wolfy agenda or motivation so far and if so what

”

So thing is, that's exactly the problem.

I've read Swinger's Hall where you were scum, and I didn't feel any of your posts had a wolfy agenda. Therefore I am making a deduction that your playstyle as a wolf doesn't look like you have an agenda, and therefore I am arriving at the conclusion that you not seeming to have a wolfy agenda is NAI, and that I need other ways to sort you.

Now what I would appreciate is if Klick, who correctly scumread you that game, explained to me what he saw that game that he isn't seeing here, or what is he seeing here that he didn't see that game, and then I could evaluate if there is indeed something that's objectively town indicative for you.

I AM leaning town on you FWIW.

[DragonEater70]

Yep

[DragonEater70]

Dragon were you town in that game with Keylaga?

Yep

Why?

[DragonEater70]

Oh

You don't, but you are town anyway.

[DragonEater70]

Appearance can you talk to me about your reads a bit

Just in general, why do you TR the people in your coal and who do you think is scummy

[DragonEater70]

I've written a wallpost on why implo's response to me is scummy but tbh I don't feel like posting it.

I mean, like Klick said, we're likely winning the game soon anyway. And I feel posting it would just lead to more wallposting and fatigue.

If someone really feels like reading a huge wallpost, let me know and I'll post it

For now the TLDR is that I feel implo tried to pocket me earlier, failed, and is now trying to discredit me.

[DragonEater70]

Oh also the way he's pointing out why my sorting of him is apparently in bad faith and saying he's "questioning" his read on me, but not actually actively scumreading me (with a coalition unvote), makes me feel like he's ready to backtrack on the scumread and go back to trying to pocket me if I ever townread him / give up the SR.



Anyway Klick

I understand what you said about Ydra, let me have a quick reread of her and I'll tell you what I think about her as a coalition member.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry, I somehow managed to get sidetracked from this TWICE

As for my read on Klick, he feels like he's not trying to be TR'd at all (unless he is playing a game of "let's pocket Dragon and get null'd by everybody else", which if it is the case then I wish him luck with that since idk how far it will get him), and I think that makes him pretty towny.

who do you think is trying to do that then?

he hasn’t posted a lot so i struggle to see how someone can very comfortably make that call i guess. there’s a part of me that thinks he could be playing a clever wolf game based on how he treated you by like… kind of uno carding you. i don’t know how likely this is but i felt it was possible, and if he was doing something like that he’s now got someone in his court without much loss. with what looks like recent history it makes sense to me that he might want to capitalize on that when presented with the chance, etc

What are you thinking about Klick right now?

[DragonEater70]

Anyway Klick

Having read Prism's last modded game, I have to conclude that WIM is probably NAI for Ydra? Considering she seemed to be low WIM as town in that one.

[DragonEater70]

I see

I will maintain my read on her as a weak townlean. It's pretty likely I'll end up healing her but I want to give the game a few more pages to solidify my reads

What do you think of Elements?

[DragonEater70]

Yeah the reason I asked was you did mention something about sitting down to olay this evening

And it feels pretty evening to me (though I guess in UK there's like 17 more minutes until it's officially evening)

[DragonEater70]

i only roll scum on my alts to hide the truth

I believe you

Still curious what you think of Klick

[DragonEater70]

So I'm not starting with much of a read at all on Elements. Up to this point I've mostly been reading with the lens of {town} vs. {???} and nothing Elements has done has obviously put them in the first bracket. I'll see if I can squeeze anything out of the slip argument that seems to be popular, but I didn't think much of it earlier.

I'm not TRing Elly for the slip

I think it's scum indicative to even call it a slip

[DragonEater70]

I'm TRing her for:

T3 townish.

I thought the same things from T3's first post

the "ok" one?

That's the one

That just feels like such a weird read to fake.

elements maybe town for not focusing so much on forming a townblock.

half my posts are about towning T3?

Rebutting a townread of her but without actually using the rebut to position herself, get town cred, or even as an excuse to form a read.

Dragon were you town in that game with Keylaga?

Yep

Why?

you feel similar

This could be faked, but considering her being uncomfortable with me in the coalition earlier I feel it's a weird approach for scum to just say that and I also just vibed with this because I believe that Elements would think that I feel similar.

[DragonEater70]

Also none of what I said is the real reason for the TR, it's actually a soulread. But like you said (or Dannflor said, idk), cases are for convincing people of a gutread, they are not the actual reason.

[DragonEater70]

Lack of attempted positioning, lack of attempt to play a part (you sort of have to coax her thought process out of her), if her reads are fake then she decided to fake some really questionable reads with like no reason.

[DragonEater70]

Alright I trust you to do the meta dive and let me know your conclusions

I wanna go read a book or something, haven't done that in a while.

P edit: LOL I might do that later

I love reading though

[DragonEater70]

I agree with your Dragon take

????

[DragonEater70]

As a more general succinct response to this reasoning, now that I've looked at Elements' gameplay in excruciating detail: I think you're assuming a lot more effort out of scum!Elements here than scum!Elements would actually have.

Not really

It's not the amount of effort

It's just a soulread

[DragonEater70]

I agree with your Dragon take

????

??????

Do you agree that there is no reason to TR me by play but i remind you of Mini Normal 2317? Because that is an extremely weird take if so.

[DragonEater70]

Okay, sounds legit

What do you think of Elements/Ydra/Klick/Dragon/DV?

[DragonEater70]

Yeah I'm pretty much at the same headspace except that Ydra and Elements are flipped for me

If you are scum you are really pocketing me well

So anyway how do we go about solidifying these reads

[DragonEater70]

I liked 131, 132, and the first two reads is 147 - but something doesn't fully sit right for me with regard to the read on Appearance

Maybe it's just DV's writing style but it feels sort of fake? IDK

Other than that these are exactly the posts I TR him for.

[DragonEater70]

Does it feel like performative trying to show considered thought of both sides of the Appearance coin to demonstrate a thought process?

Kinda?

[DragonEater70]

If you think that's just how he plays that does somewhat allay that doubt

Pedit: I meant like explain in detail

Also, who do you scumread?

[DragonEater70]

Also are you an alt? Somebody mentioned you were an alt

[DragonEater70]

You kinda ping me as being an alt of

RH9____

Anyway cool, I think you are town

[DragonEater70]

So if I get it correctly you have no scumreads at all?

[DragonEater70]

HEAL: Appearance

[DragonEater70]

Also I'm 99% about who you are but maybe I'm just confbiasing

[DragonEater70]

Yeah okay after reading DV's wallposts on the last page, I am pretty sure my coalition is either all town, or Klick is the deepwolf.

Can anybody here read Klick really well? DV? implo? Ydra? I'd like to know if you think Klick could be deepwolfing or nah

[DragonEater70]

I'm also just gonna read a few of his wolf games

[DragonEater70]

Good

Then I'm sold on this coalition

[DragonEater70]

I'm also just gonna read a few of his wolf games

Turns out Klick really doesn't like to play wolf, judging by repping out of 2 recent wolf games and lurking out a third one (in a hydra).

[DragonEater70]

Chuck E. Cheese's Spaghetti and Meatball Pizza

Why is this a thing?

[DragonEater70]

@Elements, this is not to help me sort you as much as it is to help me help Klick sort you, but:

What read do you think a generic town player this game should have on you? And what do you think about my hard townread of you, considering how I hard TR'd you in our last game (where you were quite different)?

A preference for answers longer than one word.

[DragonEater70]

Thanks!

[DragonEater70]

@Elements, any chance you can answer my questions?

Also why would you be voting Ydra?

[DragonEater70]

His reservations is he's scum, duh

[DragonEater70]

@Appearance, considering that right now the most viable colaition builds seem to be something along the lines of Dragon/VD/Klick + 2 out of {Elements, Ydrasse, Appearance}*, would you endeavor to read both Klick and VD and tell me what do you think about adding them to the coalition?

*This is based on me being in 5 coalitions (highest number), Elements being in 4 coalitions (second highest number, and the mutual towncoring and assumption of leadership between me, Klick and VD

Pedit: happy birthday!

[DragonEater70]

Huh, that worked.

[DragonEater70]

HEAL: klick, dragoneater, elements, appearance, deasvail

i have caught up but don’t have… a lot to say about the game, in specifics. i kind of feel like town is finding each other easily and wolves are having a hard time breaking into that sphere rather than trying to tear down someone. i guess it could mean they feel comfortable with the gamestate (which makes sense imo, a lot of the core of the coalition i just suggested seems common across multiple slots) and that the lack of hard tearing down from anywhere else is because town is on the outside of it.

i wanted to make a coalition without myself in it to see how confident i feel and the answer is ehhhh. maybe? i would probably sub out elements and/or appearance first.

Not sure I get this

If there is town outside the coalition wouldn't that mean there's scum inside?

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Klick, DeasVail
HEAL: Ydrasse

I think I have 5 town
Weakest of the 5 is probably Ydrasse atp?

Would mean 2 scum in {implosion, Appearance, T3, ssbm_Kyouko}

The question now is, are there any teams in that 4 that have been playing like they're about to lose if this coalition passes

I have been thinking about this...

I'd been thinking that implo, if scum, wasn't looking very concerned about an all-town coalition passing. Yes, he'd been discrediting me, but it feels a bit like a token effort. He doesn't even call me scum properly. If he were losing, I don't think he'd be playing like this.

Look at this post:

*snip*

If [DragonEater70's] suggested coalition gets passed and fails, I'll probably scrutinize him in more detail but right now it feels like I just don't have a ton of power in the game.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but it almost feels like he KNOWS my coalition will pass and fail, and he's setting up to be able to miseliminate me afterwards. I just don't think scum throws such weak shade when they see a clear trajectory of where the coalition is going, and it's going bad for them.

Now before this post I entertained the idea that implosion could be scum with Ydrasse, and that this is why he didn't try too hard to be in the coalition. But as of the last votecount before this post, my coalition was Dragon/Klick/DV/Appearance/Elements. AND, by the time 331 was made, DV had already made 299, where he seemed to be leaning toward a DKVAE coalition as well. So it seems out of place for scum!implo to go "oh well I guess I'd scrutinize DragonEater70 if his coalition fails" if he sees my coalition will most likely pass and he knows that it contains no scum.

I'm hurting Klick and DV specifically because I feel like they are the slots I scrutinized the least, and which have the highest partner equity with implo, out of the ones in my coalition:

Implosion is the player outside coalition most strongly fighting status quo
Implying implosion!scum is with someone outside coalition

If coalition does not pass, implosion's town equity goes up quite a bit

I feel this post could be partnered with implosion.

this gamestate is pretty demotivating for me. i'm pretty sure any seemingly-likely coalition right now is going to just fail and i'll be able to do things then but oy.

I think my ideal coalition right now would be me/elements/kyouko/ydrasse/(t3 or maybe klick)

The "maybe Klick" is like a tiny bit +partner distancing wise.

Also implo has no stated read on DV anywhere except the "hmm 69 is interesting but I don't know what I think about it". Which never lead to anything (I don't count saying "it could be a post scum made and could mean something about his partner" leading to anything).

So if implo is scum (and I admit I might be tunneled here), I think one of these is his partner.

@Everyone - thoughts?

[DragonEater70]

Also I forgot to say:

If implo is NOT scum, it's HIGHLY likely there's scum inside that coalition because I have a hard time seeing Kyo/T3 as the scum team, unless they just decided to give up this game.

[DragonEater70]

I'm having a hard time seeing

why

DV is town. I feel like I can see that he

looks

town, but I also see a lot of agreeing. Like "I thought that too" kind of posting, and I feel like that's how scum gets into the coalition the easiest.

I think that's how I'd do it at least

HEAL: Kyo

[DragonEater70]

Okay I'm really sorry if you are town, implo, because then I am SERIOUSLY confbiasing, but holy shit can someone tell me how 384 isn't like extremely political? Like "hmmm Dragon can definitely be scum but I'm actually starting to lean town, but don't be surprised if Ido scumread him" is the overall vibe.

But at the same time he does give an actually valid point

Aaaaaahhhh I'm driving myself up the wall

implo if you are town could you please do something that's genuinely toeny and not political at all, like voting for a coalition you'd ACTUALLY want right now? Or deciding who you think is scum in that coalition considering that you agree that the coalition probably fails if you are town?

This is NOT to say that I am suddenly townreading you, I am just trying to cover all bases here because something isn't working out for me here.

[DragonEater70]

I think by association implosion/DV is a reasonable scumteam
I can see how you read implosion play as setting up for failed coalition, but I don't know whether I'm convinced it's significantly more likely than him just being scum with T3 or Kyouko

I agree with the general logic that if implosion is town then the proposed coalition was probably a fail

But I also think you've presented plenty accurate evidence for myself!town and are paranoid about getting snowed
I'm willing to discuss the concept of DV-sxum but I don't think it's accurate

See, this is the kind of post that makes me want to just trust Klick, because it feels so logical and reasonable...

Except that I NEVER presented ANY evidence for Klick!Town this game (okay I did say at one point that he wasn't trying to be townread, but I also said at the same post that this could indicate he's deepwolfing and/or trying to pocket me). But also that isn't really "plenty of evidence" as Klick is putting it. My read is like 90% gut.

So, is there any actual evidence he's NOT deepwolfing? Um. Um. Not really I guess.

Also Klick, please explain why "you're willing to discuss the concept of DV scum but don't think it's accurate".

[DragonEater70]

Am I exaggerating my thoughts/feelings for dramatic effect? Yes. Definitely. It's fun.

It also helps in getting reactions, I think.

[DragonEater70]

Scum!implosion likes using valid points to push an agenda

Frankly I think town!implosion tries to push his own opinion here
I feel like implosion is trying to give little away

What agenda is he pushing?

[DragonEater70]

Klick, this might look extremely inconsequential but knowing my best reads often come from inconsequential looking things (for example, if implo is scum here I was able to identify it just from post 19) I'm going to have to ask anyway.

1. You never answered this. Please answer:

Confession: the other day I had the opportunity to eat pizza and I gave it up for a chicken wrap, because I was tired of pizza.

Yes, I'm a heretic. VOTE: Dragon


Also, HEAL: Klick in the hopes he's town again and we just lick this game in 20 pages.

ya

"ya" as in "ya Klick is town"?

2. Can you elaborate on this more?

HURT: DragonEater70

y?

To clarify I faked an SR of Klick ehen I had no read on him at all

Because I picked up on this and wanted to decide whether you were doing it because of that reason, or because you were scum unsure of how to interact with me not responding to you

Like specifically, how did hurting me help you solve me and what was your conclusion based on this.

[DragonEater70]

on a reread tho, it looks like u aren't really sring dragon so ignore my previous post.

No, he is sring me but doesn't really bother to change is vote, is what I got from him earlier.

That's why I asked that he vote for an actual coalition he'd support.

[DragonEater70]

also, i doubt scum!implo votes for any of the coalitions rn.

because he srs u presumably and thinks one of klick/dv is scum with u

Sure. What would town!implo do fypov?

as in he's preparing to sr u anyways

Wdym?

[DragonEater70]

Yeah okay

I see what you mean

I think the solve is just implo/Klick or implo/DV

If Klick feels strongly about my current coalition (me/you/elements/ydra/kyo) failing, or anyone else for that matter, they are welcome to explain what they don't like about it or propose a better coalition or whatever and I'll most likely be persuade-able, but for now I'm happy with my coalition.

[DragonEater70]

Yeah okay

I see what you mean

I think the solve is just implo/Klick or implo/DV

do u think that implo is distancing?
last time implo ended up bussing std and carrying the scumteam to a win.

It's not distancing per se, just the feeling I'd expect scum to like, TRY to win. The way Ydra voted doesn't make any sense if she's scum with implo, it's too risky (I don't really buy the argument that it's WIFOM).

And I don't really feel implo/Kyo/T3 played like a scumteam. So I feel the scum is inside the coalition, Klick and DV being the least scrutinized ones IMO.

[DragonEater70]

HEAL: DeasVail, Klick, DragonEater70, Elements, Appearance

I could consider replacing Appearance with T3

Any thoughts whatsoever on 361?

[DragonEater70]

So what do you make of it? Do you think we should just do the coalition anyway?

[DragonEater70]

I see

Why are implo/Kyo partnered?

[DragonEater70]

HEAL: DeasVail, Klick, DragonEater70, Elements, Appearance

[DragonEater70]

If this wins I am SO going to boast about solving the game on page 6.

[DragonEater70]

I believe that this is 3/5 votes for this coalition btw

I guess you could say I put the coalition at C-2.

[DragonEater70]

HURT: all

Don't want this hammered before I see what Elements thinks andDV's additional thoughts

[DragonEater70]

Okay that sells it for me

HURT: DV/Klick
HEAL: Ydrasse

I really want to heal Kyo. Can somebody explain why she's scum actually?

[DragonEater70]

Oh I forgot I wasn't healing them



I think it's clear what I meant to do

HURT: all
HEAL: Elements, Ydra, Dragon, Appearance

[DragonEater70]

Do you not TR our mystery alt?

[DragonEater70]

Mhmmmm

People are bullying me into staying faithful for my page 6 solve.

I can do it, just don't tell me later "Dragon is using the same rhetoric as Hero at Heart of 'this is the coalition and all of your opinions don't matter' and is putting his townreads above scrutiny", because I am CLEARLY not using such a rhetoric.

[DragonEater70]

Elements did you read my and Kyo's reasons for doubting Klick/DV?

[DragonEater70]

For the last time (hopefully),
HURT: all

Whoever I heal from now on will remain healed forever and ever.

[DragonEater70]

Kyouko you are pointing out the difference between me talking about something I already have an opinion on vs me talking about something that I've just thought about
I already have opinions on DV because I know DV well and I know he's likely to think about things in a 'I thought that too' sort of way
When I'm talking about other stuff I'm learning as I go

Which post of Kyo's is this in reference to?

[DragonEater70]

Elements, can you explain why Kyo isn't town here?

[DragonEater70]

Oh yeah I forgot that game has FINALLY ended and I'm actually allowed to say what I'm basing my metareads on Kyo now

I agree that she hasn't felt invested which is usually a scumtell of hers, but her recent posts feel are just a perfect mindmeld with what I am thinking and I just really want to mindmeld with them.

[DragonEater70]

I just want to TR them*

[DragonEater70]

What specifically from that PT can ypu see here?

[DragonEater70]

Blergh.

Klick

I need to mindmeld with you and then I can just

know

you are town.

I'm sure we mindmelded this game but the problem is that just like what you are accusing Kyoko of, all the mindmelds were you mindmelding

after

I already said something.

I'm gonna scour your ISO for mindmelds.


Also:

The thing is they're a mindmeld of thoughts

you had already posted in the thread

and theoretical Kyouko!scum has playing on those exact expressed thoughts as a clear route to not-losing

What posts are you talking about? I would think this refers to me scumreading DV but I posted 360 before 361 obviously.

This is correct. I thought there was another post where we mindmelded before I said anything but I can't find it right now. I'm gonna have to scour your ISO as well.

[DragonEater70]

Kyo just sounds extremely genuine here.


I 100% believe 474.

I also don't think she's in her scum meta.

[DragonEater70]

There's also the fact that she actually feels like she cares a lot more than DV feels like he cares, tbh. Like Klick you said you TR DV because he cares but literally every post Kyo made since 360 feels like she really cares and is genuinely trying to solve here and doesn't want to get it wrong. She could have easily just gone with Appearance but didn't.

Pedit: I get why you're annoyed. I think either of implo/T3 or implo/DV are more likely than implo/Kyo tbh.

[DragonEater70]

This is not a complete thought tbh, on my part

I hit preview with the intention of adding more but then I saw your posts and responded.

One sec.

[DragonEater70]

I'm having a hard time seeing why
DV is town. I feel like I can see that he looks
town, but I also see a lot of agreeing. Like "I thought that too" kind of posting, and I feel like that's how scum gets into the coalition the easiest.

This was just a WOW! moment for me because I was having the exact same thought, and Kyo wrote it out before I did.

Generally speaking, I think preflipping under the assumption anyone is scum is actually more fine in this setup than usual because we get sort of a "trial flip" in the coalition phase where partner theories can be put to the test. I think what you've posted here about scum!implo tracks if he is scum -

that likely he has a partner amongst {Dragon/Klick/DV/Appearance/Elements}, otherwise, scum!implo is giving up and hoping that town!{Dragon/Klick/DV/Appearance/Elements} are going to second-guess that coalition if he "blesses" it. At the same time, his suggested coalition is like, mostly opposite of yours so I don't think he's trying to get any of you to second-guess it, as his coalition is just going to reinforce the thinking that yours is pure. Like he knows he's mistrusted at this point I think.

It's interesting because this analysis is extra analysis on top of what I said (I said implo is setting up for a failed coalition because he knows it will fail). Here she's adding her own analysis which I have not written but which I was thinking similar thoughts to in my head.

I think I might just TR Klick's playstyle

I mean, I know I TR Klick's playstyle toa degree because when I read his scum game in Micro 1094, I was townreading all of his posts.


440 I actually don't particularly like:

Maybe it's just the first post discoloring the one that immediately follows it, but when I said "I TR Klick's playstyle" it's because his posting almost always looks like stream-of-consciousness. I just don't really feel like 364 flows the way Klick's posts normally do. I think it's that the line between being "agreeable" and repeatedly saying "I thought that too" isn't there for me. Maybe I'm remembering DV wrong and conflating "I agree" and "I thought that too", but the distinction is that if he agrees with something he isn't taking any credit for the thought. If he "thought that too" he's ingratiating himself.

Don't really agree with and feels somewhat forced or shoehorned.

I could see Klick-DV as a partnership, I could see DV individually scum, I can see Dragon's point that if implo is scum it would be with one of these two

Pairing DV and Klick is DEFINITELY not something I had written but it's still something I had mindmelded with Kyoko on. I had it at the back of my mind for a while.

I think I vibe with what Klick says when he's not talking about DV

More mindmeld.

And yeah, DV makes a good point in 367 - I think that's why Klick's response to it looked natural again when his recent posting about DV did not look right. Because DV does make a good point, so it's natural to point it out in 370:

Took me a while to parse this but I think I understand what Kyo means and I don't really disagree?


Now this post, just really feels towny to me:

I want to say Appearance is the heal but I don't see any

substantial

explanations for their reads in their ISO, and he's been questioned on it twice. He just gives low-content answers probably to help preserve the anonymity of the alt if he is town here.

I like 408:

ngl i'm starting to worry that scum's plan is not to get into a coalition but to prevent us from forming one.

But I'm not convinced this isn't something scum who is doing this exact thing can't post.

That said, looking at his actions in heals/hurts leading up to 408, it does seem like he's not doing that thing. As in, he

is trying

to form a coalition before deadline.

@Appearance, can you talk me through the reasoning for the changes in your coalition from 342/343/382?

I think the fact that Kyo is leaning on an Appearance heal but actually questioning it, feels organic. She sort of SR's him but then shoots down her own SR in the same post and while this

could

be faked, to me it reads like town really wanting to be right and consider all possibilities, and yes also making sure to show her thought process.

[DragonEater70]

From my perspective we've already mindmelded several times and I'm fairly annoyed that we've gone from likely winning to the current position off of you getting antsy

This point is going to look really really funny if you are town and DV is scum and then we win by swapping you and DV for Kyo and Ydra.

It would look even funnier if all four of you are town and the scumteam is exactly T3/implo but idk if that's the case.

[DragonEater70]

From my perspective we've already mindmelded several times and I'm fairly annoyed that we've gone from likely winning to the current position off of you getting antsy

This point is going to look really really funny if you are town and DV is scum and then we win by swapping you and DV for Kyo and Ydra.

It would look even funnier if all four of you are town and the scumteam is exactly T3/implo but idk if that's the case.

i mean, what has t3 done this whole phase?
tbh i'm all for you including ydra and kyo in the coalition.

but at this point, it's very likely t3 is either scum or dead weight.

so, it would not surprise me if scum is exactly t3/implo.

????

I'm probably misreading this but are you saying you think it's implo/T3 simply because T3 is either scum or dead weight, and you arbitrarily decided he's scum rather than dead weight?

[DragonEater70]

It's sort of unclear to me what the actual viable coalitions are right now. I'd be fine with something with Klick but without DV but to Dragon it feels like they're a package deal

Considering I am not even voting and am generally waiting to be persuaded rather than doing the persuasion, I'd appreciate if you ignore what I thonk and just nom the coalition you want.

[DragonEater70]

Alright Klick

I have an idea

You said your hard PoE is Kyo/T3/implo

What do you say about a coal of dragon/app/el/dv/ydra?

Then I won't have the paranoia about you and I am even going to as far as to say I will town lock you if it fails, if it's any consolation.

Pedit: no Klick is just too towny I can't resist having him in the coalition

[DragonEater70]

HEAL: klick, dragoneater, elements, appearance, deasvail

Lol

Why lol? That's what I was pushing on pages 6-14

[DragonEater70]

Okay

Klick I don't want a reason to think you are town. Can you give me a reason why I should just have faith in our coalition (including DV)?

[DragonEater70]

HEAL: Elements, Klick, Ydrasse, Dragon, Appearance

Split on whether I'd prefer Appearance or Deasvail in a void right now. I'd definitely vote for this with Appearance->Deasvail. If the version without Ydrasse is the prevailing preference then eh w/e probably

Hmmmm explain

[DragonEater70]

Alright Klick

I have an idea

You said your hard PoE is Kyo/T3/implo

What do you say about a coal of dragon/app/el/dv/ydra?

Then I won't have the paranoia about you and I am even going to as far as to say I will town lock you if it fails, if it's any consolation.

Pedit: no Klick is just too towny I can't resist having him in the coalition

I'd accept it though obviously I'd prefer being in it myself
What's your current thoughts on Ydrasse

Can you vote for it?

My thoughts on Ydra are "meh I don't think she'd post the vote you just quoted last page as scum"

[DragonEater70]

Hmmmm explain

i mean my ideal coalition would be that - appearance + me but that's clearly not viable and it's probably not a good idea anyway because if it failed i'd be immediately limmed.

i don't really know what else there is to explain. I have very mixed feelings on both of kyouko and T3 (in T3's case i think his posting has been kind of town but also there's just not enough of it/not enough content in it, i think i've explained kyouko) and i think excluding the three of us is a perfectly fine starting point given that people are suspicious of the 3 of us as possible teams and those teams become impossible if the coalition fails. I think out of the other 6, dv/appearance are broadly the least townish

Why do you TR me?

[DragonEater70]

i think if i were to pick my in this exact moment most likely coalition to pass it'd be me/klick/ydrasse/elements/(one of dragon or kyouko). or maybe both of dragon and kyouko but minus ydrasse. not sure, i'm tired and am going to sleep

How does this track with your last post

[DragonEater70]

Actually nvm I get it

[DragonEater70]

R u fine with me hammering a coalition without you?

Like I still prefer to have you inside over Klick or DV but like. Idk if people are gonna change over.

[DragonEater70]

It might be an appropriate time to pull out my l33t decision-making theory if no one feels super confident

Please

[DragonEater70]

Relevant reading: viewtopic.php?t=90488

There are times when it's in town's best interest to choose to abandon the majority vote - even abandon voting according to their own reads - in the interest of increasing the chances of them getting scum lims through.

In the above thread I discuss this in terms of when town is in a losing situation, but I think it also applies generally and would probably help here

The basic theory is that:

decisions made by 100% town (or higher-probability town) are more likely to be accurate than decisions made by a group of players that is not 100% town (or lower-probability town).

Applied to this situation: most of us seem to agree that DragonEater is just town; furthermore, I think DragonEater's actual decision-making on this decision is sufficiently unpredictable that taking this course of action isn't obviously biased in any particular direction. What I propose is that we delegate the coalition decision to specifically DragonEater, and sheep it disregarding personal reads. The idea being that DragonEater is more likely to hit 5-town on his own than through the influence of the rest of us in this gamestate.

Hey I remember reading this article and thinking it was pretty cool

[DragonEater70]

Also I was about to call it an early night right now but then remembered there was a deadline.

[DragonEater70]

Can you like let me know in the next 20 minutes if we're sheeping me or not? Because if not I'm just gonna go to sleep and count on somebody else to hammer as needed.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry that probably came out as entitled, but the truth is I'm just tired and want to sleep rn.

[DragonEater70]

Yeah it is a bit close

Kyo will you hammer the coalition that's currently at C-1 if nobody else shows up in time?

[DragonEater70]

Wait Klick please re-vote.

[DragonEater70]

See the problem is everyone except implo and T3 is really towny

And I am kinda refusing to believe the game is just this easy, though maybe it really is this easy.

It's funny Klick that I feel if Bella was in your slot I would have had so much easier time being confident in my town read of your slot. I mean it's funny because I was thinking about her without making the connection in my mind.

[DragonEater70]

Ugh

I wanna sleep

Should I just hammer? Assuming Klick re-votes.

[DragonEater70]

tbh i'm scared of scum distancing in this setup.

this was actually something I was thinking too.

Was it klick/dragoneater that pinged you as a potential distance as well, or more of a general fear?

Distancing? DragonEater ended our earlier exchange with a townread on me, and my stated read on DragonEater is ambiguous atm. I don't see how you come out of it thinking it looks like distancing.

Why did you make this post Klick

Wow I sound like Dannflor. At least I think I do.

[DragonEater70]

Town

Kyouko
Elements
Ydrasse
T3
Klick
Appearance
Dragon
Implosion

Scum

^this is a rough indication of my reads right now

I want to understand what your thoughts are about Dragon atm.

See this is a classically town!Klick post, but also I could see it as partnered with DV

HEAL: Klick
HEAL: Ydrasse
HEAL: DeasVail
HEAL: DragonEater70

@ the three of you: I'm less interested in discussing everyone else, and more interested in discussing why this group is pure. We can work out an ideal fifth shortly, but I want to iron out confidence in this as a group first. I feel not certain, but fairly confident that this group is pure, and I think discussing the details of that is the best use of our thread space.

(but not right now because I'm getting ready for work)

But this Klick doing his own thing rather than trying to appeal to his town reads, which is towny.

btw, i just realised my browser messes up the font that prism uses for the vcs

Just checking: Is the latest VC readable for everyone?

Most mobile browsers render a different font than the one I use, which is fine by me, but if the VC is mangled or difficult to parse, let me know and I'll switch it up.

It’s been fine for me!

Also miscellaneous thoughts:

Klick moved up in my reads a bit because of him saying that he’d been ambiguous about his read on Dragon, at a time when I think he had only really expressed a scumread there. I think this is more likely from town because scum are more likely to be hyper-aware of the “positions” they are taking on people while town are more likely to believe that because they

felt

ambiguous about someone it would come across in their posts.

On implosion, there are specific ways in which I feel he has tried to look town, but I want to give implosion a chance to be able to properly engage with the game (and also see whether the things concerning me continue) before going all in on that.

When I go through my townreads (which I have too many of, I know), the one that least holds up to scrutiny at the moment is T3. I was doubting Appearance for a while but looking back I feel like the backtracking by saying that maybe Klick/Dragon didn’t look like distancing was more likely consistent with townie lack of confidence. Still not sure though, because the T3 read in particular doesn’t feel proactive, as if they’re taking the fact that T3 will be in the coalition as a given and not questioning it, but again… could be town struggling with confidence in their reads.

Also these reads don't feel fake

@implosion: Then what do you think of my post which was basically the same thing?

Your post is rhetorically very different and also I think your group has a much higher chance of being all town

I am confused, am I missing something?

This is actually town, right? DV was confused like me because like me he wasn't informed of people's alignments while reading this.

Conflict isn't the friction that causes readable gamestates
Genuine engagement is

That's what I feel is lacking

I'll answer what you want though:

Feel pretty okay on you and VD, I would like you to sell me on Ydra though.

Like I think in a vacuum her posting is towny, BUT I

think

for her specifically it's NAI? I haven't ever played with her but I read a scum game and a town game of hers and couldn't really tell the difference.

Hey implosion and I have started the weird pseudo-conflict dance, give it time

I feel it'd be kinda weird to post this about your scum partner

Pedit: okay I believe you Klick

[DragonEater70]

Meh

If I had another full day or two I might have gone somewhere different but I kinda want to hammer

BUT

Maybe let's do this instead:

Kyo/app/klick/ydra/dragon?

[DragonEater70]

Klick answer yes/no

If no I hammer if yes let's do it

[DragonEater70]

Meh

If I had another full day or two I might have gone somewhere different but I kinda want to hammer

BUT

Maybe let's do this instead:

Kyo/app/klick/ydra/dragon?

HURT: all

Awaiting your answer

[DragonEater70]

Unfortunate






HURT: all
HEAL: Ydra/Dragon/Klick/Appearance

Um

Elements, Kyo, or DV?

I'm actually going to throw a die here

Okay it landed on Elements

HEAL: Elements

Pedit: yes

[DragonEater70]

HURT: Elements
HEAL: Kyo

Okay seriously I need to sleep and if this fails then it fails

It's just a game

Goodnight

Feel free to either sheep this or tell Kyo to hammer the other one. Klick is in charge.

[DragonEater70]

Good morning

I have insomnia so I'm awake.

Anyway I feel really blegh about how it seems like I was made to bear the full brunt of picking a coalition and now the responsibility lies just on me.

The only good thing about the situation is the really funny flavor Prism made. Thanks Prism.

[DragonEater70]

I kinda wanna town read gob for his really awful reads but the thing is he has awful reads as both alignments so I dunno

Anyway back to the actual point - I really wanna trust Klick because he risked not being in the coalition and because I somewhat doubt he would have needed to do the whole "sheep dragon" gambit as scum knowing that I didn't really trust him. On the other hand the gambit probably would have been amazing in a Klick/DV world.

Same thing -ish about Ydra, I don't really get why scum her would vote a coalition like that though obviously there is the (tiny) possibility of being scum with Klick or DV sooo

Idk

At least I know for sure the team isn't DV/implo now.

[DragonEater70]

Actually I want to vote someone but I first want to see more people's reactions so not voting yet.

[DragonEater70]

I kinda wanna town read gob for his really awful reads but the thing is he has awful reads as both alignments so I dunno

This guy clearly wolfing. Look at this fence sit

You also said I was clearly wolfing in Mini 2317 and I was town

So with respect, your opinion on me sucks.

[DragonEater70]

I kinda wanna town read gob for his really awful reads but the thing is he has awful reads as both alignments so I dunno

Anyway back to the actual point - I really wanna trust Klick because he risked not being in the coalition and because I somewhat doubt he would have needed to do the whole "sheep dragon" gambit as scum knowing that I didn't really trust him. On the other hand the gambit probably would have been amazing in a Klick/DV world.

Same thing -ish about Ydra, I don't really get why scum her would vote a coalition like that though obviously there is the (tiny) possibility of being scum with Klick or DV sooo

Idk

At least I know for sure the team isn't DV/implo now.

What do you mean "vote a coalition

like that

" with Ydra?

Ydra voted a coalition that didn't include her and I thought that was pretty clearing, though of course if she was scum with Klick or something it wouldn't be really clearing. Idk I'm still thinking in implosion = scum terms.

[DragonEater70]

Alright game solved for realsies

HEAL: Klick, Appearance, Dragon, Elements, DeasVail

Now I just lurk until DV and Klick figure out this is the correct solve and then we just convince two others.

The kind of rhetoric of this post is something I feel like I could write an essay about. In the last coalition game I played, I was scum and there was a player (Hero at Heart) who was repeatedly giving similar rhetoric of surety about their coalition (nb: both scum were in it). I think d1 in that game was somewhat easy for me to navigate probably in large part due to that kind of rhetoric, where certain people (myself included) were almost viewed as above scrutiny in a way that felt like it radiated out from Hero's reads. Granted, Hero actually did change his reads plenty of times iirc, but ultimately the town deferred to it with the only real objection coming from me (because i softly wanted my scumbuddy off the coalition).

In this case, I think this coalition is massively likely to have scum on it somewhere. And I don't think DragonEater has the same kind of rhetorical sway that Hero did in that game. But it really makes me not like the direction that this day is going right now.

It’s weird to me that you’d use the amount of time since we last played together to question the reliability of my read on you and then make an unsolicited comment on my scumplay (particularly since 5-10 years ago I was probably better known for strong town play than strong scum play).

The comment on scumplay is more a continuation of 155 than it is of 156

I should note that Hero at Heart is an alt of Dragon

That's really rude of you to do.

[DragonEater70]

And I am dead serious about that.

[DragonEater70]

DE reminds me a lot of how I used to play scum back in like 2021-ish

It feels like he's spending the whole game flailing around and trying to get townread, if that makes sense??

I quite liked DV's reasoning for scumreading implosion earlier in the game

Mate

You aren't even trying to advance the game and you are saying I'm flailing

[DragonEater70]

I'm actually really pissed off that you did that

Like there's a reason it's a secret alt

[DragonEater70]

Gonna chill out now

[DragonEater70]

tho u aren't the only one who has had their alts outed before.

I apologize if I outed you, I just threw a random guess.

[DragonEater70]

DE reminds me a lot of how I used to play scum back in like 2021-ish

It feels like he's spending the whole game flailing around and trying to get townread, if that makes sense??

It makes sense to me, but right now at least, I think there are enough things that go beyond what would be necessary for Dragon as scum to look town (e.g. the extent of paranoia about me +/- Klick, the efforts to derail a coalition that would have been perfectly fine for him as scum).

I think Kyouko is the most likely scum in the 5, because there was clear effort to change the status quo and I don't think her approach to the post-coalition phase so far is particularly town, nor does it feel like a natural continuation of her coalition phase opinions/play.

I kinda agree

I'll be miffed if my page 6 coalition was right and we only failed because I was given too much power and was too paranoid.

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Kyo

Voting app sucks.

[DragonEater70]

I wish DV were in instead of Klick tbh, would make this day a lot easier.

Does this give away that kyouko knew the coalition was going to fail anyway?

How does kyo know that the coalition still would have failed with me in it instead of Klick?

I know that klick is a consensus townread, but this still reveals a sort of thought process that I think comes from an informed perspective rather than uninformed

tbh I kinda wish I'd included Elements over Klick so that if it'd failed I could at least rule out you being paired with Klick, Klick being paired with implo, etc.

Anyway hopefully Kyo flips scum and I can rule these out anyway.

[DragonEater70]

implosion: "I am not going to belabor the alt thing"

*immediately proceeds to belabor it*

Additionally, no you are wrong. Yes I did have an additional advantage of reading you this game. Part of my gut ping on you being scum was that your entrance was incredibly similar to the last game. Your gameplay has been different but the circumstances have also been different. I am calling you out for being in your scum meta, which includes trying to be thoughtful and neutral in your approach. Amd the fact that I am in my town game, despite nobody here having that meta so I could get towncred for me, should make you locktown me unless you think I would just imitate meta that doesn't exist as scum. The talk about how it's scummy to think you are scum is extremely disingenuous.

VOTE: implo

Wanted to do this since page 2.

[DragonEater70]

Actually

I should probably read the whole post before I vote

UNVOTE:

[DragonEater70]

dragon, don't u think implo would realise that he'd be obvscum if he stuck to the same playstyle for two coalition games in a row?
p-edit:

implosion: "I am not going to belabor the alt thing"

*immediately proceeds to belabor it*

Additionally, no you are wrong. Yes I did have an additional advantage of reading you this game. Part of my gut ping on you being scum was that your entrance was incredibly similar to the last game. Your gameplay has been different but the circumstances have also been different. I am calling you out for being in your scum meta, which includes trying to be thoughtful and neutral in your approach. Amd the fact that I am in my town game, despite nobody here having that meta so I could get towncred for me, should make you locktown me unless you think I would just imitate meta that doesn't exist as scum. The talk about how it's scummy to think you are scum is extremely disingenuous.

VOTE: implo

Wanted to do this since page 2.

I think implo has not been actively trying to play the game the same way. BUT I think he's in his scum meta.

I am going to go read his play in Toriel's game to compare though.

[DragonEater70]

Okay I am going to ask all of you kindly and especially implosion not to bring the alt thing into the conversation. It will not help you solve me in any way considering I'm already transparently town here and I was also transparently town there.

And I will read the Toriel game.

[DragonEater70]

gob is very clearly town here because he's gasping at straws to scumread me.

And while for 95% of players that's scum indicative, gob is one of the like two players where it's very town indicative to do that

[DragonEater70]

Moving on

implo I know you said you shouldn't engage with me but that's a problem because if we decide to elim inside the coalition and I somehow don't die tonight, you will have to engage with me.

I know i am being frustrating to you, but having the coalition failed means I'm willing to reevaluate. And I am capable of re-evaluating reads as demonstrated by the game I linked earlier where I was mega tunneled on Black but then re-evaluated.

Anyway I feel your frustration at me + your overall mode of engagement since coalition failed hasn't been overly scummy, BUT I did check your Toriel's Patience game and I feel your posting style os very different there. That's not to say you do not have nuanced takes in that game, but your takes this game DO feel calculated mostly.

HOWEVER the point that I am trying to make here is that while I am not townteading you, you are not lockscum for me and I would like to know what do you think of the idea of Klick as scum.

[DragonEater70]

I still kind of like Ydrasse's early play toward me, coming off of Toriel's patience it feels like the right amount of skepticism toward scumreads of me for the right reasons. I also like her early self-analysis. 354 also feels particularly like a town post, i think it's awkward for scum out of nowhere to either put up a 5-town coalition or put up a coalition with their scumbuddy on it. Possibly less so if she's scum with elements or appearance since she said they'd be the first to go off the list in case she got added (which part of me thinks would be a bit conspicuous but from my recent experience playing scum in this setup you do feel like you have to be a bit conspicuous in that way sometimes. Or at least i did). 540 gives me mixed feelings as sort of the follow up to that post in that it is kind of an easy thing to do as scum to throw up your hands in the air, give a couple strong townreads, and then prepare for pretty much any form of the coalition failing. The coalition was 1 vote from passing so maybe this post is like, a wriggle as scum to try to get out of an all-town coalition she'd committed to without having to unvote it? the third paragraph in the post seems really hard to make in that case though so probably if she's scum there was already scum in that coalition.

I think the main thing I probably should be looking for in Ydrasse's play is a specific form of motivation/caring that she had in spades in Toriel's patience where it was like, abundantly clear that even though she was being thoroughly beaten down by the gamestate she still cared about the game. And she hasn't been beaten down by the gamestate in this game but she has been a little out of it and 540 gives me some worries on that front because making a big post like that and then doing nothing post coalition yet is kind of yikes in that department, like it would make sense as scum who is trying to wait a bit to see where the cards fall + who is running out of that kind of motivation to muster consistently.

This is some solid analysis but I feel the conclusion is missing here.

[DragonEater70]

But I could see Ydra scum.

[DragonEater70]

honestly the thought of actually looking closely at Appearance's ISO gives me stomach pain because I have no idea how to interpret anything he says as alignment-indicative.

i think that everybody seems to think that (minus maybe dragon)

Yeah I tend to have a very different approach to reading "LHF" / low content slots than most people.

[DragonEater70]

Interesting

Is DV just a leftover from pre-coalition or have you given him additional thought?

[DragonEater70]

Gahhhh

I wish I either had both or neither of Klick/DV in the coal.

[DragonEater70]

Yes that's not my point

[DragonEater70]

Klick do you have any scumtells?

[DragonEater70]

Right

I am mainly annoyed with the fact that I put Klick in charge and he decided to sheep me over sheeping himself despite the fact that I had made a very clearly hurried choice that I wasn't even sure of.

Another thing I am wary of is the fact that Klick's reads have been aligning with mine

too

well.

But I think I can put this aside and just trust in tha power of tha mindmeld for now. And I do think Klick sheeping me does align with his town meta for instance.

So with that, let's try something here.

VOTE: Kyo

[DragonEater70]

Maybe I'm crazy but some of his reasoning for townreading people is like, word-for-word stuff that I used to say when I was scum.

So what?

Are you imying I can't have these thoughts?

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Kyo

I'm good with this

VOTE: Dragon

Nah, I actually really dislike his above post.

Well this looks towny.

Dragon, why vote Kyouko?

Disagree on T3. Voting and changing vote is pretty standard for scum.

I'm voting Kyo because I had the weakest TR on her before the coalition locked in, and also because voting Appearance reeks of "let's just vote an LHF today" in a scummy way.

[DragonEater70]

gob is very clearly town here because he's gasping at straws to scumread me.

And while for 95% of players that's scum indicative, gob is one of the like two players where it's very town indicative to do that

Smells like TMI to me. Town dragon wouldnt have the confidence to TR me here. You are trying to TR me to get me off your back.

Well i will leave you be for now. Ill just get you eliminated some other time when more heat is against you. That will come in time because you are wolfing and soon others will see. I am not gonna sit and argue for something so obvious.

How is it TMI? I literally townread you in our last game together for most of D3 + D4, despite ypu constantly pushing me. I base a VERY large amount of my read on a person on past experience with them.

[DragonEater70]

You're voting me because I was your weakest TR. You remember my weakest TR don't you?

I guess I do

Meh

Who do you think is scum if it's not Appearance (and/or who do you think is App's partner)?

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Dunnstral

His entrance is not exactly impressive and I feel like Ydrasse was scum. I feel like the aspects of her posting that people were saying she'd have trouble faking as scum are actually things she definitely can fake over the course of her being in this game

T3 yfrasse seem good. implo will need to go some point soon. maybr dunn too

Do you realize Dunn replaced Ydrasse?

I get that you disagree with the reasons people have called Ydrasse town, but why was she scum, specifically?

UNVOTE:
Not sure this POE is as clear cut as I thought

What do you mean by this?

DV asking my questions

[DragonEater70]

Okay. If Dunn replaced Ydrasse ill just have that slot as null for now. I wasnt really convinced on Ydrasse anyway it was just a day 1 read.

implo, or someone else. I am bad at convincing people through words, but my reads are good. I am confident implo and dragon are scummy. Could be wrong on one of them, highly unlikely im wrong twice.

Can someone else case Dragon for me? I feel like my read comes down to his meta. Which isnt a good way to convince others. So someone needs to take my read and run with it.

Or you could realize everyone else TRs me and case implo instead.

[DragonEater70]

I am mainly annoyed with the fact that I put Klick in charge and he decided to sheep me over sheeping himself despite the fact that I had made a very clearly hurried choice that I wasn't even sure of.

Another thing I am wary of is the fact that Klick's reads have been aligning with mine too well.

But I think I can put this aside and just trust in tha power of tha mindmeld for now. And I do think Klick sheeping me does align with his town meta for instance.

Like sorry but wtf is this

?

[DragonEater70]

gob is very clearly town here because he's gasping at straws to scumread me.

And while for 95% of players that's scum indicative, gob is one of the like two players where it's very town indicative to do that

Smells like TMI to me. Town dragon wouldnt have the confidence to TR me here. You are trying to TR me to get me off your back.

I'd actually agree with this too - in Secrets of the Anukat Topaz, gob made up some reachy and frankly absurd reasons to scumread people. Obviously Dragon was not in that game, but I find it a little strange that he wouldn't due at least a little bit of due dilligence to confirm his subjective meta experience with gob.

I know gob has reachy reads as scum

I think his reads are even worse as town though, and right now his reads are plain horrible.

I don't think scum!gob can stop himself from TMI'ing, which I haven't seen this game for instance.

[DragonEater70]

Some of the issues I had with him being performative were resolved when I looked at his ISO in this towngame, but by and large he seemed far more measured and balanced in this game and less powerwolfy.

viewtopic.php?t=91582&user_select%5B%5D=36973

How am I powerwolfy when I am not even pushing implo right now who in a wolf!me world is most likely a town lhf. C'mon you can do better shade than that.

[DragonEater70]

Tbh a lot of people came in and started talking like they knew everything and it made me want to do something with my time other than look at the thread

I have the same thought

I really don't want to look at this game right now, giving it bare minimum.

I also think it's disgusting that T3 didn't voice a single scumread on me until coalition failed and is now pushong me like that. If he really thought that way he could have pushed me earlier.

[DragonEater70]

If anyone believes in Dragon!scum and wants anyone to take Dragon!scum seriously they're going to need to present their reasoning pretty firmly to badge the current thread opinion

My reads currently have me at 2 of {Dunn, kyouko, T3}. Ydrasse/T3 feels really strange to me so I'm inclined to vote Kyouko. It'd make sense with the push at the end of D1.

If people want to advocate elsewhere they're going to need to sell it.

Okay I am just going to lock Klick as town because I have the same reads.

[DragonEater70]

Like if putting a half-hearted vote on a slot that I TR the least qualifies as powerwolfing, T3, then I guess I powerwolf in virtually every town game I play.

[DragonEater70]

Apologies for the low level of posting this phase, I am kinda burned out from Mafia right now and I also don't feel I have anything meaningful to add.

[DragonEater70]

mmm 164 is a pretty good post if dragon is scum

What does this even mean

[DragonEater70]

Like does town Dragon really respond this aggressively

Yes.