open 894: near vanilla (game over)

[shaddowez]

VOTE: Skygazer

Caught in a lie already, game solved

[shaddowez]

Hello All, game looked way off staring mid week. But great it’s kicked off.

VOTE: Dannflor

Do you have a reason for this vote, or a belief that the game is still in RVS?

[shaddowez]

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

[shaddowez]

Hello All, game looked way off staring mid week. But great it’s kicked off.

VOTE: Dannflor

Do you have a reason for this vote, or a belief that the game is still in RVS?

Still RVS for me, but I’m considering making Dannflor a policy vote each game we are in….


Why do you ask?

There's less than 3 pages to read through, but there's been some non-RVS like interactions. I was curious if you had read and decided to still RVS, or if you had seen something to make a legit vote against Dann.

[shaddowez]

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

I don't want to answer for Aisa but I think that because my statement in 15 was intended to play on Bella's statement in 13, my 15 could appear to be more abrasive, in a sense.

Yes, this basically. T3's post pinged me because 1. he was playing on Bella's post, which I thought could be a way to try to insert himself into the conversation as scum, 2. he came off as kinda serious and antagonistic while doing so, which again I thought could be scum-indicative

I saw this differently - while yes, I could see it being antagonistic looking, scum could have played off it more subtly, or just ignored it at all. Being willing to poke at something and see reactions comes out as townier to me.

Jupiter's 64 feels very townie, good vibes there.

What about this post feels townie to you? None of the discussion points seem to provide any useful information, and the explanations of self-consciousness almost feel like they're WKing Bella here (as does their random interjection defending Bella into the OutWorldER/Aisa posts).

I'm getting a TR on OutWorldER based on 93 and the interactions leading up to it.

That said, getting a ping here:
VOTE: Jupiter

It feel like they saw

some

reason to vote T3 and have been hanging on to it. 70 sounds like they're starting to form a reason to back out of their vote, without having to look anywhere else just yet.

[shaddowez]

One thing about Kurtapika's post is that as of this comment:

I'm mainly in agreement with shaddowez on Aisa, no comment on the others for now.

The only thing shaddowez had said about me was this:

Aisa

Why is T3's 15 bad vs no comment on Bella's 13?

And ehhh interesting that Kurtapika thought that was something worth voicing agreement with?

VOTE: Kurtapika
I don't completely dislike this wagon and I have nowhere better to put my vote, so

I hadn't searched my name in this thread yet and missed this on my readthrough - good catch, and something I want to look more into.

...snip....
OutworldER: all he's done so far is ask questions. Which is great! But I don't feel like it's enough to give someone a townread. I'd like to see how his reads evolve.

I had a similar feel for him...he mentions "vibes" for his reads so far, which isn't super helpful for convincing the rest of us why to/not to vote for somebody.

Nono in 94, I don’t see what you see with regard to T3. In fact its seems like a hurried list of things to do with no substance, why?

I kinda think Titus is a little towny so far? I've definitely not read her wrong before

How do you get Titus as town on so little interaction? Even if you have a read on their meta?

From my understanding, that little interaction

is

the reason for the meta based town read.

[shaddowez]

I agree with OWER's read on Jupiter in 86 and I like how inquisitive and engaged OWER feels

Jupiter and Project are both pretty towny too.

- JupiterXV also has that one very towny post, but my estimate of their towniness goes down if they have mafia experience from other places

@Black

and

@Dann

- What about Jupiter is it you're seeing that's making you TR him?

@Aisa

- are you talking about 69? Also, same question as above with the additional thought of does anything in 159 sway you one way or the other?

[shaddowez]

why I felt Jupiter's post was townie and it was just, they seemed invested in a way where they were spewing things off the top of their head, even if it wasn't super useful.

1) Do you feel this is something that scum can't/wouldn't do?
2) Do you feel it's townier or scummier to wallpost with not-useful information?

Jupiter's posts I would view as insubstantial but in more of a town playing devil's-advocate way than anything, personally, as that's what they've seemed to be doing so far in terms of providing perspectives to the existing arguments,

I'm a little more comfortable with this phrasing of it, but I don't read it as purely perspective - there's too many references to Bella's background/posting that make it feel more like they're trying to defend why

she

did it that way, not why they would have.

[shaddowez]

OK i gotta go now. bye gang i got some more stuff but business calls! see ya

What more did you have from stuff up to this point? Future posts only respond to posts after yours, not any thoughts prior to that.

[shaddowez]

I also don’t like 63. I don’t like that he answered for Asia, whilst saying not to answer for her. Asia has been prodding slightly at T3 and I’m conscious whether answering for her was almost doing her a favour to get her off his back. Almost a ‘look im on your side’.

This read could be completely off, but I’d be curious to know peoples thoughts.

I'm not sure your reasoning here is on point, since that could have gone a completely different way if Aisa did have a different answer.

[shaddowez]

SHADOWEZ

why are you ignoring the t3 wagon huh

Because he's my scumbuddy and I'm not bussing, obvs

[shaddowez]

I do feel it's riskier for scum to do that stream of consciousness thing, as there's more to point back to later and say 'but you said...'

Yep

I agree with this, to an extent. I feel that scum are more likely to be cognizant of consistency across their posts so that people can't do that. However, that said I don't feel that inconsistency is necessarily AI since it's pretty easily fakeable. I also think that stream of consciousness regarding reads or arguments may fall into this, but if it's rambling that's likely not to ever be come back to I'm not sure how much the idea of consistency matters.

[shaddowez]

SHADOWEZ

why are you ignoring the t3 wagon huh

Because he's my scumbuddy and I'm not bussing, obvs

As a real answer, I don't see this as a worthwhile wagon. My primary SR right now is the first vote and it doesn't feel like a bus, so it'd be a pretty big swing for me to switch those reads right now. The second vote is an RVS vote from somebody with 2 posts. I do have a slight TR on both you and Aisa right now, but that's not enough for me to hop on just yet.

[shaddowez]

@Bella

- why your concern on Aisa?

[shaddowez]

Catching up, going to try and do a few ISOs as well. I know I had a few quoted posts too, so will look for them and address them if needed.

[shaddowez]

never did i express a scumread on t3 in the posts they're claiming i do

Where do I say you expressed a scumread? In 119 I mention that it feels like you found a reason to vote him, but part of your SR on me is based on explicit wording that didn't happen.

[shaddowez]

I'm not saying don't vote her Jupiter but of your two scum reads I view shaddowez less favorably personally

You can be wrong in two consecutive games, it's fine

[shaddowez]

I feel comfortable slotting Kurtapika as town for now

PoE, or reason?

[shaddowez]

To add to this I think fading low information slots is probably a lot worse than someone who's flip could give us some insight into the rest of the playerlist

Following up on the above, Kurtapika is recommending a policy lim on low info players in 335, so why the TR and no questioning of this play if you don't like it?

[shaddowez]

Everyone, please try to use proper grammar. It's very hard to understand posts that don't have it.

+ TP for this

[shaddowez]

To add to this I think fading low information slots is probably a lot worse than someone who's flip could give us some insight into the rest of the playerlist

Following up on the above, Kurtapika is recommending a policy lim on low info players in 335, so why the TR and no questioning of this play if you don't like it?

i didn't really read it like a policy lim, more like a PoE?

Weird defense since this was directed at Black.

Regardless, PoE means process of elimination. That would mean that the decision to eliminate one of the group of people is because out of everyone else those are the ones they feel likely to be scum. This post specifically opposes that line of reasoning:

The move at this point I'd think would be best lim the lowest posters over anything, I don't have a strong sr personally and I imagine it would be conducive to getting an overall better idea of who's solidly town when more of the table is producing content later down the line. Plus it'd root out whether we're dealing with scum on one of them or if and where we're going to be narrowing down existing townish reads.

[shaddowez]

I think I sounded like more of a jerk than I intended with the phrasing of that post

[shaddowez]

Why do you think scum would say that out loud like that? Or do you just think he was trying to be open/honest and slipped?

The latter. Lying is a very mentally strenuous task, so telling a half-truth is easier than making up a reason as to why he's ignoring the T3 wagon. I think this is further supported by the fact that shaddowez has so far declined to actually give a read of T3. Every reason he gave for it "not being a worthwhile wagon" has to do with the people who are on the wagon. It reads like scum trying to avoid faking a read.

i find i agree with this actually
while we're on the topic of voting/wagons:
shadow, why did you initially vote me? can you explain that? just curious.

I knew I saw this post and have been trying to find it.

While you're claiming your initial post was RVS, in that same post you voted T3 you also asked him about his SR, which to me felt as if you were looking to make a case from the get go. Your responses to T3 in 70 were very nonchalant, and felt as if you didn't really care about his answers.

[shaddowez]

all the reasons people are townreading me AND scumreading me for just come down to my personality and how i present myself

In a text game that's based on reading into how and what is said? Absolutely

[shaddowez]

Had less time than I hoped today - ISO's and reads list tomorrow.

[shaddowez]

So because of work meetings and an unexpected medical appointment, I'm not going to get through everything today, but here's some of what I have so far:

Jupiter is doing nothing whatsoever to make himself look less like scum FMPOV. The only reason to manufacture a read on someone is if you already know their alignment. If he's town, there's no good defense for not reading a post and claiming it's AI (either way), then digging his heels in and finally saying he lied about reading it doesn't help at all. His vote on me and his reason for trying to get people to vote me also feels very OMGUSy, as it's "his push on

me

sucks, therefore he's scum"

Dann's openness to specifically calling out people to look at him (like in 264) are making me TR him, on top of which his playstyle is similar to recent games.

I'm hesitant on my Sky read. A previous game I had a SR on someone early on, partially because of their low content, but then they did participate in later Days but were scum. I'm not getting the same SR feel from Sky as I did on that player, but the playstyle claim makes me nervous now.

[shaddowez]

Well if you’re not busy that’s even worse. Now it really does seem like you’re purposely avoiding contributing. I don’t think there is anything townie about that so…

Do you feel that anti-town and scum are the same?

[shaddowez]

I am not sure about Jupiter's outbursts, are they genuine or an act

I've been asking myself the same question - they could be AtE, but more of them do feel genuine than not. My problem is they have two votes on them, and seem to be lashing out about one particular item that only the two people currently voting them have even really brought up.

[shaddowez]

also you haven't pushed anyone besides me. if you were pushing someone else i would still be scumreading you. i've been asking you about your reasoning and you've just let those responses drop. there's no reason for me to rescind my scumread when your responses on me are still scummy

1) Your main reason for SRing me that you've stated is because of my push on you. If I was pushing someone else, interactions would be completely different - how can you say that you'd be SRing me even if I was pushing someone else without knowing how those interactions would go?

2) So am I letting my responses drop, or are they scummy? You may not like them and SR them, but saying I'm not responding is disingenuous at best. In 420 I respond to your 288, in 470 I respond to your 233.

[shaddowez]

@Titus

- Do both of your other reads change if the first of any of them to flip are town?

There seem to be a lot of associative reads in this game, which is great until they're not.

[shaddowez]

I think making multiple pre-flip reads on if Kurtapika flips scum is partner indicative because Black has been purportedly hard town reading Kurtapika since like the start of the game. These frequent interjections about possible partners for Kurtapika are also the type of reads to come from a buddy a lot - they feel safe to make because *half* of the read is true.

I don't think it really makes sense for Black to be hard townreading Kurtapika but also be constantly considering possible partners (not to mention the fact that her associative read between me and Kurtapika makes 0 amount of sense and I feel was just thrown out there to put something out there). It reads like preparing for kurtapika to flip red

Are you voting between the two based on an assumed associative? If not, why Kurta over Black? I have a reason for asking, but want your thoughts here before I provide mine.

[shaddowez]

I still don't like project repeatedly using lack of experience or newb status as a defense

That's something I see from new scum a lot of the time

I don't really feel as good about it at the moment though and I can't really explain why

^ what i was saying

personally i want to move my vote to project but i'm also pretty convinced on kurtapika, especially considering the blatant lack of solving and scumreads coming from kurta (e.g i literally asked them hey what're your scumreads" and they didnt answer)

You're still voting me, so you're not voting either of the people you're talking about in this post

[shaddowez]

also you haven't pushed anyone besides me. if you were pushing someone else i would still be scumreading you. i've been asking you about your reasoning and you've just let those responses drop. there's no reason for me to rescind my scumread when your responses on me are still scummy

1) Your main reason for SRing me that you've stated is because of my push on you. If I was pushing someone else, interactions would be completely different - how can you say that you'd be SRing me even if I was pushing someone else without knowing how those interactions would go?

2) So am I letting my responses drop, or are they scummy? You may not like them and SR them, but saying I'm not responding is disingenuous at best. In 420 I respond to your 288, in 470 I respond to your 233.

1. Iirc, you called my push on you OMGUS or something along those lines. What I’m trying to say is if you made that push on literally anyone else for the same reason I’d also find it absurd.
2. I’m pretty sure I made more than just two posts about you? There’s certainly been more responses than that what

Tbh I’m willing to re evaluate you but you usually just come into the thread argue with me and disappear, so honestly it’d be nice to see more action from you since you’re borderline tunneling on me

1) I did call it an OMGUS at one point, because that's what it felt like. However, you seem to be thinking about it backwards because my vote on you was prior to that, the push wasn't

because

I saw your vote that way. That said, clearing up that the same argument on someone else would have led to the same conclusion makes more sense than the original phrasing.
2) I wasn't going to write an entire post with all of our interactions, I just brought up a few as examples to disprove what you said.

I'll admit it has been a pseudo-tunnel, I haven't had as much in any one go as I would like so I've been generally catching up and just responding to our interactions.

I am not sure about Jupiter's outbursts, are they genuine or an act

I've been asking myself the same question - they could be AtE, but more of them do feel genuine than not. My problem is they have two votes on them, and seem to be lashing out about one particular item that only the two people currently voting them have even really brought up.

People who aren’t voting me have also talked about it and I think Afrayed has been a bit shitty to me so I don’t know how you expect me to react to this in a winning fashion

I may have missed them, but didn't recall seeing many (if any) others pushing based on that specific post. I did notice Afrayed's interactions with you, but again they seemed based on other things.

[shaddowez]

VOTE: UNVOTE

There are things I still really don't like and may end up kicking myself later, but I'm losing a little of my SR with their recent postings. Just cleaning up the VC a little here until I get a chance to formulate them better.

[shaddowez]

@Mod

Forgot to post my standard weekend V/LA, will be back on Monday

[shaddowez]

I am admittedly not at all caught up, so going backwards/random posts:

Intent

If this flips town I'm deathtunneling Titus tomorrow

Why specifically Titus? She's been reading T3 as scum for a while, so may be missing something based on not having read yet but want your answer anyway.

[shaddowez]

I hardclaim VT

VOTE: Skygazer

I'm not even sure if Titus is scum at this point. Maybe I'm confbiased but she probably is

If you think Titus is scum, why the vote on Sky instead?

[shaddowez]

VOTE: Black

Part of my reason for asking Dann his thoughts in 841 was because I was starting to lean here. There was a push on Kurta, and even though she was townreading him she kept making associatives with Kurta. Several people seemed to think it was Black parterning Kurta, but I see it a different way - if Kurta were to flip town, there's now an argument for

all

of those associatives to now become clear (i.e. they were only scum if Kurta was, but he wasn't so they're not).

901 also becomes

very

important based on flips.

[shaddowez]

Jeez, I've got a lot to catch up on. Haven't read more than a page of D2 yet, but based on Black's interactions and everything else from D1 I'm gonna start here - nono/snivy. Reading might change my mind, but between the VCA and Black trying to associate nono with Kurta based on a very low activity player makes me not like that slot.

[shaddowez]

Mostly caught up (read all of the posts, but only skimmed most of the walls). Wasn't going to touch Titus today anyway (didn't pick up on the D1 crumb, but her and Dann were my only two solid TRs from D1).

I'm torn on T3. I've never liked his wagon formations, and in this setup we have a soft guilty at best.

I'm not a fan of Kurta, but the Black interactions make it too obv. WIFOM to be sure, but there's something about it I don't like. In my PoE, but not high. Waiting to see more in D2.

The AK interactions on D1 could definitely be scum theater. 591 could easily be distancing. Yes he was pushing Black all of D1, but there didn't seem to be any traction until it speedwagoned towards the end. Black's self-hammer defeats wagon analysis both from a bussing hammer, or from anyone that was bussing hopping off before the hammer.

More to come...

[shaddowez]

Current high-level PoE pool: {Aisa, AK, camel, sky}

[shaddowez]

VOTE: snivy

This is where I want to be right now

[shaddowez]

do you have any comments on titus or t3

Unless there's a counter claim, I'm not going to touch Titus. With a doctor still in play, the JK is a soft guilty at best. I'm not opposed to a T3 flip, because it would definitely be informational, but I don't read him as scummy enough to put my vote there yet.

I don't agree with T3 that snivy's "using his vote". Yes, his vote is somewhere, but someone with one vote on them and not much if any conversation around them isn't going to make scum magically appear. I'm still of the opinion that Black was more likely to have been trying to clear her partners with the Kurta associations than partnering Kurta himself, and neither nono or snivy have done anything to make me TR them.

[shaddowez]

Sorry for not officially posting my weekend V/LA - I have a decent amount to catch up on. Was Aisa's vote hammer (guessing so based on 1668)?

[shaddowez]

honestly what if Dannflor is scum

It'll be like pisskop in 244 that you modded :/

[shaddowez]

Like obviously consider my vote automatically on whoever Titus jailed, but I'm just gonna place it on Snivy for fun

I'll sheep this, that's where I was voting yesterDay. If Titus counters it I'll move too.

VOTE: camel

[shaddowez]

sorry skygazer for being a bit of an ass

i don't think you're scum anymore if it needs saying

I have to say there's a pretty good chance Sky is where I was going to be looking today.

[shaddowez]

Unless I will have to cancel my plans because I'm sick, which is looking increasingly likely.

Feel better!

[shaddowez]

VOTE: kurta

I was actually just looking at VCs and doubting my camel read. There were too many times where Black, T3, and camel were voting the same place to make it likely all 3 were scum together.

[shaddowez]

it takes 7 to repossess someone's reptile

What kind of reptile?

[shaddowez]

Titus you were hoodwinked D3. The fact it was a quick lim sucks. You had a lot of time to let everyone post yesterday and you simply threw that away thinking you were right and didn’t consider all angles. Did you not consider that Scum could be deliberately not night limming so that we would lim your night target? And win the game through mislims?

I restate my suspicion of Asia and feel that scum sits with them or with an experienced player. Possibly Dann or Sky should be considered for such a play tactic. But I’m going to wait to see who your target was last night.

But I intend to vote Aisa today unless there is a compelling reason not to.

I agree we need to all slow down today, but why are you specifically blaming Titus for the speed of the wagon? Any one of us that voted could have held off to try and give more time. I know you're already considering voting Aisa, but that's where I'd say more of the blame should be than Titus since she hammered. Additionally, you're accusing Titus of not thinking about the fact scum could have no-killed when in her very first post of the Day where she claimed who she jailed she did say that:

I jailed K. It's not an auto guilty as scum could have faked a no kill, but it's likely just K.

VOTE: K

[shaddowez]

If the doctor's doing anything but protecting the JK right now, they're doing it wrong

[shaddowez]

Out until Monday

[shaddowez]

Catching up - willing to continue voting Snivy, but want to confirm it won't be a derphammer before I do.

Current townbloc is {Titus, Dann, OWER, me}.

Current pool I'd be willing to vote in is {AK, Sky, Snivy}

Everyone else is various degrees of null, some above the line and some below.

Saw the brief convo about Jupiter's posts, and don't read those as scummy as all. I feel like the comment about not wanting to post in main is supported by his ask about the note thread, not weakened by it.

Now to read walls.

[shaddowez]

Then if you look at the construct of his immediate post it suggests a hurried rebuttal being typed, the way the sentence is broken and covers a few lines.

226 and 227 have the same back to back posting they're exhibiting here.
266 and 268 they have a continuing thought.

Soooo....I went into this not to explicitly defend Jupiter, but because I recalled them doing things similar in the past and wanted to call it NAI. However, going back through their ISO there's a LOT of "I'll be back later" or "I'll get to this" with no follow ups.

1099, 1108, and 1117 (<- this one specifically doing what I mentioned) have a realllly weird vibe to them after flips.

P-Edit

:

how in the world are you still scumreading me lol

Honestly largely because I misremembered who one of the T3/you interactions was with and thought it was someone else. Swapping you and Jupiter after my rereads.

[shaddowez]

Yeah, doing this for now....may revisit after another reread but I can't not

VOTE: Snivy

[shaddowez]

Yeah, doing this for now....may revisit after another reread but I can't not

VOTE: Snivy

yeahhhh this is not cutting it for me

VOTE: shaddowez

I've been on and off voting you for a few Days now - why is my vote the one you don't like opposed to any others?

Yeah, doing this for now....may revisit after another reread but I can't not

VOTE: Snivy

yeahhhh this is not cutting it for me

VOTE: shaddowez

*also wanted to say that if shaddow isn't scum i don't think scum wants to be on my wagon rn

dont really know how to get out of this vice because I'm not really sure how i got here in the first place

so just keep an eye out for shaddow, projectery and skygazer (only slightly) for now

also i do think it is optimal play to always lim the JK target but i forgot my reasoning

What are your actual reasons for any of your reads? If you are town, giving the rest of us insight as to why to look at any of these people would be helpful. You're also being contradictory - Sky and I can't both be scum, you say if I'm not scum scum wouldn't be on your wagon, yet Sky is on your wagon and he's one of your reads. Can you explain?

[shaddowez]

My town core is me, Titus, sky. The next teir is like knot, dann, then shadowez and Jupiter, then I need to have another look at outer and project.

My poe is surprisingly small. My worry is 'deep wolf ' but it can only be Dan or shadow

I’m with you on the deep wolf thought.but more towards Dann thank Shaddow

But you are voting with him?

I’m suspicious of him, as you say it’s a worry, which is why I agree with you. I have expressed this previously. But is there anything to go on?

I’m more convinced Jupiter or Asia are a good vote. And again I’ve maintained this thought from yesterday to today.

I agree with most of this. I've been TRing Dann all game, but with the narrowing pool the chance of a deepwolf is increasing. Not ready to vote there as of yet, since I don't have anything concrete to go on and there are other people I read as scummier, but worth looking into. Bella's in a similar position, but slightly less of a strong TR to begin with.

While I had a slight SR on AK, his continued push on the same people (for the most part) seems like a dumb, risky move to make as the last remaining scum. At this point if both of his pushes are town, it'd be a logical jump to lim him, and there's still enough town alive to make that happen.

I agree with Dann that I don't believe Jupiter's outbursts are AI. The first time around they seemed to me like they could've been AtE, but this current bout seems like more genuine frustration. There are still things I don't like, and he's definitely towards the bottom of my reads list, but want to make sure I'm not meshing a play style with a read (sorry Snivy, that's twice).

OWER's play, especially in D1, felt like he was legitimately trying to hunt, so he's a pretty solid TR in my list right now as well.

I never did my reread on Aisa, which I'll do today, as well as another dive on Project.

That was kinda all over the place, so I'll do a more organized list once I've done my rereads.

[shaddowez]

Realized I left Sky off my previous list, since not much has changed from my last position on him. Primarily his earlier interactions with T3, and then later interactions with Dann all seem to be coming from an informed perspective.

As for my bottom two reads (Aisa and Project), I'm slowly making my way through their ISOs and other interactions. One thing that is seriously pinging me is 101. I don't think Black would defend both of her scum buddies in the same post, making Aisa a slightly more likely suspect at this point.

[shaddowez]

an uninformed

Weep womp. Stupid autocorrect

[shaddowez]

VOTE: Aisa

Throughout the game, Project's reads seem to develop naturally based on his questioning and interactions with the rest of the players. On the other hand, Aisa has some very weak reads she tries to defend (especially regarding T3), and her interactions with Black are off.

I've acquired tentative

townreads

on both Dann and Black. I know they are considered capable scum players and maybe I am playing with fire but still

I think I initially underestimated how similar Black's posting is between Open 888 and here and assumed Afrayed was being stubborn. I;ve just tkaen another look and at least superficially there are similarities
I'm

not saying this makes Black scum

but I feel more understanding of Afrayed's push on her now

thank for wagoning black for me

while i blissfully ignored the game for a day

[shaddowez]

@mod

V/LA through the holiday, back on Wednesday 12/27.

[shaddowez]

Finally back - hope everyone that celebrates had a nice Christmas.

I know I have a lot of catching up to do - only having seen the current page so far, if there's a wagon on me and you're on it, it's bad and you should feel bad.

Working backwards for now - in response to 2243, I'm not sure what you're aiming at here. I

never

defended Black, had a SR toward the end of D1 and voted her D2 pretty much as soon as I came back from my V/LA.

As for T3, I was pretty vocal about not liking the wagon or SRing him. You're post makes it sound like I was soft defending (I wasn't, there wasn't really a defense outside of I don't SR him) and not pushing him, which again - why would I push someone I didn't SR when I was voting someone I did?

[shaddowez]

2239 is a repeat (or the predecessor, I guess?) to Aisa from my last post in regards to my interactions with Black and T3.

when he tries to discredit or question people’s scum reads - they are largely in relation to defending or directing attention away from T3, who we now know to be scum.

Other than my push on Jupiter, who I was SRing based on his initial play on T3, where was I doing what you're claiming I was doing?

[shaddowez]

oh god that is nto all i had to say that wasnt supposed to send

This specific post isn't

scummy

per se, but it's yet another instance of Jupiter pointing out that their post wasn't complete, or they'd get back to something, or some other similar filler post that they never come back to. Between this and a few other things, doing this.

VOTE: Jupiter

[shaddowez]

someone reread shaddowez and tell me there is a good reason to town read the slot

I can find reasons for aisa, project, outworlder, etc.

I’m not finding one for shaddowez

The iso is worse than I thought tbf. Lots of....mini pushes?

VOTE: outworlder

I think I feel best about this as a wagon for today.

Of the 4 people you list in 2241, why specifically OWER? Outside of 2113 and 2189 you don't say anything about OWER recently, and as a matter of fact in 2091 you agree with me in 2090 where I TR OWER.

From a personal standpoint i didn’t like the line about me being wrong in two consecutive games

It 1. Assumes that I am town

2. Tone seems less indignant than i might expect from town getting wrongly scum read

1) I'm not sure how your alignment matters. You were (basically) calling me scum. Whether or not you know my alignment, your assessment of me that you were voicing to the rest of the game was incorrect there. You also SR me in the prior game where I wasn't scum, hence my comment
2) I don't generally get indignant unless I'm being wagoned for a reason that I see as being really dumb.

[shaddowez]

I suppose that with the benefit of someone else telling me to look into shaddowez, and feeling like I have permission to be critical of his posting I see things I didn't before, lol

VOTE: Aisa

Throughout the game, Project's reads seem to develop naturally based on his questioning and interactions with the rest of the players. On the other hand, Aisa has some very weak reads she tries to defend (especially regarding T3), and her interactions with Black are off.

I've acquired tentative

townreads

on both Dann and Black. I know they are considered capable scum players and maybe I am playing with fire but still

I think I initially underestimated how similar Black's posting is between Open 888 and here and assumed Afrayed was being stubborn. I;ve just tkaen another look and at least superficially there are similarities
I'm

not saying this makes Black scum

but I feel more understanding of Afrayed's push on her now

thank for wagoning black for me

while i blissfully ignored the game for a day

This is a pretty vague post. What exactly is bad about my interactions with Black in those posts?

That's true, my phrasing was poor here. There are instances where you have interactions with Black that pinged me (still catching up on what I've actually missed, so not sure I'll get to that today), but these were more pointing out that you expressly said you didn't have a scumread on Black, then came back and responded to her lim as if you were planning on pushing it yourself.

Realized I left Sky off my previous list, since not much has changed from my last position on him. Primarily his earlier interactions with T3, and then later interactions with Dann all seem to be coming from an informed perspective.

As for my bottom two reads (Aisa and Project), I'm slowly making my way through their ISOs and other interactions. One thing that is seriously pinging me is 101.

I don't think Black would defend both of her scum buddies in the same post

, making Aisa a slightly more likely suspect at this point.

Black actually states a townread on Project in the very same post

Yes - she explicitly agrees with Project on his T3 read on the same line as her T3 read. My point is that I don't think she would group both her partners together like that, making it more likely that Project is actually town since her and T3 both flipped scum.

Titus you were hoodwinked D3. The fact it was a quick lim sucks. You had a lot of time to let everyone post yesterday and you simply threw that away thinking you were right and didn’t consider all angles. Did you not consider that Scum could be deliberately not night limming so that we would lim your night target? And win the game through mislims?

I restate my suspicion of Asia and feel that scum sits with them or with an experienced player. Possibly Dann or Sky should be considered for such a play tactic. But I’m going to wait to see who your target was last night.

But I intend to vote Aisa today unless there is a compelling reason not to.

I agree we need to all slow down today, but why are you specifically blaming Titus for the speed of the wagon? Any one of us that voted could have held off to try and give more time. I know you're already considering voting Aisa, but that's where I'd say more of the blame should be than Titus since she hammered.
[...]

As if:
1. There wasn't at least one other slot (Projectry) who expressed interest in hammering Kurtapika
2. Titus didn't say "let's just hammer" moments before I hammered
3. There weren't 6 other people who built the wagon and could have unvoted to prevent a hammer (he acknowledges this, but for some reason I still have "more of the blame")
4. It was a bad decision to eliminate Kurtapika

This is part of the problem with going and looking for things to find. You're either trying to pick and find something to SR me on, or you're getting defensive about anything I said that

might

incriminate you, neither of which is a good look. I never SR you for the hammer, nor have I brought it up in any of the cases I have made against you. I would have made the same case for anyone that hammered, since AK seemed to be going after Titus here which was completely illogical.

From a personal standpoint i didn’t like the line about me being wrong in two consecutive games

It 1. Assumes that I am town

2. Tone seems less indignant than i might expect from town getting wrongly scum read

I thought it was a sweet post which I guess made me more likely to see it in a positive light
There's no reason it cannot come from scum on second thought

Spoiler: The post in question btw

I'm not saying don't vote her Jupiter but of your two scum reads I view shaddowez less favorably personally

You can be wrong in two consecutive games, it's fine

I absolutely agree, it could have come from either alignment. The tone of this makes it sound like you're reading it as scummy now, but wouldn't it just be NAI?

[shaddowez]

This feels like a misrep. They've really clearly never been in my town core, and 'kinda' is doing a lot of work for me in that. I went and had a better look and I didn't see much I liked..the thing you are calling hunting is what I'm seeing as 'mini pushes' that fizzle out: do you not agree they go nowhere?

Like it looks like you went througj my iso determined to find a thing to shade me for.

If what you mean by going through your ISO finding a post on the next to last page as I was catching up in reverse, I absolutely did that. Once I found a naked vote (yes there was text, but not really a reason for the vote), I went looking for why you made that vote. Why? Because I'm not currently SRing OWER, so if you had things to say about him that might change my mind I would have looked into them. Since I didn't find any, I asked. Now, instead of giving me an actual reason, you're accusing me of shading you.

As for the "mini-pushes", sure....didn't realize how effective one was at getting other people to sheep was AI, though. If you go by that logic, I'm scum in all my games.

[shaddowez]

That's not what I mean by mini pushes. I mean he pokes a lot at random stuff and then ....drops it. It's not about how effective he is at 'town leader', it's that I don't see tons of follow up. I don't go 'cool, this is an extended thought proces, good sorting'. I haven't checked but I also don't remember really engaging with the slot either: and I've interacted with the majority of the playlist. It's a follow through issue.

I'll have to go back and look - I misunderstood and thought you were talking about me with mini-pushes, which I would also consider somewhat accurate.

[shaddowez]

Excluding any posts arising from your push of Jupiter, your posts at 55, 119, 192, 209 and 1539, can all be construed as attempting to question or undermine any scum reads on T3.

Granted you could have genuinely believed T3 was town and then those posts wouldn’t be an issue, but early game a lot of your focus seemed to be defending or trying to undermine any scumread on T3, which just isn’t sitting right with me.

I could potentially see how some (not all, but that is coming from the perspective of me knowing I'm town) could be construed that way. Not really much I can say to how you're reading into them, other than reiterating that since I didn't have a SR, I was really looking for stronger arguments from the people that were. If you'd like to dive into any of them specifically, I can try to remember what I was thinking at those points in the game.

[shaddowez]

but i'm around ten pages not caught up

How can you be 10 pages not caught up when this is on page 93, and in 2230 (which was on page 90) you caught up on pages 84-87?

[shaddowez]

No, see, I don't think you've done that, because I do actually see some 'follow up' from you. I was saying particularly with your day one read that you mention in the post you linked, that I disagred it was 'hunting' because of the lack of... consistency

I've reviewed his ISO a couple of times, and I'm not sure I see what you're saying. He's been SRing Project most of the game and has pushed a couple of times, but has also looked at other people. I realize it was early game and there was no guarantee of a lim yet, so these may have been safe posts, but 984 and 986 would be

reallllllly

risky for the third partner to say.

[shaddowez]

As the pool shrinks I'm getting more paranoid. Several people are doing things that I don't like, but I'm not sure they're scummy.

Dann

: Asking everyone to focus on one particular person puts a preconceived notion in their heads. Could be a tactic to try and get a wagon for a mislim, or could legitimately be asking others for a sanity check.

Jupiter

: Multiple "I'm catching up"/"I'm not caught up" posts, several outbursts that could be AtE. Or, all of this could be playstyle.

AK

: Aggressive tone and shading Titus. Not a fan, but of all things this seems to be least likely from scum, as just leaving Titus alone probably works in scum's favor.

Aisa

: On top of other things, Aisa's current vote on me seems like a combination of OMGUS and hyperfocus based on Dann's suggestion. Gut is starting to tell me she's a mislim though.

I'm working a theory, but don't have time to put it into words right now. Will hopefully be able to do so this afternoon.

[shaddowez]

you literally criticized me for leaving and not finishing it so idk what you're on about

Because it's been a while since I've been in school, but I'm pretty sure that my math of 93-87 != 10 is accurate. And instead of actually catching up, you're doing things like complaining about the fact I'm calling you out on it.

[shaddowez]

also where am i complaining abt you calling me out on not catching up?

i'm busy irl ? i have no time to do a full catchup dude

you literally criticized me for leaving and not finishing it so idk what you're on about

[shaddowez]

dann is pushing you because no one else is scummy enough to be pushed...

It's not Dann pushing me that's a problem. If he had specific arguments and said "I think shaddow is scummy because of [

x,y, and z

]" that's one thing, and while wrong doesn't seem like he's trying to make other people look at me negatively as a whole from the offset. This comes across as him saying "Hey shaddowez is scummy, you should go look at him and find reasons for him to be scummy"

[shaddowez]

Willing to consolidate, but not on OWER today. V/LA for New Years, will try to post tomorrow/Tuesday

[shaddowez]

Sorry, New Years and birthday plans went different than expected, so wasn't around to post earlier.

Consolidating for now since deadline is about 9 hours from this post.

VOTE: Aisa

Going with a gut feeling here, going to try and pull stuff together in order to show support for it though since at this point gut isn't enough - if it's not Aisa I think it may be Bella.

Also, yes, I realize there's a push to lim me today. I'm not going to bother trying to stop it, because it makes more sense for me to get my thoughts out about who may be scum, and we can still win even if I'm limmed today.

[shaddowez]

Re-reading her ISO, and I can't figure out why I TR Bella, it's more of I never really had a SR on her. Looking back, here are things I'm noticing though that as the Days went on that I don't like:

Bella hasn't had any firm scum reads she's been willing to comment on. There have been several where she agrees to go along with them, but none of her reads seem genuine.
Prior to today, other than D1 Bella hasn't been on

any

wagon. I realize Days 2-4 all went pretty quickly, but it's still hard to understand why she wouldn't vote anywhere at all.
On D1, she had a total of 3 votes (more on those in a moment) - the last of which was the Black hammer. There was a TR on her because she "didn't know it was a hammer" and Black "self-hammered", but that could have been planned and scum theater, especially considering those two posts were 5 minutes apart.
She doesn't have many votes to begin with, but looking at her voting pattern from what she does have - with the exception of RVS and toDay's first vote, she's only voting on wagons that are already rolling.
There is

very

little interaction with T3, outside of the "Is it bad to have a TR/ is it bad to have a SR" convo from the beginning of D1.

[shaddowez]

I think we all want to get the mafia today and have the game be over.

I'm not voting myself, but around to pivot to Bella if that were to gain traction. Not willing to try to deviate anywhere else right now

[shaddowez]

@shiki

- Did you have questions about the posts of mine that you quoted?

[shaddowez]

did you ever follow up on why 901 was important and what it meant to you

I had a higher SR on Kurta than T3 at the time and since there had been a Kurta wagon that was getting deflected, I thought it less likely that Black was pointing at her partner than defending (ie since she was suggesting T3 over Kurta I thought it more likely Kurta was a partner). I was obviously wrong with that. That's why the following posts are still against a T3 lim.

[shaddowez]

did you ever follow up on why 901 was important and what it meant to you

I had a higher SR on Kurta than T3 at the time and since there had been a Kurta wagon that was getting deflected, I thought it less likely that Black was pointing at her partner than defending (ie since she was suggesting T3 over Kurta I thought it more likely Kurta was a partner). I was obviously wrong with that. That's why the following posts are still against a T3 lim.

do you think

black was likely approaching a partner in a similar way to how they were approaching kurtapika?

I'm not sure. If so, based on 101 that would bring the pool back to Aisa and Project.

[shaddowez]

I jailed shadow.

I was obviously the NK target and protected!

Even so, I agree that it makes sense to lim the JK target. That said, not self voting since it goes against my wincon.

[shaddowez]

@shiki

- By a miscalc, do you mean aiming at the wrong target?

[shaddowez]

Before we rush to a mislim - I was a heavy target yesterDay. It's logical that I was the JK target, and therefore also an easy lim today for scum to have no killed again

[shaddowez]

Paranoia's setting in again, but since there's pretty much no chance I see tomorrow - {Dann, Bella, Jupiter}

[shaddowez]

I was obviously the NK target and protected!

'obviously'

like there are still other potential explanations but this one clearly isn't it

lol - and you've obviously not played with me enough to recognize my sarcasm without my sign.

[shaddowez]

thought we made it to the

open-wolfing

shitposting phase finally

This is accurate, I'm in that kind of mood right now

[shaddowez]

{Dann, Bella, Jupiter}

it's funny i can't tell if this is your PoE or your town reads

PoE at this point. I could be totally off base, but I have been the rest of the game so why not?

[shaddowez]

@shiki

- By a miscalc, do you mean aiming at the wrong target?

no i mean scums miscalculating the situation/remaining eliminations/how to play it out

like i assumes scums have never been no killing right there's no reason for them to ever no kill instead of submitting 'kill titus'

but last night continuing to submit kill titus would be unwise because it eliminates the need for weighing and poe like scums would have to play any endgame with a clear alive at best

so therefore titus's check last night should either be a guilty, or! the scums didn't map it out

and it seems unlikely that dannflor would have not mapped it out because i spelled it out to him yesterday

so dannflor would be intentionally playing into predesigned endgame thus why my options today are designed for town to choose the endgame not the scums

That tracks. I think there was a better target, so I'm not sure why they would have targeted Titus again. The only other scenario would have involved Titus JKing somebody else, but assuming she's not lying (and I see absolutely no reason why she would), that didn't happen.

[shaddowez]

I want the game over as much as anyone. I'm not self voting, and it wouldn't end the game anyway.

tbh it is within your win condition to self vote if you're town here shaddowez

How so?

[shaddowez]

I guess to be fair it's not against wincon, it just doesn't further my wincon

[shaddowez]

Because he's starting to give me vibes reminiscent of a deepwolf in another game

[shaddowez]

@mod

- Off for the day and on to my standard weekend V/LA

I'd prefer to not be limmed while I'm not here, but will try to post some over the weekend. Kids have a lot of stuff going on, so no promises though

[shaddowez]

Oh man....good game all!

[shaddowez]

For a hot minute I thought my perfect record since coming back to the site was gonna get shattered

[shaddowez]

I had Jupiter as a SR on D1, I really need to trust those feels more.