Mini Normal 2326 | Everything has exploded !

[outoforder]

Having caught up, I'm starting to town-lean Vivax again based on his recent posts. I just think if he's scum then he's making life unnecessarily difficult for himself.

I have a soft town-lean on Gob, which perhaps I will elaborate on earlier.

Dann and ninja are still clearly town
Outoforder is most probably town too
I think Oats and Darth punk are town, but am less confident
Then comes Gob and Dunn, who are soft Town-leans. Maybe Grackaroni too, but I need to see more.

The only clear scumread I have right now is Roden. The other slots haven't left much of an impression on me yet.

I fail to realise, if you have 9 town reads, what's so hard in this game?
Of if you don't believe your reads, why -- after this -- you don't do anything about it?

[DarthPunk]

Ninja can i get a reads list with every explanation being 1-2 sentences?

I am complying with the request of no more than 2 sentences per person. If any of you want more detail on any of these reads, please ask and we can have at it. But I will be mercifully brief this time lol.

TOWN READS

Luca Blight

- I've been on the same wavelength as them for pretty much the entire game. I think they're going into good detail on their reads and putting in a level of effort that suggests town.

OutOfOrder

- Pretty much the same reasons, same wavelengths, same avenues of discussion, and they've really been bringing it lately with pressing views and such.

Dannflor

- Good drill-down into things, applying the right pressure in the right places, staying very involved in everything.

DarthPunk

- I've come to appreciate his style of taking things as they come and responding appropriately to everything. He's asking lots of questions, trying to clarify things, pushing in the right ways.

SLIGHT TOWN READS

(as in, I don't read them quite as strongly as town, but they still land in "town" territory rather than "null" territory)

Oatsmaster

- I wonder about some of the things he does and he's a little bit of a loose cannon, but he hasn't done anything that seems especially scummy to me and I appreciated his push on Roden.

Grackaroni

- I felt good about him after our last back-and-forth. I haven't seen enough from him to put him into firm town territory and I hope he continues to catch up more and contribute more, but for now I'm okay leaning town on him.

Gob

- I would put Gob in the null category, but process of elimination and the strength of other reads bumps him up here to a slight town read. I think I have come to understand what he's all about and I think he's just being an extremely blase townie.

Dunnstral

- There's not a ton of content from Dunnstral but his latest contributions are more encouraging and useful and I find myself on the same wavelength with him. Earlier today I was torn on whether the 3rd scum was either Dunnstral or Hu Tao, I ISO'd both and came down with a much stronger conviction of guilt on Hu Tao, so Dunnstral bumps up to town category.

NULL READ

Naerys

- Hasn't said or done nearly enough for me to classify Naerys as anything other than null.

SCUM READS

Hu Tao

- I don't like their reads or actions, I think they've been largely unhelpful, and their latest contributions after catching up were extremely underwhelming.

Vivax

- His reads are super weird, his actions make no sense, the people he thinks are guilty are pretty obviously town to me, the people he thinks are innocent don't deserve the townread he gives them.

Roden

- Overly defensive and seems to have vanished after getting more heat.


Overall I actually feel very good about this reads list, probably the most confidence I've felt about my reads so far. I do feel like Hu Tao / Vivax / Roden are the scum team here and it seems like a lot of things that have happened in this game support that theory.

I have a problem with this part:

TOWN READS

Luca Blight

- I've been on the same wavelength as them for pretty much the entire game. I think they're going into good detail on their reads and putting in a level of effort that suggests town.

OutOfOrder

- Pretty much the same reasons, same wavelengths, same avenues of discussion, and they've really been bringing it lately with pressing views and such.

I don't really understand how this viewpoint is possible, OOO and Luca have been coming into conflict all game pretty much so how can Ninja be on the same wavelength with both of them?

[outoforder]

I know i am town so the only reason Ninja says that as mafia is if she is mafia with Luca so i dont care atm.

[DarthPunk]

I know i am town so

the only reason Ninja says that as mafia is if she is mafia with Luca

so i dont care atm.

Why?

[Dunnstral]

Roden she said you used language that makes it seem like you have a rock-solid opinion.

Right. Why does town think scum has a "rock-solid opinion"? Scum just lies.

You are not really getting this. She is saying that you are indicating you have a strong opinion with your language, and that is part of her argument. She is not reading into your state of mind.

[outoforder]

I know i am town so

the only reason Ninja says that as mafia is if she is mafia with Luca

so i dont care atm.

Why?

Because she is too self-concious to do it otherwise as she knows she has better avenues to pursue. I know this is one of the reasons why Vivax thought i am mafia, but it's true. Her MO just says this is a no-no unless grouping a town and mafia, otherwise it doesn't make sense. If town, she is not so self-concious after all as she has made a lot of mistakes like that.

[Dunnstral]

The most bothering thing about Dann is that every now and then he pings Dunnstral, but then he goes back to do something completely different. Now i

can see

a townie reason for this, but i admit there is a moderate chance of distancing, because that's some pretty vague shit.

I think this is weird too. I'm not mafia though, this is all on Dann.

Why did you find this weird?

They continuously took issue with what I was responding to. My crime was holding a conversation.

[outoforder]

Spoiler:

This is IML. As soon as a majority is reached, the lunch is served. Drumming for quick votes is more mafia indicative than town indicative. We don‘t have enough information.

Consider this a FoS on Dannflor.

I'm actually thinking now, contrary to before, that this might be a mafia post. I mean the theory behind this is legit, but we are playing on a site where RVS is pretty common and Vivax knows it for sure. There is simply no reason to say this, especially FoS anyone for a RV.

[...]
In this instance

I can see Outoforder having that certain abrasiveness and pushing notions I mostly can't find myself agreeing with

so he's the person who takes the heat while his team tries to appear reasonable. Main point that makes me vote him is how he approached gob which wasn't even a real read, he just said mafia wouldn't use such terrible reasoning.
[...]

This is simply what happens in every single game when i am town. Yet Vivax somehow deduces this as a scum tell for me. Note that he doesn't even think gob is mafia.

[...]

We differ a lot in how we approach gob. You tend to just take people playing in a scummy manner at face value while to me he looks just like a player who has fun being contrarian and has zero fear of dying

while annoying the hell out of people who take the game extremely seriously. In that way, I prefer to just treat him as a little thorn in the side who draws too much attention for the game's good (no offense though, I find it amusing).
[...]

I specifically find it suspicious from Oats though that he treated gob in that exceedingly serious manner while I did in a different one as described above

. I mean sure, he doesn't make sense but if he's town that's a main priority for scum to push. I don't know his alignment but I could see him being town shark bait. He's not even triyng to be scummy on purpose, he's just... Derp?

Made the post a clickable spoiler since i assume that was the intent

First underline, that's

exactly how i did and have treated gob

, i am scummy.
Second underline, Oats did the opposite, he is scummy.
What is scummy? Is every singe way you treat gob scummy or what?
There is simply no reason to assume Oats has done anything out of his town range anyways. Vivax should also know that.

Oats mostly from his abrasiveness and the whole stuff I already explained surrounding the way he handled gob who I saw as lunch bait at the time.
You because of the interaction with Ninja that I explained. Would have expected more pushback from you or let's call it OMGUS if you will.
OOO similarly to Oats because of his initial bad vibe I got.

Vivax just described how DP would act as mafia and turned the whole thing around so that

that

would look town and

this doesn't

.
Similarly Vivax just described exactly how me and Oats appear as town, rather than as mafia. Sure,

both of us could probably act like that as mafia

but there is simply no reaso nto believe either of us is mafia

because

of that.

DP what's your excuse of not commenting on this post?
Same goes for Grack.

[Vivax]

VOTE: luca

I think we can move Hu Tao safely into town as well.

The chiming in is rare and rather sparse in words but consistent. Plus I liked the similar thoughts which earlier were in defense of Luca.

This vote in particular helps a lot to further the game into effective action after Roden declined to vote with me and OoO or to formulate a proper evaluation of Luca who he said he only unseriously called mafia in an earlier post.

Roden would probably a better vig target than Oats at this point because he declined the offer to participate in cooperation between me and OoO after we decided to just at least pretend to trust each other. An important step in any reconciliaton process.

I don‘t know if Roden is mafia but I can say that if he isn‘t, he isn‘t intent to help his wincon by putting his (is it pride?) aside to help town form a properly threatening consensus the mafia have to respect contrary to just individual reads.

[Dunnstral]

Ngl it's really feeling like people don't actually scum read me and are just mad I attacked their off site buddy, and then got so loud about it for 40+ pages that other people just eventually followed suit

Pretty disingenuous reading of the situation

I'm going to agree with this.

It's definitely not true for me, so yeah.

[outoforder]

Isnt it funny mafia is shitting their pants after we formed a two man town circle?

[Vivax]

Roden she said you used language that makes it seem like you have a rock-solid opinion.

Right. Why does town think scum has a "rock-solid opinion"? Scum just lies.

You are not really getting this. She is saying that you are indicating you have a strong opinion with your language, and that is part of her argument. She is not reading into your state of mind.

Is that alignment indicative in any way for Ninja or Roden or why are you keeping it this brief ?

One could think you are moderating this game instead of playing it.

In fact your behaviour suggests you don‘t mind being yeeted.

[outoforder]

Just out of (order) nowhere

[outoforder]

Roden she said you used language that makes it seem like you have a rock-solid opinion.

Right. Why does town think scum has a "rock-solid opinion"? Scum just lies.

You are not really getting this. She is saying that you are indicating you have a strong opinion with your language, and that is part of her argument. She is not reading into your state of mind.

Is that alignment indicative in any way for Ninja or Roden or why are you keeping it this brief ?

One could think you are moderating this game instead of playing it.

In fact your behaviour suggests you don‘t mind being yeeted.

Most issue i take with Dunn is that he seems to be more willing to comment on what other people mean than what he himself thinks....

[Vivax]

Isnt it funny mafia is shitting their pants after we formed a two man town circle?

That‘s the reason I dislike people who can‘t abandon a grudge which is a sign of maturity and not taking oneself too seriously.

For every grudge there‘s a situation that deserves present action for better reasons.

Had a few instances of abandoning grudges and then being proven that the other side could never change though.

[outoforder]

Had a few instances of abandoning grudges and then being proven that the other side could never change though.

Im sorry to hear that.

[outoforder]

out of topic; Fuck, Clayman is a boss album...

[Dunnstral]

I comment on what I find interesting and correcting incorrect assumptions is interesting to me. I'm not likely to change the way I play.

[Dunnstral]

Literally nothing in this case makes me mafia.

I also keep returning to this response to my initial push on DP.

DarthPunk's response isn't to try and figure out whether I'm "bad town" pushing him or mafia pushing him. Instead his initial inclination is to focus on how the case doesn't make him mafia. Again, I don't think a town player's inclination here is to try and debunk the case point by point.

DP spends 568 doing pretty much exactly that

And then he follows up with 570 to ensure that everyone knows that the quality of my case is bad.

He's focused on the quality of my case, not my alignment. I really don't think this guy has been or is still trying to figure out what my alignment is, or anyone's alignment for that matter

I don't think this is a good arguement for them being mafia. Town can focus on the quality of the case.

[Dunnstral]

This Dann vs DP thing has good odds of just being TvT for the same reason I wanted to have a quarrel with Dann earlier.

What was that reason?

Being antagonistic because someone saw their status challenged.

Dann is supposed to be something like a personal champion of the site I think.

Maybe the fact DP could outshine him in the long term wants him to shut DP down.
It‘s kinda townie, but won‘t be helpful. Every duck measuring contest on TL ended up being tvt.

I don't think Dann has that much ego to do that.

[outoforder]

I comment on what I find interesting and correcting incorrect assumptions is interesting to me. I'm not likely to change the way I play.

Maybe i will get to that tomorrow when i read your past games.
rn this thing with vivax is faaaaaar more interesting to me. you can chime in if you'd like!

[outoforder]

This Dann vs DP thing has good odds of just being TvT for the same reason I wanted to have a quarrel with Dann earlier.

What was that reason?

Being antagonistic because someone saw their status challenged.

Dann is supposed to be something like a personal champion of the site I think.

Maybe the fact DP could outshine him in the long term wants him to shut DP down.
It‘s kinda townie, but won‘t be helpful. Every duck measuring contest on TL ended up being tvt.

I don't think Dann has that much ego to do that.

so you think dann as mafia would not challenge town!DP?

[Hu Tao]

Yeah, Dann doesn't have an ego. Just a good player. imo

[Dunnstral]

This Dann vs DP thing has good odds of just being TvT for the same reason I wanted to have a quarrel with Dann earlier.

What was that reason?

Being antagonistic because someone saw their status challenged.

Dann is supposed to be something like a personal champion of the site I think.

Maybe the fact DP could outshine him in the long term wants him to shut DP down.
It‘s kinda townie, but won‘t be helpful. Every duck measuring contest on TL ended up being tvt.

I don't think Dann has that much ego to do that.

so you think dann as mafia would not challenge town!DP?

I thought the post I was responding to was saying that Dann as town saw DP as a threat to his status as "paragon of the site" or somesuch and was going after DP due to an ego thing? That's what I don't think. I do think Dann could challenge DP - not for those reasons.

[Vivax]

Had a few instances of abandoning grudges and then being proven that the other side could never change though.

Im sorry to hear that.

If anyone cares about hearing two sides of the story it wouldn‘t happen.
As it is though, initiative bonus exists…

At least my GF understands me having gone through similar things.
We‘d rather trust authentic scumbags over fake perfect people since then. They didn‘t discover their flaws or hide them well.

Offtopic