JOAT uPick | FIN!

[Cabd]

That means we can STILL send Drew over?

Don't tempt me like that

VOTE: Lap

Ha, if this flips town maria will be insufferable tomorrow

Be honest you adore my company.

Drew, look her in the eyes and say "Yes Mistress" if you want to live. Trust me.

[MariaR]

Since you two are around though, please play devil's advocate and tell me areas where I am wrong, best cases stand up to scrutiny.

mm, I suppose if I was to play middle on your case with Lap's actions, I don't think the choices in and of themselves were that bad considering I don't think anyone was hard clear at the time unless I'm mistaken on the timeline.

I think the part of your case that holds the most weight is the posting (or lack of) around the slots.

Plus, Lap outted the result before I did mine, right? If you were mafia with a cop, did a result on your knowing mafia partner, and the result came back as everyone clear, would you instantly out it knowing that the end result is wrong?

[MariaR]

I was honestly more worried about HST and Hu Tao bussing out of desperation because of the vengekill, but I stomped that theory into the dirt after rereading the play and thinking what I would do as mafia down in a losing light.

Plus, the tone of their posts has so much confidence how can you not adore it!

Lemon as mafia would NK me and not out that they checked me. Dunnstral is meta.

It just leaves Ircher Lap Lover pair and Drew.

[Cabd]

Since you two are around though, please play devil's advocate and tell me areas where I am wrong, best cases stand up to scrutiny.

mm, I suppose if I was to play middle on your case with Lap's actions, I don't think the choices in and of themselves were that bad considering I don't think anyone was hard clear at the time unless I'm mistaken on the timeline.

I think the part of your case that holds the most weight is the posting (or lack of) around the slots.

Plus, Lap outted the result before I did mine, right? If you were mafia with a cop, did a result on your knowing mafia partner, and the result came back as everyone clear, would you instantly out it knowing that the end result is wrong?

Going into night one, there's a psuedoclear on the folks who got Harmony murdered for their slip that you are already town reading, no? Both myself and Pooky were in their deep town reads:

LTO

: Has made herself a valuable member of this union with quick and intelligent reads

Pooky

: A friendly comrade. Pocketed me early, so I must reevaluate in days to come
Dunnstral: While quiet, his words and votes are powerful and strategic
Titus: We may disagree, but she has a strong and confident spirit
Firebringer and Maid Cafe: Veteran union workers alike, whose casual play helps put all our hearts at ease.

The result wasn't "everyone clear" so much as "all aligned" but that also assumes that the parity cop EXISTS, which I am doubting in the first place!

The only thing we know for SURE is that they ended up visiting Bell somehow. It could have been something like a doctor shot to protect Hu Tao from getting vigged that got redirected there.

[Cabd]

Dunnstral is meta.

Dunn also cracked the Titus crumb code then playfully teased her about it in the main thread instead of, you know, dropping the codebook in a mafia PT and shutting the fuck up about it.

[Cabd]

It just leaves Ircher Lap Lover pair and Drew.

We have exactly that number of eliminations left, as chance would have it.

[Doctor Drew]

That means we can STILL send Drew over?

Don't tempt me like that

VOTE: Lap

Ha, if this flips town maria will be insufferable tomorrow

Be honest you adore my company.

I do!

Your tunnel on me is endearing in a way

[Cabd]

I wonder how many pages the pooky-bell hood is up to. I'll be really sad if they aren't yelling up a storm.

[Doctor Drew]

I wonder how many pages the pooky-bell hood is up to. I'll be really sad if they aren't yelling up a storm.

Reading that in post game is worth the price of admission

[MariaR]

That means we can STILL send Drew over?

Don't tempt me like that

VOTE: Lap

Ha, if this flips town maria will be insufferable tomorrow

Be honest you adore my company.

I do!

Your tunnel on me is endearing in a way

Part of me hopes we get it wrong so I can attempt to push you over again.

But, considering our exe's lined up I'm sure we've already won.

[Laplacian]

Day one ends on post 2353. All of Laplacian's ISO before this post should show a clear TRAJECTORY towards the reads he has, and his eventual targets, yes?

Let's look!


Lap's parity cop targets as claimed were:

Hu Tao, Lemon, and Dr. Drew

Day One Posts Mentioning Hu Tao

VOTE: Joyboy
Comrades, upon rereading I find Joyboy's roster of pirates and foes in revolutionary pamphlet #567 alarming. As has been called out by the ever-vigilant Doctor Drew and Lady Terminally Online, it included the absent light_ganski as an ally of Joyboy's under flimsy pretenses. Furthermore, the only two foes on the roster were Bell, a safe accusation at the time, and LTO, who is new to this union and its unique quirks. Joyboy then even says that LTO and Bell, his only two suspects are

not

aligned, meaning their read list only truly has one suspect in the end. I fear this incoherent list represents not Joyboy's true feelings, but was hastily built with ulterior motives. Joyboy is trying to deflect suspicion from away from his capitalistic lust for treasure.

Comrade, can I direct you to look at lemon?

Comrade Tao, I have already looked at lemon extensively, as per my grandiose speech in 318! I concluded that they where subtly undermining our union with their rhetoric. My post included both a vote for him and a delightful pun! I would be happy to vote him again should we convince more of our fellow workers of the world to unite in this cause. But first, I must investigate LTO's argument and Bell's rebuttal. This may take a while, as the combined length of both rivals the seminal work

Das Kapital

VOTE: Dunnstral

Comrade Firebringer, while our interactions in the past have sadly been few, I now feel compelled to ask why have you aimed your lens of suspicion at Comrade Dunnstral? Perusing the minutes of our past union meetings, the only time I can find you mentioning them was in missive #285. I had assumed this was in jest rather than a serious accusation of Dunn being a perfidious capitalist. Is there any further evidence for these aspersions so I may draw my own conclusions from your logic?

What do you think?

I think

I townread Firebringer and was confused by their vote, since I also townread Dunnstral. And it was right of me to ask since it was a meta argument and this is my 6th game on this site. I also think this is a bullshit post that exists solely because you've scumread me; I don't see anyone else asking other people questions getting

bold accusatory statements

. Likely case, you're tunneled. Worst case, scum trying to set me up as a future wagon.

And to get back in character. Something something unions good

If asking for an actual opinion is accusatory, then...I guess everything is accusatory. I have accused you of being scum, but directly giving you the opportunity to address my concerns is the opposite.

What are your HST and Lemon reads?

Comrade Titus, it was the bolding that I found offensive. As to your clarification and further questions, I have stated my opinions on many of our fellow workers throughout the game. My thoughts on Lemon.tangerine I have made abundantly clear; I find them suspicious across the board, from wording in early discussions, to an unprompted claim. I have happily voted them once, and would do so again without remorse or hesitation.

HolySpiritTurtle I find less clear due to their relative dearth of posts. I tentatively lean town, but this judgement may change after I see their case on Comrade Hu Tao.

I like HT & L_G's interactions around 1330ish.

Can we just put Pooky & Bell on opposite sides of the room? Bell's been the main character for like 90% of the game. Someone just cop/gunsmith him tonight so we can resolve it.

I'm also not reading any ISOs, used up all my tryhard energy thinking of synonyms for union and trying to remember how to spell bourgeoise

That's it. That's the entirety of direct mentions of their thoughts on Hu Tao one way or another before Day One ends. I'm supposed to believe this was his parity cop choice after leaving off on that positive note? (Oh, also, for the record, Hu Tao is NOT in his hero solve)

Let's do Drew next?

Day One Posts Mentioning Doctor Drew

VOTE: Joyboy
Comrades, upon rereading I find Joyboy's roster of pirates and foes in revolutionary pamphlet #567 alarming. As has been called out by the ever-vigilant Doctor Drew and Lady Terminally Online, it included the absent light_ganski as an ally of Joyboy's under flimsy pretenses. Furthermore, the only two foes on the roster were Bell, a safe accusation at the time, and LTO, who is new to this union and its unique quirks. Joyboy then even says that LTO and Bell, his only two suspects are

not

aligned, meaning their read list only truly has one suspect in the end. I fear this incoherent list represents not Joyboy's true feelings, but was hastily built with ulterior motives. Joyboy is trying to deflect suspicion from away from his capitalistic lust for treasure.

As page 47 heralds a friendly wager, I feel it unsporting to not enter

Spoiler: guess

Lemon, RH, Joyboy, Dr Drew

Wow. He literally only mentioned drew ONCE in passing as "Ever-vigilant" and then he's randomly in the hero solve?

Now Lemon gets plenty of mention, so let's go through Lemon.

Day One Posts Mentioning Lemon

Anyway inregards to our setup (i read someone posted it about being alot of 1-shot abilities which ofc it is lol) Id say that alot of ppl probably have much more creative abilities than on other forums.

Just a rumour i heard that setups are often more creative on mafiascum, sooo im expecting ppl to be doing more than complain abt union leaders lol

Aka throw nukes everywhere ty <3

Also n1 actions are gonna be p chaotic i assume bc 14 ppl all using joat actions lol (yes 15-1 is 14 after wagon)

So like what happens if everyone just kills another player?

Our noble group is 17 players, not 15. Likewise, we are blessed with a suite of one shots, made abundantly clear in the pre-game literature. Yet, this post is casual, nay, skeptical, about the existence of our one shots. Observe the hedging: "I read someone posted it", "a rumor", "probably have much more creative abilities". Our JOAT abilities were clear from the moment we signed up for the union!

COMRADES! I ask of you, why would a hard-working member of the proletariat ignore their unique skills and abilities? They would not. JOAT abilities are our way of interacting with the world, our way of finding information, our way of aiding and protecting allies, our way of furthering the perpetual march of progress! To ignore our skills is anathema to everything we stand for!

Therefore, there can be only one conclusion. Lemon.tangerine is a perfidious union-buster, as sour as his name. He has ignored his innate skills to focus on another ability, one shared with all scum. Murder.

VOTE: lemon.tangerine

Anyway inregards to our setup (i read someone posted it about being alot of 1-shot abilities which ofc it is lol) Id say that alot of ppl probably have much more creative abilities than on other forums.

Just a rumour i heard that setups are often more creative on mafiascum, sooo im expecting ppl to be doing more than complain abt union leaders lol

Aka throw nukes everywhere ty <3

Also n1 actions are gonna be p chaotic i assume bc 14 ppl all using joat actions lol (yes 15-1 is 14 after wagon)

So like what happens if everyone just kills another player?

Our noble group is 17 players, not 15. Likewise, we are blessed with a suite of one shots, made abundantly clear in the pre-game literature. Yet, this post is casual, nay, skeptical, about the existence of our one shots. Observe the hedging: "I read someone posted it", "a rumor", "probably have much more creative abilities". Our JOAT abilities were clear from the moment we signed up for the union!

COMRADES! I ask of you, why would a hard-working member of the proletariat ignore their unique skills and abilities? They would not. JOAT abilities are our way of interacting with the world, our way of finding information, our way of aiding and protecting allies, our way of furthering the perpetual march of progress! To ignore our skills is anathema to everything we stand for!

Therefore, there can be only one conclusion. Lemon.tangerine is a perfidious union-buster, as sour as his name. He has ignored his innate skills to focus on another ability, one shared with all scum. Murder.

VOTE: lemon.tangerine

Actually doesn’t this suggest otherwise? Omitting 2 players assumes 3-men team and if my brain still works correctly 17p usually has 4-men team, no?

I would indeed expect a 13-4 split; the foul bourgeoise would have sent no less than that to try, futile though it may be, to shatter our noble spirits. No, Lemon's omission of two comrades is a minor error that I would expect from distraction; instead the smoking gun of their perfidy comes from the skepticism of abilities. Reread their first sentence and tell me that it is not hedging, that is not feigned nonchalance. While the braying of Bell's possible slip still rings in our ears, lemon's words offer a far more damning perspective.

Omgus is nai

I concur. It is a natural reaction when one doubts your revolutionary spirit to lash back with harsh words and accusations. But while nai, it should be still noted in the annals of history in case a pattern of desperate flailing occurs.

Having revisited the minutes of our last union organizing meeting, I have identified several comrades who I believe are wholly devoted to our grand cause.

LTO: Has made herself a valuable member of this union with quick and intelligent reads
Pooky: A friendly comrade. Pocketed me early, so I must reevaluate in days to come
Dunnstral: While quiet, his words and votes are powerful and strategic
Titus: We may disagree, but she has a strong and confident spirit
Firebringer and Maid Cafe: Veteran union workers alike, whose casual play helps put all our hearts at ease.

I also fervently want to believe that Comrades Ircher and Relativistic Harmony can be trusted, but they have not yet demonstrated enough praxis to enmesh themselves within in my good graces.

Upon Joyboy and lemon.tangerine I have already expressed my doubts. Comrade Bell has also been troublesome to interpret, with actions both noble and base. However, suspicion is edging out. Any of these uncouth hobgoblins I would be happy to drag before a council of peers, as well as those suspiciously absent in discussions or in content.

VOTE: Joyboy
Comrades, upon rereading I find Joyboy's roster of pirates and foes in revolutionary pamphlet #567 alarming. As has been called out by the ever-vigilant Doctor Drew and Lady Terminally Online, it included the absent light_ganski as an ally of Joyboy's under flimsy pretenses. Furthermore, the only two foes on the roster were Bell, a safe accusation at the time, and LTO, who is new to this union and its unique quirks. Joyboy then even says that LTO and Bell, his only two suspects are

not

aligned, meaning their read list only truly has one suspect in the end. I fear this incoherent list represents not Joyboy's true feelings, but was hastily built with ulterior motives. Joyboy is trying to deflect suspicion from away from his capitalistic lust for treasure.

Comrade, can I direct you to look at lemon?

Comrade Tao, I have already looked at lemon extensively, as per my grandiose speech in 318! I concluded that they where subtly undermining our union with their rhetoric. My post included both a vote for him and a delightful pun! I would be happy to vote him again should we convince more of our fellow workers of the world to unite in this cause. But first, I must investigate LTO's argument and Bell's rebuttal. This may take a while, as the combined length of both rivals the seminal work

Das Kapital

Good day comrades! I have begun to catch up with the discussions I missed. Oh, that I could forsake sleep to forever revel in the spirit of the proletariat!

Comrade Bell continues to confound. I am no longer unsure if he is a noble revolutionary or a foul capitalist. While I will vote if necessary, I instead urge one of our union's cunning investigators to observe hia actiona closely during the night, as to truly divine his motives. Indeed, perhaps the second night, as his alleged isolation would render our investigator's hard work moot.

I have had little change of heart towards lemon.tangerine this past day. I see no reaaon to claim abilities in the manner they did unprompted, except to gain credibility with an alleged investigative role. Comrades, I remind all of you that fake claiming is easier than normal due to our suites of abilities.

In the past, I expressed my fervent wish to be able to trust Relativitic Harmony's revolutionary spirit. While my opinion has congealed, my wish did not come true. I am beginnimg to suspect RH to be a blaggart and infiltrator of our great union! I ask of you, noble workers, reread their words with a keen eye, see if you can see what I see

As page 47 heralds a friendly wager, I feel it unsporting to not enter

Spoiler: guess

Lemon, RH, Joyboy, Dr Drew

I'm calling the first post a clear RVS vote. The second post turns it into a serious scum read.



Here at least we have a clear trajectory to the read. But with that said... Here's why these targets fucking suck:


A parity cop's optimal town usage is to use a fairly well known target whose alignment you are nearly positive on, alongside two others. This gives you the most bang for your buck. None of the three names he chose as initial targets are in his "townpool".

What is the optimal MAFIA usage of a parity cop? Hint: Pick two murky towns and one scum and then when that scum flips you have a guaranteed mislim, OR when one of those towns dies anyways, well, now you have your murk-scum "cleared as town".

Here's his town pool. Why did none of these serve as the calibration choice?

LTO: Has made herself a valuable member of this union with quick and intelligent reads
Pooky: A friendly comrade. Pocketed me early, so I must reevaluate in days to come
Dunnstral: While quiet, his words and votes are powerful and strategic
Titus: We may disagree, but she has a strong and confident spirit
Firebringer and Maid Cafe: Veteran union workers alike, whose casual play helps put all our hearts at ease.

Why are the results "surprising" here?

Good morning comrades! I hope that we are all well rested and ready to resume our glorious revolution! Through a combination of meditation, interrogation, and rooting through garbage for suspicious evidence, I believe I have identified several comrades who are, surprisingly, trustworthy

From Laplacian's POV, he has a parity result on three people, none of which he was town reading, but one was NOT in his scum pool, and was in his "nulls" as of this point? Why should it be "surprising" to get a result of Hu Tao town? Hint: Because this is informed guilt and he knows Hu Tao is indeed his partner who he spent day one avoiding talking to or about much.

This entire case hinges on the fact that I didn't immediately spew any minor suspicion I have. I'm only going to effort post if I have actual evidence. Vibes don't merit a huge wordy post, and huge wordy posts were the only way I was posting D1.

And huge fucking lol on complaining about optimal play. You want to nab people for playing suboptimally, let's policy MariaR for the N1 lightning rod fucking up every action.

[Cabd]

I find myself in need of the syryana nodding head gif.


Also proof you haven't been reading the thread because you already know alignments:

You want to nab people for playing suboptimally, let's policy MariaR for the N1 lightning rod fucking up every action.

I feel like everyone got deja vu because I was clear about it.

I'm not lying. There's no reason for me to come into the thread and make up some sort of wild lie like that.

Do I know why Ircher's action went through? No. All I know is I used a lighting rod causing every action to be on Bell. Maybe action order messes with that but shrug.jpg

Can you claim your lightning rod ability again? What modifiers does it have and why did it not show up in watcher results?

All actions go to the person I visit. The only modifier involved is not relevant (as in doesn't matter to the issue at hand) why it did not show up the watcher? your guess is as good as mine.

If you're curious the modifier in question was

compulsive

[Laplacian]

Here at least we have a clear trajectory to the read. But with that said... Here's why these targets fucking suck:


A parity cop's optimal town usage is to use a fairly well known target whose alignment you are nearly positive on, alongside two others. This gives you the most bang for your buck. None of the three names he chose as initial targets are in his "townpool".

What is the optimal MAFIA usage of a parity cop? Hint: Pick two murky towns and one scum and then when that scum flips you have a guaranteed mislim, OR when one of those towns dies anyways, well, now you have your murk-scum "cleared as town".

Here's his town pool. Why did none of these serve as the calibration choice?

LTO: Has made herself a valuable member of this union with quick and intelligent reads
Pooky: A friendly comrade. Pocketed me early, so I must reevaluate in days to come
Dunnstral: While quiet, his words and votes are powerful and strategic
Titus: We may disagree, but she has a strong and confident spirit
Firebringer and Maid Cafe: Veteran union workers alike, whose casual play helps put all our hearts at ease.

Why are the results "surprising" here?

Good morning comrades! I hope that we are all well rested and ready to resume our glorious revolution! Through a combination of meditation, interrogation, and rooting through garbage for suspicious evidence, I believe I have identified several comrades who are, surprisingly, trustworthy

From Laplacian's POV, he has a parity result on three people, none of which he was town reading, but one was NOT in his scum pool, and was in his "nulls" as of this point? Why should it be "surprising" to get a result of Hu Tao town? Hint: Because this is informed guilt and he knows Hu Tao is indeed his partner who he spent day one avoiding talking to or about much.

Your characterization of how the parity cop works is flawed and approaching from the assumption of not-aligned. Let's break this down further. At the end of day 1 we had 16 alive: 3 scum, 13 town. My pool then is 12 town & 3 scum, so if I pick a completely random player I have a 20% chance of hitting scum in general. This means that my selection in the absence of information is:

All scum = 3/15 x 2/14 x 1/13 = 0.002
All town = 12/15 x 11/14 x 10/13 = 0.484
Non-parity = 1 - 0.484 - 0.002 = 0.514
The hero solve of hitting all 3 scum is so low we can discard it for the rest of the analysis. Note that this math is again, in the absence of information, this is essentially our null-hypothesis. I'd then expect my reads to not be complete and utter potato, and so non-parity has a slightly higher option.

Now, I have 2 possible results, let's look at what they are and the implications

A: I get an aligned result. 3 people who I scumleaned are now town cleared! This is so much information, I have 3 people I can fully trust, and almost certainly puts 1 or 2 scum in the 3 other people I didn't choose for this. This is a metric fuckton of information, game half solved, gg. That's why I posted it so enthusiastically, because holy shit I thought we had cleared 3 people until we realized it was Bell, Bell, and Bell all aligned

B: I get a not-aligned result. This guarantees a scum in the pool, which increases the odds of a random person to 33%. This is above the null chance of 20%, a positive gain. But again, this 33% is our base value! By corroborating with other night results, asking questions, and looking at vote patterns, I was also confident we could narrow down that Thunderdome to get the odds of an individual person being scum to that 50% we would have started with.

Now, you're absolutely right that I could have picked one super townie person to give B a 50/50 shot. Or in practice, 45/45/10 since there were no hard clears at the time. However, that weakens the utility of option A and I was confident we could hit the scum in B within 1 or 2 tries. The chance of A and the still strength of B was enticing enough to go for 3 scummy people.

[Laplacian]

I find myself in need of the syryana nodding head gif.


Also proof you haven't been reading the thread because you already know alignments:

You want to nab people for playing suboptimally, let's policy MariaR for the N1 lightning rod fucking up every action.

I feel like everyone got deja vu because I was clear about it.

I'm not lying. There's no reason for me to come into the thread and make up some sort of wild lie like that.

Do I know why Ircher's action went through? No. All I know is I used a lighting rod causing every action to be on Bell. Maybe action order messes with that but shrug.jpg

Can you claim your lightning rod ability again? What modifiers does it have and why did it not show up in watcher results?

All actions go to the person I visit. The only modifier involved is not relevant (as in doesn't matter to the issue at hand) why it did not show up the watcher? your guess is as good as mine.

If you're curious the modifier in question was

compulsive

I fucking know it was compulsive. They could have warned us so every invest results that night didn't get burnt.

[Cabd]

You're wasting time arguing with me, instead of picking out who the final scum is if not you!

We have three elims left. You should be selling me on "where to go when we're wrong on you", no?

[HolySpiritTurtle]

[/quote]

Wow you're scumclaiming

[HolySpiritTurtle]

Wow you're scumclaiming

[Cabd]

zero for two, nerd.

[Cabd]

But while you're here, please do weigh in on the laplacian-cabd slap-fight!

[HolySpiritTurtle]

You get to wait 3.5 hours. D&D.

[Cabd]

You get to wait 3.5 hours. D&D.

The real final scum was the dungeon and the dragon all along.

[Laplacian]

You're wasting time arguing with me, instead of picking out who the final scum is if not you!

We have three elims left. You should be selling me on "where to go when we're wrong on you", no?

I'm arguing with you because everyone can see these posts and go "oh, that does make sense" even if you're enjoying your tunnel.

Last scum is Drew. Your own post in 4122 gives town support for everyone except he and I, and I broadly agree with the list. Also notice that as soon as I post last night he immediately starts trying to punch holes in my targeting and distracting with 3P speculation. He sees that I'm back, am the next on the least-towny list, and was trying to grab one extra day.

[Cabd]

So you're 100% fine with you into Drew?

[Laplacian]

I'm 100% fine with Drew into me. That way we can get that 4 for 4 clean vote sweep.

[Laplacian]

And let's make that 4/4 sweep a reality!
VOTE: Doctor Drew