Mini Normal 2329: complex. [game over!]

[Random Nurse]

also still think a notascum scumflip would substantially implicate davesaz

Based on what?

[Psyche]

Where exactly in NAS's five posts does he weigh heavier on the scales than Naerys or Hu?

I want you to explicitly state where and why.

ive done this so many times

it's this post:

I'm so confident Naerys flips scum this game. Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow. I agree with this.

VOTE: hu tao

She's contradicting herself. She does this as scum. She literally I'd saying the thing she did as town last game is now scummy when I do it.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Self-voting

VOTE: Hu Tao

for these reasons:

the page provides an entire system for classifying self-votes and explains in detail how each type of self vote could come from scum

or

from town.

then the only sentence from which it can be gleaned that anyone thinks self-voting is a scumtell is:
"While this practice is commonly seen as scum-indicative, no data has been compiled on the actual effectiveness of self-voting as a towntell or a scumtell."
this is arguably the most disapproving way that a writer could conceivably share that information without openly abandoning wikipedia's editorial guidelines

but someone clinging to the mafia wiki for dear life took the exact opposite message home?
it does not pass the smell test

that are elaborated on in other posts. and notascum has absolutely floundered in his attempts to engage w/ all this

[davesaz]

Naerys ATEs (appeals to emotion for the newer players) when pushed as either alignment, but there may be a difference in how she does it.
Sometimes it isn't necessary to have detailed meta to tell the difference. I agree with RN, disengaging or avoiding the confrontation is more likely to mean she's scum even without the meta.

Hu Tao is similar in that respect, though in her case this game I'm looking at whether she's broadly considering the whole player list or narrowly focused on one of her antagonists.

I don't think either one would be easy to push through. Definitely not LHF, despite appearances from the self votes.

[Random Nurse]

Where exactly in NAS's five posts does he weigh heavier on the scales than Naerys or Hu?

I want you to explicitly state where and why.

ive done this so many times

it's this post:

I'm so confident Naerys flips scum this game. Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow. I agree with this.

VOTE: hu tao

She's contradicting herself. She does this as scum. She literally I'd saying the thing she did as town last game is now scummy when I do it.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Self-voting

VOTE: Hu Tao

for these reasons:

the page provides an entire system for classifying self-votes and explains in detail how each type of self vote could come from scum

or

from town.

then the only sentence from which it can be gleaned that anyone thinks self-voting is a scumtell is:
"While this practice is commonly seen as scum-indicative, no data has been compiled on the actual effectiveness of self-voting as a towntell or a scumtell."
this is arguably the most disapproving way that a writer could conceivably share that information without openly abandoning wikipedia's editorial guidelines

but someone clinging to the mafia wiki for dear life took the exact opposite message home?
it does not pass the smell test

that are elaborated on in other posts. and notascum has absolutely floundered in his attempts to engage w/ all this

How does that make him Scum?

He could just be Town without a peer-reviewed source you agree with.

[Psyche]

what is your answer to the question i asked a while ago:
why do you think notascum voted hu tao in post #183?

because i don't think the explanation he actually gave in #183 passes muster. furthermore, he has repeatedly updated his explanation for this vote every time he's been asked to provide clarification.

[davesaz]

also still think a notascum scumflip would substantially implicate davesaz

Do you have any concept of having a policy that 5 posts are not enough information to determine alignment no matter what the posts say?

[Random Nurse]

Naerys ATEs (appeals to emotion for the newer players) when pushed as either alignment, but there may be a difference in how she does it.
Sometimes it isn't necessary to have detailed meta to tell the difference. I agree with RN, disengaging or avoiding the confrontation is more likely to mean she's scum even without the meta.

Hu Tao is similar in that respect, though in her case this game I'm looking at whether she's broadly considering the whole player list or narrowly focused on one of her antagonists.

I don't think either one would be easy to push through. Definitely not LHF, despite appearances from the self votes.

+1 for being reasonable.

-1 for triggering my paranoia in regards to pocketing me.

[Psyche]

How does that make him Scum?

He could just be Town without a peer-reviewed source you agree with.

you're misunderstanding my point
it's not the pulling out the wiki and using it to justify a vote that's scummy
it's the fact that the wiki doesn't actually justify the vote!
the wiki all but condemns the idea of treating self-votes as scummy

the key implication of all this is that

he did not come around to his vote on hu tao for the reasons he originally gave us

[KayJayQueue]

Naerys ATEs (appeals to emotion for the newer players) when pushed as either alignment, but there may be a difference in how she does it.
Sometimes it isn't necessary to have detailed meta to tell the difference. I agree with RN, disengaging or avoiding the confrontation is more likely to mean she's scum even without the meta.

Hu Tao is similar in that respect, though in her case this game I'm looking at whether she's broadly considering the whole player list or narrowly focused on one of her antagonists.

I don't think either one would be easy to push through. Definitely not LHF, despite appearances from the self votes.

I really appreciate this post, thank you.

[Random Nurse]

what is your answer to the question i asked a while ago:
why do you think notascum voted hu tao in post #183?

because i don't think the explanation he actually gave in #183 passes muster. furthermore, he has repeatedly updated his explanation for this vote every time he's been asked to provide clarification.

Lemme take a look again.

[Political Clout]

VOTE: psyche

[Random Nurse]

How does that make him Scum?

He could just be Town without a peer-reviewed source you agree with.

you're misunderstanding my point
it's not the pulling out the wiki and using it to justify a vote that's scummy
it's the fact that the wiki doesn't actually justify the vote!
the wiki all but condemns the idea of treating self-votes as scummy

the key implication of all this is that

he did not come around to his vote on hu tao for the reasons he originally gave us

Maybe he misread or misunderstood it.

You can be wrong and still Town.

I'd like to hear NAS clarify this.

[Psyche]

also still think a notascum scumflip would substantially implicate davesaz

Do you have any concept of having a policy that 5 posts are not enough information to determine alignment no matter what the posts say?

i guess. it's a bad policy though, and a cop-out to the question at this point: why do you think notascum voted for hu tao?

[Psyche]

nas has "clarified" this at least twice at this point

[Psyche]

"i misread the wiki" is an explanation he has already opted against

[Klick]

LHF is low hanging fruit, ie easy targets.

naeyrs is the low hanging fruit. or maybe hu tao. either of the self-voters are hanging pretty low

I don't consider either to be LHF, especially Hu. Naerys, when Town, does engage when sufficiently motivated.

Were you there when Scum Hu CC'd the Cop that had a guilty on her and got him launched? That's not the definition of LHF, period. Competent Scum could very easily dangle a self-vote filly knowing that ain't going nowhere.

Right but you're going to say this about anything Hu Tao says because you're paranoid of her scum play
In the 75% chance that she's town you've got to find a way to identify that

She

could

do some weird self-vote play here as scum, but if she were scum she

would

choose to do otherwise because she's competent

[Random Nurse]

I'm so confident Naerys flips scum this game. Eliminate me and vote her out tomorrow. I agree with this.

VOTE: hu tao

She's contradicting herself. She does this as scum. She literally I'd saying the thing she did as town last game is now scummy when I do it.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Self-voting

VOTE: Hu Tao

Could you please explain why you voted for Hu Tao at this point, NAS?

[davesaz]

-1 for triggering my paranoia in regards to pocketing me.

Not sure how to react to an IC being worried about being pocketed.

NGL, last game I was in that had a virtual IC (Meuh who was "cleared" in the cop game), I berated the IC for having no opinions, and the rest of the playerlist for sheeping them.

[Dannflor]

VOTE: psyche

why

[Political Clout]

Is the next 10 pages also going to be about hu tao and nearys I still think they're both town.

[Political Clout]

VOTE: psyche

why

You think I'm wrong?

[davesaz]

She could do some weird self-vote play here as scum, but if she were scum she would choose to do otherwise because she's competent

Unless you follow this to the next level of WIFOM, where as scum we'd think she would choose to do otherwise so she does it anyway.

[Psyche]

No idea what this means

It's explained in the wiki article. It's a common scumtell.

Seen plenty of dramatic townies to self vote, including myself

Which is why self-voting alone isn't enough to gauge anyone's scuminess. But Hu Tao jumped on the RN wagon, that is another tell.

Can you tell me what you gathered from that link?

Just that it's a common scumtell that has to be combined with other scumtells before reaching any conclusion.

also i want to underscore how unbelievable it should be for someone treating the wiki like a scumhunting bible to then completely miss its central theme!
someone that attached to the wiki as a guidepost should not then also be capable of so stridently misreading every word in a page they link from it!

[Klick]

She could do some weird self-vote play here as scum, but if she were scum she would choose to do otherwise because she's competent

Unless you follow this to the next level of WIFOM, where as scum we'd think she would choose to do otherwise so she does it anyway.

And then you continue on ad infinitum to the Nash equilibrium where it's still quite unlikely she chooses to self-vote like this

Or, more accurately, you ignore WIFOM paranoia entirely and make a judgement on how someone would be likely to behave based on the information available.

[Psyche]

we are led in post #84 to believe that notascum saw hu tao's post, looked up self-voting on the mafiascum, and then based on his studies decided that he now had enough to justify a vote he still has laid down.
can you really look at this wiki right here and tell me that this is a likely story?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Self-voting