Mini 2332: A Mid-scummer Nights Dream II | GG

[Sunflower]

hi it's me Jupiter and I'm phone posting which is really annoying but it has the benefit of autocorrect
I'm the less cool member of this hydra and my signoff is

[Sunflower]

won't be on much today, wifi issues, fire will probably be posting in my absence

[Sunflower]

i've heard i talk in my sleep
but my voice is too weak
to hear the words i say
and i've been trying like hell
to wake myself up
but dreams fall hard today

[Sunflower]

i wanna vote for the car seat one for obvious reasons

[Sunflower]

wow hydras are great i can just talk to jupiter instead of y'all. why have i never done this before

see you nerds when we're actually in a day phase

[Sunflower]

HIII ITS JUPITER
oops caps
will have access to MS for like the next five minutes, still phoneposting. ill try to read up now !!!

[Sunflower]

wow hydras are great i can just talk to jupiter instead of y'all. why have i never done this before

see you nerds when we're actually in a day phase

yesssss talk to me im so cool

[Sunflower]

im bad at mech but i think i agree with the people saying that we shouldn't vote for the slide

[Sunflower]

gut says car seat is ominous

[Sunflower]

LETS GO PAGETOP

[Sunflower]

gut says car seat is ominous

like idk to me it seems... too obvious?

[Sunflower]

HIII ITS JUPITER
oops caps
will have access to MS for like the next five minutes, still phoneposting. ill try to read up now !!!

HI JUPITER

~B

HI BLACK!!!!

[Sunflower]

ydra probtown btw

[Sunflower]

plurality is multiple people being elim'd right

[Sunflower]

ok sorry im confused by the "early choice" talk. aren't the ones that aren't voted for discarded?

[Sunflower]

I just finished a game with scum Gimli and he was trying very hard to pocket basically the entire playerlist (and succeeding in no small degree), but not really solving. Here I can feel that he wants to solve. The difference is day and night. I am simply going to treat Gimli as mod-confirmed town.

what were you hoping to get out of people's reactions to this and did you learn anything

[Sunflower]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Sunflower]

just seemed like a weird thing to post immediately after gimli had a kind of awkward pocketing-style interaction with kyoko

[Sunflower]

This doesn't have anything to do with alignment but seeing "townpilled" and "mafpilled" convinces me that I need to be wheeled into the nursing home. I can see clearly the culture that led to this moment, and I understand that it evolved to leave me far behind.

this post is based and townpilled

[Sunflower]

hi, here, just letting everyone know that I have no idea what "townpilled" means and for this entire phase fire is the only one who's gonna be solving, i'll just sit around and look pretty

[Sunflower]

i have to go soon but i wanna follow up on the thought about the car seat since my time was tragically cut short -

[Sunflower]

re:prism i was surprised at how appeasing/understanding his answer was to me but i just thought "oh how nice that makes sense maybe he's town" and then had zero thoughts past that

how easily i fall for such things

[Sunflower]

i think his making confident reads off very limited and incomplete meta understanding, and the self-absorbed way that he interpreted gimli's entrance, both are pretty towny from him though so eh

[Sunflower]

let's all just agree that everyone is playing very different than usual this game and we can ignore meta completely

[Sunflower]

unshackle yourselves from the burden of past expectations and past lives. forget everything you knew. release the weight from your shoulders. join me and together we can experience mafia in its purest form. no past. no future. only dreams.

[Sunflower]

i think his making confident reads off very limited and incomplete meta understanding, and the self-absorbed way that he interpreted gimli's entrance, both are pretty towny from him though so eh

Why do you think the meta stuff is townie? It seems like an easy read for scum to make. When given pushback on the read they can just say "it's just how I feel" and keep the fake read going

~B

it feels like the way his brain works as town

he does do exactly what you describe as scum on early confident reads, but i haven't really seen him take this specific brand of approach. and i don't think it's that useful to bc it's bad process which will draw attention, and not very convincing to anyone

[Sunflower]

user catgirl i have no thoughts on klick. on kyoko i thought the bit about reading alignment into people's guesses as to what the dreams mean felt a little forced, but not really a strong feeling

[Sunflower]

Disagreeing with me isn't wrong or anything

i disagree

[Sunflower]

i initially thought the read seemed so backwards that it must be him fishing for reactions by saying something obviously untrue to see who noticed

but i think that his thought process of "i jokingly called gimli town and he ignored me and so therefore he isn't trying to pocket me and so therefore he's trying to solve me and so therefore he's town" is like such a patented dragoneater brain thought pattern that it seems more believable to me

[Sunflower]

i feel like the gimli meta vs not meta argument has reached the end of its usefulness

[Sunflower]

is this dunn or GiF speaking

[Sunflower]

i don't know why i asked it's clearly dunn

[Sunflower]

it's fine to have a read on it, but im not sure what more you're hoping to get out of prodding about it. but if you didn't see 190 then fair enough ig

[Sunflower]

i don't townread prism. hope this helps

[Sunflower]

ydra probtown btw

This probably could use some explanation, cos I don't see it.
And I'm the person who just throws townread left and right.

vibes

[Sunflower]

HI ITS ME JUPITER will catch up in a bit. after i figure out how to fucking load drafts because i am not living the high life rn. wifi's back on but i gotta sleep in like 30 mins -

[Sunflower]

i figured it out we stay winning

[Sunflower]

gut says car seat is ominous

like idk to me it seems... too obvious?

if we assume all the dream powers are similar to the slide dream (as in, having some correlation to the name) such as the slide dream extending day, it seems like such a good dream to vote in because it seems like a protective. but it's like ominous as fuck because it's like. idk it seems too easy. i don't think we'd be given something like that so early.
also re: the whole slide thing it could probably just be a total 180 and follow the other part of the dream: that the speaker is 30 years old and literally does not need a car seat. like they're designed for children, not adults. and also car airbags.

tbh i'm coming up with a lot of silly reasons to justify something that is mostly gut but i don't think we're going to vote car seat. unless fire wins a pokemon battle against me. which he won't. btw. i will literally build a team for gen9 (which i am mostly unfamiliar with due to playing competitive in mostly gens8 and 5) over this.

[Sunflower]

OKOKO TIME TO READ

[Sunflower]

i just had brilliant thoughts and i had to talk about them you know how it is w me

[Sunflower]

Ok maybe I will just play mafia all day. But I absolutely have to go in like an hour or else I'm a bad friend

I'm a little jealous that Jupiter and fire get to talk to each other and Drew is probably off drinking whiskey somewhere

~B

LOLLL
tbf i was basically MIA the entire day today due to lack of tech but fire was such a real one through all of this. o7 fire

[Sunflower]

Someone has had a revelation!

This slide never seems to end...

It's a water slide! It goes on and on and on! What's not to like?

---

The day deadline is extended by 3 days. All players become loved, negating the first two votes on them. At deadline, if no elimination has been achieved, there is a plurality elimination instead. Ties in plurality are resolved by the

Bad Dream

team's selection in twilight.

Every single negative consequence of this dream can be negated by us just all agreeing that it should be negated and playing accordingly. (Assuming we all agree that the impact of these is negative)

We agree that we're ending the day by the usual deadline. We also agree that when someone reaches majority, we collapse onto them regardless of our reads.

I think this dream is neutral in earlier days, and negative-utility as we approach ELo. Which probably makes it a good early choice

Wow is this going to be the first time that I vote Klick and it's NOT a reaction test? Cool cool!

VOTE: Klickity Klick

i don't think klick is wrong, though? fire informed me what plurality-elims were, and it really doesn't seem all that bad. if this dream is selected, which it probably won't, playing around the "detriments" (isn't a day extension a good thing????) isn't that hard to do.

[Sunflower]

hi, here, just letting everyone know that I have no idea what "townpilled" means and for this entire phase fire is the only one who's gonna be solving, i'll just sit around and look pretty

SAME

we can look pretty together

~B

i would be very happy to look pretty with you, black

[Sunflower]

also fire isn't here (im so lonely wahhhh) so i'm gonna spam thread

[Sunflower]

i think his making confident reads off very limited and incomplete meta understanding, and the self-absorbed way that he interpreted gimli's entrance, both are pretty towny from him though so eh

i did already say this to fire, but i did once read a dragon game from a long time ago (he replaced out, it was a Grand Idea game and it was honestly kind of hard for me to follow) but what i've noticed is that town dragon like, expects people to think he's town also? i'm not sure how accurate this is since that was a PR game for him but also everyone was PRs there. i don't have a very good recollection of it though loll

[Sunflower]

hi, here, just letting everyone know that I have no idea what "townpilled" means and for this entire phase fire is the only one who's gonna be solving, i'll just sit around and look pretty

SAME

we can look pretty together

~B

i would be very happy to look pretty with you, black

Wait, I can't look pretty as well?

-Drew

we can all look pretty together

[Sunflower]

i think his making confident reads off very limited and incomplete meta understanding, and the self-absorbed way that he interpreted gimli's entrance, both are pretty towny from him though so eh

i did already say this to fire, but i did once read a dragon game from a long time ago (he replaced out, it was a Grand Idea game and it was honestly kind of hard for me to follow) but what i've noticed is that town dragon like, expects people to think he's town also? i'm not sure how accurate this is since that was a PR game for him but also everyone was PRs there. i don't have a very good recollection of it though loll

like prism points out that he didn't expect people to suspect him. frankly I wasn't really paying attention to anything until after page five but i'm pretty sure dragon not expecting suspicion is like in line

[Sunflower]

Ok here is my first dumbtell of the game, I thought the slide took effect today.....didn't realize we could still choose it lol

And I do agree with Klick's assessment on how to use it

-Drew

NAH THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED TO ME, I DMED FIRE IN PANIC BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO GO ALL ??? IN THREAD AND MAKE MYSELF LOOK DUMB

[Sunflower]

n then fire was like "it just got publicly revealed i don't think three people voted for the slide" and i was like phewww

[Sunflower]

User Sunflower what do you think about users Kyoko and Klick

hi! i know this wasn't directed towards me but uhh. ok so kyoko posted. i didn't even know they were in the game but i saw them and they slapped me back to my danganronpa phase. which i barely escaped. i got like. the flashbacks. but also kirigiri best girl. tbh i don't remember much about their posting, just that they had a kirigiri avatar.
i think i like klick's posting so far. i don't remember any posts they made asides from the one on the slider though

[Sunflower]

Ok here is my first dumbtell of the game, I thought the slide took effect today.....didn't realize we could still choose it lol

And I do agree with Klick's assessment on how to use it

-Drew

NAH THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED TO ME, I DMED FIRE IN PANIC BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO GO ALL ??? IN THREAD AND MAKE MYSELF LOOK DUMB

I will look dumb for both of us haha

-Drew

IOSODUGOUUUUUAGGGHHH YOU STOLE MY PAGETOP

[Sunflower]

AAUUGHHHHH

[Sunflower]

I-I disagree with a lot of the thread but am unaware of how to have a conversation about it that I think would be productive ngh.

this caught me so off guard
btw gonna rush rest of my catchup im under a time limit. this is just like that time from yttd wh *gets shot*

[Sunflower]

actually there's like quite a few time limits in yttd aren't there???

[Sunflower]

i haven't played it at all for a hot minute. the last time i touched it was to flex my ytts island mode skills and then i returned to it recently and i was so bad at it.

[Sunflower]

augh pain and agony

[Sunflower]

SORRY THIS IS SO NONTOPICAL

[Sunflower]

i'm town that's why

i think this style of posting looks good early and gets more and more ugly the later we get into the game. so townread for now

[Sunflower]

fire is kinda based on ydrasse

[Sunflower]

otherwise i'm completely caught up
kind of tempted to be a little silly and edit those mosaic pixel sunglasses onto basil & sunny (the characters in our profile picture) but i dunno how that'd slide

[Sunflower]

FUCK IT WE BALL

[Sunflower]

[Sunflower]

How dare they taint that omori pfp with those shades.

im removing it dw

[Sunflower]

Can I assume most of your posts have been Maria?

alisae was here for a bit in the middle

[Sunflower]

I'm unexpectedly restless.

hi

any reads you wanna talk about aside from dragon

[Sunflower]

sort of im sleepy whats up

[Sunflower]

at the time i landed on a little south of null but im leaning more town after recent posts

i have some thoughts about prism but i don't think they're important right now

[Sunflower]

what is forming your expectations for town!me?

[Sunflower]

How dare they taint that omori pfp with those shades.

im removing it dw

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Sunflower]

BOOOOO TOMATO TOMATO TOMATO
oh hi black!

[Sunflower]

User Sunflower what do you think about users Kyoko and Klick

hi! i know this wasn't directed towards me but uhh. ok so kyoko posted. i didn't even know they were in the game but i saw them and they slapped me back to my danganronpa phase. which i barely escaped. i got like. the flashbacks. but also kirigiri best girl. tbh i don't remember much about their posting, just that they had a kirigiri avatar.
i think i like klick's posting so far. i don't remember any posts they made asides from the one on the slider though

Chiaki best girl

i can respect that actually, sdr2 was my favorite game. i really love and hate komaeda

[Sunflower]

isn't the brazen overflowing confidence a towny thing? isn't it towny specifically for DE?

no, it isn't

this feels a little narrative-pushy

[Sunflower]

i don't think klick is wrong, though? fire informed me what plurality-elims were, and it really doesn't seem all that bad. if this dream is selected, which it probably won't, playing around the "detriments" (isn't a day extension a good thing????) isn't that hard to do.

I never really said he was wrong, the vote was for something else.

then what was it for

[Sunflower]

I'm 30 years old, why do I still need a car seat? Still think it sounds like a protective thing.

i disagree

[Sunflower]

btw speaking of car seat me and fire are actively fighting it out right now

[Sunflower]

I really don't think we should do car seat imo

[Sunflower]

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle ... 2077812164
come watch

[Sunflower]

wait is the link allowed

[Sunflower]

also pagetop

[Sunflower]

i don't know if we're choosing slide or not but i think that if it is chosen that it really isn't that bad

[Sunflower]

i don't know if we're choosing slide or not but i think that if it is chosen that it really isn't that bad

have you read setup with attention?

explain to me where I'm wrong.

i don't think i ever said you were wrong

[Sunflower]

literally said that i didn't know if we were voting for slide or not btw

[Sunflower]

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle ... 2077812164
come watch

:SUNNY: I WON!!!!

[Sunflower]

we're not voting for slide

also i got destroyed in pokemon so ig we're not doing car seat

[Sunflower]

Sheep with fur and horns

imprettyu sure rams have horns btw

[Sunflower]

alright me and fire discussed what we want to vote on and we decided to go for sheeple, dial, and vi

[Sunflower]

gimli's read on dragon is pretty interesting tbh

[Sunflower]

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle ... 2077812164
come watch

Do NOT link to ANY external medium, especially one that allows comments on a temporary basis, EVER. The next time this occurs we will be locking the game thread and you will be awaiting a modkill.

sorry sorry sorry (

[Sunflower]

not feeling well might not be talkative for a bit

[Sunflower]

augh sorry i'm here now

[Sunflower]

anyone looking to uh
change their vote on car seat

[Sunflower]

pagetop

[Sunflower]

anyone looking to uh
change their vote on car seat

why would I do such a thing

i mean you're not voting car seat you can keep it that way

[Sunflower]

unless you want to vote car seat or something
i don't know, i certainly don't want to vote car seat so i want people who are voting car seat to stop

[Sunflower]

are you saying you know that it is explicitly bad?

i've never said it's explicitly bad but it gives me an incredibly bad gut feeling, i've gone over this before

[Sunflower]

like idk it could be helpful. fire doesn't agree with me on this but i really don't think voting car seat in is a good idea

[Sunflower]

so its based on nothing
got it

people who think it's a protective also have that idea based on nothing

[Sunflower]

:Sunny: im gonan find the psot i amde on it

[Sunflower]

so its based on nothing
got it

people who think it's a protective also have that idea based on nothing

thank god I don't think it's a protective or anything then

what do u think it is then

[Sunflower]

this conversation is really hard to follow lmao

[Sunflower]

gut says car seat is ominous

like idk to me it seems... too obvious?

if we assume all the dream powers are similar to the slide dream (as in, having some correlation to the name) such as the slide dream extending day, it seems like such a good dream to vote in because it seems like a protective. but it's like ominous as fuck because it's like. idk it seems too easy. i don't think we'd be given something like that so early.
also re: the whole slide thing it could probably just be a total 180 and follow the other part of the dream: that the speaker is 30 years old and literally does not need a car seat. like they're designed for children, not adults. and also car airbags.

tbh i'm coming up with a lot of silly reasons to justify something that is mostly gut but i don't think we're going to vote car seat. unless fire wins a pokemon battle against me. which he won't. btw. i will literally build a team for gen9 (which i am mostly unfamiliar with due to playing competitive in mostly gens8 and 5) over this.

also idk it seems a bit like a roleblock to me

[Sunflower]

okok my gut is actually pretty good though, trust

[Sunflower]

ur mum

VOTE: Catgirl Chipotle

[Sunflower]

Why does anyone think a car seat is protective? I'm kinda confused by that

FOR REAL

[Sunflower]

dragon, whatre you voting for?

[Sunflower]

A car seat is literally a safety device for children.

not for grown adults

[Sunflower]

See that's where having English as a first language could be useful.

whats your first language?

[Sunflower]

See that's where having English as a first language could be useful.

whats your first language?

Ask Black! She knows.

Or just look in my GTKAS, it's splattered all over the first page.

Or I guess I could tell you myself but where's the fun in that.

I'll tell you if the other two methods don't succeed.

ooo is it hebrew

[Sunflower]

Yes!

yayy

[Sunflower]

Yes!

yayy

Good job buddy

(I almost said little buddy. Would that be insulting if I said little buddy?)

no, to me it's like playing undertale and being called "child" - fairly true and pretty amusing.
that being said how tall are you

[Sunflower]

Ydrasse gives me that town feeling

based

[Sunflower]

I'm pretty sure I'm shorter than you (not going to give my actual height)

But anyway I was referring to age, little buddy.

its ok if you're shorter than me
now i have to come up with an age-related nickname for you an dits not gonna be old geezer

[Sunflower]

FUCK

[Sunflower]

me when the pagetop isn't pagetopping

[Sunflower]

I'm pretty sure I'm shorter than you (not going to give my actual height)

But anyway I was referring to age, little buddy.

its ok if you're shorter than me
now i have to come up with an age-related nickname for you an dits not gonna be old geezer

What's the nickname?

i'm still thinking

[Sunflower]

Wow I promised to not talk about Klick's scumread of me and let him cook but tbh I'm annoyed that Klick is working together with Gimli who has townlocked me while still scumreading me. Like it just doesn't sit right. Both socially I'm kinda feeling as if someone is making me third wheel by stealing my bestie (idk if anyone is going to understand this but have you ever felt third wheel to your bestie + some random acquaintance which your bestie likes or something? This is it), but also if Klick feels Gimli is someone to work with then he should be concerned with Gimli's read on me because that's something that's central to his reads this game, and ignoring it is weird from a perspective of "town wants to have correct reads and wants other town to also have correct reads". Also I'm annoyed because Klick ostensibly thinks I am scummy (or at least wrong) for townreading Gimli and yet he townreads him?

But I am NOT asking Klick to talk about his read of me because I KNOW that Klick, being a good enough town player, will end up TRing me. If he doesn't TR me by the end of Day 2 I guess we can yeet him for being scum with bad reads. So for now I will just post this one time complaint and then just act as if I am already being townread by Klick and continue working with him and Gimli to solve the game. I mean that townread is inevitable either way.

Also Prism, you are WELCOME for this self-conscious, scummy, unproductive post. Feel FREE to attack it. Nobody else is allowed to attack it though because all the rest should know better than to think I post this as scum.

i completely MISSED THIS?

[Sunflower]

this is
yeah i think this is town dragon

[Sunflower]

- jupiter

[Sunflower]

this is
yeah i think this is town dragon

- jupiter

Have you even read any of my games?

Yes

[Sunflower]

i think his making confident reads off very limited and incomplete meta understanding, and the self-absorbed way that he interpreted gimli's entrance, both are pretty towny from him though so eh

i did already say this to fire, but i did once read a dragon game from a long time ago (he replaced out, it was a Grand Idea game and it was honestly kind of hard for me to follow) but what i've noticed is that town dragon like, expects people to think he's town also? i'm not sure how accurate this is since that was a PR game for him but also everyone was PRs there. i don't have a very good recollection of it though loll

like prism points out that he didn't expect people to suspect him. frankly I wasn't really paying attention to anything until after page five but i'm pretty sure dragon not expecting suspicion is like in line

[Sunflower]

aureal response feels towny

[Sunflower]

Most people don't expect scumreads. You missed both of the points here.

First, Dragon bristles against disagreement and is quick to read bad faith into it. Exhibit A, B, and C. He didn't start doing this here until I pointed out the absence. Instead he was nervously acquiescent.

Frankly, I'm grateful that Dragon accepted my refusal to back-and-forth, but it surprised me because he's usually more of a hound.

Second, and this is more speculative, is that Dragon knows his meta as far as early townreads go. Hypothetically, the townread on Gimli would be keeping in line with it. When I say he didn't expect the skepticism, I mean that some of the nerves/meta break in #1 is because he expected the "Typical Dragon town" lines to roll in, not Black's grilling.

Two separate points you might have missed: Dragon normally pressures more early, didn't happen here, and his reaction to Black still reads as awkwardly adjusting on the fly based off what gets townread and what doesn't.

for the record, i wasn't intending to misinterpret anything you said; in fact, i hadn't actually paid attention to anything going on. this was just a post i made based off a brief skim- i'm sure fire probably has a better argument here.

[Sunflower]

idk you said that i missed some points and i wanted to clarify that i didn't really read anything you said to begin with

[Sunflower]

when i actually read the thread i can get back to you on that but for now there's really not much i can do about this whole DE thing, it was a read fire had proposed to me and i agreed with it

[Sunflower]

yooo pagetop

[Sunflower]

VOTE: ActionDan

[Sunflower]

some thoughts

- me and jupiter will mostly be solving with each other this phase and posting more condensed thoughts. jupiter says sorry for the pagetop post. since everyone is going to be limited in their posting i would recommend that people use their vote more actively than they otherwise would. we're not going to get much out of engagement or real time sorting this phase, but we should definitely have wagons and movement on them.

- hu tao my impression is they tend to have a decent mechanical understanding and interest as town so their confusion here does feel kinda performative. i don't really think this game is that complicated so far, at least for town? but the way the votes have piled on there specifically when i think there's several other equally low-info-nullscum-ish options felt a little strange to me so i think having alternative wagons here is good

- gimli's posting still feels really sketchy to me. jupiter doesn't agree as much with this one but i read a lot of gimli when trying to sort him in hollow knight and i think as scum he has this way of framing his arguments where it feels like he's appealing to a crowd and trying to convince people rather than genuinely solving. his approach to dragon looks way closer to building allies than sorting. the whole thing about the slide was over the top as well

- some potentially hot take townleans are aureal and ydra. i remember thinking aureal was pretty scummy when i played with town!her in scarfolk, but eventually i think i came to an understanding of her style and i think the response to dragon feels distinctly like town!her, and doesn't feel like a route she'd take as scum. ydra the slide thing just feels like she's having fun in a way that is very town!ydra energy and i think as scum especially lately theres always been a little bit of straining in her posts to get into a certain position. i did misread her in the MU game we played (sadness and agony) but this feels different, and jupiter also gut townread her early.

- i think the consensus on catgirls as town is a little early bc i think scum!alisae played stubbornly around mech in warrior cats and both are very good scum players. but i like both of their approaches so far and i think of the stronger voices in the game i feel most inclined towards wanting to follow them for now. jupiter townreads them more strongly.

- jupiter has gotten some gut scumpings from a few black posts but i don't really see it. it partly came from the early dragon read i think, but personally i think the way she let up on that and re-evaled felt more like solving. overall nullish.

- actiondan ive only seen as scum before but the approach of bursts of catchups with some kinda busy work replies to early posts, then periods of silence, feels very similar. and he's definitely capable of and willing to fake the self-righteous tone. skimming some town games it feels like he's usually much more engaged in prodding at things rather than reacting to them. here there isn't much of anything proactive -- he gets to a point where he's "settled his balances" of catching up and replying to any direct questions, and then doesn't do anything more. i would be interested to know why prism has him near the top of her townreads.

[Sunflower]

hi this is a collaborative post. sorry that it's kind of a mess. jupiter is gonna be mad that i am posting this as one post away from a pagetop but he's in posting jail and can't stop me. this is his punishment

~~~

this is a foreword from jupiter. look at this little baby.
this is actually me. when you hurt me this is who u are hurting

ummmm hi sorry for the pagetop post and the other things- i’m naturally a stream-of-consciousness poster so i post things as i think of them. in my defense i didnt think the pagetop post would be considered as a content post since i skimmed the warnings the mods gave us at the beginning of the day and honestly i didnt think three posts would be that bad ( side eye) but i guess they are so i’m sorry about that. i will try to be less annoying but i am not sure if that is possible
this is the only post i will write since i’m stuck in no-posting jail ( where you belong. jail for one thousand years.), which is probably for the better, and i will go back to spamming thread when we’re done with this horrible fucked up day phase
and i will read the first five pages. eventually. if i make another post ill talk about it




ok so i’m gonna talk about my reads in more depth.
i think prism and hu tao are partenered. idk why i feel this way. i just feel like they are. they’re probably both scum
and i used to think black and dragon could’ve been partnered but fire thinks it’s dumb ( sorry)
ravens, klick, and kyoko kind of feel like radio silence null reads to me. i liked klick at first but then they disappeared off the face of the earth. hu tao, ydrasse feel like white noise to me

tbh i dont tryust myself to talk about reads, i forgot 50% of these people existed. w

on individual players for the record most of these are gut
→ catgirls is super town to me tbh. i think the way they post is very good and i really like it it feels like they are getting into this. i dunno how to reallyu read hydras esp because they dont sign but i liked the stuff
→ i initially townread ydra but tbh i think i don’t like it as much anymore. as i said earlier on her behavior came off as more towny to me but the longer it goes on the worse it looks, and i think that still applies. no fucking clue why fire townreads them tho. ( vibes are hard to explain but they're there imo) null.
→ i really dislike hu tao for the same reasons. the play here is kind of bad. partnered with prism, more likely scum ( i don't really think prism treats a partner like this but i agree the handling is kind of weird) ( i don’t know prism but i think this partnered)
btw hu tao, why do you scumread us and catgirls
→ btw when i played genshin i literally used so much primogems up, got to 87 pulls and lost 50/50 to diluc and then in my next one-pull i got hu tao. ( lmao nice) one of the most memorable and most frustrating gaming experiences of all time.
→ conflicted on the gimli spot- i scumread them earlier and then it looped randomly back around toa townread and now gimli is sitting at tnull. fire doesnt like gimli so i think i will sheep fire
→ had a really strong bad gutread on black in particular. i’m not sure what specifically caused it beyond some things i saw about dragon but it was mostly in the dream-voting phase and has mostly disappeared now, i think i’m willing to drop her into the townbin. i think drew was okayish though
→ do people actually townread actiondan i saw one post from them that i didnt get and forgot about their slot forever for the rest of time. fire cased him i think i agree with it ( let's go!!)
→ i dont likeprism. i dont know how i townread her initially. rancid vibes dude. rancid. rancid scum vibes. i dont like one bit of it.
→ dragon town
→ i forgot about aureal what did she even do lol


okkk thats all, fire’s gonna be talking about the stuff he wants to talk about now. i hate this. free me from no posting jail please ( no. stay) ( BOOO TOMATO TOMATO TOMATO TOMATO BOOOOOOO) augh

*takes 1d6 psychic damage* ough *the dice keeps rolling* *i am taking perpetual psychic damage* * please let me psot one liners again i miss them…… *

~~~~

ok hi thank you jupiter. ( YOU’RE WELCOME)

from recent stuff there's not a ton to add but i didn't really love gimli's 606. i kinda was swayed at first by the paragraph in response to my scumread but maybe i am once again falling for the “wow you're so towny for scumreading me. great job”. and i don't really like the catgirls scumread, i think maria has felt more like her town approach to me so idk why gimli is saying it's clearly not her towngame. it feels sort of to me like when decent-good level scum feels like they don't want their strongest scumread to be on low content posters and so they kinda force a scumread on a bigger name. the paragraph on prism is slightly awkward also imo. idk. overall im not sold by the post

kirigiri's catchup post was solid and alleviated some concerns i had there. ik she's good at wallposting as scum too but this one reminded me more of the way she approaches games as town. i guess i haven't really directly seen her as scum but my impression is there's more action and control. she feels like she's figuring things out and not working as part of a team.

this might be a dumb take and im not sure how much weight im willing to give to this but i think black putting 7 people in null is actually like extremely towny for her

prism’s read on dragon, especially with the elaboration, feels really precise and surgical and that worries me a little bit. i know she said at the start that her focus was going to be very directed this game but the analysis doesn't feel as holistic as i expect, i guess. ive seen prism be extremely towny in the way she approaches solving a game and i feel like im still waiting to see that.

im not really interested in pushing or eliminating her today and i was a little hesitant to bring up any suspicion but she's observant anyway and has probably noticed. it may be self centered of me to think that she's ignoring me on purpose but i think she is, especially after not responding to a direct question. there's definitely a plausible world where she's town and doing that to see how i react to try to sort me but it does feel really unlike how she approached purgatory w.r.t. me although yes yes i know that was a marathon and it was completely different mindset. still

anyway idk i would probably sit on this read since it's undeveloped which i know is generally a mistake to share early against strong scum players but jupiter wanted to talk about her anyway so i guess we can. i am also kind of interested in hearing more from klick about his read/vote there and that's part of my motivation for talking about this

[Sunflower]

VOTE: Prism

[Sunflower]

VOTE: ActionDan

[Sunflower]

VOTE: Gimli

[Sunflower]

I actually think ActionDan's assessment of the Slide reveal being pro-town in 200 is a towny thought process. It feels like a thought that sprang up out of genuine curiosity as to whether town or scum caused the Slide reveal. The momentum of the ActionDan wagon today has made me think that's the bait wagon, I don't want to see AD flip today.

i know we're not supposed to post much more but i really do not like this reasoning and i really do not like the way gimli jumped on top of it or the entirety of 656.

it took me a bit to even find what you were talking about here because it's such a small thing. it's literally just this:

I think rule 8 kills off the useless Slide dream. I think whatever or whoever caused the reveal to be pro-town.

calling the reveal pro-town is like. one of the most obvious and uncreative thoughts someone could have?? im not sure what there even is to consider or be curious about. revealing information to the town is pro-town by, like, definition. i don't see how klick is reading alignment out of this.

im not really sure if that makes me suspect klick but i think the way gimli piggybacked off that reasoning and ran with it is really scummy. i think, again, that most of his posting has been centered around building allies and establishing his own position. i don't think there's any way town!gimli genuinely believes the poe is that narrow here.

the aureal push in general gives me bad vibes and i don't want to go there

~~

a couple other things since we're at 7 so this is one of our last posts:

- we are okay with voting hu tao if we really need to get a wagon going but id kind of rather not
- i think the wagon on actiondan was super pure (i think it was us/catgirls/dragon/von payne?) and i think we should bring it back
- i don't really like the undermining of catgirls that seems to be happening lately. i still think they're solidly town. feels scum-motivated
- interested in hearing from prism more and what exactly was such an awful take
- i liked GiF's posting early on but haven't been really very sold on Dunn especially lately. that read is dropping a bit for me. would probably vote there

[Sunflower]

Jupiter saying Prism has "rancid vibes" really doesn't track well especially considering the conversation they had from 571 to 575 where Prism was treated cordially.

hi breaking out of my posting jail becaude tbh this pisses me off- have you read

any of my games ever

. that is literally how i express gutreads most of the timr

[Sunflower]

woof woof

yes i viscerally dislike sunflower's posting it feels very manufactured but idk. i could be wrong about that. my heart now sings to me the ballad of "omg pagetop" despite having only 100 posts and even if it's small i feel that a wolf maaaaay not want to lean into their 'thing' if it would anger the town. but i think that their takes have not felt good when reading them just in the moment

hi this is jupitet and im here to boo you violently this sucks

[Sunflower]

also sigh phoneposting so i dont really wanna format but actiondans case particularly when he got to me actually SUCKED LIKE BRO i will post like this as much as i want and if u dislike it u can literally cry abt it. plus i may think prism has rancid vibes but it doesnt mean im gonna be an ass to her for literally 0 reason
^ literally been malding over this all day

i also missed a bunch of posts prior to flip sighhj i dont wanna read them

[Sunflower]

also ugh i really did thjnk it was prism and hu tao here which makes me wrong

[Sunflower]

my associative reads last game had really bad.accuracy so maybe i shouldnt have relied on them bht like fuuck i was actually so wrong there im kind kf embarrased. sorry prism and sorry hu tao

[Sunflower]

if I die tonight I suggest flipping sunflower first

i litrrally townread you, what?????

[Sunflower]

I want to know which head of Sunflower voted me.

that was fire

[Sunflower]

if I die tonight I suggest flipping sunflower first

i litrrally townread you, what?????

Ignoring Gimli is +EV dw

whats ev

[Sunflower]

my associative reads last game had really bad.accuracy so maybe i shouldnt have relied on them bht like fuuck i was actually so wrong there im kind kf embarrased. sorry prism and sorry hu tao

oh i.didmt even notice this was a pagetop we syau winning !!!!

[Sunflower]

if I die tonight I suggest flipping sunflower first

i litrrally townread you, what?????

Ignoring Gimli is +EV dw

whats ev

Estimated Value

ok sorry i'm dumb but whay does this mean in context, does it make me more valuable to ignore gimli?

[Sunflower]

Cool. Fire, I want to know what part of you thought that reactionary vote was a good idea and why.

is it a bad idea? idk, you calling my entire readlists as well as fire's a horrendously bad take (paraphrased) and then voting us kind of pisssd me off a little

[Sunflower]

Sunflower is currently fourth on my list but might skyrocket to one.

Dragon is fifth. Nothing has bothered me past the last set of posting, even if it hasn't impressed.

wdym fourth

[Sunflower]

I fully expect your read on me to be wildly wrong, and I didn't care.

you're really not convincing me otherwise here. :/

[Sunflower]

ok then dont care then idk what you want out of me

[Sunflower]

ok then dont care then idk what you want out of me

probably nothing

[Sunflower]

o i want lagrtop

[Sunflower]

FUCK

[Sunflower]

You're getting short annoyance because I'm on my phone at a show. Not personal or contemptuous.

ok

[Sunflower]

have fun at your show

[Sunflower]

VC 1-2

Day One Post Count: 69.

Hu Tao (7):

Kyoko Kirigiri, Von Payne, Catgirl Chipotle, Aureal, DragonEater70, Hu Tao, Gimli

Sunflower (3):

Silver Ravens, ActionDan, Yadrasse

Aureal (1):

Klick

Gimli (1):

Sunflower

Silver Ravens (1):

Prism

Not voting (1):

No one

With 13 alive it takes 7 votes to eliminate.

Day 1 Deadline is March 17 at Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2024-03-20 23:59:59)

Extra Post Tally

Player	Extra Post Made?
ActionDan	-
Gimli	-
Von Payne	-
DragonEater70	-
Kyoko Kirigiri	-
Klick	-
Hu Tao	-
Prism	-
Aureal	-
Catgirl Chipotle	-
Silver Ravens	-
Sunflower	-
Ydrasse	-

Mod notes:

• If you see an error in this or any other vote count please let us know via PM.
  
• 

An Elimination Has Been Achieved!

why are we voting gimli
also nice

[Sunflower]

hi, jupiter here. sorry, i have four tests on friday and i am not winning. will respond to stuff in a while.

[Sunflower]

in a moment* ???

[Sunflower]

i just wanted to say that i threw fire under the bus. technically fire voted you prism but i didn't want him to get in trouble for something that was my idea

[Sunflower]

sorry about lying to you

[Sunflower]

Cool. What did fire say in the interim between then and now?

fire told me that you responded w details about what u said and voted us and i was like NOOO and said i was waving my fist at you. fire said he could free me from no posting jail to respond. i said the site wasnt loading for me but i would much ratehr vote. fire said he could do it for me. i said ok. he voted. and then when you unvoted he told me, he said 50% chance of it being a reaction test but wasn't sure why you were testing. and then neither of us talked about it, later (aka yesterday) he said that he was gonna write a post and asked if i had anything to say and i said nah. then we talked about our own stuff. and then tonight while i was away at an event he messaged me telling me that hu tao flipped town and said he'd want to re-eval some things.

[Sunflower]

About me, specifically.

i don't remember if we mentioned you except to talk about how you were a competent scum player

[Sunflower]

i can check this is all memory

[Sunflower]

he said he was confident about the scumread on you

[Sunflower]

ooh there's a readlist here
that reminds me
aureal/gimli scum

[Sunflower]

it's like you need this dumbed down so hard to even begin to understand easy things. I miss klick and DE, y'all just hard to work with. there.

why so mean.

[Sunflower]

it's like you need this dumbed down so hard to even begin to understand easy things. I miss klick and DE, y'all just hard to work with. there.

why so mean.

as mean as drew was to me calling my reasoning bullshit, twice

did he? i didnt read

[Sunflower]

wait he luiterally did in #823 im fucking blind

[Sunflower]

excuse me while i die of embarrassment

[Sunflower]

fire's seen my scumgame, probably more than once. Bruteforcing townreads by way of tone is more natural to me than breathing. It's not here this game by choice.

Which is why his read was uniquely horrific, and if he didn't get it at first fire is unlikely to get it after more thought. But he's scum for not taking the time to try, and instead just trying to pass a vibecheck.

i'm really not sure that's what he was trying to do here

[Sunflower]

in other words you're wrong
i've seen a fire scumgame before, this isn't it

[Sunflower]

but also we're literally a hydra and we have a green PM

[Sunflower]

hi im here

[Sunflower]

Sunflower should get flipped. I unvoted because I was irritable from too much caffeine and figured I expected too much from fire. Jupiter's partner read was blatantly wrong and fire should have put their foot down. ButI was willing to ignore it.

fire's read was bad for several reasons, but the primary one is this: The missing item from my early posting is every bit of tonal nuance that I spent half a decade engineering to be near-universally townread. The cuts are intentional and NAI at worst.

Still, I thought I demanded too much of fire. But he should have spent substantial time wondering what was wrong. fire is very interested in reversing thought processes like that. But fire didn't: he took my unvote as passing a vibecheck, and seems to have thought no further. I typed this before a p-edit, and what do you know, fire appears to have said it was a reaction test.

i think you completely misunderstood what i was talking about but i am aware that i explained it pretty poorly. the issue wasn't the lack of tone or the usual things you use to get townread. i agree that is if anything town-indicative. my issue was with the underlying mindset and the way you were approaching the game as a whole, which i think is kind of hard to quantify, but it's best reflected in the way you approached the read on dragon

i also did think that jupiter's team read of you + hu tao was blatantly wrong but you don't know me as well as you think you do if you believe that i would put my foot down on that and tell him no

i was also aware that regardless of your alignment you thought my argument was bad. i was aware that you would think that before i posted it. i think i literally said this in the post. you telling me to revisit didn't really change anything. my initial read on that post was that it didn't make sense if you were actually trying to tell me to revisit because you should know that wouldn't change anything. i was continually revisiting already and still am and saying "your argument sucks" is like. yeah i know that

so it looked like you were either reaction testing, or trying to make it look like a reaction test. i voted partly bc jupiter told me to and partly bc i was reminded of a similar situation where i came at aristeia with a mostly gut read based around her positioning but very weakly explained (and i was similarly aware of it) and then she tore it apart and then i felt dumb and backed off and hey she was scum. so i felt idk brave for a moment and wanted to signal to you that i didn't care if you thought my argument was trash, i still thought you were scum. and also i wanted to convey that i was annoyed you still didn't answer my question

after that i did continue thinking about it more and became less confident. i still think you are decent likelihood of scum but i want to flip gimli right now and go from there. i didn't talk about my read on you that much with jupiter recently at least since we were talking about other stuff but i do think that the way you approached the interrogation of him here is pretty suspect. i think it's pretty clear that you already knew the trajectory you wanted the argument to take and if that's the case then i don't think it makes any sense to act as if you initially were less sure on the read and then it progressed. what specific new information did you gain that made you go from having us at 4th priority to 1st priority? im pretty sure you knew basically everything that jupiter said already

[Sunflower]

"seems to have thought no further" is crazy

like you can't possibly believe that would be true

and you're better than taking me not talking about it much with jupiter as evidence for that

[Sunflower]

sigh
i gotta go to bed soon but im gonna return to actiondans case and yell about it briefly cuz i hated that

[Sunflower]

-jupiter

[Sunflower]

ncm im going ot bed bye

[Sunflower]

literally gladiate me and gimli idc he's scum

[Sunflower]

i don't care that much anymore but it was asking why you townread actiondan, at the bottom of 592

ok. technically. it doesn't have a question mark. don't lawyer me.

[Sunflower]

Lol this reaction by Sunflower is so towny

I might expect too much but this expects too little.

i think that you do probably think im more analytical and rigorous than i am, particularly in the early game. i don't really find that as useful until after flips or when the game gets smaller/denser and i can analyze the game as a whole. i think you've only really seen me town in micros? in a larger playercount gamestate i go more by feel early on

[Sunflower]

It's gonna be funny if Prism ends up being a townread of mine

But also kinda scary because I would have no idea in that scenario where to look for scum

why do you think gimli is town besides that he pocketed you which as we all know is very unlike scum gimli

[Sunflower]

for what it's worth me and jupiter have learned that we have like. a very different solving process lol. and so while we've talked about reasons for reads a bit we haven't really had a lot of success in hashing them out

idk we are both learning how to hydra still, never done it before

most of our conversation has not been about the game lol

[Sunflower]

You didn't call your own read bad. You called it undeveloped. My point is that it was wrong from the start and needed to be scrapped.

Meanwhile I just handed you the exact explanation for the stylistic worry on a silver platter.

badly argued

the read is only bad if you're town

i literally do not have a stylistic worry you are inventing that as a reason

[Sunflower]

I think Gimli actually explained it best

It was a real time interaction that you kinda only got by being in the thread as it happened. But what I was seeing was Gimli forcing a TR on Kyoko as a way to get out of RVS and then trying to work WITH her to solve me in a way I just know is exactly how town Gimli works and is not exactly how scum Gimli works. Scum Gimli would have just said "lol Dragon is towny" or something similar.

you're wrong. reconsider.

[Sunflower]

i just wanted to try saying that to see how it felt ngl

feels kinda icky i don't like it

[Sunflower]

prism’s read on dragon, especially with the elaboration,

feels really precise and surgical and that worries me a little bit.

i know she said at the start that her focus was going to be very directed this game but

the analysis doesn't feel as holistic as i expect, i guess.

ive seen prism be extremely towny in the way she approaches solving a game and i feel like im still waiting to see that.

First is clearly stylistic. Second is both stylistic and substantive. I addressed the fuller picture to Dragon in quotes.

the first and the second are the same point, the second is elaborating on the first

i saw the fuller picture, and still feel that way

i guess maybe your point is that you are just ignoring everything except the most substantive points and to you that is a stylistic choice. which. okay maybe that's fair. but from the outside it looks like it could also be a result of mindset and approach rather than style

[Sunflower]

Explain this post please

i literally did explain it 2 posts later lol, i was referencing the post prism made to me earlier

i am fairly confident on gimli though and i think that the way you're viewing him is frustratingly narrow. especially to say "scum gimli wouldn't do this" is just... that part is wrong. imo

[Sunflower]

My favorite part of this is that fire's argument is "of course I reconsidered and am constantly reevaluating privately" but the actual reasoning moved and developed zero.

what. i am explaining what my thought process behind the post was at the time because you clearly did not understand it

[Sunflower]

no you didn't because you kept repeatedly saying that i was saying something i never said but okay

i don't know how to explain in detail "i became less confident" but i guess it stemmed from thinking that i was not giving you enough credit (which i will still argue is unrelated to your style point). i think there's been times where i have given you too much credit as scum ("i think this play is objectively bad, so scum prism would never do it") but i was probably overcorrecting

i also was thinking about how you would want to position yourself in this playerlist and what potential teammates you could have that would make you want to play in the more limited scope less brute forcing townreads manner. one idea that came to mind was that you can just send gimli out to do that job (specifically because he has more social pull in this list than you do) while you sit further back for now and clean things up later. i still think this is fairly possible. i will admit i actually near the start of the game thought you were doing this with dragon but that went away pretty quickly

i know that you have said you carry out of necessity and not out of want, and i think that there's part of you that would be interested to try handing off the reins to someone else. there was a point where the way gimli felt emboldened in his what felt to me like powerwolfing made me feel pretty strongly that this was happening. but then i kind of questioned whether you would actually do that or not, and also decided i might be getting too ahead of myself/overeager to teamsolve

i just realized idk when thread is locking there's not much more to say anyway

[Sunflower]

If you wanna convince me he's not town it's not gonna be through "your reasoning sucks" but through pointing out actually scummy things he did this game.

ik, i will more tomorrow, although i think ive already talked about it some

[Sunflower]

what was the pragmatic purpose behind 268, 269, 272?

those specifically made me slightly wary at the time because they felt like using tone to position in a way that you were fairly clear about not intending to do

[Sunflower]

When not phone posting, I revise posts by cutting every word and sentence I find superfluous or byzantine. Hope this helps.

meant to quote this and respond but you get the idea

[Sunflower]

alright

gn

[Sunflower]

hi

[Sunflower]

I think Gimli actually explained it best

It was a real time interaction that you kinda only got by being in the thread as it happened. But what I was seeing was Gimli forcing a TR on Kyoko as a way to get out of RVS and then trying to work WITH her to solve me in a way I just know is exactly how town Gimli works and is not exactly how scum Gimli works. Scum Gimli would have just said "lol Dragon is towny" or something similar.

you're wrong. reconsider.

Wtf? You sound like Prism or Dannflor or something

LMAOOOO dannflor would never
actually he probably would

[Sunflower]

also dope we get thread all to ourselves!!! hi black and drew

[Sunflower]

maybe after 2 days of this i will get used to it and be able to stop triple checking the modpost that says we're allowed to post here every time i go to say anything

it feels wrong and i am so terrified of breaking rules

ty for putting it in the thread title that helps

[Sunflower]

ive been reading gimli's latest towngames to see if my meta was out of date and i cannot find one like this at all so i have no idea where dragon is coming from on that

[Sunflower]

i still want to read some more but quick summary of things that i feel are different so far:

- the general focus of his posting. this is the main reason i suspected him. in town games he's very solving-directed, you can see him evaluating new information and trying to sort people with it. he's a lot more on the back foot, taking things in. in the scum games ive looked at he did do more positional-focused play than as town but here i would say is the most ive ever seen him do as either alignment (although i do remember feeling he did a ton of it in hollow knight as scum). i think even his scum games he was usually trying to pretend to solve more. here it's super political, building allies, establishing his own position in the game, all of those take priority over genuine attempts to sort people

- the speed at which he comes to a read on everyone. in town games he is just a lot less sure of himself, not in terms of individual reads where he definitely will locktown people early, but in terms of overall. i expect there's probably a ramge of this bc i think i remember him having a overconfident towngame before, but i haven't seen it yet. here he somehow just... got a read on everyone? i don't think this is impossible for town!gimli but in this game it doesn't feel supported by his posting at all

- the lack of being driven by his own scumreads. in town games, he will sometimes aim to poe and often focuses on townreads, but generally there will still be a couple of scumreads that develop fairly naturally and that motivate a decent amount of his posting. i don't think that really exists here at all. his scumreads have been fairly fluid, shifting in a responsive way to whatever helps in the current gamestate (notable example of this is how he initially tried townreading out slot for our read on him when everyone had us as locktown but then shifted us to a scumread when we didn't back off and when other people started suspecting us). the one exception to this really has been the catgirls scumread, but that is such a weak read and doesn't even feel like he cares to develop it. it looks like he just decided he needed a scumread and that it would be catgirls. there's little to no organic reasoning behind it

- the amount of time he spends buttering up townreads and boxing other people out away from them. this is kinda related to the first point. in town games he will townlock people early but his focus mostly then pivots to the rest of the game. here his primary focus has remained with maintaining his townblock and, like, pushing away anyone who gets too close. i think that especially if most or all of von payne, klick, dragon, and aureal are town, then gimli came in knowing that he had an opportunity to grab the reins of this social group and take control of a huge portion of the game. i think that the level to which he was excited to do this leaks through into his posting. i think his approach to that group would look a lot different if he were town here



i think that gimli probably does think that he is imitating his town meta here but i don't think he actually has a very good understanding of the underlying factors that go into what makes his towngame the way that it is. i am surprised that anyone who actually has an understanding of gimli meta would be townreading him for matching town meta here

and to be clear, again, i think there is a range of gimli town styles, some where he's more confident and that makes the play look different. but i don't think this looks like his average towngame, you certainly cannot call him town off meta, and the differences in play here are like exactly things that would be more suited to accomplish scum goals than town goals

so even if you throw out meta completely, his play is oriented more towards being scum-motivated. i just also happen to think that he does also play this way more as scum than he does as town

[Sunflower]

ok sorry that was supposed to be quick. there just are a lot of clear differences i think

[Sunflower]

i did have the thought that it's possible dragon is taking gimli at his word that he is successfully emulating his town meta successfully bc they are scum together and gimli said he would do that. it's sort of hard to see how someone could think this is 100% exactly like town gimli especially when dragon was in most of the games i read

i will try to re-evaluate dragon under that lens but i think he's felt pretty towny to me and it feels more like he is pocketed by gimli rather than partnered. although it is possible and actually fairly likely that if they were scum together they would plan to try to make it appear that way

[Sunflower]

also btw after last night and after sleeping on it i am not really sure where im at on prism but im going to deal with that later

[Sunflower]

if it actually is prism/gimli/dragon that is wild and we are doomed

off the top of my head that feels somewhat unlikely, i think they've tied themselves together more than they would need to