Micro Normal 1100 | Game Over

[Snow2697]

Hi, has taken over RN's role. Quite a reading here. Will review during today.

[Snow2697]

@Snow, when can we expect your take on the game and your scum reads and such?

4-5 hrs. returning from work. you can go ahead and hammer me if you feel so based on my predecessor's actions. just do it quickly.

[Snow2697]

No. I'm not giving up. But hammering me without giving a chance to read and react would give town info. Who is that quick and why? Assuming we have 2 scums, quite helpful.
Will be with you with my views separately.

[Snow2697]

OMG. I have been through these pages. They blew my mind. Will now write and post my thoughts.

[Snow2697]

My quick ranking is below:

Solon and Fancy – townish
DD, GiF, Jackson – controversial
Roland – suspicious
Kay – scummy
Not Mafia – unclear

What complicates things is that we have players with different experience, skill, game style, level of involvement, readiness to share arguments (and respond to others’ arguments) etc. You can like style of some players, but disagree with their arguments (which does not necessarily make them scums). You can dislike style of the others but agree with their arguments or some of them. You can lack understanding of their agenda or arguments. So, players can be in different categories. This necessarily adds a huge degree of discretion in ranking them.

[Snow2697]

Some explanations.

There has been interaction between Gob, GiF, Roland and Solon at the start of the game.
Gob claimed a cop. Voted GiF and called her scum.
GiF claimed vig, threatened to shoot Gob.
Solon jumped on GiF.
Roland defended GiF.

I think the main point is who are these four and whether (and how many) scums are there. I would say at least 1. Two possible, but could be overly lucky. Just 0, also not excluded.

Solon – on balance liked him the most.

GiF – don’t like her claiming 3 town reads there, if I take it right; looked like an attempt to end the conflict.

Gob/Jackson – Gob has been trolling, don’t like this style, but it does not prove per that he is scum, may be that helped to move things forward; Jackson has made a principled decision to attack Roland. I don’t understand the reasons for that. But I also suspect Roland (see below).

Roland – liked his stile the most. Agree with many of his points. But:
- he criticized Solon for being a troll, but did not seem to do the same with GiF for her vig claim;
- he criticized Solon for pushing a train on GiF (which I treat as moving the game forward to too quickly, see 54), and at the same time attacked Gob ("that's also an incredibly effective scum strategy to just troll all game long and give yourself an excuse to not move the game forward", see 42). He also said at 59: "I mean, it's page 1, who cares? This is a common occurrence in the game for people to say things that don't push the game forward." I don’t think that 42, 54 and 59 and Roland’s treatment of this Gob/Solon/GiF affair are consistent.
- he said in 228 that he saw more and more town!Solon over their interaction. Which was not my reading of their exchange.
- he said Gob could not be credited for pushing the game and did not deserve a town read, but over time he called Gob as town (478).
So, I have felt that as new conflicts arose between him and other players, he was trying to stop his previous ones and be on good terms with their participants. Which makes sense, but I don’t think that he was always consistent in his statements and approach here.

DD – Fancy voted him, got criticized by Roland for that, but DD launched a conflict with Roland instead of pushing Fancy with him. Seems like a principled move. Hardly a move by a scum. Roland is right that DD's case was not explained in detail (and DD did not seem to try to do so), and I found DD’s style overly aggressive. But his actions could have been honest moves from a town!DD.

Kay – avoids conflicts, takes fights very carefully. Seems like a similar pattern with Roland and GiF.

Fancy – agree with some of her points, disagree with the others.

Not Mafia – don’t understand him. A troll? Looks even more eccentric and extreme than Gob (which is not easy). Though DD gave some details on his previous experience with him.

Whom to lim?

- GiF, Jackson and DD – don’t think they should be limmed now.
- Not Mafia – can be a candidate, but looks more like a policy lim. Not sure this will give town a lot.
- Roland – the best candidate from the standpoint of info for the town. One of the 4 players in the initial conflict. A lot of conflicts are associated with him. But he is the most active and dedicated player. Limming him on D1 is a tough decision.
- Kay – can be a candidate. But again not sure this will give town a lot.

Might depend on number of scums. If 2, could be Not Mafia or Kay. If 3, may be we should not lose time and consider Roland. I have thought initially there can be 2 scums at most, but there was an opinion somewhere in the thread that 3 can be an option.

[Snow2697]

Anything more on my slot than gob trolling and pushing roland?

Cannot say that I have mastered all details of your 30+ page thread within the time I had. Anything in particular you want to ask me?

[Snow2697]

Might depend on number of scums. If 2, could be Not Mafia or Kay. If 3, may be we should not lose time and consider Roland. I have thought initially there can be 2 scums at most, but there was an opinion somewhere in the thread that 3 can be an option.

In what world would I be mafia with N_M? I’ve had a vote on him almost the entire time, along with his self vote. He’s just as close to elimination as you are and you think a scum team would both risk that? (I don’t know how N_M plays so I can’t really speak on the self vote, though I think in general, they’re dumb) I get there’s “distancing” but this would be really stupid on my part if I were bad.

I have not said that you are fellow scums with N_M.

[Snow2697]

The much longer post just 6 minutes after the much shorter one suggests a post that was very carefully curated.

I have had it as single text and decided to post part 1 and then polish and post part 2.

[Snow2697]

Anything more on my slot than gob trolling and pushing roland?

Cannot say that I have mastered all details of your 30+ page thread within the time I had. Anything in particular you want to ask me?

Technically they’ve only been around 20 pages, much more manageable if you ask me. Especially since I think most of the gob stuff can be largely ignored as it was not really serious.

May be. But I think you need to still go through the stuff to figure out whether it has been serious or not.

[Snow2697]

There has been interaction between Gob, GiF, Roland and Solon at the start of the game.
Gob claimed a cop. Voted GiF and called her scum.
GiF claimed vig, threatened to shoot Gob.
Solon jumped on GiF.
Roland defended GiF.

I think the main point is who are these four and whether (and how many) scums are there. I would say at least 1. Two possible, but could be overly lucky. Just 0, also not excluded.

Furthermore, this is just an IIoA (Information Instead of Analysis), garnished with surface-level number guessing.

Don't understand your criticism. If you think that the initial 4-person conflict is not important, then say your position on this. I have set out mine.

Solon – on balance liked him the most.

Fancy – agree with some of her points, disagree with the others.

These were your stated townreads. So what part of this makes Fancy town for you?

A combination of style and contents of her messages.

GiF – don’t like her claiming 3 town reads there, if I take it right; looked like an attempt to end the conflict.

Is this really all you have on me? That townreads posts was from much earlier on. Also,

Kay – avoids conflicts, takes fights very carefully. Seems like a similar pattern with Roland and GiF.

What makes me controversial and Kay scummy, if we shared a similar pattern?

I don't think she pursues her own agenda as a player. Her primary concern seems to be not to quarrel with other players.
I think you have your own agenda.

DD – Fancy voted him, got criticized by Roland for that, but DD launched a conflict with Roland instead of pushing Fancy with him. Seems like a principled move. Hardly a move by a scum. Roland is right that DD's case was not explained in detail (and DD did not seem to try to do so), and I found DD’s style overly aggressive. But his actions could have been honest moves from a town!DD.

I must be misunderstanding your definition of "controversial" because this reads like a townread. What makes your DD read "controversial" and not town?

I did not mean "controversial" to be townread or scummy or null. I would say it is a mixture of townread and scummy features, which I cannot resolve now. I don't understand reasons why DD launched an attack on Roland. DD's arguments against Roland. Also, DD's attack on Roland overlapped with Jackson's which I also don't understand.

- GiF, Jackson and DD – don’t think they should be limmed now.
- Not Mafia – can be a candidate, but looks more like a policy lim. Not sure this will give town a lot.
- Roland – the best candidate from the standpoint of info for the town. One of the 4 players in the initial conflict. A lot of conflicts are associated with him. But he is the most active and dedicated player. Limming him on D1 is a tough decision.
- Kay – can be a candidate. But again not sure this will give town a lot.

Also, this whole part is ???
Your own readlist stated Kay as "scummy" and Roland as "suspicious," which indicates that Kay seemed more scum to you than Roland, but you call for Roland lim, and based on the information that would provide? Are you, like, not trying to lim scum?

My point is that if we lim a scum, great. But we need to consider what would happen if we lim town. Can we exclude that Kay or Not Mafia are town? I think no, they can be town. So, what would give us elimination of town Kay or town Not Mafia? Will this clarify any conflicts in which they are involved? Don't think so.
And I don't call for Roland. You misread me. To the contrary, I said this would be a tough decision. And I said that "may be" we "consider" Roland if there are 3 scums, not 2.

[Snow2697]

UNVOTE:

I should unvote GiF.

[Snow2697]

The much longer post just 6 minutes after the much shorter one suggests a post that was very carefully curated.

Means nothing, I often curate my own posts regardless of alignment.

When you joined this game, you gave your thoughts as you read through the game. You didn't take a full day to get your bearings. You didn't need time to prepare. I don't think these two situations align.

And that’s incredibly rare for me, I’ve always done shitposting while I make a spoilered analysis post

I felt that I would rather read the thread and try to give my consolidated position. Instead of making myriads of posts to deal with.

[Snow2697]

Really don't understand Roland's critique.
1. What he actually does is replacing the question "who is town" with "who contributes here regularly". If so, let's just ISO people and judge them based on number/volume of their posts.
2. I don't see why I cannot call people suspicious/controversial if I cannot reach or have not reached more definite position on them. I has been able to start looking at this only today in the evening. And I did formulate an option of eliminating either Not Mafia (player unclear for me) or Kay (player scummy for me). What puzzles me is that he does not take issue with my qualifications of these 2 players and does not comment on substance of my elimination options.
3. Seems like his real point is that he is called suspicious. I don't think that anyone here can usurp "lock town" position who cannot be questioned.

[Snow2697]

Another thought: I don't really see how Snow townreads FancyPants and scumreads me, when FancyPants has largely sheeped my own case on Drew. A not-insignificant amount of FancyPants' efforts here have echoed my own thoughts on Drew, so it's weird to me that the one who aligns with the original view gets to be townread, but the one who originated that read in the first place is somehow scum.

That's something new. I read you as saying that FancyPants has been largely repeating your views and have generated herself just something insignificant. And only on Drew. I disagree.

Too late in my place, have to go to bed. Will return in the morning.

[Snow2697]

I cannot be portrayed as Roland's teammate. I actually called him sus which put me immediately under fire. So, Drew's claim that he is the only one suspecting Roland is unfair.
But I don't think that going after Roland in a 2-scum scenario should be considered now.

[Snow2697]

What is noteworthy about Drew is that he seems to complain about people not following him in voting vs Roland without actually putting his case against Roland.
You can withhold your case vs an adversary for a while, you can probably request a couple of votes on a player to stimulate or provoke him/her, but you cannot expect that others will join you and lim him/her in the absence of clear arguments.

[Snow2697]

Has not formed a view on Gob's win conditions. This can be a reference to the mod's assessment of his gameplay vis-a-vis the substance of his game objectives (eg he should pretend townish as scum, but does the opposite; or should be pro-town as red, while his game is black and is directing attention). Or that his play just lead to his modkill, so he is essentially committing suicide, which is against his win conditions in any event.

[Snow2697]

I cannot be portrayed as Roland's teammate. I actually called him sus which put me immediately under fire. So, Drew's claim that he is the only one suspecting Roland is unfair.
But I don't think that going after Roland in a 2-scum scenario should be considered now.

So what should be considered?

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're town based on your reasonable catch-up, but I expect to see some proactivity from you with regards to who should be eliminated.

I have given two options. Not Mafia or Kay. Unclear player and scummy player based on my read.

Sus Roland should not be an option, since the player who pushes him (DD) does not put a case against Roland. Later we'll have to decide how serious has been DD's play vs Roland.

Does not seem like Kay's lime is supported though.

If so, the real options for the town are Not Mafia or me.

[Snow2697]

Now I'm starting to think it actually is Snow/Roland after all which is why Roland freaked out over Drew linking them together.

My scum team with Roland makes no sense.

Also in saying so you actually take Drew's side in his conflict with Roland. I think you cannot resolve their conflict until Drew puts his case vs Roland.

[Snow2697]

Now I'm starting to think it actually is Snow/Roland after all which is why Roland freaked out over Drew linking them together.

My scum team with Roland makes no sense.

Also in saying so you actually take Drew's side in his conflict with Roland. I think you cannot resolve their conflict until Drew puts his case vs Roland.

So you're suggesting that I can't scumread Roland until Drew puts forth his case?

That's nonsense.

You can scumread.

What I think is premature is to take side of player A vs player B where A does not explain why B should be limmed, but complains that no-one is voting against B.

I agree that Roland's reaction to yesterday discussion was not always perfect. Looks like he accepted this himself. But I would not downgrade him from sus to scummy based on this.

[Snow2697]

I agree that Roland's reaction to yesterday discussion was not always perfect. Looks like he accepted this himself. But I would not downgrade him from sus to scummy based on this.

Then how come you originally said you’d rather lim him over me when I was in your “scummy” read. Saying it wouldn’t get as much info makes little sense when, by your own opinion, I’m more scummy than him. You’d rather the possibility of getting out a town over someone you’re more sure is scum just because it might yield more info because of our interactions? This isn’t making much sense. Shouldn’t you want to go for the person you’re more sure is scum? I know you changed your tune after this was initially brought to your attention but why the shift? It just seems like you realized your analysis had holes in it and you needed to pivot because it was making you look suspicious.

Don't see any shift.

I said that in a 2-scum scenario I would choose between you and Not Scum. But if you or Not Scum turn town, this will not give a lot of info.

In a 3-scum scenario we need more info, so we can "consider" Roland. A lot of conflicts are centered on him. But "consider" does not mean auto-vote or lim.

Seems like no-one is arguing we have 3 scums here. So, so far it's you or Not Scum. Or me if people think that RN was too toxic.

BTW I may need to look closer at Drew - Roland. I am surprised Roland's morale is so low.

[Snow2697]

@Kay - do you see Roland-Drew conflict as TvT?

[Snow2697]

I see Roland's point that Drew can be prepping a big push on him on D2.
As a matter of principle I can also see town!Roland believing that Drew is scum and thinking that he should sacrifice himself to direct town to Drew.
But why not just play against Drew and vote him?

[Snow2697]

@Kay - do you see Roland-Drew conflict as TvT?

Yes. But I don’t know why my opinion matters if I’m scum to you, unless you’re going to try to implicate one or the other as my “partner”. Then we’re really fucked as a town.

I don't think you and Drew can be "partners". Drew can be "partner" of N_M or Jackson. I have seen you in team with Roland in some scenarios.

But how can I implicate Drew or Roland as your "partner" so that town is in trouble? If you get limmed and flip town, then Drew or Roland cannot be blamed as your fellow scums. This implication seems to work only if you are scum.

[Snow2697]

@Kay - do you see Roland-Drew conflict as TvT?

Yes. But I don’t know why my opinion matters if I’m scum to you, unless you’re going to try to implicate one or the other as my “partner”. Then we’re really fucked as a town.

I don't think you and Drew can be "partners". Drew can be "partner" of N_M or Jackson. I have seen you in team with Roland in some scenarios.

But how can I implicate Drew or Roland as your "partner" so that town is in trouble? If you get limmed and flip town, then Drew or Roland cannot be blamed as your fellow scums. This implication seems to work only if you are scum.

No it screws town because I’m town. You’re so obsessed with twisting everything I say and your reasoning for me being scum is flimsy at best. All it’s doing is making me think you’re definitely scum trying to push town in any direction except where we were originally looking.

Your initial phrase "we're really fucked as a town" is not well suited for a situation where there is one mislim.

And how is it that I try to "push town in any direction except where we were originally looking"? I set out my elimination options: you and N_M. I openly admitted that I am also an option if the town thinks RN was too toxic. Before I went through the thread and got fully on board I was fine with town limming me if it has made this decision. Was town not looking in my and N_M's direction? And am I really hard pushing you and buying votes? No, I am not focused on you, since there are other issues. You simply continue to attribute to me some (your) thoughts which are not mine.

[Snow2697]

Snow, do you mind if I ask, are you a native english speaker?

No, my English is not native.

[Snow2697]

I’m still on my phone and unfortunately probably will for today, but I’ve been considering all day if I want to townread snow for that 3-scum thing

Someone made a point long ago in the thread about 3-scum possibility, then 1 or 2 players disagreed, but I did not understand whether consensus has been reached and could not exclude this option.

[Snow2697]

My individual ranking is currently below:

Roland, Solon and Fancy – townish, but will recheck Fancy after he catches up
GiF, Jackson – controversial
DD - suspicious
Kay – scummy
Not Mafia – unclear

Roland/Malachai - Roland’s departure and Malachai contribution elevated this slot for me. The only way I currently see scum!Roland leaving the game in this way is where we are both scums and he was afraid that I am limmed on D1 and he cannot defend against DD on D2. Makes no sense to me.

DD – his push on Roland looked sincere. But Roland’s point about DD’s plan to lim him on D2 resonated with me. I felt that DD was pushing Roland, but was not actually playing for his lim today. DD complained that no-one supported him in limming Roland (this lack of support was expected when he refrained from giving his case against Roland). Could DD test who would support him vs Roland? DD’s suggestion that Roland is in a scum team with me has no merit IMO.

Jackson – Roland slot’s elevation put a pressure on him to be downgraded to sus, but will need to look closer at him.

From team perspective I can see Kay in a team with probably everyone (Kay – Roland looked very natural), but for DD and Jackson. So, if Kay is scum, then DD and Jackson are town. If one of DD/Jackson is scum, then Kay is town. My lim preference is shifting to NM. DD-NM and Jackson-NM teams make sense. Kay – NM is possible, but less likely. If NM is scum, then DD-Jackson are logical D2 scrutiny targets for me. If NM is town, I would look at Kay-DD-Jackson again.

[Snow2697]

Kay, don't worry. It's my 2nd game here as well, so you should not treat my thoughts on you as very authoritative. And I think I never called you locked scum.

I simply feel that you avoid confrontation, try to look good and nice, call people town, see conflicts as TvT, target not active players who can hardly respond. I really disliked your criticism of RN in 602 and 605. And not just because I am in his slot now. He was an easy target as player here, his message to put it mildly was not ideal and was subject to fair criticism, but why would a town player of your style jump on him as you did? To prove that you are active and brave? Looked like a posturing.

What really stops me from pushing you is that you could have been in team with Roland (who was sus for me, but his slot went up on my scale) and I don't see you in team with Drew or Jackson (who are going down). And yes, you can be a newbie townie whose mislim would not give a lot in terms of overall picture.

[Snow2697]

1st NM ranking
DownBad Gob
S+(I/2) Kay
Cold Cabbage GiF
ThunderClap Solon
Mary Seedcole RN
Quack Drew
Feathers McGraw Fancy
Fartarus Roland
Not_Mafia

2nd NM ranking
S+(7I/11) Kay
Cold Cabbage GiF
IndeScribeable
Ping Pong Planet
Feathers McGraw Fancy
ThunderClap Solon
Latoya Jackson
Quack Drew
Not_Mafia

IndeScribeable and Ping Pong Planet are apparently me and Malachai. Who is who?

[Snow2697]

IndeScribeable and Ping Pong Planet are apparently me and Malachai. Who is who?

This might be apparent for the others, but not for me. Can someone help me please?

I also would like to hear Fancy when he has time.

[Snow2697]

IndeScribeable and Ping Pong Planet are apparently me and Malachai. Who is who?

This might be apparent for the others, but not for me. Can someone help me please?

I also would like to hear Fancy when he has time.

[Snow2697]

I can only laugh at '

Not mafia hasn't breached any rules so far'.

That's truly insulting our intelligence.

You make a mockery of your own rules, and you threaten players who are actually contributing to the game while ignoring blatant game-throwing.

Solon, I think you had better retract your latest posts and apologize to the mod.
I you are out, my maths suggests that we can have only 1 mislim instead of 2.

[Snow2697]

Can you be a bro and give me your preferences for the lim?

I'd like to hear Fancy first. I agree with some of his points and disagree with the others, but even if I disagree it helps my analysis.

If I had to decide now, I would probably think about Solon.

[Snow2697]

Can you be a bro and give me your preferences for the lim?

I'd like to hear Fancy first. I agree with some of his points and disagree with the others, but even if I disagree it helps my analysis.

If I had to decide now, I would probably think about Solon.

Why Solon? He is probably my towniest read at this point, given everything that just went down.

He was town for me too.

But. He is adamant about "play or leave the game" and "play to your win conditions" tests. OK. He can do that. However, he is playing in a way that he himself can be knocked out. And refuses to play until his demands are met. Making ultimatum to the mod and other players. So, based on his own tests he is the scummiest player now.

If he does not retract and apologize, I will vote him.

This is a game hosted by a mod at a site as per rules. If you dislike smth from the above, say so outside and after the game and in appropriate tone.

[Snow2697]

I see your logic, and you are entitled to it.

I have mine and will stick to it.

[Snow2697]

We have to make opinions and decisions here vis-a-vis other players and we base these opinions/decisions on various factors. We can agree or disagree in full or in part on these opinions, decisions or factors. I am fine with that. It's just a game. But to refuse to play with another player altogether and start a dispute with the mod in this way about it seems too much.

I might be wrong on mislim attempts or other things. I certainly don't insist that the others follow me. This is my personal decision, and I apologize if someone thinks it's inappropriate.

Solon - it's very easy for you to have this vote taken away, but this is your personal decision and I will respect it.

VOTE: Solon

[Snow2697]

Just to be clear: you do not think Solon is scum and you still townread him, right?

Solon is town who has made a black move. According to standards, which he chose to assess other players (which he is entitled to), he is black himself. If he retracts and apologizes to the mod, I will revoke my vote and consider him town, probably with additional degree of scrutiny. If he doesn't, he can be going down on my scales. So far this is a sort of a policy vote. I am not playing against Solon.

You are town who has also made a black move. Solon can call NM scum, play vs him, vote him, solicit votes vs him. But now he refuses to play the game with NM, appeals to the mod and wants the mod to interfere in a hardly appropriate manner. And when I express my dislike (without crossing any lines I think), you scumread me and tell me "leave moderation to the mod and leave the game to the players". But Solon is doing the opposite! You can still consider Solon town (as I currently do), you can consider Solon town in the future (which I may or may not do), you can think that Solon is right and I am wrong, you can scumread me for what I do or for what RN was doing, but you cannot impose double standards on me and Solon here. If you keep doing this, you can be going down on my scales as well.

Hopefully this clarifies my views and does not offend anyone involved.

[Snow2697]

OK in summary.
Malachai/Solon: almost definitely town.
Drew- prob town: I've turned around on Drew, but it might just be that I like the way he thinks and posts - meh.
GIF/Kay/Jackson - potential scum: a few things off here I'll explain my thoughts if anyone wants to know.

NM - Null, our styles don't mesh at all - slots impossible to read, I understand the wagon to an extent but I think we can do better.

Snow - scum, slot was already scummy for RN being inactive, and for the few posts they made - also admits to being less active as scum. Snow's contributions are mostly just commenting on styles and talking about elims that may "benefit" town rather than actively hunting for scum.

@Snow, sorry if I missed it but can you explain your Kay case?

In short I still wanna vote snow and hope everyone can get on board.

If I need to explain any specific read please ask - I've expanded my scum pool a little mostly because my uncertainty about everything has increased.

I expected more substance and attention from Fancy.

My [post]1126[post] summarized my Kay case, and [post]1157[post] has 2 N_M's lists with player names. There is a view that Ping Pong is Malachai.

Looks like a scummy me first suspected Roland (who got quite a few of townreads) and got on fire. And then when Solon defended me and immediate pressure went away, I dared to launch a policy attack on him to provoke further scum reads?

"No scum hunt" comment is unfair. I cannot launch a full-scale attack on Kay, since she can be a newbie townie, and I accuse her of picking easy targets, so cannot behave like this. Also I don't see Kay in team with Drew. I suspect Drew. But look, he was harsh with Roland, may be caused his resignation, a lot of players supported Roland, but no-one really jumped on Drew. Seems like he is untouchable. Only N_M voted him.

Jackson - my 3 lim options are Drew (sus)- Kay (scummy) - N_M (floating between grey and unclear now) in this order. I'm voting Solon for reasons explained. If the Solon issue is resolved, I will vote Drew and stay there.

[Snow2697]

You’re not voting me because the only people that would jump on that wagon are: snow - your biggest scum read which would make your argument against me seem pretty silly, and N_M who is trolling the game. Not the best allies, if you ask me.

Kay - you are my 2nd lim preference, but as things stand, I will not vote you today and will not be on your wagon.

[Snow2697]

I'm voting almost entirely on this:

I expected more substance and attention from Fancy.

I am not sure if he could have offered more substance and attention than he did now. And the focus on a policy elimination is just bad. All signs are pointing that I should be going this direction with my vote.

He called me scum, said that my comments are largely about style and "benefits" (you should have had very broad definition of "style" to do that), but admitted that he might have missed some of my posts (he actually did - at least on Kay and on player names in N_M lists). So, my comment is fair. Cannot see how this can be disputed.

[Snow2697]

I'm voting almost entirely on this:

I expected more substance and attention from Fancy.

I am not sure if he could have offered more substance and attention than he did now. And the focus on a policy elimination is just bad. All signs are pointing that I should be going this direction with my vote.

He called me scum, said that my comments are largely about style and "benefits" (you should have had very broad definition of "style" to do that), but admitted that he might have missed some of my posts (he actually did - at least on Kay and on player names in N_M lists). So, my comment is fair. Cannot see how this can be disputed.

You make it sound like you don't care about anything he said about anyone that isn't you.

How can it be so that I don't care? I saw him as townish and said that I was waiting for his input.
What he wrote on me and N_M names list is a good illustration.
Or take his Drew part. He said "Drew- prob town: I've turned around on Drew, but it might just be that I like the way he thinks and posts - meh". How much substance and attention is here?

[Snow2697]

Fancy said Kay was never voting. This is not true, she replied to this.
He said I am scum on far-fetched grounds. I replied to this. Seems like he simply missed at least some of my posts.
My point is clear and convincing. Shall I keep jumping on him?

[Snow2697]

This whole cherry-picking thing makes no sense to me.
His position in summary is close to mine, apart from Drew and myself. What shall I argue with? That Jackson and GiF are potential scums, where I think they are controversial?
Some of his points are close to mine. He thinks Roland's self-vote is an anti-town move. Ok. Didn't I say that Roland should simply vote against Drew?
And when I read his position on scummy me, which is not just a gut feeling, but is put as result of his analysis or review, and it is clear that his analysis or review is simply incomplete, since he missed (or forgot) something. Shall I go through all his posts one by one to make an obvious point, esp. after Kay did the same? Or I just make an obvious point with an obvious example?

[Snow2697]

Fancy said Kay was never voting. This is not true, she replied to this.
He said I am scum on far-fetched grounds. I replied to this. Seems like he simply missed at least some of my posts.
My point is clear and convincing. Shall I keep jumping on him?

With all due respect, it is our job to decide whether your point is "clear and convincing", not yours. And you don't need my permission to pursue a case on anyone.

Here you are essentially just sheeping Kay's defense of herself. What, then, of Fancy's response that her votes are generally RVS / on inactive people? Is that a valid point, in your mind?

You can and should decide. And I can decide for myself on how I defend against an attack of someone who did not read my posts.

I agree with Fancy's response, but his case on Kay was that "finally you never vote". This is incorrect. Fancy's response just proves this.

[Snow2697]

I can decide for myself on how I defend against an attack of someone who did not read my posts.

Sure. And I can decide that when a guy comments on all the major cases in the game, and you ignore all of those and only take interest in the ones that involve you, that's a scummy tell from you.

I agree with Fancy's response, but his case on Kay was that "finally you never vote". This is incorrect. Fancy's response just proves this.

You seem to be hung up on him saying "you never vote" which is clearly hyperbolic speech. It's harder to sort out if hyperbolic speech is truly scummy or if it's just town getting the facts wrong or perhaps just overconfidence, so that's not necessarily inherently a scum tell.

To me it just seems really hard for FancyPants to have faked what he did just now, and I think you are giving him far, far too little credit for what he did. I got through that and thought "this is very thorough, useful, and very difficult for scum to fake".

Please don't distort my posts. I don't scumread Fancy and he is still high on my list.

What happens here is that player A calls player B scum because of argument C which is based on B's posts (not gut feeling), where A clearly did not read all of B's posts and missed at least some. And when B defends and points this out he is accused of cherry-picking.

Seems like Malachai keeps pursuing his "double standards" agenda, which I really dislike.

[Snow2697]

I don't understand the question.

[Snow2697]

IMO Kay's voting simply illustrates my "lack of substance and attention" point. THis does not change my TR of Fancy and SR of Kay. I concur with Fancy here.

[Snow2697]

More specifically, what are you hoping to accomplish with what you are talking about here?

You should ask yourself, not me. You have started this weird exchange, added a couple of moot points. If it brings us nowhere, it's hardly surprising.

[Snow2697]

More specifically, what are you hoping to accomplish with what you are talking about here?

You should ask yourself, not me. You have started this weird exchange, added a couple of moot points. If it brings us nowhere, it's hardly surprising.

I mean, my read of what you are doing is that you're causing chaos and / or saying things just for the sake of saying things. You town read Fancy, but you took it upon yourself to cast doubt on everything he just did. I don't see how doing so accomplishes anything other than mudding the waters, and I don't see how mudding the waters is anything other than scummy.

Feel free to explain how it isn't.

It's you, not me, who are causing chaos. You bring this cherry picking point, but during entire discussion you don't challenge that Fancy did not read all my posts, that he was (at very least) inaccurate in how he put his case vs Kay (isn't it lack of attention?), that he did not really think a lot when he townread Drew, that my posts were not just about style and "lim benefits". You say Fancy called me scum based on gut feeling (not true), you say I scumread Fancy (you've made it up), that I diminish all his contributions (again made up). And then you wonder where this brings us!

You keep pursuing a double standards agenda. Let's just imagine what would have happened had I (not Fancy) said that Kay did not vote anyone! And you even don't purport to respond. Is this anything other than scummy?

[Snow2697]

It's nice position to start all this and then say "don't deflect back to me".
Certainly please take time, review and write what you think.
Just don't keep saying "Snow scumreads Fancy", "Snow thinks Fancy is scum", "Snow casts doubt on everything Fancy did" unless you can point precisely where I said that (I didn't). If upon your review you confirm that I did not say that, I can consider this episode to be settled.

[Snow2697]

Good. Dust seems to settle a bit.

There is merit in GiF-Malachai exchange and critique of my Solon's vote. I took this risk when I voted him. You can query "why is Snow voting Solon who he thinks is town". Though you can equally query "why town!Solon not just retract and apologize if Snow's vote is such a big deal. And if it is not, why keep jumping on Snow?" Overall I think my vote vs Solon has made its point, so I would change it.

Re Fancy. I wrote that "I expected more substance and attention from Fancy" as a comment on his summary post. "More" does not mean there has been "none". It just means that I expected "more" than I saw. If Fancy takes issue with this comment, I apologize. I then gave a number of specific observations. That's it. At no time did I say that Fancy is scum or that his contribution is meaningless. To the contrary, I made a reservation several times that my set up was subject to me seeing his thoughts, since even if I disagree with them, they are useful for me. I still see him as town. His position on me does not change this. His set up is pretty much like mine, save for a couple of positions. If Fancy has any questions, I will answer them.

Don't think that I can be accused of not contributing. I shared my thoughts on the set up. Having reviewed Fancy's input, I sent out lim options as per Jackson's request in my 1282:

"Jackson - my 3 lim options are Drew (sus)- Kay (scummy) - N_M (floating between grey and unclear now) in this order. I'm voting Solon for reasons explained. If the Solon issue is resolved, I will vote Drew and stay there."

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[Snow2697]

VOTE: Malachai

I don’t think this is the correct direction we should be going.

I don’t think so, I checked back in the VC history for when NM/RN was happening and he looks pretty bad with that. I’m also using Drews read on him to back my confidence in this vote.

What makes you uneasy about VC history?

[Snow2697]

I actually think NM actually is scum here, there is definitely a sense of panic from them.

And this is definitely the most I have seen them actually play the game(the irony given the controversy surrounding him lol)

Drew - what made you feel a sense of panic from N_M? Him being unusually active (by N_M's standards) or something else?

[Snow2697]

I actually think NM actually is scum here, there is definitely a sense of panic from them.

And this is definitely the most I have seen them actually play the game(the irony given the controversy surrounding him lol)

Drew - what made you feel a sense of panic from N_M? Him being unusually active (by N_M's standards) or something else?

Explain why you’re asking this right after he answers

You mean "why am I asking if Drew's post contains the answer"? Drew has had had experience with N_M, he referred to that experience and somewhat defended N_M at first, but then called him a panicked scum. I wonder whether there is anything specific save for N_M's unusual activity. And yes, I suspect a Drew-N_M team.

[Snow2697]

I’d like to know if any of Snow’s reads have changed.

Need to do a VC analysis myself. Tentatively I would still townread Fancy (prob even more) and Solon and may be Jackson. At least reluctant to vote Jackson today.

Will look at Drew-Malachai-Kay. Malachai has been my TR, but Drew's train, which formed and dissolved so quickly, needs some thought.

[Snow2697]

1. Malachai started an attack on me after my comments on Fancy’s post and voted me. Before that his vote was in N_M.

2. The VC as per 1351 was:

Not_Mafia (3): Solon, JacksonVirgo, Doctor Drew E-2
Snow2697 (3): FancyPants, Malachai, KayJayQueue E-2
Solon (1): Snow2697
Doctor Drew (1): Not_Mafia
Not Voting (1): GuyInFreezer

3. GiF gave 5 locked towns in his 1343 (Jackson, Malachai, Kay, Snow, Solon). Drew called N_M scum in 1373. Jackson wrote in 1123: “No longer want Snow, I dont think people are feeling Fancy rn”.

4. By 1374 I retracted my vote vs Solon and voted Drew. 2 minutes later in the next post Malachai voted Drew and claimed Drew-Jackson scumteam.

5. VC as per 1379:

Not_Mafia (3): Solon, JacksonVirgo, Doctor Drew E-2
Doctor Drew (3): Not_Mafia, Snow2697, Malachai E-2
Snow2697 (2): FancyPants, KayJayQueue
Not Voting (1): GuyInFreezer

6. GiF voted Drew putting him at E-1, then revoked and voted N_M, Malachai was upset. Then Kay hammered N_M.

My views.

1. After 1351 VC I was probably at little risk of being limmed. I had 3 votes, Drew’s and Solon’s votes seemed locked at N_M, GiF and Jackson didn’t want to vote me.

2. The only other options could be N_M and Drew, although the prospects of Drew’s train seemed slim.

3. Fancy wrote in his 1262: “Drew - prob town: I've turned around on Drew, but it might just be that I like the way he thinks and posts - meh.” Had he been scum, I don’t think he would have called me locked scum and Drew “prob town”. A better option would have been to allow himself a degree of freedom to choose whom to lim to save for N_M. He could have thought that Drew was not an option and that pushing me was better, but I doubt. So, Fancy calling Drew “prob town” makes Fancy even more townish for me.

4. Jackson and Solon – gave early votes to N_M. Jackson-scum could have pushed me, or at least could have left this possibility. Instead, his 1123 foreclose this. Solon – does not make any sense to do what he did had he been scum.

5. Kay - if there was real chance to vote out Drew after GiF’s vote switch, then Kay is locked town. As scum she would have waited, Malachai might have convinced someone (GiF?) to vote Drew, and then she could have reasonably joined Malachai vs Drew.
If there was no chance to collect votes vs Drew, then Kay can be scum who hammered her fellow scum to look townish.
Don’t want to touch Kay until I form view on this question. Her vote into me, even before I set out my views, looked bad.

6. Drew - suspect him, his team with N_M makes sense. But his 3rd vote against N_M seems premature. Why not just focus on me?
Malachai - his actions look bad in that he targeted me, and then switched to Drew when my push failed. But need to look at whether Roland/Malachai-N_M scum team is feasible.

So, my options are Drew/Malachai - Kay.

[Snow2697]

Malachai dipped off, Snow actively avoided it which I considered Townie at the time hence my shift I was refusing to explain in the moment. Solon as a counterwagon is strange, but the alternative was NM who would have been their partner in a scum snow world. The pivot to Drew is awful but it would also explain why that happened to begin with. One of malachai and snow are wolves and we have the freedom to chop down both. I want to chop down both.

I criticized Kay for picking easy targets and thought that I could not vote her or N_M because of this. I therefore chose Drew. He was less scummy for me than Kay (I called Drew sus and Kay scummy), but he was a tougher target and I don't think that there were real prospects of a train vs Drew before Malachai jumped on him after me (and after his heavy critique on me). I even complained at some point that Drew seemed untouchable.

[Snow2697]

before we end the day and I get nightkilled for being too town.

Self-fulfilling prophecy, RIP. You were too town for this game GIF!

So, do you think that I killed a "too town" player who called me "lock town" and stayed here with others? Like you who ask me a question and then vote me before I can even have a word?

Need to make a break until evening.

[Snow2697]

I voted you because your tentative analysis was that you still thought it could be me which I find a bit crazy. If this game is 2v7, I just hammered the first scum. I had no reason to do that if it’s my partner. I could’ve put my vote on Drew since he’d be gaining even more traction and he’d be at E-1 with my vote. Anyone that is still seriously thinks I’m scum…must think I’m the cockiness player ever to think I can 1v6 this game, be stubborn about wanting to be right about their day 1 reads, or is scum and still thinks I’m a viable push. Also you’re saying it wouldn’t make sense to kill the “too town” player that “locktowned” you when he did the exact same thing to me…a bit contradictory.

I find it funny that you want to townread the other player that has been keeping a vote on you most of day 1 but the person who took their vote off of you to HAMMER SCUM you still need to “think about”….just doesn’t make much sense to me. If you were a little more consistent, maybe I would just chalk it up to you having bad reads but they’re not just bad, they’re inconsistent. So yeah, I’m keeping my vote here currently.

I have explained my position on you in point 5 of my 1468. You have not responded to it.

[Snow2697]

I guess my thing with Solon is... He REALLY had it in for Not Mafia. Genuine irritation.

You could argue that he was genuinely pissed at his scummate, but IMO this all went down far too early in the game for things to have come to blows between them. Like that would have to be one UG-LY scum chat for him to be that genuinely upset with Not Mafia just halfway through day one.

The other possibility, then, is that he's faking the whole thing, but man he was so close to getting himself axed with what he was doing. I don't really buy that a guy puts himself on the line like that unless his feelings were genuine. I mean he even bashed the entire Mafiascum site... That doesn't seem like an act to me.

I scratched my head over his announcement but I feel like once I asked some questions and got answers, it felt to me like he was telling the truth. His overall thought process does make sense to me. If you're worried about targeting someone who could leave you dead, I can see why you'd choose an obvious target.

I'm off the Solon wagon unless someone's got a compelling argument otherwise.

I was kinda thinking he was just generally pissed off at NM because he was his buddy, and I think that was legit anger. But he wanted people to see it so if/when there was a flip of NM, people would have the same reaction as you, Malachi.

That being said, I totally get where you are coming from......and this really is a case of wifom at its finest lol

I can see an argument that Solon was angry with his scummate N_M, since in his opinion N_M was ruining scum game, and thus he referred to "win conditions" of town!N_M (while actually meaning scum!N_M) and that he created this "friendly town neighbour" story to counteract tracker or watcher. Have not thought about it, but not sure if I can buy it at this point.

[Snow2697]

Snow I don't get your case on Kay. It seems dependent on whether a train on Drew would have actually worked and whether Kay thought it would work, but how can any of us know whether it could or not? I feel like you're basing this on something unknowable.

Can you maybe explain better what you mean? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I think your first para puts the problem. Kay's status for me is dependent on whether Drew's train could have been renewed and it is true that it's hard to know for sure whether it could or not. But depending on the answer Kay is between previous "scummy" or sus and "locked town" on my scale. So, however the question may look like, the practical impact is huge, at least for me.

[Snow2697]

For real snow, I don't get your angle on Kay. You're saying, since she did not switch off her supposed teammate Not Mafia, that means she IS guilty? You're talking about me possibly convincing someone else to join the Drew wagon, and he goes to E-1, and you're saying if Kay then hammers him, then she's town? We don't have any idea yet what Drew's alignment is, so I don't follow that logic at all. You are totally on your own with whatever you're thinking here.

No. The point is that if Kay thought that you could have convinced someone (GiF?) to join the Drew wagon putting Drew at E-1, then scum!Kay would have waited for that and would have hammered town!Drew and would not have hammered NM. Why hammer her scumpartner if there are prospects to lim town? In this scenario there is almost no way Kay can be scum, so she is locked town.

If Kay thought that you could not have convinced anyone to join the Drew wagon, then the only lim option seems to be NM, so scum!Kay might have decided to hammer him herself to become more red. In this scenario Kay can be scum, so her NM hammer probably should not change a lot her status on my scale.

This is dependent on what Kay thought about the situation, which - as you have rightly pointed - is hard to assess.

[Snow2697]

Kay - I have explained my position on you above.
The reason why I townread Jackson from VC is that I think that he committed his vote to NM - something he would not have done as scum, since he would have reserved possibility to vote me or another town if there is opportunity.

[Snow2697]

BTW Kay - my position on you does not mean that I would call for your lime today. To the contrary, since there is scenario where you are locked town, I would be reluctant to do this.

[Snow2697]

No. The point is that if Kay thought that you could have convinced someone (GiF?) to join the Drew wagon putting Drew at E-1, then scum!Kay would have waited for that and would have hammered town!Drew and would not have hammered NM. Why hammer her scumpartner if there are prospects to lim town? In this scenario there is almost no way Kay can be scum, so she is locked town.

I mean...there are tons of problems with the angle you are working here. But first and foremost, if Kay swaps a vote to Drew, no WAY that "locks" her as town. If the scum team were Kay and Not Mafia, why on earth would it lock Kay as town for her to hammer a townie like Drew? Your logic makes zero sense.

On top of that, Kay cannot possibly know what other players are going to do with their votes, regardless of her alignment. Kay being scum does not somehow endow her with some superpower of being able to read players' minds and know exactly how they are going to vote in this way or another, so I haven't the slightest clue why you are even entertaining an angle like this. You keep on arguing that Kay might have waited for a player to do this or do that, but the fact remains that there's no way Kay could have known what we were up to, no matter what her alignment is.

Finally, "Kay would have waited for someone else to vote Drew before she did"...why? Why couldn't she just immediately switch over to Drew whenever she feels like it? If we're still going along with this theory that Kay is endowed with super-scum-powers that allow her to predict what other players can do, if she had a hunch that another player was going to hop on Drew, what does it matter if she's the 4th or 5th vote on him, if she knows he's going down anyway?

There are just so many problems with everything you're saying here; it is total nonsense if you ask me.

If Kay thought that you could not have convinced anyone to join the Drew wagon, then the only lim option seems to be NM, so scum!Kay might have decided to hammer him herself to become more red. In this scenario Kay can be scum, so her NM hammer probably should not change a lot her status on my scale.

You are effectively saying, since there is a possibility that Kay could have just hammered her partner, she deserves zero credit for being town. It doesn't work that way. She maybe does not deserve FULL town credit just for that, but she does absolutely deserve town credit for hammering scum.

Why aren't you giving more consideration to all the other attention she has given to Not Mafia? She was on his case pretty much all of Day 1. You keep looking at the final hours of Day 1 and refusing to analyze the rest of the day and you squeeze in this odd analysis that is only a microcosm of what should matter when you evaluate Kay.

She cast a vote on Not Mafia on March 4th that she didn't remove until 3 days later. She otherwise posted all over the place how Not Mafia is at the top of her list. Her story throughout Day 1 is consistent in labeling Not Mafia and you as her top town targets and considering everyone else to be town. I don't think she wavered hardly at all in labeling Not Mafia as scum.

This is dependent on what Kay thought about the situation, which - as you have rightly pointed - is hard to assess.

If it is "hard to assess", then for heaven's sake, please stop using it as a basis for any of your reads on her.

You are misreading me. I have never said that Kay hammering Drew makes her lock town.
It is her hammering NM makes her lock town IF in her view there was still possibility of you gathering votes in Drew.

[Snow2697]

In my view there is huge difference between Kay and Jackson.
Jackson effectively locked his vote into NM, thus limiting his ability to vote another player. Makes little sense if he is scum with NM.
Kay has not locked her vote into NM. Therefore additional analysis is required.

[Snow2697]

You are misreading me. I have never said that Kay hammering Drew makes her lock town.

Well then, I must be losing my mind, because that's exactly what you said right here:

Kay - if there was real chance to vote out Drew after GiF’s vote switch, then Kay is locked town.

There WAS a real chance to vote out Drew. She could have voted him to put him at E-1 and you admit yourself that there were other people willing to vote Drew. There was a "real chance", absolutely, 100% a "real chance" here, and you cannot convince anyone otherwise. The opportunity was there and the "real chance" was real indeed.

It is her hammering NM makes her lock town IF in her view there was still possibility of you gathering votes in Drew.

So, again, why even bother with a take like this, when she knows as well as the rest of us how likely it was that Drew would have been eliminated?

I don't think Kay was able to put Drew at E-1 where, as you say, she called me and NM scums. This would have put her under Drew's attack, which a player of her style should avoid. She could have hammered him if someone else put Drew at E-1. Thus, the query whether you could have collected this vote against Drew.
Whatever. Agree that Kay should be credited for her vote vs NM. I would range her between sus and locked town on my scale. She is not my priority for D2, and I think that her lime today would be mistake. I am also against Solon's lime today.

[Snow2697]

I don't think Kay was able to put Drew at E-1 where, as you say, she called me and NM scums. This would have put her under Drew's attack,

which a player of her style should avoid.

The bolded / italicized portion. Explain what you mean by that, please?

When a player, who aims at avoiding conflicts, sees Drew grilling Roland, she should try to stay as far away from Drew as possible.

So, you again try to get into a driving seat. But before you do that you - not me - should explain one thing. If I am scum, then Drew is town. If Drew is town, my vote into him was 2nd. I don't think that prospects of a train on Drew at that point were realistic. But just minutes after my 2nd vote vs town!Drew you put your 3rd (with scummy!me and scummy!NM) and you tried to lim Drew. So, instead of scum!NM you were collecting votes into town!Drew. How is it that I am scum and you are not? If I am scum on your case, then you are the scummiest player at the table.

[Snow2697]

I would range her between sus and locked town on my scale.

That’s pretty much the entire scale

But hey, if you’ll get off by back, I’ll take it lol

Fist, your status is within big range, but it depends on one specific factor, whatever the others think about this factor and its reliability. So, there is nothing funny.
Second, it's not the "entire scale", but rather extreme positions of the scale. So, your "entire scale" point is simply wrong.

[Snow2697]

I should take a break until night and can be hammered in between. So, this is my will (it's not binding of course).
Jackson - Solon - Fancy are the towniest players on my scale. I see skepticism about Fancy and Solon. So, I would stick to town!Jackson and follow his position if in doubt. If he decides to lim me, OK. This makes sense from town standpoint, I am at handicap due to RN play and will be suspicious forever, so this may clear the picture and help town focus on real targets. I want town to then look at Malachai - Kay - Drew in that order. If Jackson sees Kay as locked town, I do not mind. She should not be pressed without reason, I don't think she would be able to hold her ground against a large-scale attack. Drew still requires scrutiny.

[Snow2697]

Just think about my state of shock when I found myself at scum lurking slot together with NM where both of us were prime lim candidates.
Had to be a bit eccentric. Drew's lime was close, but ...
Considered surrender afterwards, but decided to give it a try. Was just thinking about a push into Malachai's slot, but Jackson was too quick.
GG, thank you to everyone.