Newbie 762 - OhGodMyVillage - Game Over

[Mastin]

Mastin: long is not always better. It can sometimes help to bullet points (like scien did) or make a short, concise post to clear things up.

I normally post a long post, and then give my summary of my thoughts near the end.

(or whatever their name was, you know who I mean anyway)

Crysnia is known for this. :/

Phily's case against me is that I post long, and that I agree with someone's current view of the game?

I believe so, yes.

[Santos]

santos: I'm quite happy with my vote on you. You say you are waiting for a scum slip, but how can you expect one to happen while you're *waiting* for them? Isn't the best way to get a scum slip to engage in as much conversation as possible?

You're clearly never going to understand how I play mafia. Why should I explain it anymore? Is that going to help you figure me out or what?

Also, having too much conversation tends to convolute conversation, hence why I am not asking for everyone to give us walls of text to search through as you appear to want. The simplest of posts can, just as well, prove to be scummy. Otherwise, I don't know how else to explain this to you.

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote Count:

5 to lynch

Mastin: 2 (Scien, Santos)
sirdanilot: 1 (Lleu)
PhilyEc: 1 (Barim)
Santos: 1 (sirdanilot)
Scien: 1 (PhilyEc)

Not Voting: 2 (Mastin, Crysnia)

Deadline: April 19th, 10:00 PM Eastern

Prodding Barim.

Crysnia has already been prodded and still has some time to return before I replace her.

Lleu is v/la and will not be replaced unless he fails to return when he told me he will.

[Scien]

This was still a random vote:

Unvote

I want to hear from the inactives before I place my real vote... but as it currently stands.
FoS Phily. I think everyone knows why... I just never explicitly fingered him.

[sirdanilot]

santos: I'm quite happy with my vote on you. You say you are waiting for a scum slip, but how can you expect one to happen while you're *waiting* for them? Isn't the best way to get a scum slip to engage in as much conversation as possible?

(1)You're clearly never going to understand how I play mafia. Why should I explain it anymore? Is that going to help you figure me out or what?

(2)Also, having too much conversation tends to convolute conversation, (3)hence why I am not asking for everyone to give us walls of text to search through as you appear to want. The simplest of posts can, just as well, prove to be scummy. Otherwise, I don't know how else to explain this to you.

1. Have you even

tried

? I am really dying to hear your explanation! If you decide that you refuse to even try, then it seems my vote is going absolutely nowhere else for now.
2. 30 pages day ones tend to convolute conversation. A normal to high activity level like this one doesn't. Thinking it does is anti-town.
3. not really. Another reason to keep my vote; you're either not reading what I said or just twisting my words to your advantage. Probably both, in fact.

Mastin: long is not always better. It can sometimes help to bullet points (like scien did) or make a short, concise post to clear things up.

Bottom line is, it's okay that you don't like the long posts. What is not okay, however, is that you don't even make an effort to read them. You can tell people to post summaries, and cut down their post length a bit, but you still have to dig through the walls of text whether you like it or not, and you cannot just dismiss an entire page of very valuable discussion just because the posts are too long.

Scien, stop sitting on the fence. You have a clear suspect now, don't you?

[Scien]

Fine... if you insist.

Vote: PhilyEc

For the reasons I have been harping about. I won't recap them here to save space

However I still hold I would like to hear from the inactives before we do anything drastic... at least to get some info from them in day 1. And I WILL temporarily remove my vote if we haven't heard from them and we are getting close to a lynch.

[Santos]

sirdanilot, after having played over 30 mafia games it tends to get old to read newbie walls of text. I am playing in these newbie games so I don't get shunned out of the themed games because ('I have no experience and must have at least 5 newbie games played before joining outside games'). [/outside discussion]

You think I have not read the walls of text in this game? I would have to be a complete idiot not to. I have read them, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm all for just looking around and seeing where the scum are hiding. IMO, scum's number one mistake is to try and lead the town. Next is to lurk. Third would be a scum who is able to play with the rest of the town but never give away too much that they are not on town's side. Sometimes this can be spotted with WIFOM. Other times it can be spotted with simple questions like 'Hey guys, who should we pressure?'

So if you think I'm ignoring this game because of long posts and unfortunate coding mistakes, you're wrong.

At this point in the game it actually would be useful to go back through the pages now and try and find who is the scummiest poster and then lynch them. This is what I like to do.

[PhilyEc]

Phily: I do not like at all how you are dismissing the begining discussion stages of the game, and in my eyes it is very anti town to do so, and thereby quite scummy.

Their gameplay is something I dont like. Scum team be grandstanding and I am adamant that Scien is scum. As for Mastins it could be a case of him being leeched off. Scien jumped to defenses the second I posted negativity towards Mastins which just screams scum trying to look as town as possible and reflect suspicion.

Isn't this exactly whats happened? I never address Scien until he did the favour first and then after he got HEAVILY involved. I even got double teamed at some point on page 4 for a good few posts~

Either
1) Hes scum defending a town player.
2) Scum team have stupidly revealed themselves through buddying.
3) Both are town and merely semantic fanboys. (Unlikely due to context of disagreement being so dwelled upon).

Note, I've never demanded restriction of posts. I've voiced my dislike of how the Day has begun and how awkward the game will become

in my opinion

. Early grandstanding = ambitious scum. Got it yet?

[Moves onto read page 5]

[Scien]

Um... there is still the same things I disagree with the above two posts. And I might post on it when I have more time. But this one is worth posting now:

Either
1) Hes scum defending a town player.
2) Scum team have stupidly revealed themselves through buddying.
3) Both are town and merely semantic fanboys. (Unlikely due to context of disagreement being so dwelled upon).

I know that you are just simplifying things. But just because I am townie doesn't mean that Mastin is. Don't jump the gun there. You know what I'm going to tell you, that I have a protown role. But if the town is truly irritated at my play and when I flip townie, don't go and assume Mastin is town as well. Just saying.

[PhilyEc]

Um... there is still the same things I disagree with the above two posts. And I might post on it when I have more time. But this one is worth posting now:

Either
1) Hes scum defending a town player.
2) Scum team have stupidly revealed themselves through buddying.
3) Both are town and merely semantic fanboys. (Unlikely due to context of disagreement being so dwelled upon).

I know that you are just simplifying things. But just because I am townie doesn't mean that Mastin is. Don't jump the gun there. You know what I'm going to tell you, that I have a protown role. But if the town is truly irritated at my play and when I flip townie, don't go and assume Mastin is town as well. Just saying.

Wait..I think I've been tunneling too much too. I'm looking at this game as figuring out wheter both of you are one of 1-3 but only when you addressed that situation and asked town to not 'mislynch' Mastins immediately did I realise this town you've addressed has people merely watching our arguement.

In the end we disagree on semantics and no one else felt added anything to the dispute.

In summary, high chance the readers are mainly scum. Whos lurking at the moment (incl active lurks)

[Santos]

Pffft, insinuating that I am lurking. *glowers*

[Scien]

Sorry Phily, and I am not trying to be difficult. But can you repeat your last post. I think I might have a general idea of what you are trying to say, but want to make sure with your own words. I currently am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say.

I guess the things I am not understanding are the term '1-3', what 'that situation' is, did I tell people to not mislynch Mastin (I thought my last post was doing the opposite, telling people to still look at Mastin if I was mislynched). I guess the last two sentences are saying that the current inactives are now getting scummy in your eyes?

Like I said, I'm not trying to be a bastard by bugging you, but just was having a hard time understanding your phrases.

[Santos]

bump

.

Sirdanilot?

[sirdanilot]

sirdanilot, after having played over 30 mafia games it tends to get old to read newbie walls of text. I am playing in these newbie games so I don't get shunned out of the themed games because ('I have no experience and must have at least 5 newbie games played before joining outside games'). [/outside discussion]

You think I have not read the walls of text in this game? I would have to be a complete idiot not to. I have read them, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm all for just looking around and seeing where the scum are hiding. IMO, scum's number one mistake is to try and lead the town. Next is to lurk. Third would be a scum who is able to play with the rest of the town but never give away too much that they are not on town's side. Sometimes this can be spotted with WIFOM. Other times it can be spotted with simple questions like 'Hey guys, who should we pressure?'

Okay, so you have read the walls of text (to be honest I did expect you to have done at least that). But all you have to say about it that they are walls of text?

What doesn't sit right with me is that you say that they are walls of text, and that they are not useful at all in scumhunting (although I'm not sure you said actually that but you seem to imply it). You can't just wait and sit around until scum does one of the above three things. Or well, maybe they will start lurking, but lurking is not a viable scum tell, especially in that scenario, as newbie town would lurk too and possibly even flake out.

Activity is very important for the town to win.

So if you think I'm ignoring this game because of long posts and unfortunate coding mistakes, you're wrong.

At this point in the game it actually would be useful to go back through the pages now and try and find who is the scummiest poster and then lynch them. This is what I like to do.

then go ahead!

[OhGodMyLife]

Seeking replacement for Crysnia.

[OhGodMyLife]

Papa Zito is replacing Crysnia. Thanks Papa Zito!

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito is replacing Crysnia. Thanks Papa Zito!

You bet!

Hey guys! This is my first game, and I'm excited. I'll review the thread and get back to y'all with my thoughts soon.

[Scien]

Welcome to the game!

And happy B-day OGML.

[Papa Zito]

LOL. I feel like I was tricked somehow. I came in thinking hey, only 5 pages, sweet!

Okay, so I've gone through everything and here are my reads so far.

Actives

1. Mastin - The "self-voter". I thought he defended himself well (I was satisfied with his initial response), and he's been actively scumhunting. Good pro-town vibe.
2. Santos - Cautious player, hasn't done any scumhunting thus far. I can understand your cautiousness by the way, I play the same.
3. PhilyEc - The "tl;dr" fan. Just strikes me as frustrated. Not much in the way of scumhunting.
4. Ubaten - Seemed kinda desperate to please starting out, which was weird. The vote was also kinda weird. The lack of scumhunting is worrisome.
5. Sirdanilot - Immediately voted both Mastin and Santos after their very first post, which is bizarre to me.
6. Scien - Oh boy. Attacked Mastin for the self-vote, attacked Ubaten for the odd vote, attacked PhilyEc for venting, attacked Santos for being cautious. Good God man.

Lurkers

7. Lleu - Lurker, though tried not to look like one by chiming in a couple times.
8. Barim - Lurker. Weird for an IC isn't it?

So, to distill:

The order above is in order of most pro-town to most anti-town. I think Mastin is doing a great job trying to generate data. Ubaten, PhilyEc and Santos seem like they were bludgeoned to death early by being forced to defend every little thing they said, which, incidentally, is a great way to stifle scumhunting. Sirdanilot's voting is highly suspicious - either he's really aggressive or he wants to start bandwagons. Scien, wow, Scien is attacking everything in sight. On the surface it looks like aggressive scumhunting but when it's over nit-picky things and when it doesn't stop, well, I think I have to

vote: Scien

.

One more note: Dollars to donuts, one of our lurkers is mafia. I don't know which though, so I'll just

FoS: Lleu, Barim

for now.

Anticipating wall of text in 3, 2, 1...

[Scien]

I don't know about wall of text... but I will give a defense for myself, as well as comment on some of your other points.

1. Mastin - The "self-voter". I thought he defended himself well (I was satisfied with his initial response), and he's been actively scumhunting. Good pro-town vibe.

I generally agree with all these statements. I had to give Mastin a good grilling in order to verify that his 'I used the self-vote as a scum hunting tactic' defense seemed sound. I didn't catch any inconsistencies, and also him using that as a defense seemed unlikely so I believe him.

5. Sirdanilot - Immediately voted both Mastin and Santos after their very first post, which is bizarre to me.

Hmm. Yes. But he also seems to value the vote very highly. I tend to use it to back up discussion, but he seems to be the kind of guy that wants your vote where you are looking at the moment.

6. Scien - Oh boy. Attacked Mastin for the self-vote, attacked Ubaten for the odd vote, attacked PhilyEc for venting, attacked Santos for being cautious. Good God man.

Yep, its how I get information out of people. Attacking seems kind of harsh here in my opinion by the way. I want people to tell me the motives behind their actions in their own words. If I think they are still suspect I continue asking them questions. If they 'stay the course' in my mind, and what they say is the logic behind their actions meshes with what they have said in the past about their motives, its how I get a feel for the truthiness so to speak. I look at everyone, and when I see something funny I ask about it. I don't really think that's a scummy thing to do, but I'll leave that for you to explain. Its not going to stop how I play in any case.

7. Lleu - Lurker, though tried not to look like one by chiming in a couple times.
8. Barim - Lurker. Weird for an IC isn't it?

Lleu is V/LA. Did you miss that (I assume this is true), or is your comment more subversive. Barim has been prodded and apparently has not shown up yet. I suspect he will be replaced soon.

Scien, wow, Scien is attacking everything in sight. On the surface it looks like aggressive scumhunting but when it's over nit-picky things and when it doesn't stop, well, I think I have to vote: Scien.

In day one you don't have many actions to look at. Sometimes you need to ask about the nit-picky stuff. If I see an action I don't understand, or a stance that I don't agree with, that person gets a question. If I get a response that falls into the same categories, either I don't understand, or a stance that I don't agree with, that person gets another question. This generates discussion. Based on this discussion I can get a feel for the player's motives. Sometimes people shake around a bit over nit-picky things and are not careful about how they answer. This is a sign of scumminess, as townies will just tell the truth and have no need for shakeiness.

But above all else, my examining of peoples ideas and motives gets info into the forum for examining later if necessary. I fail to see how me questioning many people's actions, over what you would call nit-picky stuff is a scum tell.

Why do you think that my discussion is scummy? Why do you think its a bad thing to look at all townies, as opposed to focusing on one?

[Scien]

And for the double post!

6. Scien - Oh boy. Attacked Mastin for the self-vote, attacked Ubaten for the odd vote, attacked PhilyEc for venting, attacked Santos for being cautious. Good God man.

I never really even questioned Ubaten, I think you have me confused for someone else. Everyone attacked Mastin for that vote. Phily and Santos were questioned by me for the same reasons. A failure to understand their hatred of long posts.

Many people have asked questions to multiple people in this game. For instance lets take the top of your list, Mastin, and look at who he was questioning:
During an initial defense period he starts examining Ubaten. He presses him fairly hard, and in fact I think he still has questions out to him.
A few posts later starts questioning Santos.
Presses Phil in his next post.
Really presses Phil with a HUGE post, then follows with another couple posts for Santos.

IMO I did similar:
Started off pressuring Mastin hard.
Questioned Ubaten a bit, but mostly due to confusion
Once Santos showed up, questioned him about his intro posts and views. This continues.
Phily Pipes up, and I have questions about his intro posts and views. This continues and actually gets pretty heated... we are both voting each other at the moment I believe.
I still have questions out to Santos. I think.

I fail to see the big difference between Mastin's scumhunting, and my nit-picking. Actually I don't care much. But I would like to hear you explain the difference. This will give you more insight to your motives. I'm just questioning how one of our actions is good enough to place them at the top of your list when the other's actions is bad enough to place them at the bottem. Everyone has been looking at the whole towns actions. And quite frankly that is the way its supposed to be. Again why do you disagree?

[Papa Zito]

7. Lleu - Lurker, though tried not to look like one by chiming in a couple times.
8. Barim - Lurker. Weird for an IC isn't it?

Lleu is V/LA. Did you miss that (I assume this is true), or is your comment more subversive.

Missed it, but I'll stand by my statement. Four days, five posts: 1 confirm, 1 random vote, 1 roll vs role post, and 2 that had something to do with what's going on.

Why do you think that my discussion is scummy?

You and I seem to agree on Mastin, so let me use him as an example.

- You posted a novella in response to his random self-vote (22).
- He responds in 23. Note: As I read through, I was satisfied with his answer here.
- You continue in 26
- And 31
- And 36

That's a lot just to talk about a throwaway vote.

Anyway, it's not one by itself, but it's the pattern. You've hit everyone who's dared to post anything substantial (Ubaten was posts 31 and 39 btw). It looks like you're:

a. Desperately trying to start a bandwagon;
b. Stifling discussion;
c. Trying to lead/control the town

I'm just questioning how one of our actions is good enough to place them at the top of your list when the other's actions is bad enough to place them at the bottem

1. The majority of Mastin's posts were defensive. The majority of yours are offensive.
2. Mastin's hunting consists (mostly) of poking holes in the arguments against him and judging reaction. Which he does exceedingly well. You, OTOH, immediately jump onto opening statements or other conversations.

This conversation is kinda my argument in microcosm. Your defense to my points is basically offense.

[Scien]

Missed it, but I'll stand by my statement. Four days, five posts: 1 confirm, 1 random vote, 1 roll vs role post, and 2 that had something to do with what's going on.

Yep, we've called him inactive before. But its not really lurking if you are not around.

That's a lot just to talk about a throwaway vote.

Maybe. But I needed to be satisfied that his defense was legit. I was not willing to take it at face value. He needed to explain why he used that tactic, it was not typical. It is however a tactic that under a different light could be scummy. I pressed because I had not considered that a tactic like that would be used by a townie. I continued because I was getting a feel for it, and trying to determine if Mastin's claim of using it from a townie perspective could hold water.

It looks like you're:

a. Desperately trying to start a bandwagon;
b. Stifling discussion;
c. Trying to lead/control the town

Perhaps, but there are other possibilities of what I was trying to do by examining the people that are around to talk to. I've already said the one that I am doing. You can buy it or not, but it is to look at the people who are posting and to examine if what they are posting makes sense. Examining motives.

1. The majority of Mastin's posts were defensive. The majority of yours are offensive.

Yep that would be the tactic that I was examining when I was questioning Mastin. It's not typical for a townie to try and encourage people to pursue them in order to try and weed out scum. At least in a newbie game. It might be more prevalent in other games, I frankly don't know.

You, OTOH, immediately jump onto opening statements or other conversations.

And then examine what is said, to determine if it fits right in my mind with the said player's mindset, and claimed goals.

This conversation is kinda my argument in microcosm. Your defense to my points is basically offense.

Well, ok. I don't really know where to start on this so I'll just dump my few thoughts. Sorry if they are incoherent.

Quite frankly I am not 'defending defensively' because I don't know how to defend against 'You look at too many people and ask too many questions'. Yes you are right, I suppose it can look like I am looking for the easiest target. I can tell you I'm not, but I can not prove it. I have already said if someone's play doesn't make sense to me, I ask about it and will continue asking until I think I know where the person is coming from. I don't know how to say it more clearly than that.

I have defended people as well, but only when I believe people are mistaking others words. I have got called out for defending Mastin. I have reworded questions for Ubaten when neither party seemed to understand the confusion. I did not push for a lynch when it was easy. This is because I am currently examining, and not 'attacking'.

I still don't know why you think it would be better if I examined people through defense as opposed to offense. I believe both generate discussion.

I don't know why you think that desperately trying to start a bandwagon. If this was the case I would have had a few good opportunities.

I don't know why you think that I am stifling conversation by getting people to explain their actions. On the contrary here I think I am promoting it, even if the party has to defend.

I don't have the vaguest of how I could be controlling anyone here. I have never once tried to force anyone's opinion.

I am looking at the explanations and reactions to my questions for my benefit mainly. The fact that they are in print for the town to read is also a perk, but you have to make the judgments on your own. I won't tell you how to think.

[sirdanilot]

Wow, huge playstyle clash in this game. Let's try not to get too carried away in this guys; you should be looking at members of your own 'playstyle group' as well (as in, I should look at mastin and scien and santos should look at phily and papa zito etc. etc.)

To be honest, I don't think that scien's play style is scummy. Yes, he flip flops with his vote a lot. Yes, he is aggressive. But does that mean he is scum? To me it looks like he is genuinely scumhunting.

The only argument against him that I do understand is that he would be trying to control the town. It seems that he is indeed in a leading position. I have not decided yet that I find that scummy, but who knows.

As for me, I really don't like how you find me voting Mastin and Santos for their first posts 'bizarre' and then not talk about the content of those posts and/or the reasons I had. It looks like you are just picking out things without backing it up.

[Scien]

To be honest, I don't think that scien's play style is scummy. Yes, he flip flops with his vote a lot.

I have voted two times in this game. The random vote, and then the person I was investigating, and the last only because you pressured me to place one as opposed to holding for a while before I applied more pressure. I assume you mean I flip flop with who I question?

...then not talk about the content of those posts and/or the reasons I had.

I agree with this for the most part. It would be nice to see the actual quotes he is talking about. He mentioned a few that I had in regards to Ubaten. But both of those were simple questions that didn't get too far, because I didn't feel the need to ask further questions for explanation. However apparently they qualify as an 'attack' on Ubaten. I doubt the rest of the town would agree that it was truly an attack if they had the text in front of them. I also would like to see the Sirdanilot quotes that you are curious about Papa Zito. I might see something I didn't see before.