Mini 815 - Lazy Neighborhood Mafia (Game Over)

[halflight007]

Hey guys. Hope for a good game by all. That said, let's get to work:

@Sajin:

Second what Ash asked. Did falcomagno specifically say he was contacting others?

@Timeater:

I never got a response from you regarding my second PM. Did something come up, or is it something else entirely?

Also:

Mod: What are the rules regarding PMs? What is and isn't acceptable in-thread?

[halflight007]

What? We were allowed to talk pre-game? Like a Night 0?

During confimation phase, you can talk by PMs with the two people you are connected with. If your role PM allows you to talk with some other people than just your neighbors, you can do that too.

Hope that helps. Why? Didn't your neighbors attempt to contact you at all?

[halflight007]

Vote: TIMEATER

for being my other neighbor, I suppose.

Did Timeater ever talk to you during the Confirmation stage? If so, how extensive was your conversation?

[halflight007]

I wish people would read other people's posts.

I didn't realize that Timeater was Iecerint's other neighbor at first. I apologize.

@Iecerint:

So if neither of your neighbors contacted you, why didn't you take it upon yourself to contact them? Your post seems to indicate that you knew that we were allowed to talk during the Confirmation stage. Was there a reason you were waiting for your partners to come to you?

[halflight007]

Did he communicate with you, halflight?

He sent me one PM. I sent him another he never replied to.

[halflight007]

I'm a newer player and have only prior joined games that begin with a /confirm-in-thread phase. Because the mod used the term "confirmation phase" to describe the time when PMs could be exchanged, I thought the early game phases might go [pick-up PM -> /confirm in thread -> RVS -> normal gameplay]. It did occur to me that the first two stages were one and the same, but I decided I'd wait until I was contacted to avoid unwittingly cheating.

Do you have play experience with him? I'm trying to determine why he would send you one PM and not send me one.

I have about as much experience as you do. I got nightkilled on my first game.

And I suspect he only replied because I was proactive and sent him a PM first. But I had something I wanted to discuss with him, and he never replied to it.

[halflight007]

@Iecerint:

That is correct. I initiated contact with Timeater. As of now, he has not replied, and I was interested in his view on something. The fact that he did not reply to me regarding it at all makes me suspicious.

@falkomagno:

That's funny, because MafiaSSK sent me the very same opening PM, and I had a very different experience with him.

In your post regarding him, you said this:

I didn't see MafiaSSk willing to justify my messages, but contributing to a general bad idea from me. that's scum, because he could say that I was confusing him with a mod, or something relative with the messages between us, but no, he chose to let me to look bad, knowing more that what he say to everybody.

I would be very interested in seeing examples of how MafiaSSK was "making you look bad" and unwilling to "justify your message."

If you replied at all to MafiaSSK, then I'd like to see the chain of correspondence you shared. We are allowed to quote PMs that we sent to one another, and I think if we saw the actual conversation that went on between you two, it would clear a lot of things up.

[halflight007]

The fact that he is voting for me tells you something??

No, the fact that you are attempting to tar him as scum because of your interactions told me something, because the both of us had two very different experiences with him. I want to find out why that is, and which one of us is off or lying.

Ok there we go:

Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:24 am

Why did you in for this game?

Notice that in fact he contact me first

I don't see why the fact that he contacted you first is suspicious. This is a mafia where we are allowed to talk to our neighbors. Maybe it's just me, but communicating with and taking advantage of that would be a chance most people jump at.

Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:46 am

what do you mean?

I was confirming, that's all.

Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:22 pm

Why did you in for this game?

Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:45 pm

oh forget about my last post...I was confusing mod...sorry

Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:04 pm

xD

How is him replying with an emoticon scummy?

At this point I didn't now that actually, mafia IS my neighbour, not the mod.

The problem is, you should have gotten

two

emails. One of them would have been from Tarbells. Did you get the PM from Tarbells, and did you read it?

When I realized that, an after connect his messages from the name that I was looking for, I wrote this

Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:11 pm

so...who are your top suspect so far??

That was the same question that I did to Sajin

And he didn't respond to you after that?

From this, as I said before, just remains the bad taste of the behaviour of Mafia, reckless to let you know that I was confusing,

Why are MafiaSSK's actions in bad taste? From what it sounds like, MafiaSSK was having an "LOL" reaction at your mixup, and assumed that you hadn't read the thread yet.

@MafiaSSK:

Is what Falko said true? What is your side of the story?

@Sajin:

You said that you knew Falko was talking with others, correct? Why would you draw the assumption that he was talking to scum, especially so early on in the game?

From what I've been reading, it seems that Falko has some problems with grammar and spelling (please don't be offended, Falko). Not that it's important in and of itself, but it might be very easy to take things out of context and twist Falko's words to make him sound as though he made a slip-up.

I'd like to see the PM you are referencing, Saijin, if that's not too much to ask.

[halflight007]

About my corresoindence with sajin, he start, and I've reply him as well. Note that I don't know how to search certain player, but I do know how to reply messages. I didn't say that I can not REPLY, with the "reply" button in the corner of a PM. I can do that. It's about the search fucntion, that I'ven't figure it now how it works.

What confuses me is this, Falko: Why would you need the search function at all?

[halflight007]

Judging from a lot of the posts, Ash, it appears that several people might have missed that.

Hang on, I'm going to take a look at the chart again.

Iecerint and ZONEACE. Were either of you aware that you were allowed to communicate with your partners? If so, why did you not do so with Ash?

[halflight007]

I highly recommend you to check the interpretation from Iecernt, he understand the hole situation atm. Summarizing, I'm not accusing SSK from any message between us, not his content or any other interpretation from that, but the fact that, once Sajin misteriously knows that I had a correspondence with SSK, and put me in suspicious, SSK instead of putting in public all the information about it, he just said:

I will agree with you and

Vote:Falko

I was the one who contacted him. He hadn't contacted me.

That is scum to me, since at this point he could say what he knows, being pro town, instead of being opportunistic, keep information and add to my BW.

I see now. Taking another look at the chart, I finally see where you're going.

MafiaSSk: Why did you lie about Falko contacting you?

From the exchange, it's very clear that Falko PMed you.

One of you might be lying. MafiaSSK, what do you have to say? Why did you lie in your vote post about Falko not contacting you?

[halflight007]

All right, I'm going to attempt to analyze this whole clusterf**k from the beginning, while we still have pages in the single digits.

Due to conversations had pre game there is a high chance my neighbor is scum. He was talking to other people yet asked me how I was able to talk to him. I told him I searched his name up with the search function and got the pm link from his profile. Only then was his other neighbor contacted likely. Therefore the person/people he was talking to are likely scum. Thanks for the slip.

Sajin gets a bit of a pass on this, because at this point, we didn't know we were allowed to quote PMs to and from our neighbors. Still, this is really rather brief, considering that it's a serious accusation so early in the game.

The next time this gets brought up is on page 2, where Sajin does, finally, provide evidence:

not really. Waitingto the game to proper start I say. And you...what about you.

And plus, how can you contact me?? I tried contact my another neighbour and I could'n see how

Let's analyze the key words in this: "Neighbor. Another."

Yet Sajin asserts that:

He was talking to other people yet asked me how I was able to talk to him.

It seems pretty clear to me that Sajin was just trying to talk to his other neighbor, but didn't understand how. Did Sajin misunderstand, or was he trying to twist his neighbor's words?

Then comes what is, so far, the most puzzling action:

I will agree with you and Vote:Falko

I was the one who contacted him. He hadn't contacted me.

Yet in post 49, Falko posts not only MafiaSSK's PMs, but his own replies as well.

MafiaSSK has not yet come up to reply to this, or my question as to why he lied.

Then:

My information was that I was not the first person he talked to and then he messaged me saying I am not sure how to talk to my partners. I took this as one of the following 3 things:

He is messaging someone he is not supposed to (unlikely)
He was previously talking to his partner (eveidently he might of been, but that means he lied to me later)

Or he was talking to scum(my assumption during the night)

How did I not have access to this information?

Why would Sajin make such an assumption, especially when it seems pretty clear from the PM that he was just trying to talk to his other neighbor? To me, it looks as though Falko's native language isn't English, and he's having trouble articulating himself.

If Sajin can point out the exact part in the PM that made him think Falko looked like scum, I might be less suspicious.

To Summarize:

Right now, Falko no longer comes off as suspicious to me. He comes off to me as someone whose English is not very good, and therefore some of what he wants to say gets lost in translation. I think he is a victim of somebody who wants to take advantage of that. Which leads me to Sajin.

Sajin might be genuine. Still, Falko's message, to me, seems pretty clear. I might be mixing things up. I might be misinterpreting Sajin. Sajin could have misread Falko's message and be genuinely trying to scumhunt. Or he could be twisting a poorly written message to his own devices. Whatever the case, I want to see the part in the PM he quoted that made him think Falko was talking to scum.

MafiaSSK, without a doubt, looks the most suspicious right now. He lied about his correspondence with Falko. And he has not yet resurfaced to answer.

I want MafiaSSK's reason why.

MafiaSSK, why did you lie about Falko not contacting you?

I also think posting the entire correspondences would be a good idea, so seconding Y.
_____________

Is this all right with everyone? If I'm off, feel free to give me advice. This is only my second game here.

[halflight007]

Mmm. It's been years since I've had grammar lessons. Still, couldn't "hadn't" here refer to the fact that the period where we could communicate had passed? If he'd posted "hasn't", then wouldn't it indicate that we could still communicate outside the thread, which isn't the case?

I agree with you on wanting more info, which is why I have not threatened anyone with an FoS or a vote yet. We don't have enough information, or people posting. To do these things right now seems anti-town to me, especially since it seems we have a lurker or two.

[halflight007]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluperfect_tense

The pluperfect action occurs prior to the past action. The past action is SSK contacting falko. The (hypothetical) pluperfect action is falko contacting SSK. The pluperfect action is negated. Therefore, the two sentences mean that falko did not contact SSK prior to SSK contacting falko; in other words, SSK contacted falko first. As I understand it, "hasn't" would mean that falko had never at any point up to the present contacted SSK, which would hypothetically be a lie as we have explicit evidence to the contrary in the form of PMs from falko.

This has gotten a little esoteric; for that matter, people use pluperfect tense non-standardly all the time. However, since assuming that SSK used it standardly makes the most sense in the context of what he and others have already said, I think it's reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt there.

Oooooh.

Still, yeah, agreed. I want to see MafiaSSK's response. Whether or not this is a matter of simple semantics remains to be seen.

[halflight007]

From: Sajin
To: falkomagno
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:33 pm
Subject: yo

hello, are you scum in Tarballs mafia game?

If you had ad adjective to describe the attitude of your role what would it be?

Something about this PM feels...off to me. For one thing, it has a lot of errors that, from seeing Sajin's typing so far, I wouldn't expect him to make. For another, I can't see why Sajin would ask something like that, especially in a first text.

Sajin, if you could post your correspondence with Falko, it would really, really help clear things up for me. Because that above PM, from what I've seen of your grammar and spelling, does not sound like you. It might be. But I have to see what you wrote.

And to avoid tunneling:

Timeater hasn't shown up yet. Which isn't surprising, he might be doing something over the weekend - but why didn't he ask for a V/LA then? Why doesn't he post something, especially in response to my questions?

[halflight007]

MafiaSSK, without a doubt, looks the most suspicious right now. He lied about his correspondence with Falko. And he has not yet resurfaced to answer.

I have a life. I can not respond immeadietly.

All right. I will take your word for it for now, but I'm going to think this over again.

@ Sajin:

You look right now as if you're the only one who hasn't posted your PMs. Why? If Falko won't show us, then it's up to you to clear your own name.[/u]

[halflight007]

Actually, falko already posted his correspondence; he just screwed up the quotes. Check the last page. I do think that Sajin should either post his conflicting PMs or agree with what falko posted and show why it's scummy.

That was what I was indicating. I don't think that first PM is from Sajin. Take a look at the grammar and the wording. Then take a look at Sajin's other posts, and even the other PMs Falko sent him. There is a marked difference there.

I asked Sajin to post his first PM to Falko so that we can get that cleared up. I want to confirm that what Falko said Sajin posted is really what Sajin posted.

@ Everyone -- Did any neighbors of lurkers (e.g. killa seven) interact with said lurkers during Night 0?

I interacted with Timeater, as I said before. Just the one PM, though, and I initiated contact.

[halflight007]

I would like more people to comment on the issues at hand before I post anything else on that topic.

Any particular reason? Because if it were me, I'd think I'd rather get it cleared up as soon as possible.

That said, the more info we have, the better. And that only comes from getting as many viewpoints as possible.

@Mod- Can we get prods going soon? I know its the holiday weekend but my other neighbor has picked up my PMs but not said anything in return.

It's only been...what, 48 hours? The game started on the 2nd and carried over for the 3rd...and since weekends count as 12 hours, I think the earliest the mod can send stuff out is after Sunday.

[halflight007]

@ halflight

hello, are you scum in Tarballs mafia game?

If you had ad adjective to describe the attitude of your role what would it be?

I assume you're referring to the word "attitude" ? To be honest, I hadn't noticed that. That does seem more like falko's language than Sajin's. If falko invented this PM, it would also explain what appears to be strange rolefishing on Sajin's part. I have a hard time believing that scum would fabricate something so easily shown to be false; then again, I also have a hard time believing that scum would take the kind of gamble Sajin would hypothetically be taking right now.

It's not just the word "attitude." Take a look at the typos, the sentence structures, and the use (or lack thereof) of grammar.

Let's take a look at one of Falko's recent posts:

So, you just decide to not take all my message, but a part of it. The part that you decide suspicious. Maybe the another part confirms that my message was directed to sajin undoubtedly, but that doesn't matter.

Now let's compare that to "Sajin's" first PM:

hello, are you scum in Tarballs mafia game?

If you had ad adjective to describe the attitude of your role what would it be?

It might just be me, but the flavor of these two snippets feel the same to me. Both of them lack the finesse and skill with the English language that Sajin has. In the first sentence of the PM, he misuses the comma after "hello," which he also does in the snippet of the post I showed you. And then there is the "another part" in the section I took and the "describe the attitude." Both of them are misuses of words in the English language that would be simple for a non-native speaker to mistake.

I would have to re-read some of Falko's earlier posts to see if there's a difference in his posting style before and after I brought up the holes.

Maybe Falko didn't fabricate the PM. But if that's so, then

that doesn't explain why Sajin's PM and posting style are so vastly different.

And Sajin, this irritates me as well, that you are refusing to confirm or deny that this PM is yours. You're acting as though you have something to hide, and right now I have no idea what that is.

Both of you need to address this. One of you is lying, or both of you, or neither of you. But unless you can answer these questions, I have no reason to trust either of you right now:

@Falko:

How do you explain the similarities between your use of language and the language in Sajin's alleged first PM?

@Sajin:

Was that or was that not the first PM you sent Falko?

[halflight007]

@ Sajin and Falko:

Thank you. That answer will satisfy me, for now, at least.

I should also bring up that since we're pretty near the end of the first weekend, we should start keeping an eye on those who lurk excessively, as well. Timeater, if you're taking the time to catch up, I expect a very good writeup and analysis on Tuesday, at the latest. killa seven, same thing goes for you. Everyone else has posted.

Once this weekend ends, you will have no excuse not to do this.

[halflight007]

Instead of trying to understand Falko (Like me and Ice), people try to read scum tells into what he's painfully trying to say. It's like hitting a disabled person, because he's the easiest target.

That's the thing, though. I gave Falko the benefit of the doubt before. And then it got thrown off by the transcript of his dialogue with Sajin. Not because of how he typed, but because the typing in Sajin's message seemed to correspond more with Falko's writing style than Sajin's.

Since Sajin's affirmed that it was him who sent that PM, I really can't pursue the case any farther, at least for now. That said, it doesn't mean I'm going to let my guard down. I intend to think this over, observe them, and see if any of my theories have credence. I don't know if they do, but right now, I, at least, cannot afford to be sloppy.

That's why I'm turning my gaze to the lurkers now. Refocusing both prevents tunneling and will maybe help me gain a fresher look on this when I come back to it.

[halflight007]

I'm not suspecting of you, I think that you are going deeper in a non existent enviroment. but I have to accept the fact that my grammar can be confusing for some of you.

But, no matter how much I suck trying to speak english, it seems like Iecerint got the intention of my messages, so, I think that with just one of you getting, I can go on

. Excuse me again for that.

That's funny. Why would you want only Iecerint to understand your messages? See, if it were me, I'd want

everyone

to be crystal clear on what I was saying, not just one person. Because saying that "you can go on" with just one person understanding it makes you look scummy - and it makes the person interpreting look a bit like a scumbuddy.

I understand what you're saying just fine - I've read enough badly-written fanfiction and forum posts in my life to decipher what people are trying to say, and If you'll recall, I defended you against Sajin and SSK when both of them voted for you. It was the fact that the post that Sajin sent you had the distinct flavor of your writing style that caught my eye.

I'm willing to let the issue of the PM go now, since Sajin has claimed that's the PM he sent you. I have nothing to counter that with right now. But this, this I do not understand. If I were a non-native speaker of English playing Mafia, I'd want to run whatever I wrote down in a word processor or spellchecker of some sort, or take Ash up on his offer to help you translate, so that EVERYONE could understand what I was saying - not just have to take one person's word for it.

[halflight007]

Again, you are misunderstood me.

I'm not saying that the ideal scenario is that just Iecerint can understand me. For instance, I can write in spanish and Y can traslate to the rest of you. that's not the idea. The ideal scenario is that I could write quite good that can be understandable for all of you.

Then do you have a word processor of some type at home? Or a translator that you could use, to run through before you post? Because people clearly aren't understanding what you're trying to say, if you truly are innocent.

I apologize for all the misundertood due my grammar, but I was pointed that, at least one of all of you has taking my word in the right sense. I know that you, and Y has doing an effort to understand me, I really appreciate that, and eventually you, or even ash has putting question about what I was writen, and I think that I've been willing to be clear, to clarify all doubts of my behaviour along the game. But, you can see my frustration when, instead build a case, or recognize things clearer, the people are still voting for me, and now I have 4 votes instead 2.

If that's the case, then you need to analyze your own actions. Read back over your own posts, and that of what people have been saying. Analyze them in tandem, and figure out what it is you need to do. That's all I feel I can tell you.

I don't even know why I am being accused, if is because I take certain time to answer, or because sajin writen in a "suspicious style".

The wording on that is interesting. Not the saying, but the idea that Sajin wrote in a "suspicious style" as you said. I'm going to have to think about this some more, because I don't think it's quite logical, and not all the other options have been removed yet. Eliminate all other options, and what remains must be the truth.

It's frustrating because, there is obvious scum trying to capitalize my weakness, and towns that, instead of trying to find the reasons, are judging the shape.

Okay, let me make one thing clear. I'm not trying to peg you as scum. I'm trying to find the truth. Right now, the game hasn't shaped itself enough to draw a conclusion either way - I have to analyze things from both angles. As crunch time draws near, I'll definitely lean one way or another with you. But right now, the game hasn't shaped itself enough. If I just pursue you as if you were scum, if I tunnel in on you right now, that doesn't do me any good.

Besides, our lurkers haven't spoken for some time.

Timeater and killa seven: You have until tomorrow to post your analysis. You've had a lot of time to read up. I expect it to be good.

[halflight007]

I am still voting you because I rarely leave my vote unused. I am still suspicious of SSKs nonchalant hop on your wagon and Zeik to an extent. This day will most likely end with my vote on you or SSK.

Narrowing your vision so early on? Don't forget that we have two lurkers right now, who haven't even posted extensive analysis. and killa was at least nice enough to prod Sajin for us - Timeater hasn't done a single thing.

Right now, I think the most logical decision would be to lay on the pressure for Tim and killa to contribute. If they don't, wouldn't it be a more logical choice to lynch one of them? I guess what I'm saying is, why are you focusing on Falko and MafiaSSK so soon?

[halflight007]

'm not scum hunting harshly, but In my previous posts it's clear that I'm not satify with the fact that Sajin knows the correpondence between you and me before the start of the game, , and his is not your neighbour and doesn't exist a reliable explanation to that. If he flips scum eventually, you would be my top suspect.

Wait what does this mean?

If I'm reading this right, it means that he thought Sajin knew about you and Falko's speaking during the beginning, since he's not your neighbor.

...Which really does not make sense to me, either, as Sajin simply said that he thought Falko was merely communicating with

scum

, but he never specified who that scum was. It should have been common sense to him that you could communicate with Falko, ergo, he was stating that Falko was speaking with someone

not

his neighbor.

@Sajin:

Is my reasoning right? Or do you suspect SSK of being scum?

[halflight007]

Due to conversations had pre game there is a high chance my neighbor is scum.

He was talking to other people

yet asked me how I was able to talk to him. I told him I searched his name up with the search function and got the pm link from his profile. Only then was his other neighbor contacted likely. Therefore the person/people he was talking to are likely scum. Thanks for the slip.

vote falcomagno

Sajin's firs post in the game.

But the emphasis you put on that one part is what I'm having trouble with. Did Falko just write it in a way that made him just

sound

like he was communicating with others, or was he actually communicating with others? Or does he legitimately think that MafiaSSK is scum, and that's what he was talking about?

[halflight007]

@halflight: I kind of am partially narrowing my vision. With the Sajin / Falko / SSK exchange I think there is a good likelihood of scum being involved. The lurking is a worry but I'd probably be more inclined to lynch on the info instead of the lack of info in this case.

Wouldn't it make more sense to back off of this and put pressure on the lurkers? We're not going to be able to make an informed decision without all the information possible. If there is a lack of info, it is our duty to try to fill it.

Maybe it's just me, but every townie is valuable. Even on D1. If I'm going to vote, there must be no doubt in my mind that the person is scum. And right now, with 2+ lurkers, that doubt remains.

[halflight007]

All right, enough is enough. Lurkers, you have had plenty of time to respond, and plenty of material to work with. You have not. Ergo:

FoS: Timeater and killa seven

If you happen to post some analysis, it better be pretty darn good.

Siroginous has not been included because he is being replaced, and ZONEACE has commented already. For now, I will trust him to follow through on his promise to comment.

[halflight007]

But the emphasis you put on that one part is what I'm having trouble with. Did Falko just write it in a way that made him just

sound

like he was communicating with others, or was he actually communicating with others? Or does he legitimately think that MafiaSSK is scum, and that's what he was talking about?

While Falko was actually talking with SSK at the same time, Sajin had no way of knowing so only by reading Falko's PMs (Unless I missed something when I checked and double-checked it, Falko never mentioned nor insinuated that he was talking to some one else). So, how did Sajin know, if he wasn't told so by some one else? I see no other way but being told by SSK, who isn't his neighbor.

@Both-

I am suspicious of his talking to someone else other than SSK. I fail to see how his claiming of he was talking to SSK clears him of not talking to scum. There is a hole in that logic.

Because he evidently was talking to SSK made one of the three of us a liar by way of the first PM I quoted. Falko backtracked AFTER that statement by saying he was talking to SSK but did not know he was his neighbor.

I am doubtful that MafiaSSK and Falko share the same alignment based on how the PM information was released. Therefore because I suspect Falko of being scum I suspect MafiaSSK of being town.

I'm going to go back, read the thread again, and pay attention to the texts. Though as to the fact that Falko didn't know SSK was his neighbor - there were apparently a lot of people who either didn't read the thread thoroughly, because a lot of the players didn't contact their neighbors the night before. Maybe this was the case with Falko?

...I'm going to have to read the thread over again, like I said. I was just thinking of the PM trees earlier. There was something funny about them - I just can't remember what.

[halflight007]

I'm going to go back, read the thread again, and pay attention to the texts. Though as to the fact that Falko didn't know SSK was his neighbor - there were apparently a lot of people who either didn't read the thread thoroughly, because a lot of the players didn't contact their neighbors the night before. Maybe this was the case with Falko?

How could you not read the thread?[/quote]I'm talking about people not reading the rules and setting in the pre-game thread, while everyone was confirming their roles. I remember Ash, at least, being puzzled that you could speak with neighbors on Night 0. He didn't know that. I think there might have been others.

I've been reading the thread multiple times, as well as checking several times a day. I have been reading. But I want to exhaust every option before I bandwagon and vote for either Falko, you, or Sajin. That's why I'm going to look back tomorrow, when I'm a bit less tired and a lot more alert. I'll be able to follow the flow of the argument better that way.

[halflight007]

OK first of all, I didn't cntact anyone because I can't trust anyone. I'm not about to start talking to people pregame that I have no clue about. Both of them might be mafia.

Which...would completely negate the point of the theme in the first place, would it not?

I question the common sense of any player that used the pregame to communicate with another player. Have you never played this game before? Limiting the amount of information the mafia has about the town is generally A GOOD IDEA.

So stop speculating on the nature of the game and who might have what alignments and

scumhunt

. This post? Could have been entirely devoted to asking the people who took the initiative

why

they did so, and perhaps analyzing their motives for doing so. Instead, you took the opportunity to speculate on the layout and positioning of mafia in the game. Why is that?

Incidentally, there's a very good reason to speak with neighbors at night. I've given you a very good hint as to what that reason is; I think you're smart enough to figure it out.

[halflight007]

I didn't speculate on anything, i held firm in my suspicion of everyone.

so stop lying.

Really? Then how am I supposed to interpret this:

I'm not about to start talking to people pregame that I have no clue about.

Both of them might be mafia.

That doesn't sound like scumhunting to me. That sounds like IIoA. You're talking about the layout of the town rather than poking around for scumtells on your neighbors and seeing if they're actually scum.

And even if they are Mafia, how are you going to know unless you communicate and watch their PMs for slips, as Sajin alleges he did with Falko? If you're town, you should have nothing to hide, and not talking makes it sound like you do. Information is more important to the town on Day 1 than being tight-lipped.

I made good use of my Night 0 PMs so that I'd be free to scumhunt today, rather than make posts wondering where scum are positioned on the clock.

[halflight007]

i specificallly mentioned both of them CAUSE THEY WERE THE ONLY TWO I COULD HAVE TALKED TO LAST NIGHT and as I said, i held firm in my suspicion of everyone.

Hence, you were speculating on whether your partners were scum...rather than scumhunting and affirming your suspicions. Instead, you chose to play this like a regular game - which it's clearly not. So instead of taking advantage of the chance to gather info, you chose not to, and now you're looking pretty bad for it.

What are you trying to hide, ZONE?

god are you people that fucking stupid that you don't understand the words I'm using?

I'm not the one throwing cusswords and insults around instead of responding in a rational, calm manner to any and all accusations from scumhunters. I could have sworn you guys had a name for that particular scumtell...

FoS: ZONEACE.

If he's town, he's sure as hell not acting like it.

[halflight007]

1. halflight, I would appreciate it if you would respond to the quotes in my previous post. Also, please refrain from implying unequal knowledge of the set-up. I believe that it is anti-town.

I'll go back and try to find the quotes you're asking me about, since I have to do that for something about ZONE, anyway, but I'd like to respond to something first:

I don't know anything more or less about the setup than you do. But honestly, I believe that because we had the opportunity to contact neighbors during the night, there should be no reason whatsoever for people to be wondering if the people next to them or not are mafia, or where people are positioned at all. If you had the chance to talk to others last night, I really think that's when you should have done any and all of your IIoA and gameplay speculation. That way, you'd have possible layouts and positions in your head, and you'd be free to scumhunt instead of wonder about it in-thread.

That's what I did Night 0. I used

that

time to bounce ideas on Mafia positions off my neighbors so that I could concentrate on behaviors on Day 1.

[halflight007]

^ To clarify, are those "you"s directed specifically at me, or are you using them impersonally?

I was responding to a question you asked me. So yes, they were referring to you, Iece, but the message in them can be directed to anybody.

[halflight007]

Iece, I'm still getting caught up with the quotes, and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. If you'd like me to respond sooner, could you re-quote the info you wanted me to see?

Anyway...just went back and looked over ZONE's play, and there's something that bothers me. Not so much about his roleclaim, but about his play.

When asked why he didn't contact Zeik, ZONE replied like this:

@ZONEACE:

Why didn't you contact me about being neighbors?

Why didn't you contact me?

ZONE did not give Zeik a very clear or defined answer. Instead, he chose to answer Zeik's question with another question - maybe an attempt to steer the topic in another direction. Maybe to scumhunt. Maybe to shield himself.

I don't know. But he's not giving a clear, direct answer.

Then, we get this.

Not liking ZONE clamming up. He has a point, but your reason for not contacting might be different than his. He asked first so you should answer first.

if he had a reason for not contacting me then he shoudl come out with it.

My point standsd that he finds me suspicious for not contacting him when at the same time he didn't contact me. So if I'm suspicious, so IS HE. ANd his trying to force suspicion onto me for doing the same thing he did is not only hypocritical, it can be a scumtell.

Again, avoiding the question instead of answering the question. I can't imagine why a townie would want to avoid answering it. Okay, so you're both suspicious. Fine. Why don't you just answer the question and rid yourself of said suspicion - unless you actually have something to hide?

Then, several pages later, we get THIS out of the blue.

OK first of all, I didn't cntact anyone because I can't trust anyone. I'm not about to start talking to people pregame that I have no clue about. Both of them might be mafia. Until i get a read I won't talk to them, so its possible I wont contact them tonight. If you have a problem with that, I don't care.

I question the common sense of any player that used the pregame to communicate with another player. Have you never played this game before? Limiting the amount of information the mafia has about the town is generally A GOOD IDEA.

Finally, we get a clear answer as to why he didn't initiate contact. Fine. I consider it a bit misguided (why not just sign up for a regular game?), but I can understand it. What I CAN'T understand is why he didn't say this earlier.

I don't think I have to point out the humongous amount of OMGUS and shit-flipping that he did when I questioned his motives. And then there's the claim.

I won't vote right now. I probably won't vote until we're down to the wire, or until I'm certain I've got scum. But the claim? I'm not sure I buy it. My first game, a guy I had pegged as scum made a doctor claim, causing everyone to unvote him and vote for a townie. I got killed as a result of that - and then I realized that I'd been right all along.

I've seen games where people have made claims that are true. Heck, I'm sure falseclaims are much rarer. But you know what, I don't buy the whole "claiming to save your ass" thing. If you have a pro-town role, your best bet is to play as if you're a vanilla townie. If you play well, you'll have no reason to need to claim, and you might survive to a point where we need you.

Hence, ZONE must forgive me if I'm suspicious of him for a tad longer. If he's town, he should have no problem with this - because he knows he's innocent, and that his case and evidence will be disproven as the game goes on and the real scum show their faces. Is that reasonable?
___

Iecerint, the reason I made that post the way I did is because I do not like broadcasting my strategies out in the open. Not only is that IIoA, it's also a good way for scum to take my theories and manipulate them into an argument that works in their favor.

If you'd like to see my correspondence with SSK, I'll post it - it has a lot of the theory and reasoning I'm using in my mind to scumhunt. I've nothing to hide.

[halflight007]

Ah, I see. Thank you, Iece.

Basically, my reasoning at that point was that Falko and Sajin had some sort of connection that they were hiding via sniping at one another. I'm not sure why I thought that, and in retrospect, I don't think it's that plausible anymore, because it's too WIFOM. And when I realized I was adding the words "elaborate gambit" to the argument, I pretty much recognized at this point that Sajin and Falk were unlikely scumbuddies. I just didn't want to discard the possibility too early - Sherlock didn't, and I didn't think it was a good idea, either.

Does that answer your question?
___

As for the MafiaSSK and ZONE issue:

...I'm not sure whether they're both acting like children, if they have issues I don't know about out of game, or if one of them is scum. I don't, however, like the fact that SSK is asking for "recent games." Other players may buy it as proof. I, personally, do not accept meta from other games as argument unless it meets specific circumstances, because I treat each game as an independent event; one game does not have impact on another, IMO. Human behavior is too variable for that.

[halflight007]

SEARCH MY FUCKING NAME I ALREADY TOLD YOU I'VE BEEN OFFSITE FOR 3 MONTHS AND THIS IS MY FIRST GAME BACK


god damn, what the hell is wrong with you people.

if you want to get a meta on me, you're gonna have to do it yourself.

Sorry, like I said, I don't accept meta as evidence. I'm basing my suspicion of you off of your actions so far in this game. I really don't care if OMGUS, short posts, and antagonism are your regular play style or not. That's the way you're playing in this game, and it's setting off alarm bells in my head.

[halflight007]

IF I DO IT IN EVERY GAME ITS A NULL FUCKING TELL SO THATS HOW ITS STUPID.


ALSO, anger, not a scum tell, only stupid people think that.

I'm not saying you're angry, I'm saying you're throwing out a crapton of OMGUS and Ad Hominem, both of which are scumtells, instead of, you know, analyzing posts and what people say, as I did with you, and as I have done with others.

I'm not saying I agree with what MafiaSSK was trying to do. SSK actually told me in his PM that you'd try to policy-lynch him, and from what I gather, you're not on the best of terms. Don't care. I'm not fixated on you because of what SSK's doing, I'm focusing on you because you made one answer before regarding the PMs, then gave a completely different one later, when you should have been upfront in the first place about why you didn't want to do night PMs.

@Furry

Meant to address this earlier, but, um,

why are you broadcasting the name of people you think are town

? It looks scummy, and if you're not scum, you're giving the Mafia ideas on who to lynch.

I'll do a re-read in the next couple of days and do a top three suspects list.

[halflight007]

I dont even remember who the fuck SSK is? he's nothing to me. The reason i want to lynch him (tomorrow) is he is obv scum.

I will agree that his posts are a bit shorter and less in-depth than I usually like my posts. That said, care to point out the posts where he's allegedly "obv scum?"

The way he has played today has made it obvious. Misleading the town IS BAD PLAY

...Except SSK voted for me

after

I started making my case against you. Am I being misled?

My reason for not PMing people HAS NOT CHANGED

please, show me where its changed.

I'm not saying it changed. If I said it changed, I would have said "First you said A, why are you saying B now?"

I'm wondering why you did not post the "I didn't try to establish contact because I think it's fucking stupid" post in the first place.

[halflight007]

Apologies for not getting back to you guys. Had a busy few days, but I promise to have a top-three list sometime this afternoon.

That said, though, I'm glad that Iece brought up that first point against Sajin with the rolefishing thing. The "attitude" of one's role - were you trying to ascertain whether they liked their role or not? Because that's one way of interpreting it, I suppose. Maybe it's rolefishing, maybe it's not. It's an odd way to phrase a question, if nothing else. Why would you want to ask someone about what they think of their role?

...Which you won't answer, of course, because you're only going to tell your neighbors why you would ask such a question. But of course, I would assume that you'd only tell them the reason if they asked, right? Which Falko didn't, unless he's hiding something, and K7 isn't posting anything.

Falko and killa seven:

Did Sajin give you a reason as to why he asked you to describe the "attitude of your role?" If so, what was it?

[halflight007]

All right, here's the top three suspects list I promised. I only have 29 minutes, so I'll try to sum up my cases as clearly and quickly as possible and answer any questions about it either tonight or tomorrow.

Note that this is prone to change, and that I'm not going to say anything about what I think about anyone else atm.

1. Falkomagno

- From what I've seen, he could be a genuinely confused non-native speaker of English that is frustrated, and his attempts to rout out scum on the basis that people are twisting what he says could be seen as OMGUS. However, there's a simple way to solve this; make it easier for everyone other than a few people to understand where he's coming from, either by taking up on the translating offer or running his posts through a word processor. That way, everything would become crystal-clear, and the scum wouldn't be able to manipulate his naivete against him. Why is he not doing this?

2. ZONEACE

- Obviously, I have problems with his repeated use of OMGUS and Ad Hom to try and negate my points against him instead of responding in a calm, rational matter to my alleged "stupidity." True, it could be his meta. Regardless, he's going to have to find something a lot more solid than meta to justify his "null tell" to me. That said, he's not at the top of my list.

1. killa seven

- K7 is posting just enough to stay in the game, but he's only responding to allegations against him instead of actively scumhunting and analyzing. This strikes me as suspect. If he's town, why is he sitting back and making us do all the work?
___

As I've said before, I loathe the idea of lynching town, even on Day 1, because we need every body we can get. That said, if it has to be town, I'd rather it be patently unhelpful town, which is why ZONE's not #1 on my list right now.

[halflight007]

2. ZONEACE

- Obviously, I have problems with his repeated use of OMGUS and Ad Hom to try and negate my points against him instead of responding in a calm, rational matter to my alleged "stupidity." True, it could be his meta. Regardless, he's going to have to find something a lot more solid than meta to justify his "null tell" to me. That said, he's not at the top of my list.

you're an idiot.


you have no points against me.

so STFUAGDIAFFFBODAPYUFTCPOS

And I think you're an asshole, but you don't see me using it to discredit your arguments, do you?

Also, I know we have a substantial chance of lynching town instead of mafia on D1. That said, why even scumhunt in the first place?

Iece, my belief in ZONE is not so much his roleclaim as it is that he's posting some content, though I'd like to see him make more arguments against Sajin if that's who he thinks is scum.

[halflight007]

Sorry, hit a wrong button on the keyboard before I could change something.

ZONE, even if we have a worse chance of lynching town than scum on D1, I'd rather we nail scum. Town is too valuable to me - every townie killed is one step towards a mafia victory. That said, I know the chance is slim - we lynched town on D1, one that I voted for even though I knew who the scum was to prevent a NL (though my NK did help them catch the scum).

Even if it's a slim chance, though, it's one I have to take.

i didnt even know there was any 'allegations" against me, i have answered the questions asked of me.

Answering questions and staying under the radar does not a townie make. Just because you don't have a case against you does not mean you're town.

I may not like ZONE, but he at least posts content, and he's claimed a power role. I will always side with an active townie, even if they're not someone I personally like. What have you done for the town, K7?

[halflight007]

1. Falkomagno

- From what I've seen, he could be a genuinely confused non-native speaker of English that is frustrated, and his attempts to rout out scum on the basis that people are twisting what he says could be seen as OMGUS. However, there's a simple way to solve this; make it easier for everyone other than a few people to understand where he's coming from, either by taking up on the translating offer or running his posts through a word processor. That way, everything would become crystal-clear, and the scum wouldn't be able to manipulate his naivete against him. Why is he not doing this?

I actually feel an improvement with falko's posts.

About the time gap between getting the PMs and answering them, I can understand falko. As a non-native English speaker (I speak Hebrew), it takes me more time to write than to read. If I have no time and I see a PM, I check it, but I don't waste the time on answering it. I do it later when I do have the time. I believe falko did the same.

I actually do the same thing, Y. I may not answer something right away, either because I'm thinking it over or because I might not have time. That wasn't what I had a problem with.

If you think Falko's improved, I will go back and take a look at his posts either later tonight or Sat., when I have time.

[halflight007]

You mean, why I’m not using a traslating offer?? I'm going to put you and example.

Well, in fact I used a translator to help me sometimes, but it's about
concentration, because the literally translation can gimme something like

"I want people to understand once and for all that the case against is that the collared peccary could not know that I was talking to SKK ask when contacted as neighbors, unless they have the communication and SKK simultaneously while talking to me. PM me for any of collared peccary can infer that I was talking with someone. " Collared peccary knew and that is totally suspect"

when I want to say that:

I want you to understand once for all that one of the reasons to vote for Sajin is because he couldn’t possible know that I was talking with SKK at the moment I asked him how contact neighbors, at least if SKK and Sajin would had communication simultaneously meanwhile they was talking with me. From No PM from me to Sajin can infer that I was talking with “somebody”. Sajin knew it and this is totally suspicious

You got my point?

I think what you're trying to say, if I'm reading this correctly, is that a literal web translator would get some words wrong. And I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is that you should run it through a Word Processor - sometimes you miss particles of English, and your sentences and ideas tend to run together. Would putting it through a spell/grammar check solve all the problems? No. But I think it would look a little bit clearer, and I, at least, would have an easier time following your train of thought.

Also, regarding your recent accusation of ZONE; it's all well and good if you suspect him of being mafia. But what proof, other than what has already been mentioned and what I have proposed, do you have that he's scum? I mean, first you were pushing the case on Sajin pretty hard - why would you abandon it?

@ Furry:

From a cursory glance at your posts, I like some of your trains of thought. That said, PLEASE STOP POSTING WHO YOU THINK IS TOWN, especially "obvtown." It might give the Mafia lynch ideas.

[halflight007]

Scum get more jumpy when you start calling people (not them) town. If it becomes a truth instead of a theory to the town, then thats someone that they are not able to get lynched.

Still doesn't excuse the fact that by saying that ZONE is "obvtown", you're putting him at greater risk for an NK. Especially if everyone agrees with you.

In regards to gameplay meta, I got NKed on N1 in my first game because everyone was stupid enough (me included, I'll admit) to post what they thought of EVERYONE in the game. I was the one player everyone said was pro-town, and I got killed for it.

There is a reason that I am going after perceived scumtells and questioning everyone, rather than just saying outright who I think is town and scum, and that is because the less information scum has, the better. At this point, the town does not need to know who town is. They need a consensus on who they think is scum.

[halflight007]

Welcome to the game, SuperBridge. Nice to be playing with you. that said, something about your first post:

I notice that you, too, have a tendency to announce who is scum and who is town in your opinion. My question is, why did you take all that time to list who you think the scum are, if you only gave really definitive terms for why you were voting for one of them? Could you have sacrificed your opinions on the townies (and maybe the neutrals) to elaborate on reasons why you pegged certain players as scum?

Example:

MafiaSSK is rubbing me up the wrong way but I can't tell if that's a scum tell or just... they're rubbing me up the wrong way. On the other hand, I just noticed wall-of-quotes with little content, which is anti-town. For various reasons, I would peg them as the second scum (I'm assuming two scum), over Zeikhunter. (Scum.)

What is scummy about MafiaSSK? What about him is "rubbing you the wrong way?"

Also, apologies for the IIoA: Assuming the usual ratio of 1 scum to every 3 town, we should be dealing with 3 scum here. So post top fours instead of threes - three scum, one neutral/townie-leaning.